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| Ziroday | @schedule Singapore | 06:22 |
|---|---|---|
| ubotu | Schedule for Asia/Singapore: 20 Sep 20:00: Desktop Team Development | 21 Sep 20:00: MOTU Team | 25 Sep 03:00: Screencast Team | 25 Sep 23:00: Server Team meeting | 26 Sep 00:00: Kernel Team | 26 Sep 03:00: Technical Board | 06:22 |
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| kraut | moin | 08:55 |
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| kwwii | hi Keybuk | 01:53 |
| Keybuk | Heya | 01:55 |
| Keybuk | just putting together the agenda so I can mail it out :-) | 01:55 |
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| pitti | hi | 01:59 |
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| Keybuk | just waiting for iwj I think | 02:01 |
| pitti | he just pung in #distro | 02:02 |
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| Keybuk | ah, my canonical connection appears stoned | 02:02 |
| === Keybuk kicks it | ||
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| kwwii | i pung him | 02:03 |
| Keybuk | #startmeetingt | 02:03 |
| Keybuk | #startmeeting | 02:03 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 11:52. The chair is Keybuk. | 02:03 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] | 02:03 |
| Keybuk | Ok, this should be a fairly short one since there weren't any agenda items to add | 02:03 |
| Keybuk | did anybody have anything they wanted to add to my mail I just sent out | 02:04 |
| Keybuk | currently we just have | 02:04 |
| Keybuk | * Ideas for hardy | 02:04 |
| kwwii | I have one thing to add about some artwork packages will still need to change | 02:04 |
| pitti | syncing and reading mail... | 02:04 |
| kwwii | but nothing major...just s/feisty/gutsy | 02:04 |
| kwwii | it just occured to me yesterday that this was a problem | 02:05 |
| Keybuk | kwwii: ok, let's cover that briefly; what are the packages? | 02:05 |
| iwj | Err, I put some agenda items in my activity report and they don't seem to be there. Some of them have been dealt with ... | 02:05 |
| Keybuk | [TOPIC] some artwork packages still need to change feisty -> gutsy | 02:05 |
| MootBot | New Topic: some artwork packages still need to change feisty -> gutsy | 02:05 |
| kwwii | feisty-session-splash, feisty-gdm-theme and such | 02:05 |
| kwwii | as I have started taking over more of the packages themselves I did not realize it until yesterday, so I have to make sure that I can still get them in | 02:06 |
| pitti | kwwii: that sounds fine | 02:06 |
| kwwii | the one package which included different artwork was changed yesterday | 02:06 |
| pitti | kwwii: subject to my scrutinizing, of course :) | 02:06 |
| kwwii | pitti: cool, when I am done with the changes I will show them to you first | 02:07 |
| pitti | kwwii: sounds like some NEWing is in order there, but that shouldn't be a problem either | 02:07 |
| kwwii | pitti: yeah, in the future (at UDS) I will discuss this and figure out how to make the package non-release dependent | 02:07 |
| kwwii | silly to use a release name in the package and have to make it new every time | 02:07 |
| kwwii | dholbach and I agreed to discuss this at UDS | 02:08 |
| Keybuk | I think the original intent was that we'd change the theme for each release | 02:08 |
| Keybuk | so people should be able to retain the old one | 02:08 |
| dholbach | and that people can install their 'feisty theme' if they like that better, even if they run hardy | 02:08 |
| kwwii | hrm, right | 02:09 |
| pitti | kwwii: NEWing is no problem and not much work, I just need to be told so that it happens quickly | 02:09 |
| pitti | s/I/any archive admin/ | 02:09 |
| kwwii | pitti: I'll get it done right away then | 02:09 |
| kwwii | I also have a new package for universe but that does not seem to be such a problem | 02:10 |
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| Keybuk | [AGREED] Ken and Daniel to discuss theme package naming at UDS | 02:10 |
| MootBot | AGREED received: Ken and Daniel to discuss theme package naming at UDS | 02:10 |
| Keybuk | [ACTION] kwwii to fix package names and notify pitti beforehand to aid NEW processing | 02:10 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: kwwii to fix package names and notify pitti beforehand to aid NEW processing | 02:10 |
| Keybuk | ok, Ian: sorry missed your sl-modem-daemon agenda item (I think the QA one is being discussed by mail adequately?) | 02:11 |
| iwj | QA> Yes. | 02:11 |
| Keybuk | [TOPIC] sl-modem-daemon has stopped working since Tribe 5 | 02:11 |
| MootBot | New Topic: sl-modem-daemon has stopped working since Tribe 5 | 02:11 |
| iwj | So I just wanted to ask kernel guys if they had any ideas ? | 02:11 |
| Keybuk | I'm not sure we have any kernel guys here :) | 02:11 |
| iwj | Or thoughts about how to go about debugging it. | 02:11 |
| iwj | Hmm. | 02:11 |
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| Keybuk | probably best to follow up on #ubuntu-kernel or the mailing list, and grab a developer directly | 02:12 |
| iwj | OK, I'll try that. | 02:12 |
| Keybuk | did you try the newer version of sl-modem-daemon you talked about | 02:12 |
| iwj | Not yet. | 02:12 |
| Keybuk | ok | 02:12 |
| iwj | But I did retest tribe 5, and it still works. | 02:12 |
| Keybuk | does anyone else here have a modem that has worked with sl-modem-daemon that they could use to help Ian test? | 02:12 |
| Keybuk | iwj: that's something, at least :-) | 02:12 |
| pitti | soren has one | 02:13 |
| iwj | You don't need an actual phone line for this particular bug. | 02:13 |
| pitti | and TeTeT has two | 02:13 |
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| soren | huh? | 02:13 |
| pitti | they both helped me with testing the new restricted-manager magic for it | 02:13 |
| iwj | soren: Let's talk about it out of the meeting. I'd like a bit of help with sl-modem-daemon testing. | 02:13 |
| pitti | soren: I saw your pci modalias! (Muhhahaha) | 02:14 |
| soren | *g* | 02:14 |
| soren | iwj: Right, I think I have some logs for you that might help. | 02:14 |
| TeTeT | iwj: ping me any time, we have a quasi modem line in the Montreal h/w cert lab | 02:14 |
| Keybuk | [ACTION] iwj to talk to kernel developers about sl-modem-daemon breakage | 02:14 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: iwj to talk to kernel developers about sl-modem-daemon breakage | 02:14 |
| Keybuk | [ACTION] iwj to test newer sl-modem-daemon to see whether that fixes the problem | 02:14 |
| iwj | TeTeT: OK, are you on #ubuntu-devel ? We can talk there. | 02:14 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: iwj to test newer sl-modem-daemon to see whether that fixes the problem | 02:14 |
| Keybuk | [ACTION] iwj to rope in soren and TeTeT to help testing | 02:14 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: iwj to rope in soren and TeTeT to help testing | 02:14 |
| Keybuk | ok | 02:15 |
| Keybuk | [TOPIC] Ideas for hardy | 02:15 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Ideas for hardy | 02:15 |
| Mithrandir | iwj wins at action items. | 02:15 |
| Keybuk | Thanks to everyone who included their Hardy ideas in their activity summary e-mail | 02:15 |
| Keybuk | I'd like to go down the list quickly to generate some discussion | 02:16 |
| Keybuk | prefix your idea with "[IDEA] " so mootbot can pick it up <g> | 02:16 |
| Keybuk | kwwii: you first | 02:16 |
| kwwii | [IDEA] update the widget theme | 02:17 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: update the widget theme | 02:17 |
| kwwii | [IDEA] straighten out the process for artwork | 02:17 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: straighten out the process for artwork | 02:17 |
| kwwii | [IDEA] create a color palette and clear rules of use | 02:17 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: create a color palette and clear rules of use | 02:17 |
| pitti | artwork process: is it so complicated ATM? | 02:17 |
| kwwii | pitti: well, we have no clear process and lots of different versions which all have their own rules | 02:18 |
| kwwii | pitti: also, it would be good to be able to get the community involved again | 02:18 |
| pitti | kwwii: ah, as "set of packages we need to update", and check whether we can merge some of them, etc.? | 02:18 |
| kwwii | pitti: right, and on top of that decide which versions have total community control, and which not | 02:19 |
| kwwii | pitti: and in addition set clear rules for evolving the look instead of just recreating the wheel every time | 02:19 |
| kwwii | ubuntu is very stagnant, no wonder that the community finds it hard to contribute | 02:19 |
| kwwii | that brings us to the second idea, of creating a palette and clear rules for the artwork | 02:20 |
| Keybuk | kwwii: one of the things I've talked about already with Mark is the idea of using the LTS as the time we bring in a bold new look, and then evolve it over the next non-LTS releases until a new look for the next LTS | 02:20 |
| kwwii | until now, we have light brown and dark brown | 02:20 |
| Keybuk | that would seem to fit in with your idea? | 02:20 |
| kwwii | Keybuk: yes, it does | 02:20 |
| kwwii | in some ways, the most important part of this is to know exactly what we can change (from mark) | 02:21 |
| kwwii | as for the widget theme, we would need some technical people to help out | 02:21 |
| Keybuk | ok, thanks | 02:22 |
| Keybuk | iwj: you're next :) | 02:22 |
| iwj | [IDEA] Dialup support should be better | 02:22 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: Dialup support should be better | 02:22 |
| iwj | [IDEA] Easy reinstallation: separate /home and a bit of migration support | 02:22 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: Easy reinstallation: separate /home and a bit of migration support | 02:22 |
| iwj | [IDEA] Encrypted swap (already!) | 02:22 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: Encrypted swap (already!) | 02:22 |
| iwj | [IDEA] Disk encryption by default on laptops | 02:23 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: Disk encryption by default on laptops | 02:23 |
| iwj | [IDEA] Declarative diversions | 02:23 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: Declarative diversions | 02:23 |
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| iwj | [IDEA] Better conffile messing support | 02:23 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: Better conffile messing support | 02:23 |
| Keybuk | iwj: could you expand a little on "easy reinstallation" and "declarative diversions" ? | 02:23 |
| iwj | Easy reinstallation - separate /home and some migration of installed packages or other key bits of system configuration. We cannot assume our users are competent to fix a broken system or a failed upgrade, so we need to make reinstallation without loss of data easy. | 02:23 |
| kwwii | iwj: excellent idea | 02:24 |
| iwj | Declarative diversions for dpkg. This will get rid of a whole class of packaging bugs, and make Robert Collin's conflicts/replaces checker much more effective. For the usual reasons this has a longish deployment schedule: if we implement it for hardy we'll be able to use it in anger in hardy+1 and of course eventually Debian will adopt it and it will become the new default. | 02:24 |
| cjwatson | separate /home> we need to have an argument about this ;-) it's come up many times before and there are reasons we haven't done it | 02:24 |
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| cjwatson | (not necessarily insuperable but they can't just be brushed aside IMO) | 02:24 |
| Keybuk | cjwatson: if only we got everyone together in one room :p | 02:24 |
| iwj | cjwatson: I know, but I think the benefits outweigh the alleged disadvantages on modern systems with big disks. | 02:24 |
| Keybuk | . o O { lvm by default makes the issues go away } | 02:25 |
| iwj | I think we should talk about it at UDS. | 02:25 |
| cjwatson | sure | 02:25 |
| cjwatson | Keybuk: and brings in so many new ones ... | 02:25 |
| Keybuk | iwj: what does a declarative diversion mean? | 02:25 |
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| Keybuk | or, I should say, what would one look like? | 02:25 |
| iwj | It means your package has a control file DEBIAN/diversions instead of your maintscripts calling dpkg-divert to edit a database in /var. | 02:26 |
| Mithrandir | which means people won't try to add diversions in postinsts and similar. | 02:26 |
| iwj | There are all sorts of braindamages which will be impossible to perpetrate :-). | 02:26 |
| Mithrandir | declarative diversions sounds like a great thing to have. | 02:27 |
| cjwatson | can you lump in declarative alternatives with that? | 02:27 |
| pitti | ++, as with declarative obsolete conffiles | 02:27 |
| iwj | cjwatson: Possibly. Hmm. Worth thinking about the two together, at least. | 02:27 |
| cjwatson | last time I checked there were eight different systems in routine use for where to call update-alternatives in your maintainer scripts | 02:27 |
| Mithrandir | cjwatson: "nice" | 02:28 |
| iwj | Let me make a separate idea for it so it doesn't get lost. | 02:28 |
| iwj | [IDEA] Declarative alternatives | 02:28 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: Declarative alternatives | 02:28 |
| cjwatson | (not helped by policy not providing any guidance at all on the topic) | 02:28 |
| iwj | Tempting to say [IDEA] Alternative declaratives | 02:28 |
| Keybuk | iwj: excellent! | 02:29 |
| Keybuk | pitti: your turn | 02:29 |
| pitti | [IDEA] Complete redesign of the restricted-manager code | 02:29 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: Complete redesign of the restricted-manager code | 02:29 |
| pitti | The initial design was never meant to get all the features and extensions bolted on that we use it for nowadays: non-module related handlers, KDE frontend, notifications, cooperation with compiz settings, etc. The current code makes it a pain to add new features or fix bugs. | 02:29 |
| pitti | not exactly sexy, but we won't get around it, I'm afraid | 02:29 |
| pitti | [IDEA] Find/tweak/create a backup solution that doesn't suck and is adequate for home users, as well as flexible enough for dudes like us. | 02:30 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: Find/tweak/create a backup solution that doesn't suck and is adequate for home users, as well as flexible enough for dudes like us. | 02:30 |
| pitti | [IDEA] Improve synchronization between Evolutions, cellphones, PDAs, etc. | 02:30 |
| pitti | (everything that speaks SyncML for now). | 02:30 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: Improve synchronization between Evolutions, cellphones, PDAs, etc. | 02:30 |
| pitti | (stolen from the IdeaPool) | 02:30 |
| pitti | and finally something longer-term: | 02:30 |
| pitti | [IDEA] Start a desktop application for a decision tree based guided bug filing. | 02:31 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: Start a desktop application for a decision tree based guided bug filing. | 02:31 |
| pitti | We started discussing this on last UDS (UbuntuSpec:smart-bugreporting-tool) and I do not expect to get it done by Hardy, but we should start on it. | 02:31 |
| pitti | EOL | 02:31 |
| Mithrandir | pitti: backup> can we throw in "and you don't trust the host/medium you're backing on to" to the list of features? | 02:31 |
| Mithrandir | trust as in security-trust, not reliability-trust. | 02:32 |
| pitti | Mithrandir: nothing spec'ed yet :) | 02:32 |
| pitti | Mithrandir: I see what you are up to, yes (not that I would use crypto myself, I quite trust my colo server) | 02:32 |
| Mithrandir | so I do a buddy backup to a friend's machine, and him to mine and we wouldn't be able to read each other's backups. | 02:32 |
| pitti | Mithrandir: -> UDS spec, I'd say, but great idea | 02:33 |
| Keybuk | pitti: ok, make a note of Tollef's concerns | 02:33 |
| iwj | backups++ | 02:33 |
| pitti | but in general, the lack of a good backup solution has nagged me for years | 02:33 |
| Mithrandir | heck, I use encrypted file systems on racked servers too, disks die and I don't trust the disk manufacturers. :-) | 02:33 |
| pitti | s/good/one that doesn't suck for me/ | 02:33 |
| === pitti currently uses rsnapshot plus rsync to get them to the server | ||
| Mithrandir | backuppc isn't too bad, but it's pull, not push. | 02:34 |
| Mithrandir | but we probably don't need to look at all the options here. :-) | 02:34 |
| pitti | Keybuk: note> done | 02:34 |
| pitti | Mithrandir: right, pull sucks | 02:34 |
| pitti | (for my use case, anyway) | 02:34 |
| pitti | rsnapshot is pull for remote op, too | 02:35 |
| Keybuk | ok, and Mithrandir? (though you may have already communicated your mobile ideas to mdz) | 02:35 |
| Mithrandir | [IDEA] get bluetooth fixed | 02:35 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: get bluetooth fixed | 02:35 |
| Mithrandir | [IDEA] investigate webkit for mobile | 02:35 |
| Mithrandir | [IDEA] get conduit into shape so we can use it for syncing anything to anything | 02:35 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: investigate webkit for mobile | 02:35 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: get conduit into shape so we can use it for syncing anything to anything | 02:35 |
| Mithrandir | [IDEA] pam_keyring or similar, by default? | 02:36 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: pam_keyring or similar, by default? | 02:36 |
| Mithrandir | [IDEA] UME - chroots, how to manage? | 02:36 |
| MootBot | IDEA received: UME - chroots, how to manage? | 02:36 |
| Keybuk | Mithrandir: webkit for desktop might be nice <g> | 02:36 |
| Keybuk | pitti: did you look at conduit for your syncing solution? | 02:36 |
| Mithrandir | well, yes, that too, so possibly rewrite that to "investigate webkit" | 02:36 |
| Mithrandir | there exists patches for epiphany to use webkit. | 02:37 |
| pitti | Keybuk: I haven't looked yet; last time I actually tried that stuff was over a year ago with multisync | 02:37 |
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| Keybuk | Mithrandir: yeah, I built them here a couple of days ago | 02:37 |
| seb128 | Mithrandir: we already have pam_keyring by default | 02:38 |
| Mithrandir | seb128: we do? | 02:38 |
| seb128 | Mithrandir: it's part of gnome-keyring 2.20 and gdm uses it | 02:38 |
| seb128 | Mithrandir: yes libpam-gnome-keyring | 02:39 |
| Keybuk | there's a checkbox in the gnome-keyring password dialog now isn't there? | 02:39 |
| Keybuk | [ ] Unlock keyring on login | 02:39 |
| Keybuk | or something | 02:39 |
| Keybuk | (it doesn't work if you use auto-login of course ... :p) | 02:39 |
| seb128 | right | 02:39 |
| Mithrandir | seb128: to my defence, I haven't been on a WPA network lately so I haven't been annoyed by the gnome keyring manager dialogue. | 02:39 |
| seb128 | if anybody who knows pam would like to help me to get it working with autologin that would be nice | 02:39 |
| seb128 | also integrating it with passwd should work but I didn't do the packaging changes | 02:40 |
| seb128 | so when the password is changing the keyring one is updated | 02:40 |
| cjwatson | seb128: you might want to grab Steve for that | 02:40 |
| cjwatson | (pam/autologin) | 02:40 |
| seb128 | cjwatson: right | 02:40 |
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| seb128 | http://live.gnome.org/GnomeKeyring/Pam has details also, I need to try with that, I've just been too busy | 02:41 |
| MootBot | LINK received: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeKeyring/Pam has details also, I need to try with that, I've just been too busy | 02:41 |
| seb128 | MootBot: that was not for you :p | 02:41 |
| Keybuk | ok, thanks everyone | 02:41 |
| Keybuk | any other business? | 02:42 |
| Keybuk | #endmeeting | 02:43 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 12:32. | 02:43 |
| === pitti goes to fix CD sizes | ||
| pitti | 12 MB oversizedness, without a single langpack to remove *sigh* | 02:43 |
| iwj | Keybuk: Are we going to take these [IDEA] s and turn them into a spec each ? Can I suggest that the thing on the UDS agenda should be or include a solution-neutral problem statement ? | 02:44 |
| iwj | (Less relevant for "fix this broken thing in the obvious way") | 02:45 |
| Hobbsee | pitti: we discussed this. reverse langpacks are still the way to go. *g* | 02:45 |
| Keybuk | iwj: Sorry, didn't make that clear :-) | 02:45 |
| Keybuk | The ideas will be discussed with the other team leads, and then will form the basis of the goals for UDS/Hardy - after some moderation depending on what's possible, or desirable for the LTS | 02:46 |
| Keybuk | they may form one or more specs each | 02:46 |
| iwj | Right. | 02:46 |
| Keybuk | I expect that will form the bulk of today's team leads call | 02:47 |
| === pitti ^5s his team | ||
| iwj | Oh, I need coffee! | 02:48 |
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| siretart | #help | 03:00 |
| siretart | MootBot: #help | 03:00 |
| siretart | hmmm | 03:00 |
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| === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Sep 12:00 UTC: MOTU Team | 24 Sep 19:00 UTC: Screencast Team | 25 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 25 Sep 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 25 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 26 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu | ||
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| evand | @schedule New_York | 04:50 |
| ubotu | Schedule for America/New_York: 21 Sep 08:00: MOTU Team | 24 Sep 15:00: Screencast Team | 25 Sep 11:00: Server Team meeting | 25 Sep 12:00: Kernel Team | 25 Sep 15:00: Technical Board | 26 Sep 16:00: Edubuntu | 04:50 |
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| Rinchen | anyone from the scribes team around? | 05:01 |
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