lassegulTiaGo|SouZa: minor changes will probably be made.12:30
TiaGo|SouZalassegul: I heard about the change in the default wallpaper12:31
TiaGo|SouZabut will something change in the icons default set?!12:31
lassegulTiaGo|SouZa: i dont think so12:32
lassegulTiaGo|SouZa: whats the problem?12:32
TiaGo|SouZaI really think the Human set too "cartoonish"12:33
TiaGo|SouZaI'd like to know if that will change12:33
TiaGo|SouZabut aparently not12:33
lassegulTiaGo|SouZa: ok. too late to do anything about that now. there probably will be a change for hardy12:34
TiaGo|SouZalisten, I'd like to participate of this team12:34
TiaGo|SouZabut I really don't know how things are done here12:34
TiaGo|SouZahow the contribuition process happens12:35
lassegulTiaGo|SouZa: hmm, lapo said something about this the other day. let me see if i cant pull out a log for you.12:35
_MMA_TiaGo|SouZa: Are you an artist?12:38
TiaGo|SouZaI do it in my free time12:39
_MMA_Well you could always post you ideas for replacement icons.12:39
lassegulTiaGo|SouZa: i couldnt find the log. i was probably connecting from another computer.12:40
TiaGo|SouZathat's my question, where do I post it?!12:41
TiaGo|SouZaI heard that u have a mailing list, a forum and a wiki12:41
TiaGo|SouZaI'm not familiar with any of those stuff, but I can become familiar anyway12:41
TiaGo|SouZalassegul: :-/12:42
lassegulnothlit: this is why we should have the gallery :D12:42
lassegulTiaGo|SouZa: im really not sure. i would have asked lapo, but he isnt here right now. do you know _MMA_ ?12:43
_MMA_As to where to post?12:44
lassegul_MMA_: yeo12:44
_MMA_Well the Hardy WIKI looks to be in some flux as there are 3 places to put things. I here this will be paired down/consolidated.12:45
TiaGo|SouZado u have a mailing list?!12:45
_MMA_Subscribing to the ML is good as well. https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art12:46
lassegulTiaGo|SouZa: if you want to participate in the upcoming release hardy, join our meeting on tuesday12:47
_MMA_TiaGo|SouZa: But do realize getting a completely new and cohesive iconset done in 1 development cycle is a daunting task.12:47
lassegulTiaGo|SouZa: see channel topic.12:48
TiaGo|SouZahow can I join that meeting?!12:48
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_MMA_TiaGo|SouZa: In #ubuntu-meeting12:49
TiaGo|SouZahey, about IRC I'm familiar..I'm here, ain't I?!12:51
terlmannnot to me :-)12:51
_MMA_What are you talking about?12:51
=== _MMA_ pets terlmann.
=== terlmann pets _MMA_ back , hard
terlmannso what's this saxaphone chap doing here ?12:52
terlmannhow can I help you run him off ?12:53
_MMA_TiaGo|SouZa: Ill assume you think that link is only for IRC n00bs. It contains a list of all the Ubuntu IRC channels.12:53
_MMA_terlmann: Be careful. Of seen the same asked about you.;)12:53
terlmannThat it does , and I have never read it :D12:53
TiaGo|SouZaIt's in my bookmark now!12:54
TiaGo|SouZahow things work in the artwork end?!12:55
terlmann_MMA_ : your comment on 17:54 made no sense at all due to improper english usage :-P12:55
TiaGo|SouZawe submit some wallpapers, sounds, icons, etc, and someone choose what suit best?12:55
lassegulim going to bed. good night guys.12:55
terlmannSouZa : this is a channel where we hang out. at the moment we are waiting for a meeting on october second to determine the theme for the next release12:56
terlmannwe will hold the meeting in #ubuntu-meeting obviously12:56
lassegulterlmann: you have read the meeting topics havent you?12:56
terlmannafter that , yea , we well all crack down and start at stuff12:56
lassegulterlmann: sorry i misunderstood you12:57
_MMA_terlmann: I actually have a list someone made with grammatical errors made by you lately. Im not your student. I dont care. ;)12:57
terlmannsomeone made one ? ! ? !12:58
terlmannI am impressed that you take me that seriously12:58
_MMA_You have a rep your not above. ;)12:58
terlmannmy rep endears me to you chaps , I know it12:58
terlmannI have one in many places12:58
_MMA_Whatever lets ya sleep.12:58
lassegulgood night again.12:59
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terlmannSO : who wants to bet that Hoary will look like dapper (but more brownish ) ?12:59
terlmann(I just asked a trick and introverted question)12:59
terlmannkwwii : will our ol leader be at the meeting or will he be off somewhere plotting ?01:00
=== _MMA_ puts down newspaper in the channel for terlmann's "piddle" and goes to eat dinner.
=== terlmann begins to cut the paper into origami figurines of Wily Coyote , Suuper Genious...
TiaGo|SouZathat pallete will never change?!?!01:02
terlmannTiago : what are you refering to ?01:03
terlmannthe one for ubuntu ?01:03
terlmannO it will change , but kwwii will say when and where01:03
terlmannhe is our resident correspondent with the leader of ubuntu01:03
terlmannwho is obviously in control01:03
terlmannas for the palette, the grapevine says brown and black....01:04
terlmannand some orange01:04
terlmannpersonally I wanted white but i am a nobody :-D01:05
TiaGo|SouZakwwii is the correspondent with the leader of ubuntu?!01:05
terlmannmy telepathic powers arnt up to snuff yet01:05
TiaGo|SouZamark shuftlwork (i really dunno how to write it!)01:05
terlmannol mark is the boss and personally wants a hand in this01:05
terlmannkwwii is here to see it through01:05
terlmannWorthy of Shuttle = went into space01:06
terlmannthink of space :-P01:06
terlmannI think we need a mascot01:07
terlmannI want to adopt a wolf01:07
terlmannor a fish01:07
terlmannreally though , we would do best with a bird01:07
terlmanna duck even01:07
TiaGo|SouZaveryyyy, veryyy goodd!!!01:08
=== terlmann ducks the duck in his head
TiaGo|SouZado u need sounds too?01:17
TiaGo|SouZahmm great01:17
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MisosakiHi luisbg01:45
luisbghey Misosaki01:54
MisosakiHaving a good day?01:55
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coz_morning all09:12
coz_nothlit, hello09:16
coz_lassegul, hello09:29
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Auckla[02:55]  <Auckla> Well here I go to install Ubuntu to another drive.11:57
Auckla[02:55]  <Auckla> I shall see you all hpefully in a few.11:57
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terlmannToday is monday , October the first. Today I back all my documents up :D. Sun is bright , and the moon was ORANGE.04:12
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terlmann23meg ?05:47
terlmannwhat would that stand for...05:47
`23megterlmann, hi05:49
terlmannMeagan ?05:49
nothlit`23meg: any updates on ambassador doings? a thread started towards the meeting?05:55
terlmannhmm ? `23meg is a diplomat with the ToTos ?05:55
`23megnothlit, I don't think there's any need to start a new thread05:58
`23megI did post about the meeting in advance05:59
terlmannyou guys do this on the forums and on the irc ? so the meeting is two-stage ?05:59
`23megIRC only05:59
terlmannmeeting is tomorrow right ?06:00
terlmannI'll be there :-)06:00
nothlit`23meg: oh ok, so just in the megathread?06:00
`23megthe wallpaper thread, yes06:00
`23megto be honest, I'm feeling less and less motivated to do anything about the forums everyday06:01
terlmannWild mountain thunder echoes my quest, My body aches but I'll not rest. Quartz light to guide me, Till sunrise leads. My passion screams, my heart it bleeds.06:01
nothlit`23meg: whats happened/changed?06:03
terlmannsecond stanza of the great Desert Plains Symphony by Judas Priest , if you have not heard it.06:03
`23megnothlit, nothing regarding the artwork, but I just read this: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=56252906:04
=== _MMA_ gives terlmann a pig ear to chew on. Go lay down. :)
=== terlmann throws it at _MMA_'s head
_MMA_Bad puppy.06:05
terlmannbad piggy06:06
nothlit`23meg: still reading the thread, but it seems like similar sentiments echoed in the wallpaper one06:12
`23megnothlit, I think this is worse06:12
nothlit`23meg: even ambassadors can't reach people who don't want to listen, just focus on those who are willing to06:12
kwwiilol, `23meg ...that forum entry is sooo taken out of context06:14
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`23megkwwii, so much that I feel reluctant to post a rebuttal06:15
nothlitlapo: heyas06:15
`23megand there lies the problem06:15
kwwii`23meg: now you know why I do not read the forum ;-)06:15
`23megwhen this kind of thing becomes commonplace, the best solution becomes to just ignore the whole thing, which is a shame06:15
`23megkwwii, I already knew :)06:16
terlmannwith that I guess it will be fiesty forever with me06:16
terlmannI gotta have my bleeding edge and medubuntu :-)06:16
terlmannbut I am not the naive user06:16
terlmannso I might through with it06:17
terlmannassuming I can hack this06:17
lapokwwii: ah congrats again for the wallpaper, I'm still using it and it's nice06:17
nothlit`23meg: the problem with abandoning it entirely is that the people who just want to know whats going on will only hear the complaining side then06:17
kwwiilapo: thanks ;-) post that comment on the forum :p06:18
nothlitbut its difficult to inform and not feed the trolls06:18
lapokwwii: no thanks, I waste enough time on irc already :-)06:18
terlmannany troll not of my species deserves to be shot :-)06:18
=== kwwii runs to the store...brb
terlmannso who here is using ubuntu-fresh for the GDM theme :-)06:20
`23megnothlit, people who want to know what's going on should look outside the forums as well06:21
`23megthat's a problem on its own: most forum users' whole contact with the world of Ubuntu is the forums06:21
nothlit`23meg: yeah, but the difficulty is theres not always a page for each issue there06:21
nothlitjust like this whole thing with the artwork selection06:22
nothlitscattered around wiki pages and in the minds of the participants passed by word of mouth06:22
`23megwell, mailing lists aren't any less structured than forums06:23
`23megand things like UWN, The Fridge and Planet Ubuntu make it easy to follow up on things06:23
laponothlit': there's a nice tool to keep complaints nicelly organized, it's called bugzilla :-)06:23
lapowell launchpad for ubuntu06:23
`23megbut so few people on forums follow those06:23
nothlitor, providing a clear mind/opinion from the 'peer pressure' of the maligning posts06:24
nothlitlapo: yeah, but we're not talking about technical issues, discontent is a serious issue in a community, especially an open source one06:24
laponothlit: you'll always have discontent in a oss community06:25
laponothlit: the way to fix up stuff is filling bugs06:25
laponothlit: naturally a "the new wallpaper is ugly" is not a good bug06:26
lapoif the guy in charge for art looks at the forums, the mailing list, the bugs, irc channel he will do public relation but no work06:27
nothlitof course, but i'm speaking of active forum participants in general06:27
lapopeople will always complain whatever you do, since artistic stuff is by definition a matter of taste06:28
nothlitor irc participants, if there was a misunderstanding, you would probably do your best to clear it up within reason06:28
lapoand everybody has his own different taste06:28
`23megnothlit, regarding the forums the problem is, there's so much to be cleared up with reason that it becomes exhausting, frustrating and disheartening06:28
laponothlit: yes if I have time to do it, and it's not always true, or better quite the contrary06:29
`23megI have limited time and energy I can dedicate to Ubuntu, and with the forums I've been feeling it's going to waste06:29
lapothe problem of furums is the same of mailing list, too much noise06:29
lapoI mean, 3 good posts against 1000 bad ones06:29
lapofor good I mean informative, to the point, selft explicative06:30
`23meglapo, forums are more noisier than mailing lists by orders of magnitude06:30
lapo`23meg: yeah probably06:30
laposo it's even wrost06:30
lapoyou cannot pretend for the people who have to do the work to follow forums06:30
nothlit`23meg: thats why i don't read the forums, only reason i registered at all was for a team election thing06:30
`23megnothlit, I'm heading the same direction06:31
nothlit`23meg: but do a small amount each day and forget the rest if you're committed to this, even a little helps06:31
lapoit should be clear that the forums are not a good way to communicate with the "developers"06:31
lapomailing list can be if the traffic is low enough to be read w/o wasting too much time06:32
lapoan high traffic miling list has the same problems of the forums06:33
=== _MMA_ has increasingly retreated from the forums but it is where all users go. Most people are lazy and want a one-stop-shop. Thats the forums unfortunately.
=== terlmann never goes anywhere but the wiki and irc
nothliti would shy away from advocating for them to use the mailing list06:34
nothlitan issue tracker is best, more official, can be discarded, and less opportunity to spout06:34
laponothlit: an issue tracker has the exact same problem06:34
lapotoo much stuff in, too much time needed to find good infos06:35
terlmannonly 30% of users use it06:35
lapoI really think the best way too communicate is irc for discussions and eventually and issuetracker06:35
terlmannIRC FTW06:36
lapodiscuss on irc then open a bug06:36
lapoif you're too lazy to do it, that means that you don't care enough about the issue so it's just for the sake of whining :-)06:37
_MMA_terlmann: Source for the 30% please?06:37
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terlmann_MMA_ : you know where.06:38
terlmannmy &$$06:38
lapoa community is driven by the guys who do the work and if the guys who do the work do public relations all the time no work will be done06:38
lapothat's the main problem :-)06:38
terlmannno pr needed. Just link all works to some voting threads06:39
lapoterlmann: I don't really believe voting will work06:39
terlmannyes it does06:39
terlmannit does , trust me06:39
terlmannyou havn't tried it :-)06:39
lapodesign by community cannot work06:40
lapoyou'll end up with something boring all the time06:40
laposince you have to try to please anyone06:40
terlmannuse the wiki to create all entries and link them to the forums for voting06:40
nothlitvoting works, just by developers rather than community06:40
terlmannvote after the creation phase06:40
nothlitunless you think debian is a failed project06:40
lapothere's should be one in charge with a clear vision of what do to06:40
laponothlit: don't take debian as an example please :-)06:41
terlmannwell , kwwii , but I be in charge of him...06:41
laponothlit: sould I need to pronounce the word sarge? :-)06:41
lapoand anyway artwork is something different then technical stuff06:41
terlmannME ME ME06:41
terlmannI can lead art into the 22 century06:42
terlmannOnly I know what good art looks like :-)06:42
terlmannbecause I have never seen any :-P06:42
lapoin gnome there's an art director (which is on the channel actually) which has the last word06:43
terlmannThat should be me06:43
laposince if you end up with an endless discussion the work will stop, and it should never happen06:43
terlmanngimme gimme06:43
terlmannactually the discussion is after art is finished lapo, then we will have motivation06:43
terlmannwho wants gold prize ?06:43
terlmannwe should do this like worth100006:43
lapoterlmann: do about half of the stuff andreasn did and I'll sponsor you next time :-)06:44
=== _MMA_ laughs as terlmann desperately begs for attention. Cute little puppy.
terlmannyour alive !06:44
lapoandreasn: I was speaking about how design by community cannot work :-)06:44
terlmannanyway , we should do this  , like I said :-P , like worth1000 does photoshopping contests.06:45
nothlitlapo: andreasn has veto power? :o06:45
andreasnhm, yes, apparently06:45
terlmannwho here visits worth1000 weekly ?06:45
terlmannand how many of you think that if it was up to a contest the artists would do their best ?06:46
terlmanna paid contest even06:46
terlmannwith gold receiving a personal chat with sabdfl06:46
lapoterlmann: you can do it for the wallpaper probably06:46
nothlitthats pretty much what impression people got this time around anyways, from what i've been told06:46
lapobut you need more then one guy to do all the stuff, so it won't work imho06:46
terlmannlapo : and gtk , and gdm06:47
terlmannyes it will . there will be more than one winner , that is all.06:47
lapoterlmann: the point is that the same guy should do the wallpaper, the icons, the gtk theme, gdm and so on06:47
lapoplus bug the devs to fix this and that thing to make the design working06:47
terlmannI do not think one person has that talent06:47
lapoterlmann: that's why it cannot work06:47
terlmannjust because one guy does a masterpiece does not mean he can make Icons or such06:48
lapothat's the point06:48
terlmannlapo : hold a wallpaper , gdm , and gtk contestr06:48
nothlitwow, the two art sites are back up06:48
terlmannseperate the components06:48
lapoall the arty stuff has to be coherent so all the authors have to follow the same direction06:48
terlmannunite the gold and silver entries for a finalls06:48
lapoterlmann: you'll have a mishmash then06:48
terlmannyea right. as if they won't be using the SAME palette.06:49
lapothe palette is not enough06:49
lapoyou can't define a style with the palette alone06:49
terlmannit really is. Icons are all one component , sound is another , gtk is a third , and wallpaper/gdm is a fourth.06:50
lapoyou'll need a lot guideliness which will be more expensive to write or maintain then doing the real work06:50
terlmannI can write those , thank you.06:50
lapogood luck then :-)06:50
terlmannI prefer some variety instead of repitions of the same old boring theme06:50
terlmannwhy cannot the icons be orange while the background is brown ?06:51
terlmannit's called intelligent contrast06:51
lapoterlmann: let's speack about guideliness, to write them you'll need a lot of experience and if you find that something needs to be changed you'll have to change all the work done already06:51
nothlitlapo: well, diana has done a good job of the wallpaper/gdm/bootsplash/gnome/kde splash/cd06:51
terlmannwell ,06:51
lapobetter to work directly on the stuff06:51
nothlitlapo: with some help on the technical stuff of course06:51
terlmannhold on lapo06:51
terlmannhere is my pretheme06:52
laponothlit: yeah, she doesn't work at rh anymore tho :-)06:52
lapoterlmann: uhm...there's nothing in it06:53
terlmannI can polish that up after the meeting , but nowit is making another page at /hardy (no ideas in adress name ) that people are already posting to06:53
terlmannwhat ?06:53
terlmannlapo ?06:53
_MMA_Problem is there's 3 pages for the Hardy art ATM. That will all need to be combined and distilled.06:53
nothlitlapo: btw, i hope you know i didn't delete your original page, just moved it into the category https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Ideas?action=recall&rev=106:53
laponothlit: my original page?06:53
nothlit_MMA_: for the one page loading mess like gutsy?06:53
nothlitsorry s/lapo/terlmann06:53
terlmannlapo : this is my page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HardyIdeas06:54
terlmannand it still exists06:54
nothlit_MMA_: consolidation will happen after the meeting06:54
lapoterlmann: but there's nothing in, just generic technical giudelines06:54
terlmannthat is my point06:54
terlmannI can write guidlines06:54
lapoterlmann: that's has no use :-)06:55
terlmannI can write them better after the meeting06:55
terlmannI need more info on the direction we are going06:55
lapoterlmann: those are not artistic guideliness06:55
terlmannlots more06:55
_MMA_nothlit: No. One base page with link to sections from it. kwwii like what I did with Ubuntu Studios bit I think it still needs a little tweaking. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming06:55
terlmannright , as I do not have any artistic guidelines yet06:55
lapoubuntustudio stuff is better already, but too vague06:56
lapothere are examples at least06:56
terlmannok . lapo , I will make these guidelines you are referring to after kwwii expresses the boss's intrests06:56
lapobut it's still not a guideline which will garanty an uniform style06:56
terlmannI can't go jumping the gun06:56
lapoterlmann: I'm not saying I believe guideliness will work tho :-)06:57
terlmannI can make it uniform , believe it06:57
terlmannbut like I said , some variety is good.06:57
lapoterlmann: so you know how to make icons, gtkrcs, metacity themes, wallpapers, gdm themes?06:57
_MMA_lapo: For you its vague. If you dont understand the concept then the art you would produce would suffer. People in the scene get it instantly.06:57
terlmannnot that , lapo, I am going to give you that much time of mine06:57
terlmannespecially for gtkrcs06:57
lapo_MMA_: it's surellt for my, I speak for myself :-)06:58
terlmannor .desktop  files06:58
terlmann_MMA_ you express my feelings exactly.06:58
lapo_MMA_: the examples there are a lot different, I cannot say I'll do something that style06:59
_MMA_lapo: I was speaking generally also. :) Not aimed at you.06:59
terlmannconcept MUST be understood , or else the theme will suffer , whether one person does it or one million.06:59
terlmanngot that ???06:59
lapoterlmann: sure, but the concept is the tip of the iceberg06:59
terlmannactually it is the tool that will shape the theme07:00
terlmannsome people never get it07:00
lapoterlmann: If I were you I'll try to use the time to actually produce something working, then talk about it07:00
terlmannand we get GREEN for wallpapers07:00
terlmannlapo : I am a manager. I don't do the art myself , because I want to let others do the work for me. :_P07:00
terlmannWE CANNOT START until the MEETING07:01
lapoterlmann: why?07:01
terlmannyour lost , clueless ,07:01
terlmannand a whole lot more07:01
terlmannwe are going in a DIRECTION for hardy07:01
terlmanna different one than feisty07:01
lapoterlmann: if you do something which is nice that can be the direction07:01
_MMA_terlmann: lol. "I am a manager." really? You're terrible at speaking to people and its a key factor to management.07:02
terlmannno , lapo , I cannot07:02
lapoterlmann: so your reasons will be less taken seriously for sure :-)07:02
terlmannMark Shuttleworth has some ideas on how hardy should go, and we must obey/07:02
nothlitmanagers often need to be the most capable and experienced people07:02
terlmannyea, I am experienced07:02
nothlitterlmann: cool, what sort of art background do you have?07:03
_MMA_Im sorry. It doesnt show.07:03
terlmannterrible at speaking ? I have kept you occupied for 30 minutes :-)07:03
lapodemostrate it then :-)07:03
terlmannsorry lapo , not until after the meeting07:03
terlmannthe meeting comes first07:03
_MMA_terlmann: One day you'll get it puppy. ;)07:04
terlmann_MMA_ : shove it. I have surpassed you already.07:04
=== terlmann listens to Grinder by Judas Priest
_MMA_Keep baiting. ;)07:05
nothlitbtw, the first meeting is just infrastructure basically, not artistic direction07:05
terlmann_MMA_ : not baiting. Shove off.07:05
terlmannthis meeting is going to be artistic direction.07:05
terlmannI have it on word from kwwii07:05
terlmanndon't you think LTS releases are going to be something important, like more than normal ?07:05
_MMA_terlmann: Which way is the wind blowing and whats the humidity where you're at?07:06
terlmannblowing to the north and humidity is null07:06
nothlitLTS is for redefining/rebranding ubuntu07:06
terlmannthis is a lts release07:06
terlmannright ?07:06
nothlitterlmann: you have lots of experience? do you have any designs/paintings i can see? always interested to see people's work07:06
nothlityeah hardy will be LTS07:07
terlmannnothlit : I got mine removed when I pissed off some gentoo nerds07:07
lapoterlmann: experience, which oss project has your contributions?07:07
terlmannstory telling time over.07:07
nothlitterlmann: you don't have any of it stored yourself?07:07
nothlityou can dcc away :D07:08
terlmannI always delete it07:08
terlmannIT doesn't have any appeal to me to keep bad work07:08
lapoterlmann: I only reading words, I'm not seing actuall work done :-)07:08
terlmannI can ddc you someone elses work07:08
=== Skiessi [n=qwe@dsl-roibrasgw1-ff90c100-219.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
terlmannlapo : I only writing words, and I think that counts as work :-)07:09
nothlitlol, i can look up other peoples work myself fine :)07:09
terlmannsomeone has to speak out , or no one will learn07:09
lapoterlmann: that's the point, it doesn't :-)07:09
nothlitspeaking out doesn't make people learn, doing does07:09
lapoterlmann: tango guideliness are written by people how worked on icons for ages07:09
lapoterlmann: how can I trust your guidelines?07:09
terlmannwhat did god tell abraham and noah ?07:10
_MMA_"Shove off."?07:10
terlmannlapo : no matter how old a person is and how long they have done something , they could have been doing it WRONG all along07:10
terlmannever think of that ?07:10
lapoI don't think so in that specific case07:11
lapoI did some bg and stuff and I know how to do it more or less, but I'm not confident enough to write a guideline about it, how can you do it?07:11
lapoand how do you think people will listen to you?07:12
laporemember it's oss, you don't have a stuff of payed guys whos job is to follow your direction07:12
lapoyou need to gather people interest07:12
terlmannlapo : confidence is everything . If I try my best , and know what I am doing , I can beat anyone. :)07:12
lapoand you need to gather the *RIGHT* people interest07:12
terlmannVirtue is like a rich stone,best plain set.07:12
lapoit's not usefull to have a thousand minions on the forums which hails you w/o doing nothing :-)07:13
lapoyou need to fing the right people working with you for their own pleasure07:13
lapoand believe me it's not as easy as it seems07:13
_MMA_lapo: +107:14
lapothe people have to respect deadlines and need to finish the work they said they would have done07:14
lapothat's the big issue07:14
nothlitconfidence is not everything, its often dangerous--its more important to make sure people work together07:14
lapomaking a comunity is black magic07:14
lapoand you surelly need influent (for filed merits) involved07:15
terlmannI say we do it on the wiki and send everything to the forums for voting afterward , organized into themes. person A's background with B's gtk - theme A and so forth.07:15
lapoterlmann: good luck, imho the result (if any) wil not be nice07:15
terlmannwell let's do this two ways07:16
lapoterlmann: fedora artwork was good cause diana was leading07:16
terlmannlapo : lets do this in two parts for hardy : you control the actual artwork for this theme and I test the idea of voting for themes on the forums.07:17
terlmanncan we shake now ?07:17
lapoI don't want to control anything07:17
_MMA_lapo: I personally plan to have a single discussion thread about Ubuntu Studio's art. We'll just distill things from there but as far as voting on every little detail, it wont happen. Will slow work down too much.07:17
lapoI just work on stuff I'm interested in07:17
terlmannnot every detail , that will be silly07:17
lapo_MMA_: good07:17
terlmannbut having a few themes and several choices is a good idea07:18
lapo_MMA_: ubuntu studio is going in a nice direction anyway07:18
nothlittheres no point in discussing voting or control now, its not going to mean anything07:18
lapothere's no point in discussing most of the time, work count :-)07:18
terlmannnothlit : if I get a thousand votes , will it mean anything then ?07:18
lapo"I have this work done, do you like it?" "how can I improve it?"07:19
lapothose are the contructive discussion imho07:19
nothlitprobably not anymore than a 33 page forum thread or a petition07:19
lapoterlmann: I don't think so, work cound as I said not words :-)07:20
terlmannnothlit : I mean , I put up two or three unified themes of artwork that have been completed and offer a no-post voting thread with downloads and voting enabled07:20
terlmannand screenshots07:20
nothlitvoting doesn't mean anything, its not up to the community07:21
laposomething which is so and so which kinda please that crowd will win07:21
terlmannwhy not?07:21
terlmannwe will be using it07:21
nothlitsabdfl will choose what he thinks is right for the product, same as any president of any other corporation07:21
terlmannStephen Vincent Benet - Litany for Dictatorships, 193507:21
terlmann- We thought, because we had power, we had wisdom.07:21
terlmannI wanna talk to el powerful sometime07:21
ubotuMark "sabdfl" Shuttleworth is our favourite cosmonaut, the founder of Canonical and the primary driver behind Ubuntu. You can find pieces of his thinking at http://www.markshuttleworth.com07:21
nothlitanyways, the d stands for dictator07:22
_MMA_terlmann: PM him on IRC. :)07:22
terlmannthat guy wanted nakkid chicks once apon a time right ?07:22
lapoterlmann: he usually answers even07:22
nothliti don't know who was in charge of that, but it was naked people07:22
terlmannwell the guy is nice and rich and like rich people are , somewhat clueless about things that they do not spend time on :-)07:23
lapoterlmann: tell him07:23
terlmanngotta get familiar with your peons07:23
_MMA_terlmann: Like lapo said tell him. :)07:24
terlmannI will07:24
terlmannand if he does not answer..07:24
=== terlmann smirks
=== terlmann thinks of fake steve
=== terlmann thinks of fake mark
nothlitthings they do not spend time on?07:25
terlmannhow much time does he spend in here?07:25
nothlitthere you are incorrect, he spends much time on ubuntu, you can see him during community council etc07:25
terlmannhow many posts does he have on the forums , and how many emails does he send to the mailing list ?07:25
nothlitor some council07:25
terlmanncouncils ehe07:25
terlmannI gotta get me a council-catching gun07:26
nothlit'sabdfl' you can check yourself if hes identified07:26
lapoterlmann: the few time I had to speak with him he always anwsered by irc07:26
_MMA_terlmann: I bet. You'll most like do like every other person likes to do. Talk crap without ever having said a word to him. I guarantee you if you actually have a conversation with him you'll be a fan-boy. _HE'S_ management. ;)07:26
terlmanntalk crap ?07:26
nothlitupper ups, usually don't post on the forums etc even if they read them often07:26
terlmannactually I can get very serious07:27
terlmannright now I am playing with you :-P07:27
nothlitbut you can google through the mailing lists yourself and see07:27
lapohe is surelly a good leader btw07:27
_MMA_nothlit: Ive got him to post to the forum a couple of times. He does it if he know about something.07:27
terlmannwell I will see07:28
terlmannif he is a good leader I may just like him07:28
=== _MMA_ happily awaits the day when terlmann stops playing with us all. ;)
lapo_MMA_: you're an ubuntustudioer right?07:34
_MMA_http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/12/1449201&from=rss and http://www.bsdcan.org/2007/schedule/attachments/12-Poisonous_People_Ben_CollinsSussman_and_Brian_Fitzpatrick.pdf07:34
_MMA_lapo: Im its oft tired leader yes.07:34
lapo_MMA_: I'm playing with it latelly, nice work07:35
_MMA_The Feisty version?07:35
lapo_MMA_: current07:35
_MMA_Gutsy daily?07:35
lapowell packages on gutsy07:35
_MMA_I see.07:35
_MMA_Our big differences come in the disk installer.07:36
lapoI'll install the release I think07:36
lapoif you need some icons (tango style) feel free to ping me07:36
_MMA_Cool. :)07:36
lapo_MMA_: since you're here can you suggest me a nice (and cheap) ieee1394 recording equipment07:37
lapowhich work nicelly with ubuntustudio07:37
lapo_MMA_: I already have some tango style icons for the applications I use, I'll send them upstream, but if you need them ping me07:39
_MMA_lapo: Well 1394 Im really insure of since Ive never tested the stuff. Some guys in #ubuntustudio might be able to help. I know firewire support is one of the things we're working on but support for those devices are a crap-shoot.07:39
_MMA_lapo: As for the icons I have no clue whats gonna happen with them in Hardy so who knows. :)07:41
lapo_MMA_: if you'll go tango style I'll surelly help out07:42
lapo_MMA_: tango style != tango icon theme eh07:43
terlmannonly really07:43
lapoterlmann: it's oss you're free to use whatever you want if you don't like it use something else07:44
_MMA_lapo: I know whatcha mean. :) Our current set uses some Tango.07:44
andreasnertz stuff?07:44
andreasnhe did a nice job on that07:44
terlmannthat's the icons i want07:45
terlmannDAPPER look FTW07:45
lapotangerine was a mistake07:45
terlmannactually I really liked it07:45
terlmannreally liked it07:45
terlmannreally really07:46
terlmannlight orange goes so good with my picture of oranges07:46
lapothanks, but it wvolved in an icon theme which was not its scope07:46
lapotango style is the only way to have coherent desktop btw07:47
lapotroy_s: around07:47
lapoI have a folder design based on a troy folder which probably I should use in an experimental icon theme07:48
nothlitlapo: that u2 folder is slick :)07:49
laponothlit: it's troy stuff not mine07:49
lapoI just touched it up a lbit07:50
andreasnlapo: screenshot?07:50
nothlitlapo: your redesign is slick then :P07:50
kwwiiterlmann: just to get things right, please do not say that for hardy we want any brown in the artwork...once again: we want black and orange07:50
lapoandreasn: uhm not sure I have them around07:50
terlmanno yea07:51
lapokwwii: black and orange? sounds cool07:51
lapokwwii: darkness!07:52
_MMA_Halloween. :D07:54
lapoandreasn: http://xoomer.alice.it/bat/troy/troys-folders.png07:54
lapo_MMA_: sue them tho! :-)07:54
kwwiilapo: yeah, wait till people start bitching about that07:54
andreasnlapo: neat07:55
terlmannI'm gnna SUE SUE SUE !07:55
lapokwwii: they would bitch whatever you do don't worry :-)07:55
andreasnlapo: the shape looks a bit tricky to make out what it is, but I mean, one will get used to it pretty quick07:56
andreasnlapo: and it actually looks like a folder :)07:56
kwwiilapo: no doubt07:56
=== terlmann is now known as terl|is|away
andreasnmy favorite is the striped folders though! :)07:56
andreasnkwwii: did you ever see the striped folders?07:56
lapoandreasn: it's a tad complex but It *could* work07:56
lapoandreasn: I care about your eyes, delete them immediatelly! :-)07:57
nothliti loved the rainbow folders lol07:57
lapoguys that was actually a joke don't use it, it's clearly stated in the readme07:57
andreasnthe internet seems to have forgotten all about them....07:57
kwwiiandreasn: nope, which ones?07:58
kwwiistriped tango folders?07:58
andreasnkwwii: well, it was mostly a weird joke from lapo07:58
=== lapo is not responsible of any damage to user eyes, use at your own risk
=== terl|is|away is now known as terlmann
andreasnnah, can't find any trace of them....07:59
andreasnah! yay!07:59
kwwiinot sure why we are discussing icons....doesn't everyone know that we are going to use crystal icons now that kde is done with them? :p07:59
=== terlmann begins to cy
kwwiiterlmann: the more you say no the more I want to actually do it :D08:00
terlmanndon't you dare start using that crappy overworked set of smut08:00
laponaah crystal is a nice piece of artwork08:00
terlmannand everyone uses it08:01
andreasnkwwii: heh08:01
lapotango as usability points on it, but it's cool08:01
kwwiiI was everaldos boss and made quite a few of those icons08:01
andreasnkwwii: nice work on the small sized oxygen folders btw08:01
kwwiiandreasn: dude, we probably spent more time on the folders than all the other icons combined ;-)08:02
lapoas usual08:02
terlmannwhy use what everyone uses ? kwwii : work has to be original. you just can't go using the same thing over and over. as for icons, what about an orange version of the icon theme snowish ?08:02
lapokwwii: and are surelly the more bitched about :-)08:02
kwwiilapo: yeah, every time we changed them someone complained08:02
andreasnkwwii: :)08:02
kwwiiterlmann: it was just a joke, settle down08:02
lapoI think andreasn can feel your pain08:03
nothlitrecolouring a theme is reuse too08:03
terlmannnot if noone use the original them08:03
lapolook at andreasn running away screaming08:03
terlmannavio is what I based ubuntu-fresh on] 08:03
lapoandreasn: WALLPAPER! :-)08:03
andreasnwell, regarding folder icons Jakub probably have more experience at people being stupid about them :)08:03
kwwiiterlmann: we will be looking into replacing human with something different but it'll have to be something that uses the tango guidelines as the new gnome icons use them08:03
terlmannsnowish then08:04
terlmannsnowish svn08:04
terlmannI mean svg08:04
terlmannhave you seen it ?08:04
terlmannI could dcc you a copy08:04
nothlitterlmann: btw, svg only icon themes is good, pixel versions are needed for all the small sizes08:04
kwwiibtw, if we are going to make new icons we will probably have an open contract for someone to work on them if anyone is interested08:04
nothlitis not good*08:04
nothlitkwwii: a bounty or contract?08:04
kwwiilol, dcc to the server my irssi is running on08:05
andreasnlapo: I can of said the background was going to be a placeholder sort of, but I wonder if I keep silent, noone will bring it up again08:05
kwwiinothlit: a contract once we convince you-know-who08:05
_MMA_terlmann: Seriously I think yo uneed to take it down a notch. You're being way too forceful/demanding.08:05
=== lapo points his finger at a random swede here
lapoandreasn: eheh08:05
terlmann_MMA_ jea08:05
=== terlmann settles down
lapokwwii: andreasn is interested in doing the icons08:05
lapoadreasn: RIGHT?! :-)08:06
laponeed to run,ciao08:06
kwwiilapo: I was already thinking of him ,-)08:06
andreasnlapo: why do you always throw stuff at me?08:06
nothlithow is the kde wallpaper contest going btw08:06
terlmannkwwii : give me one moment08:06
kwwiinothlit: it is basically done, we are waiting for responses from all the winning entries so that I can announce the winner (and light the flame)08:06
terlmannone moment ,pls , to find you an artist for the icons08:06
andreasnkwwii: are you going to the ubuntu-meeting-thing in boston btw?08:07
kwwiiandreasn: yepp, i have to - part of the job08:07
kwwiiactually, I have to be there for two full weeks08:07
terlmannplease take a look at this08:07
andreasnkwwii: I'm thinking of coming there, as I won't be going to the gnome boston summit08:07
terlmannlucky kwwii08:07
terlmannI would love to travel the country :-)08:07
kwwiiterlmann: that is very osx-ish08:08
kwwiidon't really like the folders either08:08
andreasnseems the smaller sizes needs some hinting08:08
terlmannyea , but we could beat him into changing it a little :-D08:08
terlmannor a lot08:08
kwwiiandreasn: let me know if you need any help getting there or such...I can talk to my boss08:08
nothlita redesign would be wiser08:09
andreasnkwwii: well, that would probably be nice08:09
terlmannseen this yet kwwii ?08:09
terlmannthis is brown08:09
terlmannvey vey brown : too brown. you want orange08:10
=== terlmann kills the artist with a rubber ducky
nothlitits far better to create new artwork with a clear purpose and direction than modifying exisiting artwork and kludge it to fit08:11
kwwiia bit too muddy looking08:11
=== terlmann kills the artist with a rubber ducky again
nothlitterlmann: if you're cruising gnome-look, look for potential rather than their existing work as assets08:12
terlmannthat's right08:13
=== terlmann converts nothlit into a potentialicity finder and uses his body for a skateboard
terlmannthis guy08:15
=== terlmann arrests taimila for making a good-looking orange for ubuntu
terlmannhere he is on gnome-look08:16
kwwiiterlmann: dude, there is not going to be a decision on this for a long time...and in any case we would need to make mockups from all of this to convince those in charge to even do it to begin with08:16
terlmannI am just gathering dust for you to sniff08:17
nothlitinvite/email them if you want to make the process known to them08:17
terlmannsneeze all you want , its not bothering me08:18
_MMA_terlmann: I think it would be better on the WIKI.08:18
_MMA_Things get lost here.08:18
_MMA_Send all your ideas to a wiki that comes later.08:18
_MMA_(after tomorrows meeting Im guessing)08:19
terlmannlost already mma. I am just scoping out artists for kwwii to empress ( as in grab and throw them on his pirate ship to work to death )08:19
kwwii gotta take the kid to bed, bbl08:20
_MMA_If you agree its lost here than make notes to put on the wiki later.08:20
terlmannmake notes for these guys ?08:21
=== terlmann makes a manual log
=== terlmann is done
nothlittheres no winning or losing here08:22
nothliteither the entire community wins or loses, its not an individual thing08:22
terlmannI am not in this for me, just to let ya know :-)08:22
terlmannI am in this for all of us08:22
terlmannUbuntu represents something to me08:22
terlmannI love it08:22
terlmanndoes anyone know if there is a multiplayer gnometris/tetris game ?08:23
_MMA_nothlit: I took it as he agreed his ideas are lost just throwing them in IRC.08:24
_MMA_nothlit: Not anyone specifically lost.08:24
terlmann_MMA_ : I keep logs. I will bring this back up 10000 times.08:25
terlmannas for the wiki , I want feedback.08:25
terlmannnot everyone wants to edit a wiki page08:25
_MMA_terlmann: Why/what will you "bring back up 10000 times"?08:26
terlmannI will keep a log and remember my topics , and I will mention all of them in any conversations i have on this , and at the meeting.08:26
nothlitas long as you stick to the agenda :D08:27
_MMA_terlmann: But you just agreed that mentioning them here gets them lost. So whats the point of "bringing this back up 10000 times" or "in any conversation"?08:29
terlmannjust joking08:30
terlmannstating my commitment08:30
_MMA_Thats fine but man Im telling you spamming the channel isnt gonna get you what you want. And that mostly looks to be attention.08:31
terlmann_MMA_ : trolling is an essential part of politics. Bush does it all the time.08:34
=== terlmann elbows _MMA_ a little
_MMA_I realize now you're joking but trust me, this wouldnt fly in the development channels.08:35
terlmanngot it08:36
terlmann -artwork off-topic tolerance = 150% of tolerance in -*08:36
terlmannI got to talk to sabdfl a little08:37
terlmannhe seems ok08:37
nothlitterlmann: oh you started a dcc? resend08:38
nothlityou're using port 008:39
nothlitWarning: Port sent with DCC request is a lowport (0, unknown) - this isn't normal. It is possible the address/port is faked (or maybe someone is just trying to bypass firewall)08:39
terlmanncould be faked08:39
terlmannI use port 888708:39
terlmann* Connecting to chat.freenode.net ( port 8001...08:40
terlmann192.168.0.105 : 3704008:43
terlmannis where it is going out08:43
terlmannI think this is at your end "U"08:44
nothlitits the same client that was used last time you sent08:45
nothlitbeen open this whole time, no changes08:45
terlmannI changed a setting08:45
nothlitsend to nothlit`alpha08:45
nothlityeah, neither of them can connect, and one isn't run by me08:46
terlmannmust be xchat08:46
=== terlmann kicks his xchat in the head
=== terlmann [n=terlmann@] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Leaving"]
=== thorwil [n=thorwil@p508950A5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== _MMA_ waves.
_MMA_thorwil here is largely responsible for the look of Ardour2. ;)09:39
thorwiljust icons and sliders. the colour theme ain't my job :)09:40
lassegulHi people.09:43
lassegulAnyone got any clue on how many will show up for the meeting tomorrow?09:43
_MMA_I will.09:44
lassegul_MMA_: :) good, you have a clear overview then.09:44
_MMA_I think. :)09:45
thorwilooh, 17:00 utc is 19:00 in gmt+2 (germany)?09:46
thorwilmaybe i'll come in late. i'd likely be more of a lurker, anyway :)09:47
dmccallI will :)09:52
troy_slots of chatter09:58
troy_slapo did some nice work on that folder icon.09:58
lassegultroy_s: that folder was beautiful09:59
troy_sexcept that 48 and less size debacle09:59
lassegultroy_s: kinda looked like a flower09:59
troy_swe should probably work harder on getting the bloody smaller resolutions sizes out of block hell.09:59
troy_slassegul: Yeah lapo did a rework on some u2 bits I did.09:59
troy_slassegul: He did an impressive job on them.09:59
lassegulkwwii: u2 bits?10:00
lassegulah sorry, i mean troy_s10:00
troy_slassegul: hit tr then tab you get me.10:00
lassegultroy_s: and i understood waht u2 was10:00
lassegultroy_s: :-)10:01
=== nysosym [n=nysosym@hlle-4db18d07.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
troy_slassegul: Unfortunately since the deluge of requests, u2 has backseated.10:04
troy_slassegul: Unfortunate.10:05
lassegultroy_s: i wanted to have a look at it again, but i couldnt find it. link?10:06
lassegultroy_s: forget it. i found it :P10:07
troy_slassegul: There should be a full bzr repo on launchpad.10:07
troy_slassegul: If you have anything you think works, let me know.  I'll happily try to integrate it.10:08
nothlittroy_s: do you actually use a tablet for inkscape work? i end up just using an optical mouse10:22
troy_snothlit: I can't really do much work without something to start with from my hand.  So yes, tablet.10:22
nysosymwork with vektors in much easier with a mouse i think10:22
lassegultroy_s: yeah actually, i loaned a tablet, but i couldnt get used to it.10:22
troy_snothlit: Although in the case of clean splines, I actually find it easier to detail it on paper via traditional means and ink it in inkscape.10:23
troy_snothlit: Rather like oldschool comic artistry.10:23
troy_snysosym: I would probably disagree.10:23
troy_snothlit: The most useful feature of Inkscape is the one that I still haven't seen reported much -- the calligraphy tool -- which I use more or less as an all around painting tool.10:23
troy_snothlit: You can rapidly build up to thousands of sketch shapes -- easily modded into singulars via ctrl shft +10:24
nothlityeah, its pretty neat, some of it has been moved to the tweak tool though10:24
troy_snothlit: It simply feels so much like the evolution of digital artwork that it is difficult to go back to any raster tools.10:24
troy_snothlit: Having those shapes as 'entities' and the strokes all individual is priceless.10:25
=== nothlit still likes the idea of "old school" style concept art in painter
troy_snothlit: That's just it... if you change the blend modes you can get that oil based feel.10:26
nothlitits slower that with enough layers, especially with complex images that its easier to just repaint the whole thing/area than edit nodes10:26
troy_snothlit: If you stay away from blurs while you do your basics, it is very responsive.10:27
troy_snothlit: The real trick is to utilize a workflow as you build upwards.10:27
nothlitand i hate the inorganic aspect of it, as great as it is for design10:27
troy_snothlit: For example (I think I told lassegul this little trick) to export a layer once you are close and import it as a snapshot.10:28
nothlityeah he relayed it10:28
troy_snothlit: That is why the calligraphy tool with tremor / wiggle is amazing.10:28
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lassegultroy_s: you did. and its still a pain in the ass to get used to but its necessary10:28
nothlittroy_s: have you updated your svn lately?10:28
nothlittroy_s: all that functionality has been moved into the tweak tool, plus more10:28
troy_snothlit: You can finesse it right into your desired zone and you do away with all the starchy spliney feel.10:28
troy_snothlit: I just built it.  Lol.  I suppose I should sudo make install.  I generally do a build once every week or so.  More if instability happens and I need a revert.10:29
=== nothlit is too OCPD to introduce additional nodes until absolutely necessary/the last minute
kwwiianyone here speak french well?10:29
troy_skwwii: Someone does extremely well... can't remember.10:29
troy_skwwii: What's the need for french?10:29
nothlitus two canadians can't speak enough french :P10:30
kwwiiI received an email from a french guy about artwork stuff and I have no idea what he is talking about10:30
troy_skwwii: Uh babelfish?10:30
lassegulkwwii: i know a little french10:30
kwwiifirst he asked if we could do the meeting in french :p10:30
troy_skwwii: Yet more of the frontier of global communication woes.10:30
kwwiiand now he sent me an email with a link to a french forum with some ideas10:30
lassegulkwwii: you must learn french then translate on the fly.10:30
troy_skwwii: As is timezone hell.10:30
kwwiino doubt10:31
troy_skwwii: One of the reasons that IRC simply sucks in the modern world -- those nasty time zone differences.10:31
nothlitirc needs more sophisticated offline messaging10:31
troy_snothlit: Or just a mailing list.  lol.10:31
nothliteither that or we all move to jabber10:31
nothlittroy_s: yeah but thats less spontaneous/freeflow10:32
troy_snothlit: It's no wonder that some of foss ends up being a big clump of a given country sometimes.10:32
kwwiiwe have a wiki and a mailing list....yet people want a forum and a gallery, and and and10:32
kwwiiI think that if we thin things out too much it will only get worse10:32
troy_skwwii: Too much.  I don't think I could stress that enough.10:32
lassegulkwwii: i agree, but i think we should prioritize the gallery10:33
troy_skwwii: Especially, as I tried to be painfully clear earlier -- for people who work full time with careers in the industry etc.10:33
nothlitthe wiki is just horrible lol, GutsyIdeas is proof of the mess10:33
lassegulnothlit: +110:33
=== _MMA_ wont rest till he gets pumpkins on the default Ubuntu wallpaper.
troy_snothlit: Is it the wiki or the people contributing?10:33
nothlittroy_s: both, but the medium is not ideal for this sort of thing10:33
troy_snothlit: Seems logical to me to NOT submit 10000000 res images... apparently I am near alone on that.  Imagemagick does the trick well.10:33
nothlitnah, i've thumbnailed a few images on the wiki, and mma as well10:34
troy_snothlit: Once again, I would probably suggest that it would take at least three cycles to get people into a workflow.  It will not happen overnight, and it takes patience.10:34
nothlit_MMA_: as kwwii stated, hardy will come out during the opposite time of year of halloween :P10:34
lassegulnothlit: we should find out how to reduce our arenas. or at least keep the important stuff on to just a couple of them.10:34
_MMA_nothlit: Yeah, I know. Total shame. :(10:34
lassegultroy_s: how can one use time to get used to putting artwork in to a gallery in stead of a wiki page?10:35
troy_slassegul: More or less done.  The biggest gap is the fact that _someone_ needs to check on the forums.  Of course, this is rather irrelevant if there really isn't anything to discuss.  lol.10:35
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nothlitwell, the best thing is if we could move everything to some sort of project management system for artwork i suppose10:35
nothlitbut i doubt thats going to happen10:35
troy_slassegul: The point you are missing is that the wiki is tied to launchpad.  It has a great upside to that if someone ever cared to utilize it.10:36
troy_slassegul: Wiki pages attached to Launchpad specs automatically inform all team members of changes progress etc.10:36
troy_snothlit: No reason.10:36
lassegultroy_s: but so few does. then what does it matter.10:36
_MMA_nothlit: Great management of the Ubuntu art can happen with the tools we now have. Just needs someone to take things by the horns. ;)10:36
troy_slassegul: I think that's the point.  :)10:36
troy_s_MMA_: There isn't anything to manage.  Hard to grab horns on a dog.10:37
lassegultroy_s: i know about the saying "dont fix it if it isnt broken" but as you say yourself, per se its a dog, not a bull. we must make it a bull.10:37
_MMA_troy_s: You just needed to comment on something didnt you? :)10:37
nothlittroy_s: you guys want everything to be on <one> system10:38
troy_slassegul: I am all for expanding complexity when needed.  My question is -- is it needed?10:38
nothlitimo, it reduces complexity10:38
troy_slassegul: When all of this fever started up it was over nothing that anyone in the community really had any control over.10:38
lassegultroy_s: lets avoid complexity10:38
_MMA_nothlit: I think between bzr, the ML, WIKI and some forum feedback things will work fine. :)10:39
nothlityou can read the email if you want, don't want to rehash things10:39
troy_slassegul: And that, in the end, is exactly what I am getting at.  Hell... to a certain extent, it is purely a communication gap -- "Hey guys -- this is going to be the default wallpaper."10:39
_MMA_Its just that that is a job in and of itself.10:39
lassegultroy_s: the gallery is the communication!10:39
lassegultroy_s: or at least part of it.10:39
lassegultroy_s: so is the wiki.10:39
troy_slassegul: Wrong.  Not if people are looking in the forums.  Again it is all about audience.  The forums are the FIRST touchpoint of an average Ubuntu user.10:39
troy_slassegul: Further down the list might be a wiki, then mailing list, then last probably IRC.10:40
lassegultroy_s: where would a gallery land?10:40
troy_slassegul: Web based stuffs provide the agency for an _average_ user.10:40
troy_slassegul: "Oh yeah guys, we also have a gallery."10:40
kwwiithe biggest problem until now have proven to be: 1) not enough information beforehand and 2) not enough information during the final stages ...none of that has anything to do with the media in which the information is given10:40
nothlitlassegul: between forums and wiki, hopefully10:40
lassegultroy_s: i would think it would land right after the forums.10:40
nothlittroy_s: have you read my email?10:40
troy_s+1 to kwwi.10:40
troy_skwwii even.10:40
troy_slassegul: Really?10:41
lassegultroy_s: yeah.10:41
troy_slassegul: I would take some side betting on that.10:41
troy_sIt is simply a point place.10:41
troy_sReally, this could just as easily been solved in an Ubuntu weekly news posting by kwwii.10:41
lassegultroy_s: but we probably wont do it, so i save my money :)10:41
troy_sIn fact, that might make it the most accessible place.  Further still... digg gets around to it when people care.  lol.10:42
troy_snothlit: WHERE DID MY TREMOR GO?!?!10:42
nothlittroy_s:  https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-art/2007-September/004112.html10:42
kwwiiI do agree that we need some help with keeping people up to date on things...using launchpad correctly, updating the wiki and sending more mails to the list as well as having meetings and having a few people to handle the forum side of things would help10:42
nothlittremor? huh?10:42
lassegultroy_s: 10% reads those news postings. 5% visits the wiki. kwwii the information was out there, it wasnt broadcasted good enough.10:42
troy_snothlit: inkscape.10:42
troy_snothlit: That posting again begs the question "WHY"10:43
nothlittroy_s: into the tweak tool, the one that looks like a wave10:43
troy_snothlit: grr.10:43
nothlitshift+f2, roughen parts of paths10:43
troy_snothlit: NOOOO10:43
troy_snothlit: WTF.10:43
kwwiilassegul: there is a lot of information that needs to be given in advance: what is our target audience, what is the palette, which stylistic direction do we want to go, etc.10:43
troy_snothlit: How the hell are you supposed to make strokes with tremor... oh lord.10:43
lassegulkwwii: I agree...10:44
kwwiisome of that I was afraid to define for fear of making a mistake and some of it I purposely held back to increase peoples creativity (wrongly)10:44
troy_sits still there.10:44
kwwiianyway...time for bed. tomorrow will be a long day I thikn10:45
lassegulkwwii: i may be wrong on this one. My gut tells me that 99% of deviantart user wont be able to use launchpad.10:45
lassegul50% wont be able to use wiki pages.10:45
kwwiisomeone is supposed to start a forum thread now in which they disagree with my decision that tomorrow will be long day10:45
troy_sLast time I checked sabdfl has complained on more than one occasion that his view of colour is that anything greater than monochromatic "confuses the palette" -- his words.10:45
kwwiilassegul: launchapd will be the work of myself and a few others who understand the process10:46
kwwiithe wiki will be usefull and need to be understood10:46
kwwiibut if I can learn to use a wiki anyone can10:46
lassegulkwwii: ?10:46
troy_slassegul: Launchpad is deadly easy.  Produce your work.  bzr push.  wow.10:46
kwwiiheck, you can edit a page and then just cut and paste things on a wiki10:46
troy_sthat said, where is sabdfl in all of this?10:46
troy_slassegul: Do you really want anyone doing any work who can't edit a wiki page?10:47
nothlittroy_s: a.u.c gets 30,000 visits per week now already--people visit the site already, its a good place for people to get to what they really want to see, images, and still allows for comments10:47
kwwiiI have talked to him a lot about this and he stands behind me to give support and direction which I will then broadcast10:47
lassegultroy_s: Maybe not.10:47
nothlittroy_s: it makes more sense and would be easier to use than the wiki for concept art and displaying progress10:47
kwwiibecause we are going in a new direction I have much more chance to change things and therefor less fear of making a mistake by not "doing what he wants"10:48
troy_skwwii: Yes, but what about the tougher questions -- like implementing a palette etc.10:48
lassegulTHen we have to organize the wiki much better than it is organized today.10:48
troy_skwwii: He seems to nod his head early, and shake it later.10:48
kwwiitroy_s: I will take care of that (already started really)10:48
troy_s(and by palette I don't mean bloody brown and black obviously.)10:49
kwwiitroy_s: luckily I went through creating an entire set of artwork for the mobile stuff which he liked (that took a long time) so I know where I stand on things this time around10:49
nothlittroy_s: not just people who will take as active an interest, or community participants at all can take a look10:49
troy_snothlit: Arguably that isn't really healthy either.  Have a look at gnome-look's top rated 'look' -- its a knockoff.10:49
lassegulnothlit: yeah, this will keep the angry mob back somewhat.10:49
lassegultroy_s: we arent going for user voting anyways.10:50
nothlittroy_s: but the forum users are going to demand a way to give feedback, comments on an image won't turn into a revolt like a thread, easy to maintain and scan as well10:51
troy_sweird... I can't get my tablet up now.10:51
nothlitgutsy on a whole, sounds broken, and is for me atm10:51
troy_snothlit: Make no mistake -- I am 100% for transparency and always have been as everything I have said is hopefully a testament to.10:52
troy_skwwii: Where is the set?10:52
troy_snothlit: That isn't the set.  I would be interested in seeing the set.10:54
kwwiinothlit: that is one mockup, but that shows you the idea10:54
kwwiitroy_s: it is still be produced10:54
kwwiibut the ideas behind the art are set10:54
kwwiiwe have had lots of technical difficulties10:54
troy_sweird... ok /dev/input/wacom is properly sym'd to /dev/input/event4 but nothing works.10:57
troy_si wonder if i should be pulling directly from event4 for a test... grr.10:57
lassegulkwwii: last thing: are you serious or joking about crystal icons in ubuntu?10:58
nothlitlassegul: joking looool10:58
lassegulnot that they arent nice and all :)10:58
lassegulwell im going to give cheerios another shot. I had a bad experience with them last night. The milk was old, so i was gonna throw it out, but to liquid for the trash can, to solid for the sink, i flushed it down the toilet. But those damn cheerios wont sink!11:01
troy_sWhoa.  Don't eat any more green smarties.11:02
=== troy_s [n=troy_s@d206-116-6-170.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
troy_swell that blows.11:05
troy_sdoes anyone here have a tablet working under gutsy?11:11
_MMA_Mine does.11:11
troy_s_MMA_: How?  Did you do anything?11:15
_MMA_I have the normal stuff done. wacom-tools installed and a tweaked xorg.11:16
troy_s_MMA_: Apparently Gutsy properly sets wacom.11:17
troy_s_MMA_: But for the life of me, I can't get mine to do pressure sensitivity now.11:17
troy_s_MMA_: It works, and after the standard cat / dev/input etc I know I have the right one.11:17
_MMA_Ill pastebin my wacom bits of my xorg.11:18
troy_s_MMA_: But both gimp and ink are giving me 'no extended input devices found'11:18
_MMA_troy_s: Here's all I have in my xorg for wacom: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/3930711:21
troy_shrm... did you make that?11:22
troy_sand if so... when has 'usb ON' been in the xorg?11:22
troy_scrossing fingers -- _MMA_ you rock.11:24
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troy_sgrr... still nothing.11:25
troy_show ... weird.11:25
_MMA_To answer your last question, its the one Ive been using since Dapper I think. http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2515111:25
troy_show bloody weird.11:26
troy_sit's there... nothing different than the past four versions of ubuntu i have done.11:26
troy_sbut it refuses to come up under extended input devices.11:26
_MMA_hmm.... Inkscape and GIMP both work here.11:27
troy_swell WTF11:27
_MMA_I dont think it matters that Im on the -rt kernel.11:28
troy_sshouldn't no.11:28
_MMA_Ill check -generic.11:28
troy_si wonder if the usb mouse is confusing it.11:28
_MMA_troy_s: I run a USB mouse here. Can you test to make sure your pad is showing as an event?11:32
troy_s_MMA_: Yeah it is working -- I can control the cursor with it and get the output on the cat /dev/input/event411:34
_MMA_But no pressure?11:35
_MMA_Oh I see. Its acting like a mouse.11:35
troy_s_MMA_: It apparently works, but isn't coming up under extended input devices for either G or I.11:36
_MMA_troy_s: Does "sudo wacdump /dev/input/wacom" output anything promising?11:37
troy_swell lets see11:37
troy_sworks fine11:37
troy_spressure buttons everything11:38
troy_show strange11:39
_MMA_Looks like its recognized by the system just not the apps.11:40
_MMA_/me digs a bit.11:40
troy_s_MMA_: Exactly.  And it appears in normal working order.11:40
troy_s(II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "Configured Mouse" (type: MOUSE)11:41
troy_s(II) XINPUT: Adding extended input device "Generic Keyboard" (type: KEYBOARD)11:41
troy_sDoesn't seem to want to add anything else.11:41
_MMA_This just started right? And what model is it?11:42
troy_s_MMA_: This one is the shitty Graphire.11:42
=== _MMA_ loves his Graphire2. :)
_MMA_Which one though?11:43
troy_s_MMA_: They work great for quick and dirty bits, but my intu is just a better unit.11:44
troy_sErm methinks this is a 2.11:44
_MMA_Odd. Thats should be golden then.11:45
troy_sMight be a 1.11:45
troy_sHonestly can't remember.11:45
_MMA_I hope to get a intuos. :)11:45
_MMA_Well wacdump should tell you the model.11:46
_MMA_Oh I can dream... http://www.amazon.com/Wacom-Intuos3-12X19-Tablet-PTZ1231W/dp/B000E6IJ6C11:47
troy_sBugger that... go straight to Cintiq11:48
troy_sAHhh... might have it... sendcoreevents were commented out.11:49
troy_slet's see..11:49
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_MMA_Is that good?11:50
troy_s_MMA_: Remind me that when we finally meet each other in real life to buy you a beer.11:50
_MMA_If I drank. :)11:50
troy_sYikes.  Another one.11:51
troy_sOk lattee.11:51
troy_slatte even.11:51
_MMA_Just make me a pallet for Hardy and we're even. ;)11:51
troy_s_MMA_: Lol.  Defer to higher brains.  Use a Krause to avoid bikesheds.11:52
=== kwwii can't sleep
=== _MMA_ brain is mush ATM. I hope to get it done this week.
kwwiidoes a cintiq work with linux?11:52
troy_s_MMA_: Then when the inevitable 'XXX is YYY', you can simply reply "Well this is designed by the guy who has developed high level ad campaigns for MS, Apple, and a few other small companies.  Please forwards your comments to him."11:52
troy_skwwii: I would think so.11:52
troy_skwwii: Can neither confirm nor deny, but I would expect the same tech under the hood.11:53
kwwiihrm, maybe I should buy one...tried one out for a week on windows - never tried it on linux11:53
troy_skwwii: I could ask my buddy at Technicolour.11:53
_MMA_kwwii: http://linuxwacom.sourceforge.net/index.php/main11:53
kwwiitroy_s: if you think about, ask him - I would be interested to know11:53
troy_sOnly 2700 bucks.11:54
troy_snot horribly useful unless you do inking11:54
_MMA_ Graphire 1, 2, 3 & 4, Cintiq & CintiqPartner, Intuos 1, 2, & 3, Volito 1 & 2, PenPartner 1 & 2, PL & DTF, Bamboo11:54
troy_sat which point it is a useful tool.11:54
kwwiitroy_s: yeah, but I can take it off my taxes11:54
kwwiiI've been working on the design of my friends rally car and motorcycle - that would be really cool to have long term11:55
_MMA_troy_s: Have any links re: creating palettes?11:55
troy_sHere is your answer from http://linuxwacom.sourceforge.net/11:56
troy_sSupported USB Devices11:56
kwwiiI have an intuos2 and 3 but it is so much nicer working directly on the monitor11:56
troy_sCintiq & CintiqPartner11:56
_MMA_troy_s: Already posted. ^^^11:56
kwwiiyeah, just saw that11:56
troy_s_MMA_: Fecker.11:56
troy_s_MMA_: DIe.11:56
=== kwwii tries to go back to sleep
troy_s_MMA_: Depends on how you want to start.  If you start out with basic colour theory, the defacto best tool online thus far is colorscheme211:57
_MMA_troy_s: Joe's gotta get the Trem server back up so I can chomp your head. ;)11:57
troy_s_MMA_: Trem no work here cuz the nasty nvidia drivers suck for Gutsy.11:57
troy_s_MMA_: Which blows.11:57
_MMA_? Odd. They rock here for my 7950GT and Dell 2405.11:58
_MMA_Which card do yo uhave?11:58
_MMA_*you have?11:58
troy_s7300 with 256 (its older)11:58
troy_sthey are completely flakey as in freezups and the rest of it.11:58
troy_sor it is a gutsy thing (of which no one seems to care yet on launchpad)11:58
_MMA_Oh that should be totally fine. nvidia-glx-new or nvidia-glx?11:59
troy_s_MMA_: Well from what I have seen, it appears to be nvidia-glx-new -- I can't get nvidia-glx to take11:59
_MMA_How odd.11:59
=== _MMA_ has to tinker more with Agave and colorscheme2.
troy_s_MMA_: As much as I would like to run with gl accel.12:00
troy_sagave is weak compared to colorscheme12:00
troy_sto quote the best adage I have ever heard regarding colour theory...12:01
_MMA_Oh come on... You gotta be quicker than that.12:01
_MMA_Taking forever to Google eh? ;)12:02
troy_s_MMA_: Looking for the real quote you bugger.12:02
troy_s_MMA_: It's very relevant.12:02
troy_s_MMA_: Most people have zero clue regarding colour palettes.  They tend to start with a colour and give some sort of close hue variant and call it a 'palette'.12:03
troy_sLike Orange/Yellow and black or white... _NOT_ a palette.12:03
troy_s_MMA_: A palette is more or less sculpted out of the basics -- Analogous, Analogous with Variation, Split compliment, Triad, or Quad.12:04
troy_sMonochrome I suppose is a 'palette', but certainly not ideal.12:04
troy_s(although all colours are ultimately wound into that complicated mess of contemporary design meets theory etc.)12:05
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_MMA_Well Ill get something together with colorscheme2 and you give me a "looks good" or beat me about the head with some art snobbery. ;)12:06
troy_s_MMA_: Naw.  It comes down to so many factors.12:06
troy_s_MMA_: There was even a good push of dissonant not too long ago.12:07
troy_s_MMA_: Value is probably the most important factor to watch for initially.  Then test them against each other.12:07
troy_s_MMA_: Remember though, the human eye colour corrects which is why, again, it is important to have a non monochromatic schema.  If the eye sits in a spread of monochrome, it will tune it out.12:07
_MMA_Oh jesus man. I feel like you're saying "The only guidelines are there are not guidelines". :)12:08
troy_s_MMA_: That's what I am saying more or less.  That's the nature of art.  Color Scheme 2 will give you pure math though.12:08
=== _MMA_ packs up his toys and goes home.
troy_s_MMA_: Start with your base, plug it in, and work your way around to a set that feels good for you and what you are hoping to deliver.12:08
troy_s_MMA_: DIY look might be good to stay bold for example -- maybe compliments?12:09
=== _MMA_ fires up Firefox.
troy_s_MMA_: Make sense?  Analogous might not deliver that start contrasting feel... but it is tough to speculate.12:09
troy_s_MMA_: Colour just doesn't live alone.  Context.12:10
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_MMA_troy_s: 009BF9 what about "Tetrad"?12:12
troy_s_MMA_: Yep.  Great contrast there.12:13
troy_s_MMA_: You can also walk your way around if you are trying to deliver say, 12 or so colours... meaning grab onto an angle that you like, and choose one of the colours as your 'basic secondary' and flesh it out as your new 'primary'.  Make sense?12:15
_MMA_I like the Green that comes from "max" "Angle/Distance"12:17
_MMA_troy_s: Ill bbiab. (wifes home)12:20

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