kwwiiI get the feeling that no mattter what i said this "is *exactly* the target audience of ubuntu that troy_s would disagree01:08
kwwiifunny that he never steps up and says his opinion but seems to spend more time discussing others opinions and being sarcastic01:09
kwwiisick of that01:09
troy_skwwii_away: Hey man... short term memory back to Edgy eh?01:09
MisosakiWith due respect, the meeting was a a sign we are getting somewhere, but there is still much to be rolled out before the designers can actually get to work.01:10
kwwii_awaytroy_s: no, I am tired of you being negative and sarcastic without being helpful01:11
kwwii_awayyou have so much to offer but you always try to be so negative when we finally have chance to change things01:12
troy_skwwii_away: Actually, if you look to what I say, and not what you _want_ me to say, you will probably see the logic.  I just find it ironic that in this day and age you want optimism when you were possibly the most bullish during Edgy when it came to establishing a process.01:12
troy_skwwii_away: It isn't a negativity.  I have a serious caution when it comes to where Ubuntu can go.  Ultimately, as we _both_ know, the big hurdle is sabdfl.01:12
kwwii_awaytroy_s: and what does that have to do with the future?01:13
kwwii_awaytry, and try again01:13
troy_skwwii_away: Well as far as I am concerned, the _current_ gets you to the future.01:13
kwwii_awayif you really care01:13
=== swj [n=steven@c-71-226-69-25.hsd1.ms.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
kwwii_awayI think that the more you work against the current efforts just shows how much you are not interested in working towards the futures as now we finally have a chance at changing things...I do not need people telling me what is wrong but people telling me how to do things right01:14
troy_skwwii_away: Whoa.  How am I working against the current effort?01:14
MisosakiWill there be another meeting soon, and when will the things the designers need to get started (e.g. palette, etc.) be released?01:15
kwwii_awayjust stop being negative please...I know that you could help, if you tried - you know what you are talking about just try to move the effort forward instead of putting down everything that we have done01:16
kwwii_awayMisosaki: I think that we will need another meeting sooner rather than later01:16
kwwii_awayprobably within the next few weeks01:16
Misosakikwwii_away: Okay. Because some people look like they want to get started.01:17
Misosakikwwii_away: *Just asking because01:18
kwwii_awayMisosaki: yeah, that is why I think it would probably be good to have a meeting soon...I'll send an email to the list with more info soon01:18
troy_skwwii_away: The gap is between sabdfl and what happens in terms of dev.  That is a fundamental problem -- not being bloody negative!01:19
kwwii_awaytroy_s: how has sabdfl been negative so far in this process?01:19
troy_skwwii_away: ?!?!?!?!01:19
troy_skwwii_away: Where the hell did I type that?01:20
kwwii_awayThe gap is between sabdfl and what happens in terms of dev. That is a fundamental problem01:20
kwwii_awaythat is what you said01:20
troy_skwwii_away: I cited the fundamental problem (which is the same one over and over again) -- I have yet to see any motion towards migrating that.01:20
Misosakikwwii_away: And this time, it would be nice if the audience and communication thing were addressed thoroughly once and for all.01:21
troy_skwwii_away:  I said that wasn't me being negative.  I merely pointed out a hurdle.  I don't know how to negotiate that as it is a tremendous one.01:21
kwwii_awayMisosaki: yepp, I agree01:21
kwwii_awaytroy_s: then I will tell you that it is not a problem as it has been before01:22
kwwii_awaytime for bed01:23
troy_skwwii_away: Wonderful.  And he intends to actually steer the boat?01:23
kwwii_awayto some extent yes but not like it was in the previous releases01:23
troy_s(and by steer the boat I mean to actually give clear 'yes' or 'no' directionality -- not sit like a cheerleader.)01:24
kwwii_awayhe already took a much lesser step in the design for gutsy01:25
kwwii_awayhe told me what he liked, nothing more01:25
kwwii_awayand he trusts me much more now01:25
kwwii_awaythe point, as I always said was about building trust01:25
kwwii_awaynobody ever wanted to get that before01:26
kwwii_awayeveryone wanted to say "I like this" while that never formed a consensus01:26
kwwii_awayno wonder that he stepped in and took control01:26
kwwii_awaysomebody had to01:26
troy_skwwii_away: I don't understand how the end was much different?01:26
kwwii_awayeven if they did not know everything01:27
Misosakikwwii_away: Then you'll be sure to pass the word on as to what he wants?01:27
kwwii_awaylol, then you never worked in this branch01:27
troy_skwwii_away: I suppose it is two sides to the trust -- one of the sabdfl side and one of the people who might be able to do the work.01:27
kwwii_awayyes, that is part of my job01:27
troy_sand perhaps two perspectives on a situation.01:27
kwwii_awayto work for the community and for the company01:27
kwwii_awaybut first I had to earn trust with the company - they are paying for this after all01:28
kwwii_awaysomeone pays 10 million euros a year for something which he gives away for free and people get all freaky that he wants to get what he thinks is right and people get all freaky about it - i simply do not understand that01:31
kwwii_awaythings will change, that much I promise01:33
troy_skwwii_away: I have said all along, I have _zero_ problem with sabdfl wanting things his way.  Zero zippo zip -- hence my complete detachment from any process -- what he wants is very clearly something different than what some want.01:33
kwwii_awayjust be positice01:33
kwwii_awaytroy_s: that will always be the case no matter who is in charge01:33
kwwii_awayyou will never please all the people all of the time01:34
troy_skwwii_away: Well no kidding.  The thinking was more along the bigger pictures of actually attempting to challenge a given population of market.01:34
troy_skwwii_away: I believe I posted that Aesop a while ago.  It is all about percentages.  I suppose the question is what percentages does one trust.01:34
kwwii_awaythen why don't you step up and say what you think so that we know which percertage you belong to01:35
kwwii_awayyou seem to like to step between things so that you can always be negative01:36
kwwii_awaysorry to say that01:36
kwwii_awaybut I think you could help so much yet you do not01:36
troy_skwwii_away: I have said my piece.  And I am sorry you view my stance as negative, in my eyes the elements I try to highlight are what my experience and guts are telling me might hinder say -- the arrival at a F7 presentation.01:37
troy_skwwii_away: If we were to localize a goal.01:37
kwwii_awayI think that if you put more effort in trying to help the process than being negative about it we would get much further01:37
troy_skwwii_away: Which I have long since forgiven and moved on about.  Now I am quite interested to see alternates.01:38
kwwii_awaydude, the fact the frank failed is not due to him, he is kid with no experience01:38
troy_sDid I once blame Frank?01:39
kwwii_awayI told you in advance that I did not think his approach would work at that ime01:39
kwwii_awaynot that he did not have good ieas01:39
troy_sAnd you strove like a bugger to make that vision happen.01:39
kwwii_awayno, I had nothing to do with it01:39
kwwii_awayI only worked on kubuntu at the time01:39
kwwii_awaywhich is easy01:40
troy_sYou sat on the sidelines and puddled.  C'mon... I was there.01:40
kwwii_awayyou can do anything with kubuntu and nobody will care01:40
terlmannheya kwwiii01:40
kwwii_awayI was only paid to work on that01:40
troy_skwwii_away: Granted that with Kubuntu, not many care.01:40
kwwii_awaythere are so many eyes on ubuntu that is has to be perfect01:40
terlmanngiven, troy_s. Only thing to do with opposition is shoot it.01:41
kwwii_awayand we need people like you to help us01:41
terlmannSHOOT IIT01:41
kwwii_awaybut we need you to be helpfull and not negative01:41
_MMA_terlmann: You really need to stay out of this.01:41
=== terlmann gives the room a big hug
kwwii_awayterlmann: take a piss for while, will you?01:41
troy_skwwii_away: I can't help.  I have no idea how to help the situation.  The biggest problem (again not being negative) is that the first pass of process failed SOLELY because sabdfl was a missing member of the panel.01:41
kwwii_awaytroy_s: yes, I agree on why it failed in the past01:42
kwwii_awaythat is not point01:42
kwwii_awayI tried to explain why it would not work at the time but you and frank did not want to listen to me01:42
troy_skwwii_away: If somewhere, from someone up high you can get who the heck Hardy is going to aim at we might win.  I still feel that on some level the uber-conservativism might be an attempt to pull in an business market.01:42
troy_skwwii_away: Are you kidding me?01:42
kwwii_awaythere was no way it would work as you expected at the time01:42
troy_skwwii_away: Do you have any idea how hard Frank tried to get sabdfl to get involved and make an executive call on things?01:43
terlmannI quote my self : <terlmann> Mark , I would like to say that the community and you are not unified. Your in control of this and we know it. But whether your controlling hand is a shaky one or a firm one , that detail is not known.01:43
troy_skwwii_away: I mean seriously kwwii_away, Frank is no idiot.01:43
joejaxxterlmann: just be quiet01:43
kwwii_awayyes I do, and I felt sorry for him at the time, and I told him so way in advance01:43
kwwii_awayterlmann: shut up, please01:43
troy_skwwii_away: It was less about frank and more about the very real disjointed nature of the client and the work that needs to be done.01:44
kwwii_awaytroy_s: I told him exactly what the problems would be and they all came ture01:44
troy_skwwii_away: I don't think _anyone_ could negotiate that.01:44
=== terlmann is now known as noone
kwwii_awaytroy_s: I agree there was no way to deal with that01:44
troy_skwwii_away: And I still am wondering if _anything_ has changed in that department.  Remember -- at the head of it Mark was identical in _stance_ but the _dance_ was way off.01:44
kwwii_awaythe only way to deal with it was to work things out over time01:44
kwwii_awaytroy_s: I know it was bad, and I saw it coming, and I warned frank again and again that he would be the scape-goat01:45
troy_skwwii_away: It was most unfortunate because I personally told sabdfl at the very beginning that to gain the trust (the other side of trust) it would take patience and _time_.01:46
troy_skwwii_away: Unfortunately, that all got burned in the barn, as well as some very decent talent.01:46
kwwii_awaythe thing is, that explainig to him the problems is too much...he does not need the problems, he needs the answers01:47
kwwii_awayand now he is ready to accept the answers01:47
troy_skwwii_away: I asked nearly day one for anything -- a sample of what he considers 'good design'01:47
troy_skwwii_away: And even still, it seems all we have is a page out of a magazine... lol.01:47
kwwii_awayat that time I do not think that anything would make him happy excecpt doing exactly what he wanted01:47
troy_skwwii_away:  Hey man -- he had a willing legion at one point.01:48
troy_skwwii_away: No one could find out.01:48
kwwii_awaythat is why I warned frank01:49
troy_skwwii_away: It was like milking blood from a stone.  He probably falls into that category of the personality that really doesn't know what it likes or has never had to quantify it.  That's fine, but not so fine for the fools who have to try and replicate it.01:49
kwwii_awayask him, I told him in advance01:49
kwwii_awayI warned him of what I thought he was walking into01:49
kwwii_awayand it all came true01:49
troy_skwwii_away: Anways, before you bed, see if Canonical is mature enough to have a stated audience and goal.  And by audience, let's try and boil it down into a standard demographic lol.01:49
kwwii_awaydude, I will make it come true or I will loose my job01:50
troy_skwwii_away: How so?01:50
kwwii_awayI wish that I has someone like frank to help me now01:50
kwwii_awayhe would be a good partner in this now01:50
troy_skwwii_away: Frank will avoid free software like the plague.01:50
kwwii_awayat the time he was just screwed because of the situation01:50
kwwii_awayand I told him so01:51
kwwii_awayagain and again01:51
troy_skwwii_away: Oh the other side of that bloody gongshow -- aside from pissing off community members and capable folks -- was that all the people who actually LEARNED from that experience went 'poof' in a puff of smoke.01:51
kwwii_awayask him01:51
kwwii_awayyepp, what a waste of talent01:51
troy_skwwii_away: Well let's put it this way -- your 'warning' was viewed as being rather negative on the whole situation.  I don't think Frank minds about the result actually.  Most things like that are about the journey anyways.01:52
troy_skwwii_away: The talent can be regrown -- the learning experience can't.01:52
troy_s(well without repeating, and I don't think many people are up for that.)01:52
kwwii_awaybut what did you expect me to do? I said again and again to you and frank at UDS Paris that there where problems but you did not want to listen to me01:52
troy_skwwii_away: ?  If the goal was to establish a process isn't that what one should do -- do or die?01:52
=== noone is now known as terlmann
troy_skwwii_away: Or you can start politicking.01:53
kwwii_awayit is not a matter of the community growing...it was a matter of other people seeing the reality of things01:53
troy_skwwii_away: And I guess we differ in views on that.01:53
kwwii_awaysabdfl had to see and trust those around him first01:53
kwwii_awaythat means doing what he wants and showing him what he wants first01:54
kwwii_awayand then moving on01:54
troy_skwwii_away: And at that point, neither was possible.  He wasn't able to vocalize _anything_, nor did he seem interested to.01:54
kwwii_awayfirst you have to gain trust and then you can move on01:54
kwwii_awayit was all too much at one time01:54
kwwii_awayI told frank that, ask him01:55
kwwii_awayI warned him before he even took the job01:55
kwwii_awaythe situation was fscked up, and i saw that in advance01:56
kwwii_awayluckily I was only responsible for kubuntu at the time -he did not care about that01:56
kwwii_awayand to be honest, the better I did at that the more I earned his trust, funny enough01:57
kwwii_awayI hated the feisty artwork01:57
kwwii_awayfor ubuntu01:57
kwwii_awaybut it made him happy to some extent01:57
kwwii_awayand it gained trust01:58
troy_skwwii_away:  Whatever one thinks they were 'right' about is irrelevant.  The simple fact was that any of the works would have been better than what ended up in E.  That's the great silly.01:58
kwwii_awaygod, why do I have to go through this on an open irc channel?01:58
troy_skwwii_away: Transparency.01:58
kwwii_awaytroy_s: I agree totally01:58
kwwii_awayedgy turned out to be total shit01:58
troy_skwwii_away: Well... arguably since Dapper they have been.01:59
kwwii_awaywell, it was as bad as feisty wa01:59
kwwii_awayand I made that shit01:59
troy_skwwii_away: And again, that is more about how much Canonical is willing to move.  All the talent and execution in the world is worth nothing if people aren't going to be willing to roll with it.01:59
kwwii_awaybut maybe we can slowly move forward01:59
troy_skwwii_away: I don't know.  I would love to see what sabdfl has to say on things.  I wonder how he feels about the long string of debacles.02:00
kwwii_awayso let#s not be negative but move forward02:00
kwwii_awayif you really were to ask him honestly you would only set things back I think02:01
kwwiican you understand how there is a point between being honest and being honest?02:02
kwwiiI tried to tell frank that he was screwed from the start02:02
kwwiinothing he did was bad02:02
kwwiibut he could never do what he was intended to do and make it02:03
kwwiinow maybe we have a chance02:03
troy_sI have no complaints with anyone other than sabdfl choosing to avoid issues.  I have a major complaint with the way it was spun.  Utter tripe.02:03
kwwiiso let's make the most of it and move forward02:03
troy_sI believe I have been.  I have stuck around and kept contributing -- albeit I have chosen to not really bother with the Ubuntu thing as it still feels all too familiar.02:04
kwwiiyes, I do admit that you have been more positive than ever before02:05
troy_slol... sure.02:05
terlmannkwwii : would you be willing to appoint more persons to draw up resolutions for sabdfl to approve ?02:05
kwwiibut you have to understand how hard it has been for me to talk to you in the past in an open irc channel although I might have agreed with you on many points02:06
troy_sI just do what I do.  I can't suggest for a second that I can deliver content that will work.  That said, the fundamental flaws with Ubuntu are well known -- even the forum people (if you pour over some of the comments) hit on the possible paths to salvation.02:06
kwwiiterlmann: no, unless sabdfl tells me so02:07
terlmannKnowing the answers to the problem is what you need ol benevolent to have , not the problems themselves. Perhaps if you set up some committees of your own you might get something done.02:07
troy_sterlmann: You have to understand -- sabdfl is worth half a billion dollars -- he really could care less.02:07
kwwiitroy_s: i think that you have come02:07
troy_sterlmann: He has the world by the beets.02:07
terlmannthe richest man in the world could care about the smallest things of all. Just try it.02:08
terlmannanyway I am talking about indirect resolution , not direct02:08
terlmannwe report to you02:08
kwwiitroy_s: I think that you have come *very* close to what *we* want and that shows that you do know what is *needed*02:08
troy_sterlmann: confucius, you can't possibly be a bloody fortune cookie.02:08
terlmannyou give the ideas to him , not us02:08
troy_skwwii: I doubt that sincerely.02:09
kwwiiterlmann: I have been very lienent (sl02:09
troy_sterlmann: In the end, no one has the 'way out'.02:09
kwwiiterlmann: please stop02:09
_MMA_Oh christ. terlmann cant you just stay out of the conversation? Let it die for tonight. Let kwwii sleep.02:09
terlmannlenient = tolerance of stupidity. I see this is pointless. Good night.02:09
=== terlmann [n=terlmann@] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Leaving"]
kwwiiterlmann: I will stop you if you do not know how to stop yourself02:10
troy_sOuch.  A little on the uh... hard.02:10
kwwiiwhat an idiot02:10
=== _MMA_ claps.
kwwiiI am sick of him02:10
troy_sWe are all idiots.02:10
kwwiiI tried to be tolerant02:10
troy_sI was having trouble figuring out what he was trying to say... let alone get angry with him.02:10
kwwiibut I am fed up with his stupidtiy02:10
kwwiimaybe I just had enough02:11
_MMA_troy_s: He just continually get the subtle hints to chill.02:11
joejaxxthe anger is justified02:11
nothlitwow, finally02:11
kwwiithanks joejaxx02:11
_MMA_*continually doesnt02:11
joejaxxkwwii: you are most welcome02:11
kwwiithanks nothlit02:11
kwwiiyeah, good idea02:11
joejaxx_MMA_: lol02:12
kwwiitroy_s: please do not think that I am trying to be negative - I just want us to all work together as best is possible at the time02:13
kwwiiI wish that frank were still around to keep up on things02:13
kwwiitime for sleep02:13
troy_skwwii: I am all for it assuming that the boy with the big stick is on the same page.  Remember -- sabdfl was positive about things -- but he can change his tune quickly.02:13
joejaxxGoodnight kwwii :)02:13
troy_skwwii: night.02:13
MisosakiNight kwwii02:13
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kwwiitroy_s: and if so I will loose my job just as quickly, so it life02:14
kwwiibut I have to try02:14
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troy_sHi terlmann02:19
terlmannis he asleep ?02:20
MisosakiNo, Big Brother is watching you. ;)02:20
terlmannbetter not be02:20
terlmannBig Brother seems an insomniac02:21
joejaxxthat would be me02:21
Misosakilols What time at your end, joejaxx ?02:21
joejaxxbut i normally do not sleep02:21
joejaxxit stinks02:21
terlmannin the mountains joe ?02:22
MisosakiSleep has an odour?02:22
_MMA_terlmann: You're just dont get it. You're rubbing alot of people the wrong way. You need to chill.02:22
joejaxxMisosaki: :P02:22
=== terlmann goes to the freezer
terlmannsay somthing contrary and you get flamed02:22
Misosakijoejaxx: :)02:23
=== terlmann rubs some aloe over his ears
_MMA_terlmann: Please read over this and examine your actions. http://apachecon.com/2006/US/presentations/FR13/FR13-Poisonous-people.pdf02:24
troy_sterlmann: I don't know if what you said was contrary.02:24
troy_sterlmann: I was actually having trouble understanding what you said at all.02:25
terlmannWell I am a strange bird , that is true. but go over my words again. I was simply asking some questions I don't think anyone has asked before. That said perhaps at the time it was the wrong time to say them.02:27
kwwii_awayterlmann: no, I am not asleep if that make you feel better02:27
terlmannGO TO SLEEP02:27
=== terlmann runs
=== terlmann runs away madly
joejaxxterlmann: you seriously need to stop this is not a Halo 3 chatroom02:27
_MMA_terlmann: Strange or not you need to learn when NOT it inject yourself into things.02:28
troy_severyone go back to idling.02:29
terlmannUm , send ken to bed02:29
nothlitthere has been no idling, we've all been watching02:29
terlmannthen I can argue with the rest of you02:29
=== terlmann wants an unofficial meeting that will stress No-one
_MMA_That happened in another, terlmann-free channel. ;)02:30
terlmannI was THERE02:30
kwwii_awayyeah, then stay there02:30
terlmannI was there and wisely kept my trap shut02:30
joejaxx_MMA_: :P02:30
_MMA_Naa. you didnt get the joke. ;)02:31
terlmannyour whole meeting lasted one hour and I said not one word in it :-D02:31
_MMA_You assume I mean ubuntu-meeting.02:31
terlmannbut no02:31
terlmannyour probably refering to something else02:32
terlmannsomething mystical02:32
terlmannfrom before time02:32
_MMA_There's no way you're 19. Even someone of that age would get the hint.02:32
terlmannI am 1902:32
terlmannand I can prove it02:33
joejaxxuh oh02:33
_MMA_Thats sad if its true.02:33
terlmannI may be mentally retarded in fact but I still want to act something older.02:33
_MMA_And honestly, there's no way to prove it online. It can all be fake.02:33
kwwii_awaydo your mystical, before time meeting on your own or you will get kicked from this channel, trust me02:33
troy_s_MMA_: See, and you give toby a hard time.02:33
kwwii_awayi do not care how old you are02:34
nothlit_MMA_: chain of trust in person with gpg keys02:34
terlmannI stayed out of the meeting02:34
terlmannI did02:34
nothlitbut webcams can be faked easily02:34
kwwii_awayeither be productive or leave02:34
terlmannI promise I will stay out of anything important02:34
joejaxxnothlit: lol with biometrics02:34
_MMA_troy_s: Yeah. Im writing a apology email now.02:34
troy_s_MMA_: LOL02:34
=== IanC26 [n=IanC26@2002:908b:a559:4:216:6fff:fe39:ff6e] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
joejaxxIanC26: nice ipv6 ;)02:34
MisosakiHi IanC2602:34
kwwii_awayterlmann: then there is no reason for you to be in this channel and expect to have a say in anything02:35
terlmannI don't02:35
terlmannI expect the unexpected02:35
terlmannI guess I am wrong02:35
kwwii_awayyes, you are wrong02:35
terlmannYour only human , after all :-)02:35
kwwii_awayif you only knew how many people have told me to kick you....02:36
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dmccallSorry to jump in blindly (and to disappear after sending this huge wad of text), but I think one problem here is that lots of this great artwork people mention is just a single piece. There is nothing else in the desktop to go with it, and it quite often appears too close to the wire for much collaboration to happen. (Icons, gdm, usplash, miscellaneous application artwork, default settings / effects... documentation). The current 02:37
dmccallIn other words: Time for a single, unified mockup, posted early on, that people can look at and work on the actual components for immediately -- whether they are particularly happy about it or not. Working quickly at this is the only way to change Ubuntu's artwork, because the gradual, 'one chunk per release' approach simply can't work for a significant change in direction.02:37
IanC26I was amazed that it worked (IPv6 that is)!02:37
joejaxxIanC26: :D02:37
kwwii_awaydmccall: totally agreed02:38
kwwii_awaydmccall: the whole point of the new process is to facilitate that process02:39
kwwii_awaylol, I said process twice in one sentence02:39
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kwwii_awaytime for sleep02:39
kwwii_awayI give up02:39
kwwii_awayyou can all deal with terlmann on your own02:40
Misosaki_kwwii_away: lols Get some rest02:40
joejaxxGoodnight kwwii_away :)02:41
kwwii_awaynight joejaxx, Misosaki_, all02:43
nothlitcyas, get some rest, 2 hours isn't good for anybody02:44
terlmannnight bold hero02:44
troy_sterlmann: You are otkadeto right?02:45
terlmannno idea what that is , sorry02:45
_MMA_Oh sh!t! :)02:46
_MMA_troy_s: Please say you have the quotes.02:46
terlmannOh, a person like me.02:46
terlmannwell , I tried to msg kwwi before he got off02:46
terlmannI said something that applies to all of you02:47
Misosaki_terlmann: We're people?02:47
joejaxx_MMA_: you know i log everything02:47
terlmannActing my age is not going to happen  quickly, I am sorry to say to you. I just don't have the know-how to get a grip on the situation. I am always in good spirits about anything, and I am willing to be bold with the greatest and humble with the least. Just I am sorry you do not know WHY I do it.  Because if you did , your tolerance would , in retrospect , be limitless.02:47
terlmannSomething for you to chew on.02:48
Misosaki_Well, maybe if you could tell us why you do what ... ?02:48
terlmannplease digest the whole post first.02:49
terlmannchew thoughly02:49
_MMA_Sorry man. "limitless" aint gonna hapen with anyone but your parents.02:49
terlmannTrue , true.02:49
troy_sterlmann: More importantly, can you illustrate or draw?02:49
kwwii_awayno you cannot02:50
terlmannhmm ?02:50
_MMA_God I wish I could kick Kenneth from the channel. :)02:50
terlmannI did this02:50
terlmannAnd I do some 3-d modelling for now02:51
kwwii_awayI wish I could kick myself from the channel02:51
_MMA_terlmann: adding that logo takes nothing.02:51
terlmannnot just a logo02:52
terlmannit was over 100 steps02:52
nothlitkwwii_away: get to sleep before we all have to put you on ignore to02:52
terlmannnot just transparency02:52
troy_sterlmann: Ok -- so what made you choose to center punch the logo?02:52
kwwii_awaywow, you added a logo to existing artwork02:52
terlmannok , hold on02:52
_MMA_terlmann: than you're doing something wrong.02:52
kwwii_awayI am sick of this02:52
_MMA_I could do it in 5 mins in Inkscape or GIMP.02:52
terlmannI put some up on imageshack , but I need to find the links..02:52
_MMA_troy_s or joejaxx: Do you have the hamburger quote? :)02:53
troy_sok find some links.02:53
troy_s"With that, I make hamburger for the akademy!"02:54
_MMA_If you even attempt to figure it out you go cross-eyed.02:55
troy_sterlmann: Links to your works?02:55
terlmannI said I am searching02:56
_MMA_I really hope you do. You tend to talk alot but show little.02:56
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_MMA_terlmann: Ill read back to see what you post. If you dont. Ill ask tomorrow.03:02
terlmann7000 google entries man03:02
terlmannI have to go through all of them03:03
terlmannmy originals died in a crash03:03
_MMA_Im sorry man. Its just all too convenient.03:03
terlmannBut for you to expect me to have something is rediculious03:03
terlmannhow old am I ?03:03
_MMA_If your 19? Yes. Its expected.03:04
terlmannyou take me seriously or as nonsense as YOU please.03:04
_MMA_Its up to YOU to put up or shut up and trust me if you dont take it upon yourself to shut up you will be forced.03:05
terlmannJust a word of wisdom for you : If you reject me now , as I act now, you will find it harder to accept me later , when I am actually acting the way you want . Ponder that for a while.03:05
terlmannI am going to "shut up" now.03:05
=== terlmann is now known as _|_
nothlit_|_: isn't this your stuff? http://terlmann.deviantart.com/03:06
_MMA_You still didnt say if you're 19 os not.03:06
_|_That is my page , yes . About two years old.03:06
_|_I have not used it since I started going to college03:07
_MMA_Shouldnt a 19 year-old who talks so much about his art accomplishments have examples?03:07
_MMA_I have things going back to 10 years old.03:07
_|_I have talked about my accomplishments >03:07
_|_I bragged about how I could do better.03:08
_|_at managing.03:08
_MMA_You will find that your talking simply isnt enough.03:08
_MMA_And whats the point of changing your nick if you stay in the channel?03:11
_|_ In my Defense , you tend to like to talk to guys that impress you. Are as good or better than you at what you talk about. However, it becomes mute. The person you may be trying to talk to is too busy being impressive to talk to you.03:11
_|__MMA_ : I won't leave the channel till I give you that link.03:12
_MMA_Then why change the nick?03:12
_|_to say Dont talk to me , I'm busy.03:12
troy_sthe return of otkadeto.  I love it.03:18
troy_s_|_: When you say 'However, it becomes mute", you probably mean 'moot'.  Oft confused terms.03:19
_MMA_mmm..... hamburgers....03:19
_|_Thank you for the clarification.03:19
joejaxxdo not forget the tinfoil03:19
joejaxx_MMA_: ^03:19
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terlmanngood night04:08
_MMA_Oh I call bullsh!t.04:10
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woodwizzleAre there any tools that make it easier to make custom icon themes?04:38
woodwizzleand I don't mean art tools. But tols to properly organize the files etc.04:38
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_MMA_woodwizzle: Not that I have seen in a long time. Its a pretty manual process.04:59
troy_swoodwizzle: Your best bet is to ls the directory of Tango.05:14
troy_swoodwizzle: And fill in the non symlink'd icons with your plan.05:14
troy_swoodwizzle: The boys of Tango have done terrific work to make it integrate in terms of layout -- of course there are still some kludges and such, but that isn't their fault.05:15
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lassegulgood morning!09:25
mtholdensshow did that meeting go yesterday?09:25
lassegulvery good.09:26
lassegulyou missed it?09:26
mtholdenssyeah, i live in australia, it was at 3 am in the morning, i needed sleep haha09:26
lassegulhttp://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20071002_1759.html check the log09:27
mtholdenssive been trying to find that09:27
mtholdenssis doing a partial upgrade on 7.10 beta good?09:55
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=== Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-artwork.log
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=== Topic for #ubuntu-artwork: Meeting Tuesday Oct 2nd in #ubuntu-meeting (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings has a list of topics)
=== Topic (#ubuntu-artwork): set by kwwii at Wed Sep 26 15:00:57 2007
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nothlit`alphatroy_s:  woodwizzle, http://csl-waltz.forja.rediris.es/ something i saw on the tango list a while ago, but it doesn't seem to have gone  much further in development -- working download here https://forja.rediris.es/websvn/wsvn/csl-waltz/tags/?rev=0&sc=001:48
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andreasnoh, interesting01:49
andreasnI forgot about that01:49
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lassegulnothlit`alpha: hi. did you get the chance to talk to kwwii about the wiki?02:18
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nothlitlassegul: i pmed him a link of what we worked on before he went to sleep, he said he would look at it in the morning02:26
kwwii_awaynothlit, lassegul: the wiki ideas look pretty good02:35
_MMA_Hi Kenneth.02:37
_MMA_kwwii_away: I think if you like their work/attitude nothlit & lassegul should be made the only people who maintain/organize the WIKI. (apart from you of course)02:40
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kwwiihi Cory02:42
kwwii_MMA_: yeah, I was just thinking the same thing02:42
andreasnkwwii: did the links I sent you work as a rough start?02:43
kwwiiandreasn: yes, they look good as well02:45
andreasnI'll see if I can find some more02:45
lassegulhi kwwii; good that you liked it. we could skip the "funny" part on the template if yould like :P02:46
kwwiiI am not sure how many people will actually read them but at least then they cannot say that the info was not available02:46
lassegulthough i find inspiration from a platypus pretty funny.02:46
kwwiilassegul: seems to explain it well - leave it in :-)02:46
lassegulIve even made concept art.02:47
andreasnkwwii: yeah02:47
lassegulI was counting on nothlit to create the colour pallette.02:47
_MMA_No Troy should. :)02:47
lassegulwe better be careful not to end up with a platypus 8.04 default theme :S02:48
kwwiilassegul: on ething though - the guidelines part will only have one guideline (one palette, etc)02:48
lassegulkwwii: I see.02:49
kwwiiie. the default artwork will only have one palette, concepts, etc.02:49
lassegulthats why the template is for /Alternate02:49
lassegulwe didnt want to do anything that you should do, thats why we kept from doing any of the important stuff.02:50
kwwiiright, but reading the ContributionSpec it seems to suggest creating such a page for each02:50
kwwiilet me find the quote...02:50
kwwii== What to do ==02:50
kwwiiStart a new page for each idea. If it is in line with the Official Guidelines, place it under Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Guidelined. If its for alternate selection and/or the community theme, place it under Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate. Name your new page after the concept. So if the alternate concept's name is "Platypus", the new page will be Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Platypus.02:50
lassegulkwwii: ok. we should edit it so it fits. but its a good material to work with, so we have it ready to implement into the wiki, just have to edit details.02:51
kwwiiyes, definitely02:51
kwwiiit is a great starting point, the part about the default artwork is all I see that needs tweaking02:51
lassegulkwwii: but we need directions soon, because this is about all we can do without your guiding.02:52
kwwiilassegul: right, i will start working on this stuff asap02:52
kwwii(today is a holiday in Germany)02:52
_MMA_So the /Alternate art will be a "community" theme/package or something?02:53
lasseguloh, is it the "dont wear a tie, or we'll cut it" day?02:53
kwwii_MMA_: yes, all of that should go in the community theme package02:53
kwwiilassegul: lol, no but it is funny you know about that02:53
kwwiiit is German reunification day02:53
_MMA_Wheres the link to what will be the Ubuntu-Hardy art page.02:53
lassegulkwwii: i love germany and ive spent much time there.02:53
_MMA_I cant find it.02:54
lassegulkwwii: (not much time, but visited family.)02:54
kwwii_MMA_: I do not think there is a link posted as it is not really finished yet02:54
kwwii_MMA_: I intend to rework the /Artwork front page very soon as well02:55
kwwiias usual, as soon as I start on something important like this someone in the company gives me another project to work on02:55
kwwiilassegul: cool, can you speak german?02:55
_MMA_I just work about confusion over what will be the "official" and what will be the "community" art. It needs to be a clear separation.02:56
kwwii_MMA_: right, that needs to be very clearly defined02:56
kwwiiby the way, I created this yesterday as well: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/KennethWimer/Ideas02:58
=== _MMA_ looks.
kwwiithat basically defines the scope of changes for Hardy03:00
_MMA_The only thing I really sweat is the iconset. It can totally take longer than 6 months to do a set correctly.03:00
_MMA_This is a worry for Ubuntu Studio.03:00
andreasn_MAA_: isn't your base set tango-styled though?03:04
andreasnthe one that weddeburn did03:04
lassegulkwwii: ich bin ein Eicornchen. Du bist ein Faulpelz. Wonderbra!03:04
lassegulkwwii: thats it.03:04
kwwiilassegul: nicht schlecht03:05
_MMA_andreasn: Yes. Our current set is. Thing is, with our new concept, I dont know if they will fit.03:05
nothlitnice, graphical grub, we're gonna use the patched version?03:07
kwwiiI hope that we could make that work03:09
kwwiibut that is a technical issue03:09
=== kwwii leaves to collect leaves
kwwiimy son has to collect leaves for biology - taking a walk03:10
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kwwii_walk_MMA_: the idea with the icon theme is to create as many of the more important icons as soon as possible, the theme will evolve over time so we have a longer time to get it all ready03:15
kwwii_walkand with that, I head out for a walk03:15
_MMA_kwwii_walk: Oh sure. :) Is the plan to do this over 1 dev cycle though?03:16
lasseguldoesnt sound like it.03:16
nothlitis this something that will be refreshed over LTS or re-evolved slowly03:19
nothlitor rather permanent, until there comes a need to start a new project03:20
nothlitif at all03:20
_MMA_I'm under the impression it will be as new as it can be for Hardy and continue to evolve from there.03:23
nothliti've started up a dedicated sobby server now btw, nothlit.zapto.org03:28
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lassegulnothlit: is this one hosted from the same server yesterdays session was hosted from?03:51
nothlitnah that was hosted from the gobby app on my laptop03:54
nothliti compiled sobby now03:54
lassegulbecause it lagged like you were downloading pr0n :P03:56
lassegulgobby is cool though. they should rename it though: Gedit - multiplayer edition.03:57
nothlit=/ just a cruddy connection and upstream bandwidth03:57
nothlitlassegul: the though works find there :)03:58
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nothlitwow, i didn't think foss was along this far, i thought it was still written gimp natural media specs http://www.levien.com/gimp/wetdream.html04:13
andreasnkrita is pretty good at natural media?04:15
nothlitthe watercolour thing is test code, not realtime or usable in 1.604:17
nothlitthis one is pretty great though http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~mrenold/mypaint/ wonderful brushes and key shortcuts + interface, but no layers04:18
andreasnI totally need to try krita again04:18
nothlitthe ohter one is http://www.goghproject.com/04:18
nothlitwhich is interesting but the the brushes are a little lacking same as gimp04:19
nothlitthat ones more of a streamlined gimp for painting04:19
nothlitthat wet dream application, looks like it was written in '01 :( seems like gimp is....04:20
andreasngogh looked nice04:20
andreasnhm, I better test that, and perhaps draw them some new icons04:21
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andreasn"Gogh is developed nights and weekends by Aleksey Y. Nelipa" :)04:23
DanaGArgh, will the brown icons in Tangerine likely be fixed (made orange again)?04:30
DanaGI find the brown "desktop" icons and such clash quite violently with the orange folder icons.04:31
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andreasnhi DanG: isn't they just the same color as the default background?04:32
DanaGYeah, but I'd rather have the icons be orange even if the wallpaper is brown.04:37
andreasnI think lapo added them for consistency's sake04:38
DanaGOtherwise you get this in your Places menu: orange orange orange orange orange (folders) | BROWN computer, blue "cd/dvd", white drives.04:38
DanaGSubjectively, I'd rather have the icons be consistent with the other icons, even if they don't match the wallpaper.04:38
andreasnso you want it to be more monocrome?04:38
DanaGPlus, since when are tangerines brown?04:39
DanaGI'd just want the icons to be orange.04:39
DanaGLike they used to be.04:39
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=== nothlit feels sorry for kwwii and lapo
DanaGhmm, that was odd -- I tried to start Virtualbox, and Xorg closed (as if on logout), and then my system hard-locked to the point where even my "toggle LEDs" BIOS hotkey didn't work.04:45
DanaGThe last thing I said was the last thing I saw before now, so did I miss anything?04:45
andreasnDanaG: it should be possible to grab a old version and put it in ./icons if I'm not mistaken04:47
DanaGUnfortunately, the old versions also have the really really large Shortcut overlay.04:47
andreasnwell, you could just pick the monitors from the old version04:48
DanaGIs there a nice list of all icons that were affected by the color change?  If so, I can modify the package myself.04:48
andreasnpossibly in lapo's head :)04:48
andreasnbut, hm, let's see04:49
andreasnplaces/computer and places/video-display04:49
DanaGOh yeah, I have to go for a while right now.  I'll be back later.04:50
andreasnstatus/network-error, status/network-idle, status/network-offline, status/network-receive04:50
andreasnstatus/network-transmit-recieive, status/network-transmit04:51
andreasnthat's all, I think04:51
troy_s<DanaG> Otherwise you get this in your Places menu: orange orange orange orange orange (folders) | BROWN computer, blue "cd/dvd", white drives.05:17
troy_s<DanaG> Subjectively, I'd rather have the icons be consistent with the other icons, even if they don't match the wallpaper.05:17
troy_sI would hope these types of complaints could be resolved with a proper palette.  I strongly suspect that a palette would allow for the continual theme of a base tone without rolling into monochromatic hell.05:18
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_MMA_nothlit: I made some updates to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming if you wanna take a look.05:57
_MMA_Mostly at the bottom.05:57
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nothlit`alpha_MMA_:the palette?06:18
_MMA_Contact stuff.06:21
_MMA_I will be trying to work on the palette today though.06:23
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=== kwwii_walk cooks a duck...bbl
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_MMA_kwwii_duck: Will you have a final date for submissions and then work from there? Then from that point just work with some of (3-4) the top ideas until one comes out ahead?08:07
kwwii_stuffed_MMA_: yes, I think that we need to clearly say when the end of the contribution period is08:11
_MMA_Should go to: "kwwii_stuffed is now known as kwwii_fat" :D08:11
_MMA_Yeah. I was just looking over my own dates and wondered how you were gonna handle it.08:12
_MMA_All I have there are the freeze dates but even they might change because of the new process.08:12
kwwiiI had hoped to start working on this stuff tomorrow but another project has come up so I won't get to it until next week sometime08:13
kwwii_MMA_: yes, I will add the end of the contribution period to the release schedule08:13
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_MMA_kwwii: Well you might be able to direct nothlit and lassegul till then. (next week)08:14
kwwii_MMA_: right, depending on their schedule08:14
nothlitkwwii_walk: so should we rephrase it so that each persons submissions goes in the Official section under their own name, or all under the official page once it's setup08:14
kwwiinothlit: we should reword it so that people do not think that they need to define a palette or concepts to the official page08:15
kwwiiso for the community based stuff each conrtibution will be as you have described it08:15
lassegulkwwii: do you have time to sketch out a quick map of how the wiki should look?08:15
kwwiiand the official page will be just like one of those, only with subpages for other contributions08:15
kwwiilassegul: I was just sitting here with a pencil and paper trying to figure that out08:16
_MMA_Not to toot my horn but I think a structure something like mine where there's a central page that's informational, then links to subpages for submissions, will work for Ubuntu as well.08:16
kwwii_MMA_: toot away, I really liked the way that you did your page08:16
=== kwwii was going to steal ideas!
=== _MMA_ tries to stay modest.
_MMA_steal away. ;)08:17
lassegulkwwii: because it would be cool if nothlit and I got to be able to do things while you are busy.08:17
kwwiilassegul: I will try and get something together this evening - we can talk about it once it is done, I am sure you will have some ideas that I didn't think of08:18
_MMA_kwwii: Isnt it already like 9pm for you? :)08:18
lassegul20:19 in gmt+208:19
kwwiinot that late yet08:21
_MMA_kwwii: So lassegul and nothlit will be the "official" WIKI caretakers?08:21
_MMA_(just want to make is clear for everyone and have it come from the boss) ;)08:22
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coastGNUIs there a chance that I may have images for cd's before gutsy release?08:31
coastGNUI'm asking because I have the chance to use  cd burn-Robot at Systems IT fair in munich (23. - 26. Oct)08:33
coastGNUSo we will be able to give gutsy cd's to the people visiting the booth before shipit.08:33
kwwii_MMA_: yes, I think that since they are doing such a good job so far I should crown them official wiki gods08:35
lassegulPut me where i can be best used. I love working with nothlit. he is funny.08:36
nothlitlol, i am?08:36
lassegulyeah. but youre not aware of it ^^08:37
_MMA_nothlit: Yes. Funny like a clown. You amuse us. ;)08:37
=== _MMA_ hopes nothlit gets the reference.
nothlit*blank stare*08:38
lassegullike muse?08:38
lassegulwe are disecting your joke08:38
_MMA_yeah. Becomes unfunny.08:38
=== _MMA_ just lest it die but will feel bad if even kwwii doesnt get it. ;)
=== kwwii sings "send in the clowns"
_MMA_Ok. For the kids. Its a "Goodfellas" reference. Ill leave it at that.08:42
lasseguli still dont get it08:42
_MMA_damn kids08:43
_MMA_Could be a cultural thing as well.08:43
lassegulyeah ive seen it.08:44
lassegulyou got any sesame street material?08:44
_MMA_Naa... Just Muppets. :)08:44
=== nothlit hasn't watched many mob movies
=== _MMA_ goes back to try to make a sensible palette for Ubuntu Studio.
nothlitlassegul: help me work more on the fake concept template08:48
lassegulnothlit: ive got a platypus08:48
lassegulnothlit: sobby?08:49
nothlitits up08:50
kwwiisooo...here is what I have so far for the wiki Main Page08:50
kwwiiMAIN PAGE08:50
kwwiiA) General Team Info 1) Goals and Objectives 2) How to Join and Contribute08:50
kwwiiB) Projects 1) Official Artwork 2) Community Artwork (Better Name?)08:50
kwwiiC) General Guidelines 1) No porn or other BadThings(tm) 2) Licensing 3) Whatever else we think of...08:50
kwwiiD) Communication 1) Mailing list 2) IRC 3) art.ubuntu.com 4) Art on Forum???08:51
kwwiiE) Other Teams08:51
lassegulits nothlit.zepto.org:6522 ?08:51
lassegulthere we go.08:51
kwwiiwhat do you guys think about that structure?08:54
_MMA_There it looks like a good plan. Its all in how its formatted in the end.08:55
kwwiiyeah, I really wish the wiki looked nicer08:56
nothlitkwwii: guidelines should be above the projects08:56
nothlitor people will skip them08:56
kwwiinothlit: might be a good point08:56
_MMA_If yo uso subsections you can always have more specific guidelines there. I have them that way right at the top of the pages. Hard to miss.08:57
_MMA_*If you use...08:57
kwwiiI wish I knew more about wiki formating08:58
kwwiiBasically, all I know is = =, == ==, === ===, and *08:58
_MMA_:) I peek at other pages alot and have been giving tips to nothlit in PM.08:59
nothlit'' '' italics, ''' ''' bold, ---- for a horizontal rule08:59
nothlitkwwii: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Formatting , use the dropdown show raw text to check the code09:01
nothlitand theres links to the rest in there09:01
_MMA_ /!\ makes a warning triangle. :)09:02
lassegulyou got to love that.09:02
=== coastGNU [n=templin@dyndsl-085-016-006-124.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has left #ubuntu-artwork ["Ex-Chat"]
nothlitoh, and ## makes wiki comments like code comments09:02
_MMA_Best thing to do is look over other pages for good formatting ideas.09:03
_MMA_kwwii: You're not identified so if you did reply I didnt get it.09:04
lassegulwhat happened to the server nothlit?09:07
=== tonic-pushcart [n=tonic@203-114-182-35.dsl.sta.inspire.net.nz] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
nothlit`alphalassegul: my connection happened to the server09:10
nothlit`alphalassegul: is yours any more stable lol?09:10
nothlit`alphawhat am i saying, you work for an isp... you want to host it?09:10
lassegulgive me two seconds09:11
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lassegulnothlit`alpha: do you have a session stored?09:12
nothlit`alphayeah, but its easier for you to recreate it09:13
nothlit`alphajust reopen the files you have saved09:13
nothlit`alphaor i can paste in what i have09:13
lassegullassegs.ath.cx default port no password.09:13
nothlitkwwii: actually, this page has pretty much everything https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SyntaxReference09:18
kwwiisorry, was taking my kid to bed09:19
_MMA_nothlit: Nice reference page. Hadn't seen that one.09:22
_MMA_/me goes back to folding laundry.09:22
kwwiiooooh! laundry! what fun!09:23
_MMA_So goes the day of a stay-at-home Dad. ;)09:25
kwwiithat page really does have a lot of good info09:27
nothlitoh and lol http://doc.ubuntu.com/styleguide/styleguide.html09:32
kwwiistyleguide? we don't need no stinking styleguides!09:36
kwwiiI have plenty of style as it is09:36
_MMA_Says kwwii as he "pops his collar". ;)09:37
nothlitkwwii: ok, put up the submission guidelines https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/SubmissionGuidelines#preview09:47
nothlitwe're working on the main page now from your outline09:48
kwwiinothlit: looking good!09:51
nothlitalso, one space @ the beginning of a line is a tab, two is 2, etc09:51
kwwiiwe might want to move that page to replace /Artwork/Incoming09:52
nothlitoh, well we're also working on a contribution guideline, that ones for people who want to start a new page/concept09:53
kwwiireally nice to see things moving right along :-)09:53
lassegulkwwii: what did you think about:09:58
lassegul20:51 < kwwii> D) Communication 1) Mailing list 2) IRC 3) art.ubuntu.com 4) Art  on Forum???09:58
lassegul4) Art on forum?? We should link to ubuntuforums artwork section?09:58
lassegulWouldnt that just make more mess?09:59
_MMA_lassegul: I wouldnt link to the art section but to a specific thread that you should contain feedback to.09:59
lassegul_MMA_: I see.10:00
_MMA_Otherwise you'll have things spread all over. It will most likely happen anyway but it should be noted in the "official" thread that thats the only one that matters.10:01
_MMA_Though the working could be better than that.10:01
lassegulshould we put in the art.ubuntu.com and the thread now, or keep the out until they are created?10:02
kwwiilassegul: yeah, that is why I had a question mark by it :-910:02
_MMA_lassegul: You could do the text for it now but comment it out until things are in place.10:03
kwwiiwe can either leave out auc for now, or put it in with a "coming soon" next to it10:03
lassegulthats cool :D10:03
=== _MMA_ just hides stuff so he doesn't get bugged.
_MMA_"When is soon?" 10 times a day in #ubuntustudio.10:04
kwwiiyeah, it will just cause more confusion and annoyance10:04
lassegulok hidden it is10:05
lassegulhow do you comment things out on the wiki?10:05
lassegul_MMA_: thanks10:05
_MMA_I think the 2 are needed.10:05
=== kwwii exports pics from the walk today, uploads to flickr
lassegulbut what is the point of the forum thread?10:07
kwwiilassegul: just leave it out for now10:08
nothlitam i allowed to use canadian/british spelling? i don't like writing color and customization10:11
lassegulnothlit: how do you write customization?10:11
_MMA_lassegul: For Ubuntu Studio I will use it to pool the users and get feedback. Ill start it off as simple chat then have a poll added later once final submissions are in place. Thats just me.10:13
kwwiinothlit: feel free to spell as you wish :-)10:15
kwwiiwe can always make fun of you later :p10:15
_MMA_Yeah. I showed the U-S wiki to my guys and spelling was all they could comment on. Tremendous help. :)10:16
_MMA_Its still kinds bad because Firefox checks spelling. :)10:16
nothlitWoot! I reworked the technical resources page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation10:17
nothlitthis is what it looked like before https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation?action=recall&rev=2510:17
nothlitthe new links courtesy of andresn10:17
kwwiierm, now I know what we forgot on the main page...a link to resources like logos, etc10:20
_MMA_nothlit: The links in the themeing section could be cleaner formatted like: [http://library.gnome.org/admin/gdm/stable/thememanual.html.en Themed Greeter] 10:20
_MMA_Just an idea. :)10:21
kwwiierm, that is what you just did, probably best to link to that on the main page10:21
=== calavera [n=cal@195.Red-80-26-32.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
=== SloggerKhan [n=SloggerK@dhcp-9687bfac.rescomp.arizona.edu] has joined #ubuntu-artwork
SloggerKhanMissed the meeting but it looks like it went fine in the log.10:25
nothlitwow... do we need emerald documentation in there or something? =/10:27
_MMA_Compiz-fusion now.10:28
_MMA_(Im guessing)10:28
kwwiiahhh, now I see10:29
_MMA_I would say dont take submissions on that as it would be better to just let Compiz use its Metacity capability/plugin/whatever.10:30
kwwiiwell, it might be helpfull for anyone wanting to create or tweak some effect although that is more technical10:30
nothlitemerald or cgwd or whatever ubuntu is using for atlernate compositing window decoration10:31
_MMA_I guess it all depends on the amount of "bling" you want to allow. I think Compiz itself allows for more effects than Metacity.10:32
_MMA_Effects on the window decorations that is.10:33
_MMA_kwwii: What do you feel about themeing the panels? http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3427/screenshottd5.png I love doing it. We do it in Ubuntu Studio, though it does have its issues. http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3746/screenshot1hy0.png There's also an issue when looking at the "properties" on a panel launcher.10:38
nothlit_MMA_: i fixed the page =p10:39
nothlitdarkmatter has discovered the secret to theming everything needed10:39
_MMA_nothlit: Perrdy10:40
nothlit_MMA_: ouch @ the ss10:40
kwwii_MMA_: I like it, I think that we will use a bg pic for the panel in hard10:40
_MMA_There will surely be bugs filed based off if what I said above. I wish I could give the GNOME guys a fix for this.10:41
_MMA_nothlit: darkmatter is indeed a GTK genius if you can keep him around.10:43
nothlita bg pic? it has to be scalable or people will run into issues with large fonts or changing the size10:44
nothlittiling issues =/10:44
_MMA_Yes. Over 24px for the panels starts to tile them and under chops off the image.10:45
_MMA_24px is just the standard size. 20px image and 20px panel works fine.10:46
_MMA_But it looks Ohhh... so nice when done right even with the issues. :)10:47
nothlitkwwii: do we replace https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/PageTemplate with the platypus example or keep it seperate10:57
kwwiinothlit: I think that we could leave it and create a new template with the platypus example...call it ArtworkProjectTemplate or such11:00
kwwiiwhat do you think?11:00
nothlitoh ok sure11:01
nothliti know that the two pages serve slightly different purposes11:01
nothliti was just wondering how often/needed it was for things other that artwork concepts11:01
kwwiiif we find that we do not need the other we can remove it11:03
nothlitkwwii: do we turn D) Communication 1) Mailing list 2) IRC 3) art.ubuntu.com 4) Art on Forum??? into a replacement of  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/GetInvolved ?11:03
nothlitthere isn't much communication that goes on in launchpad, and not much most people actually do on it in terms of artwork11:04
kwwiiI think that that page is still kinda good to have around, perhaps we should keep it and link to it from the main page with something like (for more information) or such11:05
_MMA_kwwii: Who's the "go-between" for what comes out of the WIKI and what gets packaged? dholbach?11:07
kwwii_MMA_: unfortunately there is nobody anymore11:08
kwwii_MMA_: they tried to get me to do it :p11:08
kwwiibut I will have a long talk with them in boston11:09
_MMA_Maybe I can lend you one of my guys. :)11:09
kwwiidholbach was the person11:09
kwwiihehe, sell him to me :-)11:09
_MMA_Reason I asked was management of things on bzr and LP.11:09
kwwiiwe really need to find someone to take care of the packaging side of things11:10
kwwiiat this time the answer is: ask someone on #ubuntu-desktop or #ubuntu-devel11:10
_MMA_Most of the source packaging is pretty strait-forward. The iconset is the real pisser.11:11
=== nothlit looks at joejaxx ;p
_MMA_Hell no!! That kid needs sleep.11:11
nothlitoh nm, hes driving atm11:11
_MMA_kwwii: Im totally sure you could do the bzr and LP changes. You would just need someone to push the changes to the archive.11:13
kwwii_MMA_: at the time, I am taking care of it...all the new packages for gutsy were made by me11:14
kwwiiand I give them to pitti or someone to include11:14
_MMA_Oh killer.11:14
kwwiibut it gets really annoying having to handle launchpad, edit python scripts and such, build a source deb and then find someone to convince to include it11:15
kwwiimy job is to do the artwork, not to do the artwork packaging :p11:15
kwwiiI have no problem with doing bzr, that seems easy enough11:15
_MMA_Believe me. I totally understand. ;)11:17
nothlitkwwii: whats the Community Artwork mean, just random wallpapers etc uploaded to art.ubuntu.com, or do you mean anything that doesn't follow sabdfls wants for the cycle11:17
kwwiinothlit: I mean anything that someone starts like blubuntu or my greengrass for example11:17
=== lassegul gets cookies.
kwwiian entire theme based on an idea which is different than the concept and palette for the default artwork11:18
nothlitoh ok11:18
nothlitkwwii: do you have a particular license? or do we allow CC, Artistic License, BSD, GPL, etc11:19
nothlitalso is CC-NC workable for ubuntu or not permitted11:19
kwwiiI think that we have to allow all of them but we should suggest CCbySA I think11:19
nothlitlassegul: bah, now i want cookies. what type are you eating11:20
nothlitok sure11:20
_MMA_Anything that conforms to DFSG most likely.11:20
kwwiias we are not selling ubuntu I think that CC-NC is okay but should be frowned upon11:20
nothlitkwwii: does it have to be a free license, or are we also permitted private/commercial works that give ubuntu license11:20
lassegulnothlit: maryland choc chips and hazelnuts and a glass of fresh cold norwegian milk.11:20
kwwiione thing that is very important is that people state which license they are going to use11:20
kwwiinothlit: I think that to avoid problems it has to be a free license of some sort11:21
_MMA_DFSG - http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines11:22
nothlitamerican, south african, or unported11:23
_MMA_Yay! My GIMP issue is gonna get fixed. :) Bug 13156411:25
ubotuLaunchpad bug 131564 in gimp "crashes when using the small theme" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/13156411:25
nothlitthats not a medium bug, thats critical.11:25
_MMA_To us sure. :)11:26
_MMA_I dont know if they're gonna fix the system sounds issue either. Which I feel is more important.11:27
nothlitgimp is unusable without the small theme to all but seniors, i would say myopics, but i'm one and have no trouble11:28
kwwiismall theme?11:29
nothlitmakes the text and the icons smaller for more usable screen estate11:29
nothlitits just a premade custom gtkrc11:29
kwwiilol, I never saw that until now11:30
kwwiiand my laptop only has a 12" monitor11:30
nothlitsame :D11:30
darkmatternothlit : yes, but theming everything needed makes for one BIG theme :P11:30
nothlitdarkmatter: ubuntu needs completeness :D11:31
darkmatterlol. yes. and less bugs ;)11:31
nothlitdarkmatter: and wonderful natural buttons like glory!11:31
kwwiiit is a feature, not a bug - http://sinecera.de/feature_not_bug.jpg11:35
nothlitYou don't have permission to access /feature_not_bug.jpg on this server.11:36
nothlitoh... LOL11:36
=== kwwii just uploaded pics from today to http://www.flickr.com/photos/kwwii/
kwwiimade a tea, now it is time for bed (early for a change)11:38
_MMA_Yay! Sleep!11:39
kwwiiI get the feeling that tomorrow is going to be another long day11:40
kwwiinight all11:40
_MMA_Yeah. A "long day" of dog-walking and duck-eating. :)11:42
_MMA_Night sir.11:42
lassegulgood night.11:42
nothlitto the lurking not yet asleep k wii, this is what we have so far https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/hardy/text/MainPage.txt11:44
nothlitand good night =p11:44
nothlit_MMA_: i thought it was child walking for biology leaf collection11:44
_MMA_Oh. :) I missed that.11:45
kwwii_sleepnothlit: looks pretty good so far ;-)11:45
kwwii_sleepchild, dog - what is the difference?11:45
kwwii_sleepthey are both loud, eat a lot, make a big mess, can make you happy at times, sad at times, annoyed at times11:46
nothlit_MMA_: look, i made sure to include UbuntuStudio artwork :D =p11:46
kwwii_sleepoh wait, the one can speak11:46
kwwii_sleepwith that, I bid you adue11:47
nothlit_MMA_: Currently we are attempting to collect all art related people under the ubuntu-art team on Launchpad.  This has been quite successful thus far, and therefore one should consider the ubuntu-art team as a good starting point for work.11:49
nothlitdoes that apply to uS?11:49
_MMA_Its the reason Im in here now.11:50
SloggerKhaneventually a child can help support you in your old age... at least if you raise them well.11:51
_MMA_Id also like to see however handles Xubuntu's stuff in here.11:51
lassegulim turning in. good night all.11:52
_MMA_Night sir.11:52
nothlitlast wiki formatting resource https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnFormatting12:02
nothlit_MMA_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio looks soo snazzy with all the tables12:03

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