[01:08] <kwwii> I get the feeling that no mattter what i said this "is *exactly* the target audience of ubuntu that troy_s would disagree
[01:09] <kwwii> funny that he never steps up and says his opinion but seems to spend more time discussing others opinions and being sarcastic
[01:09] <kwwii> sick of that
[01:09] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Hey man... short term memory back to Edgy eh?
[01:10] <Misosaki> With due respect, the meeting was a a sign we are getting somewhere, but there is still much to be rolled out before the designers can actually get to work.
[01:11] <kwwii_away> troy_s: no, I am tired of you being negative and sarcastic without being helpful
[01:12] <kwwii_away> you have so much to offer but you always try to be so negative when we finally have chance to change things
[01:12] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Actually, if you look to what I say, and not what you _want_ me to say, you will probably see the logic.  I just find it ironic that in this day and age you want optimism when you were possibly the most bullish during Edgy when it came to establishing a process.
[01:12] <troy_s> kwwii_away: It isn't a negativity.  I have a serious caution when it comes to where Ubuntu can go.  Ultimately, as we _both_ know, the big hurdle is sabdfl.
[01:13] <kwwii_away> troy_s: and what does that have to do with the future?
[01:13] <kwwii_away> try, and try again
[01:13] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Well as far as I am concerned, the _current_ gets you to the future.
[01:13] <kwwii_away> if you really care
[01:14] <kwwii_away> I think that the more you work against the current efforts just shows how much you are not interested in working towards the futures as now we finally have a chance at changing things...I do not need people telling me what is wrong but people telling me how to do things right
[01:14] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Whoa.  How am I working against the current effort?
[01:15] <Misosaki> Will there be another meeting soon, and when will the things the designers need to get started (e.g. palette, etc.) be released?
[01:16] <kwwii_away> just stop being negative please...I know that you could help, if you tried - you know what you are talking about just try to move the effort forward instead of putting down everything that we have done
[01:16] <kwwii_away> Misosaki: I think that we will need another meeting sooner rather than later
[01:16] <kwwii_away> probably within the next few weeks
[01:17] <Misosaki> kwwii_away: Okay. Because some people look like they want to get started.
[01:18] <Misosaki> kwwii_away: *Just asking because
[01:18] <kwwii_away> Misosaki: yeah, that is why I think it would probably be good to have a meeting soon...I'll send an email to the list with more info soon
[01:19] <troy_s> kwwii_away: The gap is between sabdfl and what happens in terms of dev.  That is a fundamental problem -- not being bloody negative!
[01:19] <kwwii_away> troy_s: how has sabdfl been negative so far in this process?
[01:19] <troy_s> kwwii_away: ?!?!?!?!
[01:20] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Where the hell did I type that?
[01:20] <kwwii_away> The gap is between sabdfl and what happens in terms of dev. That is a fundamental problem
[01:20] <kwwii_away> that is what you said
[01:20] <troy_s> kwwii_away: I cited the fundamental problem (which is the same one over and over again) -- I have yet to see any motion towards migrating that.
[01:21] <Misosaki> kwwii_away: And this time, it would be nice if the audience and communication thing were addressed thoroughly once and for all.
[01:21] <troy_s> kwwii_away:  I said that wasn't me being negative.  I merely pointed out a hurdle.  I don't know how to negotiate that as it is a tremendous one.
[01:21] <kwwii_away> Misosaki: yepp, I agree
[01:22] <kwwii_away> troy_s: then I will tell you that it is not a problem as it has been before
[01:23] <kwwii_away> anyway
[01:23] <kwwii_away> time for bed
[01:23] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Wonderful.  And he intends to actually steer the boat?
[01:23] <kwwii_away> to some extent yes but not like it was in the previous releases
[01:24] <troy_s> (and by steer the boat I mean to actually give clear 'yes' or 'no' directionality -- not sit like a cheerleader.)
[01:25] <kwwii_away> he already took a much lesser step in the design for gutsy
[01:25] <kwwii_away> he told me what he liked, nothing more
[01:25] <kwwii_away> and he trusts me much more now
[01:25] <kwwii_away> the point, as I always said was about building trust
[01:26] <kwwii_away> nobody ever wanted to get that before
[01:26] <kwwii_away> everyone wanted to say "I like this" while that never formed a consensus
[01:26] <kwwii_away> no wonder that he stepped in and took control
[01:26] <kwwii_away> somebody had to
[01:26] <troy_s> kwwii_away: I don't understand how the end was much different?
[01:27] <kwwii_away> even if they did not know everything
[01:27] <Misosaki> kwwii_away: Then you'll be sure to pass the word on as to what he wants?
[01:27] <kwwii_away> lol, then you never worked in this branch
[01:27] <troy_s> kwwii_away: I suppose it is two sides to the trust -- one of the sabdfl side and one of the people who might be able to do the work.
[01:27] <kwwii_away> yes, that is part of my job
[01:27] <troy_s> and perhaps two perspectives on a situation.
[01:27] <kwwii_away> to work for the community and for the company
[01:28] <kwwii_away> but first I had to earn trust with the company - they are paying for this after all
[01:31] <kwwii_away> someone pays 10 million euros a year for something which he gives away for free and people get all freaky that he wants to get what he thinks is right and people get all freaky about it - i simply do not understand that
[01:32] <kwwii_away> anyway...goodnight
[01:33] <kwwii_away> things will change, that much I promise
[01:33] <troy_s> kwwii_away: I have said all along, I have _zero_ problem with sabdfl wanting things his way.  Zero zippo zip -- hence my complete detachment from any process -- what he wants is very clearly something different than what some want.
[01:33] <kwwii_away> just be positice
[01:33] <kwwii_away> positive
[01:33] <kwwii_away> troy_s: that will always be the case no matter who is in charge
[01:34] <kwwii_away> you will never please all the people all of the time
[01:34] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Well no kidding.  The thinking was more along the bigger pictures of actually attempting to challenge a given population of market.
[01:34] <troy_s> kwwii_away: I believe I posted that Aesop a while ago.  It is all about percentages.  I suppose the question is what percentages does one trust.
[01:35] <kwwii_away> then why don't you step up and say what you think so that we know which percertage you belong to
[01:36] <kwwii_away> you seem to like to step between things so that you can always be negative
[01:36] <kwwii_away> sorry to say that
[01:36] <kwwii_away> but I think you could help so much yet you do not
[01:37] <troy_s> kwwii_away: I have said my piece.  And I am sorry you view my stance as negative, in my eyes the elements I try to highlight are what my experience and guts are telling me might hinder say -- the arrival at a F7 presentation.
[01:37] <troy_s> kwwii_away: If we were to localize a goal.
[01:37] <kwwii_away> I think that if you put more effort in trying to help the process than being negative about it we would get much further
[01:38] <troy_s> kwwii_away: I TRIED TO HELP A PROCESS AND I HAD SOMEONE SITTING RIGHT THERE BEING AT LEAST AS NEGATIVE.
[01:38] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Which I have long since forgiven and moved on about.  Now I am quite interested to see alternates.
[01:38] <kwwii_away> dude, the fact the frank failed is not due to him, he is kid with no experience
[01:39] <troy_s> Did I once blame Frank?
[01:39] <kwwii_away> I told you in advance that I did not think his approach would work at that ime
[01:39] <kwwii_away> time
[01:39] <kwwii_away> not that he did not have good ieas
[01:39] <troy_s> And you strove like a bugger to make that vision happen.
[01:39] <kwwii_away> ideads
[01:39] <kwwii_away> no, I had nothing to do with it
[01:39] <kwwii_away> I only worked on kubuntu at the time
[01:40] <kwwii_away> which is easy
[01:40] <troy_s> You sat on the sidelines and puddled.  C'mon... I was there.
[01:40] <kwwii_away> you can do anything with kubuntu and nobody will care
[01:40] <terlmann> heya kwwiii
[01:40] <kwwii_away> I was only paid to work on that
[01:40] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Granted that with Kubuntu, not many care.
[01:40] <kwwii_away> there are so many eyes on ubuntu that is has to be perfect
[01:41] <terlmann> given, troy_s. Only thing to do with opposition is shoot it.
[01:41] <kwwii_away> and we need people like you to help us
[01:41] <terlmann> SHOOT IIT
[01:41] <kwwii_away> but we need you to be helpfull and not negative
[01:41] <_MMA_> terlmann: You really need to stay out of this.
[01:41] <kwwii_away> terlmann: take a piss for while, will you?
[01:41] <troy_s> kwwii_away: I can't help.  I have no idea how to help the situation.  The biggest problem (again not being negative) is that the first pass of process failed SOLELY because sabdfl was a missing member of the panel.
[01:42] <kwwii_away> troy_s: yes, I agree on why it failed in the past
[01:42] <kwwii_away> that is not point
[01:42] <kwwii_away> I tried to explain why it would not work at the time but you and frank did not want to listen to me
[01:42] <troy_s> kwwii_away: If somewhere, from someone up high you can get who the heck Hardy is going to aim at we might win.  I still feel that on some level the uber-conservativism might be an attempt to pull in an business market.
[01:42] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Are you kidding me?
[01:42] <kwwii_away> there was no way it would work as you expected at the time
[01:43] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Do you have any idea how hard Frank tried to get sabdfl to get involved and make an executive call on things?
[01:43] <terlmann> I quote my self : <terlmann> Mark , I would like to say that the community and you are not unified. Your in control of this and we know it. But whether your controlling hand is a shaky one or a firm one , that detail is not known.
[01:43] <troy_s> kwwii_away: I mean seriously kwwii_away, Frank is no idiot.
[01:43] <joejaxx> terlmann: just be quiet
[01:43] <kwwii_away> yes I do, and I felt sorry for him at the time, and I told him so way in advance
[01:43] <kwwii_away> terlmann: shut up, please
[01:43] <terlmann> ok
[01:44] <troy_s> kwwii_away: It was less about frank and more about the very real disjointed nature of the client and the work that needs to be done.
[01:44] <kwwii_away> troy_s: I told him exactly what the problems would be and they all came ture
[01:44] <kwwii_away> ture
[01:44] <kwwii_away> ahhh
[01:44] <kwwii_away> true
[01:44] <troy_s> kwwii_away: I don't think _anyone_ could negotiate that.
[01:44] <kwwii_away> troy_s: I agree there was no way to deal with that
[01:44] <troy_s> kwwii_away: And I still am wondering if _anything_ has changed in that department.  Remember -- at the head of it Mark was identical in _stance_ but the _dance_ was way off.
[01:44] <kwwii_away> the only way to deal with it was to work things out over time
[01:45] <kwwii_away> troy_s: I know it was bad, and I saw it coming, and I warned frank again and again that he would be the scape-goat
[01:46] <troy_s> kwwii_away: It was most unfortunate because I personally told sabdfl at the very beginning that to gain the trust (the other side of trust) it would take patience and _time_.
[01:46] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Unfortunately, that all got burned in the barn, as well as some very decent talent.
[01:47] <kwwii_away> the thing is, that explainig to him the problems is too much...he does not need the problems, he needs the answers
[01:47] <kwwii_away> and now he is ready to accept the answers
[01:47] <troy_s> kwwii_away: I asked nearly day one for anything -- a sample of what he considers 'good design'
[01:47] <troy_s> kwwii_away: And even still, it seems all we have is a page out of a magazine... lol.
[01:47] <kwwii_away> at that time I do not think that anything would make him happy excecpt doing exactly what he wanted
[01:48] <troy_s> kwwii_away:  Hey man -- he had a willing legion at one point.
[01:48] <troy_s> kwwii_away: No one could find out.
[01:48] <kwwii_away> agreed
[01:49] <kwwii_away> that is why I warned frank
[01:49] <troy_s> kwwii_away: It was like milking blood from a stone.  He probably falls into that category of the personality that really doesn't know what it likes or has never had to quantify it.  That's fine, but not so fine for the fools who have to try and replicate it.
[01:49] <kwwii_away> ask him, I told him in advance
[01:49] <kwwii_away> I warned him of what I thought he was walking into
[01:49] <kwwii_away> and it all came true
[01:49] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Anways, before you bed, see if Canonical is mature enough to have a stated audience and goal.  And by audience, let's try and boil it down into a standard demographic lol.
[01:50] <kwwii_away> dude, I will make it come true or I will loose my job
[01:50] <troy_s> kwwii_away: How so?
[01:50] <kwwii_away> I wish that I has someone like frank to help me now
[01:50] <kwwii_away> he would be a good partner in this now
[01:50] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Frank will avoid free software like the plague.
[01:50] <kwwii_away> at the time he was just screwed because of the situation
[01:51] <kwwii_away> and I told him so
[01:51] <kwwii_away> again and again
[01:51] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Oh the other side of that bloody gongshow -- aside from pissing off community members and capable folks -- was that all the people who actually LEARNED from that experience went 'poof' in a puff of smoke.
[01:51] <kwwii_away> ask him
[01:51] <kwwii_away> yepp, what a waste of talent
[01:52] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Well let's put it this way -- your 'warning' was viewed as being rather negative on the whole situation.  I don't think Frank minds about the result actually.  Most things like that are about the journey anyways.
[01:52] <troy_s> kwwii_away: The talent can be regrown -- the learning experience can't.
[01:52] <troy_s> (well without repeating, and I don't think many people are up for that.)
[01:52] <kwwii_away> but what did you expect me to do? I said again and again to you and frank at UDS Paris that there where problems but you did not want to listen to me
[01:52] <troy_s> kwwii_away: ?  If the goal was to establish a process isn't that what one should do -- do or die?
[01:53] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Or you can start politicking.
[01:53] <kwwii_away> it is not a matter of the community growing...it was a matter of other people seeing the reality of things
[01:53] <troy_s> kwwii_away: And I guess we differ in views on that.
[01:53] <kwwii_away> sabdfl had to see and trust those around him first
[01:54] <kwwii_away> that means doing what he wants and showing him what he wants first
[01:54] <kwwii_away> and then moving on
[01:54] <troy_s> kwwii_away: And at that point, neither was possible.  He wasn't able to vocalize _anything_, nor did he seem interested to.
[01:54] <kwwii_away> first you have to gain trust and then you can move on
[01:54] <kwwii_away> it was all too much at one time
[01:55] <kwwii_away> I told frank that, ask him
[01:55] <kwwii_away> I warned him before he even took the job
[01:56] <kwwii_away> the situation was fscked up, and i saw that in advance
[01:56] <kwwii_away> luckily I was only responsible for kubuntu at the time -he did not care about that
[01:57] <kwwii_away> and to be honest, the better I did at that the more I earned his trust, funny enough
[01:57] <kwwii_away> I hated the feisty artwork
[01:57] <kwwii_away> for ubuntu
[01:57] <kwwii_away> but it made him happy to some extent
[01:58] <kwwii_away> and it gained trust
[01:58] <troy_s> kwwii_away:  Whatever one thinks they were 'right' about is irrelevant.  The simple fact was that any of the works would have been better than what ended up in E.  That's the great silly.
[01:58] <kwwii_away> god, why do I have to go through this on an open irc channel?
[01:58] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Transparency.
[01:58] <kwwii_away> troy_s: I agree totally
[01:58] <kwwii_away> edgy turned out to be total shit
[01:59] <troy_s> kwwii_away: Well... arguably since Dapper they have been.
[01:59] <kwwii_away> well, it was as bad as feisty wa
[01:59] <kwwii_away> was
[01:59] <kwwii_away> and I made that shit
[01:59] <troy_s> kwwii_away: And again, that is more about how much Canonical is willing to move.  All the talent and execution in the world is worth nothing if people aren't going to be willing to roll with it.
[01:59] <kwwii_away> but maybe we can slowly move forward
[02:00] <troy_s> kwwii_away: I don't know.  I would love to see what sabdfl has to say on things.  I wonder how he feels about the long string of debacles.
[02:00] <kwwii_away> so let#s not be negative but move forward
[02:01] <kwwii_away> if you really were to ask him honestly you would only set things back I think
[02:01] <troy_s> lol.
[02:02] <kwwii> can you understand how there is a point between being honest and being honest?
[02:02] <kwwii> I tried to tell frank that he was screwed from the start
[02:02] <kwwii> nothing he did was bad
[02:03] <kwwii> but he could never do what he was intended to do and make it
[02:03] <kwwii> now maybe we have a chance
[02:03] <troy_s> I have no complaints with anyone other than sabdfl choosing to avoid issues.  I have a major complaint with the way it was spun.  Utter tripe.
[02:03] <kwwii> so let's make the most of it and move forward
[02:04] <troy_s> I believe I have been.  I have stuck around and kept contributing -- albeit I have chosen to not really bother with the Ubuntu thing as it still feels all too familiar.
[02:05] <kwwii> yes, I do admit that you have been more positive than ever before
[02:05] <troy_s> ?
[02:05] <troy_s> lol... sure.
[02:05] <terlmann> kwwii : would you be willing to appoint more persons to draw up resolutions for sabdfl to approve ?
[02:06] <kwwii> but you have to understand how hard it has been for me to talk to you in the past in an open irc channel although I might have agreed with you on many points
[02:06] <troy_s> I just do what I do.  I can't suggest for a second that I can deliver content that will work.  That said, the fundamental flaws with Ubuntu are well known -- even the forum people (if you pour over some of the comments) hit on the possible paths to salvation.
[02:07] <kwwii> terlmann: no, unless sabdfl tells me so
[02:07] <terlmann> Knowing the answers to the problem is what you need ol benevolent to have , not the problems themselves. Perhaps if you set up some committees of your own you might get something done.
[02:07] <troy_s> terlmann: You have to understand -- sabdfl is worth half a billion dollars -- he really could care less.
[02:07] <kwwii> troy_s: i think that you have come
[02:07] <troy_s> terlmann: He has the world by the beets.
[02:07] <kwwii> erm
[02:08] <terlmann> the richest man in the world could care about the smallest things of all. Just try it.
[02:08] <terlmann> anyway I am talking about indirect resolution , not direct
[02:08] <terlmann> we report to you
[02:08] <kwwii> troy_s: I think that you have come *very* close to what *we* want and that shows that you do know what is *needed*
[02:08] <troy_s> terlmann: confucius, you can't possibly be a bloody fortune cookie.
[02:08] <terlmann> you give the ideas to him , not us
[02:09] <troy_s> kwwii: I doubt that sincerely.
[02:09] <troy_s> lol
[02:09] <kwwii> terlmann: I have been very lienent (sl
[02:09] <kwwii> spelling)
[02:09] <troy_s> terlmann: In the end, no one has the 'way out'.
[02:09] <kwwii> terlmann: please stop
[02:09] <_MMA_> Oh christ. terlmann cant you just stay out of the conversation? Let it die for tonight. Let kwwii sleep.
[02:09] <terlmann> lenient = tolerance of stupidity. I see this is pointless. Good night.
[02:10] <kwwii> terlmann: I will stop you if you do not know how to stop yourself
[02:10] <troy_s> Ouch.  A little on the uh... hard.
[02:10] <kwwii> what an idiot
[02:10] <kwwii> I am sick of him
[02:10] <troy_s> We are all idiots.
[02:10] <kwwii> I tried to be tolerant
[02:10] <troy_s> I was having trouble figuring out what he was trying to say... let alone get angry with him.
[02:10] <kwwii> but I am fed up with his stupidtiy
[02:10] <kwwii> lol
[02:11] <kwwii> maybe I just had enough
[02:11] <joejaxx> lol
[02:11] <_MMA_> troy_s: He just continually get the subtle hints to chill.
[02:11] <joejaxx> the anger is justified
[02:11] <nothlit> wow, finally
[02:11] <kwwii> thanks joejaxx
[02:11] <_MMA_> *continually doesnt
[02:11] <joejaxx> kwwii: you are most welcome
[02:11] <kwwii> thanks nothlit
[02:11] <_MMA_> Sleep!!
[02:11] <kwwii> yeah, good idea
[02:12] <joejaxx> _MMA_: lol
[02:13] <kwwii> troy_s: please do not think that I am trying to be negative - I just want us to all work together as best is possible at the time
[02:13] <kwwii> I wish that frank were still around to keep up on things
[02:13] <kwwii> anyeay
[02:13] <kwwii> anyway
[02:13] <kwwii> time for sleep
[02:13] <troy_s> kwwii: I am all for it assuming that the boy with the big stick is on the same page.  Remember -- sabdfl was positive about things -- but he can change his tune quickly.
[02:13] <joejaxx> Goodnight kwwii :)
[02:13] <troy_s> kwwii: night.
[02:13] <Misosaki> Night kwwii
[02:14] <kwwii> troy_s: and if so I will loose my job just as quickly, so it life
[02:14] <kwwii> but I have to try
[02:19] <troy_s> Hi terlmann
[02:20] <terlmann> is he asleep ?
[02:20] <Misosaki> No, Big Brother is watching you. ;)
[02:20] <terlmann> better not be
[02:21] <terlmann> Big Brother seems an insomniac
[02:21] <joejaxx> that would be me
[02:21] <Misosaki> lols What time at your end, joejaxx ?
[02:21] <joejaxx> 20:21
[02:21] <joejaxx> but i normally do not sleep
[02:21] <joejaxx> it stinks
[02:22] <terlmann> in the mountains joe ?
[02:22] <Misosaki> Sleep has an odour?
[02:22] <_MMA_> terlmann: You're just dont get it. You're rubbing alot of people the wrong way. You need to chill.
[02:22] <terlmann> YEA
[02:22] <joejaxx> Misosaki: :P
[02:22] <_MMA_> s/you're/you
[02:22] <terlmann> say somthing contrary and you get flamed
[02:23] <Misosaki> joejaxx: :)
[02:24] <_MMA_> terlmann: Please read over this and examine your actions. http://apachecon.com/2006/US/presentations/FR13/FR13-Poisonous-people.pdf
[02:24] <troy_s> terlmann: I don't know if what you said was contrary.
[02:25] <troy_s> terlmann: I was actually having trouble understanding what you said at all.
[02:27] <terlmann> Well I am a strange bird , that is true. but go over my words again. I was simply asking some questions I don't think anyone has asked before. That said perhaps at the time it was the wrong time to say them.
[02:27] <kwwii_away> terlmann: no, I am not asleep if that make you feel better
[02:27] <terlmann> GO TO SLEEP
[02:27] <joejaxx> terlmann: you seriously need to stop this is not a Halo 3 chatroom
[02:28] <_MMA_> terlmann: Strange or not you need to learn when NOT it inject yourself into things.
[02:28] <_MMA_> s/it/to
[02:28] <terlmann> Ok.
[02:29] <troy_s> everyone go back to idling.
[02:29] <terlmann> Um , send ken to bed
[02:29] <nothlit> there has been no idling, we've all been watching
[02:29] <terlmann> then I can argue with the rest of you
[02:30] <_MMA_> That happened in another, terlmann-free channel. ;)
[02:30] <terlmann> I was THERE
[02:30] <kwwii_away> yeah, then stay there
[02:30] <terlmann> I was there and wisely kept my trap shut
[02:30] <joejaxx> _MMA_: :P
[02:31] <_MMA_> Naa. you didnt get the joke. ;)
[02:31] <terlmann> your whole meeting lasted one hour and I said not one word in it :-D
[02:31] <_MMA_> lol
[02:31] <joejaxx> lol
[02:31] <_MMA_> You assume I mean ubuntu-meeting.
[02:31] <terlmann> YES
[02:31] <terlmann> but no
[02:32] <terlmann> your probably refering to something else
[02:32] <_MMA_> "ass"ume
[02:32] <terlmann> something mystical
[02:32] <terlmann> from before time
[02:32] <_MMA_> There's no way you're 19. Even someone of that age would get the hint.
[02:32] <terlmann> I am 19
[02:33] <terlmann> and I can prove it
[02:33] <joejaxx> uh oh
[02:33] <joejaxx> lol
[02:33] <_MMA_> Thats sad if its true.
[02:33] <terlmann> I may be mentally retarded in fact but I still want to act something older.
[02:33] <_MMA_> And honestly, there's no way to prove it online. It can all be fake.
[02:33] <kwwii_away> do your mystical, before time meeting on your own or you will get kicked from this channel, trust me
[02:33] <troy_s> _MMA_: See, and you give toby a hard time.
[02:34] <terlmann> kwwii
[02:34] <kwwii_away> i do not care how old you are
[02:34] <nothlit> _MMA_: chain of trust in person with gpg keys
[02:34] <terlmann> I stayed out of the meeting
[02:34] <terlmann> I did
[02:34] <nothlit> but webcams can be faked easily
[02:34] <kwwii_away> either be productive or leave
[02:34] <terlmann> I promise I will stay out of anything important
[02:34] <joejaxx> nothlit: lol with biometrics
[02:34] <_MMA_> troy_s: Yeah. Im writing a apology email now.
[02:34] <troy_s> _MMA_: LOL
[02:34] <joejaxx> IanC26: nice ipv6 ;)
[02:34] <Misosaki> Hi IanC26
[02:35] <kwwii_away> terlmann: then there is no reason for you to be in this channel and expect to have a say in anything
[02:35] <terlmann> I don't
[02:35] <terlmann> I expect the unexpected
[02:35] <terlmann> I guess I am wrong
[02:35] <kwwii_away> yes, you are wrong
[02:35] <terlmann> Your only human , after all :-)
[02:36] <kwwii_away> if you only knew how many people have told me to kick you....
[02:37] <dmccall> Sorry to jump in blindly (and to disappear after sending this huge wad of text), but I think one problem here is that lots of this great artwork people mention is just a single piece. There is nothing else in the desktop to go with it, and it quite often appears too close to the wire for much collaboration to happen. (Icons, gdm, usplash, miscellaneous application artwork, default settings / effects... documentation). The current 
[02:37] <dmccall> In other words: Time for a single, unified mockup, posted early on, that people can look at and work on the actual components for immediately -- whether they are particularly happy about it or not. Working quickly at this is the only way to change Ubuntu's artwork, because the gradual, 'one chunk per release' approach simply can't work for a significant change in direction.
[02:37] <IanC26> I was amazed that it worked (IPv6 that is)!
[02:37] <joejaxx> IanC26: :D
[02:38] <kwwii_away> dmccall: totally agreed
[02:39] <kwwii_away> dmccall: the whole point of the new process is to facilitate that process
[02:39] <kwwii_away> lol, I said process twice in one sentence
[02:39] <kwwii_away> time for sleep
[02:39] <kwwii_away> I give up
[02:40] <kwwii_away> you can all deal with terlmann on your own
[02:40] <troy_s> LOL
[02:40] <Misosaki_> kwwii_away: lols Get some rest
[02:41] <joejaxx> LOL
[02:41] <joejaxx> Goodnight kwwii_away :)
[02:43] <kwwii_away> night joejaxx, Misosaki_, all
[02:43] <joejaxx> :)
[02:44] <nothlit> cyas, get some rest, 2 hours isn't good for anybody
[02:44] <terlmann> night bold hero
[02:45] <troy_s> terlmann: You are otkadeto right?
[02:45] <terlmann> no idea what that is , sorry
[02:46] <_MMA_> Oh sh!t! :)
[02:46] <_MMA_> lol
[02:46] <_MMA_> troy_s: Please say you have the quotes.
[02:46] <terlmann> Oh, a person like me.
[02:46] <terlmann> well , I tried to msg kwwi before he got off
[02:47] <terlmann> I said something that applies to all of you
[02:47] <Misosaki_> terlmann: We're people?
[02:47] <joejaxx> _MMA_: you know i log everything
[02:47] <terlmann> Acting my age is not going to happen  quickly, I am sorry to say to you. I just don't have the know-how to get a grip on the situation. I am always in good spirits about anything, and I am willing to be bold with the greatest and humble with the least. Just I am sorry you do not know WHY I do it.  Because if you did , your tolerance would , in retrospect , be limitless.
[02:48] <terlmann> There.
[02:48] <terlmann> Something for you to chew on.
[02:48] <Misosaki_> Well, maybe if you could tell us why you do what ... ?
[02:49] <terlmann> please digest the whole post first.
[02:49] <terlmann> chew thoughly
[02:49] <_MMA_> Sorry man. "limitless" aint gonna hapen with anyone but your parents.
[02:49] <terlmann> True , true.
[02:49] <troy_s> terlmann: More importantly, can you illustrate or draw?
[02:49] <terlmann> yes
[02:49] <kwwii_away> lol
[02:50] <kwwii_away> no you cannot
[02:50] <terlmann> hmm ?
[02:50] <_MMA_> God I wish I could kick Kenneth from the channel. :)
[02:50] <kwwii_away> lol
[02:50] <terlmann> I did this
[02:51] <terlmann> http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/338/ubuntulionbrandedxl9.jpg
[02:51] <terlmann> And I do some 3-d modelling for now
[02:51] <kwwii_away> I wish I could kick myself from the channel
[02:51] <_MMA_> terlmann: adding that logo takes nothing.
[02:52] <terlmann> not just a logo
[02:52] <terlmann> it was over 100 steps
[02:52] <nothlit> kwwii_away: get to sleep before we all have to put you on ignore to
[02:52] <terlmann> not just transparency
[02:52] <troy_s> terlmann: Ok -- so what made you choose to center punch the logo?
[02:52] <kwwii_away> wow, you added a logo to existing artwork
[02:52] <terlmann> ok , hold on
[02:52] <_MMA_> terlmann: than you're doing something wrong.
[02:52] <kwwii_away> amazing
[02:52] <kwwii_away> I am sick of this
[02:52] <_MMA_> I could do it in 5 mins in Inkscape or GIMP.
[02:52] <terlmann> I put some up on imageshack , but I need to find the links..
[02:53] <_MMA_> troy_s or joejaxx: Do you have the hamburger quote? :)
[02:53] <troy_s> ok find some links.
[02:54] <troy_s> "With that, I make hamburger for the akademy!"
[02:54] <_MMA_> :D
[02:55] <_MMA_> If you even attempt to figure it out you go cross-eyed.
[02:55] <joejaxx> LOL!
[02:55] <troy_s> terlmann: Links to your works?
[02:56] <terlmann> I said I am searching
[02:56] <_MMA_> I really hope you do. You tend to talk alot but show little.
[03:02] <_MMA_> terlmann: Ill read back to see what you post. If you dont. Ill ask tomorrow.
[03:02] <terlmann> 7000 google entries man
[03:03] <terlmann> I have to go through all of them
[03:03] <terlmann> my originals died in a crash
[03:03] <_MMA_> Im sorry man. Its just all too convenient.
[03:03] <terlmann> But for you to expect me to have something is rediculious
[03:03] <terlmann> how old am I ?
[03:04] <_MMA_> If your 19? Yes. Its expected.
[03:04] <terlmann> you take me seriously or as nonsense as YOU please.
[03:05] <_MMA_> Its up to YOU to put up or shut up and trust me if you dont take it upon yourself to shut up you will be forced.
[03:05] <terlmann> Just a word of wisdom for you : If you reject me now , as I act now, you will find it harder to accept me later , when I am actually acting the way you want . Ponder that for a while.
[03:05] <terlmann> I am going to "shut up" now.
[03:06] <nothlit> _|_: isn't this your stuff? http://terlmann.deviantart.com/
[03:06] <_MMA_> You still didnt say if you're 19 os not.
[03:06] <_MMA_> *or
[03:06] <_|_> That is my page , yes . About two years old.
[03:07] <_|_> I have not used it since I started going to college
[03:07] <_MMA_> Shouldnt a 19 year-old who talks so much about his art accomplishments have examples?
[03:07] <_MMA_> I have things going back to 10 years old.
[03:07] <_|_> no.
[03:07] <_|_> I have talked about my accomplishments >
[03:08] <_|_> no.
[03:08] <_|_> I bragged about how I could do better.
[03:08] <_|_> at managing.
[03:08] <_MMA_> You will find that your talking simply isnt enough.
[03:11] <_MMA_> And whats the point of changing your nick if you stay in the channel?
[03:11] <_|_>  In my Defense , you tend to like to talk to guys that impress you. Are as good or better than you at what you talk about. However, it becomes mute. The person you may be trying to talk to is too busy being impressive to talk to you.
[03:12] <_|_> _MMA_ : I won't leave the channel till I give you that link.
[03:12] <_MMA_> Then why change the nick?
[03:12] <_|_> to say Dont talk to me , I'm busy.
[03:18] <troy_s> the return of otkadeto.  I love it.
[03:19] <troy_s> _|_: When you say 'However, it becomes mute", you probably mean 'moot'.  Oft confused terms.
[03:19] <_MMA_> mmm..... hamburgers....
[03:19] <_|_> Thank you for the clarification.
[03:19] <joejaxx> do not forget the tinfoil
[03:19] <joejaxx> _MMA_: ^
[03:20] <_MMA_> ;)
[03:20] <joejaxx> lol
[03:20] <nothlit> http://people.csail.mit.edu/rahimi/helmet/
[03:22] <_MMA_> :)
[04:08] <_|_> http://img406.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ubuntuzm8.jpg
[04:08] <terlmann> good night
[04:10] <_MMA_> ?
[04:10] <_MMA_> Oh I call bullsh!t.
[04:37] <woodwizzle> Hello
[04:38] <woodwizzle> Are there any tools that make it easier to make custom icon themes?
[04:38] <woodwizzle> and I don't mean art tools. But tols to properly organize the files etc.
[04:59] <_MMA_> woodwizzle: Not that I have seen in a long time. Its a pretty manual process.
[05:14] <troy_s> woodwizzle: Your best bet is to ls the directory of Tango.
[05:14] <troy_s> woodwizzle: And fill in the non symlink'd icons with your plan.
[05:15] <troy_s> woodwizzle: The boys of Tango have done terrific work to make it integrate in terms of layout -- of course there are still some kludges and such, but that isn't their fault.
[05:52] <Misosaki> wb
[09:02] <mtholdenss> hey
[09:25] <lassegul> good morning!
[09:25] <mtholdenss> hey
[09:25] <mtholdenss> how did that meeting go yesterday?
[09:26] <lassegul> very good.
[09:26] <lassegul> you missed it?
[09:26] <mtholdenss> yeah, i live in australia, it was at 3 am in the morning, i needed sleep haha
[09:27] <lassegul> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20071002_1759.html check the log
[09:27] <mtholdenss> thanks
[09:27] <mtholdenss> ive been trying to find that
[09:55] <mtholdenss> is doing a partial upgrade on 7.10 beta good?
[01:48] <nothlit`alpha> troy_s:  woodwizzle, http://csl-waltz.forja.rediris.es/ something i saw on the tango list a while ago, but it doesn't seem to have gone  much further in development -- working download here https://forja.rediris.es/websvn/wsvn/csl-waltz/tags/?rev=0&sc=0
[01:49] <andreasn> oh, interesting
[01:49] <andreasn> I forgot about that
[02:18] <lassegul> nothlit`alpha: hi. did you get the chance to talk to kwwii about the wiki?
[02:26] <nothlit> lassegul: i pmed him a link of what we worked on before he went to sleep, he said he would look at it in the morning
[02:35] <kwwii_away> nothlit, lassegul: the wiki ideas look pretty good
[02:37] <_MMA_> Hi Kenneth.
[02:40] <_MMA_> kwwii_away: I think if you like their work/attitude nothlit & lassegul should be made the only people who maintain/organize the WIKI. (apart from you of course)
[02:42] <kwwii> hi Cory
[02:42] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I was just thinking the same thing
[02:43] <andreasn> kwwii: did the links I sent you work as a rough start?
[02:45] <kwwii> andreasn: yes, they look good as well
[02:45] <andreasn> I'll see if I can find some more
[02:46] <lassegul> hi kwwii; good that you liked it. we could skip the "funny" part on the template if yould like :P
[02:46] <kwwii> I am not sure how many people will actually read them but at least then they cannot say that the info was not available
[02:46] <lassegul> though i find inspiration from a platypus pretty funny.
[02:46] <kwwii> lassegul: seems to explain it well - leave it in :-)
[02:47] <lassegul> Ive even made concept art.
[02:47] <andreasn> kwwii: yeah
[02:47] <lassegul> I was counting on nothlit to create the colour pallette.
[02:47] <_MMA_> No Troy should. :)
[02:48] <lassegul> we better be careful not to end up with a platypus 8.04 default theme :S
[02:48] <kwwii> lassegul: on ething though - the guidelines part will only have one guideline (one palette, etc)
[02:49] <lassegul> kwwii: I see.
[02:49] <kwwii> ie. the default artwork will only have one palette, concepts, etc.
[02:49] <lassegul> thats why the template is for /Alternate
[02:50] <lassegul> we didnt want to do anything that you should do, thats why we kept from doing any of the important stuff.
[02:50] <kwwii> right, but reading the ContributionSpec it seems to suggest creating such a page for each
[02:50] <kwwii> let me find the quote...
[02:50] <kwwii> == What to do ==
[02:50] <kwwii> Start a new page for each idea. If it is in line with the Official Guidelines, place it under Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Guidelined. If its for alternate selection and/or the community theme, place it under Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate. Name your new page after the concept. So if the alternate concept's name is "Platypus", the new page will be Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Platypus.
[02:51] <lassegul> kwwii: ok. we should edit it so it fits. but its a good material to work with, so we have it ready to implement into the wiki, just have to edit details.
[02:51] <kwwii> yes, definitely
[02:51] <kwwii> it is a great starting point, the part about the default artwork is all I see that needs tweaking
[02:52] <lassegul> kwwii: but we need directions soon, because this is about all we can do without your guiding.
[02:52] <kwwii> lassegul: right, i will start working on this stuff asap
[02:52] <kwwii> (today is a holiday in Germany)
[02:53] <_MMA_> So the /Alternate art will be a "community" theme/package or something?
[02:53] <lassegul> oh, is it the "dont wear a tie, or we'll cut it" day?
[02:53] <kwwii> _MMA_: yes, all of that should go in the community theme package
[02:53] <kwwii> lassegul: lol, no but it is funny you know about that
[02:53] <kwwii> it is German reunification day
[02:53] <_MMA_> Wheres the link to what will be the Ubuntu-Hardy art page.
[02:53] <lassegul> kwwii: i love germany and ive spent much time there.
[02:54] <_MMA_> I cant find it.
[02:54] <lassegul> kwwii: (not much time, but visited family.)
[02:54] <kwwii> _MMA_: I do not think there is a link posted as it is not really finished yet
[02:54] <_MMA_> Ahh...
[02:55] <kwwii> _MMA_: I intend to rework the /Artwork front page very soon as well
[02:55] <kwwii> as usual, as soon as I start on something important like this someone in the company gives me another project to work on
[02:55] <kwwii> lassegul: cool, can you speak german?
[02:56] <_MMA_> I just work about confusion over what will be the "official" and what will be the "community" art. It needs to be a clear separation.
[02:56] <kwwii> _MMA_: right, that needs to be very clearly defined
[02:58] <kwwii> by the way, I created this yesterday as well: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/KennethWimer/Ideas
[03:00] <kwwii> that basically defines the scope of changes for Hardy
[03:00] <_MMA_> The only thing I really sweat is the iconset. It can totally take longer than 6 months to do a set correctly.
[03:00] <_MMA_> This is a worry for Ubuntu Studio.
[03:04] <andreasn> _MAA_: isn't your base set tango-styled though?
[03:04] <andreasn> the one that weddeburn did
[03:04] <lassegul> kwwii: ich bin ein Eicornchen. Du bist ein Faulpelz. Wonderbra!
[03:04] <lassegul> kwwii: thats it.
[03:05] <kwwii> lassegul: nicht schlecht
[03:05] <_MMA_> andreasn: Yes. Our current set is. Thing is, with our new concept, I dont know if they will fit.
[03:05] <_MMA_> brb
[03:05] <andreasn> :/
[03:07] <nothlit> nice, graphical grub, we're gonna use the patched version?
[03:09] <kwwii> I hope that we could make that work
[03:09] <kwwii> but that is a technical issue
[03:10] <kwwii> my son has to collect leaves for biology - taking a walk
[03:15] <kwwii_walk> _MMA_: the idea with the icon theme is to create as many of the more important icons as soon as possible, the theme will evolve over time so we have a longer time to get it all ready
[03:15] <kwwii_walk> and with that, I head out for a walk
[03:16] <_MMA_> kwwii_walk: Oh sure. :) Is the plan to do this over 1 dev cycle though?
[03:16] <lassegul> doesnt sound like it.
[03:19] <nothlit> is this something that will be refreshed over LTS or re-evolved slowly
[03:20] <nothlit> or rather permanent, until there comes a need to start a new project
[03:20] <nothlit> if at all
[03:23] <_MMA_> I'm under the impression it will be as new as it can be for Hardy and continue to evolve from there.
[03:28] <nothlit> i've started up a dedicated sobby server now btw, nothlit.zapto.org
[03:51] <lassegul> nothlit: is this one hosted from the same server yesterdays session was hosted from?
[03:54] <nothlit> nah that was hosted from the gobby app on my laptop
[03:54] <nothlit> i compiled sobby now
[03:56] <lassegul> because it lagged like you were downloading pr0n :P
[03:56] <nothlit> eh...
[03:57] <lassegul> gobby is cool though. they should rename it though: Gedit - multiplayer edition.
[03:57] <nothlit> =/ just a cruddy connection and upstream bandwidth
[03:57] <lassegul> s/though//
[03:58] <nothlit> lassegul: the though works find there :)
[03:58] <nothlit> fine*
[03:59] <lassegul> ^^
[04:13] <nothlit> wow, i didn't think foss was along this far, i thought it was still written gimp natural media specs http://www.levien.com/gimp/wetdream.html
[04:15] <andreasn> krita is pretty good at natural media?
[04:15] <andreasn> right?
[04:17] <nothlit> the watercolour thing is test code, not realtime or usable in 1.6
[04:18] <nothlit> this one is pretty great though http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~mrenold/mypaint/ wonderful brushes and key shortcuts + interface, but no layers
[04:18] <andreasn> I totally need to try krita again
[04:18] <nothlit> the ohter one is http://www.goghproject.com/
[04:19] <nothlit> which is interesting but the the brushes are a little lacking same as gimp
[04:19] <nothlit> that ones more of a streamlined gimp for painting
[04:20] <nothlit> that wet dream application, looks like it was written in '01 :( seems like gimp is....
[04:20] <andreasn> gogh looked nice
[04:21] <andreasn> hm, I better test that, and perhaps draw them some new icons
[04:23] <andreasn> "Gogh is developed nights and weekends by Aleksey Y. Nelipa" :)
[04:30] <DanaG> Argh, will the brown icons in Tangerine likely be fixed (made orange again)?
[04:31] <DanaG> I find the brown "desktop" icons and such clash quite violently with the orange folder icons.
[04:32] <andreasn> hi DanG: isn't they just the same color as the default background?
[04:37] <DanaG> Yeah, but I'd rather have the icons be orange even if the wallpaper is brown.
[04:38] <andreasn> I think lapo added them for consistency's sake
[04:38] <DanaG> Otherwise you get this in your Places menu: orange orange orange orange orange (folders) | BROWN computer, blue "cd/dvd", white drives.
[04:38] <DanaG> Subjectively, I'd rather have the icons be consistent with the other icons, even if they don't match the wallpaper.
[04:38] <andreasn> so you want it to be more monocrome?
[04:39] <DanaG> Plus, since when are tangerines brown?
[04:39] <DanaG> I'd just want the icons to be orange.
[04:39] <DanaG> Like they used to be.
[04:45] <_MMA_> Yep.
[04:45] <DanaG> hmm, that was odd -- I tried to start Virtualbox, and Xorg closed (as if on logout), and then my system hard-locked to the point where even my "toggle LEDs" BIOS hotkey didn't work.
[04:45] <DanaG> The last thing I said was the last thing I saw before now, so did I miss anything?
[04:47] <andreasn> DanaG: it should be possible to grab a old version and put it in ./icons if I'm not mistaken
[04:47] <DanaG> Unfortunately, the old versions also have the really really large Shortcut overlay.
[04:48] <andreasn> well, you could just pick the monitors from the old version
[04:48] <DanaG> Is there a nice list of all icons that were affected by the color change?  If so, I can modify the package myself.
[04:48] <andreasn> possibly in lapo's head :)
[04:49] <andreasn> but, hm, let's see
[04:49] <andreasn> places/computer and places/video-display
[04:50] <DanaG> Oh yeah, I have to go for a while right now.  I'll be back later.
[04:50] <andreasn> status/network-error, status/network-idle, status/network-offline, status/network-receive
[04:51] <andreasn> status/network-transmit-recieive, status/network-transmit
[04:51] <andreasn> places/network-workgroup
[04:51] <andreasn> that's all, I think
 Otherwise you get this in your Places menu: orange orange orange orange orange (folders) | BROWN computer, blue "cd/dvd", white drives.
 Subjectively, I'd rather have the icons be consistent with the other icons, even if they don't match the wallpaper.
[05:18] <troy_s> I would hope these types of complaints could be resolved with a proper palette.  I strongly suspect that a palette would allow for the continual theme of a base tone without rolling into monochromatic hell.
[05:57] <_MMA_> nothlit: I made some updates to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming if you wanna take a look.
[05:57] <_MMA_> Mostly at the bottom.
[06:18] <nothlit`alpha> _MMA_:the palette?
[06:21] <_MMA_> Contact stuff.
[06:23] <_MMA_> I will be trying to work on the palette today though.
[08:07] <_MMA_> kwwii_duck: Will you have a final date for submissions and then work from there? Then from that point just work with some of (3-4) the top ideas until one comes out ahead?
[08:11] <kwwii_stuffed> _MMA_: yes, I think that we need to clearly say when the end of the contribution period is
[08:11] <_MMA_> Should go to: "kwwii_stuffed is now known as kwwii_fat" :D
[08:11] <kwwii> :p
[08:12] <_MMA_> Yeah. I was just looking over my own dates and wondered how you were gonna handle it.
[08:12] <_MMA_> All I have there are the freeze dates but even they might change because of the new process.
[08:13] <kwwii> I had hoped to start working on this stuff tomorrow but another project has come up so I won't get to it until next week sometime
[08:13] <kwwii> _MMA_: yes, I will add the end of the contribution period to the release schedule
[08:14] <_MMA_> kwwii: Well you might be able to direct nothlit and lassegul till then. (next week)
[08:14] <kwwii> _MMA_: right, depending on their schedule
[08:14] <nothlit> kwwii_walk: so should we rephrase it so that each persons submissions goes in the Official section under their own name, or all under the official page once it's setup
[08:15] <kwwii> nothlit: we should reword it so that people do not think that they need to define a palette or concepts to the official page
[08:15] <kwwii> so for the community based stuff each conrtibution will be as you have described it
[08:15] <lassegul> kwwii: do you have time to sketch out a quick map of how the wiki should look?
[08:15] <kwwii> and the official page will be just like one of those, only with subpages for other contributions
[08:16] <kwwii> lassegul: I was just sitting here with a pencil and paper trying to figure that out
[08:16] <_MMA_> Not to toot my horn but I think a structure something like mine where there's a central page that's informational, then links to subpages for submissions, will work for Ubuntu as well.
[08:16] <kwwii> _MMA_: toot away, I really liked the way that you did your page
[08:17] <_MMA_> steal away. ;)
[08:17] <lassegul> kwwii: because it would be cool if nothlit and I got to be able to do things while you are busy.
[08:18] <kwwii> lassegul: I will try and get something together this evening - we can talk about it once it is done, I am sure you will have some ideas that I didn't think of
[08:18] <_MMA_> kwwii: Isnt it already like 9pm for you? :)
[08:19] <lassegul> 20:19 in gmt+2
[08:20] <_MMA_> ahh...
[08:21] <kwwii> not that late yet
[08:21] <_MMA_> kwwii: So lassegul and nothlit will be the "official" WIKI caretakers?
[08:22] <_MMA_> (just want to make is clear for everyone and have it come from the boss) ;)
[08:31] <coastGNU> Is there a chance that I may have images for cd's before gutsy release?
[08:33] <coastGNU> I'm asking because I have the chance to use  cd burn-Robot at Systems IT fair in munich (23. - 26. Oct)
[08:33] <coastGNU> So we will be able to give gutsy cd's to the people visiting the booth before shipit.
[08:35] <kwwii> _MMA_: yes, I think that since they are doing such a good job so far I should crown them official wiki gods
[08:35] <_MMA_> :)
[08:36] <lassegul> Put me where i can be best used. I love working with nothlit. he is funny.
[08:36] <nothlit> lol, i am?
[08:37] <lassegul> yeah. but youre not aware of it ^^
[08:37] <_MMA_> nothlit: Yes. Funny like a clown. You amuse us. ;)
[08:38] <nothlit> *blank stare*
[08:38] <lassegul> like muse?
[08:38] <_MMA_> gah...
[08:38] <lassegul> we are disecting your joke
[08:38] <_MMA_> yeah. Becomes unfunny.
[08:38] <lassegul> yep
[08:42] <_MMA_> Ok. For the kids. Its a "Goodfellas" reference. Ill leave it at that.
[08:42] <lassegul> i still dont get it
[08:42] <lassegul> :D
[08:43] <_MMA_> damn kids
[08:43] <_MMA_> Well..
[08:43] <_MMA_> Could be a cultural thing as well.
[08:43] <_MMA_> :)
[08:44] <_MMA_> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0099685
[08:44] <lassegul> yeah ive seen it.
[08:44] <lassegul> you got any sesame street material?
[08:44] <_MMA_> Naa... Just Muppets. :)
[08:48] <nothlit> lassegul: help me work more on the fake concept template
[08:48] <lassegul> nothlit: ive got a platypus
[08:49] <lassegul> nothlit: sobby?
[08:50] <nothlit> its up
[08:50] <kwwii> sooo...here is what I have so far for the wiki Main Page
[08:50] <kwwii> MAIN PAGE
[08:50] <kwwii> -----------
[08:50] <kwwii> A) General Team Info 1) Goals and Objectives 2) How to Join and Contribute
[08:50] <kwwii> B) Projects 1) Official Artwork 2) Community Artwork (Better Name?)
[08:50] <kwwii> C) General Guidelines 1) No porn or other BadThings(tm) 2) Licensing 3) Whatever else we think of...
[08:51] <kwwii> D) Communication 1) Mailing list 2) IRC 3) art.ubuntu.com 4) Art on Forum???
[08:51] <kwwii> E) Other Teams
[08:51] <lassegul> its nothlit.zepto.org:6522 ?
[08:51] <nothlit> zapto.org
[08:51] <lassegul> there we go.
[08:54] <kwwii> what do you guys think about that structure?
[08:55] <_MMA_> There it looks like a good plan. Its all in how its formatted in the end.
[08:56] <kwwii> yeah, I really wish the wiki looked nicer
[08:56] <nothlit> kwwii: guidelines should be above the projects
[08:56] <nothlit> or people will skip them
[08:56] <kwwii> nothlit: might be a good point
[08:57] <_MMA_> If yo uso subsections you can always have more specific guidelines there. I have them that way right at the top of the pages. Hard to miss.
[08:57] <_MMA_> *If you use...
[08:58] <kwwii> I wish I knew more about wiki formating
[08:58] <kwwii> Basically, all I know is = =, == ==, [08:59] <_MMA_> :) I peek at other pages alot and have been giving tips to nothlit in PM.
[08:59] <nothlit> '' '' italics, ''' ''' bold, ---- for a horizontal rule
[09:01] <nothlit> kwwii: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WikiGuide/Formatting , use the dropdown show raw text to check the code
[09:01] <nothlit> and theres links to the rest in there
[09:02] <_MMA_>  /!\ makes a warning triangle. :)
[09:02] <lassegul> you got to love that.
[09:02] <nothlit> oh, and ## makes wiki comments like code comments
[09:03] <_MMA_> Best thing to do is look over other pages for good formatting ideas.
[09:04] <_MMA_> kwwii: You're not identified so if you did reply I didnt get it.
[09:04] <_MMA_> (PM)
[09:07] <lassegul> what happened to the server nothlit?
[09:10] <nothlit`alpha> lassegul: my connection happened to the server
[09:10] <nothlit`alpha> lassegul: is yours any more stable lol?
[09:10] <nothlit`alpha> what am i saying, you work for an isp... you want to host it?
[09:10] <lassegul> probably
[09:10] <_MMA_> bbl
[09:11] <lassegul> give me two seconds
[09:12] <lassegul> nothlit`alpha: do you have a session stored?
[09:13] <nothlit`alpha> yeah, but its easier for you to recreate it
[09:13] <nothlit`alpha> just reopen the files you have saved
[09:13] <nothlit`alpha> or i can paste in what i have
[09:13] <lassegul> lassegs.ath.cx default port no password.
[09:18] <nothlit> kwwii: actually, this page has pretty much everything https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SyntaxReference
[09:19] <kwwii> sorry, was taking my kid to bed
[09:22] <_MMA_> nothlit: Nice reference page. Hadn't seen that one.
[09:22] <_MMA_> /me goes back to folding laundry.
[09:23] <kwwii> ooooh! laundry! what fun!
[09:24] <_MMA_> ;)
[09:25] <_MMA_> So goes the day of a stay-at-home Dad. ;)
[09:27] <kwwii> that page really does have a lot of good info
[09:32] <nothlit> oh and lol http://doc.ubuntu.com/styleguide/styleguide.html
[09:36] <kwwii> styleguide? we don't need no stinking styleguides!
[09:36] <kwwii> I have plenty of style as it is
[09:37] <_MMA_> Says kwwii as he "pops his collar". ;)
[09:37] <kwwii> :p
[09:47] <nothlit> kwwii: ok, put up the submission guidelines https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/SubmissionGuidelines#preview
[09:48] <nothlit> we're working on the main page now from your outline
[09:51] <kwwii> nothlit: looking good!
[09:51] <nothlit> also, one space @ the beginning of a line is a tab, two is 2, etc
[09:52] <kwwii> we might want to move that page to replace /Artwork/Incoming
[09:53] <nothlit> oh, well we're also working on a contribution guideline, that ones for people who want to start a new page/concept
[09:53] <kwwii> cool
[09:53] <kwwii> really nice to see things moving right along :-)
[09:58] <lassegul> kwwii: what did you think about:
[09:58] <lassegul> 20:51 < kwwii> D) Communication 1) Mailing list 2) IRC 3) art.ubuntu.com 4) Art  on Forum???
[09:58] <lassegul> 4) Art on forum?? We should link to ubuntuforums artwork section?
[09:59] <lassegul> Wouldnt that just make more mess?
[09:59] <_MMA_> lassegul: I wouldnt link to the art section but to a specific thread that you should contain feedback to.
[10:00] <lassegul> _MMA_: I see.
[10:01] <_MMA_> Otherwise you'll have things spread all over. It will most likely happen anyway but it should be noted in the "official" thread that thats the only one that matters.
[10:01] <_MMA_> Though the working could be better than that.
[10:02] <lassegul> should we put in the art.ubuntu.com and the thread now, or keep the out until they are created?
[10:02] <lassegul> *them
[10:02] <kwwii> lassegul: yeah, that is why I had a question mark by it :-9
[10:03] <_MMA_> lassegul: You could do the text for it now but comment it out until things are in place.
[10:03] <kwwii> we can either leave out auc for now, or put it in with a "coming soon" next to it
[10:03] <lassegul> thats cool :D
[10:04] <_MMA_> "When is soon?" 10 times a day in #ubuntustudio.
[10:04] <kwwii> yeah, it will just cause more confusion and annoyance
[10:05] <lassegul> ok hidden it is
[10:05] <lassegul> how do you comment things out on the wiki?
[10:05] <lassegul> :S
[10:05] <_MMA_> ##
[10:05] <lassegul> _MMA_: thanks
[10:05] <_MMA_> I think the 2 are needed.
[10:07] <lassegul> but what is the point of the forum thread?
[10:08] <kwwii> lassegul: just leave it out for now
[10:08] <lassegul> ok.
[10:11] <nothlit> am i allowed to use canadian/british spelling? i don't like writing color and customization
[10:11] <lassegul> nothlit: how do you write customization?
[10:12] <nothlit> customisation
[10:13] <_MMA_> lassegul: For Ubuntu Studio I will use it to pool the users and get feedback. Ill start it off as simple chat then have a poll added later once final submissions are in place. Thats just me.
[10:13] <_MMA_> s/pool/poll
[10:14] <lassegul> ok
[10:15] <kwwii> nothlit: feel free to spell as you wish :-)
[10:15] <kwwii> we can always make fun of you later :p
[10:16] <_MMA_> Yeah. I showed the U-S wiki to my guys and spelling was all they could comment on. Tremendous help. :)
[10:16] <_MMA_> Its still kinds bad because Firefox checks spelling. :)
[10:16] <_MMA_> *kinda
[10:17] <nothlit> Woot! I reworked the technical resources page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation
[10:17] <nothlit> this is what it looked like before https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation?action=recall&rev=25
[10:17] <nothlit> the new links courtesy of andresn
[10:17] <nothlit> andreasn*
[10:20] <kwwii> erm, now I know what we forgot on the main page...a link to resources like logos, etc
[10:20] <_MMA_> nothlit: The links in the themeing section could be cleaner formatted like: [http://library.gnome.org/admin/gdm/stable/thememanual.html.en Themed Greeter] 
[10:21] <_MMA_> Just an idea. :)
[10:21] <kwwii> erm, that is what you just did, probably best to link to that on the main page
[10:25] <SloggerKhan> Missed the meeting but it looks like it went fine in the log.
[10:27] <nothlit> wow... do we need emerald documentation in there or something? =/
[10:28] <kwwii> emerald?
[10:28] <_MMA_> Compiz-fusion now.
[10:28] <_MMA_> (Im guessing)
[10:29] <kwwii> ahhh, now I see
[10:30] <_MMA_> I would say dont take submissions on that as it would be better to just let Compiz use its Metacity capability/plugin/whatever.
[10:30] <kwwii> well, it might be helpfull for anyone wanting to create or tweak some effect although that is more technical
[10:31] <nothlit> emerald or cgwd or whatever ubuntu is using for atlernate compositing window decoration
[10:32] <_MMA_> I guess it all depends on the amount of "bling" you want to allow. I think Compiz itself allows for more effects than Metacity.
[10:33] <_MMA_> Effects on the window decorations that is.
[10:38] <_MMA_> kwwii: What do you feel about themeing the panels? http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/3427/screenshottd5.png I love doing it. We do it in Ubuntu Studio, though it does have its issues. http://img261.imageshack.us/img261/3746/screenshot1hy0.png There's also an issue when looking at the "properties" on a panel launcher.
[10:39] <nothlit> _MMA_: i fixed the page =p
[10:39] <nothlit> darkmatter has discovered the secret to theming everything needed
[10:40] <_MMA_> nothlit: Perrdy
[10:40] <nothlit> _MMA_: ouch @ the ss
[10:40] <kwwii> _MMA_: I like it, I think that we will use a bg pic for the panel in hard
[10:40] <kwwii> y
[10:41] <_MMA_> There will surely be bugs filed based off if what I said above. I wish I could give the GNOME guys a fix for this.
[10:43] <_MMA_> nothlit: darkmatter is indeed a GTK genius if you can keep him around.
[10:44] <nothlit> a bg pic? it has to be scalable or people will run into issues with large fonts or changing the size
[10:44] <nothlit> tiling issues =/
[10:45] <_MMA_> Yes. Over 24px for the panels starts to tile them and under chops off the image.
[10:46] <_MMA_> 24px is just the standard size. 20px image and 20px panel works fine.
[10:47] <_MMA_> But it looks Ohhh... so nice when done right even with the issues. :)
[10:57] <nothlit> kwwii: do we replace https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/PageTemplate with the platypus example or keep it seperate
[11:00] <kwwii> nothlit: I think that we could leave it and create a new template with the platypus example...call it ArtworkProjectTemplate or such
[11:00] <kwwii> what do you think?
[11:01] <nothlit> oh ok sure
[11:01] <nothlit> i know that the two pages serve slightly different purposes
[11:01] <nothlit> i was just wondering how often/needed it was for things other that artwork concepts
[11:02] <nothlit> than*
[11:03] <kwwii> if we find that we do not need the other we can remove it
[11:03] <nothlit> kwwii: do we turn D) Communication 1) Mailing list 2) IRC 3) art.ubuntu.com 4) Art on Forum??? into a replacement of  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/GetInvolved ?
[11:04] <nothlit> there isn't much communication that goes on in launchpad, and not much most people actually do on it in terms of artwork
[11:05] <kwwii> I think that that page is still kinda good to have around, perhaps we should keep it and link to it from the main page with something like (for more information) or such
[11:07] <_MMA_> kwwii: Who's the "go-between" for what comes out of the WIKI and what gets packaged? dholbach?
[11:08] <kwwii> _MMA_: unfortunately there is nobody anymore
[11:08] <_MMA_> :(
[11:08] <kwwii> _MMA_: they tried to get me to do it :p
[11:08] <_MMA_> :)
[11:09] <kwwii> but I will have a long talk with them in boston
[11:09] <_MMA_> Maybe I can lend you one of my guys. :)
[11:09] <kwwii> dholbach was the person
[11:09] <kwwii> hehe, sell him to me :-)
[11:09] <_MMA_> ;)
[11:09] <_MMA_> Reason I asked was management of things on bzr and LP.
[11:10] <kwwii> we really need to find someone to take care of the packaging side of things
[11:10] <kwwii> at this time the answer is: ask someone on #ubuntu-desktop or #ubuntu-devel
[11:11] <_MMA_> Most of the source packaging is pretty strait-forward. The iconset is the real pisser.
[11:11] <_MMA_> Hell no!! That kid needs sleep.
[11:11] <nothlit> oh nm, hes driving atm
[11:13] <_MMA_> kwwii: Im totally sure you could do the bzr and LP changes. You would just need someone to push the changes to the archive.
[11:14] <kwwii> _MMA_: at the time, I am taking care of it...all the new packages for gutsy were made by me
[11:14] <kwwii> and I give them to pitti or someone to include
[11:14] <_MMA_> Oh killer.
[11:15] <kwwii> but it gets really annoying having to handle launchpad, edit python scripts and such, build a source deb and then find someone to convince to include it
[11:15] <kwwii> my job is to do the artwork, not to do the artwork packaging :p
[11:15] <kwwii> I have no problem with doing bzr, that seems easy enough
[11:17] <_MMA_> Believe me. I totally understand. ;)
[11:17] <nothlit> kwwii: whats the Community Artwork mean, just random wallpapers etc uploaded to art.ubuntu.com, or do you mean anything that doesn't follow sabdfls wants for the cycle
[11:17] <kwwii> nothlit: I mean anything that someone starts like blubuntu or my greengrass for example
[11:18] <kwwii> an entire theme based on an idea which is different than the concept and palette for the default artwork
[11:18] <nothlit> oh ok
[11:19] <nothlit> kwwii: do you have a particular license? or do we allow CC, Artistic License, BSD, GPL, etc
[11:19] <nothlit> also is CC-NC workable for ubuntu or not permitted
[11:19] <kwwii> I think that we have to allow all of them but we should suggest CCbySA I think
[11:20] <nothlit> lassegul: bah, now i want cookies. what type are you eating
[11:20] <nothlit> ok sure
[11:20] <_MMA_> Anything that conforms to DFSG most likely.
[11:20] <kwwii> as we are not selling ubuntu I think that CC-NC is okay but should be frowned upon
[11:20] <nothlit> kwwii: does it have to be a free license, or are we also permitted private/commercial works that give ubuntu license
[11:20] <lassegul> nothlit: maryland choc chips and hazelnuts and a glass of fresh cold norwegian milk.
[11:20] <kwwii> one thing that is very important is that people state which license they are going to use
[11:21] <kwwii> nothlit: I think that to avoid problems it has to be a free license of some sort
[11:22] <_MMA_> DFSG - http://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines
[11:23] <nothlit> american, south african, or unported
[11:25] <_MMA_> Yay! My GIMP issue is gonna get fixed. :) Bug 131564
[11:25] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 131564 in gimp "crashes when using the small theme" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/131564
[11:25] <nothlit> thats not a medium bug, thats critical.
[11:26] <_MMA_> To us sure. :)
[11:27] <_MMA_> I dont know if they're gonna fix the system sounds issue either. Which I feel is more important.
[11:28] <nothlit> gimp is unusable without the small theme to all but seniors, i would say myopics, but i'm one and have no trouble
[11:29] <kwwii> small theme?
[11:29] <nothlit> makes the text and the icons smaller for more usable screen estate
[11:29] <nothlit> its just a premade custom gtkrc
[11:30] <kwwii> lol, I never saw that until now
[11:30] <_MMA_> :)
[11:30] <kwwii> and my laptop only has a 12" monitor
[11:30] <nothlit> same :D
[11:30] <darkmatter> nothlit : yes, but theming everything needed makes for one BIG theme :P
[11:31] <nothlit> darkmatter: ubuntu needs completeness :D
[11:31] <darkmatter> lol. yes. and less bugs ;)
[11:31] <nothlit> darkmatter: and wonderful natural buttons like glory!
[11:31] <darkmatter> :)
[11:35] <kwwii> it is a feature, not a bug - http://sinecera.de/feature_not_bug.jpg
[11:36] <nothlit> You don't have permission to access /feature_not_bug.jpg on this server.
[11:36] <nothlit> oh... LOL
[11:37] <lassegul> lol
[11:38] <kwwii> made a tea, now it is time for bed (early for a change)
[11:39] <_MMA_> Yay! Sleep!
[11:40] <kwwii> I get the feeling that tomorrow is going to be another long day
[11:40] <kwwii> night all
[11:42] <_MMA_> Yeah. A "long day" of dog-walking and duck-eating. :)
[11:42] <_MMA_> Night sir.
[11:42] <lassegul> good night.
[11:44] <nothlit> to the lurking not yet asleep k wii, this is what we have so far https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/hardy/text/MainPage.txt
[11:44] <nothlit> and good night =p
[11:44] <nothlit> _MMA_: i thought it was child walking for biology leaf collection
[11:45] <_MMA_> Oh. :) I missed that.
[11:45] <kwwii_sleep> nothlit: looks pretty good so far ;-)
[11:45] <kwwii_sleep> child, dog - what is the difference?
[11:45] <kwwii_sleep> :p
[11:45] <_MMA_> lol
[11:46] <kwwii_sleep> they are both loud, eat a lot, make a big mess, can make you happy at times, sad at times, annoyed at times
[11:46] <nothlit> _MMA_: look, i made sure to include UbuntuStudio artwork :D =p
[11:46] <kwwii_sleep> oh wait, the one can speak
[11:47] <kwwii_sleep> with that, I bid you adue
[11:47] <_MMA_> :D
[11:49] <nothlit> _MMA_: Currently we are attempting to collect all art related people under the ubuntu-art team on Launchpad.  This has been quite successful thus far, and therefore one should consider the ubuntu-art team as a good starting point for work.
[11:49] <nothlit> does that apply to uS?
[11:50] <_MMA_> Sure.
[11:50] <_MMA_> Its the reason Im in here now.
[11:51] <SloggerKhan> eventually a child can help support you in your old age... at least if you raise them well.
[11:51] <_MMA_> Id also like to see however handles Xubuntu's stuff in here.
[11:52] <lassegul> im turning in. good night all.
[11:52] <_MMA_> Night sir.
[12:02] <nothlit> last wiki formatting resource https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpOnFormatting
[12:03] <nothlit> _MMA_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio looks soo snazzy with all the tables
[12:07] <_MMA_> ;)