[12:29] <lassegs> nothlit: but people dont really care if its included as long as it isnt on by default.
[12:29] <nothlit> lassegs: we can start laying out the structure for hardy's wiki pages
[12:29] <nothlit> and post forum links directing people on how to contribute etc
[12:29] <lassegs> nothlit: yeah, lets do that. then make some forum posts and maybe a digg post etc
[12:30] <nothlit> one thing i would like, is to see art.ubuntu.com be repurposed and a bit revamped
[12:30] <lassegs> nothlit: but it must be very clear from the beggining, who will ultimatly deside, that blue wont be considered and so forth
[12:31] <`23meg> lassegs, here's what we can do: 1) Someone from the Forum Ambassadors team posts all incoming artwork to the forums 2) people comment on the incoming artwork, and are given a set of guidelines of constructive criticism 3) Those comments that are valid and useful by these guidelines are relayed or summarized to the mailing list or wiki, or their owners are told to post them to the mailing list or wiki
[12:31] <lassegs> nothlit: so kwwii must be agreeing to this and keep an eye on it.
[12:31] <`23meg> all of this happens in real time, starting well before the deadlines
[12:31] <lassegs> `23meg: great stuff.
[12:31] <`23meg> I'm leader of the forum ambassadors team and can assist in this
[12:31] <lassegs> this is what we need to be thinking about.
[12:33] <kwwii> re, shortly...I totally agree with the ideas just mentioned and am *really* glad to see people stepping up and taking responsibility...I'll give my utmost support when, where and how possible
[12:33] <lassegs> `23meg: but we must expand this to more than ubuntuforums as well.
[12:33] <Misosaki> Hi, first time in direct contact with everyone, hope you're all well. (Please carry on, I'll just listen in the bg.)
[12:33] <`23meg> kwwii, nice to hear your support
[12:33] <lassegs> kwwii: great kwwii im sorry i wasnt clear from the start
[12:34] <`23meg> goodbye kwwii :)
[12:34] <`23meg> lassegs, to where else should it be expanded?
[12:34] <kwwii> lassegs: quite a few people have mentioned "good ideas" but without some help from the community it is simply not possible for me to do everything alone and at the same time do so much artwork
[12:35] <lassegs> kwwii: we want to make your life easier to get artwork better :)
[12:35] <kwwii> realize that I do kubuntu, ubuntu mobile, help on edubuntu, etc. as well
[12:35] <kwwii> not to mention that I am kde art maintainer and oxygen founder
[12:35] <lassegs> `23meg: as you say it should be contributed ubuntuforums, but we need to pull in people from digg, slashdot and other places ubuntu users hang out.
[12:36] <lassegs> kwwii: we really are aware that you have lots to do. We can do the dirty work but you must overlook it.
[12:36] <kwwii> lassegs: I would be happy to do so
[12:36] <lassegs> `23meg: contributed _through_ ubuntuforums
[12:37] <`23meg> lassegs, I'm not sure we need *that* wide an audience, but the UF thread will definitely get dugg and perhaps slashdotted automatically anyway, so..
[12:37] <nothlit> kwwii: is launchpad going to be used more for the next cycle? or can i downplay its importance on the wiki page
[12:37] <lassegs> `23meg: yeah
[12:37] <kwwii> nothlit: launchpad will always be the main place for specs, code, bugs, etc
[12:38] <`23meg> kwwii, fully understood. I'll notify the FA team about this and we'll work together once it's Hardy time
[12:38] <kwwii> `23meg: excellent
[12:38] <nothlit> kwwii: as in for the concept art process, rather than just getting miscellaneous bugs
[12:38] <kwwii> we will start work in about a month, I want a full 6 month cycle this time to get things right
[12:38] <lassegs> kwwii: that sounds great
[12:40] <lassegs> how about we schedule a meeting for this?
[12:40] <lassegs> to get all the important people to attend?
[12:43] <lassegs> imo this should be open from the start, so we set the trend
[12:43] <kwwii> lassegs: the best time to do such a meeting would be during the UDS at the end of october
[12:44] <kwwii> lassegs: we can create a spec on launchpad describing how we will improve things, etc
[12:44] <lassegs> kwwii: ok, so locally offline, or local and online?
[12:44] <lassegs> kwwii: im new to this .)
[12:44] <kwwii> lassegs: all the meeting should be online and per VIOP accesable
[12:44] <kwwii> so we could set up an irc meeting or prefferable a VOIP session
[12:45] <kwwii> if that does not work we can still do it per email
[12:45] <kwwii> but I would prefer to have a live commentary
[12:45] <lassegs> kwwii: cool, i was thinking damn, i dont have money to fly to some conference.
[12:45] <kwwii> lassegs: if I would have seen this coming I could have invited a few people to the conference (all expenses paid)
[12:46] <kwwii> until now there has been very few people who were interested to this degree
[12:46] <`23meg> kwwii, is sponsorship still available for UDS?
[12:46] <kwwii> most people want to submit a "I do not like this" or "I think this is great" and much little else
[12:46] <`23meg> true
[12:47] <kwwii> `23meg: perhaps, if I can be really persuasive with good reasoning
[12:47] <kwwii> officialy the invitations are already done, but if I know that we can really achieve something perhaps I can add one or two people
[12:48] <lassegs> kwwii: wasnt this tried for dapper as well? we should collect their experiences and learn from that.
[12:48] <lassegs> kwwii: you were on kubuntu at taht time, right?
[12:49] <nothlit> kwwii: the seam carving resizes the image based on content, takes the path of least resistance, so you can change the aspect ratio without distorting or harming the image contents
[12:49] <`23meg> kwwii, on second thought, I'll be too busy with my thesis to attend, unfortunately. I hope I can make it next time.
[12:49] <lassegs> or maybe they had another thing going, I dont remember anymore.
[12:50] <lassegs> i would love to go, of course i would have to prove myself worthy
[12:50] <lassegs> *first
[12:51] <kwwii> lassegs: yes, I was doing kubuntu for dapper and the results from the UDS after that were not so impressive
[12:51] <nothlit> kwwii: are there any artwork interested attendees of UDS at all?
[12:51] <lassegs> kwwii: yeah, i seem to recall that.
[12:51] <`23meg> see you all
[12:51] <kwwii> perhaps the best way to sort this would be to have an irc meeting as soon as possible (with a list of topics posted in advance)
[12:51] <kwwii> `23meg: see you
[12:52] <lassegs> `23meg: great input man
[12:52] <`23meg> thanks ;)
[12:52] <lassegs> kwwii: that was what i was thinking, something should outline this a litte more before UDS
[12:52] <kwwii> `23meg: stay in touch, perhaps we can improve things
[12:52] <nothlit> `23meg: great reporting to the forums btw
[12:52] <kwwii> lassegs: put together some ideas and we can discuss this tomorrow and set up a meeting asap
[12:53] <`23meg> kwwii, will do; I'll be in the channel from now on
[12:53] <lassegs> great. ill see you here tomorrow, we'll talk then.
[12:53] <kwwii> `23meg:  would you have time for a meeting soon?
[12:53] <`23meg> nothlit, one more post coming :)
[12:53] <`23meg> kwwii, sure
[12:53] <kwwii> cool, let's keep in touch on this
[12:53] <`23meg> will do :) goodbye..
[12:53] <Ludwik> I have to say I'm impressed with the way you handle this. In most communities such controversy would only result in people on both sides being angry. You chose to use it as an opportunity to improve.
[12:54] <kwwii> I am pretty much always in chat (except for the weekends)
[12:54] <kwwii> Ludwik: that is the only way to move forward
[12:54] <Ludwik> right :)
[12:54] <kwwii> I have to say that I somewhat intended this controversy to see if I could provoke people to step up and take action
[12:55] <kwwii> I could have just posted the non-pixelated lighter version (aka original) pic to begin with :-)
[12:56] <nothlit> LOL
[12:56] <nothlit> thats why you darkened it
[12:56] <lassegs> yeah, this sounds a little fishy :D
[12:57] <lassegs> if thats the case, job well done
[12:58] <lassegs> im going to bed. see you tomorrow guys.
[12:59] <kwwii> see you soon, i hope
[12:59] <lassegs> no worries :P
[12:59] <kwwii> sleep well
[12:59] <kwwii> and then sleeps
[01:00] <nothlit> cyas, close irc lol
[01:05] <Misosaki> Does anyone happen to know what's next on the task list (if anything) after the wallpaper?
[01:06] <nothlit> afaik, it starts with the wallpaper as a concept
[01:07] <nothlit> and bleeds into gdm, gnome splash etc
[01:07] <nothlit> there are also icons, you should speak to the tango enthusiasts about that
[01:09] <Misosaki> Are gdm drafts being accepted yet, seeing as the wallpaper question is about ... decided?
[01:12] <Misosaki> wb
[01:14] <nothlit> the artwork deadline has passed already
[01:14] <nothlit> everything is locked down for gutsy
[01:16] <Misosaki> Hi Damianvila, good work on the walls
[01:17] <damianvila> Thanks!
[01:17] <troy_s> The elephant wallpaper, is a no brainer.
[01:17] <damianvila> Hi troy!
[01:17] <damianvila> And Lasse!
[01:17] <troy_s> Greets damianvila
[01:18] <nothlit> damianvila: nice work
[01:18] <damianvila> Thanks everybody
[01:18] <troy_s> I said it when I saw it.  It has a very interesting 'awe' component.  It is also almost abstract enough to connote broken cracked earth.  It is very organic.  And well... it works.
[01:18] <Ludwik> I like the Lion one, but the elephant wallpaper as an official Ubuntu alternative wallpaper is also a good thing :)
[01:18] <damianvila> I'm writing to the forum now, to calm down people
[01:18] <Misosaki> Nothlit: Will there be any changes to the gdm, etc. for Gutsy, then? The wallpaper has just been finalised, so if there are to be changes, then they preceeded w/o the wallpaper?
[01:18] <troy_s> That said, even with elephant as a base, it would require a _real_ bloody palette to round it out.  Sync up the GDM / GTK, and poof.
[01:18] <troy_s> A days work.
[01:19] <troy_s> Misosaki: It's more or less a done deal.
[01:19] <damianvila> Yeah Troy, I know...
[01:19] <troy_s> damianvila: It also has a very workable motif.
[01:20] <Misosaki> Ah. Thanks nothlit and troy_s.
[01:20] <troy_s> damianvila: It gets a severe +1 from me.  I said it the moment I saw it.  Lion and the other are a little too "Africany" from my vantage.  Elephant is abstract enough to work wonderfully.
[01:20] <damianvila> I just don't get people questioning the art team
[01:20] <troy_s> (Mind you the blue is problematic of course.)
[01:20] <troy_s> damianvila: There _is no art team_
[01:20] <troy_s> damianvila: There never has been.
[01:20] <troy_s> damianvila: There never will be.
[01:21] <troy_s> damianvila: Unless you are speaking of k wwii (to not ping him during sleep) and sabdfl.
[01:21] <nothlit> he quit
[01:21] <damianvila> who quit?
[01:22] <nothlit> 07:03:42 -!- kwwii [n=kwwii@p54956F6C.dip.t-dialin.net]  has quit Remote closed the connection
[01:22] <damianvila> Oh!
[01:22] <damianvila> Nevertheles
[01:22] <troy_s> I might add that I have also stated quite openly that transparency is rather vital.  Hopefully this will come back to haunt all once again.
[01:24] <damianvila> It was clear to me from the beggining how things worked
[01:25] <Misosaki> Transparency, possibly, but also more publicity.
[01:25] <damianvila> I remember seeing the announcement that Ken was the person who made the decision about artwork from Feisty onwards...
[01:25] <troy_s> It is also why not many with any experience in the Ubuntu world bother.
[01:26] <troy_s> It has been a load of tripe from the beginning.
[01:26] <Misosaki> So ... one person has always been given the role of making UI decisions?
[01:27] <damianvila> Just artwork I believe
[01:27] <Misosaki> Sorry, UI meant here in terms of themes, visuals
[01:28] <damianvila> Yeah
[01:29] <nothlit> the ubuntu founder doesn't much trust the community in terms of artwork
[01:30] <damianvila> Well, it's difficult to get a consensus about graphic design...
[01:31] <troy_s> damianvila: We should round out elephant into a proper full blown theme.
[01:31] <troy_s> damianvila: Locate a suitable palette, shift it into the tonal range, and provide a GDM / usplash for it.
[01:31] <troy_s> damianvila: Ship me a high resolution version of the plain texture.
[01:32] <troy_s> damianvila: And I'll see what I can do.
[01:32] <troy_s> Misosaki: and yes... it ultimately comes down to sabdfl and his hiring
[01:32] <troy_s> damianvila: Can you do that?
[01:32] <troy_s> damianvila: I'll do a stair interpolation on the highest resolution version you have and use it as a starting point.
[01:33] <damianvila> troy: there's a hi-res version here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Animals
[01:33] <Misosaki> Any chance of something similar for the lion, or will that be too redundant? :)
[01:35] <Misosaki> Would try if there is anything needing help
[01:36] <damianvila> I have no experience creating whole themes... :-P
[01:36] <damianvila> Both the lion and the elephant were created in a similar way
[01:37] <damianvila> But the lion is reddish, so, it's a different palette
[01:39] <Misosaki> Well, the lion texture is a bit softer, though it's understandable if people don't like reddish/brown
[01:41] <damianvila> But I agree that, given the good reception, something like this: http://people.redhat.com/dfong/fc7graphics/ needs to be made...
[01:43] <damianvila> Misosaki: at the forums it was like 50/50 between the lion and the elephant...
[01:44] <damianvila> And the Kubuntu people loved the blue elephant
[01:44] <Misosaki> There's some demand for landscape scenes ... but they just have to be vivid and high-res or it'll easily look sloppy
[01:44] <damianvila> The problem with very detailed landscapes is that they tend to make noise
[01:45] <damianvila> I have lots of landscape wallpapers I love, but the ones that works best are the dull ones
[01:46] <Misosaki> Dull? In colour?
[01:46] <damianvila> Yep
[01:46] <damianvila> You see: wallpapers, besides being decoration, needs to "hold" icons. You want the eye to quickly fin the icon you are looking for
[01:47] <damianvila> Most people tend to group icons around the borders
[01:47] <Misosaki> B/w anyone? lol
[01:47] <damianvila> That's why all of my wallpapers are darker at the border
[01:47] <damianvila> lol
[01:48] <Misosaki> Well, let's say in Fedora's case -- what do you all like (or dislike) about the things in that link?
[01:49] <damianvila> There where lots of good wallpapers at the wiki, but I liked the ones by Ken, Troy and Lasse because I thought those were the ones better suited for a desktop use
[01:49] <damianvila> I love the overall idea of Fedora
[01:49] <damianvila> It's calm yet interesting
[01:50] <Misosaki> Are we aiming for something similar with Ubuntu? What are we aiming for?
[01:50] <damianvila> Maybe you can't put lots of icons on the right side
[01:50] <damianvila> I don't know... lol
[01:50] <damianvila> I'm totally lost :-P
[01:51] <damianvila> I just wanted to give Ubuntu something unique and original, but usable
[01:51] <nothlit> i think there are plans for discussions
[01:51] <nothlit> starting tomorrow
[01:52] <damianvila> That wold be great
[01:52] <damianvila> *would
[01:52] <troy_s> The lion is simply a little too heavy thematically.
[01:52] <troy_s> It has a less of an abstract / leather feel
[01:52] <troy_s> it has strong ties with African motifs (which localizes Ubuntu a little too strongly in my estimation)
[01:52] <Misosaki> Yeah, but some people might not savour the feel of leather
[01:53] <troy_s> Misosaki: Doesn't matter.
[01:53] <troy_s> Misosaki: You will always be dealing with percentages.
[01:53] <troy_s> Misosaki: The point I am simply trying to make is that the connotations with a lion's fur is probably stronger along African lines, which -- while a completely acceptable design choice -- probably is a little more 'restricted' than the elephant's texture.
[01:55] <troy_s> Misosaki: I have from day one been stressing that organics works for Ubuntu.  It is both a clear alternative to the glassy plastics out there for the two mainstreams and it works well from a more philosophical vantage.
[01:55] <Misosaki> It matters, but it's fine, because the sampling of opinions from the forums (however small), is as Damianvila said 50/50 on the two
[01:55] <troy_s> damianvila: Do you have the source texture before colorizing?
[01:55] <damianvila> Yes. It's a Photoshop file. 3 or 4 layers
[01:56] <troy_s> Misosaki: It is a delicate walk.  You don't want to suddenly head into 'animal hell'.
[01:56] <troy_s> Misosaki: You want to connote the organic without being utterly literal.
[01:56] <troy_s> damianvila: Can you email me?
[01:56] <damianvila> Yeap
[01:56] <troy_s> damianvila: I would even take your source textures
[01:57] <troy_s> damianvila: As it appears a subtle blurring of several considering that those creases don't happen like that naturally on an elephant ;)
[01:57] <damianvila> Let me make a package and I'll put it on my site...
[01:57] <troy_s> Misosaki: It is unfortunate, but I have been trying to get people to seeing the upside of a true brainstorming portion of design development.
[01:58] <troy_s> Misosaki: When damianvila presented elephant, it had that "that's the direction" feeling for me (and apparently a few others).
[01:58] <troy_s> Misosaki: The extremely unfortunate side of things is that kwwii posted the 'should be similar to' images, and not one really even came close.
[01:59] <Misosaki> And the wall will be placed into an entirely new theme, or will it be expected to work with the human theme?
[02:00] <Misosaki> Because the wall obviously doesn't exist alone ... there are icons and other elements, some of which tend towards a certain palette or shape
[02:02] <damianvila> Looks like Troy had a problem...
[02:02] <Misosaki> Oops
[02:03] <Misosaki> wb
[02:03] <troy_s> damn lynching.  might have a memory problem.
[02:03] <troy_s> grr.
[02:03] <damianvila> :-)
[02:04] <troy_s> damianvila: So if you could ship those texture sources, it would be great.
[02:04] <troy_s> I'll see if we can work on rounding it out a little.
[02:04] <damianvila> Ouch!, 44MB each tar... :-P might take a while to upload...
[02:04] <troy_s> other things to consider might be how linework will be presented
[02:04] <troy_s> etc
[02:08] <troy_s> out for a while boyz.
[02:08] <damianvila> As I said, I love what Diana made and how it was presented...
[02:08] <Misosaki> Okay, see you
[02:08] <damianvila> See you Troy
[02:10] <nothlit> i think we're all diana fanboys/girls
[02:10] <damianvila> :-)
[02:11] <damianvila> We should make the "Diana Fong's fanclub" lol
[02:11] <Misosaki> Hi there
[02:11] <Misosaki> lols
[02:11] <damianvila> Hi Alex
[02:18] <Misosaki> Would be nice if there were more complete docs on the whole process -- who the leader(s) are and what currently needs work, for instance. (The artwork and getinvolved pages aren't very detailed about it.)
[02:21] <damianvila> Well, I submitted the images because, I believe Ken, asked for it. I never contributed to other Open Source project. Being a designer, I find it rather chaotic...
[02:21] <Misosaki> When the public wants to know about progress and major deadlines, they shouldn't have to go through scores of IRC transcripts to find out.
[02:22] <damianvila> Maybe because most people don't know Ken's the one with the final decision
[02:23] <Misosaki> Yeah
[02:23] <damianvila> Frankly, I fond it strage that he was asking for artwork
[02:23] <damianvila> *found
[02:24] <Misosaki> Well, it's one thing to have someone in charge of the decision-making, but at least if there's a call for proposals, to please give designers betterdocs and a better idea of what is being sought
[02:25] <Misosaki> So it's not usual to call for artwork?
[02:25] <Misosaki> Hi there
[02:25] <nekiruhs> Hey
[02:25] <damianvila> No if there's a person appointed to do the work...
[02:25] <nothlit> for larger distros afaik theres usually someone in charge
[02:25] <damianvila> Hi nekiruhs
[02:25] <nekiruhs> Hi
[02:26] <Misosaki> But the person is just doing the decision-making, or overseeing the design process, not the actual designing?
[02:28] <Misosaki> Hi
[02:28] <damianvila> As I  understood it, kwwii was in charge of the artwork. I remember seeing something in the lines of "the official artwork will be made by kwwii, so do not submit proposals for Ubuntu", or something like that
[02:29] <Misosaki> Really? In the wiki or the forum?
[02:29] <damianvila> I think it was in the wiki
[02:29] <nothlit> its in the wiki
[02:29] <nothlit> that was for feisty iirc
[02:30] <nothlit> damianvila: sabdfl (Mark Shuttleworth, founder of ubuntu) has the final say of what is default
[02:30] <damianvila> nothlit: I know
[02:31] <damianvila> I believe sabdfl was the one who choose kwwii
[02:32] <damianvila> Maybe sabdfl is tired of seeing lions and elephants lol
[02:32] <Misosaki> lols
[02:32] <wfarr> damianvila: any hope on getting the updated lion-claar branded like the previous version?
[02:32] <wfarr> I think it looks much better with the branding, personally
[02:33] <nekiruhs> wfarr: I agree
[02:33] <Misosaki> Yeah, agreed
[02:33] <wfarr> Ubuntu is probably one of the only distros I can think of that _doesn't_ do branding on their artwork, actually
[02:33] <Misosaki> Though I've got the darker version on :)
[02:33] <nekiruhs> I don't know how well the logo would show up on the lighter fur though
[02:33] <damianvila> wfarr: Some people like it with it, some without. I have no problem putting the logo back
[02:33] <wfarr> at least out of the Big 3 (ubuntu, fedora, suse)
[02:34] <wfarr> nekiruhs: it looks fine here (dunno if claar version got lighter since the branded version was posted)
[02:34] <nekiruhs> wfarr: It had the branding at one point? I must have missed that image.
[02:35] <Misosaki> The first ones did
[02:35] <Misosaki> They're still up in GutsyIdeas
[02:35] <damianvila> nekiruhs: The originals are at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/GutsyIdeas
[02:36] <Misosaki> brb
[02:36] <damianvila> At the end I liked the "off center" logo best (like in the "Mufasa" wallpaper)
[02:37] <nekiruhs> damianvila: Have you tried lightening the Fluid+Fur combo?
[02:37] <wfarr> nekiruhs: I didn't like the combo myself
[02:37] <wfarr> I thought it made the wallpaper too busy
[02:37] <nekiruhs> I thought it was neat, but the elephant with the brand won me over
[02:38] <damianvila> nekiruhs:no, not really
[02:38] <wfarr> I like the lion-claar better - but I use Gilouche as my GTK+ theme, so lighter wallpapers look better naturally
[02:38] <damianvila> I just made the "claar" version because some of the people found the lion too dark...
[02:38] <wfarr> damianvila: claar looks very good
[02:38] <wfarr> better than the original imo
[02:39] <damianvila> It's just the same, but using a different color as backgound
[02:39] <wfarr> yeah - I'm speaking about the color value =)
[02:39] <wfarr> the lighter color does wonders
[02:39] <damianvila> (And I also had to change the border, because the regular lion was too dark for "claar")
[02:39] <nekiruhs> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Animals?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=elephant-ubuntu.jpg my favorite
[02:40] <dmccall> damianvila: claar also has what seems a more natural colour for a lion, so the brown looks less forced
[02:40] <nekiruhs> The slight branding of the logo, without "screaming" it is what I like
[02:40] <wfarr> the branding is okay - I just think the elephant color is too dark
[02:40] <damianvila> Yes I know. But the original animals color were a bit depressing lol
[02:42] <nekiruhs> wfarr: The elephant color is whats being used anyway, and it shows that brown can be done
[02:42] <damianvila> Zebras and giraffes are OK and funny to work with, but lions and elephants are a little boring... :-)
[02:42] <wfarr> I still think the beige/light brown of lion-claar looks infinitely better
[02:43] <damianvila> Well, the truth is, the original pictires add almost no color to the wallpaper
[02:43] <damianvila> *pictures
[02:43] <nekiruhs> What you did with the lion face, could you possible do that with an ubuntu logo in lion-claar?
[02:44] <nekiruhs> That might be interesting
[02:44] <damianvila> The background color is the one who gives each wallpaper its color, so I can make them in any color
[02:44] <damianvila> nekiruhs: I tried several ways to brand the wallpaper, but the one you see in the wiki is the one that worked best
[02:45] <nekiruhs> damianvila: it does look good
[02:45] <wfarr> http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/9327/screenshotpu4.png
[02:45] <damianvila> The texture is so heavy that any "ghost" logo is lost and looks rather bland...
[02:45] <wfarr> that's my desktop with lion-claar's branded version
[02:46] <damianvila> :-)
[02:46] <damianvila> With GIMP or any other app you can change it to blue in a breeze if you want
[02:46] <wfarr> it looks pretty depressing with lion or elephant, but lion-claar makes it feel a lot "warmer"
[02:47] <wfarr> nah - I think the beige/tan looks warm and inviting
[02:48] <dmccall> I definitely agree with the lighter, clear white branding. A lot of the time, people make the Ubuntu logo way too obtrusive under some weird assumption that the colours are needed. Nicely, though, this is one of those excellent logos that does not rely on its colours to be recognized!
[02:48] <damianvila> Yes, good logos must admit being printed/shown in B&W
[02:49] <nekiruhs> dmccall: So true, most people over-emphasize the colors over the shape
[02:50] <dmccall> As for the darker ones being depressing, I don't really get that vibe, but something about them seems more like a rug to me, whereas lion-claar and the elephant one seem to be still attached to something alive. Would probably go over a bit better with the vegetarians ;)
[02:50] <wfarr> lol
[02:50] <damianvila> lol
[02:51] <damianvila> I assure you no lion or elephant was harmed in the making of the wallpaper...
[02:52] <damianvila> Hi BHSPitMonkey
[02:53] <BHSPitMonkey> hi...
[02:54] <damianvila> No monkeys harmed either...
[02:54] <nekiruhs> Any more news on the revision  of the default wallpaper, to remove the artifacts?
[02:55] <damianvila> Yes, seems like kwwii will try to get rid of the artifacts
[02:56] <damianvila> There was somenthing in the forums about that
[02:56] <nekiruhs> Artwork freeze exception then?
[02:56] <damianvila> Kind of...
[02:56] <damianvila> Looks like the artifacts were a show-stopper
[02:58] <nekiruhs> But one of your wallpapers will be a secondary, still in the default package?
[02:58] <damianvila> I heard something like that, but I'm not sure...
[02:58] <nothlit> yes
[02:59] <nothlit> news on the default wallpaper:
[02:59] <nothlit> 06:52:33 < kwwii> I have to say that I somewhat intended this controversy to see if I could provoke people to step up and take action
[02:59] <nothlit> 06:53:11 < kwwii> I could have just posted the non-pixelated lighter version (aka original) pic to begin with :-)
[03:00] <damianvila> Anyway, I'll try to set up something for people to get all the wallpapers in different versions, seeing that a lot of people liked it.
[03:00] <nekiruhs> damianvila: Like a gutsy-community-wallpapers package?
[03:00] <damianvila> I just haven't decided where to put it up...
[03:01] <nekiruhs> Too bad universe is frozen
[03:01] <damianvila> Yes, but I was thinking about something like a wallpaper repository or something similar
[03:01] <damianvila> Web based
[03:01] <nothlit> nekiruhs: no community wallpapers is being handled
[03:01] <nothlit> by kwwii, and it will go in
[03:02] <nothlit> including damians animals, but as far as the variations of branding, probably not
[03:02] <wfarr> damianvila: if you want to make a private repo with the alternate versions
[03:03] <nekiruhs> damianvila: Check out either tuxfamiliy or Launchpad, both can provide you with a repo
[03:03] <wfarr> setup an account + ppa on Launchpad
[03:03] <damianvila> I can put a small page at my server, but I'm afraid that it'll eat my whole bandwith, being that the images are large...
[03:03] <nekiruhs> wfarr: How much space does LP PPA give you?
[03:03] <wfarr> damianvila: 1gb storage - unlimited bw
[03:04] <wfarr> and his packages won't be large enough for it to make a difference really
[03:04] <damianvila> I have an account: https://launchpad.net/~damianvila
[03:04] <wfarr> damianvila: just enable your PPA on that page then =)
[03:05] <wfarr> you'll need to go through signing up as an ubuntero if you aren't already, and adding an SSH key
[03:05] <nekiruhs> wfarr: OT : I've been looking in to it, any tutorials for the whole signing source packages and uploading them?
[03:05] <wfarr> nekiruhs: yeah, one second
[03:06] <damianvila> https://launchpad.net/~damianvila/+archive
[03:06] <wfarr> https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart
[03:07] <damianvila> I need to sign the Ubuntu CCC...
[03:07] <wfarr> damianvila: you'll also need to sign a gpg key to do that
[03:08] <damianvila> Yes. I'm not very into PGP... :-P
[03:08] <wfarr> :p
[03:08] <damianvila> I'll have to do some research first
[03:09] <damianvila> Also, I need to do it 2 times, since I'm dual booting constantly
[03:09] <wfarr> heh
[03:11] <damianvila> I'll check that and go it as soon as possible
[03:11] <damianvila> *do it
[03:17] <andrewabc> testing
[03:17] <damianvila> Hi LaserJock and andreabc
[03:17] <damianvila> *andrewabc
[03:18] <andrewabc> thougth I'd stop in and say I like your wallpapers. currently my wallpaper on windows XP :) :o
[03:18] <Misosaki> Hi LaserJock, andrewabc
[03:18] <troy_s> jesus christ
[03:18] <troy_s> how many people in here now?
[03:18] <troy_s> digg
[03:18] <troy_s> got to be digg
[03:18] <Misosaki> lols
[03:18] <damianvila> Welcome back troy
[03:18] <wfarr> troy_s: + ubuntu forums
 Would be nice if there were more complete docs on the whole process -- who the leader(s) are and what currently needs work, for instance. (The artwork and getinvolved pages aren't very detailed about it.)
[03:19] <troy_s> Misosaki: tried that during Edgy.  Everything was more or less kaiboshed including the process.
 I think it looks much better with the branding, personally
[03:20] <troy_s> As has been discussed in here often, branding is symptomatic of the times.
[03:20] <wfarr> troy_s: perhaps
[03:21] <troy_s> wfarr: See car / shoe apparel logo sizes through the last 30 years for examples.
[03:21] <wfarr> but considering default artwork is generally only featured during so-called reviews of distro releases
[03:21] <wfarr> the branding certainly doesn't hurt the cause
[03:21] <wfarr> and for average joe sixpack, as is often the argument, they stick around long enough to change it to suit their tastes anyway
 the branding certainly doesn't hurt the cause
[03:23] <troy_s> To be quite frank, I find it rather cheesy.
[03:23] <damianvila> The wallpapers?
[03:23] <troy_s> It should just work as a presence.  The people running it know it is Ubuntu for example.  That said, it is largely a byproduct of design trends.
[03:23] <troy_s> damianvila: The branding issue.
[03:23] <damianvila> lol
[03:23] <wfarr> troy_s: you seem to be the minority in that regard
[03:23] <wfarr> out of the big names
[03:23] <wfarr> ubuntu is the only one that comes to mind that doesn't do branding
[03:24] <troy_s> wfarr: Garbage.  Look to the people who hire educated folks to do the work.  MS and Apple for example, use no branding in default installs.
[03:24] <damianvila> Thinking of it, I've always get rid of branded backgrounds...
[03:24] <troy_s> wfarr: Again, however, it is symptomatic of the contemporary design trends.
[03:24] <wfarr> troy_s: ah, but people go out and buy a computer and _know_ they're getting either OSX or Windows
[03:24] <wfarr> branding on wallpaper isn't needed there
[03:25] <wfarr> (though it exists on the respective boot splashes in both)
[03:26] <wfarr> Fedora, Suse, PCLinuxOS, MEPIS, _even_ Debian
[03:26] <wfarr> all brand either through logos, name, or both
[03:26] <andrewabc> ahh, ubuntu-art and ubuntu-artwork direct to same place. just wondering :)
[03:27] <damianvila> andrewabc: :-)
[03:28] <wfarr> brb
[03:28] <damianvila> Well, in the first version I used it because Hoary and Breeze used it and it was the reference given...
[03:29] <damianvila> But in the finals I get rid of the branding because I feel it's not neccessary
[03:29] <wfarr> I think the branding makes your work distinctive without being tacky or obtrusive
[03:29] <wfarr> the way you did it is subtle, but evident
[03:31] <damianvila> Thanks
[03:31] <damianvila> And I really liked it off center, liked the "Mufasa" wallpaper
[03:31] <Misosaki> Well, in the case of the Animals package, would prefer the branding on it here, if only to make it less of a texture
[03:32] <Misosaki> Otherwise would say it depends on the image in question
[03:32] <Misosaki> Sometimes slapping branding on an image doesn't necessarily give consistency between brand and the rest of the image
[03:32] <wfarr> Misosaki: oh certainly
[03:37] <Misosaki> Though could see troy's point ... the menu icon is there by default anyway
[03:38] <Misosaki> So having branding isn't mandatory ... more decoration than functional, if that makes any sense
[03:38] <nekiruhs> The branding helps make the connection between Africa - Ubuntu - Humanity
[03:38] <Misosaki> Africa ... uh-oh lols
[03:38] <nekiruhs> It helps bridge the mental gap
 Fedora, Suse, PCLinuxOS, MEPIS, _even_ Debian
[03:39] <troy_s> If you are looking to any of those for proper 'design' trends, you are probably already losing the battle.
[03:39] <Misosaki> Asked the question earlier, but maybe more people here now will have some ideas ... what are we aiming for?
[03:39] <troy_s> Fedora has come a long way, and branding the desktop I am almost 100% certain was not Diana's idea.
[03:39] <nekiruhs> Bye All
[03:41] <damianvila> The baloon was taken from Fedora's logo, so there was the connection already...
[03:41] <troy_s> damianvila: Isn't that a bit of a stretch?
[03:41] <troy_s> damianvila: She certainly crossed the two over, but I think the balloon was more of a byproduct of trying to instill some emotional connection than the logo.
[03:42] <Misosaki> wb buttercups
[03:42] <damianvila> I think I read that on her blog...
[03:42] <troy_s> damianvila: She is formally educated and I believe that it wouldn't be a stretch to suggest that she is familiar with that notion.  ;)
[03:51] <Misosaki> wb
[03:51] <troy_s> got to be a memory issue
[03:51] <troy_s> gd it.
[03:53] <troy_s> killed a dual layer disk in the crash too.  yay.
[03:53] <Misosaki> =/
[03:54] <damianvila> Ouch
[03:54] <damianvila> I'll go to bed now (it's 3:54 here)
[03:55] <damianvila> Thanks everybody for your support and kind words
[03:55] <Misosaki> Laters damianvila
[03:56] <Misosaki> Keep up the cool work
[03:56] <damianvila> Misosaki: Thanks! :-)
[03:56] <damianvila> Bye
[04:01] <wfarr> troy_s: because surely every other popular distribution must be doing it wrong while Ubuntu is the only one to get it right?
[04:04] <troy_s> wfarr: I don't think any of them really do it right.  In fact, that is probably part of the problem.  Diana has certainly elevated the bar.  I would like to see what she would do hands free.
[04:04] <Misosaki> wb andrewabc
[04:04] <wfarr> troy_s: perhaps
[04:04] <wfarr> but I don't think there is anything inherently wrong in tasteful branding
[04:04] <troy_s> wfarr: In fact, the default art and design of the systems you mentioned borders on the simply awful.
[04:04] <troy_s> wfarr: Diana's evolution excluded.
[04:05] <Misosaki> What're your ideas of doing it right?
[04:05] <troy_s> Misosaki: Are you asking me?
[04:05] <Misosaki> You and wfarr
[04:06] <Misosaki> And anyone else who wants to put in their 3 pennies
[04:06] <troy_s> Misosaki: Start with some simple questions:  Who is the default installation aimed at and what exactly are you trying to communicate through its execution.
[04:06] <Misosaki> (the extra penny is for beer lol)
[04:06] <troy_s> Misosaki: All answers would stem from those two simple quesitons.
[04:07] <Misosaki> Yeah ... so do we know the answer to that?
[04:07] <wfarr> Misosaki: : I think both branding and unbranded can be done well. In the case of Windows and OSX, branding is not necessary because it is implied by the PC purchase. However, new linux users don't really have this distinct ideological separation - especially for blogs/magazines doing reviews of several linux distros throughout the year.
[04:07] <Misosaki> wb alex
[04:08] <troy_s> Misosaki: That said, the execution of anything takes a helluva lot of effort.  For example, if you were to put a public 'we want a sausage feel' out there, you can imagine all of the different executions.
[04:08] <troy_s> wfarr: Completely moot point.  You are _aware_ that you are installing Ubuntu.  I really find that logic completely flawed.
[04:08] <Misosaki> Maybe what wfarr is saying is PC = Win in a lot of people's minds ... so Linux is supposed to be a different experience
[04:09] <wfarr> troy_s: right - but for the people reading a review, of say, Fedora 7 - the distinctiveness of the artwork and the fedora logo right there makes a good mental connection between that image and Fedora
[04:09] <wfarr> with ubuntu, they see a brown wallpaper, but not a whole lot that tells even a person who's never heard of linux until now that _that_, and only that, is Ubuntu
[04:09] <troy_s> wfarr: Believe me -- good work begets good work.  If the entire execution works, it will become known.
[04:09] <Misosaki> Then again, could understand that people might not need the reminder (esp. when the logo is already on the menubar)
[04:09] <DanaG> Hmm, I haven't actually used the new wallpaper, but I must say, I don't like the new use of brown in the Tango icons.  Even if the wallpaper is brown, the icons should still be orange.
[04:10] <wfarr> DanaG: I surely hope you mean Human... >_>
[04:10] <DanaG> My 'Places' menu now looks like this: orange folder, orange folder, orange folder, orange folder, omgBROWN 'Computer'
[04:10] <troy_s> DanaG: Absolutely.  You might want a rounded out palette.  Take interior design -- you round out the entire presentation -- you don't have everything monochromatic green for example.
[04:10] <DanaG> Nope, Tango was changed, too.
[04:10] <DanaG> (Look in the changelog.)
[04:10] <troy_s> DanaG: Are you serious?
[04:11] <wfarr> A BROWN computer in Tango icon theme? o_O
[04:11] <troy_s> DanaG: ?
[04:11] <wfarr> I really doubt they'd do that to Tango.
[04:11] <troy_s> wfarr: Sounds suspect doesn't it?
[04:11] <wfarr> troy_s: quite
[04:11] <wfarr> I can expect that in Human
[04:11] <nothlit> are you sure you don't mean tangerine?
[04:11] <DanaG> In Gutsy.
[04:11] <wfarr> but not Tango
[04:11] <DanaG> Er, yeah.
[04:11] <troy_s> Phew.
[04:11] <wfarr> ah that makes sense
[04:11] <DanaG> Oops. I mixed up the two.
[04:11] <troy_s> DanaG: Quite a huge difference.
[04:11] <Misosaki> troy: With regards to execution, that's understandable, if not encouraged, as that's how new ideas come about too ... if everyone submitted a similar "sausage feel" then it'd just look somewhat the same each time
[04:12] <troy_s> DanaG: lapo comes in here often.  He is extremely open to public interest / feedback on Tangering.
[04:12] <troy_s> Tangerine even.
[04:12] <DanaG> 'even'?  That's a funny way of correcting yourself.
[04:12] <DanaG> I usually say, "er, I mean <whatever>"
[04:12] <troy_s> Misosaki: But you can appreciate the point that it might be a big deal if executed poorly.
[04:12] <Misosaki> Hi DanaG and Madpilot
[04:12] <Madpilot> hi
[04:12] <troy_s> Misosaki: Unfortunately, some are willing to throw out everything when execution fails.
[04:13] <troy_s> Madpilot: ltns
[04:13] <Misosaki> troy: Through out everything?
[04:13] <troy_s> Hilarious... It hasn't been this crowded in here in ... uh... let's just say ages.
[04:13] <Misosaki> *Throw
[04:13] <LaserJock> heah, I just wanted to drop by and say thanks to the art people and say that I like the Gutsy artwork
[04:13] <Madpilot> hmm, actual activity in -artwork. Was thinking that was verboten. ;)
[04:14] <troy_s> Misosaki: Well if something might 'limp' out of the gates with the execution -- it doesn't necessarily mean that the overall direction is bad.  It can simply mean the net result of a given attempt.
[04:15] <troy_s> Madpilot: LOL
[04:15] <Misosaki> troy: Yeah
[04:15] <troy_s> Madpilot: If only for the brief fleeting two seconds here and there when the debacle of default design rears its head.
[04:16] <LaserJock> troy_s: has there been any word from kwwii as to a decision regarding the default wallpaper?
[04:16] <wfarr> LaserJock: read UbuntuForums
[04:17] <wfarr> it seems it'll be revised a bit, but still default
[04:17] <LaserJock> good
[04:17] <LaserJock> I read the forums already
[04:17] <DanaG> I actually like both brown and orange, but I don't like when they are used inconsistently.
[04:17] <wfarr> while some (or maybe all of the "final" versions?) of the Animal set will be included but not the default setting
[04:17] <troy_s> LaserJock: Ultimately, he really doesn't have much of a say.  He just forwarded that swoopy thing to begin with (which felt like a Vista knock off immediately I might add and therefore probably appealing to sabdfl)
[04:18] <wfarr> which is, I suppose, the only realistic compromise for Gutsy anyway
[04:18] <wfarr> hopefully we won't have these issues come Hardy
[04:18] <troy_s> wfarr: We will.
[04:18] <troy_s> wfarr: It will suck.
[04:18] <Misosaki> lols
[04:18] <troy_s> wfarr: Without sounding defeatist.  Unless of course, sabdfl has a completely change of direction.
[04:19] <LaserJock> I like the default wallpaper
[04:19] <LaserJock> I also like the blue elephant, but think perhaps the current default is better for a default
[04:19] <Misosaki> When's work for Hardy going to start?
[04:19] <troy_s> LaserJock: Well... 30 odd percent will apparently.
[04:19] <DanaG> Oh yeah, remember the old thread about "Improve default theme"?  I wish I knew where that Golden Gate Bridge wallpaper came from.
[04:20] <LaserJock> troy_s: that's a decent number :-)
[04:20] <troy_s> LaserJock: I think tonally, the elephant texture would be off, but it could easily be brought into line.
[04:20] <Misosaki> *Or rather, when will they begin to discuss artwork for Hardy
[04:20] <troy_s> Misosaki: There won't be any.
[04:20] <LaserJock> I just think it's weird to have a gigantic animal skin on my desktop :-)
[04:20] <DanaG> Oh, and something that's always bugged me: the Human theme is orange, but the Metacity theme is brown.
[04:20] <Misosaki> troy: No?
[04:20] <troy_s> Misosaki: It will again wait until the last possible minute, then sabdfl will look at things and ... etc.
[04:20] <troy_s> DanaG: No palette.
[04:20] <Misosaki> Ah lols
[04:20] <troy_s> DanaG: No care to ever get a palette.
[04:20] <troy_s> DanaG: Etc.
[04:20] <DanaG> If you think animal-skin wallpaper is odd, take a look at skinit.com.
[04:21] <DanaG> Huh?
[04:21] <wfarr> troy_s: looks like we should talk to Diana some :p
[04:21] <wfarr> brb
[04:21] <troy_s> LaserJock: I think it could be a little more abstract, but ... let's see... IIRC Apple has one in their default walls for one release along the way (Trying to tie into the 'stalker / sleek' factor probably with the release of osx)
[04:21] <troy_s> wfarr: I can't stress it enough -- I have long been saying hire a trained person.
[04:22] <troy_s> wfarr: By no small chance, she happens to be an MFA.
[04:22] <troy_s> wfarr: Some could call coincidence, I wouldn't.
[04:22] <troy_s> wfarr: Try applying at apple for any low level grunt design / art job without a degree... Good luck on that.
[04:24] <Misosaki> Yeah, but getting proposals from the community (regardless of whether they will be taken up) costs less
[04:24] <Misosaki> And still promotes the "community DIY" spirit
[04:24] <LaserJock> not if they aren't chosen
[04:25] <troy_s> Misosaki: It still ends up in the same zone -- probably ill conceived.  Again, at least _attempting_ to achieve communication through the design is a starting point that many simply don't understand, don't want to understand, or don't know about.
[04:25] <DanaG> Hmm, another thing I've found missing in Ubuntu artwork: consistency from grub to bootsplash to gdm to kde/gnome splash.
[04:25] <Misosaki> No, LaserJock, but people don't have to know that lol
[04:25] <troy_s> DanaG: Consistency is a strange term.  Certainly one could make the case for palette (although kwwii managed to get some monochrome consistency during Feisty)
[04:25] <DanaG> Take a look at SuSE, for example.  That's the only one thing I miss from that distro.
[04:26] <DanaG> Though I guess bright screens on boot at 60Hz == ouch.
[04:26] <troy_s> DanaG: Consistency sometimes is taken too literally -- for example -- copying the same Image over and over.
[04:26] <DanaG> and vesafb-tng to fix that isn't minor, and doesn't fix nvidia, anyway.
[04:26] <troy_s> DanaG: Rather like taking your entire house and making it monochromatic, wrapping whatever wallpaper on _everything_ including the toilet, and calling it 'consistent'.
[04:26] <Misosaki> troy: Would agree ... just not sure what can be done about it from this end
[04:27] <DanaG> I guess it would also be hard to get the usplash and gdm logos to line up.
[04:27] <DanaG> Too much variation... gdm resolution, fb resolution, stretching.
[04:27] <troy_s> Misosaki: Well, no motif and you are crippled out of the gate.  No thematic, crippled.  No palette, crippled.  Etc.
[04:27] <troy_s> DanaG: Probably too literal for my tastes when someone starts aligning logos and such.  That said, classical composition is relatively simple to achieve mathmatically.
[04:28] <troy_s> Misosaki: I think the only thing that can be done is that we wait for the community to have it's artists and designers create decent work to compare against.
[04:29] <Misosaki> troy: Yeah ... but something like a palette isn't that difficult a thing to come up with, it's just astonishing that there's none established
[04:29] <troy_s> Misosaki: Diana is a step forwards in that regard, and I would suggest that she has had her hands tied quite badly thanks to garbage legacy 'how things ought to be' attitudes.
[04:30] <troy_s> Misosaki: Not at all.  Very simple.  I have at least five books on it in my library ranging from basic theory to more abstract palettes pulled from eras / nature / etc.
[04:30] <troy_s> Misosaki: Agreeing on the fact that we need one is harder.  sabdfl truly doesn't get it -- completely clueless on that regard.  He thinks adding colour to a wallpaper 'confuses its palette' i believe were his words.
[04:30] <Misosaki> troy: Yeah, just factoring the part about getting consensus over the palette
[04:30] <troy_s> Hilarious.
[04:31] <troy_s> Misosaki: Well... even within that, a small palette of say five colours could be interpreted across identical test layouts in a nearly infinite number of ways that greatly change the 'feel'.
[04:31] <Misosaki> Adding colour to a wallpaper is a no-no?
[04:31] <troy_s> Misosaki: Basically, yes.
[04:31] <Misosaki> Hi swj
[04:31] <swj> hi
[04:32] <troy_s> I think it is very healthy to at least have the discussions on the table.  Unfortunately, nothing will likely come of the matter.
[04:32] <troy_s> It is just that huge gap in care and attention from on high.
[04:32] <troy_s> (Well and the fact that everyone and their dog has some bikeshedding in them when it comes to things like this)
[04:32] <swj> I though I would "pop in" since the "wallpaper" debate started
[04:32] <swj> in the forums
[04:33] <LaserJock> or in the case of Edubuntu it'd be nice if anybody actually contributed artwork
[04:33] <troy_s> You and about 14 others here :)
[04:33] <troy_s> LaserJock: Again, I don't know if anyone is willing to get involved in things that have certain implied or explicitly stated limitations.
[04:33] <LaserJock> troy_s: there aren't really any in Edubuntu
[04:33] <DanaG> Hmm, I do like the orange, though -- it's quite a refreshing change after all the blue and silver and everything else that's overused.
[04:33] <LaserJock> other than it needs to fit in with the Edubuntu colors
[04:33] <troy_s> LaserJock: j and sabdfl get says -- and that is tied.
[04:34] <Misosaki> lols swj, welcome
[04:34] <LaserJock> I think sabdfl doesn't care so much when it's Edubuntu
[04:34] <troy_s> LaserJock: Well the logo colours are one thing.  The wallpaper and the rest of the design should probably be different.
[04:34] <LaserJock> usually the developers have to do some artwork, which is really bad ;-)
[04:34] <troy_s> LaserJock: Well... I seem to recall sabdfl and j chatting about that art thing, which has scared me way clear of that project.
[04:35] <troy_s> _way_
[04:35] <Misosaki> Which project was that?
[04:35] <LaserJock> well, in the past we've had issues
[04:35] <troy_s> (Also, and I feel I always need to state this publically, sabdfl is a bloody brilliant fellow.  His views on art and design are perhaps his greatest weakness from my vantage.  Thank you.  lol.)
[04:35] <troy_s> LaserJock: Every single Ubuntu project has issues.
[04:36] <LaserJock> but it seems like sabdfl seems to step in more when the community doesn't step up
[04:36] <troy_s> LaserJock: Look at K's default wallpaper if you want that immediate sense of 'hey this took 10 seconds -- do you like our distro?'
[04:36] <troy_s> LaserJock: Community stepping up takes so much time to build the ability to work / liase /etc.
[04:36] <LaserJock> heh, well I like kubuntu's wallpaper, but I'm not an artist
[04:36] <troy_s> LaserJock: It can't happen overnight.
[04:36] <swj> the issues I have is the "blocky" image @ 1280x1024 50 Hz Samsung LCD.  Also, since the image is so dark compiz shadows do not show up.  I understand everyone does not use a LCD monitor or compiz; however, compiz is the new thing thats being introduced into gusty...why not show it off with a lighter wallpaper?
[04:36] <LaserJock> troy_s: sure
[04:37] <troy_s> swj: It has been noted.  I am sure something will happen.  Maybe.  Possibly.  Perhaps.
[04:37] <troy_s> LaserJock: Olga also I think was a driving force there wasn't he?
[04:37] <troy_s> LaserJock: Re Edu.
[04:37] <LaserJock> Oliver?
[04:37] <troy_s> Or still is.
[04:37] <troy_s> yes.
[04:37] <LaserJock> he's the lead of Edubuntu
[04:38] <LaserJock> and he's the poor guy stuck doing everything but the wallpaper usually
[04:38] <wfarr> troy_s: the new edu wallpaper is actually nice, imo
[04:38] <DanaG> Oh, and I found an awesome orange tree wallpaper that's worthy of being alongside Dawn of Ubuntu:
[04:38] <DanaG> http://interfacelift.com/wallpaper/details.php?id=975
[04:38] <troy_s> wfarr: Linky?
[04:38] <DanaG> er, orange sunset.
[04:38] <LaserJock> luckily in the last couple week Jill Carpenter has stepped up to give us a new wallpaper
[04:38] <wfarr> troy_s: it was mentioned on groklaw today
[04:38] <wfarr> lemme find it
[04:38] <LaserJock> she's an artist with Groklaw
[04:38] <wfarr> (set-face-bold-p 'rcirc-my-nick t)
[04:38] <wfarr> (set-face-bold-p 'rcirc-nick-in-message t)
[04:38] <wfarr> (set-face-bold-p 'rcirc-other-nick t)
[04:39] <wfarr> er wrong buffer
[04:39] <wfarr> http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070921112733615
[04:39] <wfarr> scroll down
[04:39] <LaserJock> wfarr: we were very close to not getting anything at all
[04:39] <troy_s> wfarr: The sunset thing has been tried and tried.  Agree though, it certainly could work as a basic direction.
[04:39] <Misosaki> Hi dmccall
[04:39] <wfarr> LaserJock: ouch
[04:39] <dmccall> Hello
[04:39] <troy_s> wfarr: I would think it would work terrific as a basic direction if filled out properly.
[04:39] <LaserJock> wfarr: until Jill stepped up literally a couple weeks ago we had 0 gutys artwork
[04:40] <LaserJock> *gutsy
[04:40] <wfarr> troy_s: agreed
[04:40] <DanaG> What I liked about it is that it has shades of Dawn of Ubuntu, so people who have seen it will recognize the idea.
[04:40] <troy_s> Hey look -- a bit of a palette in there.  Woo.
[04:41] <troy_s> !
[04:41] <Misosaki> Heheh
[04:41] <troy_s> anyways... this is yet more rehashing.  Someone ping me if the upper membrane cares.  Thanks.
[04:42] <LaserJock> did anybody actually like Dawn of Ubuntu?
[04:42] <DanaG> I've always wondered why Ubuntu doesn't use fbsplash.
[04:42] <Madpilot> was 'Dawn of' that one with the tree?
[04:42] <LaserJock> yea
[04:42] <DanaG> For a while, I used Dawn Of, because I couldn't find any I liked better.
[04:42] <Madpilot> it was OK - too busy for my taste.
[04:42] <nothlit> DanaG: afaik  its a technical thing, fbsplash needs the framebuffer set up and working
[04:43] <troy_s> LaserJock: Dawn is great.  A little center punched compositionally for my tastes, but leagues better than anything Ubuntu has had before or since.
[04:43] <LaserJock> really?
[04:43] <LaserJock> I thought it was the worst wallpaper we ever had :(
[04:43] <troy_s> LaserJock: Absolutely.  Lol.
[04:43] <LaserJock> so much for my artistic taste ;-)
[04:43] <troy_s> LaserJock: Problem is that "Dawn" actually communicates something.  Being a bit on the 'devvy' side of things, you probably gravitate towards extreme uber-minimalist walls as a guess -- no?
[04:44] <troy_s> Maybe even sometimes just a gradient or a solid?
[04:44] <LaserJock> yes, dark
[04:44] <troy_s> lol
[04:44] <DanaG> I once patched my own kernel with fbsplash, and it still let usplash work uninhibited.
[04:44] <LaserJock> the smoot chocolate is my favorite
[04:44] <LaserJock> on OS X I use the b/w lightning pics
[04:44] <Madpilot> I love the gradient feature of Gnome's background, and the fact that you can use SVG - makes for all sorts of easily customizable stuff.
[04:44] <troy_s> LaserJock: Again, audience dictates all.
[04:44] <LaserJock> dark as I can get
[04:45] <DanaG> It'd be cool to have fbsplash support as a separate package for people who know how to use it.
[04:45] <Madpilot> I always wind up back at Shadow the Ubuntu Cat, though...
[04:45] <LaserJock> the usually default Ubuntu wallpapers are just so darn bright for me
[04:45] <troy_s> LaserJock: Once you start 'classifying' who you are aiming at, it is a helluva lot easier to get some sort of idea as to what is acceptable.
[04:45] <DanaG> Even if it's just the background part.
[04:45] <DanaG> Oh yeah, and another point of recent debate: font rendering changes.
[04:45] <DanaG> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=555964&page=4
[04:45] <LaserJock> besides, who looks at the artwork? '-)
[04:45] <troy_s> LaserJock: I suppose that's part of the problem -- there tends to be a lot of 'selfishness' when it comes to computers (as we should be with our own).
[04:46] <wfarr> DanaG: I much prefer the changes :)
[04:46] <DanaG> My last post: "Well, whether you like the old or the new is subjective; the best option is to choose something to be default, but add the other as a user-specific option if at all possible -- or at least as a debconf option."
[04:46] <DanaG> I like the old, myself.
[04:46] <dmccall> That Dawn of Ubuntu is really cool combined with the Spring and evening versions (forget their names..), especially hooked up with a little cronjob
[04:46] <troy_s> LaserJock: It is extremely difficult for just about anyone to work towards something that might not be in line with their own views.
[04:47] <LaserJock> sure
[04:47] <troy_s> LaserJock: It would appear that the default installation of Ubuntu should consider that very audience in all aspects when it comes to design.  People like to throw around 'For everyone' which is utter garbage.
[04:47] <swj> If Ubuntu is going to stay brown, I propose ubuntu goes back to warty colors...take away the orange icons and use different shades of brown...then lighten up the warty background and there ya go!
[04:47] <troy_s> LaserJock: Even breaking into smaller groups is difficult.
[04:48] <LaserJock> swj: but I like it the way it is :-)
[04:48] <troy_s> swj: Monochrome?  Yikes.  In fact, I could probably make a pretty solid case that the 'i hate brown' argument is solely based around the fact that NEVER has a palette been properly implemented in ubuntu to round out the brown.
[04:48] <swj> I have to admit the warty days were good times...first time I ever used linux
[04:48] <troy_s> swj: If you are trying to achieve a 'wow that is green' feeling, you _always_ require a point of reference.  In photography it is often white light.  In painting, a complimentary colour works well.  Etc.
[04:49] <troy_s> swj: That could be nostalgia talking then.  ;)
[04:49] <wfarr> troy_s: what do you think of the Human GTK+ theme?
[04:49] <swj> well, perhaps...but I liked the warty brown...and I still do.
[04:49] <troy_s> wfarr: Ambivalent.
[04:50] <troy_s> wfarr: The fonts are horribly heavy in the window bar, but I don't know what the 'design' is really going for.
[04:50] <swj> the yellows, oranges have caused more commotion than anything....lately
[04:50] <wfarr> troy_s: as compared to SUSE's Gilouche?
[04:50] <DanaG> Brown is cool if done well.  I just don't know how to do it myself.
[04:51] <troy_s> wfarr: I don't really look to other distros.  I find most of them rather heavy (outlined buttons in the name of 'function' etc.)
[04:51] <dmccall> As I wrote in the Ubuntu wiki, I think the only thing that's causing the commotion with orange and yellow and brown is that the images of those colours never actually show anything. The imagination gets a bit carried away...
[04:51] <troy_s> dmccall: _amen_
[04:52] <LaserJock> dmccall: what do you mean?
[04:52] <troy_s> wfarr: People will cite fitts law etc., and try to design around it without caring about perhaps the number one 'addage' -- aesthetic of application.
[04:52] <wfarr> heh
[04:52] <wfarr> I like Gilouche personally
[04:52] <troy_s> LaserJock: Without something to connote -- brown becomes 'welcome back to poo'.
[04:52] <wfarr> the latest incarnation is kind of nice
[04:52] <troy_s> LaserJock: Look at starbucks if you want to see some wonderful design with brown.
[04:52] <dmccall> If the image helps the imagination, gives people some pointer that "this is not of manure", people get a lot less carried away thinking of the huge number of gross things it could be
[04:53] <LaserJock> why in the world do people think it looks like manure?
[04:53] <troy_s> dmccall: Moreover, any colour when used alone is monotonous as hell.
[04:53] <troy_s> LaserJock: No connection to any emotion.
[04:53] <LaserJock> ?
[04:53] <DanaG> Now if yyou reall ant to see manure on a wallpaper, look at the Mandolux.com wallpaper with the yellow "RIAA" flag in a pile of poo.
[04:53] <troy_s> LaserJock: It is a symptom of ineffective design.
[04:53] <troy_s> lol
[04:54] <troy_s> DanaG: lol.
[04:54] <LaserJock> doesn't make any sense to me, oh well
[04:54] <LaserJock> I like the brown and orange
[04:54] <dmccall> Because they're crazy, of course! Just seems the common negative crit for most Ubuntu wallpapers
[04:54] <LaserJock> seems like people being idiots to me personally
[04:54] <troy_s> LaserJock: Tonally, they aren't even in the same value range etc.  Orange and brown need some work to dance together.
[04:55] <troy_s> LaserJock: More symptoms.  I think the knee jerk reaction in the mind is 'this isn't working' and it vocalizes itself in a number of rather idiodic comments sometimes.
[04:55] <LaserJock> hmm, it's always worked very well for me
[04:55] <LaserJock> when I switched to Ubuntu it was something new and fresh
[04:56] <LaserJock> no long stuck with the stupid blues and greens that *everybody* else was doing
[04:56] <troy_s> LaserJock: Brown is a beautiful tonal range.  Earthy etc.  I just wouldn't be inclined to use it in the manner that Ubuntu has (monochromatic, no palette to back it up, etc
[04:56] <troy_s> LaserJock: _AMEN_
[04:56] <DanaG> Oh yeah, any idea where this wallpaper came from?  http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=441979&page=29
[04:56] <DanaG> That's what I'm using now.
[04:56] <troy_s> LaserJock: Ubuntu is a _choice_ away from MS and Apple, and as such the default design should be reflective of that.
[04:57] <LaserJock> troy_s: I can see the palette thing
[04:57] <LaserJock> but it doesn't seem horrible
[04:57] <LaserJock> but I'm not an artist
[04:57] <LaserJock> so well, I should just shut up ;-)
[04:58] <troy_s> LaserJock: It isn't really 'horrible' alone.  I think we are talking about trying (attempting to because it isn't that damn easy) achieve some sort of emotional connection (elevated)
[04:58] <LaserJock> you don't think the wallpapers so far (including the current Gutsy one) have emotional connection?
[04:59] <LaserJock> or just not enough?
[04:59] <troy_s> LaserJock: Absolutely 100% in no way do they achieve any level of emotional connection or stimulation.
[04:59] <dmccall> My thought on brown is that it's the most prominent colour in nature, yet also one of the most unused in design. I think, with the right symbols, it can connect really well with people, just because it is such a common sight in day-to-day life.
[04:59] <troy_s> LaserJock: Erm... let me correct that -- I firmly believe that with a full palette and the rest of it, the Warty and Hoary wallpapers were a step in the right direction.
[04:59] <dmccall> So there is a bit of wasted potential here, with a brown theme but no brown objects...
[05:00] <LaserJock> troy_s: pardon the stupid question, why do I need an emotional connection with my wallpaper?
[05:00] <LaserJock> it's a stinkin' computer
[05:00] <troy_s> LaserJock: But we get stuck with this monochromatic hellish uberconservatism as though Ubuntu were controlling market share and had a lot to lose.
[05:00] <Misosaki> LaserJock: Maybe not so much an emotional connection as with any kind of connection
[05:00] <Misosaki> That's positive
[05:00] <troy_s> LaserJock: I don't think you do.  At all.  If you look at it simply however, how much of your social life, your regular lifestyle etc, depends on a computer?
[05:00] <LaserJock> sure
[05:01] <troy_s> LaserJock: Further, I wouldn't suggest for a minute that you would be a demographic that I would aim a default installation at.
[05:01] <LaserJock> but *not* on my wallpaper
[05:01] <Misosaki> That stems from two key questions troy (and I) have been asking
[05:01] <LaserJock> my wallpaper has 0 to do with my emotion or computer usage
[05:01] <LaserJock> I just want the darn thing to not get in the way
[05:02] <troy_s> LaserJock: Yes.  And I can understand that.  What you are perhaps ignoring is that a mainstream user of say average knowledge in computing sees things possibly differently.
[05:02] <swj> I think more than anything it is the orange icons...I don't get it.  I can not find a connection...
[05:02] <LaserJock> well, I've been in distro development long enough to know that that's a possibility :-)
[05:02] <LaserJock> I just wonder how quantified that is
[05:03] <troy_s> LaserJock: There is an immediate and visceral connection with design communication.  It is a well studied and learned craft when it comes to design in mainstream big business. (Granted it hasn't always been that way until some company realized that they could make money off of better work.)
[05:03] <LaserJock> like do the majority of Ubuntu users even care what the wallpaper looks like?
[05:03] <Misosaki> A wallpaper has both functional and artistic elements. Part of the functional is representing the OS -- so it should communicate the tenets of the OS, or something in relation to the OS.
[05:03] <troy_s> LaserJock: Probably yes.
[05:03] <LaserJock> if they are windows users I don't see why they'd care so much
[05:03] <troy_s> LaserJock: And more importantly, our 'life' as Ubuntu depends on a healthy following -- perhaps meaning more mainstream users.
[05:03] <troy_s> LaserJock: They do.
[05:04] <troy_s> LaserJock: Do you care what you wear?
[05:04] <LaserJock> I've *never* seen a windows user that had anything but the default windows wallpaper
[05:04] <troy_s> LaserJock: How your hair is?
[05:04] <troy_s> LaserJock: How someone else looks?
[05:04] <troy_s> LaserJock: How perhaps your computer looks sitting in your office or living room?
[05:04] <troy_s> LaserJock: How your car looks?
[05:04] <troy_s> LaserJock: Get my point?
[05:04] <LaserJock> sure
[05:04] <troy_s> And your statement is a damming one.
[05:04] <swj> ok, I'll ask this way...is it just my model of the world, i.e., only inside my head, that light brown and bright orange do not mix well together?
[05:05] <LaserJock> but I think you're making the default wallpaper a bit too important
[05:05] <troy_s> swj: If you are speaking with concrete relationship to the orange and brown in Ubuntu, you are spot on in terms of colour theory.
[05:05] <Misosaki> Depends on how light a brown and how bright an orange ... and how they're used, swj
[05:05] <dmccall> Laserjock: Interesting thing. I recently met someone who looked like she /must/ have been technologically impaired, who had gone through all the Windows wallpapers and wanted more to spruce up her desktop. I was shocked!
[05:05] <DanaG> I like both, but not together as they are now.
[05:05] <swj> yes, I speaking with respect to ubuntu
[05:05] <swj> the current human theme
[05:05] <LaserJock> I'm sure it must happen sometimes
[05:05] <LaserJock> but how *much* does it happen?
[05:06] <Misosaki> In the ways they've often been used recently, maybe not
[05:06] <dmccall> (She was followed shortly after by the "my computer didn't come with spell check" type, who we should also want to appeal to with something pretty)
[05:06] <troy_s> swj: Colours however, also have a good bloody percentage of 'contemporary style' driving them.
[05:06] <troy_s> LaserJock: Let's put it this way, the much lauded Apple team of well educated designers is an extremely well paid core.
[05:06] <troy_s> LaserJock: And they get results.
[05:06] <LaserJock> sure
[05:06] <troy_s> LaserJock: As is every movie you have ever seen.
[05:07] <troy_s> LaserJock: Every commercial -- for example, Samuel Bayer makes approximately 30000 us per day.
[05:07] <troy_s> LaserJock: ALL he deals with is aesthetic.
[05:07] <LaserJock> but the Apple wallpaper is the same un-emotional thing that you're saying doesn't work?
[05:07] <troy_s> (albeit in a completely crazy freakish way when he is doing it.)
[05:07] <troy_s> LaserJock: Not at all.
[05:07] <LaserJock> so I get confused
[05:07] <troy_s> LaserJock: Look to how it fits within the greater picture.
[05:07] <LaserJock> Apple's artwork looks to me basically as good as Ubuntu's
[05:07] <troy_s> LaserJock: Look at their decision to change wallpapers to green grass.
[05:08] <DanaG> That bridge wallpaper does brown and orange well -- look at the shadows of the wires.  That's one awesome effect.
[05:08] <troy_s> LaserJock: It used that rather 'gemlike' gradient that became standard.  Further, the style is echoed throughout the presentation.
[05:08] <troy_s> LaserJock: Although yes, the wallpaper probably could have been more evocative.  Perhaps that is why the newer one is far more evocative.
[05:08] <LaserJock> alright, well I've just got to defer to the professionals
[05:08] <troy_s> LaserJock: Who is a professional here :)
[05:09] <LaserJock> unlike the rather annoying  hordes on the forums
[05:09] <troy_s> LaserJock: And I find everyone's opinions on Ubuntu's direction quite interesting.
[05:09] <LaserJock> hmm
[05:10] <troy_s> LaserJock:  The hordes on the forums are more mainstream than what appears in IRC.  Forums are a first point contact for a new user.  I wouldn't underrate them.
[05:10] <LaserJock> I don't
[05:10] <troy_s> LaserJock: Let's face it... None of us really know what it takes to push a mainstream operating system into the future.  Arguably, neither does Apple nor MS.
[05:10] <LaserJock> most days I wish they would go away, but that's just my opinion
[05:10] <LaserJock> ;-)
[05:10] <troy_s> LaserJock: LOL.
[05:11] <Misosaki> They're probably one of the first signs that something is wrong, even if not everyone can articulate the problems.
[05:11] <troy_s> LaserJock: It would seem that we as FOSS people should be more willing to take risks and fail than we are.
[05:11] <troy_s> Misosaki: At least a possible 'gauge'.
[05:11] <troy_s> LaserJock: We have certainly taken our fair share of uber conservative risks with ubuntu.
[05:11] <troy_s> :)
[05:11] <LaserJock> well, at this point we have a lot at stake
[05:11] <Misosaki> troy: Exactly. Then again, whether they're the entire intended "audience" is another debate.
[05:12] <LaserJock> thinking about enterprise/corporate/government users
[05:12] <LaserJock> having an OS that looks amatuerish or like a toy can be a problem
[05:12] <LaserJock> changing branding can be a problem
[05:13] <troy_s> LaserJock: But that isn't the backbone that built Ubuntu.  Seems ... two faced.
[05:13] <LaserJock> I don't know
[05:13] <troy_s> LaserJock: What is branding?
[05:13] <LaserJock> Ubuntu is the brown OS
[05:13] <troy_s> LaserJock: If I say 'coca cola' do you know what i mean or do you need white red with a curl.  How do you feel about their new foray into the contemporary design on the cans?
[05:13] <LaserJock> many forums users wanted us to go to blue or green
[05:14] <LaserJock> troy_s: their brand is already established
[05:14] <Misosaki> Why blue or green?
[05:14] <troy_s> LaserJock: Sure, and people used to say that Apple was blue and that was part of their branding.
[05:14] <LaserJock> because that's what the forums user say
[05:14] <troy_s> LaserJock: Now it is black and green.
[05:15] <swj> sabdfl wrote that the theme color is subject to change a long time ago
[05:15] <LaserJock> personally I think the "average user" is not what we should shoot for
[05:15] <troy_s> LaserJock: There have been umpteen clueless and ill researched individuals who have posted regarding how brown doesn't work on human brains.  Ignore that.
[05:15] <troy_s> Its all tripe.
[05:15] <LaserJock> we should be shooting for corporate/oem/enterprise
[05:15] <Misosaki> Yeah, but why do the forum users say they want blue or green? Because of the association with the other OSes (which many protest against)?
[05:15] <Madpilot> Misosaki, because both MS & Apple use it, so those colours mean "computer" to a lot of people?
[05:15] <troy_s> Colour is one part theory, one part contemporary design trend, and one part completely chance.
[05:16] <troy_s> Madpilot: Actually apple is now green and black.
[05:16] <Misosaki> Yeah, Madpilot, but that's the paradox
[05:16] <troy_s> Madpilot: So that is moot.  The point being that Apple's designers even realized blue was dead.
[05:16] <LaserJock> troy_s: yeah, but that's not really out that much yet is it?
[05:16] <LaserJock> I mean, Apple was white
[05:16] <LaserJock> and now it's got the black/aluminum thing going on
[05:16] <Misosaki> On the one hand, some feel the need to have Ubuntu distinguish itself from other OSes, and yet borrow their UI?
[05:17] <troy_s> LaserJock: It's everywhere.
[05:17] <troy_s> LaserJock: Look at the iphone
[05:17] <Madpilot> Misosaki, ya, it doesn't make any sense to me, either.
[05:18] <LaserJock> well, I've never seen an iphone
[05:18] <troy_s> LaserJock: Black is the new white, and apple is in for an image overhaul.  Gone is the gloss.
[05:18] <LaserJock> and I've never touched an ipod
[05:18] <Misosaki> What does the audience want, what does the community want and what do Ubuntu's leaders want?
[05:18] <Madpilot> I want a beer.
[05:18] <troy_s> (although the cheesball wet floors are still around -- thank you Whitesnake and car advertisements of the 90s.
[05:18] <troy_s> Misosaki: Three totally different audiences.
[05:18] <troy_s> Misosaki: Erm two.
[05:18] <LaserJock> well, in reality I think this art stuff is really frustrating
[05:18] <LaserJock> everybody is a critic
[05:18] <Misosaki> troy: Exactly.
[05:19] <troy_s> LaserJock: Amen.
[05:19] <LaserJock> but nobody seems to contribute much
[05:19] <troy_s> LaserJock: Double amen.
[05:19] <dmccall> I wouldn't say it's that bad to borrow the uis. The far superior UI infrastructure in GNOME makes borrowing Windows / Mac interfaces more like rescuing them from poor accessibility and rigid layouts :P
[05:19] <troy_s> LaserJock: The problem is that you can't really just sit down and contribute a snippit.
[05:19] <LaserJock> right
[05:19] <troy_s> LaserJock: For example, when you contribute in code, you choose a project that might use a certain library over another etc...  Art and design is a little different.  Maybe you don't agree with the direction, or you really like someone's approach.
[05:19] <troy_s> Etc.
[05:20] <troy_s> Also, Free Artware is uh... new.
[05:20] <LaserJock> it seems like it'd be better to have an artwork mentoring team
[05:20] <LaserJock> like to get everybody on the same page
[05:20] <LaserJock> and understanding the basic elements needed, etc.
[05:20] <troy_s> Thankfully all the devs of Free Software have made it popular enough that we can at least gripe about its design and presentation!
[05:20] <Misosaki> There's a team? lols
[05:21] <dmccall> troy_s: I disagree that it's hard to contribute. I'm not a huge contributor, but I'm having quite a bit of fun with some usability errors today. Not hard to pop in and help out, especially when it is just some fiddling with Glade.
[05:21] <troy_s> dmccall: Usability?  Rather easy term to use but what does that mean?
[05:21] <troy_s> dmccall: Usability, again a partner of design, is predicated on an audience.
[05:21] <troy_s> dmccall: Do you mean for Henrik Omma?
[05:21] <nothlit> troy_s: i've started work on a set of hardy wiki pages https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/hardy/wikipage.txt
[05:22] <troy_s> dmccall: Or TheMuso?
[05:22] <dmccall> Gnome-app-install uses Close where it should use Quit, and makes some time-wasting assumptions ;)
[05:22] <troy_s> dmccall: Again, we in FOSS flop those politically correct terms around without considering that it all comes down to audience.
[05:22] <swj> going back to colors...I always though brown and green should have been the choice, instead of brown and orange
[05:22] <LaserJock> well, I hope that this gutsy wallpaper thing might help the art team to gain some new people
[05:23] <troy_s> LaserJock: People haven't been the problem.  There are a good number of very talented folks out there.
[05:23] <dmccall> Yah, a green background does look pretty awesome here. Especially some rounded green grass
[05:23] <LaserJock> troy_s: but it seems so scattered
[05:23] <troy_s> LaserJock: The bigger problem is agreeing 1) that there is a problem. 2) what direction to take.  3) execute it flawlessly.
[05:23] <troy_s> everyone of those notes is massive.
[05:23] <troy_s> LaserJock: Nothing more than sabdfl's fault.
[05:23] <troy_s> Solely.
[05:23] <LaserJock> sure
[05:23] <troy_s> (and again, he is a helluva brilliant guy make no mistake)
[05:24] <LaserJock> so can you work around him?
[05:24] <swj> ok do any of you like the orange human icons?
[05:24] <troy_s> Momentum and interest are fleeting capacities.  Next week it will all change.
[05:24] <LaserJock> swj: I do, quite a lot
[05:24] <DanaG> Hmm, here's what Gateway has as their default wallpaper: http://img222.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gateway7wi.jpg
[05:24] <swj> hmm
[05:24] <DanaG> Oh, and the orange-liney wallpaper on the 'ideas' page reminded me quite a lot of HP's design.
[05:25] <troy_s> LaserJock: What is there to be gained by 'working around' someone?  The simple fact of the matter is that somewhere, someone will hate the work no matter what.
[05:25] <troy_s> LaserJock: In this case, it is xx%, in the next it will be yy%.
[05:25] <LaserJock> DanaG: urgg, I'd not use that gateway stuff
[05:25] <dmccall> Anyway, I popped in here really to point hurriedly at some GNOME icons which have snuck their way into the Human icon set. Seems it is falling back to them because of dependencies, and they look really out of place. For example, the stock Delete icon.
[05:25] <swj> DanaG: it sooo blocky ;)
[05:25] <DanaG> Odd resolution: 1920x1680.  However, it makes sense: it works for 1920x1200 in landscape, and 1680x1050 in portrait, if centered.
[05:25] <DanaG> It's shrunk by ImageShack.
[05:25] <troy_s> dmccall: Post a bug with the details on launchpad?
[05:26] <troy_s> dmccall: That would probably help the people who need to know.
[05:26] <DanaG> But the odd resolution is a cool idea.
[05:26] <troy_s> swj: Default folder?
[05:26] <Misosaki> Hmm ... so the theme is "what Ubuntu means to you" for Hardy?
[05:26] <DanaG> anyway, /me must go.  BBL.
[05:26] <LaserJock> troy_s: well, what I'm saying is why not get a team and create a direction, palette,  etc. and have a nice package ready to go
[05:26] <Misosaki> Sorry, should be *what thematically represents Ubuntu to you*
[05:26] <troy_s> LaserJock: Some of us do.
[05:26] <troy_s> LaserJock: Some don't.
[05:26] <swj> troy_s, I missed the question
[05:26] <Misosaki> Laters DanaG
[05:27] <nothlit> DanaG: tangerine falls back on g-i-t because its more complete and current than tango
[05:27] <LaserJock> Misosaki: brown!!!
[05:27] <troy_s> LaserJock: It's evolutionary. It is damn hard to get people to work together as you well know.  It takes a helluva lot of time and dedication when it isn't a heck of a lot of fun.
[05:27] <Misosaki> LaserJock: That's a start lol
[05:27] <LaserJock> troy_s: sure, I'm totally with you on that
[05:27] <dmccall> swj: I like the orange icons; they do well being not too numerous, but tasteful enough when they are. The only questionable ones for me are Nautilus' Emblems, which are not very coherent compared to the GNOME ones.
[05:28] <dmccall> (Of course, that thought is two minutes off topic)
[05:28] <nothlit> Misosaki: well, i think the aim of the community side is to inspire fresh new ideas, that will work with ubuntu
[05:28] <troy_s> LaserJock: And hell... everyone creates crap.  I do it regularily.
[05:29] <troy_s> LaserJock: But to get to something decent, you rather need to get through that crap.
[05:29] <LaserJock> yep
[05:29] <Misosaki> nothlit: Well, another part of it is what theme will be used in Hardy?
[05:30] <troy_s> LaserJock: Only the crap that one generates for visual is seen by everyone -- not just some kernel coder who goes 'jesus that code is godawful ugly.' lol.
[05:30] <troy_s> Misosaki: None.
[05:30] <troy_s> Misosaki: If you are speaking a motif etc.
[05:30] <LaserJock> troy_s: umm, we do some pretty ugly stuff that everybody sees too ;-)
[05:30] <troy_s> LOL
[05:30] <Misosaki> Kind of obvious, but wallpaper should work with the theme ... by theme I mean things like menubars, icons etc.
[05:30] <LaserJock> i.e. OMG where did X go?
[05:30] <swj> I just noticed the minimize (using compiz) professionally minimizes now...thats nice!
[05:30] <troy_s> LOL
[05:31] <troy_s> LaserJock: Yeah its a hellish world.
[05:31] <swj> ...gusty lastest updates
[05:31] <troy_s> LaserJock: Its sad because the art and design element is soooo tied into application development, but the two appear to operate in complete isolation.
[05:32] <LaserJock> amen to that
[05:32] <LaserJock> same with docs
[05:32] <LaserJock> it's very difficult to get all three elements together
[05:32] <dmccall> Speaking of docs, are there any plans to give those a fresh layout in Hardy?
[05:33] <LaserJock> dmccall: how do you mean?
[05:33] <dmccall> Well, they're a tad weird to use...
[05:33] <LaserJock> how so?
[05:34] <dmccall> There is the next and previous thing at the bottom, which is really quite useful, hidden away by being very small and (at the moment due to a bug) requiring some extra scrolling to get to
[05:34] <Misosaki> nothlit: Well ... how can the wallpaper designers ensure their work will look good with the work the icon designers are putting out, unless they're the same person?
[05:34] <LaserJock> dmccall: I'm sure there will be more work on that for Hardy, the help viewer had some major changes for gutsy so there's some remaining bugs
[05:35] <dmccall> Ah, I see
[05:35] <LaserJock> Misosaki: communication I'd say
[05:36] <Misosaki> If there's no dialogue between departments, then that's where a blueprint comes in
[05:36] <nothlit> Misosaki: in terms of general colours, they will if we follow what ubuntu's been doing so far
[05:36] <nothlit> Misosaki: we cannot create an entire new icon set for each release
[05:36] <nothlit> and plus it has to mesh with whats out there
[05:36] <troy_s> LaserJock: It is almost as though Ubuntu is stressing the 'oldschool' free software design model.
[05:37] <LaserJock> troy_s: how do you mean?
[05:37] <nothlit> Misosaki: from speaking to lapo, there isn't going to be any individualisation of the icons, besides a simple palette change
[05:37] <Misosaki> Probably, but it would help if everyone were told in advance what they have to work with, instead of doing work and then finding out it doesn't fit in the "overall picture"
[05:37] <troy_s> Misosaki: It is an almost too literal thing to do, but having a concrete palette in place with concrete usage details at least helps to coordinate that aspect.
[05:37] <troy_s> LaserJock: Well because Ubuntu has gotten to be such a huge monster (still an infant in the grand scheme of things)
[05:37] <wfarr> nothlit: personally I'd rather default to GIT2 anyway
[05:38] <wfarr> it's getting better each release of GNOME
[05:38] <Misosaki> troy: Which is one of the things we seem to be lacking at the moment
[05:38] <troy_s> LaserJock: That certain elements that are 'weak' are becoming more apparent.
[05:38] <LaserJock> troy_s: agreed
[05:38] <troy_s> Misosaki: Yep, and it will never happen with the current uh... design vector as it were ;)(
[05:38] <LaserJock> lots of growing pains
[05:38] <troy_s> Misosaki: As per the nature of relativistic thought, if you stuff three people in a room every one will have a different take on something as simple as flipping a coin.
[05:39] <Misosaki> troy: lols ... which is what I'm trying to ask nothlit ... there's no palette
[05:39] <troy_s> Misosaki: Which is why I am a huge proponent of having a clearly defined audience and a clearly defined communication goal.
[05:39] <troy_s> Misosaki: That sort of thing requires the approval of up high, and again, I just can't see it happening.
[05:39] <Misosaki> Nor any actual communication objectives
[05:39] <troy_s> Misosaki: Even when you put up clearly monochromatic tones on a wiki, no one seems able to follow them.
[05:40] <troy_s> Misosaki: So I don't know.  Look at the wiki for the 'ideas' page -- not one is close tonally nevermind content.
[05:40] <troy_s> lol
[05:40] <Misosaki> troy: lols Maybe they think rules are made to be broken
[05:40] <Misosaki> ;)
[05:41] <troy_s> Misosaki:  Tried something like that back in the dark ages.  The result was underwhelming to sabdfl (as you can see clearly where his aesthetic lay) and as a result, the entire effort was for not (the bulk of which was evolving a smidge of a community and a smidge of organization and a smidge of collaboration / discussion)
[05:42] <nothlit> Misosaki: this is the closest we have/are allowed https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/sabdflAesthetic?highlight=%28artwork%29
[05:42] <troy_s> In the end, it seemed sad and frustrating.  Ignore it.  Contribute to a project that desires it.
[05:43] <troy_s> nothlit: And that was nothing more than me sampling the damn colours from all of the 'sabdfl approved' bits that had evolved.  I wouldn't read too much into that being as I was the one who bothered to collect them.
[05:44] <Misosaki> lols
[05:45] <Misosaki> Though people take that sampling to mean they can combine colours on it
[05:45] <Misosaki> And even combine the colours there with other "very different" colours, e.g. blue
[05:45] <Misosaki> Or green ;)
[05:47] <troy_s> Misosaki: Or things that aren't even close to the target.  Its more of the same.  Probably growing pains, but no one will be around long enough to grow lol.
[05:47] <Misosaki> lol
[05:47] <Misosaki> Hi alphasubzero
[05:48] <alphasubzero949> hi
[06:12] <BHSPitMonkey> are we talking about the wallpaper in here?  :|
[06:13] <Misosaki> If you want to talk about it
[06:14] <BHSPitMonkey> I thought we were past dapper-brown already :(
[06:15] <Misosaki> troy will have his Throne Speech ready
[06:15] <Misosaki> ;)
[06:15] <BHSPitMonkey> oh I'm sure
[06:15] <Misosaki> What's wrong with dapper-brown?
[06:15] <BHSPitMonkey> it's... depressing
[06:16] <BHSPitMonkey> murky
[06:16] <Misosaki> What do you suggest then?
[06:16] <BHSPitMonkey> versus the bright, vibrant, clean ranges in the past few releases
[06:17] <BHSPitMonkey> I suggest that wallpaper is bundled as an extra :)
[06:17] <Misosaki> If that wallpaper is bundled as an extra, what should the default be?
[06:18] <nothlit> brownfluid will be relightened and noisefree afaik
[06:18] <BHSPitMonkey> Misosaki, I'm only prepared to submit my discontent with the current choice right now :)
[06:20] <Misosaki> BHSPitMonkey: Ah ... did you by any chance already post in DefaultWallpaperCriteria?
[06:21] <BHSPitMonkey> no, I haven't been as actively following this release's art drama as in past releases sadly
[06:22] <BHSPitMonkey> first month at uni, quite busy
[06:22] <BHSPitMonkey> the Digg story perked my attention to be honest
[06:22] <Misosaki> There's already a forum thread, though some people are posting on the wiki page so the feedback is in one (or two) places
[06:23] <Misosaki> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Gutsy/DefaultWallpaperCriteria
[06:24] <Misosaki> Forum thread: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=555477
[06:26] <Misosaki> The visuals are set for Gutsy, so a change not happen ... but maybe it would help with things in the next release
[06:27] <Misosaki> *so a change might not
[06:28] <Misosaki> wb
[06:29] <BHSPitMonkey> heh, the animal-skin submissions are interesting
[06:30] <BHSPitMonkey> 'cept it kind of confuses me, how it fits in with a "Human" theme.
[06:30] <BHSPitMonkey> Linux for human beings, with fur
[06:30] <BHSPitMonkey> and they aren't scalable
[06:30] <Misosaki> Human beings have fur. :|
[06:30] <BHSPitMonkey> heh
[06:30] <Misosaki> ;)
[06:30] <BHSPitMonkey> not giraffe fur
[06:31] <Misosaki> Sure ... on October 31st
[06:31] <BHSPitMonkey> but really
[06:32] <Misosaki> Not quoting the artist, but it apparently it's Africa - Ubuntu - Community
[06:32] <dmccall> Human has always struck me as allowing for anything that is natural; everything that has an impact on being human
[06:32] <dmccall> Be it grass, trees or giraffes
[06:33] <BHSPitMonkey> grass is taken ;)
[06:33] <Misosaki> Maybe consider it to have broader associations
[06:33] <Skwid_> has there been any decisions regarding the final wallpaper ?
[06:33] <Misosaki> hi Skwid
[06:33] <dmccall> Grass actually looks awesome with this theme, by the way. All we need is an SVG magician
[06:33] <BHSPitMonkey> Skwid_, digg?  :)
[06:34] <BHSPitMonkey> #inkscape :)
[06:34] <Skwid_> BHSPitMonkey: ? digg makes decisions now ? :)
[06:34] <Skwid_> hello Misosaki
[06:34] <BHSPitMonkey> Skwid_, no, just wondering if you happened to bounce from there :)
[06:34] <Skwid_> personally, I just put the elephant wallpaper and i think it looks great
[06:34] <Misosaki> Yes, Skwid
[06:34] <BHSPitMonkey> (an article just surfaced there about the wallpaper decision)
[06:34] <Skwid_> BHSPitMonkey: not really, do you get a lot of digg wanderers around here ?
[06:35] <nothlit> i haven't seen any in here
[06:35] <Misosaki> dmccall, did you mention there's a post somewhere on it in the forum, about the final wallpaper decision?
[06:35] <BHSPitMonkey> Skwid_, well, I was in here already, but the digg article prompted me to start talking about it a few minutes ago
[06:35] <Skwid_> ah ok
[06:36] <Skwid_> i'm really impressed how good my ubuntu desktop looks compared to just a few months ago ... with things such as compiz, fusion, cairo, awn, murrine, screenlets ...
[06:36] <Skwid_> and i love the icons included in ubuntu :)
[06:37] <dmccall> Misosaki: No, I don't think I mentioned that...
[06:37] <Misosaki> Seems like quite a few people are coming in wanting to know about the wallpaper, so might as well have links ready
[06:37] <Skwid_> anyways, I just wanted to see what the final call was for the wallpapers before going to bed
[06:38] <Misosaki> dmccall: Nvm, mind then, sorry ... someone did earlier
[06:38] <BHSPitMonkey> Skwid_, how did you get screenlets working by the way
[06:38] <BHSPitMonkey> I'm looking to try them out to replace my gdesklets
[06:38] <dmccall> Skqid: Yah, Clearlooks is pretty swell now, too. Tough to choose between it and Human :/
[06:38] <Misosaki> Skwid: Brownfluid it is, though apparently it will be revised
[06:38] <Skwid_> BHSPitMonkey: hum, i use the repo
[06:39] <BHSPitMonkey> Skwid_, default, or a 3rd party?
[06:39] <BHSPitMonkey> I don't believe I saw them in the ubuntus
[06:39] <Skwid_> Misosaki: ah :( oh well, I'll be rogue and stick with my animals then :)
[06:39] <Misosaki> Something from the Animals set will be included as well, but not as the default one
[06:40] <Skwid_> BHSPitMonkey: http://hendrik.kaju.pri.ee/screenlets/?q=node/5
[06:40] <BHSPitMonkey> I am frankly more concerned with what gets presented to new users in a default desktop than what ships for me personally
[06:40] <Skwid_> BHSPitMonkey: yeah exactly
[06:41] <Skwid_> everybody changes their wallpaper anyways, but for demos/liveCD etc it might make a difference
[06:41] <BHSPitMonkey> I try to promote ubuntu pretty vigilantly, but it's hard to do so when I show somebody and feel embarrassed by it.
[06:41] <BHSPitMonkey> "sorry it's so ugly, you can change that"
[06:41] <Skwid_> :)
[06:41] <Skwid_> it's hard because people are not accustomed to the idea of being able to change every single bit of your UI
[06:42] <BHSPitMonkey> "linux is all about customization, which is why the defaults weren't given too much consideration honestly."
[06:42] <Skwid_> they're used to 'what you see on first boot is what you get'
[06:42] <wfarr> BHSPitMonkey: that line of thinking really grills me
[06:42] <BHSPitMonkey> wfarr, are you agreeing with me, or opposing me? :)
[06:43] <Skwid_> anyways
[06:43] <wfarr> BHSPitMonkey: agreeing
[06:43] <BHSPitMonkey> k :)
[06:43] <Skwid_> i'm heading for bed
[06:43] <BHSPitMonkey> gnight
[06:43] <Skwid_> good luck with the digg crowd :)
[06:43] <Misosaki> Laters Skwid
[06:43] <BHSPitMonkey> heh
[06:43] <wfarr> the whole "defaults suck... BUT YOU CAN CHANGE THEM!" argument seems to entirely miss the point
[06:43] <Misosaki> lols Thx?
[06:44] <BHSPitMonkey> wfarr, agreed;  I want my ubuntu to be beautiful when I show it to others :(
[06:44] <BHSPitMonkey> and out of the box, at that
[06:44] <wfarr> in fact, when I configure people's pc's with ubuntu
[06:44] <wfarr> I end up changing the GTK+ and wallpaper
[06:44] <wfarr> before they even see the defaults
[06:44] <wfarr> because I've seen the reaction before
[06:44] <BHSPitMonkey> it's almost like shuttleworth should buy off apple's art dept. :/
[06:45] <wfarr> BHSPitMonkey: except then people would enjoy lookng at the default art :p
[06:45] <BHSPitMonkey> heh
[06:45] <wfarr> anyway, I should've been in bed long, long ago
[06:45] <BHSPitMonkey> live on the edge for once
[06:45] <wfarr> BHSPitMonkey: school tomorrow
[06:46] <wfarr> and I've already stayed up 2 hours too late
[06:46] <BHSPitMonkey> me too, but do I complain? :)
[06:46] <BHSPitMonkey> night
[06:46] <wfarr> night
[08:58] <lassegs> ho is the default installation aimed at and what exactly are you trying to communicate through its execution.
[09:01] <lassegs> For example, when you contribute in code, you choose a project that might use a certain library over another etc... Art and design is a little different.  Maybe you don't agree
[09:01] <lassegs>                 with the direction, or you really like someone's approach.
[09:12] <lassegs> wow sorry. this irc client is a pain in the ass
[09:13] <lassegs> well, good morning everybody
[09:17] <nothlit> heyas
[09:41] <damianvila> Good morning (to those in Europe)
[09:42] <Ludwik> Good morning (10am in Poland)
[09:50] <lassegs> yeha good mornin.
[09:51] <lassegs> kwwii: so im drawing an outline for this IRC meeting we discussed last night
[09:54] <lassegs> sorry, im slow here but i have customers calling me. troublesome :P
[10:20] <damianvila> A quick poll to those awake: what's your screen resolution? (just curious)
[10:21] <lassegs> 4  1680x1050
[10:21] <lassegs> lots of screen realestate :9
[10:22] <damianvila> Same here :-)
[10:22] <damianvila> I did that same question at my blog, and was surprised to see that SXGA was tied to WSXGA
[10:23] <damianvila> Looks like a lot of people are switching to widescreen now
[10:25] <damianvila> If you're interested you can see the results here (is still an open poll): http://electriblog.com/?page_id=89
[10:26] <lassegs> damianvila: actually i think that is wierd, because i like pivot feature a lot. since i read lots of documents i need more space vertically than horizontally. the same thing with web pages.
[10:27] <lassegs> damianvila: but for film, its good.
[10:28] <damianvila> I remember an old Radius monitor with the pivot feature, many years ago...
[10:29] <damianvila> Truth is most apps use some kinds of palettes that narrow the horizontal space
[10:30] <nysosym> I love widescreen, a lot of extra space for tools like photoshop or gimp :=
[10:32] <damianvila> A square monitor (1:1) would be an interesting thing to see, though...
[10:32] <damianvila> :-)
[10:32] <nysosym> what a horrible thing :D
[10:34] <nysosym> widescreen is more natural for the eyes
[10:38] <damianvila> Oh!, Joseph Connors left a comment at my blog. How nice! :-)
[10:41] <Ludwik> damianvila - I just tried to vote in a poll on your blog and I got "Please choose a valid poll answer" error...
[10:42] <damianvila> Ouch!, I'll see what's wrong with that...
[10:42] <lassegs> Ludwik: the poll doesnt like you. My voting went nicely.
[10:42] <damianvila> Wich one, the one about resolutions?
[10:42] <Ludwik> Yeat, that one.
[10:42] <Ludwik> I tried in both Firefox and Opera.
[10:43] <damianvila> Mmmm, I'll check it. Maybe it's because I translated it to english or something (I just switch the language of the blog from spanish to english)
[10:43] <Ludwik> Oh, the one in a sidebar works!
[10:44] <Ludwik> I tried http://electriblog.com/?page_id=89 and it didn't work, but the same poll in a sidebar works.
[10:45] <damianvila> I've got a vote from Poland there :-)
[10:45] <Ludwik> :)
[10:46] <nysosym> i now one from germany :D
[10:46] <damianvila> I'll see if there's a new vrsion of that plugin
[10:47] <damianvila> Yep, there's a new version. I'll update the plugin, just in case.
[10:49] <nysosym>  wanne have the lion wallpaper without the ubuntu logo, as default gutsy one :)
[10:49] <nysosym> i love this one :D
[10:49] <damianvila> You can get it here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Animals
[10:50] <nysosym> amazing! :)
[10:51] <nysosym> and now default for gutsy :)
[10:51] <nysosym> much betters as the current one
[10:51] <damianvila> I thought "brown-fluid" was the default...
[10:52] <nothlit> it is
[10:52] <damianvila> Ah!, OK
[10:52] <lassegs> damianvila: but your will be included.
[10:52] <damianvila> Yes, nothlit told me that
[10:53] <damianvila> Looks like people takes wallpapers more seriously than the people who makes them :-P
[10:53] <lassegs> i understand them. first impressions _are_ important.
[10:55] <damianvila> But I like what Joseph (and kwwii) made!
[10:55] <lassegs> damianvila: im not disagreeing.
[10:55] <damianvila> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jciv/322205551/in/set-72157594417940191/
[10:55] <damianvila> I also loved what you did Lasee :-)
[10:56] <nothlit> wow, that version is quite stunning
[10:56] <lassegs> damianvila: likewise of course. thanks. they needed more work, and i got stuck on some inkscape error.
[10:57] <nothlit> lassegs: you using svn?
[10:57] <lassegs> nothlit: yeah
[10:58] <Ludwik> I think the default wallpaper isn't bad (thought some other projects from Joseph/kwwii series was better IMO). I think there was so much controversy simply because the Animal series was so outstanding, original and made people say "wow, I really want that!".
[10:58] <lassegs> nothlit: i didnt take troy_s advice about making layers png, so blurred layers wouldnt slow down the program.
[10:59] <lassegs> nothlit: coming from Illustrator, this never was an issue
[10:59] <nothlit> hey someone just added two wallpapers to the wiki
[10:59] <damianvila> really?
[10:59] <nothlit> lassegs: yeah, its unfortunate, with the ui so great
[11:00] <nothlit> i think we'll have to wait for cairo to be usable for inkscape as a rendering engine
[11:00] <lassegs> nothlit: i dont know anything about that
[11:00] <damianvila> Oh!, green. Nice images. :-)
[11:00] <nothlit> my small contribution btw https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/wallpapers/
[11:01] <nothlit> theres also a new one hidden as a deviantart link http://lituuslimacon.deviantart.com/art/human-blobs-64281732
[11:02] <damianvila> nothlit: I didn't comment on your work, but it's great :-)
[11:03] <lassegs> nothlit: yeah its really something, although i would do something where the "hands" connect. looks a little off, i dont know.
[11:04] <damianvila> I'd use less contrast. Make the shapes more subtle...
[11:04] <lassegs> shapes subtle I agree
[11:04] <nothlit> lassegs: yeah, it comes from the metaballs and the tris i think
[11:05] <nothlit> lol, i've been told to scrap the ubuntu logo so next time around i'll probably do something more abstract
[11:06] <damianvila> :-D
[11:06] <damianvila> Try to make it blend with the background
[11:06] <nothlit> lassegs: i think you could really develop springer more
[11:07] <nothlit> lassegs: nothing wrong with using illustrator to do the job if you need to
[11:07] <damianvila> A background image needs to "be there" without attracting your eye a lot.
[11:07] <lassegs> nothlit: I know, but first off i want to make others contribute :)
[11:08] <lassegs> so im working on trying to organize an IRC meeting to get this thing going
[11:08] <lassegs> btw, kwwii you here?
[11:08] <lassegs> all of this happens in real time, starting well before the deadlines
[11:08] <nothlit> speaking of which, i've started work on the wiki page
[11:09] <nothlit> https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/hardy/wikipage.txt
[11:09] <lassegs> god damn irc client
[11:09] <lassegs> pastes things randomly
[11:09] <nothlit> lassegs: use xchat if you don't like irssi
[11:09] <lassegs> i like irssi, but it behaves wierd through this java ssh client.
[11:11] <nysosym> my wallpaper ideas :D
[11:11] <nysosym> http://www.nysosym.de/Wallpaper.html
[11:12] <nothlit> i know putty pastes things with right click, its a little weird, maybe your java client does the same?
[11:12] <nothlit> nysosym: i'd go for more intentional blurring
[11:13] <nothlit> or at least focused abstract macros
[11:13] <nothlit> nysosym: i quite like the colours though :)
[11:14] <nysosym> thx :D
[11:14] <damianvila> I like "Lion Lilly" and "Green Land"
[11:14] <nothlit> damianvila: i happen to have 2 lighter versions actually https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/wallpapers/lightdistribution/paintedlightsansmud2.png https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/wallpapers/lightdistribution/paintedlight.dark.2.balanced.png
[11:14] <lassegs> nysosym: yeah, this is good. real good. green land is great
[11:15] <nysosym> if you wanne have a high res version say anything :D
[11:15] <lassegs> nysosym: pleasae
[11:15] <lassegs> *please
[11:15] <nysosym> i*ll do a package of all wallpaper
[11:15] <nothlit> i got tired of mousing at 1920x1080 though
[11:15] <nothlit> nysosym: do you have the preblurred source images?
[11:16] <nysosym> the most of them are done with abstract forms in photoshop with a very high level of gaussian blur
[11:16] <damianvila> nothlit:those are gret. Would like to see then with some kind of "charcoal" effect or something...
[11:16] <nysosym> only some of them are taken from photos
[11:19] <damianvila> Is this really a Vista wallpaper? http://www.piplos.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/windows-vista-aurora-wallpaper.jpg
[11:19] <nysosym> yes
[11:19] <nothlit> damianvila: charcoal?
[11:19] <nothlit> damianvila: how so
[11:20] <nothlit> i had to get rid of roughness in the painting, it started to look muddy/patchy lol
[11:20] <damianvila> nothlit: like it was hand-made, like charcoal on paper...
[11:20] <nothlit> yes, the installation starts like that too [vista] 
[11:20] <nothlit> its underwater inspired, i've been told
[11:21] <nysosym> my first painting on wacom, what do you think about?
[11:21] <nysosym> http://img166.imageshack.us/my.php?image=monk2it0.png
[11:21] <nothlit> damianvila: i'll try playing with my pastels and charcoal, see what I come up with :)
[11:21] <nothlit> nysosym: a nice start
[11:21] <damianvila> nothlit: do you have the original image of that?
[11:22] <nothlit> nysosym: don't worry so much about the details first, make sure you have your values blocked in
[11:22] <damianvila> I need to start using my Wacom again, specially after seeing what Troy S. can do with it... :-P
[11:23] <nothlit> damianvila: troy is doing vector art lol
[11:24] <nothlit> damianvila: sure, my source images are quite ugly lol
[11:24] <damianvila> nothlit: he made a portrait of his daughter using Inkscape and his Wacom that was stunning...
[11:24] <lassegs> im getting a wacom this wednsday. Looking forward to it :D
[11:25] <damianvila> I used the Wacom a lot when I used Mac, but I'm not using it at all with the PC...
[11:25] <nothlit> damianvila: private message me your email
[11:25] <nysosym> my wireless wacom doesn't work with ubuntu :-/
[11:25] <nysosym> http://www.nysosym.de/Wallpaper.zip
[11:25] <damianvila> nothlit: damianvila at gmail :-) (it's no secret) lol
[11:25] <nothlit> nysosym: also, watch your negative space, you need to have a balance
[11:27] <nysosym> nothlit: yes i know, these picture isn't final yet, especially the trees and the boddom
[11:28] <nysosym> bottom i mean ^^
[11:28] <nysosym> ground
[11:28] <nysosym> you know hat i mean :D
[11:28] <nysosym> *what
[11:29] <nysosym> damn, i hate gimp with osx
[11:30] <nothlit> damianvila: source images sent
[11:31] <nothlit> as you can see, they're quite raw, i got impatient and scribbled over them with gimp and declared it done
[11:32] <damianvila> I'm downloading it
[11:33] <lassegs> nothlit: did you get a chance to read what I sent you?
[11:34] <nothlit> lassegs: oh sorry, it automatically got sorted into my ubuntu art mailing list label, didn't notice
[11:34] <lassegs> nothlit: ok :)
[11:35] <nothlit> lassegs: its a great start :D
[11:36] <nothlit> the major issue is as you pointed out, number of contributions
[11:36] <lassegs> remember that the answers I give to the question is just my notes.
[11:36] <nothlit> its not really kwwi against the world, and theres not much we can do to make it a democratic process without overstepping
[11:36] <damianvila> nothlit: It came like that out of Blender?
[11:36] <lassegs> nothlit: i dont agree.
[11:37] <nothlit> damianvila: yes
[11:37] <nothlit> damianvila: and the monochromatic 4:3 came out of indigo
[11:37] <damianvila> Oh! Can you do one with a white backgound?
[11:37] <nothlit> sure
[11:37] <nothlit> lassegs: what are your ideas?
[11:38] <lassegs> nothlit: kwwii needs  some kind of team around him, that will make the team responsible, they can do the dirty work, but we listen to him ultimatly. he must of course be willing to listen, but as far as i know him, that isnt a problem.
[11:38] <damianvila> I can easily do the lights inside photosop. A White background's got more possibilities :-)
[11:40] <lassegs> nothlit: so its a two way communication, but he gives the orders.
[11:40] <damianvila> lassegs: that  came as a surprise for me. I thought he was handling everything on his own.
[11:40] <lassegs> damianvila: now he is, as i understand it, he values good input
[11:41] <lassegs> damianvila: so we should organize that input for him, and take some load off his shoulders.
[11:42] <damianvila> But he needs to be more strict and clear in his requirements, I think
[11:43] <lassegs> anyways, these are things that we must have kwwii here to get some answers to. Where is he anyways? Maybe he restarted that movie last night, since he got interrupted.
[11:43] <lassegs> gtg to lunch. bbl
[11:44] <damianvila> lassegs: see you
[12:04] <damianvila> Hi Skiessi
[12:04] <Skiessi> hi
[12:16] <lassegs> mmm birthday lunch. Cake at 1200 fits me well :P
[12:18] <damianvila> lassegs: you birthdate or a coworker's?
[12:18] <lassegs> mine
[12:18] <damianvila> Oh!, Happy birthdate!
[12:18] <damianvila> *day
[12:18] <lassegs> my mothers christmas gift for dad. :)
[12:19] <lassegs> 24.09
[12:25] <lassegs> trying to read back here, since the digg article and ubuntuforums thread about the wallpaper, the backlog is incredibly long.
[12:30] <nothlit> what on <earth> is going on in the forums http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3417505&postcount=216
[12:31] <lassegul> hm.
[12:31] <lassegul> all the more reason why we need to get a better procsess.
[12:31] <kwwii> oh man, one little person gets pissed off and goes overboard
[12:32] <lassegul> kwwii: finally.
[12:32] <lassegul> kwwii: good morning
[12:32] <kwwii> moin moin
[12:32] <nothlit> kwwii: wb
[12:33] <damianvila> nothlit: I really don't know...
[12:33] <damianvila> Hi kwwii
[12:33] <kwwii> hi damianvila
[12:34] <lapo> hi
[12:35] <lassegul> lapo: hi man
[12:36] <damianvila> Looks like some kind of snowball effect to me. Hi lapo
[12:36] <kwwii> I will send an email
[12:36] <lassegul> kwwii: just forwarded you an e-mail. mind reading it and tell me what you think (about the form, not my answers to the questions.)
[12:36] <lassegul> should we try to stop it by posting?
[12:37] <lapo> kwwii: I like the new wallpaper
[12:37] <nothlit> damianvila: mailed you a white and pinkened version
[12:37] <damianvila> nothlit: thanks
[12:38] <damianvila> nothlit: I just see a black image (all back)
[12:38] <kwwii> lassegul: sounds pretty good to me
[12:38] <damianvila> Oh!, no. Mi err.
[12:38] <nothlit> damianvila: both of them?
[12:38] <kwwii> lapo: thanks man
[12:38] <lapo> kwwii: there's a lot of talking about it, but that's normal since you can't really please anybody
[12:38] <damianvila> No, no, It's just that I didn't see it was truncated :-P
[12:38] <lapo> bikeshed you know :-)
[12:39] <kwwii> lapo: yeah, I am somewhat used to this kind of response
[12:39] <lapo> I think andreasn knows something about it, right andreasn :-)
[12:39] <lassegul> kwwii: the thing is we should keep it real general, as I draw up, just to get people turned on to this, and share an understanding for what we want to do.
[12:39] <kwwii> lapo: it is a bit too dark, and it is a bit pixelated, that will be fixed
[12:39] <lassegul> kwwii: then specify it later at UDS
[12:39] <lapo> a tad rainy but no so much, I don't think is too dark tho
[12:39] <lapo> grainy
[12:39] <andreasn> lapo: hrm, yeah :)
[12:39] <damianvila> nothlit: It's OK :-) I'll play with it later...
[12:40] <kwwii> lassegul: the one thing that we cannot do is to promise a really democratic system (and I am pretty sure people will scream that it should be fully democratic)
[12:40] <lassegul> kwwii: yeah'll have to keep that very clear
[12:41] <lassegul> kwwii: the meeting will understand it just by telling them that, then we must design the whole framework with that in mind
[12:41] <lapo> democracy cannot really work regarding artwork unluckily
[12:41] <damianvila> kwii: I agree with that. Artwork must be handled by just one person.
[12:41] <kwwii> yepp, I've always said that
[12:41] <damianvila> lapo: exactly
[12:42] <lapo> you can build a community around it but there's the need of one person which choose what goes in and what not
[12:42] <kwwii> the only people who think that artwork is a community, democratic process are people who cannot do artwork :-)
[12:42] <lapo> eheh
[12:42] <andreasn> we actually had a totally democratic when deciding on the guadec logo, and I kind of had problems with it since
[12:43] <damianvila> GTG, be back in an hour or so
[12:43] <lassegul> we were through this yesterday. We wont have a forumpoll, but we need to have a proscess that makes user contributors, not critisizers.
[12:43] <andreasn> mostly it proportions
[12:43] <kwwii> see you
[12:43] <lassegul> as i see it.
[12:43] <lassegul> damianvila: bye
[12:45] <lassegul> kwwii: so how about we set a date an time for this meeting?
[12:47] <kwwii> lassegul: any time between 9 UTC and 21 UTC are fine by me (and any day except thursday)
[12:48] <kwwii> I'm putting an email together now, I'll post it and then you can mention it as well on the forum, ok?
[12:49] <kwwii> erm, rather, you should send your email first and then I will mention it in mine
[12:50] <lassegul> kwwii: ok then i clean out my answers, and send it as it is.
[12:50] <kwwii> sounds good
[12:50] <lassegul> kwwii: is "let one thousand flowers bloom" offensive?
[12:51] <kwwii> I do not think so
[12:51] <lassegul> kwwii: its a Mao quote, the guy killed off some million people.
[12:51] <lassegul> kwwii: but it fits well.
[12:51] <lassegul> :P
[12:51] <kwwii> I just do not want anyone to get it in their head that it will be a democratic choice from the community
[12:51] <kwwii> as I cannot promise that
[12:51] <kwwii> hehe
[12:51] <lassegul> so we go with Mao quotes :D
[12:51] <lassegul> just to set the stand
[12:52] <nothlit> kwwii: i mailed you a wiki article set proposal
[12:54] <kwwii> nothlit: haven't gotten it yet it seems
[12:54] <nothlit> kwwii: nm, its here anyways https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/hardy/wikipage.txt
[12:55] <nothlit> I've started work on a Hardy Wiki page, as an effort to get more
[12:55] <nothlit> people involved. I think that this is the first step, and then we move
[12:55] <nothlit> on to the forums etc, as discussed on irc.
[12:55] <kwwii> nothlit: looks excellent
[12:56] <nothlit> should i commit the pages to the wiki?
[12:56] <kwwii> yes, please do
[12:56] <nothlit> ok, doing that now
[12:57] <kwwii> give me the link and I will include it in my email
[12:58] <kwwii> nothlit: looking back I did receive your email, sorry
[01:00] <nothlit> no probs
[01:00] <nothlit> kwwii: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy
[01:01] <kwwii> excellent, thanks!
[01:04] <nothlit> uh
[01:05] <nothlit> i think someone deleted them all
[01:05] <kwwii> no, it looks like they added their new stuff at the top
[01:06] <nothlit> oh, interesting, the pages dissapeared for half a minute
[01:06] <nothlit> disappeared*
[01:07] <kwwii> freaky, they are there now
[01:13] <kwwii> lassegul: sent that email yet?
[01:18] <lassegul> kwwii: no im making a new one, trying to make it a little better.
[01:19] <kwwii> cool, I just sent my email in which I hint at the one you are writing :-)
[01:19] <lassegul> kwwii: and i had to have a little meeting with my boss.
[01:19] <kwwii> ahhh, that stupid work stuff again :p
[01:25] <kwwii> lapo: you've got mail :-)
[01:26] <lassegul> kwwii: its sent now.
[01:26] <kwwii> lassegul: great, thanks
[01:30] <nothlit> lassegul: no ballbark date set?
[01:30] <nothlit> ballpark*
[01:31] <lassegul> nothlit: for the meeting? no, i thought kwwii should decide.
[01:32] <lassegul> nothlit: anyways, i should really learn something about gmt and utc before i try to set meeting times :S
[01:32] <kwwii> I'll respond with some suggestions
[01:33] <nothlit> lassegul: http://worldtimeserver.com/time_converter.aspx http://worldtimeserver.com/meeting-planner.aspx
[01:34] <lassegul> nothlit: ah thank you. without this I would probably be joining a couple of hours later than everybody else
[01:37] <lassegul> how about 2000 UTC/GMT this wednsday? That should be good for USA, Europe, and Africa?
[01:37] <kwwii> lassegul: erm, it would probably be better next week instead of this week - it would give people more time to plan
[01:38] <kwwii> people will probably complain if we only give them two days time
[01:38] <lassegul> yeah im just a little eager to get this going
[01:38] <lassegul> your right
[01:38] <kwwii> perhaps friday
[01:38] <kwwii> heck, I would even do it on thursday at that time
[01:38] <lassegul> yeah how about friday?
[01:38] <kwwii> sounds good to me
[01:38] <kwwii> if people complain, so be it
[01:39] <kwwii> it is just a suggestion, after all
[01:40] <lassegul> but arent you gonna be on your way home to you family by then
[01:40] <kwwii> hrm, I wonder why my email did not get through to the list
[01:40] <kwwii> well, I work from home so it is not a problem
[01:40] <kwwii> I just tend to pick some time and then turn off my computer until sunday
[01:40] <lassegul> ok
[01:43] <kwwii> freaky, none of my emails are coming through to the list
[01:44] <lapo> kwwii: check the other channel :-)
[01:44] <kwwii> lapo: right, checking
[01:49] <`23meg> hi all
[01:56] <lassegul> hi `23meg. Did you see my mail on the list? I stole some of your suggestions
[01:56] <`23meg> yes, just saw it
[01:57] <`23meg> the message is good, but the title is a bit.. you know..
[01:57] <lassegul> yupp :)
[01:57] <`23meg> :)
[01:58] <lassegul> read back and youll see we discussed it :P
[02:11] <kwwii> if that is the only thing people find to complain about we should be happy
[02:15] <lassegul> could you propose the scheduel kwwii?
[02:15] <lassegul> on the list.
[02:17] <kwwii> yepp, will do
[02:19] <kwwii> done
[02:19] <lassegul> kwwii: we should prepare a little for this, by discussing the issues before the meeting to get a good debate going on the right track.
[02:20] <lassegul> kwwii: but to some extent we already have, so we can probably postpone it to thursday or something
[02:20] <kwwii> after we figure out exactly what time we are having it we can put together a list of topics
[02:21] <kwwii> and post those in advance
[02:21] <kwwii> I have a couple of issues which I would like to add concerning mailling list administration and other stuff
[02:21] <lassegul> good.
[02:22] <kwwii> I think that you will be surprised at how few people will be interested in a  meeting
[02:22] <kwwii> everyone likes to spout off on a forum but actually spending time to figure things out and work in the right direction is something else
[02:22] <lassegul> as long as we get like 5-10 people who can do some work with us i would be satisfied.
[02:23] <kwwii> yepp
[02:23] <lassegul> I already trust nolith damianvila 23meg and maybe troy_s and some others are with us.
[02:24] <kwwii> time will tell
[02:24] <kwwii> speaking of time, lunch time for me
[02:24] <kwwii> be back in while
[02:24] <lassegul> just hope we dont get digged, and it'll be stand up comedy amateur night here, just like the digg.com comments
[02:27] <`23meg> I can't make it on Friday and Saturday nights this week
[02:30] <lassegul> how about thursday then? 4 days should be enough for people to prepare :S
[02:37] <lassegul> kwwii: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3417876&postcount=223  sorry about this, that didnt look to good, when its cut out of its content :P
[02:43] <`23meg> Thursday is much better
[02:43] <`23meg> I have concerts on both friday and saturday :)
[02:58] <`23meg> just posted to the list
[03:12] <Skiessi> :O 2 hours of discussion
[03:37] <kwwii> I just posted to the forum - now I feel dirty :p
[03:42] <lassegul> hmm. i hope that once we get a date on that meeting, maybe that'll quite things down and get people to accept the facts and start looking forward.
[03:43] <lassegul> kwwii: i think you should just cut through with a time and a date in a couple of hours.
[03:43] <kwwii> lassegul: yeah, if nobody responds I will do so
[03:44] <kwwii> god forbid someone says that I didn't tell them about it or give them enough time to respond
[03:48] <lassegul> hehe. maybe you even was trained by Redmond on how not to give community time and/or date
[05:00] <lassegul> ok. Ill be off for family birthdaydinner for a little while. See you guys later.
[05:19] <kwwii> see you
[05:38] <damianvila> kwwii: how big do you need it?
[05:39] <kwwii> damianvila: sorry for that email, I somehow forgot about the versions on the wiki :p
[05:39] <kwwii> dumb of me
[05:39] <damianvila> :-)
[05:39] <kwwii> I am going to use the big version without the logo, ok?
[05:40] <damianvila> OK :-)
[05:40] <kwwii> cool
[05:41] <damianvila> Uh!, I think the wiki ones are "signed"...
[05:42] <damianvila> If it's going to be included with the distro you need one without a sign.
[05:42] <damianvila> I'll send it to you by mail, if you don't mind
[05:43] <damianvila> Or maybe you want to edit the "signature" yourself (lower-right corner)?
[05:47] <kwwii> yeah, one without a sig would be good
[05:47] <kwwii> hehe, no I would never put my name on your work!
[05:48] <damianvila> Well, I was not counting with it being "official" :-P
[05:51] <kwwii> ;-)
[05:51] <kwwii> I should have said something to you earlier about that - I kinda knew I would do that for a long time
[05:53] <damianvila> No problem :-)
[05:53] <kwwii> I am taking off for a while...send me that pic and I will see to it that it is included
[05:55] <damianvila> It's on its way right now :-)
[05:56] <kwwii> excellent
[05:57] <damianvila> I set the compression from 100% to 60%.
[05:58] <damianvila> Around 380 KB and 480 KB for the widescreen
[07:12] <kwwii> we should probably make a package with all the animal pics (and just them)
[08:54] <nothlit> The forum thread is only getting more ridiculous. Comments in there are completely disrespectful and unacceptable. Should such a flame thread be shut down? We can come up with a wiki page addressing the choice, and other points informing people what really goes on...?
[08:58] <nothlit> kwwii: that sounds like a good idea, theres definitely enough demand for them
[09:05] <lassegul> hello everybody
[09:10] <lassegul> so kwwii nobody spoke up about the schedueled time. cut through and set a time.
[09:12] <nothlit> lassegul: is it set? someone spoke about wanting to have it next week
[09:13] <lassegul> nothlit: yeah, but we're not going to have a discussion about that. kwwii just sets a date that noone has spoken against, and those who have other things crashing with it will have to prioritize
[09:13] <lassegul> nothlit: doesnt taht sound fair?
[09:14] <lassegul> i think that would be best as well
[09:20] <kwwii> yeah, i think that thursday would be best...I'll send an email tomorrow morning if nobody says anything else
[09:21] <kwwii> as long as the discussion is kept on the forum there is little worry as nobody of any importance reads the forum
[09:33] <nothlit> what about giving people easy access to the correct information? or will that fuel the fire, or not worth doing?
[09:36] <lassegul> I was just thinking about it. Maybe we should let things cool down for like 24 hours before we start shouting about it.
[09:39] <lassegul> nothlit: what do you think?
[09:41] <nothlit> lassegul: sure, waiting is fine, i don't know about shouting, even metaphorically
[09:41] <lassegul> sorry, im bad with translating norwegian expressions to english :P
[09:41] <lassegul> nothlit: like making a forum post for it.
[09:46] <nothlit> lassegul: sure, if it was locked, otherwise, people will just continue to pursue their agendas-- but i wouldn't take any action without asking kwwii
[09:46] <lassegul> kwwii: you were going to make an agenda for the meeting, right? the questions in my listmail are far to vague.
[09:47] <kwwii> lassegul: yes, I am going to make an agenda
[09:47] <lassegul> nothlit: if it was locked?
[09:48] <lassegul> nothlit: oh you mean time date and agenda?
[09:52] <nothlit> lassegul: you can lock threads so that no more posts can be made to them, i mean agenda, as in, for their own use or purpose
[09:53] <lassegul> nothlit: yeah, that might be an idea.
[10:07] <kwwii> I am off for evening, have fun
[10:10] <lassegul> likewise
[11:59] <lassegul> whats going on with the gutsy update? suddnely new default is out and chocolate is in? Or am i wrong?
[12:10] <nothlit> prolly just until kwwii submits the fixed one
[12:14] <kwwii> lassegul: hrm? when did you get this update? I submited a package this evening with a different version of the one that is so controversial and also included the elephant pic
[12:14] <lassegul> uhm. like 20 minuits ago or something
[12:15] <kwwii> no that is not chocolate
[12:15] <kwwii> unless someone hijacked my package
[12:15] <lassegul> hmm. look here,
[12:15] <lassegul> http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=555477&page=27
[12:15] <lassegul> halfway donw
[12:15] <lassegul> *down
[12:16] <nothlit> they also quoted you out of context
[12:16] <kwwii> chocolate is not in again, I know that much
[12:17] <lassegul> nothlit: me who what now?
[12:17] <kwwii> perhaps I did something wrong with the package or such so that the default is no longer set
[12:18] <lassegul> kwwii: ok, i just checked the thread, im not actually running gutsy on my desktop computer
[12:18] <kwwii> looking at the package I submitted everything seems to be in order
[12:18] <kwwii> I am guessing that that info is incorrect
[12:18] <lassegul> anyone on gutsy here?
[12:19] <lassegul> man that would have been a stupid mistake kwwii lol.
[12:20] <nothlit> lassegul: oh nm, alevin took out the quote
[12:21] <lassegul> nothlit: intriguing.
[12:23] <lassegul> ok. Im off to bed now. We'll talk in the morning.
[12:23] <lassegul> good night
[12:25] <kwwii> this misosaki guy hit the nail right on the head
[12:25] <kwwii> erm, or girl, who knows
[12:27] <kwwii> after a day like this, I think a nice bloody mary is the perfect way to end it
[12:27] <kwwii> night all