[04:59] <terlmann> Nobody awake here but the bots :-)
[06:45] <AngelBolt> hello?
[07:16] <soc_> hi
[07:16] <soc_> someone here?
[07:30] <soc_> anyone?
[08:30] <soc_> mh?
[09:33] <lasse> Hi everybody.
[09:34] <lasse> Is there usually this much fuss about the default wallpaper?
[09:49] <troy_s> lasse: yes.
[09:49] <troy_s> lasse: In general.
[09:49] <troy_s> lasse: It is symptomatic of an absolutely garbage approach to art and design.
[09:52] <`23meg> lasse, there's been more fuss before
[09:52] <troy_s> Only over the photography of the naked people
[09:52] <troy_s> which was well overblown
[09:52] <troy_s> and quite frankly, ridiculous
[09:52] <troy_s> as it was possibly some of the more aesthetically interesting design that ubuntu has ever had.
[09:53] <`23meg> true
[09:54] <troy_s> Again, all of this rubbish would be alleviated if a simple design pattern were set into motion.
[09:54] <troy_s> People would settle back on the bikeshedding as you can tackle the issues in direct relation to the audience and goal.
[09:54] <troy_s> Which steers it away from the subjective realm of uselessness.
[10:17] <lasse> the reception hasnt been just good. I see gnome-looks has rated it under 30%. thats not very good.
[10:20] <troy_s> lassegs: Well gnome-look isn't a decent benchmark.  But 30% is probably noteworthy.
[10:21] <lassegs> troy_s: but my impression (i might be wrong, since im new in the game) is that all signs point towards the same: people generally dislike it.
[10:22] <troy_s> lassegs: I think you could argue that people generally dislike most of ubuntu's design direction.  it is in a whole new era of cra.
[10:22] <lassegs> cra?
[10:26] <troy_s> p
[10:26] <troy_s> crap
[10:26] <lassegs> i see
[10:32] <lassegs> but the solution to this must be a bigger and stronger art community. Even though art isnt software, and ie the wallpaper is probably gonna  be made by one person, it helps to have a lot of people who is backing the decision, created by their own involvement in the project. I read thru a thread on ubuntuforums, and some feel that user feedback isnt considered at all, and I find it hard to disagree, whats the argument against that? Obvio
[10:39] <troy_s> lassegs: The solution lies in 1) Knowledge / Education 2) Planning 3) Execution.
[10:40] <lassegs> i think i understand where you are heading.
[10:40] <troy_s> lassegs: The quick route is to simply hire someone with a respected and formal set of credits.
[10:40] <troy_s> lassegs:  And give them the freedom to move.  We can't be trapped in this uber-conservatism that drives most of FOSS.
[10:41] <troy_s> lassegs: It will simply fail to capture the emotional attachment of the public.
[10:41] <lassegs> troy_s: that would be a boring way of doing things :) If the final product would be the same, i would think that the community way to go is better. obviously thats harder.
[10:42] <troy_s> lassegs: The final product would _not_ be the same.
[10:42] <troy_s> lassegs: I have had the pleasure of meeting a good number of professional high level designers, and they are amazingly talented folks.  They hire the right people and the products they churn out are incredible.
[10:42] <lassegs> troy_s: same quality. I believe it can be.
[10:42] <troy_s> lassegs: I think the community at some point can certainly get there.
[10:43] <troy_s> lassegs: There has been a good display of talent and ability.
[10:43] <lassegs> troy_s: if you get many enough to participate, one in a 500 will be damian villa, a banker from spain, which you would never be able to hire because without the broad community you would never had found him
[10:44] <troy_s> lassegs: The only true solution is to _demonstrate_ it by figuring out workflows and tactics using whatever means the community can harness.
[10:44] <troy_s> lassegs: To be fair, up to this point, there hasn't been a demonstration of anything credible.
[10:44] <lassegs> troy_s: i agree. but you agree with the theory?
[10:44] <troy_s> lassegs: By far -- the best art and design work done in Free Software thus far is Diana's work.  The rest is simply eclipsed.
[10:45] <lassegs> troy_s: diana is the person behind fedora art  right?
[10:45] <troy_s> lassegs: Yes.  Again -- having the ability is one portion of the puzzle.  The other is execution.
[10:46] <lassegs> troy_s: but look at any deviantart contest. Look at some of these contribs, if you could get the same amount of people (amateurs mostly), you would end up with a 5% stunning unique work...
[10:46] <troy_s> 5%?
[10:46] <troy_s> lol
[10:46] <troy_s> oh you mean of a given number of contributors.
[10:47] <lassegs> yeah.
[10:47] <lassegs> sorry
[10:47] <troy_s> so of 100, 5 -- probably correct.
[10:47] <troy_s> again though, that is strictly speaking ability.
[10:47] <lassegs> what the excact number is isnt important
[10:47] <troy_s> the other portion is harnessing it in a 'smart' direction
[10:47] <troy_s> which requires some sort of formal approach
[10:47] <troy_s> again -- it takes us all back to the simple keystones of solid design -- audience and goal.
[10:48] <lassegs> yeah. you gotta have some sort of arrangement where it can ultimatly decided on the top, but with user input.
[10:48] <troy_s> 'form and function' is often heralded as an end all -- which is just symptomatic of a general lack of understanding and knowledge.
[10:48] <troy_s> form and function is _always_ tied to audience.
[10:48] <troy_s> for example, if you boiled a car down to 'function'
[10:48] <troy_s> you would end up with something that might be 'space' 'speed' etc.
[10:49] <lassegs> youve been stressing this to me for some time now. i agree.
[10:49] <troy_s> and if you hit an 'optimal' design, it most certainly wouldn't sell -- as the 'aesthetic' function is left behind.
[10:49] <lassegs> i lost you.
[10:49] <lassegs> :S
[10:49] <troy_s> lassegs: and _that_ supercedes 'public voting'.
[10:49] <troy_s> well the 'fastest' design for a car will probably not meet the aesthetic needs of a consumer
[10:49] <troy_s> hence you make trade-offs.
[10:51] <lassegs> yeah, i understand, but what is the main goal here? to make the fastest car or please the customers? A wallpaper that #ubuntu-art thinks looks good, or something the public, reviewers, grandmothers :) etc likes?
[10:51] <troy_s> lassegs: Very good question.
[10:51] <troy_s> lassegs: My gut tells me that free software is healthier with more users -- and that would dictated designing around a user who _isn't_ using free software.  That means attracting that user base and attaching them emotionally.
[10:51] <troy_s> lassegs: Out for a while.
[10:52] <lassegs> troy_s: interesting discussion. lets pick it up sometime. and I would also propose talking a little about maybe making a better framework for usercreated artwork.
[10:53] <lassegs> s/usercreated artwork/user participation/
[11:09] <soc_> hi
[11:09] <soc_> someone online?
[11:09] <lassegs> hi
[11:10] <soc_> ah ok
[11:10] <soc_> about the wallpaper ...
[11:10] <lassegs> :)
[11:10] <soc_> i don't know how much people discussed that already ...
[11:10] <soc_> is there already a decision what will ship in gutsy?
[11:11] <soc_> it seems many people like those impressive animal wallpapers, including me ...
[11:11] <lassegs> yeah. look here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Gutsy/DefaultWallpaperCriteria
[11:11] <lassegs> oh if the animals will be included as well?
[11:11] <lassegs> i dunno, kwwii said something about that on the mailing list
[11:11] <soc_> yes
[11:12] <lassegs> kwwii, didnt you?
[11:12] <kwwii> hi guys
[11:12] <lassegs> hi
[11:12] <soc_> because it be really cool, to have it as a default
[11:12] <kwwii> just got back from a weekend away
[11:12] <kwwii> reading up on the emails
[11:12] <soc_> because the first impression counts ...
[11:12] <kwwii> one thing that everyone needs to know now is that the animal backgrounds are only 1280x800
[11:12] <kwwii> I talked to the person that made them
[11:13] <soc_> really?
[11:13] <kwwii> so those are out, simple as that
[11:13] <kwwii> I love the elephant bg myself
[11:13] <lassegs> he has already made higher resolution hasnt he?
[11:13] <soc_> then i have to say that they look impressive on my 1680*1050 ...
[11:13] <soc_> i thought that too
[11:13] <lassegs> kwwii: hold on one sec.
[11:13] <kwwii> lassegs: nope, I will forward his mail
[11:13] <soc_> they _are_ 1680*1050
[11:13] <kwwii> to the list
[11:14] <soc_> if they were resized i don't know, but they look really good here
[11:14] <kwwii> lol, he sent me a mail as well on the weekend
[11:14] <kwwii> I have a lot of mail to catch up on
[11:15] <kwwii> anyway...I think that the elephant bg is awesome but looks quite dirty to use as default
[11:15] <soc_> kwwii: he has "relicensed" them as "do whatever you want"
[11:15] <kwwii> look at the comments on the wiki
[11:15] <nothlit> troy_s: http://koke.amedias.org/articles/2007/08/22/amazing-new-image-resizing-technology/
[11:15] <nothlit> theres a few open source implementations too :D including a gimp plugin
[11:15] <nothlit> http://koke.amedias.org/articles/2007/09/19/amazing-open-source-image-resizing-technology/ http://www.flickr.com/groups/452426@N25/
[11:15] <kwwii> krita has amazing stuff for resizing, if you can figure out how to use it
[11:16] <lassegs> kwwii isnt the decision made final?
[11:16] <kwwii> we spent a long time discussing this stuff and now, after the fact people complain
[11:16] <nothlit> kwwii: seam carving?
[11:16] <kwwii> I do agree that the current version is too dark and too pixelated
[11:16] <lassegs> kwwii: thank god
[11:16] <kwwii> I'll fix that tomorrow
[11:16] <soc_> what about shipping the first three of them: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3413059&postcount=144
[11:16] <kwwii> I was trying to just use a crop of the whole pic to see how it would work
[11:17] <kwwii> in any case, I will definitely include the elephant wallpaper in the default package
[11:17] <`23meg> kwwii, I hope you don't mind if I post the few lines above in the forums?
[11:17] <kwwii> so it will be the only other one installed by default
[11:17] <lassegs> kwwii: this is very good news, i think0 the community will be pleased!
[11:17] <soc_> kwwii: the real question is, what will be default?
[11:17] <soc_> something where reviewers will say: "nothing happened here"
[11:17] <kwwii> lassegs: a different version of the current wallpaper (the too dark pixelated version9
[11:18] <soc_> or something "wow, that's impressive. good idea!"
[11:18] <lassegs> kwwii: yes i understand
[11:18] <lassegs> kwwii: that is what everyone is pointing out.
[11:18] <kwwii> one more good thing to note is that as of the next version (horny heron or whatever) we will take a different design approach
[11:18] <kwwii> and we will change from the light brown on dark brown pics
[11:19] <soc_> ^hardy :-)
[11:19] <lassegs> kwwii: shazam! thank you, kwwii i love you.
[11:19] <lassegs> or whoever made those decisions
[11:19] <kwwii> ;-)
[11:19] <kwwii> that would be me
[11:20] <kwwii> it looks like we will be changing the design more radically every LTS release
[11:20] <kwwii> and in between sticking to the same design lines
[11:20] <nothlit> interesting
[11:20] <soc_> kwwii: do you already have decided, what will be the default? i think that's the more important question ...
[11:20] <kwwii> that allows us to radically change things while still allowing for an evolution of the design
[11:20] <lassegs> soc_: a revised version of the dark with brown lines
[11:21] <lassegs> soc_: thats right isnt it?
[11:21] <kwwii> soc_: an improved version of the pic now included
[11:21] <soc_> ah ... i hoped, something which would be impressive on the first impression ...
[11:21] <kwwii> in some ways I saw this coming...you have to admit that it did get people more interested in the artwork
[11:21] <lassegs> haha.
[11:22] <soc_> not something a user will see in the background dialog, AFTER he has downloaded his own ...
[11:22] <kwwii> all this talk of dawn of ubuntu being the amazing default wallpaper...it was never default
[11:23] <kwwii> if you look at the wiki page you will see what our goals were
[11:23] <kwwii> I think that we did accomplish that, for what it is worth
[11:23] <soc_> kwwii: ok, maybe it would be even better to ship without the animlas then
[11:23] <kwwii> the next release will be different, I promise
[11:23] <nothlit> i think most people switched to it right away though lol
[11:23] <soc_> it would save diskspace
[11:23] <lassegs> but kwwii have you talked anything about user participation in the artwork department, how you will manage that? copy pasting from discussion with troy 5 min before you logged on:
[11:24] <kwwii> soc_: I think that the elephant wallpaper is a great replacement for the "smooth chocolate" pic we were installing before
[11:24] <soc_> and better do a package with 3 or 4 animal wallpapers people can fetch from the repo
[11:24] <nothlit> lol, i think there needs to be an artwork faq, so things don't keep getting repeated in here
[11:24] <soc_> kwwii: yes, i think that too, but imo the first impression counts ...
[11:24] <kwwii> I do not think that we will ever have a situation in which the people on the forum get to decide which wallpaper to decide is default unless they can prove themselves first in the eyes of those above me
[11:24] <soc_> so what would speak against packaging 3 or 4 of the animals wallpapers?
[11:25] <kwwii> soc_: I will put everything else in the community wallpaper package
[11:25] <soc_> so people can just download them?
[11:25] <nothlit> apt-get them
[11:25] <kwwii> it will go in universe
[11:25] <soc_> which ones?
[11:25] <kwwii> I have now received pics from everyone, so I will submit that package tomorrow
[11:25] <kwwii> most of the pics from the wiki page
[11:26] <soc_> ah i don't see a picture ...
[11:26] <kwwii> ?
[11:27] <kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas
[11:27] <soc_> would be nice to include https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu-elephant.jpg
[11:27] <soc_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu-giraffe.jpg
[11:27] <soc_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu-lion_2.jpg
[11:27] <soc_> sorry, i meant i don't saw a package yet ...
[11:27] <kwwii> I am afraid of including too many in the default install due to the CD image size
[11:27] <soc_> yes
[11:27] <kwwii> so I will put only one in (probably elephant
[11:27] <kwwii> )
[11:28] <kwwii> although the author would rather see lion, I think
[11:28] <soc_> i meant, include those 3 in universe, so people can donwload them
[11:28] <lassegs> the elephant is obviously the strongest one of them.
[11:28] <kwwii> soc_: I will definitely include the others in the community wallpaper package
[11:28] <lassegs> the texture is amazing
[11:29] <kwwii> I was waiting for nothlit and a couple of others to submit their final works before I make the package
[11:29] <kwwii> s/make/submit
[11:29] <soc_> ahh cool
[11:29] <nothlit> kwwii: did you get my email?
[11:29] <kwwii> now I have all the pics so the package will come soon
[11:29] <kwwii> nothlit: yes
[11:29] <nothlit> ahh kk great :)
[11:29] <soc_> nice ...
[11:29] <kwwii> ;-)
[11:29] <nothlit> sorry for the delay
[11:29] <soc_> when will it be available over the repo ...
[11:29] <kwwii> no worries
[11:29] <soc_> considering that nothing has to be compiled?
[11:29] <kwwii> it will be in universe within a day or so
[11:30] <soc_> ok ...
[11:30] <kwwii> I just have to get it included in the build which takes as long as it takes to get a core dev to review it
[11:30] <soc_> ah ok
[11:30] <kwwii> I'll post debs on my website as soon as I have them built
[11:30] <soc_> so do you have already a specific decision which ones will be chosen?
[11:30] <soc_> where's your website?
[11:31] <lassegs> kwwii: i wasnt taking about making polls on ubuntuforums, but get a way to let the avarage art interested user feel that theres an easy way to post a suggustion, meaning or something like that, and be heard to some extent.
[11:31] <soc_> :-)
[11:31] <kwwii> the biggest problem in this case is that I tend to take the weekend off
[11:31] <kwwii> lassegs: the best way to be heard is to post on the wiki and the mailing list
[11:31] <soc_> i would host them, too, if traffic is a concern ...
[11:31] <kwwii> soc_: no worries about traffic (sinecera.de and bootsplash.org is my website)
[11:32] <soc_> :-) ok
[11:32] <soc_> so we only have one giraffe and one elephant wallpaper
[11:32] <nothlit> lassegs: average art interested user?
[11:32] <kwwii> and one lion
[11:32] <soc_> but concerning lion we have to choose one
[11:32] <kwwii> yeah, we have to pick which lion
[11:32] <soc_> i would suggest that: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu-lion_2.jpg
[11:33] <kwwii> I am pretty tempted to leave it up to the author in this case
[11:33] <soc_> it's not as dark as this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu-lion.jpg
[11:33] <nothlit> lassegs: like ubuntu users who happen to like art and want to provide input? or those that participate in the art forum and mailing list, etc
[11:33] <soc_> and not as bright as this: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu-lion-claar.jpg
[11:33] <lassegs> kwwii: _I_ know that, but the reaction taht came with the official wallpaper can (and should) be avoided by creating some sort of framework for it.  and end up with better final products as well.
[11:33] <lassegs> nothlit: i think the divide is too obvious.
[11:33] <kwwii> there is a wiki page with rules for making a wallpaper
[11:34] <kwwii> and in the end the final decision is not up to the people on the forum
[11:34] <lassegs> kwwii: yeah, im not making myself clear enough.
[11:35] <kwwii> the forum is a great place for people to express their opinion, and we do take that into account, but....it is not the end all of the decision making process
[11:35] <lassegs> kwwii: i understand its decided at the top but i think that theres a way to combine both that, and let users feel they have been included. More discussion prior to the release of the offical wallpaper could avoided this.
[11:35] <lassegs> thats just one thing.
[11:36] <kwwii> lassegs: everyone had all the chance in the world to discuss this on the mailing list and wiki
[11:36] <nothlit> the key is probably making sure people know about the above ^
[11:36] <kwwii> and if this would have been an issue on the forum before I would have also responded
[11:36] <kwwii> I just do not check the forum all the time, I have way too much to do to spend my time browsing the forum
[11:37] <kwwii> the biggest problem is that the number of people who contribute to the artwork is much, *much* smaller than the number of people who want to offer their opinion
[11:38] <kwwii> I can appreciate it when everyone says something is bad but there is so much bike shedding when it comes to artwrok
[11:38] <lassegs> kwwii: ok . Then lets create a framework for people to contribute.
[11:38] <kwwii> lassegs: the framework is: post it on the wiki, send an email to the list to make sure it gets seen
[11:39] <kwwii> discuss it here on irc
[11:39] <nothlit> wow
[11:39] <nothlit> the forums just posted this "Where was it discussed? In some obscure mailing list? In some irc chat? Why didn't they discuss it in some open space, like say, the biggest online gathering of Ubuntu users, both new and old, like say, ubuntuforums.org?"
[11:39] <kwwii> lol
[11:39] <nothlit> in response to a paste of something that just happened here
[11:40] <kwwii> I could spend my entire day discussing things on the forum
[11:40] <`23meg> kwwii, you may want to respond to this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3415202&postcount=186
[11:40] <lassegs> kwwii: and by framework i mean not only technically, like gnome-look or whatevr, but an enviroment that makes an art student who just switched able to contrib in their sparetime. like programmers do with programs.
[11:40] <kwwii> more important to me is to discuss it with those who actually contribute and work on artwork
[11:41] <lassegs> but its probably best to postpone this discussion, you have probably more pressing matters to attend :)
[11:41] <kwwii> see, I click on that link and I cannot respond
[11:41] <kwwii> now I am supposed to browse through comments to find that and respond
[11:42] <`23meg> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=555477&page=7 --> you can respond here
[11:42] <kwwii> and in the meantime, nothlit has repsonded
[11:42] <kwwii> erm, spelling
[11:43] <soc_> kwwii: when you choose those wallpapers of animasl for univers, it seems that another persons has made "an improved" version as well (Expand HSV) so you could make sure you choose the one which looks the best ...
[11:44] <kwwii> soc_: they should post it to the wiki then
[11:44] <soc_> it is
[11:44] <kwwii> then I will get an email with the change :-)
[11:44] <soc_> so everyone of daminvilas wallpapers have an additional one made by "skiessi"
[11:44] <lassegs> soc_: the original is best imho
[11:44] <`23meg> "The problem with their assessment being that nobody outside the Art Team had seen this new wallpaper until THE DAY OF THE DEADLINE." --> from the forum thread
[11:44] <soc_> sometimes the original, sometimes the others look better, imo
[11:45] <kwwii> yeah, that is going to be a problem we need to work out
[11:45] <lassegs> kwwii: thats what im talking about
[11:45] <lassegs> kwwii: ++
[11:45] <soc_> imo, the original elephant looks better
[11:45] <kwwii> `23meg: not true, look at the wiki page
[11:45] <`23meg> kwwii, I know
[11:45] <kwwii> and anyway, who should I ask?
[11:45] <nothlit> there isn't an official art team lol
[11:46] <soc_> giraffe: i can't really decide ... the original looks warmer, the "improved" one sharper and more realistic
[11:46] <kwwii> I am not about to post everything to some forum where every person who I have no idea about can post their comments on artwork, it simply does not work
[11:46] <kwwii> I would spend all my time fending off people who know too little about the subject
[11:46] <kwwii> I do have quite a few other things to do as well
[11:47] <the_dingle> How about deciding on a wallpaper a week before the deadline, instead on it?
[11:47] <the_dingle> *of on
[11:47] <kwwii> the_dingle: it was decided a while before that
[11:47] <soc_> and concerning lion, i would take the middle one from the original ...
[11:47] <kwwii> look at the comments on the wiki page and on the mailing list and it quite evident
[11:48] <kwwii> From:
[11:48] <kwwii> Kenneth Wimer <kwwii@ubuntu.com>  (Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings)
[11:48] <kwwii>   To:
[11:48] <soc_> ah no, it seems to be a improved one ...
[11:48] <kwwii> ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
[11:48] <kwwii>   Date:
[11:48] <kwwii> Tuesday 12:31:35
[11:48] <kwwii> 
[11:48] <kwwii> Hi all,
[11:48] <kwwii> I am in the process of putting together a community wallpaper package. If
[11:49] <kwwii> anyone has any final edits on their pics on
[11:49] <kwwii> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas let me know asap and I'll
[11:49] <kwwii> include them in the package - otherwise I'll pick versions from the wiki
[11:49] <soc_> i think this looks the nicest from the lions ... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=ubuntu-lion_2.jpg
[11:49] <kwwii> page.
[11:49] <kwwii> Thanks,
[11:49] <kwwii> Ken
[11:49] <kwwii> P.S. It looks like a version of brownFluid (IMG_4874.jpg) will be the default
[11:49] <kwwii> in Gutsy. I am also looking for a second pic to replace "smooth chocolate"
[11:49] <kwwii> from the Feisty package.
[11:49] <kwwii> soc_: yeah, we will have to figure out a way to find the best on of those
[11:49] <lassegs> kwwii: dont waste time on the forums, but i think you should create a framework so that people can respond for you, instead of the situation we got in now; you and your bosses against the world :)
[11:49] <kwwii> perhaps we should include an extra package with just the animal wallpapers
[11:49] <the_dingle> It's not the same wallpaper at all, kwii
[11:50] <kwwii> lassegs: the funny thing is that those who actually do artwork know where to contribute and discuss it
[11:50] <the_dingle> and it should be uploaded to the repos, not silently decided on a mailing list
[11:50] <soc_> kwwii: i'll sleep now ... bye
[11:50] <kwwii> soc_: see you
[11:50] <soc_> kwwii: keep up the good work ..
[11:51] <kwwii> the_dingle: the deadlines were made by me...and I purposely but them before the beta to solve issues like this
[11:52] <lassegs> kwwii: obviously, because they find them. But there are like 10 contribs to the wiki page. Ubuntu has a hell of a lot more artists, professional designers, art students, and incredibly talented amateurs than that. We must ask us self why they arent contributing, and what to do about it.
[11:52] <kwwii> lassegs: if that is really the case, I would love to see that problem solved
[11:52] <kwwii> lassegs: in a lot of ways it is about people stepping up and taking responsiblity to help as well
[11:53] <nothlit> well at the moment, there isn't too much of a collaborative effort
[11:53] <lassegs> kwwii: agree 100%. first thing to do about this is to analyze the problem.
[11:53] <nothlit> its a strike out on your own, trying to intepret what is needed and wanted sort of thing
[11:53] <kwwii> nothlit: artwork like this is not really a collaborative effort
[11:54] <kwwii> an icon set or such, yes...the one wallpaper not so much
[11:54] <kwwii> so 100 people giving their ideas on how to change the one pic is not going to have a lot of effect on that one pic
[11:54] <kwwii> one or two good ideas, perhaps
[11:54] <lassegs> kwwii: its not as collaborative as say pidgin, but there are variations of collaboration.
[11:55] <lassegs> kwwii: one or two that can be great.
[11:55] <kwwii> then the artist simply says "nope, I cannot do anything more"
[11:55] <kwwii> anyway...it is 24:00 on sunday here now.../me watches a film and goes to bed :-)
[11:55] <nothlit> not as in an actual combined effort, but as in a community effort
[11:56] <lassegs> kwwii: ill repeat myself. i think we have another 100 in our userbase like damianvilla, a banker from spain. We must enable these talents and get them to contrib.
[11:56] <kwwii> I think that if you look at the wiki page you can see that there is a stronge difference in the quality of the pics submitted
[11:57] <lassegs> 10-100-10 000 etc. just an example.
[11:57] <nothlit> in the same way artwork forums etc have wip progress threads and it feels more like a team and building effort rather than the wiki post your image
[11:57] <kwwii> lassegs: I would love to see more people step up, but I cannot force them
[11:57] <nothlit> where a piece could potentially be heavily criticised
[11:57] <kwwii> no, dicussing it with hundreds of people only turns artists off
[11:57] <kwwii> unless all those hundreds are artists or really know what they are saying
[11:59] <nothlit> i guess it does depend on if the masses start registering to comment
[11:59] <lassegs> kwwii; ok. lets say one easy thing to do for the Hardy, announce a contest on ubuntuforums, with rules and everything. make it clear that it will be decided on top level etc., but lets create contributors out of sleeping talents!
[12:00] <lassegs> look at how deviantarts comment system often works as feedback, where artists actually make better art off of it.
[12:01] <`23meg> on which wiki page are the comments that came in before the deadline and decision?
[12:01] <kwwii> lassegs: I think that posting the relevant information and wiki urls, irc stuff, etc would be good but I do not think that hosting a contest on the forum is the right idea
[12:01] <lassegs> kwwii: i dunno, just an example. but lets map it out, find out what we can do.
[12:01] <nothlit> lassegs: happy bday
[12:01] <lassegs> thanks.
[12:01] <kwwii> `23meg: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas
[12:01] <kwwii> hehe, happy b-day
[12:02] <kwwii> I am off for now....see you all tomorrow morning
[12:02] <lassegs> yeah. bye.
[12:02] <lassegs> and again thanks for making my day
[12:04] <yharrow> hey guys
[12:04] <yharrow> hows it going
[12:06] <Ludwik> Sorry to bother you, but I have a question. I was reading your discussion and you seem all to agree that making the process of choosing the right image (wallpeper) more demcratic is a bad idea. Why?
[12:07] <nothlit> Ludwik: the interests of the masses do not necessarily coincide with the goals of a project in terms of message, aesthetics, etc
[12:07] <nothlit> but i do love democracy :D
[12:08] <lassegs> i Ludwik i think its a good idea, but i accept that the decision will ultimatly be made by the bosses.
[12:09] <lassegs> Ludwik: that wont change easily, so im trying to make the it more democratic, while it still gets decided on the top.
[12:09] <nothlit> basically theres nothing wrong with popular opinion, but creating a mass vote is a bad idea
[12:10] <nothlit> because there are no guarantees that it will get respected
[12:10] <nothlit> at least, thats my view
[12:10] <lassegs> nothlit: not because masses are stupid, but because our target audience isnt hte same people who will vote.
[12:11] <lassegs> as troy_s says; a bigger userbase is better, therefor our artwork should target people who why are trying to get to be users.
[12:11] <lassegs> whoever that might be :)
[12:11] <Ludwik> nothlit - ok, I take the point, but on the other hand the situation like the current one, when basically input from the users is ignored isn't too good.
[12:13] <nothlit> Ludwik: official artwork is decided by the founder of ubuntu
[12:13] <nothlit> and he has a specific vision, and fears and needs
[12:14] <lassegs> Ludwik: we have to work within these bounderies.
[12:14] <nothlit> there are larger images, apparently
[12:14] <nothlit> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Animals kwwii
[12:14] <lassegs> nothlit: think he got that :)
[12:15] <Ludwik> People seem to be very passionate about the Animals wallpapers (and I'm talking about normal users, for example on digg.com), reaction could be compared only to the excitement to the Compiz effects. And still it doesn't seem to matter...
[12:15] <lassegs> Ludwik: kwwii changed his mind.
[12:15] <Ludwik> He did?
[12:15] <nothlit> Ludwik: they'll be bundled in ubuntu, or at least in the repos
[12:16] <lassegs> Ludwik: it will be included by default, but not enabled. i think thats the best we can get
[12:16] <lassegs> Ludwik: and the official will be revised.
[12:16] <nothlit> people will be able to switch to them the same as they all switched to 'Dawn of Ubuntu'
[12:16] <lassegs> nothlit: or chocolate
[12:20] <lassegs> But I think the best way to get this to be more democratic (and produce a better final result) is to get people active in ubuntu artwork. digg comments will never be as important as a great contribution
[12:20] <lassegs> you guys agree?
[12:21] <nothlit> of course
[12:22] <lassegs> then i think the first task is to find out how to enable user partisipation in a better way than we do today
[12:22] <Ludwik> Right, but Digg coments works similar to the focus group. You could still use them to help you choose.
[12:22] <kwwii> re, shortly....reading back, one thing to say: I intended from the beginning on to include the elephant wallpaper in the default package, that is why I asked for bigger versions. At first the author told me that he had not time to make bigger versions although on the weekend he found the time so it will be included
[12:22] <Ludwik> BTW, I think people are so passionate about the default wallpaper, because they know that the first impression is the key. When they give Ubuntu CD to the friends they want them to say "WOW".
[12:22] <lassegs> kwwii: ok sorry
[12:22] <nothlit> lassegs: you should brainstorm and then submit it for discussion to the mailing list
[12:22] <kwwii> back to bed
[12:23] <Ludwik>  I'm a high-school teacher, I show my students different software products, and I know that thinks like that really matters.
[12:23] <lassegs> nothlit: i want to brainstorm to you.
[12:23] <nothlit> lassegs: lol sure
[12:23] <lassegs> Ludwik: digg might not be the right people to have in a user group for ubuntu
[12:24] <lassegs> Ludwik: digg comments are like amateur stand up night
[12:24] <nothlit> i think brownfluid is an ok choice in terms of default, people who use xp, vista, osx, most of them will change from the default wp as well,
[12:25] <lassegs> Ludwik: but of course it should be considered as well.
[12:25] <nothlit> the key is to have quite a few outstanding ones as choices
[12:25] <Ludwik> I think Ubuntu users has a similar profile to most of the Ubuntu users. And they might not be good at the design, but they know what they like.
[12:26] <lassegs> Ludwik: but as I said previously, ubuntu users might not be our target audience
[12:27] <lassegs> Ludwik: excisting ubuntu users knows how to change the default WP. And probably will anyways. first impression is important for new users and reviewers
[12:27] <Ludwik> Of course I'm not saying that the choice should be demotratic in an automatic way, there always should be someone with vision deciding, but I think the user reaction is important when it comes to software.
[12:28] <nothlit> thats part of the reason why the animal wallpapers are being included afaik
[12:28] <lassegs> Ludwik: yeah, we agree. So lets stop talking and start to find out what to do about this