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[03:55] <Keybuk> silence on the ML :-/
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[06:48] <AlexExtreme> Keybuk: I'll try to look through your mail properly, I only skimmed it as I've been quite busy
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[08:43] <Jc2k> hi all
[08:46] <Jc2k> i'm working on some things for Conduit and one of the Ubuntu sync specs. right now i'm trying to make plug and play more "magic". for a lot of target devices, they are only useful once a ppp session has been established over their USB serial connections. its similar for windows mobile syncing too, various user space daemons need starting.
[08:47] <Jc2k> does this sound like a good match to upstart?
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[09:09] <Keybuk> to some degree, yes
[09:09] <Jc2k> \o/
[09:09] <Jc2k> do i sense a but :)
[09:09] <Jc2k> or a "but watch out for"
=== Jc2k puts on his debian hat and tries to setup upstart
[09:09] <Keybuk> determining direction of Upstart
[09:11] <Jc2k> googling that leads to your blog :P
[09:13] <Keybuk> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/upstart-devel/2007-September/000463.html
[09:18] <Jc2k> interesting read
[09:20] <Jc2k> what do you suggest?
[09:20] <Keybuk> as to which regard?
[09:21] <ion_> I have tried to read that, but not succeeded so far because of problems with concentration. :-(
[09:22] <Jc2k> Keybuk: sorry, in my case for Conduit. am i ok starting with upstart now?
[09:23] <Jc2k> if you are planning to rework it.
[09:23] <Keybuk> Upstart probably doesn't support the features you would need to use it now
[09:23] <Jc2k> ahh
[09:24] <Jc2k> big shame :(
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=== Keybuk honestly doesn't know what to do
[09:27] <Jc2k> :(
[09:31] <Jc2k> i'm probably going to have to resort to py-upstart because i need something to manage my pppd and other daemons...
[09:32] <Keybuk> py-upstart?
[09:33] <Jc2k> :) some home grown hack that would suck on HAL and manage services for me..
=== Jc2k wishes he had an idea stick to poke Keybuk with
[09:34] <Keybuk> don't you just want Network Manager?
[09:34] <Jc2k> i dont think so
[09:34] <Jc2k> certainly not the current network manager
[09:35] <Jc2k> for example, if i plug in my phone it registers as a network connection and my wifi cuts out
[09:35] <Jc2k> yay \o/
[09:35] <Keybuk> yes
[09:35] <Keybuk> that's what NM does
[09:35] <Jc2k> and i dont think the current NM can auto start ppp for the older phones
[09:36] <Jc2k> also in the windows mobile 5 case, i'd like to start sync-engine.. so its about more than bringing up network interfaces
[09:37] <Keybuk> perhaps you have ideas about which direction to take Upstart?
[09:38] <Jc2k> to be honest im just a hapless noob who use to excitedly read your blog :)
[09:40] <Jc2k> ok, i'll describe how i'd imagined this all working.. see if it inspires?
[09:42] <Jc2k> i plugin my windows mobile, usb driver kicks in, hal rules detect WM5, magic, upstart starts the two user space daemons needed, new hal entry is created "Windows Mobile Sync Endpoint" or something. this is picked up by Conduit/OpenSync which can just sync.. instead of the user having about 10 commands to execute. then i disconnect the phone and upstart kills off the daemons
[09:42] <Jc2k> same process for pppd stuff really
[09:43] <Jc2k> both types of device are an absolute horror for a new user to get to grips with
[09:44] <Jc2k> this could magicify it i think, and create a lot nicer user experience..
[09:46] <Jc2k> implementation wise this is a horror of course
=== Jc2k ponders
[09:52] <Jc2k> what about using XML in messages/events?
=== ion_ thinks he just vomited a bit.
[09:53] <Jc2k> yah
[09:53] <Jc2k> me too
[10:02] <Jc2k> Keybuk: can i make an fdi file that triggers an event in upstart?
[10:02] <Jc2k> and when a device is removed too..
[11:48] <Keybuk> dunno
[11:48] <Keybuk> the two ways of thinking about this are
[11:48] <Keybuk> 1) the upstart job definition specifies hal objects in some magic way, which listens to d-bus messages
[11:49] <Keybuk> 2) the hal fdi files specify upstart events in some way
[11:49] <Keybuk>   and the job definitions specify the upstart event
[11:49] <Keybuk> neither seems quite right
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