[01:10] <pkern> ScottK: RCPT TO:<obby-announce@list.0x539.de>
[01:10] <pkern> ScottK: Oops. \:
[01:10] <pkern> ScottK: http://ubuntu-tutorials.com/2007/09/26/how-to-install-vmware-server-on-ubuntu-710/
[02:39] <bsnider> when exactly is gutsy beta 1 being released? is it laster tonight or some time tomorrow?
[02:41] <therethinker> They will release it as soon as you leave town for a week ;-)
[02:41] <gnomefreak> bsnider: thursday or friday UTC
[02:41] <therethinker> Away from the internets
[02:41] <bsnider> how stable is it right now?
[02:42] <gnomefreak> bsnider: its not hence the work alpha/beta
[02:42] <gnomefreak> s/work/word
[02:42] <gnomefreak> its more stable than the tribes before now
[02:43] <bsnider> the livecd seemed ok as of a couple of days ago
[02:43] <TheMuso> I haven't seen an announce for it yet.
[02:51] <imbrandon> moins
[02:52] <TheMuso> Hey imbrandon.
[02:55] <bddebian> Heya gang
[03:08] <ScottK> heya bddebian.
[03:08] <bddebian> Hi ScottK
[03:22] <bddebian> Frick', I'm so demotivated
[03:22] <StevenK> Does that help?
[03:35] <bddebian> StevenK: Sure, thanks :-)
[03:35] <bddebian> StevenK: Now, how to get me a brain?
[03:46] <bddebian> Why Wizard of Oz?  "If I only had a brain.." type of thing?
[03:47] <StevenK> bddebian: Yes.
[03:47] <bddebian> Heh
[03:47] <bddebian> Oh, did you have any luck with the libapache-asp-foo thing last night?
[03:55] <StevenK> I stopped looking. I was going to dig again this afternoon.
[03:55] <StevenK> It's still in my todo list.
[04:02] <meteorman> anyone see me?
[04:03] <_MMA_> no
[04:04] <meteorman> oh, good, thought the cloaking device stopped functiong..
[04:04] <meteorman> lol
[04:06] <meteorman> so, does everyone here have private chats going?
[04:08] <ajmitch> impatient
[04:09] <ajmitch> hello jml
[04:09] <jml> ajmitch: hi ho
[04:10] <bddebian> ajmitch: !
[04:12] <ajmitch> bddebian: yes?
[04:18] <bddebian> ajmitch: Just an enthusiastic Hi :-)
[04:20] <ajmitch> ok
[04:20] <ajmitch> hello
[04:34] <bddebian> ajmitch: SHould Bug #104616 be fix released?  You said you uploaded it to debian but I don't see any updates in Debian or Ubuntu
[04:34] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 104616 in gnue-appserver "[apport]  gnue-appserver crashed with ImportError in <module>()" [High,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/104616
[05:04] <bddebian> Gah, who the hell keeps marking all these bugs as Fix Comitted when they aren't..
[05:05] <RAOF> bddebian: Any in particular?  Tracker seems to be a mass of "fix comitted, because it's fixed in SVN" bugs.
[05:05] <pwnguin> committed isnt released
[05:05] <bddebian> The fixes are not committed if it's not in the repos afai am concerned
[05:05] <pwnguin> but id always figured it meant fix uploaded
[05:06] <bddebian> Right
[05:06] <pwnguin> repos?
[05:06] <pwnguin> if its apt-gettable its released
[05:06] <RAOF> Yes, that's my understanign of what it means too.
[05:06] <bddebian> Ubuntu repositories.  If its in svn but not Ubuntu it ain't fix committed to me
[05:06] <TheMuso> IMO fix released means built successfully, but it seems others think otherwise, i.e when using a bug number in a changelog.
[05:07] <bddebian> Well that's a whole different issue :-)
[05:07] <TheMuso> causes a bug to have a fix released change.
[05:09] <bddebian> OMFG I give up
[05:09] <RAOF> bddebian: if it's any consolation, I don't think anyone likes that fix comitted meaning.
[05:10] <bddebian> It was fine when it meant it was uploaded to Ubuntu.  I don't know who keeps moving the meanings of everything anymore
[05:12] <RAOF> AFAIK, that usage is actively incorrect, and it doesn't mean what the changer thinks it means.
[05:12] <pwnguin> i thought lp autoupdated that stuff
[05:12] <RAOF> Like "inconcievable"
[05:12] <pwnguin> what?
[05:12] <pwnguin> i guess
[05:12] <RAOF> </princess bride>
[05:15] <StevenK> RAOF: :-)
[05:16] <Amaranth> RAOF: did laserjock ask you for an interview right after you joined too?
[05:16] <RAOF> Amaranth: No, he hasn't.  Not yet, at least.
[05:16] <Amaranth> RAOF: huh
[05:16] <RAOF> Amaranth: You're just special.
[05:16] <Amaranth> Now that is surprising
[05:17] <RAOF> Amaranth: Possibly as the person most likely to be thought to be already a MOTU.
[05:18] <RAOF> .au & .nz just aren't interesting, apparently.
[05:18] <Amaranth> TheMuso: Hey, that reminds me, you're an a11y guy, right?
[05:18] <RAOF> bddebian: Shush!
[05:19] <TheMuso> Amaranth: Yes indeed. If I am not mistaken, you dropped into #orca on gimpnet the other day did you not?
[05:20] <Amaranth> TheMuso: I did
[05:20] <Amaranth> TheMuso: I need to make compiz talk
[05:20] <TheMuso> Amaranth: As in the window manager part of things?
[05:21] <Amaranth> TheMuso: apparently just using pango is not enough and i really don't want to subclass atk
[05:21] <TheMuso> Amaranth: The only thing I can suggest is to see how metacity does it.
[05:21] <Amaranth> TheMuso: alt-tab and such
[05:21] <Amaranth> TheMuso: I think they use a GtkLabel
[05:21] <TheMuso> Amaranth: Well unfortunately I am not entirely up on how the infrastructure works within GNOME.
[05:21] <TheMuso> I am more an integration/end-user perspecitve person at this point.
[05:21] <Amaranth> We use pango, snag the cairo context from pango, render it into a texture, and paint that on the screen
[05:22] <Amaranth> TheMuso: does orca crash and take the app it's speaking with it on gutsy for you too? :)
[05:22] <Amaranth> well, not crash, freeze
[05:22] <TheMuso> Amaranth: Occasionally, yes. This is with metacity.
[05:22] <Amaranth> Does it every 5-15 minutes here
[05:23] <Amaranth> killing orca unfreezes the app
[05:23] <TheMuso> Yep, same here.
[05:23] <TheMuso> I don't think it happens that often for me, but it does happen.
[05:24] <TheMuso> Usually close to the beginning of my session. Once its been started another time, it doesn't usually happen till I next log out/in.
[05:24] <TheMuso> And today at least, its only been once, and that was early this morning. My session has been running for almost 5 hours now.
[05:25] <StevenK> Yay, Amaranth might fix my bug
[05:25] <Amaranth> it's funny, everyone always complains about metacity's code
[05:25] <TheMuso> Amaranth: Is it a metacity problem?
[05:25] <Amaranth> no no
[05:25] <Amaranth> i just like reading metacity's code
[05:25] <Amaranth> well, the recent additions to it, anyway
[05:26] <TheMuso> right
[05:26] <TheMuso> I've never tried compiz + orca actually.
[05:26] <Amaranth> the core window management stuff is a mess, the alt-tab popup, window placement algorithm, edge detection, etc code is all very nice and easy to follow
[05:26] <TheMuso> The window titles/alt tab doesn't speak more than likely however.
[05:26] <Amaranth> TheMuso: window titles are fine, that's libmetacity
[05:26] <TheMuso> Amaranth: Right.
[05:27] <TheMuso> Amaranth: As it is, it would be nice to actually get this fixed at some point, as Orca may end up using the new ezoom plugin that was done as a soc project.
[05:27] <TheMuso> at some point in the future.
[05:27] <TheMuso> for magnification.
[05:28] <Amaranth> right metacity uses a GtkLabel and pulls the Atk context out of it to do further tweaking
[05:28] <Amaranth> i wonder if i can fake it
[05:28] <Amaranth> put a GtkLabel somewhere invisible
[05:31] <ajmitch> StevenK: why would you do that?
[05:31] <StevenK> Amaranth: Does compiz already link against libgtk? Because adding a GtkLabel would make you grow one.
[05:31] <TheMuso> Amaranth: I gather that thats a bad way to code it?
[05:31] <Amaranth> StevenK: gtk-window-decorator draws the switcher
[05:31] <TheMuso> Amaranth: as in what you said about what metacity does
[05:31] <Amaranth> TheMuso: indeed
[05:32] <StevenK> ajmitch: We are just about to release beta, and he privately mailed me asking me to put the RC of gimp in.
[05:32] <ajmitch> ah, why would he mail you?
[05:32] <StevenK> Amaranth: Ah, that's alright then.
[05:32] <ajmitch> that's just a bit mad
[05:32] <StevenK> ajmitch: Because I did the upload of rc1
[05:32] <TheMuso> Amaranth: fun.
[05:33] <ajmitch> he was promising someone in here earlier that the final release of the gimp would make it into gutsy
[05:33] <Amaranth> uh, ha?
[05:33] <bddebian> Heh
[05:33] <StevenK> Really?
[05:33] <ajmitch> 08:40 < so1> will gimp stay at rc2 or will it be updated when the final will be released?
[05:33] <StevenK> That's very interesting, because I don't think it will.
[05:33] <TheMuso> I think kmos has ruffled the feathers of all who are present. :)
[05:33] <ajmitch> 08:53 < Kmos> so1: it will be updated
[05:33] <ajmitch> 08:54 < Kmos> until gutsy final version
[05:33] <ajmitch> 08:54 < Kmos> i'm pretty sure =)
[05:34] <ajmitch> TheMuso: nah, he couldn't do that :)
[05:34] <ajmitch> 09:08 < ScottK> so1: Just in case you can't tell, Kmos really has no idea if it'll be updated or not.  Neither do I.
[05:34] <TheMuso> ajmitch: Oh I forgot, of course he couldn't. He reads all docs and processes, and follows the rules. :)
[05:35] <ajmitch> heh
[05:36] <ScottK> Ruffled feathers is a VERY mild way of putting it.
[05:37] <Amaranth> can probably get another release of gimp in, along with the general desktop exception for 2.20.1
[05:38] <Amaranth> but if the final isn't out when gnome 2.20.1 is...
[05:38] <StevenK> Amaranth: That's what I'm guessing - I'm happy to jump to rc3 if seb128 is okay with it
[05:45] <ScottK> Speaking of GIMP, I'd like a 2nd opinion on if I was correct to attribute this bug to gimp-python?
[05:45] <ScottK> Bug 145376
[05:45] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 145376 in gimp "[apport]  sphere.py crashed with ImportError in <module>()" [Medium,Triaged]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145376
[05:50] <TheMuso> Oh lovely. Examining a package from the rc bugs list, which generates its debian/packagename.install file at build time.
[05:52] <bddebian> Lucky you :-)
[05:54] <TheMuso> Oh yeah.
[06:12] <TheMuso> ScottK: You might want to take a look at codespeak-lib on the rc bugs list. The Debian bug is resolved by commenting out a command that seems to work on i386, but not on ppc, and the builds reflect that for the Ubuntu version. I'm wondering if the issue can be fixed a better way...
[06:12] <TheMuso> I could apply the fix from Debian, but it doesn't seem logical to me, commenting out something that clearly includes useful material in the package.
[06:18] <ScottK> Can you make the call arch specific?
[06:23] <TheMuso> ScottK: Yes, I was thinking of that, but thought a better solution may be possible, and since as far as I know, you are good with python, I'd thought I would ask you.
[06:24] <ScottK> TheMuso: I didn't realize it was python from the name.
[06:24] <RAOF> Is there any *particular* reason we have a clearlooks-engine package, last touched in hoary, in Universe?
[06:25] <ScottK> No one cared enough to write the removal bug?
[06:25] <TheMuso> ScottK: Yeah it creates a python- binary package name.
[06:25] <ScottK> Is it hurting anything?
[06:25] <ScottK> TheMuso: Is codespeak-lib the source package name then?
[06:25] <RAOF> ScottK: Not really, as far as I can tell.
[06:27] <bddebian> Gnight folks
[06:27] <Amaranth> RAOF: I can't find that
[06:28] <RAOF> Amaranth: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/clearlooks-engine/
[06:29] <Amaranth> RAOF: apparently it doesn't (never) built?
[06:29] <TheMuso> ScottK: yes
[06:29] <RAOF> Amaranth: No, builds successfully on all but lpia according to LP
[06:31] <Amaranth> RAOF: but the binary was overrided by the gtk2-engines source package
[06:31] <RAOF> Yes.
[06:31] <Amaranth> so there is no binary package for clearlooks-engine in Ubuntu
[06:31] <Amaranth> No wonder no one noticed it :P
[06:32] <ScottK> Sounds like a good candidate for removal then.
[06:32] <ScottK> TheMuso: I'll have a look in a minute.
[06:33] <RAOF> Yeah.  Filing the removal bug now.
[06:34] <RAOF> In fact, it's doubly obsolete; there was a clearlooks package, too, that got removed in dapper.
[06:35] <Amaranth> wow
[06:35] <TheMuso> ScottK: No hurry, but I thought you may be able to work out a better solution.
[06:36] <ScottK> It's after midnight here.  I'll look at it tonight if I get this package I'm working on done before I run out of steam.  Otherwise I'll probably forget.
[06:38] <TheMuso> ScottK: It only FTBFS on powerpc, for the reason I explained above, so if not, I just might make it arch specific on top of how it was fixed in Debian.
[06:44] <ScottK> Theq
[06:44] <ScottK> TheMuso: Have a look at Debian bug 439400.  Is it worth it?
[06:44] <ubotu> Debian bug 439400 in wnpp "RFA: codespeak-lib -- The pylib library containing py.test, greenlets and other niceties" [Normal,Open]  http://bugs.debian.org/439400
[06:45] <TheMuso> ScottK: Thats the bug I was referring to...
[06:45] <ScottK> The request for adoption?
[06:46] <TheMuso> ScottK: Well it FTBFS on powerpc only, and since I have that arch, I can look at it.
[06:46] <TheMuso> I didn't see that.
[06:46] <ScottK> Is it a package you are interested in generally?
[06:46] <ScottK> Maybe you want to adopt it?
[06:47] <TheMuso> ScottK: No, I was just going through the rc list.
[06:47] <ScottK> OK
[06:48] <TheMuso> Meh probably worth leaving it. It will be synced next cycle, and only ppc misses out.
[06:50] <ScottK> TheMuso: WIthout the details of what it died on in the build (which aren't in the bug), there's really no way for me to come up with a better solution.
[06:51] <TheMuso> ScottK: As I said, it will be synced next cycle.
[06:56] <ScottK> I made a new package, built, tested it and added it to the Debian Python Modules Team repo for sponsorship in an hour.  That's kind of cool.
[06:56] <ScottK> he says to himself idly ...
[06:58] <TheMuso> Is it just me, or is the rc bugs list not showing comments fields for all packages?
[07:00] <ScottK> It's a python datatype for CIDR matching.  Which, if you need to do CIDR matching seem like it would be handy.
[07:00] <ScottK> TheMuso: If it's got a comment field under Serious, it won't have it again under Grave if it's in both.
[07:00] <TheMuso> ah ok
[07:01] <ScottK> If that's what you are seeing, I believe it's by design.
[07:02] <ajmitch> due to incompetence of author
[07:03] <TheMuso> ajmitch: It makes sense actually.
[07:04] <ajmitch> I've had requests to change it to comments per bug
[07:06] <TheMuso> ajmitch: I can understand people's thoughts on that, but still seems fine to me now I know how its set up.
[07:07] <ajmitch> what needs fixed on it?
[07:07] <ScottK> ajmitch: If you were going to change it, I'd put the grave bugs at the top so comments go next to those.
[07:09] <ScottK> StevenK: If you are going to look at updating GIMP, I'd appreciate it if you consider Bug 145376 when you do so.
[07:09] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 145376 in gimp "[apport]  sphere.py crashed with ImportError in <module>()" [Medium,Triaged]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145376
[07:10] <ajmitch> ScottK: ok, done
[07:10] <ScottK> ajmitch: Cool.  Thanks.
[07:11] <ScottK> I see we lost the URL to that page out of /topic.
[07:11] <ScottK> ajmitch: What's the URL again?
[07:11] <ScottK> Sorry.
[07:12] <ScottK> bddebian's gone to bed so I have to be hopeless now.
[07:12] <ajmitch> django.ajmitch.net.nz/rcbugs
[07:12] <TheMuso> Its on wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO
[07:12] <ScottK> Thanks.
[07:12] <ajmitch> initially setup just as a test, but then it stuck
[07:12] <ajmitch> so I can't easily change URL now
[07:15] <lifeless> lol
[07:17] <ajmitch> afternoon lifeless
[07:18] <RAOF> Good afternoon lifeless
[07:19] <lifeless> hi guys
[07:19] <ajmitch> maybe I can get something like motu.ubuntu.org.nz
[07:20] <TheMuso> heh
[07:20] <ajmitch> well I see that catalyst registered ubuntu.org.nz a couple of years ago
[07:21] <ajmitch> and the current loco coordinators happen to work at catalyst...
[07:22] <ScottK> Anyone doinb websvn off the RC list?
[07:22] <ScottK> doind/doing
[07:22] <ScottK> If not, I'll get it....
[07:22] <ajmitch> maybe I can convince them for server space as well
[07:31] <ScottK> If a package depends on php5 | php4 do I need to merge it or can I leave it?
[07:32] <ScottK> ajmitch: ^^^?
[07:34] <soren> ScottK: As in what? Remove php4?
[07:34] <ScottK> soren: Yes.  Do I need to remove the option to depend on php4 or can I leave it (it's a sync otherwise)?
[07:34] <soren> ScottK: Just leave it.
[07:34] <ScottK> OK.  THanks
[07:35] <soren> :)
[07:35] <TheMuso> Hey dholbach.
[07:35] <dholbach> good morning
[07:35] <dholbach> hey TheMuso
[07:38] <ScottK> websvn is done.
[07:38] <ScottK> Good morning dholbach
[07:40] <dholbach> hey ScottK
[07:40] <dholbach> ScottK: good night :)
[07:40] <ScottK> Hy.
[07:40] <ScottK> Hey even
[07:42] <ScottK> Hobbsee: If you are wanting to raise your blood pressure you might grep through LongPointyStick's logs and see what fun Kmos has been up to while you were away.
[07:43] <ScottK> Good afternoon too Hobbsee.
[07:43] <Hobbsee> ScottK: urgh.
[07:43] <Hobbsee> ScottK: what's he done?
[07:44] <ScottK> No, the problem isn't volume this time
[07:44] <ScottK> Just promising people that the final GIMP would make Gutsy and then emailing StevenK to ask him to make sure it did.
[07:44] <Hobbsee> oh yay...
[07:45] <ScottK> The only progress I'm noticing is the reduction in volume.  I'm still not detecting and increased (or extant) clue factor.
[07:45] <dholbach> he shouldn't have promised it, but the release team should at least review the upgrade to rc3
[07:45] <Hobbsee> dholbach: i'm sure we will, but him peskering about will only make it slower, not quicker
[07:46] <ScottK> dholbach: Agreed, but he's raising people's expectation on stuff he's no idea about and distracting people from getting work done.
[07:46] <dholbach> right
[07:46] <Hobbsee> ScottK: well, then everyone will know that he's on crack.  which may not be bad.
[07:47] <ScottK> Well the person in question was someone I don't recall seeing active here before.  He's not the first impression we want to make.
[07:47] <dholbach> I'll talk to him
[07:47] <Hobbsee> ScottK: true, but until people like dholbach and jono feel like chucking him out, rather than speaking to him and attempting to make him more clueful, we're stuck with his misinformation.
[07:48] <ScottK> Right.  On my list of reasons for spending less time on Ubuntu after Gutsy releases.
[07:48] <dholbach> come on now
[07:48] <StevenK> I'm happy to look at rc3, I'd just prefer not to get Kmos mailing me saying "Debian already has it =)"
[07:48] <dholbach> he's not wreaking havoc
[07:48] <dholbach> and we had people badger us about new versions of *whatever* before
[07:48] <ScottK> dholbach: I think the entire situation with him has been very poorly handled from the perspective of allowing us to get actual work done.
[07:49] <dholbach> what do you think how many mails seb128 got about the newest pidgin etc?
[07:49] <ScottK> dholbach: I don't mean today, I mean in general.
[07:49] <StevenK> dholbach: The fact he mailed me isn't the problem - the fact that he told someone that GIMP 2.4 final would be in Gutsy is.
[07:49] <dholbach> I'll talk to him
[07:50] <dholbach> so you're saying is: remove him from the community, else I'll do less for Ubuntu?
[07:51] <Hobbsee> dholbach: yes, but it's kmos.
[07:51] <dholbach> how many people that have trouble understanding what we do will we face when MOTU gets more mainstream?
[07:51] <Hobbsee> dholbach: sorry?
[07:52] <StevenK> Yeah, parse error
[07:52] <dholbach> I have concerns, when it comes to the point that this is 'the kmos problem'
[07:52] <dholbach> all I'm saying is: this is not the last time that somebody misunderstands what we do and how we do it
[07:53] <dholbach> and removing those people from the community is not what I call the standard way to deal with people
[07:53] <ScottK> dholbach: I understand it very clearly which is why I despair that in a case as clear as this abusive/destructive behavior is tolerated.  It's only going to get worse.
[07:53] <minghua> Isn't gimp in main?
[07:53] <ScottK> Yes
[07:53] <Hobbsee> minghua: oh yes.
[07:53] <StevenK> dholbach: Of course. But other people tend to listen.
[07:53] <ScottK> dholbach: There's a point where it's the only answer.
[07:53] <dholbach> wouldn't you agree that things have changed?
[07:53] <ajmitch> hey Hobbsee, dholbach
[07:53] <StevenK> Or better, *actually ask questions*
[07:53] <Hobbsee> my problem with this isnt the fact taht someone's misunderstood.  my problem with this is that the someone has *continually* misunderstood, and seems to be making little to no effort in actually attempting to undersatnd.
[07:53] <Hobbsee> hi ajmitch
[07:53] <ScottK> dholbach: Only the volume.
[07:54] <dholbach> I mean I'm not saying that the gimp was the right thing to do
[07:54] <Hobbsee> dholbach: sure, he's changed. he's ogne from random closing of bugs, to sync floods, to removal floods, to saying things that he has no right to promise.  he keeps changing, but it doesnt seem to be an *improvement*
[07:55] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: it wasn't a firm promise, just a 'yes' followed by "I'm pretty sure =)"
[07:55] <ScottK> Each time we say don't do X he either does X anyway or picks Y and causes more trouble.
[07:55] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: right.  i havent looked at the logs yet.
[07:55] <dholbach> do you have the bug number for that?
[07:55] <dholbach> I'll talk to him.
[07:55] <ScottK> ajmitch: He had no way to be pretty sure.
[07:55] <ScottK> dholbach: It was here on IRC.
[07:55] <dholbach> oh ok
[07:57] <dholbach> I'm not saying he did not cause a lot of trouble, but this gimp case is not really worth being outraged about it.
[07:57] <dholbach> as I said, I'll talk to him
[07:57] <ScottK> dholbach: Remember all the confusion he caused over the ddclient UVFe.  His presence just seems to make everything harder.  How much harder is a function of his activity level.
[07:57] <ajmitch> I think it's more of a cumulative thing
[07:57] <ScottK> ajmitch: Yes.
[07:57] <StevenK> Agreed.
[07:57] <ScottK> dholbach: He's way past out of 2nd chances in my book.
[07:57] <StevenK> 6th, 7th ...
[07:59] <dholbach> I'll talk to him and propose to him talking me through his changes before he does stuff
[07:59] <ScottK> So, back to my earlier point, the fact that Ubuntu appears to be willing to tolerate an effectively inifinite (I'd imagine there is a limit, but it's undiscovered as of yet) degree of destructive behavior makes it a less fun environement for me to volunteer my time in.
[07:59] <Hobbsee> dholbach: good luck.  iirc, you said that last time.
[07:59] <dholbach> Hobbsee: he's been asking me much more since then
[07:59] <Hobbsee> dholbach: still not enough, it seems.  but OK.
[08:01] <dholbach> Hobbsee: I looked at it and am waiting for an update on it
[08:02] <Hobbsee> dholbach: in all honesty, if it's a choice between using time to fix processes, and to help out other people, and to get more people into MOTU, with the mentoring, etc, vs going with kmos, and fixing every hairbrained thing that he does...i know which i'd pick.  But really, it's your call - because you'll be the one doing it.  And, of course, you'll be the one answering to Canonical about what's happened, and whether it was a good decision or
[08:02] <Hobbsee> not.
[08:05] <pwnguin> who is this kmos person?
[08:05] <dholbach> right, if you don't want to deal with him because you've spent a lot of time on his mistakes already, that's perfectly ok
[08:06] <Hobbsee> dholbach: so you're offering to deal with all his bugs on the sponsorship queue, and fix all the messes he does in here?
[08:06] <ScottK> pwnguin: You don't want to know.
[08:07] <Hobbsee> pwnguin: he's a guy who attempts to "help out" - but has a weird idea of what helping out is
[08:07] <pwnguin> well, i might want to at least know how to avoid him :)
[08:07] <pwnguin> heh
[08:07] <pwnguin> "he helps all the time. people just misunderstand his help and end up running... or burning... or dying"
[08:07] <dholbach> Hobbsee: there's nothing in the sponsoring queue of him right now
[08:07] <Hobbsee> pwnguin: he's gone from random closing of bugs, to sync floods, to removal floods, to saying things that he has no right to promise.
[08:07] <Hobbsee> dholbach: yes, for good reason.
[08:08] <Hobbsee> dholbach: he's kept his promise to not sync-flood, at least for the moment
[08:08] <dholbach> Hobbsee: but yeah, I'll ask him to work with me as a mentor
[08:08] <Hobbsee> dholbach: OK.  so we'll shunt any bugs to you, presumably?
[08:08] <TheMuso> I just deal with whatever he does as it comes.
[08:09] <TheMuso> As much as he is frustratig, I don't let it annoy me.
[08:09] <TheMuso> frustrating
[08:09] <dholbach> Hobbsee: works for me
[08:09] <TheMuso> Because if I do, then I'll get more frustrated, and then it adversly affects my work.
[08:10] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: unfortunately, at some level, i know i'm the co-head of the sponsorship queue - so i do have to make sure that people are happy with the way it works, and fix it when it doesnt.  i cant just ignore it forever.
[08:10] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: and even more unfortunately, some of that involves kmos.
[08:10] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: fine then, shunt some off to me as well if you want
[08:10] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: great!  :)
[08:11] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: I understand, and I'm sure if things from kmos get too much, I'll make suggestions where necessary, but I am doing my best to take the bad with the good.
[08:11] <ajmitch> though I'd still have to pass any UVF-related ones to you
[08:11] <dholbach> ok, I think we've talked about most points now - I'll catch him as soon as I can and keep you informed of how that goes
[08:12] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: i'm happy to delegate them too - or at least, make sure a MOTU has gone thru and checked if the changes are sane.
[08:12] <TheMuso> dholbach: I'm happy to help where I can, as I always try to give him a chance, but there are limits.
[08:12] <dholbach> yes
[08:13] <TheMuso> It could be that I'm not around enough to clean up after him or something. :p
[08:13] <TheMuso> ajmitch: Sounds sane to me.
[08:13] <ajmitch> we're going to have our hands full making sure you can upgrade from dapper or gutsy
[08:14] <StevenK> That's going to make for some fun discussions in Boston
[08:14] <TheMuso> Aye.
[08:14] <ajmitch> bug 145467 looks interesting
[08:14] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 145467 in ubuntu "compaq v3428 " [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145467
[08:14] <StevenK> A what now? :-)
[08:15] <StevenK> RAOF: Way cool.
[08:15] <RAOF> StevenK: Totally!
[08:16] <RAOF> I suspect the devmapper upgrade that just got installed.
[08:16] <StevenK> That's like having /dev/sda1 -> / and then wondering why your machine panics at boot.
[08:16] <ajmitch> unpossible
[08:17] <ajmitch> why would you want to?
[08:17] <StevenK> Because it's my last day. :-)
[08:17] <ajmitch> I see
[08:18] <pwnguin> why destroy what you can subtly own?
[08:20] <minghua> ajmitch: Which part is interesting?  The Chinese part? ;-)
[08:20] <ajmitch> minghua: yes, I can't quite make sense of it
[08:21] <minghua> ajmitch: I can.  But what should I do?  seb has said before that we should just outright close non-English bugs.
[08:22] <minghua> And if we close the bug, where should we point him to?
[08:22] <ajmitch> I thought there were (overworked) people who were translating some bugs
[08:23] <minghua> It's a pretty poor bug report anyway...
[08:23] <ajmitch> I assumed so, from the brevity of it
[08:23] <ScottK> Mark it incomplete and LP will take care of it in time....
[08:23] <minghua> Okay, let me phrase something.
[08:26] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 145467 in ubuntu "compaq v3428 " [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145467
[08:28] <ajmitch> thanks :)
[08:28] <pwnguin> you gonna play translator the whole time?
[08:28] <StevenK> Actually, a workmate just threw the text into Google, and it dealt.
[08:28] <pwnguin> heh
[08:28] <StevenK> He's about to paste it into the bug.
[08:30] <minghua> Hmm.
[08:30] <minghua> Does people really want to deal with that bug?  I can translate the report - but I honestly don't think it's worth the effort.
[08:31] <ajmitch> not enough info to be very useful there
[08:31] <minghua> I just put some words there to ask him not to submit bug reports in Chinese.
[08:31] <pwnguin> do the locos have answers queues?
[08:32] <StevenK> I saw that. I'm amused by the fact that I've managed to get 2 other people in the office looking at this bug.
[08:32] <TheMuso> heh
[08:32] <pwnguin> why?
[08:32] <pwnguin> its no more unique than the random spanish language bugs
[08:34] <minghua> IMHO Spanish speaking bug triagers should do the same thing to those bugs.
[08:35] <pwnguin> i'd be comfortable with an answers queue for other langages
[08:35] <minghua> (and then, if the bug is clear, maybe do a translation for the developers to look at)
[08:35] <pwnguin> yes
[08:37] <TheMuso> c
[08:37] <TheMuso> oops
[08:37] <pwnguin> ive got your password now!
[08:39] <TheMuso> :)
[08:39] <TheMuso> I'm not that careless
[08:41] <TheMuso> Try running ardour on mips or mipsel.
[08:42] <pwnguin> i thought they decided to move mips to a lesser priority
[08:42] <pwnguin> what runs mips anymore?
[08:42] <pwnguin> mipstations?
[08:43] <TheMuso> pwnguin: I don't know. I'm just ona debian list where a question was raised about a package not being in testing, and an answer was given, with the mips/mipsel FTBFS as the reason.
[08:43] <minghua> TheMuso: It's not oddity.  An arch is either supported or unsupported.  And if it is, a package can't entering testing if it's not up-to-date on that arch.
[08:43] <ScottK> Any other way would lead to insanity.
[08:43] <TheMuso> minghua: I know its not an oddity, but it seems odd for the package in question.
[08:44] <minghua> TheMuso: Why?  If it's blocked from going into testing, it must have been built on mips/mipsel before.
[08:44] <TheMuso> minghua: Yeah, I know.
[08:44] <minghua> TheMuso: So it's a good argument that the FTBFS should be properly dealt with.
[08:45] <TheMuso> minghua: Well from the message, it seems that ardour's deps need to be fixed, before ardour itself can be built.
[08:47] <minghua> Then ardour is just a victim.  But such things happen all the time.
[08:47] <pwnguin> still, im surprised mips is supported
[08:48] <minghua> Sometime you don't even need the new features in the libraries you depend on, but since the shlibs version is bumped, you have to stay in unstable with the library and can't enter testing.
[08:50] <pwnguin> ugg
[08:50] <pwnguin> i really should have started my ppa with fiesty and then uploaded to gutsy
[08:51] <pwnguin> instead of trying to backport stuff
[08:52] <RAOF> Why must xgl crashes invariably fail to retrace?
[08:52] <pwnguin> threading?
[08:53] <RAOF> Maybe?  I'm not actually sure what can cause a retrace to fail, actually.
[08:53] <pwnguin> im not sure what a retrace is
[08:53] <pwnguin> sounds like a debugging stack thing
[08:54] <RAOF> Yeah, apport automatically (tries) to re-backtrace the crash with debugging symbols installed, if I understand it right.
[08:55] <pwnguin> all you'd have to do is mess with the stack
[08:56] <pwnguin> user space threading libraries do that
[08:56] <pwnguin> as do those super efficient nerds
[08:57] <RAOF> Stupid darn Xgl.  It also lies about accepting the +xinerama option.
[08:59] <pwnguin> the fun part is when people ask to attach an strace to authentication failures
[09:04] <dholbach> we should go through another round of unmetdeps bugs - only ScottK suggested that we might be better off without bug lists, as people tend to block each other out by assigning bugs to themselves - hrm
[09:04] <dholbach> I feel we should better try to block as minimally as possible
[09:05] <TheMuso> dholbach: How else do we do it if not bugs?
[09:05] <Hobbsee> dholbach: dont we usually do that with a bugflood, then just tag?
[09:05] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: generate our lists ourselves, and keep uploading them
[09:05] <dholbach> TheMuso: yeah
[09:06] <Hobbsee> dholbach: if we do it via apt-cache unmet -i, then a) we may be doing stuff that others have found break, and b) it's dependant on our mirror
[09:06] <TheMuso> Yeah that is an option.
[09:06] <dholbach> Hobbsee: I could modify the old 'massfile' script to use py-lpbugs, check if the bug is already filed (?field.tag=unmetdeps) then file it
[09:06] <Hobbsee> so i suspect bugs may still be the way to go there.
[09:06] <Hobbsee> dholbach: that would be useful
[09:06] <Hobbsee> dholbach: link in the topic, etc.
[09:06] <dholbach> I'm writing a blog post, when I just had this idea
[09:07] <Hobbsee> dholbach: the other thing is then - to make sure that people are sponsoring from non-MOTU's.
[09:07] <Hobbsee> we had a few cases of MOTU's doing the work without checking for bugs, where the hopeful had already done it too
[09:07] <dholbach> ah ok yeah
[09:07] <dholbach> but that's a more general process thing
[09:07] <dholbach> if we can codify that somewhere, we should do it
[09:07] <dholbach> GOD, we need a merged wiki :-)
[09:07] <Hobbsee> a merged wiki?
[09:08] <dholbach> yeah, not a mess of 13967146 motu wiki pages that are in random places
[09:08] <Hobbsee> ah
[09:08] <dholbach> you'd end up adding a "please, when you're dealing with bugs, do 1), then 2) then 3)" to at least five pages
[09:08] <StevenK> dholbach: I'll remove all of them leaving /MOTU, would that do? :-P
[09:08] <Hobbsee> haha
[09:08] <dholbach> StevenK: haha... welll - that's not what I proposed in the wiki clean up spec ;-)
[09:08] <\sh> oh unmet deps..now where even the suggests and recommends are checked
[09:10] <dholbach> I'll modify massfile to use pylpbugs instead of mailing, make it operate on a 'config file' that has a lookup-bug-url (?field.tag=unmetdeps in our case) and a standard text for description and title of the bug (also you need to give it a list of source packages)
[09:10] <dholbach> does that make sense?
[09:10] <StevenK> dholbach: Does to me.
[09:10] <StevenK> I've been looking for unmetdeps work to do.
[09:10] <dholbach> rock and roll
[09:10] <Hobbsee> \sh: not if you use -i
[09:10] <dholbach> I'll get working on that script later
[09:11] <\sh> Hobbsee, yeah, but we should fix the suggests etc. as well...it's bad when someone tries to install some suggests and it's not in the archives anymore or with another name
[09:11] <dholbach> when you're all triaging universe bugs, please tag as 'bitesize', 'packaging' and so on :)
[09:11] <Hobbsee> \sh: true
[09:11] <dholbach> super
[09:11] <Hobbsee> the unmet deps should tend to be bitesize
[09:12] <dholbach> we have 'unmetdeps' too
[09:12] <\sh> well, in the upcoming months until end of december I think I have to have other responsibilites...searching new jobs ;)
[09:12] <Hobbsee> yes, and they should be easy to fix
[09:12] <Hobbsee> by the time we find the solution - as to whether it's easy or nto, i find it's easier to upload it
[09:12] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: I'm kinda the same.
[09:13] <TheMuso> BTW, do we have good documentation to explain to hopefuls about bashisms?
[09:13] <Hobbsee> ask persia.  he read the entire wiki.
[09:13] <TheMuso> heh
[09:13] <\sh> TheMuso: any idea how to fix them really...I mean setting /bin/bash is not a real solution ;)
[09:14] <TheMuso> \sh: Depends on what the bashism is.
[09:14] <TheMuso> THe most common one is using {} and putting comma separated strings between them.
[09:14] <TheMuso> Well from what I've seen anyway.
[09:14] <\sh> TheMuso, yepp...
[09:14] <TheMuso> I can't think of any others atm.
[09:15] <StevenK> Some of the unmetdeps I've seen are not bitesize
[09:15] <\sh> and using == for "is equal" checks
[09:15] <\sh> we need to fix tomcat5.5 btw
[09:15] <\sh> it's old...
[09:15] <\sh> but tomcat5.5 5.0.35 FTBFS because of a different eclipse version
[09:15] <Hobbsee> StevenK: true that.
[09:15] <TheMuso> StevenK: Agreed. Take sear for example.
[09:16] <TheMuso> I was looking at that the other day. Fixing the deps is the easy part, but it also needs some c++ hacking love to get it to build.
[09:16] <TheMuso> Yet to get it work with the deps in ubuntu, you need to edit configure.ac, and run autoreconf
[09:17] <TheMuso> That certainly isn't bytesize.
[09:22] <pwnguin> i love source code written in english by guys who cant bother to translate their website
[09:24] <minghua> Maybe it's just English-speaking programmers and non-English-speaking web designers. :-P
[09:25] <pwnguin> its clearly a one guy affair
[09:43] <\sh> Hobbsee, do you have a linkedin account or something like that
[09:44] <Hobbsee>  \sh i dont, no.
[09:44] <Hobbsee> \sh: should i?  :)
[09:45] <\sh> Hobbsee, good for job hunters to find you ;)
[09:45] <SWAT> and spammers...
[09:45] <Hobbsee> \sh: good point.
[09:45] <Hobbsee> SWAT: my email is very public - it wouldnt matter, i dont think
[09:45] <Hobbsee> \sh: i havent previously, with the whole point about using an alias, etc.
[09:46] <Hobbsee> but i should perhaps rethink that
[09:46] <pwnguin> i donno about linked in
[09:46] <pwnguin> it sounds about as great as facebook
[09:46] <pwnguin> or dice
[09:47] <TheMuso> There is also OpenSkills.
[09:47] <SWAT> social networking 'can' be addictive and 'can' be useful. Unfortunately most people just go bonkers over it
[09:47] <\sh> SWAT, I don't get spam on linkedin or xing
[09:47] <\sh> pwnguin, facebook is childrens stuff...linkedin or xing is business
[09:47] <Hobbsee> SWAT: my myspace page finally got deleted.  that's the only social networking i was doing.
[09:48] <StevenK> Hurray! Now my eyes won't bleed any more!
[09:48] <Hobbsee> StevenK: i can recreate it.
[09:49] <Hobbsee> and it was a *lovely* background!
[09:49] <TheMuso> Oh sure it was.
[09:49] <StevenK> Twitch.
[09:49] <SWAT> Hobbsee, you said a bad word (myspace)
[09:49] <pwnguin> speaking of lovely colors
[09:49] <Hobbsee> SWAT: yeah, but you never saw it.
[09:50] <Hobbsee> SWAT: i had a page pretty much saying how myspace is evil.  it was the only reasonable page on the entire myspace
[09:50] <pwnguin> you know what would be neat? a set of filters to the color filter to SIMULATE being colorblind
[09:50] <Hobbsee> SWAT: to give you an idea of what it looked like, it looked something like this...
[09:50] <Hobbsee> with a fridge on it
[09:50] <pwnguin> it's one thing to use color filter to make things potentially better for the colorblind
[09:50] <Hobbsee> SWAT: http://www.klickibunti.org/buntibunti.php
[09:50] <Hobbsee> pwnguin: i think there is, iirc.
[09:51] <pwnguin> Hobbsee: not that ive seen
[09:51] <pwnguin> just grayscale
[09:51] <Hobbsee> ah
[09:51] <\sh> I'm blind now
[09:51] <Hobbsee> it bothers you less the longer you look at it.
[09:51] <tonyyarusso> It's Hobbsee's MySpace reincarnated!
[09:52] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: that was the original
[09:52] <tonyyarusso> ah
[09:52] <SWAT> Hobbsee, no brains no headache :)
[09:53] <Hobbsee> SWAT: :)
[09:54] <pwnguin> is -discuss worth subscribing to?
[09:54] <TheMuso> pwnguin: Theres not a lot of traffic if thats what you're worried about.
[09:55] <pwnguin> well lets call it noise:signal
[09:56] <Hobbsee> there's very occasionally useful stuff on -discuss
[09:56] <TheMuso> There are some interesting threads on there, not stuff I always find interesting, but yeah the vast majority of what I've seen has been intelligent.
[09:56] <Hobbsee> but it's usually on -devel too
[09:56] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: Not very useful, I agree, but certainly not crap
[09:57] <Hobbsee> SWAT: i suspect someone reported it.  eventually.  i dont think it would have been good for epileptics
[10:06] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: Although seeing one of the latest posts to the list, it seems that people think tha developers will listen to their requests on that list.
[10:06] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: probably forums users.
[10:06] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: who are learning that the developers are not on the forums.
[10:06] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: Oh right, the forums.
[10:06] <RAOF> Hobbsee: And thank the lord for that.
[10:07] <Hobbsee> RAOF: indeed.
[10:07] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: yes, them
[10:07] <TheMuso> The only forum I don't mind visiting is whirlpool.net.au
[10:07] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: still, the users believe that we're having trouble finding ideas, and so want all of theirs.
[10:08] <RAOF> Hobbsee: Yes, the "idea pool" forum isn't really functioning usefully.
[10:08] <Hobbsee> RAOF: it's only ever a place to shove all the requests
[10:08] <TheMuso> I'm sure there are many users that say "I shouldn't have to file a bug"
[10:08] <Hobbsee> RAOF: a black hole would be more effective, though.
[10:08] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: oh, indeed.
[10:09] <RAOF> Hobbsee: Even better would be to try and use it to synthesise open source hackers from forum-goers, but that's a low-yield reaction.
[10:10] <TheMuso> heh
[10:10] <Hobbsee> RAOF: they're trying.
[10:10] <RAOF> Maybe if we accelerated them to .99c, and collided them we could collect useful fragments :)
[10:11] <pwnguin> when i was a novice
[10:11] <pwnguin> one thing i liked about gentoo over debian was the forums
[10:11] <RAOF> Hobbsee: Yeah, there actually seems to be some good stuff in there, along with the n+1 "please break everything by dropping the FHS" threads.
[10:12] <pwnguin> irc was quite mean and difficult to pace with
[10:12] <Hobbsee> RAOF: fhs?
[10:12] <RAOF> filesystem-hierachy-standard?
[10:12] <RAOF> "Let's put all application files in /Applications"!!!!!111111
[10:13] <pwnguin> which works, if you have NeXT style fat binaries
[10:13] <RAOF> pwnguin: AKA static linking?
[10:13] <pwnguin> and brutal requirements on linking
[10:14] <pwnguin> RAOF: im not sure. i hear next uses fat binaries, but then theres these frameworks
[10:15] <pwnguin> and a heard a developer say on a podcast that apple would require you to not ship different framework versions
[10:15] <TheMuso> SO much stuff on OS X is statically linked, its crazy.
[10:15] <RAOF> TheMuso: Because they don't have a package manager.
[10:15] <TheMuso> RAOF: Yeah, but believe it or not, there are dynamic libs on the system, known as .dylib files.
[10:15] <RAOF> Dynamic linking *requires* a package manager to be remotely useful.
[10:16] <TheMuso> Yeah.
[10:16] <RAOF> TheMuso: Oh, I know.  It's just that each application will ship its own .dylibs, right?
[10:16] <TheMuso> RAOF: Either that, or its statically linked. I think.
[10:16] <TheMuso> Its a wonder that windows manages, as there is dynamic linking for that.
[10:16] <RAOF> And shipping it's own libraries is static linking in all but name.
[10:17] <RAOF> TheMuso: Windows apps by and large do the same.
[10:17] <TheMuso> RAOF: Yeah, but they throw them in windows/system32
[10:17] <RAOF> Not all the time.  Also, "dll hell" :)
[10:17] <TheMuso> yep
[10:18] <RAOF> TheMuso: Most games, for example, will ship any dlls they rely on in $bin_dir
[10:18] <TheMuso> RAOF: I'm guessing thats usually "program files/programname"?
[10:19] <RAOF> Yeah.  Which is why you end up with 50,000 copies of msvcrt_7.foo.bar lying around.
[10:19] <TheMuso> Lovely.
[10:19] <pwnguin> thats not so bad
[10:19] <pwnguin> its like 12K
[10:19] <RAOF> Basically, thank Debian for the ability to not suck at dynamic linkin.
[10:19] <pwnguin> its the 50 copies IN MEMORY that kill
[10:19] <TheMuso> Linux does rock in that regard.
[10:19] <TheMuso> And the funny thing is, other OSs could do it to, given a bit of thought.
[10:20] <pwnguin> not really
[10:20] <TheMuso> s/to/too/
[10:20] <pwnguin> "you cant ship a new version of that, it'd break our app!"
[10:20] <TheMuso> pwnguin: If it was done right from the first go, and was given thought, it wouldn.
[10:20] <pwnguin> MS bends over backwards to make sure ancient crap runs i hear
[10:21] <RAOF> They could, if you trusted people not to break ABI.  Which you can't, basically.
[10:21] <TheMuso> I know it wouldn't work now.
[10:21] <TheMuso> pwnguin: Which IMO is the biggest problem with Windows.
[10:21] <TheMuso> And a big security risk.
[10:21] <RAOF> TheMuso: If it was done right & was given thought, they'd end up with something very similar to APT, I think :)
[10:21] <TheMuso> RAOF: Agreed.
[10:22] <pwnguin> vista has something like a software marketplace
[10:22] <TheMuso> But that will never happen now.
[10:22] <pwnguin> but dpkg and debian-policy is what counts, not apt
[10:22] <RAOF> pwnguin: True.
[10:22] <TheMuso> Yep.
[10:23] <pwnguin> speaking of tight integration
[10:23] <pwnguin> debian refused a patch i reported
[10:23] <RAOF> I'm not sure how much the CLI helps, but that at least allows multiple libraries to be sanely installed.
[10:23] <pwnguin> on the grounds that its not a bug in upstream and they refuse to accept workarounds
[10:24] <pwnguin> gksudo makes some assumptions about the prompt it seems
[10:24] <pwnguin> and pam modules do not
[10:25] <RAOF> Right.  So, there's a gksudo bug lying around in there?  Possibly wishlist?
[10:25] <pwnguin> libpam_thinkfinger prompts you at console to scan a finger
[10:25] <pwnguin> gksudo wraps sudo
[10:26] <pwnguin> and displays a popup when you get the Password: prompt im told
[10:26] <RAOF> Urgh, really?
[10:26] <pwnguin> its been confirmed by upstream
[10:26] <pwnguin> in another bug, mvo tried pushing a bit on sudo itself
[10:27] <pwnguin> im not sure why
[10:27] <pwnguin> but basically, gdm, gnome-screensaver and gksudo all work differently
[10:27] <pwnguin> gdm happens to work fine
[10:27] <pwnguin> as far as i know
[10:28] <RAOF> Ah, so it's kindof a meta-bug?
[10:28] <pwnguin> basically, pam, sudo, and gksudo need to sit down and figure this out
[10:29] <TheMuso> Using a fingerprint reader would be really really handy for lots of sudo work. :)
[10:29] <pwnguin> yes and no
[10:29] <pwnguin> sudo already has a timeout
[10:30] <pwnguin> but if its not at the keyboard, its almost faster to just type the password
[10:35] <TheMuso> RAOF: Hense my point earlier re users thinking they can make requests via discuss to developers.
[10:36] <RAOF> TheMuso: Ah, I mised the context.
[10:36] <pwnguin> sounds like no, im not missing much on -discuss
[10:37] <RAOF> Because discussion is fun.
[10:38] <TheMuso> Probably because I was missing interesting discussions relating to posts to -devel as well as to -devel-discuss from core devs.
[10:43] <RAOF> Aaah, a Gnome user has responded to the compiz thread.
[10:44] <TheMuso> Evening ajmitch.
[10:47] <ajmitch> hi TheMuso
[10:49] <TheMuso> You and me both.
[10:49] <ajmitch> I'm glad
[10:51] <RAOF> I *think* he's complaining that the version number of the package doesn't correspond to the version of his binary.  Why he cares is still a mystery.
[10:54] <RAOF> We should probably bump the version to 3.2.23, just to mess with him.
[11:10] <dholbach> StevenK: massfile committed to ubuntu-dev-tools - wanna try and file a few unmetdeps bugs? :)
[11:16] <ajmitch> if only I had something useful to contribute :)
[11:18] <dholbach> try the massfile script
[11:18] <dholbach> this time it shouldn't even file duplicates
[11:22] <dholbach> if you run massfile, it will give you a sample instructions file into cwd
[11:22] <dholbach> that has the unmetdeps instructions :)
[11:24] <ajmitch> yes, I may need to change sources.list
[11:25] <dholbach> oh, you're still on feisty?
[11:25] <ajmitch> no
[11:25] <ajmitch> but I have my local debmirror stuff in there\
[11:25] <dholbach> ah right
[11:26] <dholbach> maybe somebody else should try to use it then; it worked OK for me
[11:26] <ajmitch> I should just do it in a chroot again, worked for me in feisty
[11:27] <dholbach> I uploaded it but it hangs in beta freeze
[11:27] <dholbach> it should be in bzr though
[11:27] <ajmitch> just getting the bzr branch
[11:27] <ajmitch> before my hands freeze up completely
[11:28] <dholbach> is it that cold?
[11:29] <ajmitch> I have no heater in here
[11:29] <dholbach> ugh :-/
[11:30] <ajmitch> hm, I already had  http://daniel.holba.ch/bzr/massfile/
[11:30] <dholbach> yeah, but this does not use email any more
[11:30] <dholbach> and it's cleverer not to file dups
[11:30] <ajmitch> ok
[11:30] <ajmitch> py-lp-bugs?
[11:30] <dholbach> yep
[11:30] <ajmitch> I'll need the latest package of that?
[11:31] <ajmitch> python-launchpad-bugs is already the newest version.
[11:31] <ajmitch> yay
[11:31] <dholbach> rock and roll
[11:31] <ajmitch> bzr+ssh is so much faster...
[11:31] <ajmitch> hehe
[11:32] <ajmitch> :0:> ./massfile
[11:32] <ajmitch> cp: cannot stat `/usr/share/doc/ubuntu-dev-tools/examples/massfile.instructions': No such file or directory
[11:32] <dholbach> urg
[11:32] <ajmitch> it really expects to be installed, doesn't it?
[11:32] <dholbach> lalalala
[11:33] <ajmitch> or at least onto a more memorable url :)
[11:34] <ajmitch> having a full mirror of main makes making a chroot so much faster as well
[11:38] <ajmitch> dholbach: do we need to subscribe motu?
[11:39] <dholbach> ajmitch: I talked to a mailman person to help us fix the universe-bugs thing, it's still on his todo list :-/
[11:39] <dholbach> so for now, I guess we should do it
[11:40] <ajmitch> need deb-src lines in chroot :)
[11:40] <ajmitch> how does it file bugs?
[11:40] <dholbach> using pylpbugs
[11:40] <ajmitch> yeah, but how does that work? https login?
[11:41] <dholbach> ah, it uses your lpcookie in ~/.lpcookie :)
[11:41] <ajmitch> which I don't have
[11:41] <dholbach> man ppaput      tells you where to find it
[11:41] <ajmitch> all these new things :)
[11:41] <dholbach> excusez-moi :)
[11:41] <ajmitch> hah, no man in chroot :)
[11:42] <dholbach> ah ok, sorry :)
[11:42] <dholbach> I can paste it to you, han ong
[11:42] <ajmitch> dpkg: considering removing devscripts in favour of ubuntu-dev-tools ...
[11:42] <ajmitch> eek
[11:42] <ajmitch> I need newer devscripts, obviously
[11:43] <dholbach> ah ok, that was because requestsync moved from one to the other
[11:44] <dholbach> ajmitch: example files bug fixed
[11:44] <dholbach> pushed
[11:45] <ajmitch> :0:> wc -l list
[11:45] <ajmitch> 84 list
[11:45] <ajmitch> not too many
[11:46] <dholbach> nice
[11:46] <dholbach> and some are already filed, I guess
[11:46] <dholbach> which $arch are you on?
[11:46] <ajmitch> amd64
[11:46] <dholbach> great :)
[11:46] <ajmitch> so I won't change the instructions file
[11:46] <dholbach> so you can leave it as that :)
[11:46] <dholbach> neat-o
[11:46] <ajmitch> yay, fail
[11:46] <ajmitch>   File "/usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/launchpadbugs/html_buglist.py", line 146, in __init__
[11:47] <ajmitch>     assert self.baseurl, "Invalid launchpad url %s" %baseurl
[11:47] <ajmitch> AssertionError: Invalid launchpad url None
[11:47] <dholbach> ugh
[11:47] <ajmitch> will it matter that I'm in the beta-testers team?
[11:47] <dholbach> no, it shouldn't
[11:47] <dholbach> which URL do you have in the instructions file?
[11:47] <ajmitch> then there's other breakage
[11:48] <ajmitch> url? :)
[11:49] <dholbach> hang on
[11:49] <ajmitch> ok, just saw the code for it
[11:49] <dholbach> fixing
[11:50] <ajmitch> so I need buglist-url
[11:50] <dholbach> fixed
[11:50] <ajmitch> thanks
[11:51] <ajmitch> <3 bzr
[11:51] <dholbach> "ajmitch is now part of the dholbach-beta-testers team."
[11:51] <ajmitch> hehe
[11:51] <dholbach> :-)
[11:51] <dholbach> hopefully I'll stop embarassing myself soon :)
[11:52] <ajmitch> all software has bugs, including those to deal with bugs ;)
[11:52] <dholbach> yeah, I think thekorn knows what you mean :)
[11:52] <ajmitch> ok, running now
[11:53] <dholbach> yeeehaaaaw
[11:53] <ajmitch> and it hates my cookie file, I'll just copy it
[11:54] <ajmitch> I'm just running scripts, you did all the hard work
[11:54] <ajmitch> 1 down...
[11:54] <dholbach> nah, I just copied bits and pieces from scripts I had written before :)
[11:54] <dholbach> and used thekorn's good work
[11:54] <dholbach> which bug number is it?
[11:54] <ajmitch> bug 145519
[11:54] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 145519 in libapache-filter-perl "[UNMETDEPS]  libapache-filter-perl has unmet dependencies" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145519
[11:55] <dholbach> TheMuso: that's going to be easy once ajmitch has filed those bugs
[11:55] <ajmitch> bug 145520
[11:55] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 145520 in khalkhi "[UNMETDEPS]  libapache-filter-perl has unmet dependencies" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145520
[11:55] <ajmitch> uh oh
[11:55] <dholbach> TheMuso: you'll just have to re-generate the 'list' file with packages, then re-run the script on ppc
[11:55] <ajmitch> dholbach: your old bug is back!
[11:55] <dholbach> interesting :)
[11:55] <dholbach> can you stop the script?
[11:55] <dholbach> gracias
[11:55] <TheMuso> dholbach: Right.
[11:58] <ajmitch> except that config isn't reset to the starting value each time
[11:59] <ajmitch> so $pack is no longer there
[11:59] <ajmitch> you could have     config = read_config()
[11:59] <ajmitch> in the loop each time, which is ugly
[11:59] <ajmitch> or just work on a copy of config each time
[11:59] <dholbach> ajmitch: hum - the file should not change
[11:59] <dholbach> ah ARG
[11:59] <dholbach> yeah, I know
[11:59] <ajmitch> no, the file won't change, but the object will :)
[12:00] <dholbach> ah, I know how to do it
[12:00] <dholbach> I'll compose the strings in file_bug()
[12:00] <ajmitch> for pack in pack_list: # refresh the subject & mailtext read_config() # generate bug report
[12:00] <ajmitch> ok, that didn't paste well, but you used to read_config() for every bug
[12:01] <ajmitch> yeah, doing it in file_bug will work, it should operate on a copy of config
[12:03] <ajmitch> if it doesn't, pass in config[:] 
[12:03] <ajmitch> hello StevenK
[12:03] <dholbach> ajmitch: pushed - let me know if it makes sense now ;-)
[12:05] <StevenK> config is a array, I'm guessing, why would you need to pass in config[:] ?
[12:10] <StevenK> Let me log on, WoW!
[12:10] <ajmitch> pass by ref?
[12:11] <ajmitch> if file_bug is mangling config on every bug and replacing the text that I want to use, it makes it a lot harder to replace next time round
[12:12] <dholbach> ajmitch: um... string.replace should replace a copy, no?
[12:12] <dholbach> ajmitch: is it still wrong?
[12:12] <ajmitch> trying to get it to file any bugs now
[12:13] <dholbach> it doesn't any more?
[12:13] <ajmitch> if it is, it's doing it rather faster than expected
[12:13] <dholbach> hrm
[12:14] <ajmitch> & never printing out "Successfully filed" nor "Bug for '%s' was not filed"
[12:15] <dholbach> sorry
[12:15] <dholbach> found the bug
[12:15] <ajmitch> what is it?
[12:15] <dholbach> pack -> config["sourcepackage"] 
[12:15] <dholbach> lalala
[12:16] <ajmitch> heh
[12:17] <ajmitch> yes, I see it now :)
[12:17] <dholbach> pushed
[12:18] <StevenK> Why WoW 2.2.0 seems to only give me 2 fps.... :-/
[12:18] <ajmitch> works for me
[12:18] <StevenK> Yes, but that doesn't help me. :-)
[12:18] <ajmitch> bug 145528
[12:18] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 145528 in libapache-mod-layout "[UNMETDEPS]  libapache-mod-layout has unmet dependencies" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145528
[12:18] <ajmitch> yay, seems to have the right name & all
[12:19] <dholbach> ajmitch: THANKS so much
[12:19] <TheMuso> StevenK: I think ajmitch is talking about something else.
[12:19] <ajmitch> np
[12:19] <ajmitch> TheMuso: no, I was talking about WoW :)
[12:19] <ajmitch> it's still quite playable for me, even on my cheap hardware
[12:19] <TheMuso> StevenK: I know that, and I think ajmitch is talking about the bug stuff he's doing with dholbach.
[12:19] <TheMuso> ajmitch: Ok, you are talking about the same thing. :)
[12:20] <TheMuso> lol
[12:20] <ajmitch> dholbach: it's about the only thing I can do right now
[12:27] <proppy> soren: hi
[12:28] <TheMuso> Has anybody thought of working out if packages have file conflicts with each other, other than packages that actually do conflict?
[12:28] <ajmitch> TheMuso: yes, lifeless has
[12:28] <TheMuso> I wouldn't be surprised if there are a few.
[12:28] <TheMuso> ajmitch: Ah thats what conflict resolution or whatever its called is for.
[12:29] <ajmitch> http://people.ubuntu.com/~robertc/possible-conflicts/gutsy/
[12:29] <ajmitch> last update seems to be in june
[12:29] <TheMuso> hmmm ok.
[12:29] <ajmitch> I was going to try & process it into something readable, maybe I could do it this weekend
[12:30] <ajmitch> bug #145527
[12:30] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 145527 in hello "[UNMETDEPS]  hello has unmet dependencies" [Undecided,Fix released]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145527
[12:30] <TheMuso> ROFL
[12:30] <dholbach> testbug ;)
[12:34] <StevenK> % uptime
[12:34] <StevenK>  20:35:31 up 40 days,  4:08,  6 users,  load average: 5.69, 4.55, 3.01
[12:34] <StevenK> Hrm.
[12:34] <StevenK> Maybe I get my load average down, WoW would actually perform
[12:34] <ajmitch> reboot time?
[12:36] <StevenK> Yeah, but that seems like a Windows solution. :-)
[12:36] <ajmitch> it seems like a good idea when there's a security issue on amd64 :)
[12:38] <StevenK> Meh, I have a firewall. :-)
[12:39] <ajmitch> so inconvenient though
[12:53] <ajmitch> ok, massfile finished
[12:55] <dholbach> ajmitch: blogged about our TODO list :)
[12:55] <ajmitch> ?
[12:55] <ajmitch> ok, rc bugs list not up there
[12:56] <ajmitch> probably a good thing if I want to change url :)
[12:57] <dholbach> you could file them into LP too, we'd just need to modify massfile to read from a csv file
[12:58] <ajmitch> problem si the number of false positives there
[12:59] <dholbach> hm
[12:59] <ajmitch> & it's not a csv file, really :)
[12:59] <dholbach> yeah, we'd need to change other bits too :)
[12:59] <ajmitch> http://ajmitch.net.nz/~ajmitch/missing-fixes-rc.txt
[12:59] <ajmitch> python file generates a txt file to be processed
[01:00] <dholbach> don't you think we could try it and try to optimise the process from there? :-)))
[01:00] <dholbach> that way it'd be off your page :)
[01:00] <ajmitch> suggestions...
[01:00] <dholbach> hm?
[01:00] <ajmitch> considering that I have to update it nightly
[01:00] <ajmitch> based on the latest bug data from debian
[01:00] <dholbach> right
[01:01] <dholbach> but at least the webpage thing would be off your site
[01:01] <ajmitch> right, though the webpage isn't terribly large
[01:02] <ajmitch> I'd have to get the whole list, file bugs if they weren't already filed, and attach a debian bug task
[01:07] <dholbach> ajmitch: in an optimal world, yes :)
[01:07] <ajmitch> in a non-optimal world, we get shot down before that happens
[01:10] <dholbach> we could check if a bug is already open, then add a new comment
[01:13] <StevenK> Gah. Still slow, after reboot.
[01:13] <StevenK> And WoW *really really* doesn't like being strace'd
[01:13] <ajmitch> hehe
[01:14] <ajmitch> I know that they changed the sound code
[01:14] <ajmitch> and many people are complaining that it royally sucks
[01:14] <ajmitch> but I still get a reasonable framerate
[01:14] <StevenK> Are you using ALSA or OSS?
[01:15] <ajmitch> probably OSS
[01:15] <ajmitch> yep, OSS, I'd had a number of problems with alsa
[01:16] <StevenK> How do I switch to OSS?
[01:16] <StevenK> (Or check?)
[01:16] <ajmitch> winecfg
[01:17] <StevenK> Duh, of course
[01:17] <StevenK> Right, switched to OSS
[01:17] <TheMuso> Ok, seems that there are some unmet deps bugs that are only on amd64, like dasher.
[01:17] <ajmitch> that's usual
[01:18] <ajmitch> arch:all vs arch:any
[01:18] <ajmitch> amd64 is always treated 2nd best :)
[01:18] <StevenK> Hah!
[01:18] <StevenK> 42 fps
[01:18] <ajmitch> much better
[01:18] <TheMuso> ajmitch: Yeah I know, it just means that only people with amd64 can actually resolve those bugs.
[01:18] <StevenK> ajmitch: $beers_owed++; Thanks
[01:19] <ajmitch> StevenK: meh, I doubt I'll see you around to collect them anytime soon :)
[01:19] <ajmitch> I don't know if I'll get time away for LCA
[01:23] <StevenK> Yeah, I'm not sure either
[01:23] <ajmitch> it'd be worth it
[01:33] <ajmitch> night
[02:10] <fernando> moin all
[02:42] <proppy> hi
[03:07] <norsetto> hiyall
[03:08] <Hobbsee> norsetto!
[03:08] <norsetto> hobbsee!!
[03:40] <norsetto> Silly question of the day: anyone can tell me how to set your @ubuntu.com address?
[03:41] <Hobbsee> norsetto: it's to the LP primary address
[03:41] <norsetto> Hobbsee: ok, so there is no need to do anything?
[03:42] <Hobbsee> norsetto: email <lpid>@ubuntu.com and see if it works yet.
[03:42] <norsetto> Hobbsee: not even changing your gpg keys, etc.?
[03:42] <Hobbsee> norsetto: nope
[03:42] <Hobbsee> norsetto: although you can add that to your current gpg key if you wish
[03:42] <norsetto> Hobbsee: ok, good to know :-)
[03:56] <bddebian> Heya gang
[03:56] <fernando> hey bddebian
[03:56] <bddebian> Hello fernando
[04:31] <Kopfgeldjaeger> hi
[04:48] <norsetto> Hobbsee: my kitten thanks you VERY MUCH
[04:49] <Hobbsee> norsetto: :D
[05:12] <Kopfgeldjaeger> could a revu reviewer have a little look at my avidemux package? http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=303
[05:15] <white> anyone familiar with qt by any chance and knows, how I could easily iterate over a QButtonGroup and check the state of each QCheckBox?
[05:15] <Hobbsee> white: try #kde-devel?
[05:15] <Hobbsee> Kopfgeldjaeger: you know that we're in upstream version freeze?
[05:18] <Kopfgeldjaeger> Hobbsee: i do
[05:18] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: I can give you some comments but, as Hobbsee said, this will be for hardy
[05:19] <Kopfgeldjaeger> i know that universe is frozen ;) and stated that 2 times before *g
[05:20] <Hobbsee> Kopfgeldjaeger: oh cool, right :)
[05:20] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: then why you have feisty in your changelog .....
[05:21] <Kopfgeldjaeger> norsetto: because im running feisty at the moment :-) i do not think that dependencies cant be resolved in gutsy/hardy anymore, but i will check
[05:22] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: you have to change that, and for the time being just make sure that your dependancies are in-line with gutsy and that it builds in a gutsy chroot
[05:22] <Kopfgeldjaeger> i now some things are not absolutely correct to upload it (e.g., I am the maintainer, not ubuntu)
[05:23] <Kopfgeldjaeger> ok, i will
[05:23] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: which, for the time being, it doesn't :-(
[05:23] <Kopfgeldjaeger> damn. what does fail?
[05:24] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: E: Couldn't find package libsmjs-dev
[05:24] <Kopfgeldjaeger> hmm. i will (try to) resolve that
[05:25] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: also, you may look into using libsdl1.2-dev now
[05:25] <Kopfgeldjaeger> then
[05:26] <Kopfgeldjaeger> the old avidemux version cannot be built for gutsy. it also has libsmjd-dev as dependency
[05:26] <Kopfgeldjaeger> but
[05:26] <Kopfgeldjaeger> i think that this is not needed anymore (because the source for this is in avidemux)
[05:28] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: btw, since there is already an avidemux, this is not a new package, but an update
[05:29] <Kopfgeldjaeger> im currently pbuilding it with feisty while reading how to create multiple pbuilders
[05:29] <Kopfgeldjaeger> norsetto: its not based on the old package, and there are some things that are not so good in the ATM-package
[05:30] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: I don't think that matters much for the archivers
[05:31] <Kopfgeldjaeger> ok. did i something wrong with uploading it to revu? i also firstly thought revu's only for new packages, but $(name here in 2 minutes) told me its not
[05:31] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: the old one is in multiverse, btw, and you have a GPL in copyright. Was there such a change?
[05:31] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: no, you did well, but in principle, since there is a package already, you should base your work on that package (with the new tarball of course)
[05:32] <Kopfgeldjaeger> it is GPL! and there are gpl v2 statements in the c/c++ files (but not in the header files)
[05:32] <Kopfgeldjaeger> i will check if maybe something is not gpl (codec for example)
[05:35] <Kopfgeldjaeger> libmjpegtools-dev is in multiverse
[05:36] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: ok, and that is a depend of avidemux? I can see that most sources are GPL. Two scripts are LGPL .....
[05:36] <Kopfgeldjaeger> as liblame-dev is
[05:37] <Kopfgeldjaeger> at least it gives avidemux more features (mp3 in case of lame)
[05:37] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: no, they are not Lesser GPL, but Library GPL :/
[05:39] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: I think you have a hell of work to do as well to collect all copyrigthers
[05:42] <Kopfgeldjaeger> doesnt sound good :/ i wanted to fill bug reports yesterday (because of missing gpl statements in header files), but the bug tracker crashes when trying to register
[05:42] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: take it easy, we have quite some months ahead of us :-)
[05:43] <Kopfgeldjaeger> yeah :D
[05:45] <Kopfgeldjaeger> does build without libsmjs-dev and with libsdl1.2-dev instead of just libsdl-dev (on feisty)
[05:45] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: I must admit I don't understand this link business with avidemux2_gtk and avidemux.
[05:47] <Kopfgeldjaeger> norsetto: avidemux does only create the avidemux2_gtk file, and my first try would be just "avidemux"... shall i change it (well, ill just remove the (pre|post)install scripts and change avidemux.desktop
[05:47] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: if the ELF is avidemux2_gtk, why changing it....
[05:48] <Kopfgeldjaeger> ok
[05:48] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: just make sure the man page list the right ELF and the .desktop has it
[05:49] <Kopfgeldjaeger> i did not write a man page yet
[05:49] <Kopfgeldjaeger> and upstream avidemux does not have one
[05:50] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: np, we have enough time to make one
[05:50] <Kopfgeldjaeger> yes, thats rhight
[05:50] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: do you install something in /usr/sbin?
[05:50] <Kopfgeldjaeger> norsetto: i know
[05:51] <Kopfgeldjaeger> norsetto: i changed that yesterday in my local environment, but didnt upload it yet (wanted some more changes, to keep the history a bit concise)
[05:52] <Kopfgeldjaeger> i think dh_make added this itself. and i changed the "mkdir -p"  thing in debian/rules, too
[05:52] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: sure, also, since you are using the dirs file, you should use that for /usr/share/applications and /usr/share/pixmaps and remove the mkdir from rules
[05:52] <Kopfgeldjaeger> :-)
[05:52] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: dh_make is evil ....
[05:53] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: while you are at it you can also remove the cp from rules and use an install file
[05:54] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: but if you change the name of the icon I don't think you can
[05:54] <Kopfgeldjaeger> norsetto: in the manpage of dh_install its not described how to copy extra files into the package. do you have a word to search for? or just an example :)
[05:55] <Kopfgeldjaeger> @icon: this was also my argument against *.install yesterday
[05:55] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: yes, I don't think you can do that with an install file
[05:57] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: do you have examples? Because you are using dh_installexamples
[05:57] <Kopfgeldjaeger> nope, will remove that. and comment out dh_installdocs for now
[05:58] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: you define CFLAGS but I don't think you are using it
[05:59] <Kopfgeldjaeger> you mean line 17 to 21?
[06:00] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: I'm looking at the diff; usually you pass them to configure with CFLAGS="$(CFLAGS)"
[06:00] <Kopfgeldjaeger> i will replace it with that
[06:01] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: a couple of easy ones as I have to go (wife is back)
[06:01] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: Encoding=UTF-8 is deprecated
[06:02] <Kopfgeldjaeger> removed.
[06:02] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: Icon=avidemux.png no need to add the extension
[06:02] <Kopfgeldjaeger> fixed
[06:02] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: Categories=AudioVideo need to add a final ;
[06:02] <Kopfgeldjaeger> fixed in local version
[06:02] <Kopfgeldjaeger> (already)
[06:03] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: Comment=A Simple Visual Video Editor should be changed to imperative (like, Edit your Videos)
[06:04] <Kopfgeldjaeger> changed.
[06:04] <proppy> soren: ping
[06:04] <soren> proppy: pong
[06:04] <Kopfgeldjaeger> i'll also add the german translation with *[de] 
[06:07] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: can you add an homepage entry to the description in control?
[06:07] <Kopfgeldjaeger> yes
[06:07] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: a watch file could be nice to have too
[06:08] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: the Maintainer field also need to be changed
[06:09] <Kopfgeldjaeger> i do not think that would really work @watch-file, the files are mirrored on berlios and sf and are labeled unusually (avidemux-2.4-preview1.tar.gz for example)
[06:11] <proppy> soren: I thought about what you told me yesterday
[06:11] <proppy> soren: about the autoconf bloat vs a simple Makefile project
[06:12] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: it may need some work then
[06:12] <proppy> soren: I checked against the upstream Makefile, but it lacks an install: target
[06:12] <proppy> soren: Is it fine to add it in a cdbs patch ?
[06:14] <soren> proppy: It's much easier to just install it directly from debian/rules
[06:16] <proppy> soren: the upstream also lacks ChangeLog and News file
[06:16] <proppy> NEWS
[06:16] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: btw, you do have a manpage already, its just a matter of installing it
[06:16] <proppy> soren: directly override the install rules and cpying by hand ? or using dh_install and .install file
[06:16] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: no wait, you commented that out
[06:16] <Kopfgeldjaeger> youre right, shame on me
[06:16] <proppy> soren: I see
[06:16] <ScottK> norsetto: Why was the old one in Multiverse?
[06:17] <soren> proppy: Alright.
[06:17] <ScottK> Oops.
[06:17] <norsetto> scottk: dependancies
[06:17] <soren> proppy: You might want to look at the post-install stuff in the cdbs docs.
[06:18] <Kopfgeldjaeger> hm, do i have to tell dh_installman where the file is?
[06:18] <ScottK> norsetto: I was scrolled back and didn't realize it.  Sorry for the noise.
[06:18] <proppy> soren: ok thanks
[06:19] <norsetto> scottk: don't be sorry, I'm glad you check it out too
[06:22] <norsetto> ScottK: btw, do you know if I have to do something to activate my ubuntu.com address? It seems it is not working yet
[06:23] <ScottK> norsetto: I had to go bug someone, but I don't recall who.
[06:23] <ScottK> IIRC I did it with a LP question.
[06:23] <norsetto> ScottK: ok, maybe they know in #launchpad
[06:23] <Hobbsee> norsetto: how long since you became a member?
[06:23] <ScottK> Maybe.
[06:24] <norsetto> Hobbsee: good question, I actually don't know, let me check
[06:25] <norsetto> Hobbsee: 21/9
[06:25] <proppy> soren: thanks for the hint
[06:25] <Hobbsee> norsetto: if you get my email, give me a yell
[06:26] <Hobbsee> ok, it got rejected
[06:26] <Hobbsee> norsetto: iirc, the email is somewhat botched.
[06:29] <norsetto> Hobbsee: ok, let me ask in #launchpad (hoping there is somebody alive there)
[06:30] <Kopfgeldjaeger> builds without problems in gutsy, i will try to get dh_installman working and then upload it
[06:32] <simu> hello, trying to print with a laserjet using the recommended ppd driver but the printer doenst print and cups doesnt show an error
[06:32] <Kopfgeldjaeger> simu: better try #ubuntu
[06:32] <jdong> !support
[06:32] <ubotu> the official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org
[06:32] <simu> using pxlmono works so far that some garbage comes out of the printer
[06:33] <simu> but sing the reccomended drivers nothing happens
[06:35] <LaserJock> dholbach: ping
[06:35] <dholbach> LaserJock: in the CC meeting atm
[06:35] <dholbach> LaserJock: can you PM me, so I get back to you later on?
[06:36] <LaserJock> dholbach: yep
[06:37] <bddebian> Heya LaserJock
[06:48] <norsetto> LaserJock: hi .... was that email real or a laserjoke?
[06:49] <LaserJock> norsetto: real
[06:49] <LaserJock> norsetto: please reply ASAP ;-)
[06:49] <norsetto> LaserJock: oh :-(
[06:50] <LaserJock> norsetto: you don't want to do it?
[06:51] <norsetto> LaserJock: its just that I must be the most boring person here ....
[06:51] <LaserJock> norsetto: no way, you've got such and interesting story
[06:52] <norsetto> LaserJock: wait, I need to copy this and show it to my wife
[06:52] <bddebian> norsetto: Nope, that'd be me :)
[06:52] <bddebian> StevenK: You still around?
[06:53] <norsetto> bddebian: boring de debian ;-)
[06:53] <bddebian> Exactly :-)
[07:05] <Kopfgeldjaeger> norsetto: so, just uploaded it to REVU. the manpage is now added correctly
[07:05] <norsetto> Kopfgeldjaeger: cool
[07:06] <StevenK> bddebian: Not for long
[07:07] <bddebian> StevenK: Just a quickie.  libapache-asp-perl also depends libapache-ssi-perl but apache2 has mod_include.  Totally different?
[07:07] <StevenK> Not sure.
[07:26] <mertiki> Hi, I created a source package for Gnucash 2.2.1 based on the Debian one to fix the bug #129759 and wanted to see if my work has any chances to be OK for Gutsy
[07:26] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 129759 in gnucash "new upstream release 2.2.0" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/129759
[07:27] <mertiki> I came speaking about it here because I know that the final Gutsy release is in few weeks
[07:28] <mertiki> And if Gnucash isn't upgraded to version 2.2.1, there's risks that people will have incompatible gnucash files with the future releases
[07:29] <mertiki> Does anyone can look at this?
[07:29] <Hobbsee> please follow the instructions at !uvf
[07:29] <Hobbsee> !uvf
[07:29] <ubotu> uvf is Upstream Version Freeze.  For an exception, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess#head-9523bc4076ff011324d67cddc97969ec609618d6
[07:29] <mertiki> Hobbsee : thanks, I will
[07:30] <zul> you might or might not get one though
[07:30] <mertiki> Hobbsee : I wasn't sure that I should use this method because I'm not the actual maintainer of the package
[07:30] <Hobbsee> it's group maintainership
[07:30] <mertiki> of course, because it's late in the Gutsy development phase
[07:31] <mertiki> Ok good, thanks for these informations
[07:31] <Hobbsee> then your chances are somewhat slim
[07:31] <mertiki> at worst, it will be for Gutsy + 1
[07:45] <ScottK> mertiki: 2.2.1 is in Debian, so it's possible.  I'd do the UVFe if you think it's important.
[07:46] <mertiki> ScottK : I just did a Debian merged package, I just had to fix two little things, and I use the 2.2.1 version now, it's stable and all working
[07:47] <ScottK> mertiki: Then include the debdiff from the debian version in your UVFe.  That'll improve your chances signficantly.
[07:47] <mertiki> ScottK : When doing a UVF, it's asked to provide diffstats for the tarballs, should I do a diffstats of the orig.tar.gz AND the diff.gz tarballs?
[07:47] <ScottK> Just the orig.tar.gz
[07:47] <mertiki> OK, so I attach diffstats and debdiff?
[07:48] <ScottK> changelog diff
[07:48] <ScottK> build log
[07:48] <ScottK> install log
[07:48] <ScottK> All the stuff that's in the link Hobsee gave you.
[07:48] <ScottK> Plus the debdiff since you have that.
[07:50] <mertiki> ScottK : Ok, one last question, it's specified that the needed changelog aren't the debian/changelog one, so where do I find the needed changelogs?
[07:50] <ScottK> It's the upstream changelog.
[07:50] <ScottK> Often called CHANGES
[07:50] <ScottK> In the orig.tar.gz
[07:51] <mertiki> ScottK : Okay, I understand! I wasn't totally sure, thanks
[07:51] <ScottK> No problem.
[07:52] <mertiki> ScottK : It will take some time before I add the needed files to the bug report because it's the first time that I provide these files and I want to do a good job
[07:52] <ScottK> Don't forget to subscribe motu-uvf to the bug when you are done.
[07:53] <mertiki> ScottK : I won't forget :)
[07:59] <Kopfgeldjaeger> is there a (not thaaaat big) application that needs packaging and i could try my luck on?
[08:23] <bddebian> la la la la
[08:25] <soren> bddebian: hear head
[08:25] <soren> hear hear, even.
[08:25] <soren> "hear head"... gah...
[08:26] <ScottK> Well I got my package I made last night uploaded to Debian.
[08:27] <soren> Which one was that?
[08:27] <ScottK> 1 hour to make the package and ~30 minutes with a DD to get it reviewed and uploaded.  Who says it's hard to get stuff into Debian?
[08:27] <soren> I do.
[08:27] <soren> Well, gotta run.
[08:27] <ScottK> soren: http://ftp-master.debian.org/~ajt/new/pysubnettree_0.1-1_i386.html
[08:29] <bddebian> gads this apache and perl shit is confusing
[08:30] <ScottK> Ahh. MY EYES!
[08:30] <ScottK> Apache and Perl in the same line.  Arghh!!!
[08:33] <DktrKranz> blueyed, around?
[08:34] <geser> bddebian: cleaning up the apache modules?
[08:35] <bddebian> geser: Trying but making an idiot out of myself in the process as usual :-(
[08:36] <ScottK> But also getting it cleaned up too.  Keep at it.
[08:40] <enyc> Hrrm
[08:40] <enyc> widelands build-11 would be nice in gutsy but its a bit late now I think ;-)
[08:41] <blueyed> yes, DktrKranz.
[08:41] <DktrKranz> blueyed, any news on bug 135695 ?
[08:41] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 135695 in php-interbase "FTBFS: depends on php4-dev, which has been removed" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/135695
[08:42] <bddebian> That's an ugly bug
[08:42] <bddebian> I was looking at that last night
[08:42] <blueyed> Have you tested the debdiff, DktrKranz?
[08:43] <DktrKranz> not yet, but since I was after a similar bug (bug 110637), I would like to mark mine as dupe
[08:43] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 110637 in php-interbase "php5-interbase missing in feisty" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/110637
[08:43] <DktrKranz> bddebian, that package requires *a lot* of love
[08:44] <DktrKranz> (or firebird in main...)
[08:44] <blueyed> Can you test the debdiff, please?
[08:44] <DktrKranz> blueyed, sure
[08:44] <DktrKranz> it's huge, so it has to be reviewed carefully
[08:45] <DktrKranz> but, at a first look, it seems identical to a package I uploaded to REVU some time ago
[08:46] <blueyed> A new package?
[08:46] <blueyed> Anyway, the most differences are because of removal of the php4 files.
[08:46] <blueyed> I'll subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors, ok?
[08:46] <bddebian> I still don't get why we are keeping it just for packages broken with the php-interbase from PHP5
[08:47] <blueyed> Would be great, if you could test and confirm the bug, DktrKranz.
[08:47] <Kopfgeldjaeger> should i just create a patch to change some little things in the avidemux (upstream) manpage or should i copy it to under debian/ and edit that file?
[08:47] <DktrKranz> bddebian, B-D on a software in universe, doesn't fit good with PHP in main
[08:47] <bddebian> DktrKranz: That doesn't make it any less stupid to me :)
[08:48] <blueyed> bddebian: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/php-interbase/+bug/135716/comments/1
[08:48] <DktrKranz> well, it has a rdepends, so we can't just drop it
[08:48] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 135716 in php-interbase "Please remove php-interbase from Gutsy" [Undecided,Invalid] 
[08:57] <ScottK> Kopfgeldjaeger: Make a patch with a debdiff.
[08:58] <Kopfgeldjaeger> ScottK: what do you mean with debdiff? i do not want to patch the now-in-the-repos version, im creating a new package (for hardy)
[08:59] <ScottK> Kopfgeldjaeger: Are you wanting to change the current package with the same upstream version or package a new upstream version?
[09:00] <ScottK> For the former, a debdiff is what you want.
[09:00] <ScottK> For that latter, add the patch and then upload to REVU.
[09:00] <Kopfgeldjaeger> ScottK: new upstream version (im working with the svn version, but i think till hardy a new version will be out)
[09:01] <ScottK> OK.  Then once you have it ready, upload it to REVU.
[09:01] <Kopfgeldjaeger> i already uploaded it to REVU. so, just create the patch for the manpage and handle this as you usually do... hum, i will need a manual. ;)
[09:06] <Kopfgeldjaeger> do you have a link that describes how to use patches (with debhelper)? i cant find anything :/
[09:07] <ScottK> Kopfgeldjaeger: Look on the Ubuntu wiki in the MOTU School pages.  There's one there.
[09:08] <Kopfgeldjaeger> aah :-)
[09:16] <Kopfgeldjaeger> is it bad style to just call "patch -FoObAr < debian/patches/001_fix_raboff.patch" in debian/rules ?
[09:17] <geser> why not use a patch system?
[09:17] <geser> if you do it manually don't forget to undo the patching in the clean target
[09:17] <Kopfgeldjaeger> i do not really look through it yet...
[09:18] <Kopfgeldjaeger> it's just a 2 lines patch (ok, as patch it maybe would be 5 lines or so)
[09:20] <DktrKranz> blueyed, debdiff seems good. I post a comment on the bug
[09:27] <geser> Kopfgeldjaeger: what about not using patch, and patching the file directly and using the file in /debian/patches for documentation only?
[09:28] <geser> this way you don't have the problem with patch/unpatch
[09:28] <ScottK> Someone who cares may want to look into an evolution-python UVFe.  I new version was just uploaded to Debian.
[09:30] <Kopfgeldjaeger> geser: so, do the change outside of debian/ ?
[09:31] <geser> yes, it's not forbidden
[09:31] <geser> if the package doesn't use a patch system and the change is small patch directly is an option
[09:32] <Kopfgeldjaeger> ok, i will do it this way.
[09:50] <pkern> soren: ping
[09:51] <ScottK> I'll be AFK from now until Sunday night, so have a nice rest of your week everyone.
[09:52] <_MMA_> You to Scott.
[09:53] <geser> ScottK: did you upload websvn or was it synced?
[09:53] <ScottK> It was a sync that I did.
[09:54] <ScottK> I uploaded it after using syncpackage.
[09:54] <ScottK> Did I mess up?
[09:54] <geser> no, I only filed a bug for it, bug #139985
[09:54] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 139985 in websvn "[Sync request]  Sync websvn (1.61-23) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/139985
[09:54] <ScottK> Bah.  Sorry about that.
[09:55] <geser> are we now supposed to use syncpackage to sync a package
[09:55] <geser> ?
[09:55] <ScottK> Not really most of the time.
[09:55] <ScottK> I probably shouldn't have.
[09:55] <ScottK> There's an issue if an orig.tar.gz is in a PPA where you have to, but other than that, no.
[09:55] <ScottK> Gotta run.
[09:56] <geser> ScottK: have fun
[10:23] <pkern> soren: What I wanted to say everytime I pinged you: I could also subscribe u-u-s if you don't have time, no problem.
[10:43] <ajmitch> good morning
[10:44] <geser> Hi ajmitch
[10:55] <norsetto> ajmitch: hi
[10:56] <norsetto> geser: hi 2 u too :-)
[10:56] <geser> norsetto: Hi
[10:57] <norsetto> anyone has any idea where this libcairo2 version can come from? 1.4.10-1turner3~feisty0.1
[10:58] <DktrKranz> norsetto, where is it?
[10:58] <norsetto> DktrKranz: yes, thats the question :-)
[10:59] <DktrKranz> ah, I imagined it was on LP somewhere
[10:59] <DktrKranz> anyway, ask apt-cache policy
[10:59] <DktrKranz> (if you got it through updates, of course)
[11:00] <norsetto> DktrKranz: I don't think its from an ubuntu repository, thats why I'm asking (can't find it in archive.ubuntu.com)
[11:00] <geser> have you some 3rd-party repos?
[11:01] <norsetto> geser: no, its not a problem of mine, its bug 145786
[11:01] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 145786 in gtk+2.0 "libgtk2.0-dev needs dependencies fails to install" [Medium,Invalid]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145786
[11:01] <DktrKranz> "3rd-party repos", I'm starting to hate that. on italian forums some people completely destroyed python infrastructure for these kind of NON-repositories
[11:02] <norsetto> in the changelog is this: Matti Lindell <mlind@cs.joensuu.fi>
[11:02] <norsetto> apparently is some kind of font fix ......
[11:03] <pwnguin> DktrKranz: maybe someone should write a "how to use open source" within the context of ubuntu and put it as part of Examples
[11:03] <pwnguin> or rather, record
[11:03] <norsetto> here is the archive: http://myy.helia.fi/~karte/feisty-font-fix/
[11:04] <DktrKranz> norsetto, you are quicker than me :)
[11:04] <DktrKranz> just for a couple of seconds...
[11:04] <norsetto> DktrKranz: indeed he has these at the end of his sources.lst ......
[11:05] <norsetto> DktrKranz: oh well, anybody wants the pleasure to answer to that bug report :-)
[11:06] <geser> norsetto: seb128 already did
[11:06] <DktrKranz> and, please, gift him with a huge, red poster saying "use 3rd-party repos at your own risk"
[11:07] <geser> DktrKranz: that was already tried with a wallpaper
[11:08] <DktrKranz> who should I bother to have it on a default installation?
[11:08] <DktrKranz> to have it shown by default
[11:10] <geser> the story was: there was an infamous list of 3rd party repos and someone who ended on this list put a package inside his repo which overwrote the wallpaper for everybody installing his package
[11:10] <geser> soon some people complained about it and tried to get him out of the Ubuntu community
[11:14] <Kopfgeldjaeger> so, uploaded new revision of avidemux... http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=312 feel free to test ;) for me, it builds without problems on feisty and gutsy
[11:19] <pwnguin> hmm. it'd be neat if zoom triggered an xrandr setting
[11:19] <pwnguin> so things like pdf rerender at high res
[11:23] <norsetto> geser: hmmm, he is not by any chance portoguese?
[11:24] <norsetto> DktrKranz: he, that was a nice solution you found for bug 145584
[11:24] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 145584 in gambas2 "[UNMETDEPS]  gambas2 has unmet dependencies" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/145584
[11:25] <DktrKranz> norsetto, I asked a user if it was supported in other archs
[11:25] <DktrKranz> he told me not, so I dropped them completely
[11:25] <DktrKranz> as much as gambas 1 did
[11:26] <DktrKranz> porting to other architecture is targeted in gambas 3, so it could be ok for now
[11:31] <norsetto> DktrKranz: thats what they say in their home page about 64 bits: Gambas cannot work with 64 bits pointers at the moment..
[11:31] <DktrKranz> yep
[11:31] <DktrKranz> but they should have said "Gambas cannot work with nothing than a i386 dusty box"
[11:32] <DktrKranz> since debian ftbfs too...
[11:33] <norsetto> ajmitch: looks acceptable to me, what do you think?
[11:34] <norsetto> DktrKranz: even though we could spare the doc package :-)
[11:34] <DktrKranz> norsetto, let me see...
[11:35] <DktrKranz> norsetto, it does not depends on other packages, but it looks strange to me have gambas2-doc on all ports without no binary packages available
[11:36] <norsetto> DktrKranz: it depends on what is in the rules, most probably they have a binary-indep target which is specific to that package
[11:37] <DktrKranz> no deps at all: http://packages.ubuntu.com/gutsy/doc/gambas2-doc
[11:37] <norsetto> DktrKranz: beside, I could want (I'm strange, I know) to install it on my system just to read the docs
[11:39] <DktrKranz> If you think so, it's quite easy to revert the change :)
[11:39] <norsetto> DktrKranz: and we really don't save any compilation btw, is architecture: all
[11:39] <DktrKranz> anyway, it looks weird to me, but I am surely wrok
[11:39] <DktrKranz> *wrong
[11:39] <DktrKranz> yep, it will be compiled using the same buildd :)
[11:39] <DktrKranz> looking at lintian...
[11:41] <DktrKranz> no, it doesn't report "too big for a binary target" error
[11:41] <DktrKranz> (or similar, I don't remember the exact error...)
[11:49] <norsetto> DktrKranz: here is the complete list of lintian tags: http://lintian.debian.org/reports/tags.html
[11:51] <TheMuso> Hey folks.
[11:51] <DktrKranz> norsetto, is this a full list or simply the ones recorded in debian packages? I'm unable to find that error...
[11:51] <norsetto> DktrKranz: perhaps is only for current debian packages
[11:52] <DktrKranz> np, I'm going to dig lintian to find it
[11:55] <DktrKranz> norsetto, found: "arch-dep-package-has-big-usr-share"
[11:55] <norsetto> DktrKranz: never seen that before ... what is the expanded version?
[11:56] <DktrKranz> norsetto, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/483/
[11:58] <norsetto> DktrKranz: ok, so its in line with our discussion
[11:59] <DktrKranz> yep
[12:00] <DktrKranz> I was worried not to issue that warning (an error, actually...)
[12:00] <DktrKranz> and it didn't
[12:00] <RAOF> Morning TheMuso
[12:15] <blueyed> Do you expect "apt-get build-dep foo" to also do an "upgrade"?
[12:15] <crimsun> no, and it shouldn't unless there are actually updated binary packages since last time update was executed
[12:19] <blueyed> yes, there new/upgradable packages, of course. It does not matter, if I run apt-get update just before.
[12:19] <blueyed> crimsun: see http://pastebin.com/m245fed60
[12:20] <blueyed> This is annoying, because it causes apt-build to fail, when installing build dependencies.
[12:20] <blueyed> (and is confusing anyway IMHO)
[12:27] <blueyed> I'm about to file about it. Does this sound reasonable?
[12:31] <crimsun> it's related to debian 358730
[12:31] <ubotu> Debian bug 358730 in apt-build "apt-build: Builds anyway if builddeps aren't satisfied" [Important,Open]  http://bugs.debian.org/358730
[12:31] <crimsun> you may wish to add commentary there
[12:34] <proppy> someone know a package using makefile.mk cdbs rules ?
[12:35] <crimsun> proppy: apg
[12:36] <proppy> Hope it will help me to figure out why I get dpkg-genchanges: failure: cannot read files list file: No such file or directory
[12:36] <proppy> thanks