[09:51] <lapo> hi
[11:25] <kwwii> hi lapo
[11:26] <lapo> ciao kwwii
[11:26] <lapo> the updated bg is nicer, bravo
[11:27] <lapo> there's a bit more banding but it's less grainy
[11:30] <kwwii> thanks...it is a lot lighter, seemed like a good trade off to me
[11:39] <lassegul> kwwii: you have a link?
[11:40] <lassegul> good morning btw.
[11:50] <kwwii> lassegul: it should be in an update to the package if you are running gutsy
[12:11] <lassegul> kwwii: im at work.
[12:11] <kwwii> lassegul: hrm, check it when you get home :-)
[12:11] <kwwii> lassegul: it is the one I showed a few days ago
[12:12] <lassegul> ok.
[12:13] <kwwii> http://sinecera.de/warty-final-ubuntu.png
[12:15] <lassegul> very good.
[12:15] <lassegul> thx
[12:19] <kwwii> np
[01:19] <andreasn> kwwii: the meeting-thing was at 17:00 today, right?
[01:20] <andreasn> was it in here or in #ubuntu-meeting(?)?
[01:20] <nothlit> ubuntu-meeting
[01:20] <nothlit> its not for another 6 hours
[01:21] <kwwii> andreasn: yepp
[01:21] <kwwii> a little more than 5.5 hours from now
[01:21] <andreasn> 17:00 regular german/swedish time, or uk time?
[01:22] <kwwii> 17:00 UTC
[01:22] <kwwii> so 18:00 in the UK, 19:00 CET
[01:22] <nothlit> andreasn: the wiki link has the time conversions by country for europe
[01:23] <andreasn> nothlit: url?
[01:23] <nothlit> -!- Topic for #Ubuntu-Artwork: Meeting Tuesday Oct 2nd in #ubuntu-meeting (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings has a list of topics)
[01:23] <andreasn> heh, sorry :)
[01:23] <nothlit> lol, no i was just too lazy to extract the url specific part :P
[01:59] <kwwii> the best way to hide information is to put it in a wiki :p
[02:02] <lassegul> kwwii: when people go here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork they dont see the subpages?
[02:03] <kwwii> lassegul: they are too lazy to scroll down to the bottom I guess
[02:04] <kwwii> I want ot redo that page so that things are much clearer
[02:04] <kwwii> with more direct links, etc
[02:05] <lassegul> kwwii: when was site navigation placed at the bottom. People arent used to that.
[02:18] <kwwii> lassegul: about two years ago
[02:18] <nothlit> lassegul: i put a link to the hardy page on the artwork page
[02:18] <nothlit> lassegul: and the hardy page has a bolded blurb about the meeting
[02:18] <nothlit> lassegul: the site navigation thing is an automatic wiki feature for subpages
[02:22] <lassegul> nothlit kwwii sorry, i understood this, i was just saying, its very seldom you come across sites that has site navigation at the bottom.
[02:23] <kwwii> lassegul: perhaps we should move it to the top
[02:24] <lassegul> kwwii: that sounds smart.
[02:28] <kwwii> lassegul: one of the things i would like to do at UDS is to straighten out the entire /Artwork wiki format and fill it with usefull information
[02:34] <lassegul> kwwii: absolutely
[02:48] <trunx> heyho
[02:48] <nothlit> hihi
[02:49] <trunx> im the "new one" ... so im here for the first time :)
[04:56] <terlmann> meeting in three hours :-)
 kwwii: when people go here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork they dont see the subpages?
 lassegul: they are too lazy to scroll down to the bottom I guess
[04:57] <troy_s> You can move that autoscript subpage accumulator to the top or whatever.
[04:59] <lassegul> troy_s: good. ill look into that.
[05:00] <lassegul> ok ill leave now. see you guys later at the meeting.
[05:18] <newz2000> when is the meeting, a little under 1 hour 45 min from now?
[05:20] <terlmann> yea
[05:20] <terlmann> UTC 1700
[05:21] <newz2000> thanks
[06:46] <bersace> Soo, meetings in 15 minutes ?
[06:47] <nothlit> yeah
[06:49] <bersace> :)
[06:55] <kwwii> anyone who isn't there yet...the meeting is starting in 5min in #ubuntu-meeting
[07:00] <bersace> :x
[07:00] <Misosaki> lols
[08:01] <lassegul> The only time I really need it, my internet goes down.
[08:01] <bersace> hh :)
[08:02] <lassegul> it never does. and im  a support guy employed by my ISP.
[08:02] <lapo> ok, so what we ended up with? :-
[08:02] <lapo> )
[08:02] <troy_s> LOL
[08:02] <_MMA_> damianvila: You need to identify your nick or we cant talk in PMs. :)
[08:03] <Misosaki> When will the next meeting be?
[08:03] <lassegul> UDS?
[08:03] <damianvila> _MMA_ For some strange reason, it does not recognize my password :-P
[08:03] <damianvila> I don't know how to recover it :-P
[08:04] <lassegul> damianvila: http://freenode.net ?
[08:04] <troy_s> damianvila: Reset it with Nickserv methinks.
[08:05] <damianvila> I'll try... (I'm pretty lame with IRC, as you can see)
[08:06] <nothlit> _MMA_: /quote NICKSERV SET UNFILTERED ON
[08:08] <lassegul> brb
[08:10] <terlmann> I stayed away during the meeting
[08:10] <terlmann> wanted to see how it went
[08:10] <terlmann> naturally I think you all did it wrong :=D
[08:10] <terlmann> but I degress
[08:16] <Misosaki> When will the gallery system be up?
[08:16] <troy_s> Misosaki: It is funny, every time everyone starts talking about u-art, it turns to this other website -- art.ubuntu.com.
[08:16] <nothlit> no wonder why the fedora wiki is clean, they all sign a contributor agreement with a gpg key
[08:17] <troy_s> Misosaki: I said long ago that it is a PITA to maintain a site and a good number of people (including sabdfl) insisted it happen.
[08:17] <troy_s> Misosaki: It sat there for god knows how long untouched.
[08:17] <troy_s> Misosaki: Much like the site prior to it.
[08:17] <nothlit> Write this all up in a page right here on the wiki, and add it to the "List of Submissions" section below. Please do not ask a friend to upload it for you - you must sign the Fedora CLA before we can accept your artwork for potential inclusion in Fedora.
[08:18] <terlmann> ok
[08:18] <Misosaki> troy_s: What other options are there?
[08:18] <terlmann> I am here
[08:18] <terlmann> time for the private after the meeting meeting
[08:18] <terlmann> nothlit
[08:18] <troy_s> Misosaki: One person use imagemagick to moderate the incoming submissions and organize them.
[08:18] <terlmann> we need to work together on documentation
[08:18] <newz2000> troy_s: one problem with art.ubuntu.com is that it has been horribly difficult to contribute
[08:19] <troy_s> Misosaki: A singular vision for a wiki page goes a long way -- as is exemplified by that Fedora page.  That said, the moderating wouldn't probably stop there.
[08:19] <troy_s> Misosaki: Personally, kwwii should probably be the one moderating -- as a good 98% of the submissions on the Gutsy hodge podge would probably not be there.
[08:20] <troy_s> Misosaki: He is the one hired by Canonical and trusted with that capacity.
[08:20] <troy_s> newz2000: Didn't see you here.  Good to see you old friend.
[08:20] <Misosaki> troy_s: Yes. Only thing is, he's but one person, and he has other commitments too.
[08:21] <newz2000> and you troy!
[08:21] <terlmann> I will help him
[08:21] <terlmann> :-D
[08:21] <terlmann> troy_s : all he needs is me whispering in his ear
[08:21] <troy_s> newz2000: The problem with any site is that to stay healthy it needs monitoring etc.  I really feel that the FOSS community has many other options without complicating matters.  But again, I was outside of the majority on that view two years ago.
[08:22] <newz2000> ok, just hit send on my proposal the mailing list
[08:22] <newz2000> nothlit: ^
[08:22] <troy_s> Misosaki: Hrm... I suppose it depends on one's ability to generate work.
[08:22] <Misosaki> troy_s: To a point, yeah.
[08:22] <troy_s> Misosaki: Moderating isn't exactly a chore, and it can't be done by anyone outside of Canonical.  Plain and simple.
[08:24] <Misosaki> troy_s: Well, that's a little problem. Maybe some people would like to help, except they don't know how.
[08:24] <troy_s> Misosaki: Unless you speak of some externalized community -- at which point it would probably make sense to simply have someone who the interested people trust to moderate.  Pretty sure that there are a few newer faces that are interested in doing something like that.
[08:25] <troy_s> Misosaki: I still am unsure how much room for change there is or 'help'.  Help is a relative term.
[08:25] <_MMA_> troy_s: It will get moderated by 1 or 2 people for sure. Working with kwwii so as to let him concentrate on the art.
[08:25] <Misosaki> troy_s: Possibly. Though not sure if the authorities are keen on that.
[08:25] <troy_s> Misosaki: That's the bigger thing I was getting to.  ;)
[08:26] <Misosaki> troy_s: nods :)
[08:26] <nothlit> newz2000: ok i'll take a look
[08:27] <newz2000> I may have sent it from the wrong address... trying again
[08:28] <Misosaki> I voted for the gallery system mainly because there seems to be interest in having some kind of powerful CMS to organise and display incoming work.
[08:28] <Misosaki> A means to an end, really.
[08:29] <troy_s> Misosaki: Still wondering what or where that end is.
[08:29] <Misosaki> When it comes down to the basics, I'm not particularly concerned what system is being used, but that the system will be properly maintained.
[08:30] <Misosaki> troy_s: Heh. There have been inklings of that the past 1-2 weeks. Nothing quite definite yet.
[08:30] <newz2000> crap, it went twice. Sorry. :-(
[08:31] <Misosaki> troy_s: Frankly was hoping today's meeting would settle part of that.
[08:31] <troy_s> Misosaki: The two key questions -- Audience and Communication -- would probably be a high level canonical decision.
[08:31] <troy_s> Misosaki: I think we would be seriously out of depth to pretend to be able to even come close to getting on point.
[08:32] <Misosaki> troy_s: Yeah, unsurprisingly.
[08:32] <troy_s> Misosaki: Even further, it might very well be that the Audience could be 'business desktops' -- at which point all of this is probably more well served by an extremely uber-conservative gradient style sterility.
[08:33] <Misosaki> troy_s: Up side is, at least people are willing to talk. Down side is ... well.
[08:34] <troy_s> lol
[08:35] <troy_s> Misosaki: It cracks me up when people say 'new users of the os' as though that is an audience.  It certainly is a broad sweeping generalization, but a 15 year old new user is far different than a 38 year old one.
[08:35] <Misosaki> troy_s: There isn't anything wrong per se with uber-conservative gradient style sterility ... still counts as an aim, in a way lols.
[08:35] <troy_s> Misosaki: Look no further than Apple to see well directed communication.
[08:35] <troy_s> Misosaki: Absolutely!
[08:36] <Misosaki> troy_s: nods
[08:36] <troy_s> Misosaki: But I think what a lot of people are looking for in their desktops is more personality -- a more outspoken 20 something sentimentality?  I don't know if the high levels of Canoncial are necessarily in line with that.
[08:37] <troy_s> By 'a lot of people' I mean the ones voicing the traditional vocals.
[08:37] <Misosaki> troy_s: Personality?
[08:38] <troy_s> Misosaki: A communication.  A personality.
[08:38] <troy_s> Misosaki: Something that speaks something in relation to the person using it.
[08:39] <Misosaki> troy_s: Yeah ... though the docs have yet to clearly indicate the line of the authorities.
[08:39] <troy_s> Misosaki: I wouldn't be holding my breath.  At a high level Steve Jobs is well aware of the importance of those sorts of issues and is largely the reason Apple has seen a resurgence - it tackles a very specific audience and communicates extremely effectively to them.
[08:40] <troy_s> Misosaki: The iPhone is an exercise in limitations, and extremely successful because of it.  There isn't a single menu in the entire default system.
[08:40] <Misosaki> troy_s: (Assuming we already know the audience)
[08:41] <troy_s> Misosaki: For what?
[08:41] <troy_s> Misosaki: Ubuntu?
[08:41] <Misosaki> troy_s: What are some of the things you think could be learned from Apple's approach?
[08:41] <troy_s> Misosaki: God -- there is clearly a 'no official stance one way or the other' for Ubuntu ;)
[08:41] <Misosaki> troy_s: Great ;)
[08:42] <troy_s> Misosaki: If I worked at Apple I might have an insight.  J. Ive has stated on more than one occasion that of all the things he will remember about Apple it will be the process that he remembers most.
[08:43] <troy_s> Misosaki: Xerox PARC had a wonderful set of minds working towards things as well.
[08:43] <troy_s> Misosaki: I would say that Apple makes decisions on behalf of their audience -- and they do a pretty good job of hitting the mark 80% of the time.
[08:44] <Misosaki> troy_s: nods
[08:45] <troy_s> Misosaki: The most exemplary development in Free Software was probably Diana's work -- it carried a good weight of communication and a pretty good idea of an audience.
[08:45] <terlmann> kwwii I need you to make the updated palette.
[08:45] <troy_s> (F7's work)
[08:45] <troy_s> Misosaki: It also has a pretty decent use of a palette with a good core set of hues etc.
[08:46] <troy_s> Misosaki: That said, even Apple catches lots of flak for some of their decisions.  It is quite clear that no one knows where / how / etc. are the hard and fast rules as to how to drive an operating system into the future.
[08:47] <Misosaki> troy_s: Well, change is a two-edged sword.
[08:47] <troy_s> Misosaki: by the way, that orange set you posted on the wiki had some very contemporary feeling to it as a starting point.
[08:47] <troy_s> One was very in line with the 8 track 60s revival that is sprouting up in a few areas... rather cool.
[08:49] <Misosaki> troy_s: Thanks. That was part of the concept - to expand on different notions of "a modern OS". One of the problems was I didn't really have a very clear idea of what was wanted.
[08:51] <Misosaki> troy_s: Or rather, the docs were sparse on the point, compared to what was being discussed here, for instance.
[08:55] <Misosaki> troy_s: Obviously doing the drafting, one really appreciates some of the problems with not having a clear direction.
[08:55] <Misosaki> *one begins to appreciate
[08:56] <troy_s> Misosaki: But you know... that is the point.  FOSS software _could_ be on the bleeding edge of contemporary -- but we are still stuck in that nasty swoopy swirl curve garbage.
[08:57] <troy_s> Misosaki: The 70s disco revival that is popping up in designer circles is quite cool -- its nice to see what people can do with a form if given latitude.
[08:58] <Misosaki> troy_s: nods
[08:59] <troy_s> Misosaki: Again though, that isn't going to be the role of the current distributions.  None of them are really aiming at that contemporary edge.
[08:59] <troy_s> Misosaki: It _might_ be a very viable direction for a core team of people to work towards though.
[09:00] <troy_s> Misosaki: To deliver a collaborative approach to contemporary design.  Until someone like Apple steps up and makes it 'hip', I seriously doubt whether any distro would have the balls.
[09:00] <Misosaki> troy_s: At this rate it'll probably be more of a side project (i.e. package extras) than the default.
[09:00] <Misosaki> If it happens.
[09:00] <Misosaki> troy_s: Yeah ... then again, change is often about taking the risks.
[09:00] <troy_s> Of course.
[09:01] <troy_s> Misosaki: Change and newness should be one of the greatest strengths of FOSS.  Not duplication of imitation.
[09:02] <troy_s> Misosaki: One would expect it to be a bastion of innovation (which it is in some circles I suppose).
[09:03] <Misosaki> troy_s: Yeah