jaguarondi_Hi guys, just testing bzr atm. I did a nested branch and 'bzr status' returns it as unknown. Is the normal practice to add these nested branches to the ignore list?12:07
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Vantage13is there an environment variable to set to specify a different bzr lib directory?12:41
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matkorHi ! What is idea beging merging files using olive-gtk and meld ? I get three views BASE OTHER THIS, where should I store final (merged) version ?08:49
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pittiwhoa, the first time in years that bzr really failed for me...09:02
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pittiI checked out a Debian SVN with "bzr get svn+ssh://...", and now try to merge this into a native bzr branch; when doing that, I get09:03
pittibzr: ERROR: Repository KnitRepository('file:///home/martin/ubuntu/hal/hal/.bzr/') is not compatible with repository KnitRepository3('file:///home/martin/ubuntu/hal/hal-debian/.bzr/')09:03
pittiany idea about that/ bzr upgrade'ing the debian svn checkout doesn't work either ("Cannot convert to format <RepositoryFormatKnit1>.  Does not support rich root data.")09:04
Lo-lan-doYou need to convert your branch to dirstate-with-subtrees or something09:05
pittihm, 'dirstate-with-subtrees' does not exist, it is already 'dirstate', and it refuses to convert to 'knit'09:07
Lo-lan-dodirstate-with-subtree, sorry09:11
vilatry dirstate-with-subtree09:11
PengAre you planning to drop pycurl? One comment in a bug mentions it.09:11
Lo-lan-doI'm still confused as to why that format, which was supposed to become the default format around 0.15 or so, isn't even mentioned in "bzr help formats"09:12
fullermdBecause it's its purpose is to enable a feature there's not much of a UI for.  I don't think it's slated to become a default any time soon.09:14
fullermdAt one point, there was a discussion about changing it from a parallel format to a flag, I think.  But that was a long time back.09:15
ubotuNew bug: #147530 in bzr "pycurl http implementation peeks under the covers" [Low,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/14753009:15
Lo-lan-doI see.  But I guess bzr-svn could be a bit more explicit in its error messages then.09:16
fullermdWell, I don't think the error message is coming from bzr-svn.09:16
Lo-lan-doI don't know where it comes from, but I do know it's confusing :-)09:17
pittimeh, now bzr merge excepts out on me; I guess I'll revert the conversion and use classical patch for now09:17
fullermdIt's just a 'normal' bzr, "Hey-your-formats-are-incompatible-I'm-dying-here!" cry.09:17
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vilaPeng: see bug #82086 about dropping pycurl10:33
ubotuLaunchpad bug 82086 in bzr "pycurl transport causes tracebacks if the server's SSL cert cannot be verified." [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/8208610:33
vilafixing bug #147530 will at least gives a better error10:34
ubotuLaunchpad bug 147530 in bzr "pycurl http implementation peeks under the covers" [Low,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/14753010:34
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fullermdvila: What about the "stop making pycurl default if it's around" path that's been discussed a time or two?11:10
vilafullermd: and stop verifying site certificates by default ? I'm really no comfortable with that...11:11
fullermdWell, we're not verifying the certs by default for all the people who don't have pycurl installed.11:11
vilaThere is still the option to make urllib the default for http and pycurl the default for https, but I'm not really comfortable with that wither11:12
vilafullermd: yeah, I know, but windows installs it by default, ubuntu installs it by default, I think debian does that too, so who don't have pycurl really ?11:13
fullermdI don't have it as a dependancy of the BSD port.11:13
fullermdIt's vaguely irritating to know that I could have a working setup with a self-signed cert or whatever, that nevers gives me any problems, then install some unrelated software that happens to install pycurl and suddenly have my branch blow up.11:14
vilaWell, I don't think I'm the one to take that decision, I can implement it though, but I'd feel better with an urllib solution11:14
vilafullermd: you can't have working setup with a self-signed cert unless bzr pycurl http implementation is patched11:15
fullermdSure I can.  I can not have pycurl installed and be using urllib, without having any idea that it's a problem.11:15
vilathinking that an urllib setup works scares me !11:15
fullermd("I" being not necessarily me personally.  Me personally, I don't think I use http with bzr anywhere except for pulling bzr itself, and plugins)11:16
vilaDo you know what was my *first* proposed patch for bzr ?11:16
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fullermdRenaming the command 'vila'?11:17
vilalol, no. it was enabling self-signed certificates (or more precisely disabling certificate validation  for self-signed sites)... 1 year and 1/2 ago I'd say :-)11:18
vilaNow, call me stubborn, but all my http-related activity is aimed at dropping pycurl support (while providing a better urllib impl. though)11:19
vilaSo dropping pycurl while not providing certificate verification11:19
vila... does not fit the bill :)11:19
vilaI tried to summarize in bug #8208611:20
ubotuLaunchpad bug 82086 in bzr "pycurl transport causes tracebacks if the server's SSL cert cannot be verified." [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/8208611:20
fullermdOh, I'm not proposing dropping pycurl; I'm mostly questioning whether it makes sense to use it by default when it appears.11:20
vilaWell, it's true that the subject has come quite often lately, may be a list discussion is in order then11:23
vilaso that all personal preferences and implications can be exposed11:24
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fullermdI don't have a particularly strong opinion, and it certainly doesn't really affect me.  It just seems to come up with some regularity.11:25
fullermdMy going across the network tends to mostly be bzr+ssh   :p11:26
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NamNguyenabentley, ping11:57
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fullermdProb. be a while before he's around.11:58
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NamNguyenalrighty ;-)11:58
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NamNguyeni just hit a problem with bb11:59
NamNguyen2nd time11:59
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LllamaMorning all. Easy question: I've just resolved some conflicts and 'status' tells me I have pending merges. Do I just need to commit for these to take effect?12:49
LllamaLo-lan-do: cheers.12:50
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GaryvdMHi - I'm trying to push to a ftp server. I'm getting this error: http://pastebin.com/m57d74483 - and I am not sure what to do.01:12
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matkorEasiest way to see changes introduced in given revision or since given revno ? Prefereable like kdiff presents changes ?01:59
Lo-lan-dobzr diff -c 123401:59
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GaryvdMI'm still having a problem pushing to a ftp server. It creates a file called /bzr-pushtree/trunk/.bzr/branch-lock/kasvrj7jcy.tmp/info.tmp.1191240308.188999900.3268.156092819202:12
GaryvdMThen dose a RNFR /bzr-pushtree/trunk/.bzr/branch-lock/kasvrj7jcy.tmp/info02:13
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GaryvdMThat file dose not exist.02:13
matkorLo-lan-do: bzr diff ... it is text only ... no graphical tool for that ?02:13
Lo-lan-doOh.  Dunno, maybe in olive-gtk.02:14
GaryvdMThere is bzr-gtk - but it will not show you a sisde by side diff02:14
GaryvdMTry https://launchpad.net/bzr-difftools/trunk02:15
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GaryvdMerr https://launchpad.net/bzr-difftools02:15
harrisony"353 MB .zip file" hmm pain02:18
harrisonyoops wrong window, sorry02:18
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matkorIs there easy way to test (using bzrlib) if at given path there is checkout or branch ?03:55
gabehi, what can i do about this showing up in bzr st?    kind changed:03:55
gabe  emailer/steves_mailer (directory => tree-reference)03:55
matkorI do bzrlib.workingtree.open_containing(path) , what should be next ?03:55
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AnMasterUnable to obtain lock sftp://anmaster@hosthere/var/www/envbot.org/htdocs/bzr/.bzr/repository/lock <-- bzr timed out when I pushed, how do I fix this?, deleting the whole repo dir is not an option04:22
fullermdAnMaster: 'bzr break-lock'04:23
fullermd(of course it's an option.  It's just a really bad one   ;)04:23
AnMasterfullermd, yes because uploading about 50 MB on 128 kbps up for just the main branch will be a PAIN04:23
AnMasterfullermd, I hope this won't leave it in a broken state or so?04:24
fullermdWell, it's a Big Red Button.  If the lock _should_ still exist (like somebody else is writing to it), breaking it could be bad.04:24
fullermdBut if it's just a stale lock from a lost connection or something, it'll be fine.04:25
AnMasteryep I know what it was04:25
AnMasteralso how do I with rspush from bzrtools specify the port that ssh is on? it is simple to do with normal sftp push but haven't found a way with rspush04:26
fullermdThat, I have no idea on.04:26
AnMasterbecause ssh is on non standard port on this host04:26
LeoNerdCan't you just use the .ssh/config  file in the usual way?04:27
AnMasterLeoNerd, I normally do it like ssh -p port user@host but ok04:28
LeoNerdYes; but the config approach has the advantage that all the SSH tools will use it04:28
LeoNerdAnd you don't have to think about it04:28
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mrevellHey guys - I'll be holding the first of our two Bazaar Documentation meetings here on the hour.05:52
fullermdWhat all ground are you intending to cover?05:54
mrevellfullermd: My main aim is to find gaps in the current documentation, so I'm looking for people to suggest areas that they feel are missing from the current docs.05:56
bwintonOoh, in that case, I'm going to run and quickly get lunch and be back here in 4 minutes.  (Hopefully.  Feel free to start without me.)05:57
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fullermdWell, my main bug on that is the Fundamentals stuff, which we've covered on the list.  That, and the lack of a good reference to the commands.06:01
fullermdI've issues with the tutorials, but I think one of the two biggiest (proliferation of partially-overlapping ones) has been resolved since the last time I sat down with the docs.   Been way too busy with work lately   :|06:01
mrevellfullermd: Thanks. I'll get the meeting under way.06:02
mrevellWelcome to this Bazaar Documentation meeting! Thanks for coming.06:02
mrevellThe purpose of today's meeting is to identify gaps in the current Bazaar documentation.06:02
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mrevellMy aim is to help the Bazaar team to find and plug those gaps in time for the 1.0 release.06:02
mrevellI've divided the agenda into:06:03
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mrevell* Is the user reference complete?06:03
mrevell* What is missing from the user guide?06:03
mrevell* What do we want to add the "advanced topics" and "best practice" sections?06:03
mrevellSo, who's here for the meeting? Say "me", if you're here to chat about the docs.06:03
Lo-lan-doNot me, sorry, I'm here to pester jelmer about bzr-svn :-)06:04
fullermdme (somewhat)06:04
mrevellThanks guys, we can keep things pretty informal :)06:04
mrevellSo, my first question:06:04
james_wLo-lan-do: I didn't forward your latest bug as you said that jelmer was already aware.06:05
mrevellWhat do you feel is missing from the user reference?06:05
Lo-lan-dojames_w: Fine by me06:05
james_wmrevell: ^ that one?06:06
mrevelljames_w: That's it, yeah.06:06
james_wso that is generated from bzr help.06:07
mrevelljames_w: My main concern is that every command should be covered, as it's also the bzr help06:07
fullermdI feel that having the 'reference' generated from the online help is a wrong path; the needs of the two cases are totally different.06:07
mrevelljames_w: Right, yeah06:07
james_wit's a good way of getting something together though.06:07
fullermdExamples are a big thing (and good examples often cross command boundaries).06:08
james_wI agree that it is not complete, or ideal though.06:08
fullermdReally need to tackle each command and answer, "when would I use this?", "when would I not use this?", "what side effects can this cause?", etc.06:08
keirexamples are usually what i want in man page type help06:08
keirsometimes it's not obvious how to string together the arguments for a command06:08
james_wyeah, a clear statement for each about whether it modifies the working tree, uses network etc. might be good to have as well.06:09
fullermdThsoe sort of discussions get long, which isn't really suitable for online help (which should be more "remind me what the args/action is" than "describe in detail what each of these things do")06:09
keirusually, some command as only a couple 'common use cases'06:09
james_wfullermd: indeed. It might be useful to have online though.06:09
fullermdReasonable example: merge --reprocess.  Describing just what that does, and when you would/wouldn't want to use it is a couple paragraphs.  Fitting that into an option list summary doesn't work well   :)06:09
fullermdWell.  I'm iffy on that.  If 'bzr help xyz' is more than a screenfull or two...06:10
james_wwith the topics shadowing feature it would be possible to define long help for each command which is shown if you run bzr help topics/command (I think that's the syntax).06:10
james_wyes, not by default, but available.06:10
james_whmmm, short meeting.06:10
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fullermdSee?  The help was too long for him   ;)06:10
mrevellHmm, got disconnected.06:10
mrevellWould it be reasonable to include a link to web based help, if a description was too long for bzr help?06:11
fullermdA good coverage of what sort of conflicts can happen, how you can provoke them, and how to clean them up, would be another thing a ref manual should have.06:11
james_wmrevell: reasonable yes, distros can patch this to point to a local copy as well.06:12
fullermdIt would probably have to be a pretty shallow link.  "For more, see the Bazaar Reference Manual  (online at ....)", rather than a deeper one.  That way would lie madness...06:12
james_wfullermd: there is conflicts documentation, but it needs some work, and I agree it should be in the reference section.06:12
bwintonI agree with fullermd on the link-to-online-docs point.06:13
mrevellfullermd: Why would deeper linking be a problem? Perhaps I'm missing something obvious :)06:13
fullermdDitto for merging; we have some talk about workflows (we have some on the wiki; should emphasize the full continuum from "single shared branch" to "full mesh"), and the merging strategies that work.06:13
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james_wmrevell: are you against having it in bzr then?06:14
fullermdAlso, 3-way vs. weave/knit, why you'd use one over the other, and degenerate cases.06:14
bwintonmrevell: a deeper link will prevent us from radically changing the structure of the docs.06:14
james_wno, you can link to $version.06:14
mrevelljames_w: No, not at all, I was just picking up the point above that some of this might get too long for the internal help06:14
fullermdmrevell: Change between two unsync'd things has bitten me too many times   :)06:14
mrevellAh, thanks fullermd and bwinton06:14
james_wmrevell: ok.06:15
mrevellSo, should we aim for examples for each command?06:15
fullermdAnd of course the pre-mentioned Fundamentals stuff; a good chapter up front on that will save your life many times over later on.06:16
fullermdYes, definitely.  Particularly on the options; when you'd use --xyz on a given command, not just the quickie description of what it does.06:16
james_wmrevell: yes. Covering as many use cases for the command as possible.06:16
fullermd"Why would I use --reprocess?"  "What does --verbose actually mean for this command?" etc.06:16
james_w(we could make bzr help examples/command work).06:17
mrevelljames_w: Do you think there'd be some people who wouldn't want to see the examples?06:17
james_wno, but again consideration of keeping the default help output reasonably short.06:18
james_wI'm not suggesting removing all examples from the help output.06:18
james_wthey are usually the most useful bit.06:18
mrevelljames_w: Just keeping it to a reasonable length06:18
fullermdI consider "bzr help xyz" to mean "I know how this works, remind me of the options".06:18
mrevellfullermd: Great, thanks.06:18
fullermd(the concensus may be that the online help should be more involved than that; just my reflex view)06:19
mrevellAre there any commands that are missing entirely from bzr help, that you know of?06:19
james_wthere are hidden commands, but few of those are useful.06:19
james_w(in general).06:19
fullermdAnd even they have help; they just don't show up in 'help commands'.06:20
mrevelljames_w: I presume they're hidden for a reason, though?06:20
james_wsome commands could do with a brusign up of the help, and a couple of examples.06:20
james_wnot all have helpful help, but yes they are hidden for a reason.06:20
james_wmrevell: are we concentrating on the in-source docs?06:21
mrevellOkay, so the main thing I draw from this is that we need examples in bzr help, covering as many use cases as possible. I also take note of "<fullermd> I consider "bzr help xyz" to mean "I know how this works, remind me of the options"."06:22
mrevelljames_w: Anything that's in doc in the trunk atm.06:22
james_wyes, with a short synopsis.06:22
james_wmrevell: great.06:23
mrevelljames_w: But I'd be interested to hear about docs that are on the wiki and should be moved to the branch.06:23
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james_wyeah, I'm not sure about that.06:23
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mrevelljames_w: Yeah, obviously it'd have to be a special circumstance.06:24
mrevellOkay, unless anyone's got anything else to say about the user reference I'd like to move onto the user manual06:25
james_wgo ahead.06:25
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mrevellI'd like to make the user manual flow a little more and take the user on a journey from introduction through to in-depth, advanced topics.06:29
mrevellThe basic question, though, is again: what is missing from what we have already?06:30
james_wis http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/bzr.dev/en/user-guide/index.html the one you mean?06:30
fullermdWell, not missing, but it's weird that the HTTP smart server doc is separate from, in a different section from, and not linked to, the page that talks about the rest of the smartserver interfaces.06:30
fullermd("not linked to from", that is)06:31
mrevelljames_w: Yes, that's it.06:31
mrevellfullermd: It's linked from the page james_w referenced, isn't it?06:32
fullermdI wonder if the User Manual and User Reference really should be so separate.  It almost seems like it should be one manual, with a spectrum from the relatively linear (step above tutorials) to the more random-access (command reference)06:32
fullermdYes, but there's "Running a Bazaar server" under "Basic Topics", that says nothing about and doesn't link to the bzr+http doc, which is under Best Practices (somewhat incongruously)06:33
mrevellfullermd: Right, yes, "best practices" does seem like the wrong place for it.06:33
fullermdNow, bzr+http setup is pretty long and involved, so it probably should be external to the rather short, simple setup for the other types.  But more closely related than it is.06:34
mrevellI'd propose to turn the user manual intoa tutorial06:34
mrevellthat takes the user from the start of using Bazaar right through to more involved processes. I think the distinction between that tutorial and the user reference would be more concrete then.06:35
mrevellSo, anything that isn't part of the (new) tutorial moves from the user manual to the reference.06:36
fullermdISTM that there are 3 natural divisions.06:37
fullermdOne is the "quick start".  That's the "bzr in 5 minutes", the "here-kid-the-first-one-is-free" stuff.06:37
fullermdThe second is the more miniseries-style tutorial stuff, which are individual pieces, but follow a reasonable progression without too much overlap.  Taht would be the "Learning bzr" sort of doc.06:38
fullermdAnd the third would be the reference.  In-depth discussion of commands and use-cases, lists of config options and revspecs, etc.06:38
fullermdThe second two could be bundled together as a 2-part "book" potentially.  Certainly there'd be a lot of references to (3) in (2), "For more info, see ...".06:39
fullermdThe first would stand alone, and operate more as a hook.06:39
fullermdSorry.  I'm real full of very etheral handwaving, and not so much concrete    :|06:39
mrevellI agree with those divisions. The mini-tutorial (which I've proposed become "Bazaar in 5 minutes") matches the first division.06:39
mrevellGreat, thanks for the feedback.06:41
=== fullermd shuts up for a while.
mrevellthanks very much for your input fullermd :)06:42
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mrevellIf anyone thinks of any other gaps in the documentation - i.e. specific areas where we don't have any or we have very sparse documentation for a particular Bazaar feature - feel free to mail me matthew.revell@canonical, or of course mail the bzr list :)06:43
mrevellI'm holding another of these meetings tomorrow (Tues) at 08.00 UTC.06:44
mrevellThanks everyone :)06:45
mrevellMeeting ends but feel free to contact me any time with docs suggestions.06:45
james_wthanks mrevell06:46
fullermdOK.  The rest of you can get words in edgewise now   ;)06:46
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statikanyone in here figured out how to configure meld to work with the extmerge plugin?09:55
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schierbeckphanatic: mjellow10:14
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phanaticschierbeck: hey, what does that mean? :)10:14
schierbeckhello :)10:14
schierbeckwhat's the status on using "revision history"? i say we go for it!10:15
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dbnHi all10:18
Peng"all" being like 2 people.10:19
dbnHi peng. May I ask you a question concerning bzr 0.90?10:20
dbnI have a problem using the bundle command.10:20
PengYou can ask any question, but I may not know the answer.10:20
Peng0.91 is out, FYI.10:20
dbn:) I give it a try, then.10:21
dbnI have setup a remote repository using bzr serve.10:21
dbnI made a branch from that location, applied some changes and said bzr bundle10:21
dbnbzr now gives a traceback complaining that10:22
dbn'RemoteRepository' object has no attribute '_make_parents_provider'10:22
PengThat's strange.10:23
dbnThat's what I thought. That's why I came here ;)10:23
PengThe usual workflow is to keep one copy of the upstream branch on your computer, then to branch off of that to make changes.10:23
PengMaybe it's a 'bzr serve' bug.10:23
PengReport it on the mailing list, maybe?10:23
PengWell, I guess it's not a 'bzr serve' bug.10:24
dbnIt works well when the remote repository is not contacted via the bzr protocol10:24
james_wyeah, that sounds like a bug.10:24
phanaticschierbeck: okay, i'll wait till tomorrow. if noone has anything against it, i'll merge "revision history"10:25
dbnDo you want me to file a bug report for this?10:26
PengIf you do, include steps to reproduce it and a full traceback ..10:26
james_wdbn: yes please.10:26
dbnProbably I should try out 0.91 first. Maybe this is already resolved ...10:27
james_wyes, it might be.10:28
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dbnOk, thanks. I will gather the steps to reproduce the bug and file it in the bugtracker.10:32
james_wdbn: it is easy to reproduce here.10:33
james_wbzr bundle bzr+ssh://localhost/home/jw2328/devel/bzr/bzr.dev10:33
dbnjames_w: Shall I include that line in the bug report then? Is that sufficient for you?10:38
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james_wdbn: unless you have any more interesting information. I think the problem is obvious enough.10:38
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dbnjames_w: Ok, thanks.10:40
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hsn_bzr packages for windows are on wiki listed as 0.91 but they are 0.9011:02
ubotuNew bug: #147836 in bzr "bzr 0.90.0 bundle command fails with bzr remote repositories" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/14783611:05
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james_whsn_: thanks, that's a known issue. You can get 0.91 if you access them directly, rather than using the current links.11:15
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hsn_james_w: should i fix wiki?11:23
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GaryvdMIs their anyone here that is familiar with the merge_sort code?11:35
GaryvdMI am having a problem where by it does not return revision number 111:35
GaryvdMBut that revision is in the graph and in the mainline11:36
GaryvdMCode here: http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~bzr/bzr-gtk/trunk/annotate/szilveszter.farkas%40gmail.com-20071001083733-mn111f1k16ojsqd8?file_id=graph.py-20051016214152-ebf565808c860cf7#L4711:37
ubotuNew bug: #147860 in bzr "[BUG]  renaming + kind change == assertion failure" [Medium,Triaged]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/14786011:40
GaryvdMOk - found my problem.11:43
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GaryvdMYou need to have revision number 1 at index number 1 of the mainline. Hence mainline[0]  needs to be something else like None.11:44
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