[12:35] <Misosaki> Hi, might be easier to communicate this way rather than through the mailing list, since there's a lively discussion going
[12:36] <kwwii> hi Misosaki
[12:36] <kwwii> excellent email
[12:36] <Misosaki> Thanks, and thanks for responding so quickly
[12:37] <kwwii> the biggest problem seems to be that we want the community to contribute but that the decision making process is not in the community's hands
[12:37] <kwwii> I do admit that the way I did things turned out very poorly
[12:37] <Misosaki> Yeah ... the second problem being a lot of people didn't know that
[12:37] <kwwii> although I must say it was better than when we tried to do it with edgy
[12:37] <kwwii> well, very few people were interested up until the point that I put the wallpaper in
[12:37] <Misosaki> Well, that's why we can do better with the next release :)
[12:38] <kwwii> and then everyone is pissed that I did it that way
[12:38] <kwwii> I did send an email stating that this wallpaper would be defualt
[12:38] <Misosaki> Yeah, it's just that people were saying they didn't know when/how/who decided that
[12:38] <kwwii> but again, that is no excuse - we need to make things better in the future
[12:39] <kwwii> I was hesitant to say "Mark and others have the say on things" as he is my boss
[12:39] <Misosaki> That's why the Forum Ambassadors might be a good idea ... they field the bad PR lols
[12:39] <kwwii> yes, very good idea
[12:39] <kwwii> I hope that you can take part in the meeting
[12:40] <kwwii> it will probably happen on Thursday, although that might change depending on several things
[12:40] <kwwii> I will send an email to the list stating the time once we have consensus or nobody else responds
[12:40] <Misosaki> Thanks ... will try to be there ... I'm glad that you and the others have arranged the meeting, to sit down and talk it out
[12:40] <Misosaki> *glad => thanks lols
[12:40] <nothlit> kwwii: how likely is it that sabdfl will choose a work other than yours for the default?
[12:41] <kwwii> nothlit: it is not my work - not sure why everyone thinks that it is
[12:41] <nothlit> Misosaki: oh, thanks for coming in
[12:41] <nothlit> kwwii: your edit*
[12:41] <kwwii> I have said that several times
[12:41] <nothlit> sorry, i know jospeph took the source images, its just how i refer to it
[12:41] <Misosaki> Np, nothlit -- good points you've got there, figured I'd come in to make talking easier
[12:41] <kwwii> nothlit: the only reason that I am using a pic that I tweaked is that the one that joseph submitted is 1024x768
[12:42] <nothlit> kwwii: how likely is it that a non-canonical invited/sponsored piece of artwork becomes the default wallpaper*?
[12:42] <kwwii> nothlit: if Mark and others like it, it is very likely
[12:42] <Misosaki> Well, maybe if it's made clearer what sabdfl wants lols?
[12:42] <nothlit> because if its probable, i'll put in those monochromatic tips etc
[12:42] <kwwii> the problem with that is that he wants pretty much exactly what we had in the pics i posted at top
[12:43] <kwwii> but that is only for gutsy
[12:43] <nothlit> Misosaki: i didn't at first because otherwise it just restricts everybody to producing the same abstract shapes and swishes
[12:43] <kwwii> we will change things around for hardy
[12:43] <kwwii> he sent me an email today saying that he wants to go black and orange for hardy
[12:43] <Misosaki> It's often hard to work to very specific rules, since some argue that it stifles creativity, but it's also hard to go on little, because then it takes longer trying to feel out what is being asked
[12:43] <kwwii> I think that it is very hard to recreate a work of art but yet somehow make it different
[12:44] <nothlit> kwwii: forward me any of the guidelines and i'll transcribe them to the wiki
[12:44] <kwwii> nothlit: lol, until now i was told to make it black and orange like the stuff I did for ubuntu mobile
[12:44] <kwwii> nothing more, nothing less
[12:44] <Misosaki> nothlit: Well, heard about the monochromatism from troy, but it wasn't stated in the wiki for the reasons kwwii just clarified
[12:44] <Misosaki> But it should
[12:44] <nothlit> Misosaki: afaik, what sabdfl wants is something boring, that won't offend anybody
[12:45] <kwwii> he is not very good at communicating what he wants but yet he knows exactly what he wants
[12:45] <Misosaki> It'd make things easier, even if it sounds draconian
[12:45] <nothlit> and that isn't bright or high in contrast
[12:45] <nothlit> and isn't definite in representation of anything
[12:45] <nothlit> placing those guidelines down
[12:45] <kwwii> that pretty much sums it up
[12:45] <nothlit> would just lead to the same criticisms laid on kwwii and joesph's collaboration on everybody's work
[12:45] <Misosaki> At the end, it won't be so bad ... but the guidelines, not mere suggestions, have to be there
[12:45] <kwwii> I was trying to allow enough room to play so that people could still be creative
[12:45] <kwwii> Misosaki: yes, you are right
[12:46] <kwwii> for feisty it was totally closed and nobody complained even though in my eyes the pic I made was crap
[12:46] <Misosaki> lols Well, maybe people were too creative
[12:47] <kwwii> yeah
[12:47] <Misosaki> Some people though the orange palette was a "suggestion" ... so there were some greys, blues and other colours
[12:47] <Misosaki> *orange -> the swatch
[12:47] <kwwii> yeah, apparently so
[12:48] <Misosaki> Not that there's anything wrong with other colours ... but if specific colours are required, then it should be stated as a req, not a suggestion
[12:48] <nothlit> it is a suggestion
[12:48] <nothlit> that is a derived guessing of colours basically
[12:48] <nothlit> and it wouldn't make sense to tonally match dapper exactly anyways
[12:49] <kwwii> I should have been much clearer in the exact points of what had to be - that much is clear to me now
[12:49] <Misosaki> kwwii: Yeah, it's hard to be creative with essentially "the same thing", but it might be done
[12:49] <kwwii> I doubt we would have had many submissions, but it would have at least avoided this situation
[12:50] <nothlit> so do we encourage people to follow the guidelines of utter dullness for a chance to be selected or ask them to be creative?
[12:50] <kwwii> the thing that upsets me the most is that most of the people on the forum did nothing in this whole process, most are not even on the mailing list or read the wiki but yet now, after the fact they want to complain
[12:50] <Misosaki> Well, seeing as "creativity" isn't encouraged lol
[12:50] <damianvila> Misosaki: I was reading your mail. Very clever and straight to the point. Thanks for taking the time to say it clear.
[12:51] <Misosaki> Not at all, just throwing a few suggestions out there for what they're worth ... a lot of it came from the discussion with troy yesterday
[12:51] <Misosaki> Agreed with him on a number of things ... so it was a matter of trying to phrase them to make sense and offend as few people as possible in the process
[12:52] <kwwii> troy would be a lot more help if we would stop being so negative about everything :p
[12:52] <damianvila> And kwwii: I've always thought you should be stricter with the thing... :-) (I'd prefer that)
[12:52] <kwwii> damianvila: i promise that I will be a bastard in the future :D
[12:52] <Misosaki> nothlit: Thanks for the releaseschedule link -- something like that should be smack in the middle of the wiki
[12:52] <Misosaki> Hi mma
[12:53] <nothlit> Misosaki: yeah, but theres nothing wrong with having a whole bunch of fantastic wallpapers for an alternate selection or in the community package
[12:53] <damianvila> Don't fear of putting limits, if that takes you to where you need to go...
[12:53] <kwwii> one thing to know about the release schedule is that I made that up and did so purposely with extra time for things like this
[12:53] <kwwii> the artwork part of the schedule, I mean
[12:53] <nothlit> I would <much> prefer that to a whole pack of the same thing and stifling the ubuntu artwork community
[12:53] <damianvila> Any as to why the wallpaper reverted?
[12:54] <damianvila> *Any clue
[12:54] <nothlit> I'll give them a choice I suppose, a sabdfl wants page
[12:54] <kwwii> it was not reverted
[12:54] <kwwii> I have no idea why people think that is was
[12:54] <nothlit> kwwii: so Hardy is Halloween colours?
[12:54] <Misosaki> nothlit: Nothing wrong at all ... choice is cool. But people are particularly anxious about the default for various obvious reasons
[12:54] <kwwii> nothlit: happy halloween!
[12:54] <damianvila> kwwii: so to say (I'm a designer :-) lol)
[12:54] <kwwii> ;-)
[12:55] <damianvila> What happened, a problem with Launchpad?
[12:55] <kwwii> damianvila: here is a secret...at first I was scared that your stuff was pics stolen from somewhere  - they seemed to be too good to be real :p
[12:55] <Misosaki> Just out of curiosity, kwwii, did sabdfl explain why he chose the design?
[12:55] <damianvila> :-P
[12:55] <Misosaki> Other than what we already know
[12:55] <kwwii> Misosaki: nope, he just said that that was his favorite (and two other people said the same)
[12:56] <kwwii> Misosaki: the second favorite was fire and water from my
[12:56] <kwwii> myself
[12:56] <kwwii> mark and others thought that the animal stuff was amazing but not suitable for default as it is too realistic
[12:56] <Misosaki> Any chance we could get a statement from him or the two other people as to why and what he wants to see next?
[12:57] <kwwii> I doubt that he wants to be quoted on any of this (and him being my boss I am not going to press the issue)
[12:57] <kwwii> I think that he likes having me as a scape goat :p
[12:57] <Misosaki> No, not quoted necessarily ... just to give the designers more clues to work with
[12:57] <kwwii> again, he is not an artist and not very good at communicating his ideas
[12:58] <kwwii> for the next cycle I will post some info that he sent me when I made the mobile designs and a decent palette
[12:58] <kwwii> lol, that should make people laugh
[12:58] <Misosaki> Did he send you any sites or sample themes? Other than the two wallpapers in the wiki
[12:58] <kwwii> he got his secretary to send me a copy of a pic from an ad in a magazine...she said "this is what mark wants"
[12:59] <Misosaki> Can we please see it?
[12:59] <kwwii> this is the stuff for the mobile theme, for the next cycle but sure, let me find it
[12:59] <damianvila> That would be funny
[12:59] <kwwii> for gutsy he just said I want what we had in warty and breezy
[12:59] <Misosaki> Someone will have to find a way to express that in written form
[01:00] <kwwii> imagine getting a letter in the mail (the real mail) with a copy of a magazine article
[01:00] <damianvila> lol
[01:00] <Misosaki> kwwii: And thanks
[01:00] <Misosaki> lol
[01:01] <damianvila> sabdfl is not the kind of boss (or client) I like... :-P
[01:02] <nothlit> kwwii: is this ok? This is a set of guidelines if you wish to be eligible as the default selection. However, I would encourage you to be more creative with your decisions and leave the defaults with those tasked with the job.
[01:04] <kwwii> here is the pic I was sent: http://sinecera.de/img-6251007-0001.pdf
[01:04] <kwwii> Misosaki: you do not know how often i wonder the same thing
[01:04] <Misosaki> lol
[01:05] <kwwii> this job is somewhat new to me and I seem to be doing it all alone without any real guidelines
[01:05] <kwwii> other than "do it right"
[01:05] <Misosaki> lol
[01:05] <kwwii> and in addition I also do kubuntu, ubuntu mobile, etc
[01:05] <nothlit> Misosaki: sabdfl comes in as 'sabdfl'
[01:05] <Misosaki> At least it isn't "it has to just work"
[01:05] <kwwii> funny, I do kubuntu all alone and nobody complains
[01:06] <Misosaki> Maybe because this version is the "flagship" version so to speak?
[01:06] <nothlit> i actually quite liked edgy kubuntu
[01:06] <kwwii> Misosaki: yepp, that is how I see it
[01:07] <nothlit> kubuntu is an addition just like xubuntu
[01:07] <kwwii> and this being so important puts more stress on me
[01:07] <nothlit> not the representative product
[01:07] <Misosaki> Interesting
[01:07] <Misosaki> @the ad
[01:07] <kwwii> yet I have almost nobody to really discuss things with
[01:07] <_MMA_> Hi Guys. Mind if I go a little off topic?
[01:07] <Misosaki> Sure, mma
[01:08] <_MMA_> Im Cory. Lead on the Ubuntu Studio project.
[01:08] <_MMA_> I want to get the word about Ubuntu Studio-Hardy's art being opened to the community. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming I'll be posting to the art ML soon. Help to further clarify the current ideas on the WIKI are welcome. I will also try to hang in here more over the Hardy development cycle ans all are welcome in #ubuntustudio.
[01:08] <nothlit> _MMA_: btw wedderburns concept on deviantart is nice, besides the login execution
[01:08] <_MMA_> Hi nothlit. ;)
[01:08] <kwwii> Misosaki: here is a pic which shows what i did on the mobile stuff in reaction to that pic. http://sinecera.de/apps_0.3.png
[01:08] <nothlit> _MMA_: heyas lol
[01:09] <Misosaki> And obviously he liked the mobile work?
[01:09] <kwwii> _MMA_: I can tell you right now that you should define exactly what you want in advance, trust me on this one
[01:09] <kwwii> Misosaki: yepp, that turned out very well
[01:09] <nothlit> kwwii: can i attach them as examples?
[01:09] <Misosaki> kwwii: Good, congrats ... at least there's a bit more to work with
[01:10] <kwwii> nothlit: wait a bit until we have a decent plan for everything...putting stuff out now would only confuse people
[01:10] <_MMA_> kwwii: Yeah. Ive watched the drama unfold. ;)
[01:11] <kwwii> nothlit: we can start posting stuff after the meeting
[01:11] <damianvila> Looks like sabdfl likes something similar to some Sony/ericsson image
[01:11] <kwwii> _MMA_: needless to say, we are slowly figuring out how to improve the process...there is  a meeting in the makings sometime soon, perhaps you would like to join in?
[01:12] <_MMA_> nothlit: Well Andrew's stuff we werent too happy with so we did this: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-users/2007-September/000559.html Then this is the final word and explanation for Gutsys art. https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-studio-users/2007-September/000588.html
[01:12] <Misosaki> So far then: black/orange, generic yet vaguely meaningful by being stylish?
[01:13] <_MMA_> kwwii: Sure. Ill make some reminders to habg in here more so Im more aware. I am also on the art ML.
[01:13] <_MMA_> s/hanb/hang
[01:13] <Misosaki> Hi dingle
[01:13] <the_dingle> Hi Misosaki
[01:14] <Misosaki> _MMA_: Are you looking for more artwork or...?
[01:14] <damianvila> _MMA_: I like your idea. I did something in that line (punkish) some years ago for an indie record... :-)
[01:14] <_MMA_> Misosaki: Not for Gutsy no.
[01:14] <kwwii> _MMA_: the talk about the meeting is on the ML, check it out and let me know if you have a preference with the time
[01:14] <Misosaki> For Hardy?
[01:15] <_MMA_> Misosaki: Yes.
[01:15] <kwwii> it seems like either thursday 20:00UTC or next week
[01:15] <nothlit> _MMA_: you should post your invite to the mailing list
[01:15] <Misosaki> _MMA_: Ah, okay.
[01:15] <_MMA_> damianvila: Thats my background mostly. Indie rock/punk/metal. I did like sound for years.
[01:16] <_MMA_> gah
[01:16] <_MMA_> s/like/live
[01:16] <_MMA_> nothlit: I will me. Im writing it up tonight.
[01:16] <the_dingle> kwii: Has the gutsy-artwork 0.14 package been fixed?
[01:16] <the_dingle> currently, nothing gets installed as the source package contains ,jpgs, and the package only installs .pngs.
[01:16] <kwwii> _MMA_: the lights stuff is nice - good pic
[01:16] <kwwii> pick
[01:17] <kwwii> the_dingle: until now i am not sure what the problem is
[01:17] <_MMA_> kwwii: Thanx. For something rushed. :)
[01:17] <kwwii> I gave it to a fellow canonican for review, I assumed it would work
[01:17] <kwwii> I might as well just post the pic I touched up...one second
[01:17] <the_dingle> I took a look at the source package, and that seems to be the problem
[01:17] <the_dingle> I'll give it a test and see
[01:18] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/warty-final-ubuntu.jpg
[01:18] <kwwii> the_dingle: that is what happens when you expect an artist to do everything
[01:19] <kwwii> i should know how to a) do artwork, b) work with people, c) lead a community and d) do my own packaging
[01:19] <kwwii> oh, and e) communicate this all per irc, email, wiki and forum
[01:20] <Misosaki> lols
[01:21] <Misosaki> Not artist, artistic director ... promotion ;)
[01:21] <the_dingle> I'm not blaming you, kwii, I just know how to fix this and wanted to help
[01:22] <Misosaki> Although doubling as PR manager isn't very fun
[01:23] <kwwii> lol, no doubt
[01:23] <the_dingle> The package worked: in setup.py, change ".png" on line 18 to ".jpg"
[01:23] <kwwii> and all of that for several projects
[01:23] <kwwii> the_dingle: yeah, the pic changed from png to jpg
[01:24] <kwwii> i did change that
[01:24] <kwwii> erm, ouch....I changed that in the xml file not in the py file
[01:24] <kwwii> shit
[01:24] <kwwii> well, now we know why it did not work!
[01:24] <the_dingle> Just missed a reference, is all
[01:25] <kwwii> yeah
[01:25] <_MMA_> lol. I just missed the same thing in my last update. :)
[01:25] <kwwii> I'll fix it tomorrow when people are awake again
[01:25] <the_dingle> Thanks, kwii
[01:25] <the_dingle> later
[01:25] <kwwii> the_dingle: dude, thanks to you
[01:26] <kwwii> I thought that I gave the package up for review so that someone could actually check it
[01:27] <Misosaki> Hi swj
[01:27] <swj> hi
[01:27] <kwwii> if it were up to me this would be the new wallpaper: http://sinecera.de/rainbow.jpg
[01:27] <kwwii> it has every color except brown :p
[01:28] <swj> just wondering, after the update today, I no longer have a default gusty wallpaper...I only the lion-clear which I added myself...is this correct?
[01:28] <swj> i.e., gusty update
[01:28] <kwwii> swj: I borked a python file
[01:28] <kwwii> my fault
[01:28] <Misosaki> kwwii: Did he say anything else about theme set or the icons?
[01:28] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/warty-final-ubuntu.jpg is the updated file
[01:28] <kwwii> Misosaki: nope, I plan to change pretty much everything though
[01:29] <kwwii> top down
[01:29] <nothlit> Misosaki: the icons won't change from the Human set he commisioned iconfactory for, afaik
[01:29] <kwwii> nothlit: they will change, if I can help it
[01:29] <nothlit> kwwii: who wrote the ubuntulooks engine?
[01:29] <swj> Kwwii oohh I see..thanks for answering (I am sure for 20K time) ;)
[01:29] <swj> sorry
[01:29] <kwwii> a couple of (very young) kids he paid to show up at a meeting
[01:29] <kwwii> lol
[01:30] <swj> Kwwii are the head of ubuntu art?
[01:30] <swj> are you
[01:30] <kwwii> swj: sure, I am getting rich doing this - I'll probably retire after hardy :p
[01:31] <kwwii> swj: well, I am the only paid employee (working on ubuntu, kubuntu, ubuntu mobile and some edubuntu)
[01:32] <damianvila> kwwii: why is that image so posterized? (warty-final-ubuntu.jpg)
[01:32] <kwwii> if everyone knew what I earned after taxes they would stop giving me so much shit :D
[01:32] <Misosaki> kwwii: Any drafts for the icons or other components other than the wallpaper yet for Hardy?
[01:32] <swj> I remember mark shuttleworth writing something a long time ago (not sure where it is now) that the current color scheme is subject to change...I wonder if this is still true?
[01:32] <nothlit> Misosaki: btw, i have tried to get a community effort going before, I included aim, themes, keywords, feel, mock palletes and concept art-- it fell flat on its bum
[01:32] <kwwii> damianvila: the original is like that, trying to figure out how to fix it actually
[01:33] <damianvila> kwwii: oh!
[01:33] <kwwii> Misosaki: nope, but we will need to make that to convince you know who
[01:33] <kwwii> damianvila: it is like 3000 pixels wide so it should not be a real problem
[01:33] <Misosaki> nothlit: Bummer. How come? No interest?
[01:33] <kwwii> I was forced to reduce the file size to 150KB today
[01:33] <nothlit> Misosaki: oh and polling of ubuntu denizens
[01:34] <kwwii> due to CD limits
[01:34] <nothlit> Misosaki: probably, and it was most likely a little too ambitious in scope, people weren't ready for conceptually based art
[01:34] <Misosaki> kwwii: Ah, okay. But something along the lines of mobile?
[01:34] <kwwii> Misosaki: yepp
[01:35] <_MMA_> nothlit: That's my worry as well. :(
[01:35] <damianvila> kwwii: that must be it. It has artifact too due to heavy compression... :-P
[01:35] <swj> Oh I found it https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth?highlight=%28mark%29%7C%28shuttleworth%29   --Will brown always be the default desktop colour?--
[01:35] <nothlit> Misosaki: https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/gutsy/ https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/CommunityTheme/Collaboration+Progress?highlight=%28CommunityTheme%29 https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/CommunityTheme --the keywords were chosen from a selection, by vote on launchpad
[01:35] <kwwii> Misosaki: the thing is that all of my mockups for mobile use the oxygen icons set (which I started for kde4)
[01:35] <Misosaki> nothlit: Pity, because the concepts would've brought something possibly outstanding to the efforts
[01:36] <kwwii> Misosaki: so I guess that using that icon set is not possible for ubuntu as the gnome fans would kill me
[01:36] <Misosaki> lol
[01:36] <kwwii> guess I didn't mention that I am also kde art maintainter
[01:36] <kwwii> s/maintainter/maintainer
[01:36] <Misosaki> So you'll need a fresh set of everything?
[01:37] <nothlit> kwwii: i would ^
[01:37] <kwwii> Misosaki: my idea was to tweak certain parts of the tango set
[01:37] <swj> I wonder what the current human icons would look like more tan or light brown in color...
[01:38] <nothlit> swj: feel free to tweak them, they're svg
[01:38] <kwwii> nothlit: I think that the biggest problem with those pics you made is that it changes the logo which is a branding no-no
[01:38] <Misosaki> kwwii: Tango would probably work okay with black/orange
[01:38] <nothlit> kwwii: oh lol, no worries, that was just me being bored anyways
[01:38] <kwwii> Misosaki: yeah, I thought the same thing...in order to convince those in charge I will need a decent mockup
[01:39] <kwwii> so that will be part of the meeting as well
[01:39] <nothlit> kwwii: i'll do something more normal next time
[01:39] <Misosaki> lol
[01:39] <nothlit> kwwii: although i had hoped to do a flat piece of worked clay with the ubuntu logo drawn out with fingers
[01:40] <swj> nothlit I really dont anything about art, so I leave it to the experts...
[01:40] <nothlit> swj: tweaking colour palettes is quite easy, you should try it
[01:40] <kwwii> nothlit: see...exactly that is why I do not want to tell people exactly what to do in advance...I like the idea you mention but I cannot say that after you put a lot of work into it that it will be accepted
[01:40] <swj> nothlit do you know of a good tutorial that would show me?
[01:40] <nothlit> swj: install inkscape from the repos, and the icons are located in /usr/share/icons/Human/scalable
[01:40] <nothlit> swj: lemme see
[01:40] <kwwii> and if you put a lot of work into it I have to tell you "nope, no way" you will hate me
[01:41] <nothlit> swj: inkscape has built in tutorials as well
[01:41] <swj> I'll check it out
[01:41] <swj> thanks
[01:41] <kwwii> the problem with human is that not all of the icons are available as svg
[01:41] <kwwii> and it does not fit with tango
[01:41] <nothlit> kwwii: yeah, thats why i've only done experiments
[01:41] <kwwii> in the meantime I would rather use tango as a base
[01:41] <Misosaki> nothlit: Got quite a bit of work in those links -- but since we've started clarifying what is being sought, we might not need to do as much brainstorming :)
[01:42] <kwwii> (did I mention that I was also one of the people who started that too)
[01:42] <kwwii> but I had my fingers in too many pots
[01:43] <nothlit> swj: http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Theme_Guidelines theres a video there of someone creating a tango icon in inkscape
[01:43] <swj> I really liked the warty brown (a lot!) so I am thinking meta changed back to warty, light brown human icons, and simple branded plain no too dark, not too light brown wallpaper...to me that would look like ubuntu
[01:44] <kwwii> almost 2am here...time for sleep...see you all soon I hope
[01:44] <_MMA_> Night sir.
[01:44] <Misosaki> Laters kwwii
[01:44] <kwwii> Misosaki: thanks again for the excellent post - I hope that we can realize your ideas
[01:44] <nothlit> ttyl
[01:45] <kwwii> ttyl?
[01:45] <Misosaki> kwwii: Thanks for taking the time to chat
[01:45] <kwwii> ta-ta you later?
[01:45] <swj> thats a nice brown too "human gtk" http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/ubuntu-chocolate?content=66733
[01:45] <kwwii> Misosaki: any time, I am almost always on irc
[01:46] <Misosaki> kwwii: Sure thing then, we probably won't see the last of each other then lol
[01:46] <swj> nothlit thanks
[01:46] <nothlit> kwwii: talk to you later
[01:46] <kwwii> nothlit: ahhh, nigi (now I get it)
[01:46] <kwwii> :p
[01:46] <nothlit> LOL
[01:46] <kwwii> I am too old for the internet
[01:47] <Misosaki> lols
[01:47] <Misosaki> HAGNS
[01:47] <Misosaki> lol
[01:49] <swj> So I guess I missed it...did kwwii say what the final wallpaper would be?
[01:50] <nothlit> brownfluid
[01:50] <nothlit> but lightened and noisefree, with elephant as secondary
[01:50] <nothlit> the smaller resolution animal wallpapers are nicer imo though
[01:51] <kwwii> Misosaki: Have A Good Nights Sleep 
[01:51] <kwwii> ?
[01:51] <swj> well I guess that want be so bad...that def addresses the problems I had with it
[01:51] <Misosaki> What was that about being too old? ;)
[01:51] <kwwii> :-)
[01:51] <kwwii> I was guessing
[01:52] <Misosaki> Heheh
[01:52] <kwwii> swj: I think that if I can solve those two problems that it solves most of the problems in most of the peoples' eyes
[01:53] <swj> kwwii hopefully so
[01:53] <kwwii> but for now I need sleep
[01:54] <swj> cya later
[02:00] <Misosaki> nothlit: Tiny thing with Hardy wiki, but ... it says Ubuntu uses primarily brown and orange, but black/orange seems to be confirmed, so will it be changed or should we wait until at least Thursday?
[02:02] <nothlit> Misosaki: this is the tentative thing https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/SABDFLWants
[02:02] <nothlit> Misosaki: well those are general guidelines
[02:02] <nothlit> and i've now included an additional set of guidelines for those wishing to be eligible as a default
[02:02] <nothlit> but its going to be hidden until after the meeting
[02:03] <Misosaki> Yeah
[02:06] <Misosaki> Okay ... would be nice to see more info up after the meeting, e.g. things like using a modified Tango set
[02:06] <Misosaki> The more clues sometimes, the less misunderstanding
[02:07] <nothlit> people are interested in icons?
[02:07] <nothlit> i don't have much to say on that, you'll have to talk to lapo
[02:07] <Misosaki> Hard enough as is to make things consistent across the board
[02:08] <Misosaki> Not sure, didn't kwwii just said he'd likely be tweaking the Tango set?
[02:09] <kwwii> nothlit: please wait until we have the meeting and discussion to post anything
[02:09] <Misosaki> But the wallpaper, for e.g., doesn't exist alone in the desktop, obviously ... there are icons on it, menubars around it
[02:10] <kwwii> please, let's not rush this without nowing exactly what we are doing this time around
[02:10] <nothlit> kwwii: the link is commented out on the main hardy page, and theres a tentative layout warning on the sabdfl wants page
[02:10] <Misosaki> So the choice of icons set, for instance, might have an impact on other things
[02:10] <Misosaki> kwwii: Okay
[02:10] <kwwii> nothlit: but posting anything that I said without it coming from me is only second hand information
[02:10] <nothlit> kwwii: unless you want me to delete the wiki pages until afterwards?
[02:11] <kwwii> please, do delete it for now
[02:11] <Misosaki> brb
[02:11] <nothlit> kwwii: ok sure, sorry for the inconvenience
[02:11] <kwwii> I promise we can create those pages later, after we know exactly how to go about this
[02:11] <Misosaki> That's a promise :)
[02:11] <_MMA_> kwwii: Will you be in Boston?
[02:11] <kwwii> the first thing we need to do is to create something to convince him of what our vision is
[02:12] <kwwii> _MMA_: yes, you?
[02:12] <_MMA_> Cool. I look forward to talking there.
[02:12] <_MMA_> Yes. Not a nice short 2hr flight this time. ;)
[02:12] <kwwii> Misosaki: would you have time to head down to boston at the end of october?
[02:13] <Misosaki> Sorry, no go, kwwii
[02:13] <kwwii> oh well, I had to try
[02:13] <Misosaki> lols Could probably do video conferencing with all of us
[02:13] <Misosaki> Why?
[02:13] <kwwii> Misosaki: yeah, that was my second option
[02:14] <kwwii> we are having the UDS ... at that we could create a plan for the next release
[02:14] <Misosaki> Cool
[02:15] <kwwii> we would pay for the trip, hotel and food costs, of course
[02:15] <kwwii> by that time we would have a basic plan and we could work out the finer points
[02:17] <_MMA_> kwwii: Sorry if its been mentioned but is there an existing spec for this? Or is that part of what nothlit was working on?
[02:19] <_MMA_> kwwii: Also, are you a guy like me who has to get up at the same time as the kids no matter what time you go to bed? :)
[02:20] <kwwii> _MMA_: this is part of what nothlit and the rest of the community are woking on for the next release, yes
[02:21] <kwwii> _MMA_: yes, my son (9 years old) gets up to go to high school at 6:30 and I have to take him to the bus
[02:22] <kwwii> so I have to get up in 4 hours
[02:22] <kwwii> well, 4 hours and 8 minutes
[02:22] <_MMA_> :)
[02:23] <_MMA_> I have 2. 3 (boy) 5 (girl)
[02:23] <kwwii> which means I *really+ have to get some sleep
[02:23] <swj> highschool? are you from the US?
[02:23] <_MMA_> Night sir.
[02:23] <kwwii> yes, I am from the US but I live in germany
[02:24] <kwwii> my son started school early (after testing, etc.)
[02:24] <swj> so thats why you called in highschool...I'm from the US, but I though highschool was a US thing..maybe my ignorance
[02:24] <swj> I've never been out of the country
[02:24] <kwwii> yepp, highschool is an american thing
[02:24] <nothlit> form1?
[02:24] <swj> makes sense now
[02:24] <kwwii> here is it called Gymnasium
[02:24] <nothlit> interesting
[02:25] <swj> yes...I agree..interesting
[02:25] <kwwii> nothlit: where do you live?
[02:25] <nothlit> Hong Kong
[02:25] <nothlit> i'm canadian
[02:25] <kwwii> perhaps you and lassegul would be interested in coming?
[02:25] <nothlit> *blinks* maybe
[02:26] <nothlit> i thought you would have invited troy/damian
[02:26] <swj> Hong Kong...I saw on 1 against 100 the other than britain owned Hong Kong not long ago...that was very interesting
[02:26] <swj> 1 against 100 is a game show
[02:26] <kwwii> troy has attended one...if he would not be so negative I would invite him again
[02:26] <_MMA_> lol
[02:27] <_MMA_> Troy's alright. Just passionate. :)
[02:27] <kwwii> damian is a great artist, not sure how much he would be interested in working on the process though - perhaps he would be the right person
[02:27] <kwwii> _MMA_: yes, and he knows what he is talking about to an extent (I think he lacks a bit of experience in this sector)
[02:28] <kwwii> but if he is alway so negative I find it hard to invite him
[02:28] <_MMA_> kwwii: He helps us out somewhat as well.
[02:28] <_MMA_> (us=Ubuntu Studio)
[02:28] <kwwii> OSS distro design is not like 100% like artwork
[02:28] <_MMA_> Get some sleep! :)
[02:29] <kwwii> there are important differences and being positive about changing things is imporatant
[02:29] <kwwii> important
[02:29] <kwwii> anyway
[02:29] <kwwii> really time for sleep
[02:29] <kwwii> nothlit, lassegul: lets talk tomorrow about the UDS
[02:29] <kwwii> and for now, sleep
[02:29] <swj> I thought of something...someone mentioned something about black/orange theme...if that was released in October...in the US it would look like halloween...
[02:30] <kwwii> swj: no doubt! but this is for the next release, not gutsy
[02:30] <_MMA_> kwwii: Get some sleep. Tomorrow if you're around Id like to talk about Ubuntu Studio's possible UI change. (panel layouts really)
[02:30] <kwwii> so not worries
[02:30] <swj> good timing
[02:30] <swj> ;)
[02:30] <kwwii> and it is not totally orange and black in that sense
[02:30] <kwwii> _MMA_: love to
[02:50] <Misosaki> Hi 23meg
[02:51] <`23meg> hello
[02:51] <Misosaki> Thanks for the suggestion re Forum Ambassadors
[02:51] <`23meg> good to know you like it
[02:51] <`23meg> I briefly read your mails; will read in more detail tomorrow
[02:52] <Misosaki> nods -- good to at least have the ideas out there for the next release
[02:54] <`23meg> right
[03:08] <melare1> Ok, so I've been following the artwork discussion for a while (regarding the much disputed wallpaper)...
[03:09] <melare1> I understand the argument that the people on the forums (and members of the Digg community) may not be representative of the whole.  ...or at least they may not be Ubuntu's target market.
[03:09] <melare1> However I also think that it is very important that we do not upset these people.  ...many of these are very loyal Ubuntu followers.
[03:09] <melare1> Anyway, I guess the question is, who is our target market?  Are we working to get any feedback\input from them?
[03:09] <nothlit> the official line, from what i've heard is everybody
[03:10] <melare1> ok
[03:10] <nothlit> and to that end, artwork cannot be offensive to ANYBODY
[03:10] <melare1> right
[03:10] <nothlit> so we get blurs and swishes, because animals can be offensive as well
[03:10] <nothlit> in the tighter sense
[03:11] <nothlit> the default art target market is sabdfl (mark shuttleworth)
[03:11] <melare1> But there seems to be some resistance to what the community has to say about the artwork.  Would it be better if we polled random people?
[03:11] <nothlit> if you look on the mailing list, theres talk of using the ambassadors as a liason between the forums and the artwork contributors
[03:12] <melare1> Yeah, I've heard about that...
[03:14] <nothlit> the difficulty of setting up polls in an open and widespread fashion, is its easy for people to misintrepret and think that they're deciding the artwork for ubuntu
[03:14] <melare1> But I think what they need to realize is that if they do that, they will actually (or should) act on the feedback from the community (that is being relayed).
[03:14] <nothlit> when thats not the case, none of the community, not even the so called artwork team has such a say
[03:15] <melare1> I'm talking about going to a university and showing people visual choices and having them rate accordingly...
[03:15] <melare1> people who aren't even associated with the project.  ...true unbiased users
[03:15] <melare1> ..or like my boss at work
[03:16] <nothlit> oh, focus groups, that sounds pretty great
[03:16] <melare1> it's a total Windows shop...  I show them Ubuntu, but the first thing they do is change the theme and the background because they don't think it looks good.
[03:16] <nothlit> melare1: you should join the meeting, its on thursday, 20:00 UTC < note the time zone, IIRC, check the mailing list
[03:17] <melare1> I'll try if I don't have class...
[03:18] <melare1> But we can't keep doing this as  a community...  Ubuntu has a big name now.  We have Dell pre-installs and people like Walt-Mossberg looking...
[03:19] <nothlit> speaking of which, i expected better journalism from the wall street journal
[03:19] <melare1> Supposedly there is a marketing group for Ubuntu, but are they involved in this process?  ...it seems like they should be.
[03:19] <melare1> hehe, yeah it was pretty short
[03:19] <melare1> ...if I remember right
[03:19] <nothlit> the marketing group, no, they haven't participated
[03:19] <nothlit> the marketing group is unofficial grassroots marketing with no budget
[03:20] <melare1> yeah
[03:20] <_MMA_> melare1: You also have to remember Dell is free to change the look of the Ubuntu they install.
[03:21] <melare1> but there are still things they could do.  Surveys at universities are fairly painless.  ...people just assume you are doing it for a statistics class or something.
[03:23] <melare1> True, Dell and any other manufacturer can modify...  But at the same time it is something that can be a real buzz-kill for newbies (or people like Walt-Mossberg).  Or even my boss.  We want to impress these people every step of the way.
[03:26] <melare1> I'll be honest I haven't been the biggest fan of the brown theme.  ...but I wouldn't change it or anything, I understand that it is part of Ubuntu's brand by this point.  Actually I don't think people know what they like until they are shown...  Brown could work very nicely if implemented properly.  But up to this point that's where we've been lacking.
[03:27] <nothlit> brown has been implemented nicely, in the animal wallpapers, troy's etc
[03:28] <melare1> Yeah, I agree.  The animal wallpapers are very nice.  ...and unique.
[03:28] <nothlit> melare1: you should pitch your collaboration ideas to #ubuntu-marketing
[03:28] <melare1> Hopefully he'll continue on with his contributions. :)
[03:29] <melare1> Alrighty, I need to eat dinner, but I'll see what they have to say in a bit. :)
[03:29] <melare1> thanks for the feedback guys...
[03:32] <nothlit> melare1: yeah, damian has jumped into the irc/mailing list as well
[05:31] <KurtKraut> Where can I find OO Presentation templates with Ubuntu logo ? There used to be some templates in wiki.ubuntu.com     AfterDeath
[05:31] <KurtKraut>                        but I can't find it anymore.
[05:31] <KurtKraut> (sorry, it was a bad formated paste from weechat, but my question is true)
[07:31] <dmccal1> I've discovered some nice brownish photographs I could add to the Hardy ideas page. Is there a policy with non-scalable graphics?
[07:34] <nothlit> dmccal1: yeah, same as the conceptart page
[07:34] <nothlit> no taller than 240pixels thumbnail
[07:34] <nothlit> with link to the larger size
[07:35] <nothlit> dmccal1: thanks for taking the effort to check
[07:45] <dmccal1> As for the full image, should I aim at a particular aspect ratio and size?
[07:52] <dmccal1> I'm going to sleep, actually, but thanks in advance to whoever answers! Good night. (And thank you for the answer, too, nothlit).
 troy would be a lot more help if we would stop being so negative about everything :p
[08:07] <troy_s1> What a load of tripe
[08:07] <troy_s1> I am negative because of the bullshit that I have seen peddled in Ubuntu for far too long.
[08:07] <troy_s1> _AND_ the situation I went through in Edgy which was spun as some failure on the part of the community.
[08:07] <troy_s1> It is total horseshit.  So, sorry, but get with the program.
[08:14] <troy_s> Apologies, but I also have had many a private conversation with a good number of people on this, and quite frankly, the comments regarding 'community' and such have ranged from the outrageous to just plain rude.
[08:23] <melare1> troy_s, Yeah, I think we have a wealth of information available to us from the Ubuntu members.  Some of it is great and quite useful, some of it isn't as useful.  But I think every bit of it should be considered a valuable contribution.  We should not forget that the forum members are some of the most passionate Ubuntu users.  In fact, Ubuntu's large community separates the distro from the rest of the pack.
[08:29] <troy_s> I have zero problem with anyone offering statements about me or my work.  It is ironic the statements about 'negativity' however.  I'll leave it at that.
[08:54] <nothlit> nothing wrong with concerned forum members, even if they lash out the most dire critisicms, like I'm sorry to say this, but all of this is utter trash
[08:55] <nothlit> however, misinformed flaming is not something acceptable nor something useful
[08:56] <nothlit> they're getting worked up about the wrong facts, and are just spouting nasty comments--that isn't passionate, i'm afraid... its something else
[09:06] <troy_s> nothlit: That would be the side of the coin known as transparency -- which isn't something that just 'happens'.  All in all, I find the whole thing quite amusing.
[09:06] <troy_s> nothlit: It is wonderful to see people actually caring about the default art/design.
[09:09] <troy_s> night all.
[09:48] <lassegul_> good morning people
[10:01] <lapo> hi
[10:10] <lassegul> reading back. you people should really get to bed earlier, its important that you get enough sleep :)
[10:10] <lassegul> lapo: hi
[10:10] <lassegul> lapo: tangerine is really growing on me
[10:11] <lassegul> lapo: what is your future plans for tangerine?
[10:13] <lapo> lassegul: frankly speaking I'd like to kill it :-)
[10:13] <lassegul> lapo: haha!
[10:13] <lassegul> lapo: what if you got some help?
[10:14] <lapo> lassegul: the RightThingToDo(TM) is push nice icons upstream, not use an icon theme to fill the hole
[10:14] <lapo> s
[10:14] <lassegul> lapo: to gnome?
[10:14] <lapo> lassegul: applications in general
[10:14] <lassegul> lapo: ok.
[10:15] <lassegul> lapo: but the RightThingToDo(TM) is what you are planning to do?
[10:15] <lapo> example, scim has an ugly icon, that's an application bug
[10:16] <lapo> lassegul: anyway I'll continue trying to make ubuntu pretty iconwise
[10:18] <lapo> I'd like to kill tangerine and do something else
[10:18] <lassegul> lapo: I have no experience in iconmaking, but i would assume that icons are more a collaborative project than say... wallpapers
[10:18] <lapo> lassegul: no idea, I don't have contributions for tangerine usually
[10:19] <lapo> gnome-icon-theme is mostly a one man thing as well atm
[10:19] <lassegul> lapo: as long as you have decent guidelines, and skilled people, you can together agree on metaphors, and rest will look unified even though their made by different people?
[10:19] <lassegul> lapo: and tango?
[10:20] <lapo> tango icon theme is kinda untouched latelly
[10:20] <lassegul> lapo: but when it was made, was it a oneman project=
[10:20] <lapo> tango pixelpushers as andreasn or hylke are pushing tango icons upstram tho
[10:21] <lapo> I had several contribution to gnome icon theme
[10:21] <lapo> tho
[10:21] <lapo> and there were a lot of them for t-i-t as well
[10:22] <lapo> we have guidelines and we have a community, it works :-)
[10:22] <lassegul> interesting
[10:22] <lapo> anyway there are a pair of picky bastards who sit on top of g-i-t and t-i-t and carefully watch what goes in and what not (I'm one of those :-))
[10:23] <lassegul> lapo: what is the 5 most basic icons. If you should start an icontheme what five icons would it be?
[10:23] <lassegul> *five first
[10:24] <lapo> folder and folder derived icons + trash
[10:24] <lapo> then probably navigation arrows and stuff and hw bits
[10:24] <lapo> well visible hw bits
[10:24] <lapo> computer and computer derived icons
[10:26] <lassegul> lapo: yeah. I was thinking, if you were to start a new theme, you first make these icons and perfect them, then make written guidelines, and put them to a wiki page. You invite people to join. What do you think would happen?
[10:26] <lapo> check what's in crux icon theme for example
[10:26] <lapo> lassegul: mostly nothing :-)
[10:26] <lassegul> lapo: i expected that :)
[10:27] <lapo> lassegul: have a 'working' community around artwork is a difficult thing, nearly impossible :-)
[10:27] <lapo> tango is a nice exception
[10:27] <lapo> lassegul: the problems in artwork communities are different tastes
[10:27] <lassegul> lapo: im just checking out what is possible, plausible and so on.
[10:28] <lapo> the community must recognize "authorities" for technical or artistic merits
[10:29] <lapo>  or experience
[10:30] <lassegul> lapo: but if you had these first, say 10, icons, and you say: "This is my project, and we dont change the guidelines or style. Dont like it? Dont join!" Still we would push people to join, with personalized invitations to people who makes good art.
[10:30] <lapo> that's how it worked with tango
[10:31] <lassegul> lapo: Now lets say we DID get people to join, would their contributions look "all wrong" even if the basic icons are up on display and guidelines are good?
[10:31] <lapo> possible
[10:32] <lapo> I'm not sure which is the right way, I can tell you how it worked in tango btw
[10:32] <lassegul> please do
[10:33] <lapo> tango was started by the best and most experienced pixel pushers in the community
[10:33] <lapo> for example jimmac, garret, tig
[10:34] <lapo> they created most of the icons around so they had experience and technical merits
[10:35] <lapo> people recognized them as leaders, especially jimmac which was the most active in the project
[10:36] <lapo> so it was clear who has authority not for imposition but for merits on field
[10:36] <lapo> for example if jimmac criticized my work I wasn't upset, but kinda honored
[10:37] <lassegul> I see.
[10:37] <lapo> there are other things surelly, a friendly environment for example
[10:37] <lapo> and our guidelines which are simple but effective
[10:38] <lapo> for example when I see a really bad icon i never say "it sucks", I say "it can be improved" and I offer advice
[10:38] <lapo> s/I/we/
[10:39] <lapo> if a discussion goes nowhere we don't block the process we try something and see the effects
[10:39] <lapo> that happened for the g-i-t search icon for example
[10:41] <lassegul> do you have a link for this icon? just curios
[10:42] <lapo> lassegul: http://people.freedesktop.org/~jimmac/icons/#git under action, edit-search
[10:43] <lassegul> hmm
[10:44] <lapo> edit-find
[10:44] <lapo> not search
[10:44] <lassegul> there we go. ok.
[10:44] <lapo> the point is that as in the business the decisional process cannot be stopped
[10:47] <lapo> and if a decision is not ok for you you have to trust your leaders and go on w/o leaving the community
[10:47] <lapo> that's the difficult part
[10:47] <lassegul> ok. i catch your drift.
[10:47] <lapo> and I think it can be reached only if you think your 'leader' is good for some reason
[10:48] <lassegul> yeah, thats pretty generic
[10:48] <lapo> for me for example the leader as to be good for merits on field
[10:48] <lapo> I can't trust words alone for example
[10:49] <lassegul> for others it might be a good feedback, usually its a combination of several things.
[10:49] <lapo> sure
[10:50] <lapo> there's a lot of things to do to build a community but it's kinda black magic and not a strict and defined  process
[10:51] <lassegul> no, its pretty generic organisational psychology. But its online, so it some methods for creating trust, authority etc. wont work.
[10:52] <lassegul> *-it
[10:52] <lassegul> lapo: my goal differs somewhat from yours, i think.
[10:53] <lassegul> lapo: you want to make a really good icon theme.
[10:54] <lassegul> lapo: i want to create a community that activates a good deal of people, both experienced with ubuntu artwork, and people who arent in to the game, and give them the possibility and resources to make something decent.
[10:55] <lapo> lassegul: I don't want to make a good icon theme, btw :-)
[10:55] <lassegul> lapo: im not talking overall goals, im just talking in this situation.
[10:55] <lapo> lassegul: design by community usally don't work, bikeshed issues all over the place
[10:55] <lapo> that's the biggest problem
[10:56] <lassegul> lapo: yeah, i see.
[10:56] <lapo> and artwork community spend more time arguing about silly things then working actually
[10:56] <lapo> s/and/an/
[10:56] <lapo> and that's bad and it's an energy stop for people how do the work
[10:57] <lassegul> lapo: maybe that is an infrastructure problem.
[10:57] <lassegul> lapo: to a limited extent
[10:57] <lapo> lassegul: not sure
[10:57] <lapo> lassegul: you can't really do too much infrastructure tho
[10:58] <lapo> lassegul: if there is a strict process for stuff to go in, it will be limitating
[10:58] <lapo> 'causey you need more energy to follow this process then working on stuff
[10:58] <lapo> and that's an energy stop
[10:59] <lapo> lassegul: I think tango community work because there isn't any specific process
[10:59] <lapo> for t-i-t there's just jimmac sitting on the repository, you get it's approval and it goes in
[11:00] <lapo> if you think you're right you just discuss with him, you don't start a flame war with the whole community
[11:00] <lapo> heya andreasn
[11:01] <andreasn> hi lapo
[11:02] <lapo> s/it's/his/
[11:03] <lassegul> lapo: hear me out. If you had a webpage, where you have categories, like NavigationIcons-->Backbutton, then you could have different versions. The different versions would stand up against each other, and only one will be picked in the end. The leader picks his set of icons, but some dude that doesnt agree with that will make his own set and start his own icon theme. An infrastructure that also will let him do his fork, and serve his work.
[11:04] <andreasn> hey dudes, what are you chatting about?
[11:04] <lapo> andreasn: artwork community making I think :-)
[11:04] <lassegul> andreasn: im just trying to explore what you can do with community in icons.
[11:04] <lassegul> andreasn: seems its kinda hard :P
[11:05] <lapo> lassegul: the forks are not a problem
[11:05] <andreasn> nah, you just draw some stuff and then you put it in mostly :)
[11:05] <lapo> lassegul: everybody can fork, but they need to be better then the people working on the main project to produce something nicer
[11:06] <lapo> lassegul: and for icons for example, just having to put the icon on such a page is too much work
[11:06] <andreasn> the secret might lie in that you decide to draw icons for something like dia, instead of discussing folder icon design
[11:06] <lapo> lassegul: consider you have tons of icons
[11:06] <lapo> andreasn is right
[11:06] <lapo> working not talking, that's the trick mostly :-)
[11:08] <lassegul> lapo: hm. maybe, but i think most of the traditional ways of doing thing, even though it might be more effective, seems a little hard for many. So if you could wrap the process up in a nice web page, you could get a lot more people to contribute.
[11:08] <lapo> lassegul: if you have many contributions, surelly most of them will be bad
[11:09] <lapo> or at least not good enough, but you still have to scan them all
[11:09] <lapo> and lose time there
[11:10] <lapo> having an ml and a channel for tango is enough for example
[11:10] <lassegul> ml?
[11:10] <lapo> mailing list
[11:10] <lapo> if a contributor is really interested in the project he will join the channel or drop messages on the mailing list
[11:11] <lapo> we don't want endless discussion, so I see a "choose the one you like most" page quite bad
[11:11] <lassegul> ok, yeah. so when you want some icons in, you send it to jimmac?
[11:12] <lassegul> by mail or ftp or whatever, no standardized way of doing that?
[11:12] <lapo> for example if I do an icon for g-i-t which I'm not sure about I'll surelly ask andreasn, jimmac, dobey or the other guys if it's good then I'll commit it eventually
[11:12] <lapo> exact
[11:12] <lapo> jimmac, andreasn, garrett or myselft
[11:13] <lapo> dobey, well who can upload to repos
[11:14] <lapo> if jimmac draw an icon I think it's bad, I'll touch it up the reverse is true as well
[11:14] <lassegul> I would imagine that many people thought to them selves; "hey, those tango icon guidelines looks good, i would like to make some too. But, how can i send them in?" And then he goes to deviantart, and creates something spectacular there.
[11:15] <lassegul> but not tango at all.
[11:15] <lapo> lassegul: that's happen
[11:15] <lapo> it happened that we contacted the authors of nice stuff
[11:15] <lapo> to get his contribution in
[11:16] <lapo> lassegul: anyway andreasn is gnome artistic 'dictator' I think he know every quirk of an artwork community now, so feel free to ask him :-)
[11:16] <lapo> right andreasn? :-)
[11:17] <lapo> especially about wallpapers I believe :-)
[11:17] <lassegul> lapo: because this model you described is obviously designed for techies in small groups. I can never imagine an art studen who just made the switch to ubuntu realize they must go into #tango and talk with jimmac.
[11:18] <lassegul> lapo: and then youve potentialy lost a great artist.
[11:18] <lapo> s/jimmac/andreasn, dobey, garrett, tig and even lapo/ :-)
[11:18] <lassegul> i get it.
[11:18] <lapo> lassegul: if the artist is interested in working with that community he will do if he doesn't better not to have him onboard
[11:19] <lapo> that's my point of view naturally, I'm not speaking for tango project naturally
[11:21] <lassegul> lapo: but everyone starts as uninterested. then they see some tango icons, and some get interested. Then they see the webpage, then even more get interested, if they speak with you, meaby another 10% gets interested.
[11:21] <lassegul> lapo: interest is relative, is my point.
[11:22] <lapo> sure but the first thing you need to focus on is getting the work done not the community itself
[11:22] <lapo> if the community gets in the way or the process you build or something else you will end up with nothing
[11:24] <lassegul> yeah
[11:24] <lapo> so better to have no infrastructure or a very simple one then a huge one which gets in the way too many times
[11:26] <lassegul> lapo: true, but isnt it possible to create a way to get involved with icons that is so easy that everyone will see it as obvious from the start?
[11:28] <lassegul> lapo: coming to #tango and saying "Ive got some icons, anyone care to take a look" isnt happening very much, i guess.
[11:28] <lapo> lassegul: no idea, what I can tell you is that what we have in tango works and there's only a wiki with "joing #tango channel or write to the mailing list if you wanna contribute"
[11:28] <lapo> lassegul: it happens all the time
[11:28] <lapo> lassegul: and we have a look
[11:28] <lassegul> ok lol :)
[11:29] <lapo> lassegul: I join the project like that
[11:30] <lapo> the jimmac, andreasn, garrett and the other guys had the patience to teach me how to make tango style icons :-)
[11:32] <lassegul> lapo: but if I were to draw some blueprints for some other infrastructure, for it to attractive to you, it would have to be effiecient(lots of icons gets prosessed at once), and that discussions dont hinder the actual work.
[11:32] <lassegul> *for it to be attractive*
[11:34] <lapo> lassegul: we're in the oss world not in a business, remember this :-)
[11:35] <lassegul> lapo: how come? Or what do you mean?
[11:47] <lapo> lassegul: what I say is that something which work in a business is not always working for oss
[11:51] <kwwii_away> moin
[11:51] <lassegul> hi
[11:51] <`23meg> hi there
[11:51] <lassegul> oh hi `23meg, didnt see you come in.
[11:59] <kwwii> what a morning
[11:59] <lassegul> ok?
[11:59] <kwwii> they removed the elephant pic due to the CD size
[11:59] <kwwii> so I screamed about that
[11:59] <lassegul> How did it turn out?
[12:00] <kwwii> and now it turns out that the default pic has to be a png file
[12:00] <kwwii> they are putting it back in, after half an hour on the telephone
[12:01] <kwwii> ok, after discussion with others the meeting will have to be next week
[12:01] <lassegul> ok.
[12:03] <kwwii> I am trying to get Jono or someone of his community calibre to attend and help out a bit
[12:03] <lassegul> cool
[12:05] <kwwii> once I get a response from him  I will send an email with the time and date of the meeting
[12:05] <kwwii> I think that tuesday at 20:00 sounds good
[12:05] <kwwii> then I will post an idea about the agenda and we can discuss that, add to it, etc
[12:06] <lassegul> sounds good. Trying to get in contact with some of those people who have been critizising the wallpaper and the process, like garba, to open a dialogue, but i havent gotten any replys yet.
[12:07] <kwwii> forget it, they do not want to talk, they want to complain
[12:08] <lassegul> well it didnt take much effort, and maybe something interesting will come out of it.
[12:09] <kwwii> good luck
[12:10] <lapo> kwwii: so the default wallpaper is changed?
[12:11] <kwwii> lapo: no it is the same pic just a different version but now they changed it to png so I have no idea about the quality
[12:12] <lassegul> but the newer version, if ive seen the real deal, stil has some blocks in it?
[12:12] <lapo> kwwii: librsvg renders gradients badly if it got converted with inkscape it is probably be better
[12:12] <kwwii> it is not an svg, it is a photo
[12:14] <lapo> so it was a jpg?
[12:15] <kwwii> yepp
[12:16] <kwwii> and after converting it to png the file size is much larger so they wanted to remove the elephant pic
[12:16] <lapo> kwwii: well then the quality is the same
[12:16] <kwwii> after screaming on irc and a few telephone calls it is back in though
[12:16] <kwwii> our problems will not be solved with the beta it seems
[12:16] <lapo> elephant?
[12:16] <lassegul> what problem?
[12:17] <lapo> isnt' the uhm... brownfluid the defalt?
[12:17] <lapo> that's what I used in the wallpaper of the monitor icons in tangerine
[12:20] <kwwii> lapo: yes, it is still the brown fluid pic, just a bit lighter
[12:22] <lapo> ah ok
[01:25] <lassegul> `23meg: you there?
[01:25] <`23meg> yes
[01:25] <lassegul> `23meg: About your idea on how to Forum Ambassadors add comments from forum thread to wiki page of the contribution.
[01:26] <`23meg> yes?
[01:26] <lassegul> `23meg: since contributors can edit those wiki pages, what stops users from editing the wiki page themselves and add their own comments directly? Can you lock a wiki page?
[01:27] <lassegul> `23meg: or what was the idea here?
[01:28] <`23meg> the idea is that 1) people find wiki pages intimidating 2) we wouldn't want too many redundant and not-so-useful comments flooding the wiki pages
[01:29] <lassegul> `23meg: What if we said that contributions are added by making a thread in some forum category. Then Forum Ambassadors creates the wiki page for it?
[01:30] <lassegul> That way everything would be standardized, and actually easier for the contributers.
[01:30] <`23meg> I don't exactly get it; could you rephrase? do you mean contributions of artwork, or comments?
[01:33] <lassegul> yeah, contributions of artwork gets added as a thread with an attachement in some forum category. Then the FA makes the wiki page for the artwork contributors, report in the thread that the wiki page has been created and link to the wiki main art page where an index of all artwork contributions is placed.
[01:34] <lassegul> `23meg: By linking to the main art page with the index you could also have some overveiw of the process of picking the final artwork, so that noone gets it wrong.
[01:35] <`23meg> sure, that can work
[01:35] <`23meg> but there's not too much artwork contribution from the forums, as far as I'm aware
[01:35] <`23meg> and I guess people who do contribute can add to the wiki pages themselves, or we can guide them one by one in the worst case
[01:37] <lassegul> `23meg: this would  add a little more work to the forum ambassadors. On the plus side, artists dont have to know how to edit wiki pages, the wiki pages can be locked to all except FA, and everone gets sent to the main page with an index.
[01:38] <`23meg> I don't think there's a way to lock wiki pages to a certain group
[01:38] <`23meg> It's not really needed either
[01:38] <lassegul> `23meg: no actually not
[01:43] <lassegul> `23meg: no your right, this method is not needed. i was just fiddling with variations and tried to think of a way to keep people starting from a main incoming artwork page with an index and more importantly something about how this wont be a forum poll, to keep away confusion. I think it was alvevind that said that the user contributions automatically gave him the impression that this was going to be a democratic decission.
[01:43] <lassegul> `23meg: that can be avoided in some other way.
[01:55] <`23meg> I agree
[01:55] <`23meg> reading the latest posts in the thread, I'm getting a bit hopeless about it though
[01:56] <lassegul> `23meg: you are talking about automatic assumption of democratic decission?
[01:57] <`23meg> yes, and about people's whole perception of Ubuntu being limited with the forums
[01:58] <lassegul> the thing is, if we are going to encourage people to contribute, the automatic assumption thing will be even stronger. therefore we must actively stop that from happening. in some way... :-)
[02:02] <kwwii> 7me gets lunch
[02:02] <kwwii> erm
[02:04] <kwwii> lol, just heard a story about a guy getting all pissy because he thinks that the community should decide how canonical spends their money
[02:04] <lassegul> hello socialist utopia
[02:04] <lassegul> lol
[02:06] <kwwii> before I go, one question: are you guys ok with doing the meeting at 1700 UTC?
[02:06] <`23meg> kwwii, I'm fine
[02:06] <kwwii> lassegul
[02:06] <lassegul> me too
[02:06] <kwwii> ?
[02:06] <kwwii> cool
[02:07] <lassegul> thats 1900 pm in berlin time right?
[02:07] <kwwii> ok, so I will say it will be at 17:00 UTC on tuesday
[02:07] <lassegul> good
[02:08] <lassegul> `23meg: about the thing with ubuntu being limited to the forums, this also kicks in: Either you could accept that, go with the flow and let everything wich can be done in the forums stay in forums. i think the method i described above, where art contributors actually adds art contribs to the forums. Or one could try to educate the forumusers, and lead them on to the wiki, mailinglists and IRC.
[02:09] <`23meg> I side with the latter approach, but I'm also doubtful of whether it can work to any meaningful extent
[02:10] <`23meg> things staying on the forums really doesn't help
[02:10] <lassegul> i think its wierd some of those people from the thread dont show up here. If they wanted to discuss, it would have been much quicker to done it on IRC
[02:10] <`23meg> people keep starting threads about "bugs" that they don't report on the bug tracker
[02:11] <`23meg> and we instruct them to file bugs one by one, even though the bug tracker link is on the top of the page
[02:11] <artnay> just make a sticky to forums (both art and design + devel version) in which you state the most important links and some guidelines
[02:11] <`23meg> it's because they only care about the forums
[02:11] <artnay> `23meg: I bet that's because they're not sure if it's a bug or not OR they just want some credit for finding a bug
[02:11] <`23meg> they don't care to learn what IRC is, how to connect, whom to talk to and how, etc.
[02:11] <lassegul> `23meg: yeah but if the procedure was that the FA would then report it in the bug tracker for them it would have been ok.
[02:12] <lassegul> `23meg: not that im saying you should do that, but just as an example
[02:12] <`23meg> artnay, the cases in which they're not sure it's a bug are separate
[02:12] <`23meg> I have no problem with that
[02:12] <artnay> blaeh, just don't notify about those bugs at devel version
[02:13] <`23meg> lassegul, we can't possibly file bugs on behalf of people. we'd both be outnumbered, and many bugs can be reproduced on certain configurations only
[02:13] <`23meg> we try to teach them to fish, not give them fish
[02:14] <lassegul> `23meg: but i was using it as an example as how art contributors could add to the forum instead of making a wiki page
[02:14] <`23meg> I know
[02:14] <artnay> klepas: hey
[02:14] <`23meg> we'll discuss that in the meeting then
[02:15] <lassegul> i dont know. i think we should limit this meeting to the very big issues, then sort out the details later. Lets see kwwiis agenda, then take it from there.
[02:15] <lassegul> lunch is serverd
[02:15] <lassegul> *severd
[02:15] <lassegul> **served
[02:15] <artnay> just keep the discussion on forums (all these 'I like it', 'change the brown/orange' threads) but every constructive work of art and comment to wiki/launchpad
[02:16] <artnay> you should define the separation between launchpad and wiki as it's not clear at the moment (imho)
[02:16] <`23meg> artnay, that was the gist of my first suggestion
[02:16] <klepas> artnay: hey dude!
[02:16] <klepas> sup?
[02:17] <artnay> klepas: I'm fine, you? finally some action here, eh? ;-)
[02:17] <klepas> yea :P
[02:18] <klepas> i'm going pretty good
[02:18] <artnay> `23meg: ok then. I haven't been following the discussion here (backlog seems to be huge though) but it's good to see something happening
[02:18] <artnay> for example the whole artwork process is much more open now than it was before i.e. dapper
[02:19] <artnay> now we (as a community) at least know the rules concerning artwork. and now people are given guidelines by people in charge
[02:19] <`23meg> sure; I have hope that the next meeting will really be beneficial
[02:20] <artnay> I see that as a good thing since back in 2005 nobody outside canonical (well except AndyFitz and a few others) knew about workflows of ubuntu-artwork
[02:22] <lassegul> anu?
[02:22] <artnay> klepas: done any work lately? I've been busy mainly with moin and plone but there's something at http://artnay.iki.fi
[02:23] <artnay> mostly 600 though ;-)
[02:25] <klepas> artnay: yea
[02:25] <klepas> http://klepas.deviantart.com
[02:25] <klepas> lassegul: Australian National University
[02:25] <klepas> mhh.. weird
[02:26] <klepas> "Error, email address cannot contian lowercase characters [a-z] ! Please re-enter the email address."
[02:48] <klepas> w00t done :)
[02:50] <klepas> https://www.anu.edu.au/newmedia/
[05:57] <kwwii> lapo: could you send me an SVG version of your effects icons, I wanted to try something out tomorrow
[06:09] <lapo> kwwii: sorry, I don't have them here, anyway macslow should have the package
[06:10] <kwwii> lapo: cool, I'll bug him then :-)
[06:10] <kwwii> thanks
[06:10] <lapo> np
[08:21] <nothlit`alpha> lassegul: `23meg: i thought the plan was to post concept/progress art from the wikis onto the forums in a wip thread by the ambassadors which would relay information back?
[08:22] <lassegul> nothlit`alpha: yeah, thats the plan. I was just playing with the idea of doing it the other way around
[08:24] <nothlit`alpha> i suppose that could work, we'd still need to mirror it in a central place though, and create a subforum for this stuff
[08:27] <nothlit> i personally, dislike forums myself though-- pages and pages of the same thing that I don't have the time to read
[08:27] <nothlit> so the meeting is moved to tuesday 1800 UTC?
[08:28] <lassegul> nothlit`alpha: itll be 1800 utc
[08:28] <lassegul> *make that 1700 UTC
[08:30] <lassegul> nothlit`alpha: probably. The official mail hasnt been sent out yet, but everything is pointing in that direction. Tuesdag 17:00
[08:30] <lassegul> whats with the two nicks?
[08:30] <nothlit`alpha> i have an extra one on a shell server
[08:31] <nothlit`alpha> i keep it just in case of d/cs, etc
[08:32] <Misosaki> lassegul: How would the other way around work?
[08:33] <lassegul> nothlit: the thing is the forum thread as well as some of the mails on the mailing lists indicate that some of the users "autmatically assume that this will be a democratic decision". My theory is that if we push harder on people, this will happen more. Therefore we should find some way to counter that "automatic assumption"
[08:34] <lassegul> *push harder on people to contribute and get active.
[08:34] <nothlit> for that, we can include an explanatory introduction whereever artwork is introduced/ displayed/ asked for
[08:34] <Misosaki> A lot of people made that assumption because the process wasn't spelled out as clearly as it could've been.
[08:35] <lassegul> nothlit: Misosaki: you are both right.
[08:35] <Misosaki> There's still the element of community input and collaboration, but people should also be aware that there are people assigned to make "informed decisions" based on what is being provided by the community.
[08:36] <nothlit> informed decisions?
[08:36] <lassegul> hehe
[08:37] <nothlit> i'm not sure those making the decisions care about community opinion
[08:37] <nothlit> they choose what they think of as right for the product
[08:37] <Misosaki> It would also help if people understand the rationale behind a design choice ... positive things about the choice
[08:38] <nothlit> the same way if you told colgate you thought of a totally awesome way for them to advertise their product
[08:38] <Misosaki> nothlit: Yeah, "informed decisions" is something of a euphemism ... but the impression the public should get is that some thought and consideration went behind the choice
[08:39] <Misosaki> And that it wasn't chosen for some random reason
[08:40] <lassegul> we need to create some authority around kwwii
[08:40] <Misosaki> Once a decision has been made, and of course design decisions are often subjective ... but as long as it can be backed up properly, it'd make transitioning easier
[08:40] <lassegul> or something that can make the uninformed understand that he/his boss is the right person to pick the wallpaper
[08:41] <Misosaki> lassegul: That, or what makes the design stand out?
[08:41] <lassegul> Now its just a faceless shadow that picks the wallpaper.
[08:41] <Misosaki> What does it mean for Ubuntu and the image it's trying to present to the public?
[08:41] <lassegul> Misosaki: that as well.
[08:41] <_MMA_> Misosaki: I personally always thought " thought and consideration went behind the choice". People will always find something to bitch about no matter how much info you put out.
[08:42] <lassegul> _MMA_: the reaction is always triggered by some action.
[08:42] <Misosaki> _MMA_: There's putting out "facts", and there's putting out a convincing argument in support of a decision
[08:42] <lassegul> _MMA_: if you change the action the reaction will also change.
[08:43] <Misosaki> To obscure or leave the process looking foggy and people will be distrustful
[08:43] <_MMA_> Misosaki: Ubuntu to me is rather transparent. What "convinces" some people will never be enough for others. Just the way it goes.
[08:44] <Misosaki> _MMA_: It's transparent in many aspects, but things could be clearer still
[08:45] <_MMA_> See. Your opinion. :)
[08:45] <lassegul> _MMA_: yeah once you know where to look or who to talk to its real transparent. If all you know is the forums, we must first direct them to the wiki, and the information must be clear there.
[08:45] <Misosaki> Imho, most of what had happened was mostly the result of misconceptions, misunderstandings
[08:45] <_MMA_> Thats all Im saying. ;)
[08:45] <Misosaki> lassegul: Yeah
[08:45] <nothlit> _MMA_: they're just harumphed that animal isn't what was chosen as they assumed it to be, so they assume that those choosing must be... lacking
[08:46] <_MMA_> nothlit: Sure.
[08:46] <nothlit> if the choice was something that they thought deserved it, they might praise those who made such a choice
[08:47] <_MMA_> lassegul: Then I feel its up to users to explore as well.
[08:47] <lassegul> yeah, but the better they know the person and the more faith they have im him, the more tolerance they have for their favorite not getting picked
[08:47] <Misosaki> Yeah, but if one can explain why the chosen one is better ... but so far, please correct me if this is wrong, but there hasn't been much in the way of explaining that choice
[08:47] <lassegul> _MMA_: that would be a moral issue.
[08:47] <Misosaki> Other than it's starting to be better known who makes the choice
[08:47] <_MMA_> lassegul: And something not to blame Ubuntu/Canonical for.
[08:48] <Misosaki> Just "who" isn't going to explain it, except to the cynical ... people are looking at the Animals set and like it, but because something else was chosen, they're struggling to understand why
[08:49] <lassegul> _MMA_: what im saying is that we need to have a practical view on this. All users SHOULD be on the mailing lists, but they dont, and we must find ways to work with tha.
[08:49] <Misosaki> Some probably downright don't want to listen, and that's fine .. but some people are just plain puzzled
[08:49] <lassegul> *+t
[08:50] <_MMA_> lassegul: Sure. I am of the opinion that users need to learn with the development community as much as we need to help things.
[08:50] <Misosaki> When people don't know for sure, that's when confusion and other less pleasant things start circulating
[08:50] <kwwii> re
[08:50] <_MMA_> WIKI/ML/Forum. Its not hard.
[08:50] <lassegul> _MMA_: Let's make it easier :)
[08:50] <_MMA_> You dont even have to be on the list to search/read the archives.
[08:51] <Misosaki> That's why Forum Ambassadors could be a very good thing ... people to keep the record straight
[08:51] <_MMA_> Misosaki: I agree.
[08:51] <kwwii> after talking to several people I think I have a pretty good idea of how we need to proceed
[08:51] <kwwii> Forum Ambassadors are a good idea
[08:52] <_MMA_> Misosaki: But call me cynical. Coming from a user->dev, most users just dont care and love to bitch.
[08:52] <kwwii> and as several people have pointed out: I need to clearly define *everything* so that nobody mistakes things or forms their own ideas because the information is hard to find
[08:52] <kwwii> _MMA_: that is a very good point and I doubt it will ever change
[08:53] <_MMA_> I sadly know.
[08:53] <kwwii> we do need to hear what they are saying but we do not necessarily have to do everything they say
[08:53] <lassegul> _MMA_: even though we cant force all the users to care, and keep them from complaining, what you are saying is too black/white
[08:53] <Misosaki> _MMA_: Yeah, there're often people like that ... but listen to what they have to say anyway, and make sure 1) the decision-makers are confident in their choices, and 2) the rest of the public are informed as to why those choices were made and how they benefit Ubuntu
[08:53] <kwwii> and we need a good way to communicate between the different parts
[08:53] <Misosaki> That will help keep the FUD down
[08:53] <kwwii> Misosaki: exactly
[08:54] <lassegul> The level of how much and many users care can be changed by us.
[08:55] <Misosaki> That and a robot to churn out massive doses of coffee
[08:55] <lassegul> By good information, communication etc.
[08:55] <Misosaki> ;)
[08:55] <_MMA_> :)
[08:55] <Misosaki> lassegul: nods
[08:55] <kwwii> I think that half of this current problem exists because there was not enough information and the information that was there was not seen by everyone
[08:56] <kwwii> _MMA_: I am hoping that some of the community members step up and help on documentation things and spreading that information
[08:56] <lassegul> kwwii: yeah but i would also think that if more users contributed, they would feel responsible. The bigger the mass that feel responsible, the harder it will be to bitch and whine
[08:57] <_MMA_> To me, thats the balance people just dont get. If kwwii spends all his time documenting everything, where's the time to create? :) We _really_ have a finite amount of people who will actually do something.
[08:57] <_MMA_> I know this 1st hand with Ubuntu Studio trust me.
[08:57] <nothlit`alpha> the information does exist, its just not all in the same place
[08:57] <_MMA_> kwwii: Here's hoping. :)
[08:57] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, no doubt
[08:58] <kwwii> lassegul: there will always be a certain amount of people that just want to complain
[08:58] <nothlit`alpha> _MMA_: afaik we're only trying to document the rules/guidelines/working process, rather than the actual complete progress of which there will just likely be checkpoints
[08:58] <nothlit`alpha> that should be perfectly manageable
[08:59] <lassegul> kwwii:(repeating myself) yeah, _but_ the level of how much and many users care can be changed by us.
[08:59] <_MMA_> nothlit`alpha: Thats cool. My cynical side just think it wont be enough. ( gah. just ignore me. Im feeling cranky) :)
[08:59] <Misosaki> lol
[08:59] <nothlit`alpha> lassegul: the chronic complainers are never going to be in a place where they are responsible
[09:00] <nothlit`alpha> this is true of all things *chuckle*
[09:00] <Misosaki> Heh
[09:00] <lassegul> nothlit`alpha: then lets make the mass of users who do like the art team so big that it will be harder to bitch and whine.
[09:00] <lassegul> Anyways, that isnt the only issue here. We should find out how to make more people contribute as well.
[09:01] <lassegul> While still keeping it clear that it wont be a democratic process.
[09:01] <lassegul> I think that might be the real hard problem.
[09:01] <nothlit`alpha> we can try to get something in the newsletter, i think theres one
[09:01] <nothlit`alpha> and the full circle magazine
[09:02] <lassegul> thats good. we should also map out good artists that arent connected to us.
[09:02] <lassegul> and later invite them to join. Like you guys did with JConnor, kwwii
[09:05] <_MMA_> kwwii: Do you admin that list?
[09:05] <nothlit`alpha> because the mailing list, when it forwards a mail it sets the from field to the original sender
[09:05] <nothlit`alpha> just use reply to all
[09:06] <_MMA_> Sure. I know. Its just odd.
[09:08] <_MMA_> "Where are replies to list messages directed?" is the option. Would be nice to get it set to "The list"
[09:10] <kwwii> _MMA_: yes, I am admin
[09:10] <kwwii> I can check that out
[09:10] <kwwii> I just started as admin a couple of weeks ago
[09:10] <kwwii> first I spent an entire day going through the 2000+ backlog
[09:11] <_MMA_> Ouch.
[09:12] <_MMA_> I do the 2 Ubuntu Studio ones. I spend half the time processing spam. Its crazy.
[09:14] <Misosaki> =/
[09:14] <Misosaki> No volunteers to do this?
[09:15] <nothlit`alpha>  who's going to volunteer to do something so boring
[09:16] <_MMA_> Well its also a trust thing. And I get ALOT of emails. Sux really.
[09:16] <Misosaki> Well, how about a robot?
[09:17] <Misosaki> :)
[09:17] <_MMA_> Besides the normal posts there's alot of admin type email. Notifications about everything.
[09:17] <lassegul> Misosaki: never trust the robots :P
[09:17] <lassegul> Misosaki: didnt you learn anything from terminator 1-3
[09:17] <_MMA_> lol
[09:17] <Misosaki> lol
[09:18] <Misosaki> Was thinking more along the lines of C3PO
[09:22] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, the list gets about 5-10 spams a day
[09:30] <calavera> hola a todos
[09:30] <calavera> ayuda
[09:37] <Misosaki> Question: Did sabdfl ever mention a new theme for future releases? Just thought it interesting that his wiki mentions the "Humanity" theme and why brown was chosen, so if there's going to be a colour change, it'd be helpful to know what it means to him
[09:38] <Misosaki> Just as an another possible starting point
[09:40] <lassegul> Misosaki: do you have a link=
[09:40] <Misosaki> htto://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth
[09:40] <Misosaki> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarkShuttleworth
[09:41] <Misosaki> Scroll down a bit into the questions ... there's two about brown
[09:41] <nothlit`alpha> its probably just based on that ad he liked?
[09:42] <Misosaki> Well, what exactly did he like about it? From his perspective, what did that ad say?
[09:42] <nothlit`alpha> he didn't say
[09:43] <nothlit`alpha> i'm sure kwwii will talk about it more during the meeting
[09:43] <Misosaki> It's fine to just like something ... but the designers that have to figure out how to translate that liking
[09:43] <lassegul> well im off to watch some Heroes. Season 2!
[09:43] <lassegul> see you later.
[09:43] <Misosaki> Laters lassegul
[09:44] <dmccal1> The updated default wallpaper has a much nicer shade of brown
[09:44] <Misosaki> nothlit`alpha: Yeah, that'd be nice
[09:44] <dmccal1> It seems that the slightly less intense browns work better
[09:45] <dmccal1> (Grrr! What has happened to my name?!)
[09:45] <Misosaki> Some tonal range and contrast helps
[09:46] <nothlit> dmccal1: you get disconnected and your irc client added a 1 because your ghost still occupied the original
[09:46] <dmccal1> Ah :)
[09:46] <nothlit> Misosaki: sabdfl doesn't like that
[09:46] <Misosaki> nothlit: Really ... there's contrast and some tonal range in the ad
[09:47] <Misosaki> Not high contrast ... but it's not entirely flat either
[09:47] <Misosaki> *visually, that is
[09:49] <nothlit> Misosaki: sure, he may respond to the contrast and tonal range
[09:49] <nothlit> Misosaki: but he doesn't recognise it and thinks that these things are bad for a distro
[09:49] <Misosaki> Maybe the next meeting will be more of a "meta-debate", as lassegul puts it ... but once things up again, the artists would probably need as much info as they can get
[09:50] <Misosaki> nothlit: Maybe these are some of the things that all the artists will have to be aware of.
[09:51] <Misosaki> If they decide they want to help with the default theme.
[09:51] <Misosaki> Apparently there's a slight split between default and the rest of the package. It's the default that people (naturally) get worked up over.
[09:53] <Misosaki> Just throwing bits and suggestions out there until Tues
[10:10] <_MMA_> kwwii: Looks like one got through: "[ubuntu-art]  giangio wants to share sites with you..." :)
[10:14] <kwwii> _MMA_: yepp
[11:12] <nothlit`alpha> kwwii: is the jpg issue a freedom thing or a legal thing?
[11:12] <kwwii> nothlit: beleive it or not it is a technical issue
[11:13] <kwwii> ubuntu has relied upon always using the same name for the default wallpaper so that it gets updated correctly and it is too late to change that
[11:13] <kwwii> I did not realize that when I submitted my package the other day and found at this morning when they converted the jpg back to png and due to the filesize removed the elephant pic
[11:14] <kwwii> naturally, I flipped out
[11:14] <kwwii> so now the elephant pic is back in but there is 0 space left for a bigger png file
[11:14] <nothlit`alpha> gnome uses file analysis, even if you label it a png it should work
[11:14] <kwwii> nothlit`alpha: hrm, I can talk to dholbach and others about that tomorrow
[11:29] <lassegul> Misosaki: I am in no place to dictate what the meeting should be about and isnt. I probably should have put that better. But my thought on the matter is that this would not be the online meeting we would have, but a first initial meeting. For it I thought that "Lets take first things first", lets move on from the mess we have today with all the screaming and yelling, and get a shared understanding on the team on how this is going to work the next 6 m
[11:30] <lassegul> Misosaki: *s/and isnt/not be about/
[11:31] <lassegul> the cough medicine is troubling my writing skills :S
[11:31] <Misosaki> lassegul: nods Whatever direction the meeting takes
[11:32] <lassegul> oh my god, that sentence was so bad im just going to write it again.
[11:32] <lassegul> summary: This should not be the only meeting we have, lets take first things first, get process straight.
[11:33] <lassegul> of course we must deal with other pressing matters if there are any. Im sure kwwii will make sure that will be included as well.
[11:34] <kwwii> in this meeting I would like to discuss:
[11:35] <kwwii> coordinating information between the company, wiki, mailing list, and forum
[11:35] <Misosaki> Not going to be particular about the upcoming meeting here ... I'm just glad that there will be a meeting (or a series of meetings)
[11:35] <kwwii> defining a process for contributions
[11:35] <Misosaki> *at all
[11:36] <kwwii> defining the decision making process
[11:36] <kwwii> defining the fules for creating a wallpaper
[11:36] <kwwii> defining concise design ideas for Hardy
[11:36] <kwwii> defining a palette for Hardy
[11:36] <kwwii> and explaining exactly what we want to change for Hardy (everything, basically)
[11:37] <kwwii> have I missed something?
[11:37] <lassegul> long meeting then :)
[11:39] <lassegul> I dont know. I was thinking something like, how do we make an active community, but we can also save that for later.
[11:39] <lassegul> i dont know with you guys but the summary in my head says that much of the trouble in this release was because of too few contributions.
[11:40] <kwwii> lassegul: as far as I can see, if we define everything in clear statements that everyone can get a hold of and continue to allow all sides to communicate people will contribute if they feel like it
[11:40] <kwwii> lassegul: there were many more contributions than in the recent past
[11:41] <lassegul> kwwii: that sounds good.
[11:41] <kwwii> the biggest problem in my eyes is that there are simpy far too few good artists which are willing to work on open source projects
[11:42] <lassegul> kwwii: are any of these good artists on the mailing list?
[11:43] <lassegul> kwwii: because my experience with getting people active, the best way to do that can often be to ask: "What will make you active?"
[11:43] <kwwii> the ones that already contribute are on the list and read the wiki, the ones that we do not know about still need to be found
[11:44] <lassegul> i see. so there probably wont be any "sleepers" attending the meeting?
[11:44] <kwwii> in ten years working on linux I have only met around 10 really good artists
[11:45] <dmccal1> A more accessible method to contribute would do well, I think. Could be as simple as some wiki templates and a single address to go to, where one can dump media such as icons and sounds -- and not just on a single mishmash "ideas" page. I am looking from the outside in here, and the trouble is that I see no single door to walk through.
[11:45] <kwwii> there is a difference between someone who likes to doodle and can put something together and someone who can work under strict rules and still accomplish something decent
[11:45] <kwwii> dmccal1: good point, adding that to the list
[11:45] <lassegul> i tend to agree with dmccall here
[11:46] <Misosaki> Agreed
[11:46] <dmccal1> Not that it's difficult after figuring out how to contribute, but it can take quite a bit of figuring versus just dumping one's artwork on DeviantArt or the nearest photo management community
[11:46] <lassegul> but i talked for some time with lapo this morning and he was not so excited by such a project.
[11:47] <nothlit> he dislikes the idea of branding icons at all
[11:47] <nothlit> understandably, as a tango member hes working toward unity completeness and integration
[11:49] <lassegul> dmccal1: is what you are talking about some simplified version of the same system that gnome-look.org uses? Because thats really easy.
[11:49] <kwwii> perhaps it would be better for us to leave out the specific artwork stuff for Hardy until the next meeting
[11:49] <kwwii> and just discuss the improvements in the process first
[11:49] <andreasn> hey dudes, when's the meeting? can I attend and stuff?
[11:49] <kwwii> I mean, until we have a decent process there is little point in discussing the finer points
[11:49] <nothlit> lassegul: we'll need to find developers and a server for that stuff
[11:50] <kwwii> andreasn: damn, we were trying to keep it secret :p
[11:50] <nothlit> andreasn: tuesday, 1700 UTC <-- time zone!
[11:50] <lassegul> nothlit: yeah, you asked yesterday what happened to art.ubuntu.com
[11:50] <lassegul> nothlit: did you get an answer?
[11:50] <nothlit> its funny, some of the stuff when it was online-- it was actually password locked
[11:50] <nothlit> peoples ubuntu art albums
[11:50] <andreasn> nothlit: next tuesday then?
[11:51] <lassegul> and what was art.ubuntu.com again? I cant remember.
[11:51] <nothlit> andreasn: yeah
[11:51] <nothlit> it was a gallery of contributed ubuntu art
[11:51] <nothlit> some of it was not bad
[11:51] <andreasn> kwwii: hehe
[11:51] <lassegul> nothlit: but the infrastructure how was that?
[11:52] <nothlit> lassegul: it was an ubuntu branded gallery, i don't think there was voting or comments though
[11:52] <nothlit> although any image gallery php application can handle that sort of stuff
[11:52] <lassegul> nothlit: remember we dont need voting
[11:52] <nothlit> sorry, i meant rating*
[11:52] <kwwii> voting is not necessary or helpful
[11:52] <Misosaki> What's wrong with the current wiki system?
[11:52] <dmccal1> Indeed, voting is too simple -- especially when the submitted image can be edited
[11:52] <nothlit> Misosaki: people need to learn wikis, and its more for documents than images
[11:53] <kwwii> if the process is not democratic there is no point in voting or rating
[11:53] <lassegul> nothlit: how about something very similar to art.gnome.org  without the rating
[11:53] <nothlit> Misosaki: and comments are splashed everywhere, and people need to register for launchpad, which actually takes some figuring out first because some of the wiki pages suggest it has its own registration system
[11:54] <Misosaki> nothlit: Ah
[11:54] <Misosaki> Not sure how helpful voting might be ... comments would be much more useful
[11:54] <kwwii> Misosaki: exactly
[11:54] <lassegul> yeah, looking at it now, art.gnome.org looks exactly like a system we could use. simple, straight forward. Do we have the resources to get such a thing up and running kwwii
[11:54] <kwwii> having a way to post your work and get comments from people
[11:55] <kwwii> lassegul: the guy behind the *-look sites is a good friend, I could talk to him
[11:55] <lassegul> nothlit: and btw we dont need rating either, just comments.
[11:55] <kwwii> but no, there are no official resources for that kind of thing
[11:55] <lassegul> kwwii: *-look is much too advanced though.
[11:55] <lassegul> overkill
[11:56] <kwwii> personally I think that the wiki is enough, but if people feel the need a stripped down version of the *-look site would be ok I guess
[11:56] <nothlit> lassegul: the art team seems to used to have two servers https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoHosting?highlight=%28art.ubuntu.com%29
[11:56] <Misosaki> Maybe a main page with all the relevant links: divide the icons, walls, etc.
[11:56] <kwwii> I am somewhat worried about spreading this information too thinly though
[11:57] <Misosaki> Hi damianvila
[11:57] <kwwii> irc, wiki and mailing list seem like enough to me
[11:57] <damianvila> Hi people
[11:57] <damianvila> I was looking for Cory
[11:57] <nothlit> people complained about transparency though
[11:57] <lassegul> kwwii: can we abandon the wiki?
[11:57] <kwwii> lassegul: I seriously doubt that
[11:57] <nothlit> especially irc and mailing list
[11:58] <kwwii> nothlit: but after looking at the forum comments it is clear that people ignore the mailing list and wiki
[11:58] <damianvila> _MMA_: are you there?
[11:58] <nothlit> damianvila: hes _MMA_
[11:58] <kwwii> then again, people will ignore something else if we do that too
[11:58] <kwwii> ignoring things is easy
[11:58] <kwwii> :p
[11:58] <Misosaki> What might end up happening is a mix/match thing - taking something x from icons and y from walls ... so as the new work comes in, there might be a way to visualise combinations of designs
[11:59] <nothlit> i think if we had a dedicated art interface like the theme sites there could be no complaints
[11:59] <kwwii> Misosaki: yes, that was my idea as well
[11:59] <lassegul> kwwii: think about it. people are used to sites like art.gnome.org and *-look.org, a wiki is a whole other system, many people have never used this.
[11:59] <nothlit> they think of the wiki as a working system only for those participating
[11:59] <nothlit> a gallery is something more accessible
[11:59] <kwwii> in order to sell this whole new idea to sabdfl and others we will need to make mockups showing how the whole desktop experience could be
[12:00] <lassegul> kwwii: you mean mockups of the possible gallery?
[12:00] <kwwii> one of the biggest problems until now is that one person offers up their one piece of work which does not fit with the rest and expects someone else to come along and finish off the other 90%
[12:00] <kwwii> lassegul: no, mockups of the interfaces of the OS
[12:00] <Misosaki> Will it be possible to have the gallery system integrated to regular forum registration, or will people have to register again to comment?
[12:00] <lassegul> kwwii: lots of thing going on at once.
[12:01] <kwwii> lassegul: just wait till the meeting
[12:01] <kwwii> it'll be worse, I promise
[12:01] <nothlit> Misosaki: not unless we get the forum admins into this
[12:01] <_MMA_> damianvila: Im here.
[12:01] <lassegul> damn havent thought about that yet. need some kind of bullet-time device then :)
[12:01] <damianvila> Uh! OK :-)
[12:01] <kwwii> troy_s: I hope that you will find time to attend the meeting as well?
[12:01] <nothlit> Misosaki: that is quite ambitious in terms of the technical side, which we don't much have
[12:02] <nothlit> Misosaki: i'd think only submitters would need to register, and commenters could just leave messages anonymously
[12:03] <kwwii> nothlit: I think that such a plan would attract too much spam
[12:03] <Misosaki> kwwii: Well, that depends on approach to the process: does everyone work on one aspect of the visuals at a time, or will everything be on the roll at the same time?
[12:03] <nothlit> mockups are definitely the most important thing, but how many resources do we have in terms of metacity/gtk/gdm themers?
[12:04] <lassegul> ok, ill make a mockup of such a gallery. ill be back in 5
[12:04] <Misosaki> nothlit: Yeah
[12:04] <kwwii> Misosaki: until now it has been the case that everyone goes in their own direction and does whatever they want pretty much ignoring anything
[12:05] <kwwii> nothlit: if we can show good ideas we can get it coded (within reason)
[12:05] <nothlit> Misosaki: well, the meeting participants would probably define the look, potentially in mockups, and then it'll probably just be up to working style/talents/ and how integrated everything is
[12:05] <kwwii> much like the icons, i know that I can hire artists to work on this once we convince the right people of our ideas
[12:05] <Misosaki> kwwii: Yeah ... it's just that (obviously) aspects of the visuals don't stand alone ... icons can affect wallpaper, desktop affects gdm etc.
[12:06] <kwwii> Misosaki: definitely, I think that this will always be a problem for us...as you suggested, making definite rules might help this
[12:06] <Misosaki> So if everyone had something to work with from the start, then it's more likely that the work that comes next will move in the "right" direction
[12:07] <kwwii> yes,  I think so, but time will tell how well that works out
[12:08] <nothlit> in order to get the entire community working in the same direction, we'll definitely need guidelines and examples as clear as tango
[12:08] <Misosaki> nothlit: nods ... though the likelihood of that integration will depend on how much there is to start with
[12:08] <Misosaki> nothlit: Exactly
[12:08] <kwwii> nothlit: I was kinda hoping to use tango as the basis and go from there
[12:08] <kwwii> for the icons, I mean
[12:09] <kwwii> for the rest, I will define clear rules and exact things that we want
[12:09] <_MMA_> damianvila: Did you need something?
[12:09] <kwwii> like a palette, etc
[12:09] <damianvila> _MMA_: just wanted to talk about Studio...
[12:10] <_MMA_> Ok.
[12:10] <_MMA_> Here, PM, #ubuntustudio, whereever.
[12:10] <damianvila> _MMA_: OK, going there :-)
[12:12] <andreasn> kwwii: regarding all the flames about the default background. If there is any comfort, I went through the same thing a couple of weeks ago when we had to decide on the default background for gnome (that every distro apart from debian and maybe freebsd replaces with their own thing)
[12:13] <kwwii> andreasn: I feel your pain
[12:13] <kwwii> luckily we have no such problems with KDE...kinda amazing in that respect
[12:14] <andreasn> kwwii: well, this was even for a background that only becomes the default if you compile stuff from source and isn't visible on any on the big distros
[12:14] <kwwii> looking back at working for SUSE all those years I realize how lucky I was to not have to deal with the community :p
[12:14] <andreasn> hehe
[12:14] <kwwii> andreasn: those are the people who are truly religous about it - I can imagine that they complain the most
[12:14] <andreasn> well, it was mostly two dudes that kept bringing it up to discussion again and again
[12:15] <andreasn> + the random blog posters
[12:15] <kwwii> andreasn: that is pretty much the case here as well...two people stirring up dissent
[12:15] <kwwii> just post a few very sarcastic remarks and see how many others join in the cry
[12:16] <andreasn> I mean, it's like the easiest thing to change on a system, and most people are just going to put a picture of their dog there instead
[12:16] <kwwii> the more open we try to be, the more this will happen, I think
[12:16] <dmccal1> Regarding getting art to fit together more... Some day (eventually), there could be a means of quickly installing icons and backgrounds from the Ubuntu art site, perhaps based on project tags. That way, independent artists could more easily be working in the same environment they are building upon without having to wait for the repos or go through the mailing lists first.
[12:17] <kwwii> yeah, just look at the polls of people who actually keep the default artwork...it is in single digits, percentage-wise
[12:17] <kwwii> dmccal1: we made an automated artwork builder so that people could make their own packages...I spent a couple of days writing documentation and exactly 0 people have used it thus far
[12:18] <dmccal1> kwwii: Ah :/
[12:18] <nothlit> lol
[12:19] <andreasn> nothlit: the one in 2.20 with the macro palm leaf?
[12:19] <nothlit> andreasn: no, arch hasn't got 2.20 out of testing yet i'm afraid
[12:19] <kwwii> andreasn: that one!?! oh man I HATE IT :p
[12:19] <kwwii> lol
[12:19] <andreasn> kwwii: yeah, me too ;)
[12:20] <andreasn> hahaha
[12:20] <kwwii> I think it should be brown
[12:20] <kwwii> and pink
[12:20] <kwwii> with a bit of magenta
[12:20] <andreasn> using more pink by default would be kind of interesting
[12:20] <kwwii> but nobody ever listens to me
[12:20] <kwwii> think i will post that to a forum somwhere, perhaps make a poll as well
[12:20] <andreasn> would probably make more installs for teenage girls
[12:21] <kwwii> I was tempted to replace the default artwork for the beta with ponies
[12:21] <andreasn> haah
[12:21] <kwwii> http://mattmendoza.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/twilight_440_2c.jpg
[12:22] <andreasn> ooh, that's kind of nice
[12:22] <Misosaki> lols kwwii
[12:22] <kwwii> but someone might take that the wrong way
[12:22] <kwwii> god forbid I give people more reason to bitch
[12:22] <Misosaki> It's naked :|
[12:22] <Misosaki> ;)
[12:23] <kwwii> Misosaki: lol, no doubt that would be the first complaint
[12:23] <kwwii> omg! naked animals?
[12:23] <kwwii> you cannot be serious
[12:23] <kwwii> it is against my religion
[12:24] <kwwii> if I still have this job in January I am going to start a new, privately funded calender
[12:24] <kwwii> what better way to relieve stress than taking pictures of naked people
[12:24] <nothlit> i wonder why the wallpapers used to use naked people instead of clothed children
[12:25] <kwwii> dude, it is much easier to take pics of naked people than it is to take them of children
[12:25] <kwwii> and someone somewhere would say that it promotes child porn, no matter what you do
[12:25] <kwwii> on top of that, it is really hard to find children who are models
[12:25] <kwwii> whereas it is really easy to find adults who will get naked for money
[12:26] <nothlit> LOL
[12:26] <andreasn> what about candy then?
[12:26] <kwwii> :p
[12:26] <andreasn> ugh, I guess it's kind of bad to joke about these things, I think I'll stop here
[12:26] <Misosaki> lol