[11:59] <lapo> hi
[12:25] <nothlit> lapo: do you have anything cooking for -buntu?
[12:29] <lapo> nothlit: I'm just restructuring tangerine-icon-theme a bit
[12:33] <nothlit> no additions/modifications at all?
[12:35] <lapo> nothlit: I'd like to cover all the icons in the default install menus at least
[12:35] <lapo> change the computer monitors to something similar to the new default bg which is not defined yet
[12:35] <lapo> that's mostly the plan
[12:36] <nothlit> cool
[12:37] <nothlit> is sabdfl anywhere close to moving away from his human iconset?
[12:37] <lapo> no idea
[12:38] <lapo> I hope so tho :-)
[01:41] <kwwii> hi guys
[01:41] <kwwii> I think that if anything, we will re-work the human icons, not replace them with tango or such
[01:42] <kwwii> the biggest thing against tango at this point is that it is basically a Novell thing and as a different product and company we want our own look and that has to be somewhat different than what the other companies products are making
[01:53] <andreasn> the style guidelines or tango-icon-theme?
[01:53] <andreasn> the style guidelines more turned into more of a gnome thing than a novell thing at this point
[01:55] <andreasn> and quite a number of application developers have picked it up, so in case you select a "unique look", you'll have the drawback that you always have to play catch up and look incomplete, and that's kind of unprofessional
[01:56] <andreasn> so if you decide to redo human, leaning a bit closer towards the tango style guidelines might be a good idea
[01:57] <nothlit> you wouldn't need the guidelines necessarily, just a general semicompatible look
[01:57] <andreasn> or oxygen maybe, guess they both look the same more or less
[01:59] <andreasn> nothlit: yeah, perhaps
[02:00] <andreasn> I guess it would be a good thing to be able to point a ISV to a document and say "well, if you do your interface like this, it will look good on other distros as well"
[02:00] <andreasn> but I guess I do too much ISV-work, so this is just from my point of view
[02:00] <andreasn> I guess a distro that wants to brand itself have other priorities
[02:03] <nothlit> is there any kubuntu-specific iconset actually?
[02:03] <andreasn> well, crystal, but that's not kubuntu specific
[02:03] <andreasn> or oxygen I gues
[02:03] <andreasn> s
[02:09] <kwwii> reading back....
[02:10] <kwwii> andreasn: agreed, I think the guidelines would need to be followed in future sets to fit in well
[02:11] <kwwii> nothlit: no there is no kubuntu specific icon set, we stick to exactly what upstream kde uses
[02:11] <andreasn> sounds good, then you would have control over your own base set, while still fitting in with all the other stuff
[02:11] <kwwii> well, we do have 2-3 icons with a kubuntu logo pasted on top of them, but they are stock icons
[02:11] <kwwii> andreasn: exactly
[02:11] <andreasn> that would sooo much make my job a better place
[02:12] <kwwii> andreasn: in addition the tango guidelines are the best starting point I know of to point people at saying "this is the best way to make good icons"
[02:12] <andreasn> jimmac did quite a good work on those, really simple for people to follow it seems
[02:13] <andreasn> well, anyway, I better get back to work
[02:13] <kwwii> it makes working with third-party icon designers much easier (especially those who have never made icons before)
[02:13] <nothlit> andreasn: the whole page is good, the examples and illustrations bolster its effectiveness a lot imo
[02:13] <kwwii> yeah, have fun
[02:13] <andreasn> fun and fun ;)
[02:13] <andreasn> nah, some of it is pretty fun actually
[02:13] <andreasn> some is not :)
[02:14] <kwwii> they would not pay you to do it if it was always fun ;-)
[02:14] <andreasn> so true
[03:14] <lapo> not so true, they will continue paying andreasn 'cause he is good, if you're not good guidelines are not usefull :-)
[03:15] <andreasn> lapo: oh, I was referring to some print work I'm working on
[03:16] <lapo> kwwii: as I said a several time, tango is not a novell thing anymore, and everything something which integrate nicelly with it is a waste of time imho, since you should just use tango style
[03:16] <lapo> but mark is the one who pays the bills so he has the right to choose watherever he like
[03:17] <lapo> even if it *not the right thing to do, as in this case
[03:17] <nothlit> tango is more a clarity and consistency guideline than an artwork style, i know some people prefer being more experimental
[03:17] <andreasn> well, that's what we talked about, basing a set upon the guidelines
[03:18] <lapo> nothlit: that's the problem of icons in oss
[03:19] <lapo> nothlit: following tango style will make your icons integrate nicelly with the rest, if you want to do different things you can, but you know that it will eventually look out of place in a gnome desktop for example
[03:20] <andreasn> well, we made stuff more themable (in epiphany, evince etc.) so that you could throw you in you more experimental stuff, hopefully you can have something more sane for the default
[03:20] <nothlit> i think its great that FOSS icons are far more consistent than windows'
[03:20] <lapo> imho human doesn't integrate nicelly with the rest of gnome icons and it's a mishmash of style that I can't stand. So we have tangerine which follows ubuntu colors more or less and integrate better with the rest, but if you can stand the mishmash and you like it you should just use it :-)
[03:20] <nothlit> but not having only tango out there is important :P
[03:21] <lapo> nothlit:. sure, but the price you pay having something different is polishness and integratio with the rest of the desktop
[03:22] <lapo> naturally you could dream of doing all the icons, but you'd need at least 5 designers working on it for several mounths
[03:22] <nothlit> nothing wrong with a little bit of diversity available, tango is becoming the standard with other styles being extra anyways
[03:23] <andreasn> nothlit: yeah, and that's why stuff are more themeable now
[03:23] <nothlit> it'd be cool if we could find a compromise for ubuntu in between
[03:23] <nothlit> imo, i know you two love tango
[03:24] <andreasn> well, love and love
[03:24] <andreasn> it makes my job easier
[03:24] <lapo> nothlit: I don't love tango I think it has its quick, but you I love coherence and polishness, and you haven't any other choice
[03:25] <andreasn> so it's not like "hi! I need you to draw icons for our gnu/linux software, but you have to make 11 sets, one for each distro"
[03:25] <lapo> I know how hard is doing a whole theme covering all the naming specs base set, and it's even not enough to have a consistent ui
[03:26] <lapo> to have something "mac grade" polished, the base set coverage is roughly less then half of the icons needed
[03:27] <lapo> so the smartest thing to do for ubuntu will be to leave gnome style alone and just accept upstream decision, as they do with kde
[03:28] <lapo> anyway I'm not the boss there and I already told mark he is wasting time and money with human :-)
[03:28] <nothlit> ubuntu at the minimum needs the palette change lol
[03:29] <lapo> nothlit: brown was a brilliant idea, 'cause it's unique even if it's not something everybody like, but especially with graphics you can't really please everybody
[03:29] <lapo> so a strong decision was ok there
[03:30] <lapo> my point is that it's silly to do branding with ui elements (icons specifically)
[03:30] <nothlit> nothing wrong with brown, just unfortunate combinations earlier
[03:30] <lapo> and I think it's damaging the gnome desktop actually for the ISV problem andreasn decribed
[03:31] <nothlit> thats where branding has the largest effect on the masses though
[03:31] <lapo> nothlit: you can have branding being tango style changing just a bunch of icons
[03:32] <lapo> nothlit: introducing another style with palette and guideliness for a lot of them is not usefull, not working and dangerous
[03:32] <lapo> nothlit: look at bluecurve which is a great piece of artwork and it's the most complete theme around
[03:33] <lapo> if you use bluecurve you have a messy ui, since it doesn't integrate with the rest, and as complete as the theme can be it cannot really cover every icon around
[03:33] <lapo> human not even as good as bluecurve
[03:33] <lapo> anyway, I have work to do :-)
[03:34] <andreasn> rambling you :)
[03:34] <lapo> andreasn: I should write all this stuff somewhere and just post the links, I'm saying the same sh*t over and over and over :-))
[03:34] <nothlit> sure, but they haven't planned any compatibility with tango at all
[03:35] <lapo> nothlit: my point is that you cannot
[03:35] <andreasn> lapo: like a manifest?
[03:35] <andreasn> :)
[03:35] <lapo> nothlit: you can reach a level of integration, say like 80% which is not enough to my eyes to have a consistent desktop, if you want 100% you need to be tango style
[03:36] <lapo> at least in a gnome environment
[03:36] <lapo> nothlit: tangerine was just a demostration so we didn't put much efforts in it, it's mostly 4 or 5 original icons and some recolored or mixed stuff
[03:37] <lapo> nothlit: but with, say a folder design, the tangerine hw design (copied by human) and some other bits here and there, you'll have a tango style branded theme
[03:38] <andreasn> that would be kind of neat to run as a project for the next release
[03:38] <lapo> quite easy to do, better results, better integration, less efforts to produce it then the human mishmash (read less money)
[03:38] <lapo> andreasn: it's something I wanted to do for this one, but I was taken away by g-i-t
[03:39] <andreasn> you did totally great work on g-i-t though!
[03:39] <lapo> thanks, you helped there so congrats yourself as well :-)
[03:39] <andreasn> reminds me that I need to send some highcontrast stuff to luca today
[03:39] <andreasn> even though it's probably to late to put into 2.20
[03:40] <lapo> frankly speaking tho, I could produce something nice for ubuntu, but thinking of having it relegated to a fallback theme it's an energy stop
[03:40] <lapo> so focusing on upstream is better, since it will be good anyone and not just a subset of ubuntu users
[03:40] <andreasn> yeah, I feel that too
[03:42] <nothlit> lapo: could be an independently released theme if not adopted immediately
[03:43] <lapo> nothlit: I'm interested in solving ui problems not in making good looking icon themes
[03:44] <lapo> nothlit: the most difficult thing for g-i-t was not drawing the icons, that's the legwork, but finding good metaphors
[03:46] <nothlit> there were metaphors not already solved by tango?
[03:46] <nothlit> i didn't know there was so much g-i-t handled on its own
[03:48] <lapo> nothlit: tango-icon-theme is untouched since an year or so
[04:58] <kwwii> lapo: my point is this: which distributions ship with tango?
[04:59] <kwwii> as default, I mean
[05:03] <lapo> kwwii: debian?
[05:05] <lapo> kwwii: novell ships tango-icon-theme as default with some novell tweaking
[05:06] <lapo> kwwii: I'm talking about gnome-icon-theme, which is gnome *upstream* default
[05:07] <lapo> so atm ubuntu is not a "pure" reference gnome distro, as kubuntu is for kde for example
[05:13] <andreasn> fedora
[05:13] <andreasn> foresight
[05:14] <kwwii> lapo: right, and ubuntu was not meant to be that - that is what gobuntu is for, I think
[05:15] <kwwii> my point is that because novell is the only big distro to ship (and make) tango icons I do not think that anyone else is interested in shipping them as default
[05:15] <kwwii> anyway
[05:15] <kwwii> time for basketball
[05:16] <andreasn> ubuntu studio
[05:16] <andreasn> yeah, let's continue this some other day
[05:17] <andreasn> xubuntu
[05:17] <andreasn> hm, I wish I was better at distros
[05:37] <lapo> kwwii: make? I'm not from novell :-)
[05:38] <lapo> kwwii: and I'm not looking for a job, so I can be an ass w/o too many problems :-)
[05:46] <lapo> kwwii: anyway I'm not interested about discussing this stuff, I prefer to produce then talk, but what you're saying is untrue at least
[05:48] <lapo> and the perception you have about tango is wrong, yes probably t was started by novell and there were some secret goals I'm not aware about, but now tango style is what upstream gnome choosed and it's the direction other gnome application (not only gnome) are following
[05:48] <lapo> and the only novell guy nowdays working on tango project itself is jakub, which is even the only one still in novell from the initial tango project theme
[05:49] <lapo> so it should be the right time to stop this stupid novell paranoia
[07:30] <kwwii> lapo: all I pointed out was the Novell is the biggest/only commercial distro which ships Tango itself by default. That is the main reason why we want to use a slightly different icon set - it helps us stand out and increases our branding awareness
[07:30] <kwwii> I agree completely with creating icons using the tango guidelines as a starting point
[07:31] <kwwii> this was not my decision to begin with, nor can I change it overnight
[08:02] <lapo> kwwii: I never said to use tango icon theme (which is just an example implementation of the guidelines..blah, blah, blah) as a default, I'm only talking (as I ever did) about using something which follows the tango guidelines, as fedora, debian, <insert a random gnome distro here> are doing (doing the right thing even)
[08:03] <lapo> anyway I'm sick about saying the same thing over and over so I'll quit di discussion, sorry
[10:18] <andreasn> kwwii, lapo: so you both agree more or less :)
[10:18] <kwwii> andreasn: yeah, that is what I thought too :-)
[10:20] <andreasn> :)
[10:20] <andreasn> I saw the window decorations nuno did on his blog the other day, those looked pretty neat
[10:21] <kwwii> I am kinda worried that the oxygen style will not have enough contrast...time will tell
[10:21] <andreasn> yeah, I was thinking that as well, makes great screenshots though :)
[10:21] <andreasn> or do you mean overall with the icon set as well?=
[10:22] <kwwii> more just the styles and the window deco - the icons are perfect, of course :D
[10:22] <kwwii> s/styles/style
[10:23] <andreasn> of course, and you're not biased at all ;)
[10:23] <andreasn> so, yeah, time will tell, good to experiment though
[10:23] <kwwii> me?! no, not at all
[10:23] <kwwii> maybe I should put the oxygen icons in ubuntu too!!!
[10:24] <kwwii> just to hear people scream
[10:24] <andreasn> haha
[10:27] <kwwii> I bet if I did that people would complain a lot less about the human icons ;-)