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joined #ubuntu-meeting === cyphase [n=cyphase@c-71-198-55-219.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ian_brasil [n=ian@dasasob.nokia.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === boggle [n=spindler@modemcable178.77-70-69.static.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === doko [n=doko@161.116.111.12] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === amachu [n=amachu@59.92.89.68] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === kwwii [n=kwwii@p54954096.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Keybuk [n=scott@wing-commander.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [01:53] hi Keybuk [01:55] Heya [01:55] just putting together the agenda so I can mail it out :-) === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [01:59] hi === yharrow [n=sysadmin@unaffiliated/yharrow] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === cjwatson [n=cjwatson@82-69-40-219.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === zul [n=chuck@ubuntu/member/zul] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:01] just waiting for iwj I think [02:02] he just pung in #distro === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jwendell [n=wendell@ubuntu/member/wendell] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:02] ah, my canonical connection appears stoned === Keybuk kicks it === iwj [n=ian@83.228.187.81.in-addr.arpa] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === jt__ [i=jt@nat/intel/x-f6ac28407934b6be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:03] i pung him [02:03] #startmeetingt [02:03] #startmeeting [02:03] Meeting started at 11:52. The chair is Keybuk. [02:03] Commands Available: [TOPIC] , [IDEA] , [ACTION] , [AGREED] , [LINK] , [VOTE] [02:03] Ok, this should be a fairly short one since there weren't any agenda items to add [02:04] did anybody have anything they wanted to add to my mail I just sent out [02:04] currently we just have [02:04] * Ideas for hardy [02:04] I have one thing to add about some artwork packages will still need to change [02:04] syncing and reading mail... [02:04] but nothing major...just s/feisty/gutsy [02:05] it just occured to me yesterday that this was a problem [02:05] kwwii: ok, let's cover that briefly; what are the packages? [02:05] Err, I put some agenda items in my activity report and they don't seem to be there. Some of them have been dealt with ... [02:05] [TOPIC] some artwork packages still need to change feisty -> gutsy [02:05] New Topic: some artwork packages still need to change feisty -> gutsy [02:05] feisty-session-splash, feisty-gdm-theme and such [02:06] as I have started taking over more of the packages themselves I did not realize it until yesterday, so I have to make sure that I can still get them in [02:06] kwwii: that sounds fine [02:06] the one package which included different artwork was changed yesterday [02:06] kwwii: subject to my scrutinizing, of course :) [02:07] pitti: cool, when I am done with the changes I will show them to you first [02:07] kwwii: sounds like some NEWing is in order there, but that shouldn't be a problem either [02:07] pitti: yeah, in the future (at UDS) I will discuss this and figure out how to make the package non-release dependent [02:07] silly to use a release name in the package and have to make it new every time [02:08] dholbach and I agreed to discuss this at UDS [02:08] I think the original intent was that we'd change the theme for each release [02:08] so people should be able to retain the old one [02:08] and that people can install their 'feisty theme' if they like that better, even if they run hardy [02:09] hrm, right [02:09] kwwii: NEWing is no problem and not much work, I just need to be told so that it happens quickly [02:09] s/I/any archive admin/ [02:09] pitti: I'll get it done right away then [02:10] I also have a new package for universe but that does not seem to be such a problem === geser [i=mb@ubuntu/member/geser] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:10] [AGREED] Ken and Daniel to discuss theme package naming at UDS [02:10] AGREED received: Ken and Daniel to discuss theme package naming at UDS [02:10] [ACTION] kwwii to fix package names and notify pitti beforehand to aid NEW processing [02:10] ACTION received: kwwii to fix package names and notify pitti beforehand to aid NEW processing [02:11] ok, Ian: sorry missed your sl-modem-daemon agenda item (I think the QA one is being discussed by mail adequately?) [02:11] QA> Yes. [02:11] [TOPIC] sl-modem-daemon has stopped working since Tribe 5 [02:11] New Topic: sl-modem-daemon has stopped working since Tribe 5 [02:11] So I just wanted to ask kernel guys if they had any ideas ? [02:11] I'm not sure we have any kernel guys here :) [02:11] Or thoughts about how to go about debugging it. [02:11] Hmm. === sahin_h [n=ezaz@dsl5400DBAD.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:12] probably best to follow up on #ubuntu-kernel or the mailing list, and grab a developer directly [02:12] OK, I'll try that. [02:12] did you try the newer version of sl-modem-daemon you talked about [02:12] Not yet. [02:12] ok [02:12] But I did retest tribe 5, and it still works. [02:12] does anyone else here have a modem that has worked with sl-modem-daemon that they could use to help Ian test? [02:12] iwj: that's something, at least :-) [02:13] soren has one [02:13] You don't need an actual phone line for this particular bug. [02:13] and TeTeT has two === finalbeta [n=viper@d54C6865D.access.telenet.be] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:13] huh? [02:13] they both helped me with testing the new restricted-manager magic for it [02:13] soren: Let's talk about it out of the meeting. I'd like a bit of help with sl-modem-daemon testing. [02:14] soren: I saw your pci modalias! (Muhhahaha) [02:14] *g* [02:14] iwj: Right, I think I have some logs for you that might help. [02:14] iwj: ping me any time, we have a quasi modem line in the Montreal h/w cert lab [02:14] [ACTION] iwj to talk to kernel developers about sl-modem-daemon breakage [02:14] ACTION received: iwj to talk to kernel developers about sl-modem-daemon breakage [02:14] [ACTION] iwj to test newer sl-modem-daemon to see whether that fixes the problem [02:14] TeTeT: OK, are you on #ubuntu-devel ? We can talk there. [02:14] ACTION received: iwj to test newer sl-modem-daemon to see whether that fixes the problem [02:14] [ACTION] iwj to rope in soren and TeTeT to help testing [02:14] ACTION received: iwj to rope in soren and TeTeT to help testing [02:15] ok [02:15] [TOPIC] Ideas for hardy [02:15] New Topic: Ideas for hardy [02:15] iwj wins at action items. [02:15] Thanks to everyone who included their Hardy ideas in their activity summary e-mail [02:16] I'd like to go down the list quickly to generate some discussion [02:16] prefix your idea with "[IDEA] " so mootbot can pick it up [02:16] kwwii: you first [02:17] [IDEA] update the widget theme [02:17] IDEA received: update the widget theme [02:17] [IDEA] straighten out the process for artwork [02:17] IDEA received: straighten out the process for artwork [02:17] [IDEA] create a color palette and clear rules of use [02:17] IDEA received: create a color palette and clear rules of use [02:17] artwork process: is it so complicated ATM? [02:18] pitti: well, we have no clear process and lots of different versions which all have their own rules [02:18] pitti: also, it would be good to be able to get the community involved again [02:18] kwwii: ah, as "set of packages we need to update", and check whether we can merge some of them, etc.? [02:19] pitti: right, and on top of that decide which versions have total community control, and which not [02:19] pitti: and in addition set clear rules for evolving the look instead of just recreating the wheel every time [02:19] ubuntu is very stagnant, no wonder that the community finds it hard to contribute [02:20] that brings us to the second idea, of creating a palette and clear rules for the artwork [02:20] kwwii: one of the things I've talked about already with Mark is the idea of using the LTS as the time we bring in a bold new look, and then evolve it over the next non-LTS releases until a new look for the next LTS [02:20] until now, we have light brown and dark brown [02:20] that would seem to fit in with your idea? [02:20] Keybuk: yes, it does [02:21] in some ways, the most important part of this is to know exactly what we can change (from mark) [02:21] as for the widget theme, we would need some technical people to help out [02:22] ok, thanks [02:22] iwj: you're next :) [02:22] [IDEA] Dialup support should be better [02:22] IDEA received: Dialup support should be better [02:22] [IDEA] Easy reinstallation: separate /home and a bit of migration support [02:22] IDEA received: Easy reinstallation: separate /home and a bit of migration support [02:22] [IDEA] Encrypted swap (already!) [02:22] IDEA received: Encrypted swap (already!) [02:23] [IDEA] Disk encryption by default on laptops [02:23] IDEA received: Disk encryption by default on laptops [02:23] [IDEA] Declarative diversions [02:23] IDEA received: Declarative diversions === alleeHol [n=ach@allee.mpe.mpg.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:23] [IDEA] Better conffile messing support [02:23] IDEA received: Better conffile messing support [02:23] iwj: could you expand a little on "easy reinstallation" and "declarative diversions" ? [02:23] Easy reinstallation - separate /home and some migration of installed packages or other key bits of system configuration. We cannot assume our users are competent to fix a broken system or a failed upgrade, so we need to make reinstallation without loss of data easy. [02:24] iwj: excellent idea [02:24] Declarative diversions for dpkg. This will get rid of a whole class of packaging bugs, and make Robert Collin's conflicts/replaces checker much more effective. For the usual reasons this has a longish deployment schedule: if we implement it for hardy we'll be able to use it in anger in hardy+1 and of course eventually Debian will adopt it and it will become the new default. [02:24] separate /home> we need to have an argument about this ;-) it's come up many times before and there are reasons we haven't done it === jjesse [n=jjesse@64.186.55.234] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:24] (not necessarily insuperable but they can't just be brushed aside IMO) [02:24] cjwatson: if only we got everyone together in one room :p [02:24] cjwatson: I know, but I think the benefits outweigh the alleged disadvantages on modern systems with big disks. [02:25] . o O { lvm by default makes the issues go away } [02:25] I think we should talk about it at UDS. [02:25] sure [02:25] Keybuk: and brings in so many new ones ... [02:25] iwj: what does a declarative diversion mean? === jwendell [n=wendell@ubuntu/member/wendell] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Bye"] [02:25] or, I should say, what would one look like? [02:26] It means your package has a control file DEBIAN/diversions instead of your maintscripts calling dpkg-divert to edit a database in /var. [02:26] which means people won't try to add diversions in postinsts and similar. [02:26] There are all sorts of braindamages which will be impossible to perpetrate :-). [02:27] declarative diversions sounds like a great thing to have. [02:27] can you lump in declarative alternatives with that? [02:27] ++, as with declarative obsolete conffiles [02:27] cjwatson: Possibly. Hmm. Worth thinking about the two together, at least. [02:27] last time I checked there were eight different systems in routine use for where to call update-alternatives in your maintainer scripts [02:28] cjwatson: "nice" [02:28] Let me make a separate idea for it so it doesn't get lost. [02:28] [IDEA] Declarative alternatives [02:28] IDEA received: Declarative alternatives [02:28] (not helped by policy not providing any guidance at all on the topic) [02:28] Tempting to say [IDEA] Alternative declaratives [02:29] iwj: excellent! [02:29] pitti: your turn [02:29] [IDEA] Complete redesign of the restricted-manager code [02:29] IDEA received: Complete redesign of the restricted-manager code [02:29] The initial design was never meant to get all the features and extensions bolted on that we use it for nowadays: non-module related handlers, KDE frontend, notifications, cooperation with compiz settings, etc. The current code makes it a pain to add new features or fix bugs. [02:29] not exactly sexy, but we won't get around it, I'm afraid [02:30] [IDEA] Find/tweak/create a backup solution that doesn't suck and is adequate for home users, as well as flexible enough for dudes like us. [02:30] IDEA received: Find/tweak/create a backup solution that doesn't suck and is adequate for home users, as well as flexible enough for dudes like us. [02:30] [IDEA] Improve synchronization between Evolutions, cellphones, PDAs, etc. [02:30] (everything that speaks SyncML for now). [02:30] IDEA received: Improve synchronization between Evolutions, cellphones, PDAs, etc. [02:30] (stolen from the IdeaPool) [02:30] and finally something longer-term: [02:31] [IDEA] Start a desktop application for a decision tree based guided bug filing. [02:31] IDEA received: Start a desktop application for a decision tree based guided bug filing. [02:31] We started discussing this on last UDS (UbuntuSpec:smart-bugreporting-tool) and I do not expect to get it done by Hardy, but we should start on it. [02:31] EOL [02:31] pitti: backup> can we throw in "and you don't trust the host/medium you're backing on to" to the list of features? [02:32] trust as in security-trust, not reliability-trust. [02:32] Mithrandir: nothing spec'ed yet :) [02:32] Mithrandir: I see what you are up to, yes (not that I would use crypto myself, I quite trust my colo server) [02:32] so I do a buddy backup to a friend's machine, and him to mine and we wouldn't be able to read each other's backups. [02:33] Mithrandir: -> UDS spec, I'd say, but great idea [02:33] pitti: ok, make a note of Tollef's concerns [02:33] backups++ [02:33] but in general, the lack of a good backup solution has nagged me for years [02:33] heck, I use encrypted file systems on racked servers too, disks die and I don't trust the disk manufacturers. :-) [02:33] s/good/one that doesn't suck for me/ === pitti currently uses rsnapshot plus rsync to get them to the server [02:34] backuppc isn't too bad, but it's pull, not push. [02:34] but we probably don't need to look at all the options here. :-) [02:34] Keybuk: note> done [02:34] Mithrandir: right, pull sucks [02:34] (for my use case, anyway) [02:35] rsnapshot is pull for remote op, too [02:35] ok, and Mithrandir? (though you may have already communicated your mobile ideas to mdz) [02:35] [IDEA] get bluetooth fixed [02:35] IDEA received: get bluetooth fixed [02:35] [IDEA] investigate webkit for mobile [02:35] [IDEA] get conduit into shape so we can use it for syncing anything to anything [02:35] IDEA received: investigate webkit for mobile [02:35] IDEA received: get conduit into shape so we can use it for syncing anything to anything [02:36] [IDEA] pam_keyring or similar, by default? [02:36] IDEA received: pam_keyring or similar, by default? [02:36] [IDEA] UME - chroots, how to manage? [02:36] IDEA received: UME - chroots, how to manage? [02:36] Mithrandir: webkit for desktop might be nice [02:36] pitti: did you look at conduit for your syncing solution? [02:36] well, yes, that too, so possibly rewrite that to "investigate webkit" [02:37] there exists patches for epiphany to use webkit. [02:37] Keybuk: I haven't looked yet; last time I actually tried that stuff was over a year ago with multisync === mbudde [n=mbudde@0x57344dc2.boanxx21.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:37] Mithrandir: yeah, I built them here a couple of days ago [02:38] Mithrandir: we already have pam_keyring by default [02:38] seb128: we do? [02:38] Mithrandir: it's part of gnome-keyring 2.20 and gdm uses it [02:39] Mithrandir: yes libpam-gnome-keyring [02:39] there's a checkbox in the gnome-keyring password dialog now isn't there? [02:39] [ ] Unlock keyring on login [02:39] or something [02:39] (it doesn't work if you use auto-login of course ... :p) [02:39] right [02:39] seb128: to my defence, I haven't been on a WPA network lately so I haven't been annoyed by the gnome keyring manager dialogue. [02:39] if anybody who knows pam would like to help me to get it working with autologin that would be nice [02:40] also integrating it with passwd should work but I didn't do the packaging changes [02:40] so when the password is changing the keyring one is updated [02:40] seb128: you might want to grab Steve for that [02:40] (pam/autologin) [02:40] cjwatson: right === gouki [n=gouki@ubuntu/member/gouki] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [02:41] http://live.gnome.org/GnomeKeyring/Pam has details also, I need to try with that, I've just been too busy [02:41] LINK received: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeKeyring/Pam has details also, I need to try with that, I've just been too busy [02:41] MootBot: that was not for you :p [02:41] ok, thanks everyone [02:42] any other business? [02:43] #endmeeting [02:43] Meeting finished at 12:32. === pitti goes to fix CD sizes [02:43] 12 MB oversizedness, without a single langpack to remove *sigh* [02:44] Keybuk: Are we going to take these [IDEA] s and turn them into a spec each ? Can I suggest that the thing on the UDS agenda should be or include a solution-neutral problem statement ? [02:45] (Less relevant for "fix this broken thing in the obvious way") [02:45] pitti: we discussed this. reverse langpacks are still the way to go. *g* [02:45] iwj: Sorry, didn't make that clear :-) [02:46] The ideas will be discussed with the other team leads, and then will form the basis of the goals for UDS/Hardy - after some moderation depending on what's possible, or desirable for the LTS [02:46] they may form one or more specs each [02:46] Right. [02:47] I expect that will form the bulk of today's team leads call === pitti ^5s his team [02:48] Oh, I need coffee! === jjesse [n=jjesse@64.186.55.234] has left #ubuntu-meeting [] === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Bye"] === ToonArmy [n=chris@88-105-191-76.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [03:00] #help [03:00] MootBot: #help [03:00] hmmm === kwwii [n=kwwii@p54954096.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #ubuntu-meeting ["Konversation] === Keybuk [n=scott@wing-commander.netsplit.com] has left #ubuntu-meeting [""] === Rinchen [n=joey@vc7-1-240a.dsl.netrack.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === ..[topic/#ubuntu-meeting:ubotu] : Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 21 Sep 12:00 UTC: MOTU Team | 24 Sep 19:00 UTC: Screencast Team | 25 Sep 15:00 UTC: Server Team meeting | 25 Sep 16:00 UTC: Kernel Team | 25 Sep 19:00 UTC: Technical Board | 26 Sep 20:00 UTC: Edubuntu === jsgotangco [n=JSG@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === radhios [n=radhios@unaffiliated/radhios] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === arualavi [n=Iva@84.76.94.4] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === sahin_h [n=ezaz@dsl5400DBAD.pool.t-online.hu] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === Rinchen1 [n=joey@vc7-1-240a.dsl.netrack.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === PriceChild [n=pricechi@ubuntu/member/pdpc.supporter.student.PriceChild] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === avoine [n=avoine@modemcable003.251-59-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508D808A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === j_ack_ [n=j_ack@p508D808A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === calc [n=ccheney@conr-adsl-209-169-124-200.consolidated.net] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === mgalvin [n=mgalvin@ubuntu/member/mgalvin] has joined #ubuntu-meeting === lamont [i=lamont@nat/hp/x-2a2c04d4d6cd0dac] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [04:50] @schedule New_York [04:50] Schedule for America/New_York: 21 Sep 08:00: MOTU Team | 24 Sep 15:00: Screencast Team | 25 Sep 11:00: Server Team meeting | 25 Sep 12:00: Kernel Team | 25 Sep 15:00: Technical Board | 26 Sep 16:00: Edubuntu === Lure_ [n=lure@212.103.157.37] has joined #ubuntu-meeting [05:01] anyone from the scribes team around? 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