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Development [01:54] hi pitti [01:54] mvo, MacSlow, Mithrandir: ping ? === rodarvus [n=rodarvus@ubuntu/member/rodarvus] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === kwwii [n=kwwii@p5495561D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [01:55] (I suddenly realise that an interestingly large portion of my team begins their nickname with "M") [01:55] I picked kwwii just so I would have a K, like you :p [01:55] good morning === Hobbsee wonders if this is the gnome desktop team, or what was the ubuntu development team meeting [01:56] Mirco just lost power [01:56] we should just name the team reporting-to-Scott-team to avoid any confusion === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [01:57] heh === DrPepperKid [n=mirco@unaffiliated/macslow] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [01:57] hey Keybuk === Hobbsee shuts up then [01:57] test 1..2..3.. [01:57] Hobbsee: it's the meeting of the team that's a subset of both :p [01:58] DrPepperKid: that was quick! [01:58] Keybuk: right then :P [01:58] Keybuk: and some others. :-P [01:58] Keybuk, I'll see how long it lasts [01:58] *sigh* [01:58] DrPepperKid: pedal faster! [01:58] I did send out a quick mail about an hour ago for agenda items [01:58] * Update on compiz decision from TB [01:58] * Compiz bug update from mvo and Mirco [01:58] * Herdy planning [01:59] did anyone have anything to add to that? [01:59] does 'herdy planning' involve some sponsoree issues? [02:00] (invited people for UDS) === freeflying [n=freeflyi@123.116.103.95] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:00] pitti: it can do, depending on what you want to discuss? [02:00] if particular people are involved, it may be better to raise that privately since this is a public meeting [02:00] just an update how we should proceed [02:00] I just got the "short term" announce... power will be off for an hour or so... *sigh* [02:01] pitti: let's discuss that afterwards [02:01] 'k [02:02] is MacSlow here yet [02:02] ? [02:02] mvo: he came and went [02:02] mvo: but please do give us a quick update on how compiz is going [02:03] mvo, he was hiding behind DrPepperKid :) [02:03] now that the Technical Board have agreed to ship with compiz [02:03] ok [02:03] the bug situation is not too bad currently. upstream is very active and helpful [02:03] especially danny baumann and amaranth (thanks!) [02:04] we may have to blacklist nvidia if the xserver problem does not get sorted (patch 132 breaks the 1.3 abi) [02:04] we may have to blacklist mga (or g450) because its too slow [02:05] how is video playback going? [02:06] I saw that Mez blogged about it not working, was that related or unrelated? [02:06] yesterday, ati was blacklisted; is there any video driver besides intel which is still enabled, btw? [02:06] (with xine, at least) [02:06] pitti: there will be another upload today that just blacklists rs480 [02:06] mvo: ah, cool [02:06] I have not seen mez blog post yet [02:07] mvo: and the ABI change cannot be accounted for in the sourceful part of nvidia? [02:07] but video works for most people, but *not* for intel on i965 [02:07] #111257 [02:07] bug #111257 [02:07] Launchpad bug 111257 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "totem crashes with 'BadAlloc (insufficient resources for operation)' when using compiz and xserver-xorg-video-intel driver" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/111257 === pitti looks forward to getting his new laptop with a gma950 [02:07] mvo: do we know what causes that? [02:08] is there a fix likely? [02:08] now I though I had fixed that with the xf86VFillKeyHelperDrawable patch, but that seems to be not the case [02:08] but I do not have hardware myself to test so its a bit difficult for me currently [02:08] pitti: apparently not, patch 132 is important for ubuntu-mobile but breaks nvidia [02:09] Keybuk: I honestly don't know yet [02:09] mvo: right, I meant changing the nvidia driver itself to adapt to the new API [02:09] mvo: do we know anyone with that hardware? [02:09] I will try to find someone [02:09] Xv will not work for 965 under compiz if XAA is used. We discussed that at TB. [02:10] worst case is blacklisting this pciid [02:10] mvo: 132 is important for upstream gtk too, since what it does is enabling inter-widget compositing. At least, AIUI, from talking with seb. [02:10] Choices are either (a) don't use compiz on 965, or (b) use EXA [02:10] mjg59: what's the downside to using EXA? === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:11] hi Amaranth, good to have you here! [02:11] i really need to start using some calendar software [02:11] (tangent: I really need that SoC guy to finish the evolution google calendar backend :p) [02:11] Keybuk: Significantly less well tested, very different codepaths [02:12] mjg59: you went to XDS, right? what were the opionions about compiz-by-default there? [02:12] Amaranth: import the fridge calendar into evo === Knightlust [n=kvirc@ubuntu/member/knightlust] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:13] Amaranth: anything you want to add about the bug situation in compiz? [02:13] mvo: On aiglx? That it wasn't sensible yet [02:13] i don't think so [02:13] same as the TB meeting [02:13] other than driver issues (which we can work around or blacklist) it's mostly little things [02:14] macslow is working on the workspaces layout bug currently [02:14] that is hopefully fixed soon too === freeflying [n=freeflyi@123.116.103.95] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:15] ok, thanks [02:15] Keybuk: that's your pet bug, no? [02:15] Amaranth: I have lots of pet bugs [02:15] hehe [02:15] sometimes I forget to feed them [02:16] that one is one of my favourite's, too :) [02:16] use a flat layout! === mvo hides === jdstrand [n=jamie@mail.strandboge.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:18] Keybuk: we hope to attack more bugs on the compiz sprint next week [02:18] and we also hope for more user feedback/bugreports [02:18] indeed [02:18] now that its "offical" [02:18] man i got a lot of comments on my blog for that [02:18] so there is obviously interest :) [02:18] Amaranth: what kind of balance? [02:19] all negative :P [02:20] mostly asking if this means their pet driver bug will be fixed [02:20] or what happens for people with unsupported hardware [02:20] http://www.realistanew.com/2007/09/12/compiz-by-default-in-ubuntu-710/#comments [02:21] cool [02:21] It wouldn't surprise me if r300 isn't especially stable [02:21] mvo: before the sprint, if you could check over the bug list and find those that are most user-affecting, etc. that would be great [02:22] anyway, Herdy [02:22] Keybuk: i already did that === Keybuk hands Amaranth a gold star ;) [02:22] Keybuk: I plan to do that, yes [02:23] but Amaranth did great work already === mvo hugs Amaranth [02:23] 8.04 will be an LTS, in some form or other [02:23] is there more than one form ;) ? [02:24] so, no crazy new stuff? :) [02:24] the general thought is that new development is fine if it fixes problems [02:24] or improves usability, etc. [02:25] we want to tackle problems that matter most to our users as well, mdz is looking at some digg-like way of collecting the top problems [02:25] one thing I had in mind for hardy was an application for guided bug filing (decision-tree based); I guess stuff like this is appropriate? [02:26] (we already had that spec for gutsy, but it didn't get very far) [02:26] potentially; Henrik's new Desktop QA Developer will certainly help with that kind of thing :) [02:27] since we're especially looking at what users want, it's worth everyone going through things like: [02:27] * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IdeaPool [02:27] * https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UsabilityWishlist [02:27] * https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu [02:27] and seeing if there's any items in there that interest you [02:27] and maybe the long list of specs that users created [02:28] . o O { a sensible backup solution! } [02:28] I need to come up with a list of development issues for UME, which is kinda on the side of what Ubuntu Desktop does. [02:28] backup++ === mvo loves the idea to have time again to go over all the bugs [02:29] mvo++; more time for bug fixing === mvo would also like to improve the automatic upgrade tester in the next cycle [02:30] so please, over the next week put together a list of problems to tackle [02:30] and then we'll discuss everyone's lists at the team meeting [02:30] Keybuk: to what extent do you expect me to have complete lists for UME? [02:30] Mithrandir: I'm not sure, check with mdz :) at least a partial list will be good though [02:30] he expressed some urgency to the planning === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:31] UME is more interesting simply because it's still in development [02:31] I'm not sure whether it's being considered for LTS or not [02:32] I think we want to LTS it, simply because we'll have devices with it on in the field for quite a while. [02:32] stupid router [02:32] and I don't think we'll have people doing dist-upgrades of their MIDs [02:32] urgency> yes, everything about UME is urgent. :-) [02:33] urgency to general planning, in fact [02:34] is there any other business? [02:34] I don't have anything [02:35] let's go squash bugs [02:35] \o/ [02:35] ok thanks all [02:35] 11 down, 3 to go \o/, so I might be able to help with the unassigned beta bugs soon, too [02:36] pitti: I expect you're glad we have a full time release manager starting on Monday :p [02:36] pitti: feel free to fix all the compiz bugs :) [02:36] indeed I am \o/ [02:36] Amaranth: *cough* [02:36] Amaranth: in fact I am about to go to a shop and take a look at some shiny new laptops now :) [02:36] so that I can actually test it [02:37] Keybuk: although I guess that we'll do the beta release together, for mentoring? [02:37] I imagine so === mvo considers food === kwwii [n=kwwii@p5495561D.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation] === Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting [""] === geser [i=mb@ubuntu/member/geser] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Liberate] === DBO [n=DBO@unaffiliated/dbo] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jsgotangco [n=JSG@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Knightlust [n=kvirc@ubuntu/member/knightlust] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Time] === Rinchen [n=joey@canonical/launchpad/pdpc.supporter.professional.rinchen] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 17 Sep 12:00 UTC: IRC Council | 18 Sep 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 12:00 UTC: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 20:00 UTC: Xubuntu Developers | 20 Sep 12:00 UTC: Desktop Team Development | 21 Sep 12:00 UTC: MOTU Team === Saurus [n=xxx@host150-118-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ian_brasil [n=ian@dasasob.nokia.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === radhios [n=radhios@unaffiliated/radhios] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jdstrand [n=jamie@mail.strandboge.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@c-71-198-55-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:34] @now [04:34] Current time in Etc/UTC: September 13 2007, 14:34:08 - Next meeting: IRC Council in 3 days === bdmurray [n=bdmurray@mylar.outflux.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jono [n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508D83F0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mathiaz [n=mathiaz@ubuntu/member/mathiaz] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === BenC [n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === heno [n=henrik@ubuntu/member/heno] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ScottK [n=ScottK@ubuntu/member/scottk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mvo looks around [05:03] hey mvo :) [05:03] Suggested agenda item: Tribe 6 and Beta bug status [05:03] @now [05:03] Current time in Etc/UTC: September 13 2007, 15:03:26 - Next meeting: IRC Council in 3 days [05:03] hi === Shely [n=Sea@221.201.61.42] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:03] hi === mathiaz waves [05:04] hi === asac doorbell [05:04] It's not really an agenda item, but please all have a look at http://daniel.holba.ch/sponsoring - there are bugs which I might have assigned to you - please try to get back to patch authors [05:04] pitti: btw i will look into fixing the office bean issue with the next upload of OOo [05:04] calc: thank you! appreciated [05:04] calc: when is that scheduled? IOW, when can we expect to have testable CDs again? === Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === pedro_ [n=pedro@pc-4-217-44-190.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:05] pitti: oh it completely breaks the CD *wince* :\ [05:05] hi [05:05] calc: well, not completely break (VMWare testing is fine), but you cannot burn them [05:05] pitti: i had hoped to do it after 2.3.0 is released on Monday but I can try to push that to sooner [05:06] calc: and TBH I have no idea how to free 12 MB on them [05:06] just remove OOo? :-P [05:06] there are almost no langpacks left to remove (which is a pity on itself) === amitk [n=amit@a91-154-119-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:06] pitti: will dropping office bean by itself be enough to fix the problem or should i look to some other things? [05:06] Mithrandir: ! why didn't I think about *that*? [05:07] Could everyone please look at bugs on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone:Alist=473 assigned to them and try to give an updated ETA? (then we can move on to beta) [05:07] calc: should be fine, it pulls in java-gcj-compat and that big libgcj8-jar === heno things we should split out OOo writer and just ship that [05:07] do we use -Os when building?:) === sourcercito [n=sourcer@pc-178-169-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:07] heno: if only that view showed who they were assigned to [05:07] pitti: ok [05:07] heno: shouldn't we move all of those to beta straight away? [05:08] pitti: we should I just though we could do a Tribe 6 wrap-up first [05:08] CDs> As of yesterday they still have serious unionfs issues anyway [05:08] our non-release milestone :) [05:08] for bug 120085, isn't it too late in the release cycle to introduce such a change ? [05:08] Launchpad bug 120085 in sysklogd "Various problems running syslogd with "-u syslog" option" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/120085 [05:09] heno: hm, I don't think that all tribe6 bugs are really more important than the beta ones [05:09] heno: that hasn't been very consistent in the past, bugs were just dragged from tribe to tribe and eventually to beta [05:09] heno: unless you have different experiences? [05:09] pitti: no, it's just a subset. should we instead to High priority bugs from both lists? [05:10] (is a verb missing here?) [05:10] my two bugs are done :) [05:10] ... instead look at .... [05:10] mathiaz, its a regression fix, no ? [05:10] ogra: yes. A regression that was introduce in edgy [05:11] sounds to me like it should go in [05:11] then if a core-dev could have a look at the debdiff I've attached and comment, it would be great [05:12] my bugs are done with workarounds, prettier fixes are still being investigated [05:12] heno: that's why I think we should just merge them into one list and adjust priorities [05:12] I'm down to three restricted-manager bugs for beta, rest is done [05:13] the compiz/g-screensaver issue is still under investiagation [05:15] after moving the last tribe bugs we'll have ~200 open bugs milestoned for beta. how does that compare with previous releases at this stage? [05:15] Mithrandir: ^ === kwwii [n=kwwii@p5495561D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:15] that's quite a bit more, I believe [05:16] but then, we have a much more active server team, for instance. [05:16] making more bugs :) [05:16] we still need to do a critical review of that list though === PriceChild [n=pricechi@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.student.PriceChild] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:17] pitti: shall we do that some time next week? [05:18] heno: agreed; or tomorrow, fine for me [05:18] for bug 132320 I was wondering whether we should just leave tracker indexing off by default anyway [05:18] Launchpad bug 132320 in tracker "Tracker consumes more then 90% of CPU even when indexing is disabled" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/132320 [05:18] pitti: ok, tomorrow is good [05:19] and activate it the first time someone goes to search [05:19] heno: the bug claims that it consumes cycles even if indexing is disabled? how would disabling it help? [05:20] asac: I mean, not run the deamon at all [05:21] compiz/g-screensaver is annoying hard to figure out [05:22] heno: tracker uses that much CPU by design [05:22] heno: it uses 100% cpu but nice level 19 so as soon as something wants CPU time tracker gets pushed out [05:23] Amaranth: which is a good argument for turning it off. I would guess only a fraction of users actually use desktop search [05:23] heno: but it's not a bug [05:23] and it's not a problem [05:23] Amaranth: using 100% cpu for prolonged time period on laptops is an issue... right? [05:23] calc: it's going to not do anything when running on battery [05:23] Amaranth: ah ok [05:24] well, jamie said we could expect that soon [05:24] it's bad for the environment even on desktops :) [05:24] Amaranth: soon enough for gutsy? [05:24] asac: yes [05:24] before beta even, i guess [05:24] Amaranth: you know jamie? [05:24] seriously, using that much CPU is bad form [05:24] so why does it use 90%+ cpu when apparently not doing anything? [05:24] asac: sort of [05:24] Amaranth: ok fine then. [05:25] and most users don't want it (is my humble guess) [05:25] i must admit that i was a bit annoyed by it [05:25] calc: When it's 90+ it's indexing [05:25] when it is actually doing indexing it causes the system to basically grind to a halt until it is done due to disk iowait [05:25] it indexed for two days or so when i upgraded to gutsy [05:25] well you could throttle it [05:25] then it uses less % but runs longer [05:25] so same cpu time in the end [05:26] asac: and how often have you used desktop search since then? === geser [i=mb@ubuntu/member/geser] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:26] pochu: the bug report mentioned above said it was at 90%+ even with indexing disabled, whether that is actually the case I don't know [05:26] also having ~1G of indexing data in .cache/tracker annoyed me a bit [05:26] heno: actually i tried it ... e.g. to find things in mozilla source [05:26] we are not the target audience [05:26] heno: i think i would use it if I could dump updatedb completely in turn [05:26] dholbach: i seconded that. [05:26] calc: I think there's another bug saying it didn't stop to index when it was told to, so probably it was indexing :) [05:26] we keep track of things on our filesystem [05:26] but afaik i cannot search for filenames [05:26] pochu: oh ok [05:27] the target audience use firefox, an mp3 player and skype. that's it :) [05:27] my grandfather can't remember where he puts anything === mvo vaguely remembers that he had 1,7G when he disabled it [05:27] heno: yeah ... but the target audience doesn't have a home with zillions of fileitems either ;) [05:27] asac: you don't know my sister :) [05:28] i haven't looked into this but how do you disable tracker normally? [05:28] heno: so indexing shouldn't take so long ;) [05:28] right they keep their pictures in their gmail acct and search that [05:28] its depended on by ubuntu-desktop so shouldn't actually be completely removed [05:28] its a recommends, no? === mc44 [n=mc44@unaffiliated/mc44] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:28] oh yea just recommends, recommends gets autoinstalled I forgot about that [05:28] well i think its rare that there are picture folders with as many files as a mozilla source copy ;) [05:28] no, it's just that the deamon should be set to not run until the user tries their first search [05:29] calc: I used Sessions [05:29] heno: the backdraft would be that the first search wouldn't yield any results right? so people will never try again :) [05:29] heno: then their first search is worthless and they stop using it [05:29] ack [05:30] Maybe we should ask people instead of speculating? [05:30] bdmurray: yeah ... forum vote ;) [05:30] or their first experience into Ubuntu is slooooow and they stop using _that_ === keescook [n=kees@ubuntu/member/keescook] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:30] asac: it could show a message "your files are not indexed with tracker do you want to start blabla bla?" ok/cancel [05:30] we should take it to the list [05:30] pedro_: +1 [05:30] heno: perhaps a notice telling the user that the first index isn't complete would work [05:30] agreed. [05:30] pedro_: right ... i agree that things can be improved ... but we have to chew on it i guess [05:31] Windows help used to do this, so people are used to that [05:32] it would make the two top tracker bugs no longer Critical [05:32] in OS X they just made it the default. new installs are no problem because there are no files to index and upgrades have maybe one day of pain then they're fine [05:32] (though they should still be fixed) [05:32] so maybe on by default for new installs only? [05:33] Amaranth: +1 (when combined with heno/pedro_ suggestion for existing installs) [05:33] it still takes CPU cycles, RAM and disk space for the 90% who will never use it [05:33] (my random guess) [05:34] it uses almost no RAM so... [05:34] Amaranth: do you have numbers? [05:34] and people have 400GB hard drives so that's not a big deal [05:34] erm, laptops don't [05:34] well not all the people === illovae [n=illovae@lns-bzn-58-82-251-207-197.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:35] some people have 30GB drives and 256MB RAM [05:35] I have 40G in my laptop [05:35] I would not mind if it would stop indexing if the space gets tight [05:35] same here [05:35] and we want to support them as well [05:35] heno: it uses no (noticeable) CPU [05:35] heno: because it only uses idle cycles [05:35] what about default off, with a note on first login about how to enable it? [05:36] but that still makes the machine noisy, both on laptops and desktops [05:36] and will be seen as a regression [05:36] jdstrand: i think these kind of popups are usually just ignored by users [05:36] asac: I ignore tracker anyway :) [05:36] hello o/ [05:36] asac++ [05:36] jdstrand: if we start down that path we'll soon have 10 pop-ups at boot :) [05:37] Amaranth, sure you don't live in south america or africa [05:37] heno: so throttle it [05:37] sourcercito: you can't even _install_ with 256MB [05:37] most people here don't have hard drives that big === dinda [n=dinda@c-98-201-40-39.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:37] yes, i've a 5gb partition to ubuntu, but still [05:37] sourcercito: and the size of the index is relative to the size of the stuff on your computer [05:37] asac, heno: I see your point, but question that there is a sane default. It is indeed useful for some of our users, but not others. [05:38] so if you have a small HD you have a small index [05:38] Amaranth: not if I had lots of small files, or? [05:38] mvo's proposal of stopping indexing when space gets tight is good IMHO [05:38] asac, heno: could default off with an entry in Ubuntu Help Center [05:38] jdstrand: riht, but I think the notice on first search makes more sense [05:38] kwwii: well it's not a linear thing [05:38] don't we have other features already that are enabled/disabled based on hardware profiles? [05:38] asac: yes, compiz [05:38] laptop mode comes to mind [05:38] asac: and gnome-power-manager [05:39] heno: ah-- so it is default off, then when they try to use it the first time, turn it on? [05:39] so in case lots of people complain in beta we might wanna think about extending this for tracker? [05:39] what about making the checkbox to turn off indexing actually stop the deamon from running? === mvo wonders if it could even free some of its index if space gets tight === PriceChild [n=pricechi@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.student.PriceChild] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:39] jdstrand: right [05:39] asac: compiz is easier [05:39] heno: yes please. [05:39] asac: it's just a matter of checking features, not performance [05:39] another idea would be to show up a tray icon that shows "now indexing" .. which you could right click and say "stop this" ? [05:40] also checking performance before starting compiz would be useful too [05:40] heno: I think an 'are you sure' type of thing with a warning about CPU and disk space might be a good idea to think about [05:40] heno: on that first try [05:40] mvo: afaik all the hardware it actually is capable of running on is fast enough to run it somewhat decently [05:40] mvo: i used it on a Radeon 7500 [05:40] asac: +1, I'd love to be able to stop/pause trackerd when I am playing a game for example [05:40] Amaranth: true, I the slowest I have is a i830 and even that is okish [05:41] popey: other than the kernel bug with io scheduling you should not need to [05:41] I don't want it to run somewhat decently, I want my desktop to *always* be super-responsive :) [05:41] "hah" [05:41] popey: it is explicitly designed to use only what is idle [05:41] Linux should be able to deliver that [05:41] my core2duo 2.6GHz gets murdered by trackerd [05:41] popey: in feisty it worked fine :) [05:41] unless we shoot ourselves in the foot [05:41] popey: like i said, it uses all available _idle_ cpu [05:41] popey: so if you play a game it scales down === Rinchen [n=joey@canonical/launchpad/pdpc.supporter.professional.rinchen] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:42] Amaranth: I understand the theory, but practically it doesn't work like that, it slows down every machine I own, all over 2GHz, most multicore [05:42] only the IO is a problem here [05:42] a problem is a problem, no matter what the technical reason [05:42] this is apparently only a problem with upgrades [05:42] indeed, and I'd still like to be able to pause it :) [05:42] and it seems to be something new that was introduced by 2.6.22 [05:43] so hopefully we'll figure out why === beuno [n=beuno@44-111-231-201.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:43] ok, cool. on that note, let's take it to the mailing list [05:43] cool [05:43] shall swe look at the other Critical beta bugs? [05:43] can we take a look at bug 139403 [05:44] Launchpad bug 139403 in network-manager "network-manager should stop managing any interface configured in /etc/network/interfaces" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/139403 [05:44] i would like to know if anyone has any hard reasons not to do that? [05:44] pleaes read summary === calc has another network manager issue to bring up, not sure if a bug is already filed on it === ogra is 100% for it [05:45] provided that u-m removes auto/dhcp interfaces from /e/n/i on upgrades, and the installer does not write the stanzas for desktop isntallations [05:45] that does seem to be causing a lot of bug reports [05:45] pitti: look at bug === ogra was 100% for it when Keybuk suggested it ages ago :) [05:45] pitti: the new suggestion is to make postinst do that [05:46] (not u-m) [05:46] asac: urgh [05:46] so people that now use network manager for auto dhcp will still use it [05:46] another suggestion, have network manager not kill connections on upgrade... (not sure if that is known and/or fixed yet) [05:46] while those that have n-m uniinstalled won't see a regression === jono [n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:46] asac: 3. needs to be extended to '... for desktop installations' [05:47] asac: since we do want it on servers, CLI, or expert installations [05:47] pitti: 3. desktop installer should not add auto dhcp interfaces. === mc44 [n=mc44@unaffiliated/mc44] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:47] ^^^ [05:47] its already in there ... isnt it? [05:47] asac: right, but it should do that for above cases [05:47] oh, *only* ubiquity? [05:47] pitti: ok but it shouldn't install nm for those as well [05:47] fine then [05:47] pitti: no idea ... i think it should depend on whether nm is installed or not [05:48] right [05:48] then we just need to make damn sure that n-m actually works and always brings up eth0 on boot === pitti is not convinced that it is that robust yet === Zic [n=Zic@ubuntu/member/zic] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:49] i have not many bugs about wired [05:49] asac: what's your experience with that so far? [05:49] usually wired works ... if wired doesn't work ifupdown mostly fails as well [05:49] what people with two interfaces? that is not supported by n-m, right? so this needs to be carfully checked [05:49] asac: when I trawled over the n-m bugs the last time, there were a lot of that kind, but I guess this was often due to the 'tears down ifaces on startup' but [05:49] s/t$/g/ [05:49] pitti: right [05:50] mvo: those need an e/n/i entry mostly AFAICS [05:50] what we see now is either "tears down" ... or now ingutsy "nm shows some random interface because we have to active, managed connections" [05:50] mvo: e. g. my secondary interface has static configuration [05:50] right, so the thing that removes stuff needs to check for this, right? [05:50] a lot of nvidia based desktop motherboards have two nics on them, btw [05:50] @schedule Paris [05:50] Schedule for Europe/Paris: 17 Sep 14:00: IRC Council | 18 Sep 18:00: Kernel Team | 19 Sep 14:00: Edubuntu | 19 Sep 22:00: Xubuntu Developers | 20 Sep 14:00: Desktop Team Development | 21 Sep 14:00: MOTU Team [05:50] pitti: and if people don't have a network they most likely go to network-admin ... and once they configured the interface there it will be just ifupdown [05:51] which doesn't work atm because if you configure just dhcp there, network manager will still manage it [05:51] good point [05:51] asac: but with that, you'll lose the possibility to switch to a wifi, don't you? [05:51] no [05:51] thats the good thing [05:52] you go to network-admin .. configure eth as dhcp ... then you still can use nm for wireless [05:52] asac: but I don't see how "don't touch ifupdown connections" and "use wifi although there is an eth configured" mix? [05:52] unless you configure wirelss as "not-roaming" there as well [05:52] pitti: please rephrase :) ? [05:52] ok, I plug my laptop into my ethernet and have auto eth0/dhcp [05:53] (in /e/n/i) [05:53] yeah [05:53] then I unplug it, and want to use my wifi [05:53] but since n-m doesn't manage eth0 any more, the default route won't be torn down for eth [05:53] (and neither the dhclient) [05:53] i. e. everyone who every uses network-admin will be stuck there [05:54] oh, you can switch it back to 'roaming' [05:54] what happens if you have two default routes? [05:54] for me it worked [05:54] asac: you lose [05:54] asac: it's a race condition, from my experience [05:54] sometimes it works, sometimes you lose all packets [05:55] it's bit of a corner case, yes, but so far these cases were handled pretty well because n-m actually understood /e/n/i [05:55] I know, choosing between two evils :/ [05:55] pitti: understood is a bit exaggerated [05:55] it broke ifupdown :) === hagi [n=hagi@adsl-84-227-89-241.adslplus.ch] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:56] IOW, once someone configures "dhcp" in network-admin for eth0, n-m will just go to 'static configuration' and not do anything any more [05:56] might be a bit confusing [05:56] he? [05:56] who? [05:56] it will not go to static ... it will just stop to manage it [05:57] asac: right, but it won't switch interfaces either because you have a manual configuration [05:57] can't dhclient listen to hal events? [05:57] unless, of course, n-m continues to actually parse and interpret /e/n/i, but I thought you wanted to get rid of that [05:57] asac: in what way? [05:58] remove/add route? === pitti does not understand; why should dhclient do that? [05:58] after all, dhclient *is* the bit that actually configures routes... [05:58] i don't mean dhclient .. i mean ifupdown mechanism [05:58] asac, you could use route directly :) === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mc44 [n=mc44@unaffiliated/mc44] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:59] asac: there's no ifupdownd or something that could do that; what should it do? [05:59] pitti, he wants to remove the defaultroute for that interface if i understood right [05:59] but keep the interface as is [05:59] asac: if we want n-m to override ifupdown routes, then we could make ifupdown use defualtroutes with metric 1 [06:00] pitti: how would that look like? [06:00] and keep n-m use metric 0 routes [06:00] so that n-m's routes win [06:00] yes that sounds reasonable then === asac has not idea about metrics === dinda [n=dinda@c-98-201-40-39.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [06:00] asac: just "metric 1" option [06:01] asac: just think about it as 'priority' [06:01] yeah ... were would such a feature be added? [06:01] the lower one wins [06:01] We've been going for an hour; let's declare the meeting done and continue this wherever [06:01] Thanks everyone [06:01] pitti: ok i will add that to the bug and subscribe you [06:02] thanks === mvo goes for dinner now [06:02] thanks everyone [06:02] thanks [06:02] thanks - see you tomorrow === mathiaz [n=mathiaz@ubuntu/member/mathiaz] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] [06:03] bye === kwwii [n=kwwii@p5495561D.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation] === BenC [n=bcollins@debian/developer/bcollins] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Bye"] === sourcercito [n=sourcer@pc-178-169-214-201.cm.vtr.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] === mc44 [n=mc44@unaffiliated/mc44] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === geser [i=mb@ubuntu/member/geser] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Liberate] === pedro_ [n=pedro@pc-4-217-44-190.cm.vtr.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Leaving"] === Keybuk [n=scott@quest.netsplit.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting [""] === hagi_ [n=hagi@adsl-84-227-140-245.adslplus.ch] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508D83F0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === tck [n=tck@213-202-129-170.bas502.dsl.esat.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvoltage [n=highvolt@dsl-241-171-243.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mc44 [n=mc44@unaffiliated/mc44] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === highvolt1ge [n=highvolt@dsl-243-5-91.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === hoora40 [i=hoora@gateway/tor/x-24c4f68f43aa5f75] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === joebob777as7 [n=joe@71-220-220-109.eugn.qwest.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Paddy_EIRE [n=patrick@78.144.81.237] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Lure_ [n=lure@89-212-18-142.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ds500ss [n=marcel@vrs-c-16f6f.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ds500ss [n=marcel@vrs-c-16f6f.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === toutouff [n=nicolas@gov91-1-82-234-90-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === MacSlow [n=mirco@unaffiliated/macslow] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ompaul [n=ompaul@freenode/staff/gnewsense.ompaul] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === SpudDogg [n=spuddogg@c-76-109-159-194.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === SpudDogg [n=spuddogg@c-76-109-159-194.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lbm [n=lbm@0x555373ab.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === _czessi [n=Czessi@dslb-088-073-046-080.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Paddy_EIRE [n=patrick@78.144.81.237] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === avoine [n=avoine@modemcable003.251-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === Mamarok [n=myriam_r@83.222.147.62] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === illovae [n=illovae@lns-bzn-22-82-249-89-84.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === illovae [n=illovae@lns-bzn-22-82-249-89-84.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === illovae_ [n=illovae@82.249.89.84] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508D83F0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Paddy_EIRE [n=patrick@78.144.81.237] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Dragon64 [n=DragonBo@74-140-65-214.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Seveas [n=seveas@ubuntu/member/seveas] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === toutouff [n=nicolas@gov91-1-82-234-90-217.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === gnomefreak [n=gnomefre@ubuntu/member/gnomefreak] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === illovae [n=illovae@lns-bzn-22-82-249-89-84.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === illovae_ [n=illovae@lns-bzn-22-82-249-89-84.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ph8 [n=ph8@85.234.155.91] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rtg_ [n=rtg@rtg.theglobal.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === rtg_ [n=rtg@rtg.theglobal.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Ex-Chat"] === bigon [i=bigon@ubuntu/member/bigon] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === astro76 [n=james@unaffiliated/astro76] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === effie_jayx [n=l3ap@ubuntu/member/effie-jayx] has joined #ubuntu-meeting