=== yharrow [n=sysadmin@unaffiliated/yharrow] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === finalbeta [n=viper@d54C6865D.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hoora [i=hoora@gateway/tor/x-baf67ad32e43f85d] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === astro76 [n=james@unaffiliated/astro76] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko_ [n=doko@dslb-088-073-124-170.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === tck [n=tck@78.16.23.148] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === nixternal [n=nixterna@ubuntu/member/pdpc.active.nixternal] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === PriceChild [n=pricechi@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.student.PriceChild] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ToonArmy [n=chris@88-105-148-244.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === licio [n=licio@ubuntu/member/licio] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === l_ [n=l_@mix.mmjgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@ip72-211-151-55.tc.ph.cox.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === merriam [n=merriam@85-211-20-34.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco [n=JSG@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === freeflying [n=freeflyi@211.94.35.200] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Palintheus [n=trey@unaffiliated/palintheus] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === tehk [n=tehk@c-68-44-165-48.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hoora [i=hoora@gateway/tor/x-5f9375bdeb89ce85] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco [n=JSG@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lionel [n=lionel@ip-149.net-89-3-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508DB191.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === synacktion [n=synackti@c-75-71-233-190.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Palintheus is now known as Palintheus|afk === ionstorm [n=ion@71-36-164-32.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === l_ [n=l_@mix.mmjgroup.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === licio [n=licio@ubuntu/member/licio] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === chuckdong [n=jdong@ubuntu/member/jdong] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@ubuntu/member/tonyyarusso] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === myriamrs [n=myriam_r@83.222.147.62] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508DB191.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pyros_prtbl [n=peter@c-76-106-153-54.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pyros_prtbl [n=peter@c-76-106-153-54.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === nealmcb [n=neal@wikipedia/nealmcb] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:43] @schedule denver [06:43] Schedule for America/Denver: 11 Sep 09:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 13:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 06:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 09:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 06:00: Edubuntu [06:51] far too early in the morning for me === Shely [n=Sea@60.20.52.47] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [07:23] ajmitch: I can imagine! === ajmitch had hoped that they'd change the meeting time at least once, but no luck so far === jsgotangco [n=JSG@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Zic [n=Zic@ubuntu/member/zic] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === SpudDogg [n=spuddogg@c-76-109-159-194.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === czessi_ [n=Czessi@dslb-088-073-024-233.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === thekorn [n=thekorn@a89-182-26-183.net-htp.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Shely [n=Sea@221.201.61.42] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Lure [n=lure@external-1.hermes.si] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === myriamrs is now known as Mamarok === ionstorm [n=ion@71-36-164-32.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === _czessi [n=Czessi@dslb-088-073-010-202.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === juliux [n=juliux@ubuntu/member/juliux] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo [n=egon@p54A67B1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach [n=daniel@i59F728F9.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:27] @schedule Copenhagen [09:27] Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 11 Sep 17:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 21:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu === freeflying [n=freeflyi@211.94.35.200] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Balkhog [i=Blomroir@gateway/tor/x-c54d4bc67255283a] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:43] @now [09:43] Current time in Etc/UTC: September 11 2007, 07:43:06 - Next meeting: Server Team meeting in 7 hours 16 minutes === illovae [n=illovae@lns-bzn-54-82-251-73-94.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dholbach_ [n=daniel@i59F7425C.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pochu [n=emilio@84.Red-83-57-218.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Webspot [n=Webspot@unaffiliated/webspot] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === jono [n=jono@88-107-83-122.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mc44 [n=mc44@unaffiliated/mc44] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === myriam_rs [n=myriam_r@83.222.147.62] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === myriam_rs is now known as Mamarok === rraphink [i=raphink@ubuntu/member/raphink] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === myriam_rs [n=myriam_r@83.222.147.62] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === myriam_rs is now known as Mamarok === illovae [n=illovae@lns-bzn-54-82-251-73-94.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === myriam_rs [n=myriam_r@83.222.147.62] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === myriam_rs is now known as Mamarok === PriceChild [n=pricechi@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.student.PriceChild] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === toutouff [n=nicolas@gov91-1-82-234-90-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === asac [n=asac@debian/developer/asac] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === tck [n=tck@78.16.23.148] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === gouki [n=gouki@ubuntu/member/gouki] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === freeflying [i=freeflyi@ubuntu/member/freeflying] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rodarvus [n=rodarvus@ubuntu/member/rodarvus] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === freeflying [i=freeflyi@211.103.244.55] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pochu [n=emilio@84.Red-83-57-218.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco [n=JSG@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === zul [n=chuck@ubuntu/member/zul] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:37] @schedule montreal [02:37] Schedule for America/Montreal: 11 Sep 11:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 15:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 16:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 08:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 11:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 08:00: Edubuntu [02:39] @schedule berlin [02:39] Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 11 Sep 17:00: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 21:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu [02:46] @now [02:46] Current time in Etc/UTC: September 11 2007, 12:46:28 - Next meeting: Server Team meeting in 2 hours 13 minutes === ian_brasil [n=ian@dasasob.nokia.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === toutouff [n=nicolas@gov91-1-82-234-90-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Balkhog [i=Blomroir@gateway/tor/x-fbfd45fc38bba083] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Hattory [i=darkrad@host125-167-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Hattory [i=darkrad@host125-167-dynamic.15-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] === sommer [n=sommer@192.154.64.85] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ian_brasil [n=ian@dasasob.nokia.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hoora [i=hoora@gateway/tor/x-c3555503e89781a6] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Rinchen [n=joey@canonical/launchpad/pdpc.supporter.professional.rinchen] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lionel [n=lionel@ip-149.net-89-3-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@unaffiliated/ianmcorvidae] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === evand [n=evand@ubuntu/member/evand] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ryanakca [n=ryan@ubuntu/member/ryanakca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === simira [n=simira@aine.err.no] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mr_pouit [n=mrpouit@ubuntu/member/mrpouit] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === tck [n=tck@213-202-133-50.bas502.dsl.esat.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ubotu [n=ubotu@ubuntu-nl.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === merriam [n=merriam@85-211-21-215.dyn.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === arualavi [n=Iva@84.76.94.4] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === gpocentek [i=gauvain@sd-10791.dedibox.fr] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508D800D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === RickSeymour [n=rick@91.84.4.77] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mralphabet [n=username@71-10-125-165.dhcp.stpt.wi.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Stwange [n=james@5ac88fb6.bb.sky.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pschulz01 [n=pschulz0@ubuntu/member/pschulz01] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lukketto [n=lukketto@host80-193-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:44] G'day === avoine [n=avoine@modemcable003.251-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Server Team meeting | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu === jdstrand [n=jamie@mail.strandboge.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mathiaz [n=mathiaz@ubuntu/member/mathiaz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:58] hi all [04:58] hello [04:59] sommer: mathiaz Howdy. [04:59] hi! [05:00] saluton! === Kamping_Kaiser [n=kgoetz@gnewsense/friend/kgoetz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lbm [n=lbm@0x555373ab.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:00] Hello! === mc44 [n=mc44@unaffiliated/mc44] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === dantalizing [n=chatzill@n128-227-179-195.xlate.ufl.edu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:01] alright... Time to get started [05:01] dendrobates won't be here [05:01] #startmeeting [05:01] Meeting started at 14:52. The chair is mathiaz. [05:01] Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] [05:02] The agenda for today is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting === keescook [n=kees@ubuntu/member/keescook] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:03] hi keescook ! [05:03] Hi, Kees! [05:03] hi keescook ! [05:03] [TOPIC] Setup TeamReporting [05:03] New Topic: Setup TeamReporting === jdstrand thinks keescook is pretty popular this morning === tck_ [n=tck@78.16.49.211] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:04] hiya folks! [05:04] that's what I get for being late. ;) [05:04] jono started an effort to implement reporting for each team part of Ubuntu [05:05] the desktopteam, the kernelteam are already using it. === Knightlust [n=dax@ubuntu/member/knightlust] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:05] everything is explained here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/TeamReporting [05:05] the first step is to Nominate one or more people to overlook the team reporting [05:06] I'd be happy to do that. Anyone else would like to help me ? === soren hides behind his chair [05:07] I'll help out === ScottLij [n=scott@24-180-196-49.dhcp.aldl.mi.charter.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:07] @schedule Paris [05:07] Schedule for Europe/Paris: Current meeting: Server Team meeting | 11 Sep 21:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu [05:08] I'm completely clear what get's copies where on the 22nd of each month. [05:08] dantalizing: great ! I'll contact you to see how we can work together. [05:08] Rock! [05:08] ok [05:09] [ACTION] mathiaz and dantalizing will look after TeamReporting [05:09] ACTION received: mathiaz and dantalizing will look after TeamReporting [05:09] [TOPIC] Talk about specifications tracking and the need to clean them [05:09] New Topic: Talk about specifications tracking and the need to clean them [05:09] I sent out an email last night about this agenda item. It agenda item started with my note about the outdated wiki "talk" page from 2005: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/talkd [05:10] Ive had some frustration in the4 past - not easy to see which blueprints are current, what current status is [05:10] Even this Bug 111610: can't see what is proposed for sprint, but not accepted [05:10] Launchpad bug 111610 in blueprint "let us see which blueprints have been proposed for a sprint" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/111610 === pschulz01 should have had a 'not' in his previous sentance, but he thinks he "get's it" now. [05:10] So one thing is I'd like to understand our process for working with blueprints and encourage folks to keep things more up-to-date [05:12] There a lots of blueprints related to ubuntu-server [05:12] I also not lots of interest for a long time in various ways to make it easier to set up and administer common services and wonder if we should start using a PPA to try out things like ebox [05:12] yup [05:12] nealmcb: We haven't got a set process (apart from what Launchpad encourages). [05:12] but nobody really looked after them as there wasn't any ubuntu server team dedicated to that. [05:12] What's a PPA? [05:12] pschulz01, personal package archvie iirc [05:12] e.g. who can assign the team to a blueprint? who can change importance? [05:12] I agree that we need to clean things. [05:12] pschulz01: Personal Package Archive. It's like your own personal Ubuntu derivative. [05:12] launchpad lets you create them now. [05:13] Ta. [05:13] Kamping_Kaiser: Only if you're a member of launchad beta tester team. [05:13] nealmcb: may be we could try to clean things out by little step. [05:13] soren, i'm not a memeber of the team, and i'm pretty sure i have an otpion in my LP account [05:13] nealmcb: I remember having a hard time with ldap related things. [05:13] Kamping_Kaiser: That's a *very* recent change, then. [05:14] soren: yup - in the last few weeks [05:14] Much more recent than that. [05:14] I don't think it'll actually let you, but it's off topic anyway :) [05:15] I've created a PPA [05:15] https://blueprints.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/ has a list of tracked blueprints [05:15] so the first step could be to go through the wiki pages and figure out which one are specification [05:15] then subscribe ubuntu-server to it. [05:16] so that we can get a list of specifications in one place. === calc [n=ccheney@conr-adsl-209-169-124-200.consolidated.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:16] after than we can start cleaning things. [05:16] nealmcb: You're also a member of the beta tester team.. [05:16] can any ubuntu-server member subscribe and unsubscribe the team from a spec? [05:16] I think so [05:16] soren: right - that is what Kamping_Kaiser said [05:16] nealmcb: I think any lp user can. :) [05:16] Kamping_Kaiser: au contraire. [05:17] whoops [05:17] soren: oops - I misread that - sorry [05:17] nealmcb: Nope. Quite the opposite. He said he's not a member. [05:18] so what do you think about my proposed plan ? [05:18] mathiaz: one fertile place to look for blueprints to subscribe the team to is the list of all the specs of all the team members [05:18] So... What do we do? Go through the specs and clean them up? I think it's a good idea. [05:18] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server/+specworkload [05:19] the "spec workload" [05:19] the first step would be to go through the wiki pages tagged as CategorySpec and make sure that the one related to server have ubuntu-server subscribed [05:20] I think marking old specs as done or superceded by another spec in their wiki page would also help [05:20] nealmcb: sure. That's also needed. [05:20] mathiaz: but only ones that are relatively current [05:21] nealmcb: I think we need to have the big picture first [05:21] nealmcb: and then from the list we can start purging/merging the specs [05:21] that would be a whole lot of specs.... perhaps we can do the big picture on a wiki page, rather than as team subscriptions? [05:21] easier to organize.... [05:22] well. That would be another wiki page... and blueprints.lp.net is specifically made for that. [05:23] b.lp.net also help to keep track of dependencies [05:23] if the wiki page is a Spec, it should have an entry in LP [05:23] so it'S just a matter subscribing ubuntu-server to it. [05:24] I'm afraid we would end up with so many out-of-date specs that people would get lost or daunted. [05:24] nealmcb: yes. The second step would be two purge the spec list from b.lp.net [05:25] /two/too/ [05:25] who can set priorities for specs? [05:25] nealmcb: Owners of the spec and Ubuntu drivers. [05:25] IIRC [05:25] how many ubuntu drivers are on the server team? [05:26] none IIRC [05:26] none [05:26] https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-drivers/+members [05:27] so - what'S the action on this topic ? === dantalizing is now known as dantalizing_away [05:28] I guess I want to look at the options we've discussed a bit more [05:29] and how well the various tools would support blueprint triage [05:29] ok... We'll continue to discuss that on the ML [05:29] nealmcb: would you mind sending an email to continue this discussion ? [05:29] will do [05:29] Right. We should also remember that the Launchpad team always is open to input. If we need the blueprint management to change to be useful, it should change. [05:30] yeah - I've got some bugs in :-) [05:30] exporting lp relationship data as xml would help also [05:30] [ACTION] nealmcb will send an email to ubuntu-server ml about blueprints cleaning [05:30] ACTION received: nealmcb will send an email to ubuntu-server ml about blueprints cleaning [05:30] do we want to discuss PPAs also? [05:30] or later? [05:30] [TOPIC] Update on the tasksel tasks [05:30] New Topic: Update on the tasksel tasks [05:31] Right. [05:31] The blueprint is https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-server-tasks [05:31] dendrobates wanted to talk about adding new tasks [05:31] I've just linked it to my branch of the ubuntu seeds, where I've added the print-server task. [05:32] https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~shawarma/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.gutsy.server-tasks [05:33] If anyone has some good, concrete suggestions for new tasks, just tell me, or even create a branch of ubuntu-seeds of your own. [05:33] mathiaz: Are we discussing the blueprint itself? [05:33] you've just added a printserver ? [05:33] which package do you think should be added to the task ? [05:33] email server [05:33] openVPN server [05:33] mathiaz: http://tinyurl.com/3czchw [05:34] mathiaz: I've requested input from our printing expert, but he hasn't gotten back to me yet. [05:34] pschulz01: Openvpn server is a good idea! [05:35] is openvpn in main ? [05:35] nope === pschulz01 as to set one up at some stage in the near future and is very confused about it all. [05:35] no [05:35] has [05:35] pschulz01: This won't help you much, I'm afraid. [05:35] Tasks are mere a selection of packages. [05:35] I don't think we can an openvpn task then [05:36] soren: Something I've been thinking about.. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PaulSchulz/UbuntuServerDocumentation [05:36] mathiaz: It could get promoted, I guess. [05:36] soren: hum... printconf is in universe [05:36] mathiaz: YEs. [05:36] soren: so you'd have to get it into main before it gets in printer-server task [05:36] mathiaz: It is also just a suggestion. If Till thinks it's a really good idea, we could file a MIR for it. [05:37] mathiaz: Yes, we don't enable universe by default, do we? [05:37] mathiaz: ..on servers? [05:37] soren: not for the cds. [05:37] on server yes. [05:37] Oh, ok. [05:37] universe is enabled by default on universe since feisty [05:37] Well.. It's no problem then. [05:38] It could work, then. [05:38] so are you saying we can have tasks that use packages in universe? [05:38] hum... I don't think so. [05:38] Well, technically yes. Politically... Dunno. [05:38] got it [05:38] Because tasks are provided with the cd [05:38] so packages have to be on the cd [05:38] mmm.... [05:38] No. [05:38] no, you should not have tasks that include packages in universe. [05:38] and we don'T ship universe packages on cd [05:39] Mithrandir: Ok. [05:39] mathiaz: While I like the idea, of tasks, I this it could be done as an 'after the fact' installation step. [05:40] pschulz01: you can run tasksel after you've installed your system === dantalizing_away is now known as dantalizing [05:40] soren: are the other packages in main ? [05:40] mathiaz: AFAIR, yes. [05:41] mathiaz: That's OK.. but I installed two servers today which just need the the minimal server install. [05:41] mathiaz: I'll check it before I go any further with it, of course. [05:41] soren: so you're waiting for feedback from our printing expert [05:41] mathiaz: Yes. [05:41] soren: and then try to get a task added [05:42] mathiaz: Yes. [05:42] soren: I don't know if it's too late in the release cycle for that. [05:42] mathiaz: It's not. [05:42] mathiaz: It needs to be soon, but it's not too late yet. [05:42] soren: great then. [05:42] when is the freeze on tasks? [05:43] Well... Since tasks are really just an easy way to isntall a set of packages we already support... it's not very intrusive at all. [05:43] anyone else has a idea about packages that should be added to the print-server task ? [05:44] soren: I guess they need documentation, so certainly before string freeze [05:45] nealmcb:Yes, I guess they are translatable strings. [05:45] soren: Have you set up a print-server with these packages? [05:45] soren: I meant install documentation, but yes [05:45] pschulz01: Nope. === KaBaL [n=ramon@host69.200-45-217.telecom.net.ar] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:46] soren: Seems that you know what you've got to do. [05:46] let's move on. [05:47] [TOPIC] Choose an official MTA postfix/exim [05:47] New Topic: Choose an official MTA postfix/exim [05:47] dendrobates asked to raise this point. [05:47] thanks, soren! === lamont thought it was postfix... [05:47] I'm not sure what he meants by that. [05:47] it probably refers to the fact that both are in main [05:48] mathiaz: Well, for one thing it would be useful for knowing which MTA to install for the mail-server task :) [05:48] isn't that postfix ? [05:49] postfix was chosen pre-warty as the official MTA, installed in warty and hoary (and breezy???), then dropped since grandma doesn't need an MTA [05:49] keescook: do you have any issue with supported two MTA in main ? [05:49] mailx depends on "exim4 | mail-transport-agent". [05:50] lamont: Right, and since then we (allegedly) haven't had a preferred mta. [05:50] that's because it's synced from debian, and one specifies $real-package | $virtual-package [05:50] mathiaz: nope, (we already do) [05:50] To throw something in.. one 'complaint' I have heard recently is that 'mutt' requires postfix, when the end user wanted to use exim... the dependency is "postfix | mail-transport-agent" [05:50] lamont: I know. [05:50] lamont: But if we truly preferred postfix, we'd change that sort of thing. [05:50] pschulz01: that's not requiring postfix. that's installing postfix if you don't have an MTA already [05:50] soren: I did once... [05:50] pschulz01: Then it doesn't require postfix. [05:50] pschulz01: apt-get install mutt exim4 (or have exim4 installed before installing mutt) [05:50] pschulz01: exim4 will fulfill the dependency too and not force postfix upon the user. [05:51] all: Ta.. I'll pass that on.. [05:51] soren: the question is: do we care enough to for those packages _just_ to s/exim4/postfix/? [05:51] I think actually the discussion arose at the sprint in July where Rick and I discussed that some packages said "postfix | m-t-a" and others said "exim4 | m-t-a" === Kamping_Kaiser thinks having no mta is loony [05:52] Kamping_Kaiser: that's a different discussion [05:52] lamont, ok [05:52] Kamping_Kaiser: On a desktop? [05:52] lamont: I don't. :) [05:52] (on a server it makes sense, on the desktop, it's lunacy, especially if it's grandma's desktop) [05:52] soren, i'm thinking more of the servers actualy, but its somewhat aplicable to desktops [05:53] Kamping_Kaiser: I'd love to discuss it at a different time :) [05:53] Kamping_Kaiser: It's another service that isn't needed on a desktop/workstation. I'm thinking of 'network appliance'. [05:53] (an MTA on the desktop, for the "typical" user means that eventually we fill up their disk with mail messages that they don't even know to read. === stgraber [n=stgraber@dakara.stgraber.org] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:54] To get back on track... Do we care enough to prefer one of the other? [05:54] for what it's worth I vote for Postfix as "official MTA" [05:54] lamont: exactlly. [05:54] soren: I cared enough to make the change when we were shipping postfix installed by default, and was then a big supporter of the "stop installing postfix by default" campaign [05:54] soren: so the issue is to fix packages which specifies ""exim4 | m-t-a" ? [05:55] sommer: what is documented in the ubuntu server guide ? [05:55] another point for Postfix is it's currently documented better than exim. [05:55] and what do we suggest in documentation, in ubotu and in the support channels [05:55] soren: Can the 'ubuntu-server' claim this decision, given that we are the ones that will be caring the most about it? [05:55] mathiaz: Postfix and Exim === lamont would be happy to make the changes in main again [05:55] soren: (do you think?_ [05:55] s/happy/willing/ :) [05:55] The advantage of doing an s/exim4/postfix/ in all cases would be that it avoids confusion between two users who don't care which m-t-a- they've got, but care about being able to exchange experiences about the m-t-a their system has chosen to provide them with. [05:55] pschulz01: I think we'll have to discuss that ubuntu-devel anyway [05:56] pschulz01: Yes, I belive so. [05:56] mathiaz: Yes... [05:56] pschulz01: For any other team, it's a service rather than a detail they need to specifically worry about. [05:56] But yes, of course we need to run it by everyone else. [05:57] mathiaz: since desktop doesn't install an mta, we can assert that they don't care [05:57] ..but my stance in that discussion is that it's our decision. [05:57] (as long as we don't force postfix over exim, which will cause um... issues) [05:57] s/will/would/ [05:57] what does "force" mean there? [05:57] lamont: Would adding postfix to a mail-server task be considered "forcing postfix over exim"? [05:57] soren: so you're suggestion is to s/exim/postfix/ in the package control file. [05:57] soren: ? [05:58] mathiaz: soren: It would be possible to argue the same on other packages as well. [05:58] mathiaz: I don't have a strong postfix preference, but yes, I belive it would be a good idea to unify it. [05:58] mathiaz: soren: eg. kubuntu, edubutu and their desktop packages. [05:58] soren: ok. Could you send an email to ubuntu-devel to discuss that changes ? [05:58] pschulz01: Huh? [05:58] mathiaz: Sure. [05:59] what about the ltsp (edubuntu) server? [05:59] default to postfix, but don't break things if user specifies exim4? [05:59] [ACTION] soren will send an email to ubuntu-devel about using postfix as default package in control files. [05:59] ACTION received: soren will send an email to ubuntu-devel about using postfix as default package in control files. [05:59] nealmcb: +1 [06:00] nealmcb: exactly [06:00] nealmcb, sounds nice [06:00] [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting. [06:00] New Topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting. [06:00] soren: Just arguing that thee will be other packages with similar logic. [06:00] lamont: I.e. don't violate debian policy :) [06:00] backuppc, logcheck, mailman, mailx are the main packages affected [06:00] soren: yeah.. [06:00] Previous meeting log is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20070828 [06:01] iirc debians default mta is exim4 isnt it? [06:01] yes [06:01] Kamping_Kaiser: Sounds right. [06:01] DocDay was organised - The KnowledgeBase wiki page has been updated. [06:01] and that is precisely what leads to the Depends: line for debian (and synced packages) [06:02] sommer: thanks for updating the php5 documentation. [06:02] no problem [06:02] sommer: I've seen a couple of patches for the ubuntu server guide about it, right ? [06:02] lamont, just wondering if its saner to default to exim4 because less packages would need changing (i have nfi, fwiw) [06:03] mathiaz: Yep, the first was a very minor update and the second was some content on php5-cgi [06:03] sommer: thanks for that. [06:03] it's currently being reviewed, I believe. [06:03] sommer: does the ubuntu server guide needs more change ? [06:04] welcome [06:04] sommer: how accurate is it for gutsy ? === Mez_ [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:04] the Dovecot part should be good...I haven't tested much else on Gutsy [06:05] OpenLDAP section is probably okay...now that I think about it [06:05] I can review the other packages if you want. === ian_brasil [n=ian@dasasob.nokia.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:06] sommer: that's be great - if you could review some sections of the server guide. [06:06] sommer: link? [06:06] https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/server/C/ [06:06] sommer: Ta [06:06] is someone else interested in updating/reviewing the ubuntu server guide ? [06:07] that's for feisty anyway [06:07] mathiaz: Yes [06:07] pschulz01: great ! Could you coordinate with sommer on the section you'd like to review ? === elkbuntu [n=melissa@ubuntu/member/elkbuntu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:08] isnt string freeze tomorrow? [06:08] string freeze is thursday.... [06:08] cool we should be able to cover more ground [06:08] sommer: I need to go through the entire document anyway.. wit a couple of new servers. [06:08] sommer pschulz01: and add an item in the Roadmap [06:08] nealmcb, thats my tomorrow [06:09] :-) [06:09] mathiaz: sure I'll add links to what I'm working on [06:09] [ACTION] sommer pschulz01 will start to review the ubuntu server guide [06:09] ACTION received: sommer pschulz01 will start to review the ubuntu server guide [06:09] we need someone in Hawaii to work on it :-) [06:09] [ACTION] sommer will add an item to the Roadmap [06:09] ACTION received: sommer will add an item to the Roadmap [06:10] ...except for that little detail about it being UTC and all.... [06:10] [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap. [06:10] New Topic: Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap. [06:11] nealmcb: how is the factoids update going ? [06:11] I got a list of the biggest outages in the roadmap [06:11] and a bit of text for 2 of them. the mail discussion has helped with how to word them [06:12] I welcome suggestions, and will continue working on them [06:12] nealmcb: the list seems great ! Thanks for putting this up. [06:13] nealmcb: may be you could send an email to ubuntu-server with the list of some preliminary text for each fact ? [06:13] ok [06:13] [ACTION] nealmcb will send an email to ubuntu-server with the proposed factoids. [06:13] ACTION received: nealmcb will send an email to ubuntu-server with the proposed factoids. [06:14] As for AppArmor, the kernel has been updated with the latest version. [06:14] I'm currently testing the user space update. === rodarvus [n=rodarvus@ubuntu/member/rodarvus] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:14] mathiaz: jj sent the kernel patch for syslog to kyle [06:15] But still have problems with the livecd, due to stacked file system. [06:15] keescook: Ok. I've pinged BenC which pointed me to kyle. [06:15] so the new userspace utils work with the kernel module [06:16] except for the aa-genprof tool [06:16] cool. and this is from http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mathiaz/apparmor/ubuntu-mathiaz/ tree, correct? [06:16] keescook: yes. everything is there. [06:16] upstream has released a tarbal for 2.1 [06:17] actually it's a pre-release. === lukketto [n=lukketto@host80-193-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === mc44 [n=mc44@unaffiliated/mc44] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:17] As I've been following their svn closely it should work well [06:17] excellent. Looking at the changelog, what is this for: * Remove apparmor-utils depends on bsdutils [06:18] keescook: it's a warning from lintian [06:18] keescook: bsdutils is part of base [06:18] oh, duh. :P === mbudde [n=mbudde@0x57344dc2.boanxx21.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:18] keescook: so if you wanna depend on it, you need to depend on specific version [06:18] and you've totally dropped apparmor-modules-source? Isn't it handy for helping the kernel team do merges? [06:19] I don't think so. [06:19] okay [06:19] kyle got the source from their svn tree. [06:19] I'll test this too, and upload it. [06:19] ok. cool. [06:20] Is there anything else ? [06:20] not from me. :) [06:21] I'll mention since dendrobates is not here that I will be looking at ldap-auth-client and trying to finish it up === Balkhog [i=Blomroir@gateway/tor/x-1fcfc6e429bd1b15] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:24] jdstrand: great. Thanks. [06:24] So the next meeting will take place in two weeks. [06:24] same time, same place. [06:24] thanks all [06:24] cool thanks all [06:24] thanks for stopping by. === keescook waves [06:25] bye! === dantalizing [n=chatzill@n128-227-179-195.xlate.ufl.edu] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [06:25] #endmeeting [06:25] Meeting finished at 16:16. [06:26] NOT [06:26] I've filed a bug against mootbot about the time being off, by the way :) [06:26] Goodnight all! [06:26] soren: thanks - I was about to do the same thing [06:26] nealmcb: :) === mathiaz [n=mathiaz@ubuntu/member/mathiaz] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [06:28] soren: as a subscriber to time-nuts@febo.com I'm a certified nut :-) [06:28] nealmcb: I have no clue what that is :) [06:29] a list for folks that love not just ntp, but all kinds of high-precision time stuff [06:29] hi.. === sommer [n=sommer@192.154.64.85] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [06:30] nealmcb: Oh, I see. [06:30] nealmcb: Yes, in that case, MootBot must make you cry :) === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 11 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers === keescook [n=kees@ubuntu/member/keescook] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [06:34] soren: yup === thekorn [n=thekorn@a89-182-142-96.net-htp.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [06:42] @schedule Copenhagen [06:42] Schedule for Europe/Copenhagen: 11 Sep 21:00: Technical Board | 12 Sep 22:00: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 17:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 22:00: Xubuntu Developers === juliux [n=juliux@ubuntu/member/juliux] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pschulz01 [n=pschulz0@ubuntu/member/pschulz01] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === ian_brasil [n=ian@dasasob.nokia.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hjmf [n=hjmf@37.Red-81-32-9.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rodarvus [n=rodarvus@ubuntu/member/rodarvus] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ubotu [n=ubotu@ubuntu/bot/ubotu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === bigon [i=bigon@213.219.161.188.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508D800D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ian_brasil [n=ian@dasasob.nokia.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === thekorn [n=thekorn@a89-182-142-96.net-htp.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@c-71-198-55-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lukketto [n=lukketto@host80-193-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hagi [n=hagi@adsl-84-227-21-220.adslplus.ch] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === illovae [n=illovae@82.251.73.94] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ytojack [n=ytojack@59.35.240.199] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === finalbeta [n=viper@d54C6865D.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === RobV [n=robert@89.100.132.29] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jorgec [n=jorgec@ethos.battleaxe.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === jcastro [n=jcastro@ethos.battleaxe.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ian_brasil [n=ian@dasasob.nokia.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === thekorn [n=thekorn@a89-182-142-96.net-htp.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@c-71-198-55-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === bigon [i=bigon@213.219.161.188.adsl.dyn.edpnet.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Current meeting: Technical Board | Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 13 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 18 Sep 15:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers === hoora [i=hoora@gateway/tor/x-782ed86f05e04269] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:02] mdz, mjg59, sabdfl: TB time? [09:03] Keybuk: Sure [09:04] SMS'd the other two ... [09:07] mdz won't be around for another 20 mins, and no response from sabdfl [09:07] since two of the issues are yours, I don't think we have a reasonable Q to discuss them [09:08] Yeah. Wait for mdz? [09:09] yes [09:09] let's defer until half past === illovae [n=illovae@82.251.73.94] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvolt1ge [n=highvolt@dsl-243-44-127.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:18] Since I haven't heard anything, I take it you won't be handling my core-dev application today? [09:19] soren: I've gotten completely confused and baffled as to what the core-dev process is now [09:20] Keybuk: I can relate to that :) [09:20] Keybuk: IIUIC, motu-council looks it over to see if it's complete crack. If not, they forward to you. You're then supposed to invite the applicant to a TB meeting to do an interview. [09:22] "The TB will review and respond, usually setting up an appointment to attend a meeting." [09:23] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewDeveloperProcess [09:23] I guess we'll do it later then [09:24] As in "not today"? === mdz_ [n=mdz@ip-81-1-105-230.cust.homechoice.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [09:24] aha, an mdz [09:24] mdz: shall we start? [09:24]