=== geser [i=mb@ubuntu/member/geser] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ionstorm [n=ion@71-35-73-85.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === johnc4510 [n=johnc451@ip68-231-139-203.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === amaroOliveira [n=amaroOli@87-196-43-239.net.novis.pt] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sistpoty [n=sistpoty@ubuntu/member/sistpoty] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:09] hi [02:09] hi [02:09] Hi === TheMuso [n=luke@ubuntu/member/themuso] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:09] not many here today [02:09] eeek === TheMuso will do minutes/announcements [02:10] Got so wrapped up in my own work. [02:10] sorry for being late [02:10] I haven't missed anything I hope [02:10] TheMuso: iff we have something to talk about [02:10] sistpoty: you were first to speak up ;) [02:10] TheMuso: you only missed some people saying hi [02:10] heh right. [02:10] ajmitch: but I'm drunk already, so I don't count ;) [02:10] hasn't even started yet :) [02:11] Well, my offer for minutes/announcements stands. [02:11] haha [02:11] (nvidia stuff gave me the rest, couldn't do this w.o. booze *g*) === amaroOliveira [n=amaroOli@87-196-43-239.net.novis.pt] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [02:12] heh [02:12] agenda page just has motu sru process [02:13] Who added it? [02:13] no info [02:14] So I can now see. [02:14] ah, blame superm1 [02:14] Well no point talking about it if there aren't many here, as it does affect a lot of us, and if the original person who proposed it can't explain it, well theres no point... [02:14] well i'm here [02:14] ok, subsection two: motu-sru still needed: being (still) a member, this was abandoned quite some time ago. [02:14] just lots of latency [02:15] so motu-sru is neither needed, nor should be assigned/subscribed any bugs to [02:15] I personally think we need more MOTUs at the meeting before this goes under the knife again. [02:16] well the big thing i wanted to discuss with it was the role of archive admins [02:16] is there still some documentation left refering to motu-sru? [02:16] becuase they have no idea what needs to be done === DktrKranz [n=Luca@ubuntu/member/dktrkranz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:17] superm1: do you think SRU's have got out of control? [02:17] (as I'm not knowing anything about how much, nor how SRUs are done nowadays) [02:18] sistpoty, not that they got out of control, but i had to file one for mythtv for edgy and feisty just last week [02:18] and ended up having lots of troubles [02:18] because people i discussed it with were confused by the process [02:18] both Ridell and seb128 weren't positive about their role === merriam [n=merriam@85-211-20-34.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:19] ok, knowing still knowing about the discussion around the new policy, maybe I should explain: [02:20] since SRUs came with some delay (from -sru and from -archive) for hitting -proposed and later -updates, we decided to lower the barrier to -proposed [02:21] also we decided that any motu could upload directly to -proposed (which -archive should intervene only if the version number was flawed, because removing from -proposed wasn't implemented in LP yet) [02:22] so then they really have no say other than version number [02:22] and its up to a MOTU to decide if it should really be going into -proposed [02:22] yes. to keep the barrier to -proposed as simple as possible [02:23] yes, they should only check if the version is sane to be copied later to -updates [02:23] however to get a package into -updates, the testing (as still described in the SRU page iirc) needs to be done. [02:23] now its not clear whether the acks need to be MOTUs, or just general users testing -proposed count too then [02:23] any ack countes [02:24] -e [02:24] okay that makes it a lot easier [02:24] the min 7 day barrier to -updates, that's off the latest upload, or if there was a small fix to a proposed update, from the first upload [02:24] getting that many motus to ack was too hard [02:25] yea that's what i was realizing [02:25] superm1: off the latest upload. Because this period is meant that the exact packages to end up in -updates later should get tested [02:26] okay. [02:27] however, the archive team will still do a sanity check for the proposed->updates migration (they did this anyways w. or w.o. -sru in the past). So finally they can decide on wether an update is fit for -updates or not [02:27] now when its copied to -updates, can archive admins knock the ~proposed1 off an upload version number, or should it be the exact version number intended for -updates later? [02:28] that's a good question, since syncing a package from one pocket to another is possible now. anyone got a clue? [02:29] I think it's meant to have the version without ~proposed1 [02:29] but I may be wrong [02:29] since that wouldn't allow multiple testing uploads [02:29] ajmitch: but that would affect the upload to -proposed already? [02:30] keescook had thought that perhaps appending a .1 like security updates would be a safer way to go [02:30] that way more updates can be popped in [02:30] you upload to -proposed with the version which will end in -updates [02:30] without needing to add stuff like ~proposedX [02:31] exactly, -0ubuntu1.1 as version and uploaded to -proposed [02:31] might this clash with possible security update versions? [02:32] shouldn't further security updates base on the -updates packages? [02:32] not necessarily [02:32] and assuminingly the SRU would be based off security updates if they are out? [02:32] it wouldn't be good if bugs come back because of a security issue === catfacts [n=catfacts@cpe-75-179-35-70.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:34] IMHO a package uploaded to -security or -updates should have all the previous changes from -security or -updates [02:34] hm.. likewise it might be bad if a security update would fix also (lesser important) stuff and thus have a higher risk to break stuff [02:35] isn't -updates activated by default, so people already have fixes === sanguinarius [n=sanguina@AMontsouris-152-1-12-147.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:36] not for universe (is security for universe enabled by default?) [02:36] at least iirc [02:36] it would be bad to prepare a new SRU for every security update because the changes from -updates got lost === alex-weej [n=alex@cpc2-darl3-0-0-cust237.midd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:36] right [02:37] how about holding this particular item back and waiting for a clarification from the security team? [02:37] well it would be bad too though if you have to decide between a new feature or issue in the SRU or a security resolution in the security update [02:37] oi! [02:37] nixternal! [02:37] hey nixternal [02:37] wasabi you funky MOTUs [02:38] oh, dholbacks first day on the job and he is hiding :p === sistpoty looks innocent [02:38] hehe [02:39] sistpoty yea i think thats a good idea [02:39] however, back to business [02:39] we can bring that discussion on to -devel mailing list probably [02:39] ok, anyone who wants to mail pitti/keescook for a clarification and report back to the motu ml? [02:39] superm1: or that [02:39] superm1: would you tackle that? [02:40] sistpoty sure, i'll shoot a mail out tomorrow for it [02:40] great, thanks! [02:40] ok, what else of the SRU policy needs discussion? [02:41] well the motu-sru team [02:41] do we need them still? [02:41] no, and it's been gone for awhile [02:42] k easy enough. Now when its ready to go to -updates, should we just ping an archive admin, or more specifically what would that process be then? === nixternal hopes that this will all eventually be documented nicely on the wiki [02:43] when you have the needed testing done, add a commen stating it and subscribe u-a [02:43] ok. === sistpoty just left -sru, after finding the link :) [02:43] and add the verfication-done tag (or similar) [02:44] well i think thats it then for the SRU process, everything I found on it to be confused is resolved here [02:44] Ok... SO what has been changed/clarrified [02:45] no more -sru team, upload only to -proposed, testing as in wiki, after testing done add tag and subscribe -archive again (no more uploading). anything else? [02:45] 1) no more motu-sru team [02:45] sorry ;) [02:46] 2) archive admins don't check *anything* more than version when going to -proposed [02:46] 3) subscribe -archive, and then they can do more throughout checks [02:46] 4) version numbers shouldn't have ~proposed1, but we still need to check about conflicting security updates [02:46] 5) any person can comment that "works for them" not just motu [02:47] And I am guessing someone will update wiki docs? [02:47] 6) +1's have to be from latest upload, and the 7 day ticker starts over [02:47] TheMuso, if you send this out in minutes, i can update the wiki tomorrow when i get home === nixternal points at MootBot -> we should be using this to track this meeting [02:47] superm1: Ok. [02:47] thanks a lot superm1! [02:47] nixternal: too technical for us [02:47] lol [02:47] great, any further business? [02:47] #startmeeting [02:47] Meeting started at 00:38. The chair is nixternal. [02:47] Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] [02:48] Q&A/hug days? [02:48] Yeah. What can we do to get more people to metings. [02:48] #endmeeting [02:48] Meeting finished at 00:38. [02:48] how hard is that? [02:48] TheMuso: I would have thought that more people from .au would have been awake [02:48] ajmitch: They are, but people don't always sit on the comp first thing in the morning. :) [02:48] Mind you, it is wet in this part of Au. [02:48] nixternal: for someone who is not enlighted, it's like asking ubotu aboute UVFE and then in plain text again ;) [02:49] it started at 10am for you! that's not first thing :) [02:49] lol === Fujitsu pokes his head in, and notes he forgot, because the last reminder was some 8 days ago. [02:49] Fujitsu: Well how soon should the second reminder be? [02:49] ...or maybe a third is needed. [02:50] It was 5 days after the announcement this time. It should probably at least be closer to the day than announcement. [02:50] ok. [02:50] But I've no idea how far before it should actually be. === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508DBB99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:51] but its been at various times in the pats, yet we still don't get a lot of regular attendees to the meetings. [02:51] noone cares enough [02:51] ajmitch: How can we change that? === sistpoty must admit that sistpoty was only there occasionally [02:51] probably because we often don't have much to talk about [02:52] maybe we should give out karma to those that show up :) === tck [n=tck@212.2.167.66] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:52] maybe explicitely invite hopefuls as well? === catfacts [n=catfacts@cpe-75-179-35-70.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:52] I dunno... But I wonder if we can't still do something to get more people here... [02:52] sistpoty: Thats what I was thinking. [02:53] and maybe have new hopefuls introduce themselves during meeting time, to make them feeling more rooted in the motu world [02:53] (which of course might take precious discussion time= [02:53] TheMuso: is the time ok for those in .au/.nz or should it be moved further into the .au day? [02:53] But if we have little to talk about... [02:54] geser: I can't comment on that, as I'm usually always here on Sat mornings anyway. [02:54] So I am somewhat different from the norm. [02:54] TheMuso: right, I wanted to quote precious actually, but fingers were faster than brain [02:54] heh [02:54] my impression is that meetings on 12:00 UTC are more visited than those at 0:00 UTC [02:55] geser: Right. [02:55] would perhaps an other time rotation scheme work better? [02:56] geser: Thats the thing. This scheme works for those who attend, which means its always at similar times. [02:56] what's the current scheme? +/- 12? [02:56] With more people attending, we can get a wider view of what suits people. [02:56] sistpoty: Yes, on Fridays. [02:56] WHich I wonder if people would rather it be another day. [02:56] sistpoty: yes, 12 UTC and 0 UTC [02:57] maybe a rotation based on +/(-) 8 would be better? not too sure though [02:58] sistpoty: 12UTC +/- 8 or 0 UTC +/- 8? [02:58] Well as I said, we need others to attend, otherwise the usuals get to set the time to something that suits them. [02:58] geser: no preference really. was just a stupid idea [02:59] Does anybody think a topic on the ml about this is worth trying? [02:59] I'd be happy to post it. [02:59] TheMuso: not too sure if conclusions will result from it, but I'd definitely think its worth trying. [03:00] let's try it, it can't get much worser with attendings [03:00] Ok, will do that later today. [03:01] So, I guess we get onto our fixed topics... [03:01] Unless anybody else has something to say/other business... [03:01] could I ask you something about sru process? [03:02] DktrKranz: sure, just go ahead [03:02] DktrKranz: ask [03:02] thanks [03:02] how sponsors manage sru requests? sometimes it's hard to verify them [03:03] either they don't have requisites to verify or simply they don't have a specific version [03:03] sometimes a request lies in the queue for a long time, proably because of that [03:04] is there any plan/discussion to improve the process? [03:05] hm... to anyone who sponsors packages, where do you think is the difficulty in sponsoring SRUs and how could this be improved? [03:05] damn, from MC I'm so used to ask questions *g* [03:05] you do it so well ;) [03:05] thx [03:06] thought of a career in journalism? :) === ajmitch hasn't been sponsoring lately, so can't really answer this one [03:06] not really, I'm quite good at coding unfortunately ;) [03:07] hm... how long is the sponsoring queue nowadays actually? [03:07] I wouldn't be confident to sponsor a SRU I couldn't check or where I'm not sure if the patch is correct (when I can't check it) [03:07] I still think a lot of MOTUs are uncomfortable with SRUs, and I'm not affraid to admit I'm one of them. [03:08] I've done several SRUs, but only where I have been involved from the start [03:08] I don't know how many MOTUs changed already to gutsy which makes SRU checking a little bit harder [03:10] Mind you, once the SRU stuff discussed earlier is documented, I'll be more enclined to help with them. === catfacts [n=catfacts@cpe-75-179-35-70.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === puttputt [n=james@125-236-128-163.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [03:12] do you think a separate SRU-sponsoring team would help? === catfacts [n=catfacts@cpe-75-179-35-70.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Fujitsu recalls the good old days of about a year ago, when he was trying to perform a SRU, but there was no policy. [03:13] sistpoty: No, I just think we really need to ensure we are all comfortable with the procedure. [03:13] I certainly am willing to help once I know what I'm doing. [03:14] right, good point [03:16] actually I was thinking of transferring responsibility to contributors. This means a SRU-sponsorship team would only need to look at diffs and give thumbs up/down. However if s.th. goes wrong the team would need to make sure that it will fire up an update ASAP. But I guess that's nothing but what motu-sru was for MOTUs in the past [03:16] (or rather should have been ;) [03:17] but TheMuso's point still stands [03:17] I think SRUs need to have a MOTU associated, as there is some kind of reliability implicit in MOTUship. MOTUs aren't likely to vanish, whereas contributors regularly do. [03:17] sistpoty IMO anybody can look at a diff and say yay or nay. Its the procedure that people aren't easy with. === bigon [n=bigon@121.245-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:18] Thats why we are so quick to do gutsy work, as there is almost never any red tape. [03:19] Thats how I see it anyway. === Fujitsu agrees with TheMuso. [03:19] right, so let's hope that communicating how the process works will get improvement. We can still discuss it if it doesn't, agreed? ;) [03:19] Agreed. === superm1 agrees [03:20] and now that i understand the process correctly, i'll be glad to work with other contributors that want to get an SRU through [03:20] Yeah, I'l;l be the same once I can digest a doc. :) === DktrKranz believes he will ping superm1 soon :) === johnc4510 [n=johnc451@ip68-231-139-203.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === bigon [n=bigon@121.245-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:23] So... Shall we move onto deciding times for next meeting etc? [03:24] yes, please [03:24] I'll let others decide, as I can generally make them [03:26] Don't chime in all at once... :) [03:26] Two weeks from now? [03:26] sounds good [03:26] 12:00 UTC? === Fujitsu should be there, if he remembers. [03:27] Fujitsu: I'll attempt to do better with the announcements. [03:28] TheMuso: I should have remembered anyway, but that would be good, thanks. [03:29] anybody else speak up now, or twill be set in stone... === Fujitsu engraves it into the stone. [03:31] Fujitsu: Yep, sounds good. [03:31] do universe hug days even happen? [03:31] Unfortunately not, it seems. [03:31] Well, I say we leave it TBA. [03:32] revu is off till next cycle. === imbrandon [n=brandon@ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.imbrandon] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:32] Did dholbach end up holding any more Q&A sessions? [03:32] Or anybody else? [03:33] well there is a MOTU/LP PPA session that will be going on soon [03:33] that should be mentioned [03:33] as soon as the date is determined [03:33] superm1: Will do. Do we have a date/time for that? [03:33] ah ok [03:35] Alrighty... I think we can say this meeting is closed... [03:36] Closed/disintegrated, but yes. [03:36] thanks everyone! [03:36] indeed glad to settle $things, night all === geser moves to bed now, it's nearly 4 am here [03:37] Minutes will hopefully be in the next 24/48 hours. [03:37] Thanks TheMuso. [03:37] np === TheMuso [n=luke@ubuntu/member/themuso] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [03:38] thanks for the answers, see you :) === SpudDogg [n=spuddogg@c-76-109-159-194.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === tck_ [n=tck@213-202-179-104.bas504.dsl.esat.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === astro76 [n=james@unaffiliated/astro76] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === anibal [n=anibal@debian/developer/anibal] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === anibal [n=anibal@debian/developer/anibal] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === robitaille [n=daniel@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Shely [n=Sea@60.20.52.47] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 08 Sep 17:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 10 Sep 19:00 UTC: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team === sanguinarius [n=sanguina@AMontsouris-152-1-12-147.w82-123.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Quitte"] === tck [n=tck@212.2.180.125] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === l_ [n=l_@mix.mmjgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === tehk [n=tehk@c-71-59-90-172.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === l_ [n=l_@mix.mmjgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === robitaille [n=robitail@ubuntu/member/robitaille] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jorgec [n=jorgec@ethos.battleaxe.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508DBB99.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === l_ [n=l_@mix.mmjgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Balkhog [i=Blomroir@gateway/tor/x-5d1157e41e39f141] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:18] @now [06:18] Current time in Etc/UTC: September 08 2007, 04:18:52 - Next meeting: Xubuntu Developers in 12 hours 41 minutes === astro76 [n=james@unaffiliated/astro76] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === astro76 [n=james@unaffiliated/astro76] has joined 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joined #ubuntu-meeting === jono [n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === stgraber [n=stgraber@dakara.stgraber.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === l_ [n=l_@mix.mmjgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === nixternal [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Palintheus|afk is now known as Palintheus === ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip72-211-151-55.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508DBAA8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === elfreiant [n=Bahamut@88.219.199.13] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:43] c quan on ligne [04:43] ???? svp === Balkhog [i=Blomroir@gateway/tor/x-03b35ae93cc3dcd3] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === nixternal [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Meyvn [n=Arjen@84.31.142.240] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:08] @schedule [05:08] Schedule for Etc/UTC: 08 Sep 17:00: Xubuntu Developers | 10 Sep 19:00: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00: Edubuntu | 18 Sep 15:00: Kernel Team === asac_ [n=asac@d112179.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === fdoving [n=frode@ubuntu/member/frode] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === bigon_ [n=bigon@69.219-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === bigon [n=bigon@69.219-201-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Balkhog [i=Blomroir@gateway/tor/x-f5f2b9eb841e6b6f] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === nixternal [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:04] @schedule Paris [06:04] Schedule for Europe/Paris: 08 Sep 19:00: Xubuntu Developers | 10 Sep 21:00: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 17:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 21:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 18 Sep 17:00: Kernel Team === nixternal [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === janimo [n=jani@89.137.96.27] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === nixternal [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === somerville32 [n=Guest@ubuntu/member/somerville32] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:49] Heya === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu Developers | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Sep 19:00 UTC: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team [06:53] somerville32: hey === jeromeg [n=jerome@gra94-2-82-66-142-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:54] jeromeg: hi [06:54] hello [06:55] jeromeg: nice work on bug triaging [06:55] janimo : no problem :) [06:56] janimo: don't forget to thank mr_pouit for all uploads fixing the bugs ;) === Lure [n=lure@s121.ljudmila.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:57] jeromeg: I have talked to him several times alreday. but I meet you for the first time :) [06:57] pleasure [06:57] i won't be so involved in the next few months [06:58] school... [07:00] Once I get things sorted out with my life, I'll be as active as I was pre-hospital. [07:01] ok shall we start? [07:01] is anyone besides Cody and Jerome here for the xubuntu meeting? [07:04] @now [07:04] Current time in Etc/UTC: September 08 2007, 17:04:06 - Current meeting: Xubuntu Developers [07:04] janimo : I might have to go in a few minutes [07:04] somerville32, jeromeg: I guess we'll talk among ourselves [07:04] jeromeg: nooone here regarding teh website [07:04] may I sumerize what I have to say ? [07:04] jeromeg: please do [07:04] ok [07:05] I think that during this release a good improvement has been made, long standing bugs have been fixed [07:05] for example the non translated session quit dialog [07:06] I've noticed with mr_pouit that xfce upstream is very reactive [07:06] particuraly the thunar dev [07:06] often solving crasher bugs in one day [07:06] jeromeg: reactive? you mean you had good collaboration during gutsy with them? [07:06] hi (sorry for being late) [07:06] hi Lionel === catfacts [n=catfacts@cpe-75-179-35-70.neo.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:06] janimo: yep very good I think [07:06] jeromeg: good [07:07] we have been solving crashing bugs in thunar, panel [07:07] very quickly === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Xubuntu Developers | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Sep 19:00 UTC: Screencast Team | 11 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Canonical Desktop Team [07:07] compared with gnome dev for example [07:07] how is the number of new bugs vs the closed ones [07:07] well I think we have closed a lot [07:07] jeromeg: what example can you give of a gnome dev [07:07] jeromeg: that you compare with [07:07] nautilus for example [07:08] they don't even answer [07:08] no so many new bugs [07:08] *not [07:08] second point, but I think it will change now with automatic apport [07:08] probbaly they have a lot of duplicate bug they're among the top apps in gnome bugzilla [07:08] but I am afraid that's because there are very few testers :/ [07:08] there are a lot of non reported bugs [07:09] yep that's what I was going to tell [07:09] just one example : it took 4 tribes release to notice that panels were crashing when you removed one [07:09] are there any fixes in what will be upstream xfce4 4.2.2 that are important to us? [07:10] jeromeg: indeed we have very poor and uncoordonated testiong [07:10] janimo : I must say that a lot of "bug" are resulting of the ton of patches we have [07:10] jeromeg: for instance? [07:10] we diverge too much from upstream [07:11] janimo : for example the mounting features of exo-mount/gnome-mount [07:11] janimo: the most important (xfwm4 & panel bugs with gtk 2.11.6) are already in the packages [07:11] it's a pain in the ass to report bugs to upstream concerning this [07:11] jeromeg: that will stay that way until exo is as good as gnome mount for us [07:11] we never now if it's our fault or upstream's [07:12] jeromeg: well bugs which arespecific to us should not be reported [07:12] but this is the same situataion with gnome ubuntu [07:12] we have very little patches actually [07:12] janimo: yep but you have to notice it before ;) [07:12] jeromeg: do you know any other cases were bugs are caused by our patches? [07:12] janimo : yes but our patches involve a quite big change [07:13] janimo : for example the dialog of quitting session [07:13] was our problem [07:13] but worked like a charm upstream [07:13] jeromeg: what bug does it cause? (I think I knew one but forgot it) [07:13] janimo : translation; but mr_pouit fixed it [07:13] i got to go now sorry [07:14] jeromeg: I wouln;d call missing trasnaltion a serios bug [07:14] jeromeg: so 'ton of patches [07:14] causng many bugs is a bit of a strecth don't you think :) ? [07:15] yep maybe I exagerated [07:15] jeromeg: whe you considr that that patch allows swicth user hibernate suspend and better UI in that dialog [07:15] :) [07:15] just before leaving the other point I wanted to give my opinion on [07:15] similarly gnome-mount is there so we can easily mount non removable drivers and crypted partitions [07:15] and it's linked to what you are saying [07:16] I think that we are moving away from xubuntu [07:16] more and more gnome apps/gnome libs are integrated [07:16] I don't see the point of shipping xubuntu with all ubuntu apps [07:17] maybe it's better now [07:17] but it doesn't help in the inprovement of xfce in general [07:17] jeromeg: not all ubuntu apps but some which make xubuntu easier to use withjout causing it to be too bloated [07:17] janimo : yep but every release more and more are coming [07:18] for example, was it really essential to ship gnome-screensaver [07:18] ? [07:18] jeromeg: currenlty cd burnig and archiving are broken for newbie users on xubuntu [07:18] jeromeg: why do you say that? 'more and more are coming'? [07:18] the main issue for me is using gnome apps when good xfce apps exist... ok for xfburn, it's broken, but for file-roller? [07:18] each change is judged on its own, let's not forsee what is not in the future :) [07:19] janimo : on xubuntu-devel mailing list we can see that I think [07:19] mr_pouit: you said you're not usng xarchiver [07:19] it is set to defayult here [07:19] and I have been annoyed by it a few times [07:19] i think we should help upstream fixing bugs, forward them the bugs [07:19] janimo: yeah, but squeeze seems to be what we seek [07:19] it's UI (not the looks) but the behaviour sucks [07:19] mr_pouit: squeeze is not even beta [07:20] we cannot use things which are not released [07:20] ok got to go [07:20] just said what i wanted to === jmak [i=mak@h66-201-246-168.gtcust.grouptelecom.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:20] file-roller is mature has a good ui (DnD, navigating archive contents, open with app) regular release and repsonsive maintainer [07:20] keep up with the good work [07:20] jeromeg: ok, thak you for coming [07:21] and remember we are xubuntu with an X ;) [07:21] http://squeeze.xfce.org/ <<< why is it called 'release'? [07:21] ciao === somerville32 waves. [07:21] I don't speak of ristretto which is in pre-alpha state :P [07:21] mr_pouit: anything can be called a release :) [07:22] I am pretty sure that (since it was not touched since april) is not finished [07:22] mr_pouit: have you tested squeeze? [07:22] yeah [07:22] no issue [07:22] I just know its author started it with preformance in mind [07:22] mr_pouit: better that xarchiver? [07:23] I see [07:23] I prefer, but that's only my opinion [07:23] I thought Xarchiver was a part of the Xfce4 family. [07:23] somerville32: that is an informal status and has little bearing n the quality of an app [07:24] xarchiver is sort of dm-independent [07:24] mr_pouit: well you should have packaged it bu now :) I thiught squeeze is unmaintained or abandoned [07:24] mr_pouit: why what does squeeze depend on? [07:24] janimo: it's in my ppa, but it's too late for gutsy [07:24] mr_pouit: any disadvantage you see in squeeze? [07:25] some weeks (or months?) ago, its author told us that he didn't consider it as stable/usable [07:26] when we were speaking of xarchiver on the ML [07:26] I guess we have to trust him then [07:26] yeah [07:26] I'd really like us to start having stabe and mature apps in default [07:26] we have always been a bit edgy [07:26] because xfce is for more knowledgable poeople [07:26] but I do not thyingk that is a very good idea [07:26] anymore [07:27] easy to use and stable and fast [07:27] on a 256M machine ubuntu si crawling [07:27] but xubuntu is not friendly enough [07:28] so many ousers in that category are just mixing them anyway [07:28] besides, with file-roller the performance and memory consumtion arguments brought up by Giuseppe are irrelevant: [07:29] if xarchiver is better because it uses 40M instead of 120M === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508DBAA8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:29] in that case the 600K extra mem of libgnome depsa does not matter [07:29] which program does still depend on libgnome in xubuntu? [07:30] so, the only thing I have with squeeze it seems inactivem, and it upstream told us it's not ready that's it [07:30] otherwise I;d have nothing against putting itin gutsy now [07:30] I always added new apps to xubuntu even in the last weeks since wse cannot break ubuntu/kubuntu so we are sort of unoficially allowed [07:31] especially since all those changed improved things :) [07:31] (the upstream author is developing ristretto at the moment, I guess that's why squeeze is inactive now) [07:31] mr_pouit: currently gnome-screensaver but that will go away when my libgnomekbd patch in upstream gets in the archve [07:31] mr_pouit: oh, same author [07:31] ok [07:31]