[05:19] <troy_s> well now that the wonderful fun of Gutsy's turmoil has subsided, our numbers return to normal.
[08:56] <lassegul> Good morning everybody!
[08:58] <kwwii> not so sure if it is good
[08:58] <lassegul> why not?
[08:58] <kwwii> my version upgrade did not go so well last night
[08:58] <kwwii> still trying to figure things out
[08:58] <lassegul> :S
[08:58] <kwwii> so no email in the meantime
[08:58] <lassegul> No e-mail?
[09:01] <kwwii> nope
[09:02] <kwwii> doesn't work anymore
[09:02] <kwwii> going to go and try to figure something out...bbl
[10:47] <artnay> openSUSE 10.3 - http://news.opensuse.org/?p=400 at least the artwork is decent x)
[01:29] <lassegul> lol #ubuntu is chaos. <user1> How do i remove the ubuntu viruz?  <user2> Why doesnt the Office07 installer work?
[01:40] <kwwii> good morning mr mma
[01:41] <_MMA_> Yo. :)
[01:41] <_MMA_> 4.5hrs sleep. Yay!
[01:41] <lassegul> kwwii: im sorry I woke you last night btw.
[01:41] <lassegul> hi _MMA_
[01:42] <_MMA_> ello.
[01:59] <_MMA_> lassegul: Ive made a couple of updates you might wanna steal. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming
[02:01] <kwwii> lassegul: it is all your fault :p
[02:02] <lassegul> _MMA_: we will steal this from you. Be prepared
[02:03] <_MMA_> ;)
[02:03] <lassegul> kwwii: i figured you would have set away if you was away
[02:04] <lassegul> kwwii: nothlit was going on on how stealthy he was on google, and that noone knew his name etc.
[02:05] <lassegul> kwwii: and I was planning to freak him out with asking you, since you know because of the uds application.
[02:07] <kwwii> :p
[02:07] <nothlit> lol, being ungoogleable is a good thing
[02:07] <kwwii> his real name is Herman
[02:07] <kwwii> just kidding
[02:08] <nothlit> oh nos! you found me out
[02:08] <nothlit> you'd prolly find out at uds anyways lasse, rofl
[02:09] <lassegul> so, are we still sleeping on the hotel lawn, or have canonical found a solution?
[02:09] <_MMA_> nothlit: Are you going?
[02:11] <nothlit> _MMA_: if canonical figures out what do with not having enough hotel rooms
[02:12] <_MMA_> Oh yeah. I did hear about that.
[02:13] <lassegul> but there wont be a problem cause kwwii and nothlit will be sharing beds.
[02:13] <lassegul> =P
[02:14] <_MMA_> :)
[02:22] <nothlit> *ahem*, as nice as kwwii is i would prefer not to have a bedfellow
[02:32] <_MMA_> nothlit: Oh come on? You can bed with me. :) (as MMA circles his bellybutton with his finger.)
[02:33] <lassegul> :-(
[02:33] <nothlit> you two are weirdos =p
[04:12] <LDS_Trooper> What direction/look or feel is under discussion for "Hardy Heron" ??
[04:12] <andreasn> sexy chicks and hot cars! ;)
[04:12] <LDS_Trooper> lol
[04:13] <nothlit> a lot of young males would end up using it and nobody else
[04:14] <andreasn> isn't that already like 95% of our users?
[04:14] <andreasn> :)
[04:16] <LDS_Trooper> OK so any serious thought on a direction for the design?
[04:16] <LDS_Trooper> =)
[04:21] <lassegul> LDS_Trooper: Its not definite yet, but there is going to be something with black and orange.
[04:21] <LDS_Trooper> sweet colors...
[04:21] <LDS_Trooper> Easy to work with
[04:21] <lassegul> LDS_Trooper: but it may also include other colours.
[04:22] <LDS_Trooper> ok
[04:22] <LDS_Trooper> off topic question.. anyone here use Ubuntu Linux?
[04:22] <LDS_Trooper> lol
[04:22] <lassegul> blubuntu lunix?
[04:22] <nothlit> i honestly don't
[04:23] <LDS_Trooper> seriously.. I am interested in purchasing a hand held but I am not sure which is most compatible with Ubuntu
[04:23] <nothlit> hand held?
[04:23] <lassegul> PDA thingy?
[04:23] <LDS_Trooper> So far all of the Palm Pilot stuff says they need win or mac
[04:24] <LDS_Trooper> yep PDA
[04:24] <lassegul> I think palm has pretty good linux support.
[04:24] <LDS_Trooper> I think I will call them and ask
[04:24] <LDS_Trooper> brb
[04:24] <lassegul> LDS_Trooper: i dont think youll get an asnwer that way
[04:25] <lassegul> LDS_Trooper: they probably wouldnt know what you were talking about.
[04:25] <LDS_Trooper> No?
[04:26] <lassegul> LDS_Trooper: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=palm+ubuntu&spell=1
[04:26] <lassegul> :)
[04:41] <LDS_Trooper> Need to run for a meeting. Thanks for all the help! When will the color palette be decided on?
[04:43] <LDS_Trooper> Ok sorry, need to run.
[04:59] <nothlit> for anyone who doesn't know this is the latest in the art direction https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KennethWimer/Ideas
[05:15] <troy_s> * andreasn wonders what would happen if a distro actually took that direction -- It would certainly be successful for an alternate theme assuming you could keep it in the realm of hot rod car magazines and not into smut.  Probably a reasonable sized audience too (albeit in that 16-21 male core).
[05:15] <troy_s> lol.
[05:16] <andreasn> hm, bundling it with hot rod magazines sounds like a great idea! Yay! I'm going to be rich! ;)
[05:17] <troy_s> lol
[05:18] <troy_s> andreasn: There most certainly is a cool overarching look and feel to a 1960s hot rod schema.  You might snag a few extremely satisfied 30plus somethings in a nostalgia effort.
[05:18] <andreasn> heh, yeah
[05:19] <andreasn> as long as he could play freecell, and check out bikes on the net
[05:19] <nothlit> btw, anyone looking for inspiration, 1000 self portraits in 1000 days http://www.conceptart.org/artist/andrew-jones/images/1000_sp/1000_sp_1500px_web.jpg -- fullsizes http://www.conceptart.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9&page=13&pp=75&sort=dateline&order=desc&daysprune=-1
[05:21] <troy_s> andreasn: Your father and a sizable percentage of other folks -- depending on how gender neutral you could pull it.
[05:21] <_MMA_> Hmm... car idea is neat. Maybe I can draw something from this pic I took. http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2048/dscf3084xr1.jpg
[05:22] <troy_s> That's where it is at.  Although two toned baby!
[05:22] <troy_s> You can't do a nostalgic automobile theme without hitting on that two tone.
[05:22] <_MMA_> I have more of that one. It was actually a orange primer.
[05:23] <troy_s> _MMA_: That flat look is pretty cool too.  Duster's briefly reused it.  In "A Series of Unfortunate Events" Carrey's retro-modern car was a rather interesting flat tone.
[05:26] <_MMA_> Its a common trend now. Its gone so far now as to actually make cars look rusted, Primer showing through faded paint look and such. But they still run like a champ. Ive seen some cool ones.
[05:27] <troy_s> kwwii: " * The Usplash does not have resolutions for all monitor sizes" -- usplash is _still_ broken with regards to widescreen monitor detection.  Maybe you can give that one a kick in the a*s and see if anyone actually cares?
[05:27] <_MMA_> Yes.+1 on that.
[05:28] <troy_s> kwwii: As in the ever long standing (longer than the bug too) bug 64147
[05:28] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 64147 in usplash "ubuntu splash logo stretched on non-4:3/16:9 displays" [Medium,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/64147
[05:29] <troy_s> Although it seems that some of the people just don't quite get it -- usplash is _broken_.  tonic-pushcart has much more information than I on it.
[05:51] <kwwii> troy_s: yeah, I was talking to others at canonical about either getting someone to work on the usplash or replacing it
[05:52] <_MMA_> Isnt Usplash Seveas's thing?
[05:52] <Seveas> it is
[05:52] <Seveas> partially
[05:53] <_MMA_> Hi sir.
[05:53] <kwwii> hi Seveas
[05:55] <Seveas> usplash doesn't need to be replaced, it needs to be fixed
[05:55] <Seveas> the resolution thing is only a minor issue
[05:56] <Seveas> the more difficult problems are proper input, cancellable fsck and whatnot
[05:57] <Seveas> I've been working on input and theming, will land early in hardy
[05:57] <_MMA_> Seveas: And who can we bribe to give it some love for Hardy? :)
[05:57] <_MMA_> :)
[05:57] <Seveas> I'll be tackling better resolution support later, probably for hardy
[05:58] <_MMA_> Nice
[05:58] <troy_s> Seveas: Awsome to hear.
[05:58] <troy_s> Seveas: Is the resolution issue fixable?
[05:59] <Seveas> yes
[06:00] <Seveas> you can help me by making background images for the resolutions you want for hardy
[06:01] <Seveas> I'll be testing with 800x600 and 1280x800
[06:01] <Seveas> I'll probably drop 1024x768
[06:01] <Seveas> unless I find an efficient way to support many resolutions
[06:02] <troy_s> Seveas: This is done. The theme has widescreen development versions, but they never are selected.
[06:02] <troy_s> Seveas: It stems from some lower level usplash (or svga lib?) issue?
[06:03] <_MMA_> Seveas: Well I design wallpapers up to 2560x1600. Thats covers 30" 16:10 LCDs. I would guess (but hope not) that too high for what you're thinking for Usplash.
[06:03] <troy_s> _MMA_: Actually, I don't think there are limits.
[06:03] <troy_s> _MMA_: Aside from bloating the resultant theme library that you plop onto the system.
[06:03] <Seveas> troy_s, usplash issue probably
[06:03] <troy_s> _MMA_: The idea being that usplash provides xx number of themes, and it chooses the closest.
[06:04] <troy_s> Seveas: It is well known apparently -- our resident usplash expert tonic knew about it from ages ago.
[06:04] <Seveas> troy_s, there are limits
[06:04] <Seveas> usplash works with svga modes
[06:04] <troy_s> Seveas: I _think_ the general accepted bug trail is 64147
[06:04] <Seveas> by scaling images it emulates widescreen
[06:04] <troy_s> Seveas: yeah, but when a widescreen is provided, it is _never_ selected.
[06:05] <troy_s> Seveas: Which I believe is the underlying problem.
[06:05] <troy_s> Seveas: In fact, tonic and myself as well as a about 10 testers were unable to _ever_ get a widescreen usplash selected by the lib.
[06:05] <Seveas> troy_s, that's because pc widescreen is closer to 4:3 than 16:9
[06:05] <Seveas> and it only looks at those currently
[06:05] <troy_s> ???
[06:05] <_MMA_> troy_s: Well being able to set the background color to something other than black would help. ie: you could create an image smaller than 2560x1600 but still have the scale look right.
[06:05] <troy_s> _MMA_: You can.
[06:06] <troy_s> _MMA_: We have white for example.
[06:06] <troy_s> Seveas: Explain further?
[06:06] <Seveas> anyway, gotta go now (birthday party)
[06:06] <troy_s> Seveas: Ok...
[06:06] <troy_s> Seveas: If you find time, could you explain it to me further later?
[06:06] <_MMA_> troy_s: Really? I saw the shots but didnt know you set the background.
[06:06] <troy_s> Seveas: As it is we provide a 16x9 but it never selects it -- perhaps it is a resolution thing?
[06:06] <troy_s> _MMA_: of Usplash?
[06:07] <_MMA_> 16:10 is more common.
[06:07] <troy_s> _MMA_: The background is white.
[06:07] <_MMA_> Yeah. :)
[06:07] <troy_s> _MMA_: Bah -- 1680x1050 is a standard
[06:07] <troy_s> Anyways, even close would be great.
[06:07] <troy_s> Have it choose _any_ widescreen instead of never would be a win.
[06:08] <troy_s> _MMA_: Have you seen it in action yet?
[06:08] <_MMA_> 1680x1050=16:10
[06:08] <_MMA_> troy_s: No. I havnt seen it run yet.
[06:08] <_MMA_> Ive been waiting to test disks for Joe.
[06:09] <troy_s> _MMA_: Point is that 16x9 should probably flip in.  And it doesn't.
[06:09] <_MMA_> Sure.
[06:10] <_MMA_> I just wonder if "Seveas: troy_s, that's because pc widescreen is closer to 4:3 than 16:9" rules out people with the more common 16:10 screens. Which I would guess what your testers have.
[06:10] <_MMA_> Im just spit-ballin'.
[06:11] <_MMA_> Dont know how hard-n-fast the Usplash rules are.
[06:15] <troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah, but I wouldn't understand that.  I would think that it would / SHOULD use an aspect ratio
[06:16] <troy_s> as in over say, 1.5 it goes wide
[06:16] <troy_s> and under it goes standard
[06:16] <_MMA_> Sure.
[06:16] <_MMA_> I guess we'll just have to talk more to Seveas.
[06:17] <troy_s> _MMA_: Yes.  Although the ratio should probably be 1/x to avoid ugly repeaters.
[06:18] <troy_s> so probably anything under say, .65 would be widescreen.
[06:18] <troy_s> I wonder what piece of code that is in...
[06:18] <troy_s> I suppose we should look at it.
[06:43] <nothlit> krita 2 devel looks exciting http://thedarkmaster.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/mixer_perfect.png
[09:19] <lassegul> kwwii: do you mind checking something for us?
[09:19] <lassegul> us being nothlit and me
[09:20] <kwwii> re
[09:20] <kwwii> sure, url?
[09:20] <nothlit> kwwii: https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/hardy/text/MainPage.txt
[09:21] <nothlit> we think its ready to upload, we want your a ok
[09:22] <kwwii> wow, that looks pretty good to me
[09:23] <lassegul> nothlit is responsible, he has wiki skills.
[09:23] <lassegul> :P
[09:23] <kwwii> troy_s: can you check that and give me your opinion?
[09:23] <nothlit> lol, lassegul typed a good portion of it too
[09:23] <nothlit> hes making the platypus artwork
[09:23] <kwwii> nahhh, he is a faulpelz :p
[09:23] <lassegul> :)
[09:24] <nothlit> the guidelines are a bit long, we can put them into a seperate page, but its useful to force people to pass by them each time too
[09:24] <troy_s> Woot... almot finished Platypus!
[09:24] <troy_s> almost even.
[09:24] <kwwii> yeah, I think it is a good idea to keep them on the main page
[09:24] <lassegul> nothlit: you are really fast
[09:24] <nothlit> lassegul: what did i do now
[09:24] <lassegul> nothlit: in general
[09:25] <nothlit> lassegul: lol, you said that already =p
[09:25] <nothlit> i've just used the wiki before
[09:25] <troy_s> Actually, I was playing around with heron colours and ended up revisiting solar with something more akin to where I would have liked to have taken it if we weren't trapped in monochromatic hell.
[09:25] <kwwii> if nobody here has any improvements I think it is safe to go live with that
[09:25] <troy_s> put it up and see what it ends up like
[09:25] <troy_s> that's about all you can do.
[09:25] <kwwii> right
[09:25] <kwwii> lassegul, nothlit: go for it
[09:25] <troy_s> bear in mind that the average seconds per page is about 8 seconds iirc.  I guess that means make it scannable in 8 seconds.
[09:26] <troy_s> (more or less)
[09:26] <lassegul> heres some artwork for the upcoming platypus concept. http://lassegs.ath.cx/stuff/platypusafraidthumb.png
[09:26] <nothlit> its up
[09:26] <troy_s> LOL
[09:26] <troy_s> lassegul: I see spring up on imagebin.
[09:26] <troy_s> lol
[09:26] <troy_s> funny...
[09:27] <lassegul> troy_s: spring or platypus
[09:27] <troy_s> Why is it funny?  http://imagebin.ca/view/Uu06i0N4.html
[09:27] <kwwii> lol
[09:27] <troy_s> Working with those black and brown -> orange hues.
[09:27] <nothlit> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork
[09:27] <lassegul> troy_s: i was showing nothlit how i made this a month ago, and the only version I actually liked a little, before I got lost.
[09:27] <kwwii> troy_s: wow, good start
[09:27] <troy_s> lol
[09:27] <troy_s> very funny...
[09:28] <lassegul> thats smooth.
[09:28] <troy_s> it just cracked me up as I was perusing on over I went 'hey...'
[09:28] <troy_s> lol
[09:28] <troy_s> kwwii: It isn't anything more than an attempt to get the tonal ranges somewhere in a ballpark without using generic bland square / circle gradients.
[09:29] <troy_s> lassegul: Those spline curves are more polished than the last time I saw it.
[09:30] <kwwii> troy_s: I like the colors you used, there is a bit of blue in the "planet" or?
[09:30] <lassegul> troy_s: no, they just look better with black
[09:30] <troy_s> kwwii: A good dose of blue really.
[09:30] <nothlit> lol, you're far more restrained than i https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/hardy/thumbnails/sketch5.png https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/hardy/thumbnails/fire2.png
[09:30] <troy_s> lassegul: Maybe I am misremembering things.
[09:30] <troy_s> nothlit: I am just factoring in the uber-conservativeness with a personal belief that the 'looming' feel is better sparse.
[09:31] <troy_s> nacht
[09:31] <lassegul> see you.
[09:31] <nothlit> cyas
[09:32] <nothlit> so noone thinks the new page is a bit too long?
[09:33] <thorwil> i think the length is ok
[09:34] <lassegul> nothlit: im afraid you might be right.
[09:34] <troy_s> nothlit: I would always vote for too long.
[09:34] <troy_s> nothlit: Remember - you have 8 seconds.
[09:35] <troy_s> (or fit the whole thing on a page)
[09:35] <lassegul> what should we cut out?
[09:36] <lassegul> or outsource?
[09:36] <nothlit> yeah, i'll squeeze it down later
[09:36] <troy_s> lassegul: Pretty simple.  Use Einstein's rule -- make things as simple as they must be, but no simpler.
[09:36] <troy_s> lassegul: Distill it down to only exactly what it needs to say.
[09:36] <lassegul> troy_s: thats simple
[09:36] <troy_s> nothing more.
[09:37] <troy_s> And hopefully you can make it scannable -- ToC and headings would probably help that out.
[09:38] <thorwil> toc on the right is a bit odd. one will have started reading before seeing that. but that's a wiki stylesheet thing, i guess?
[09:39] <troy_s> Seems that several of those should be individual pages.
[09:39] <troy_s> thorwil: ToC on the right is based on the generic pages from the wiki that are more well laid out.
[09:39] <troy_s> thorwil: It is consistent with the more well used pages. https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats for example.
[09:40] <lassegul> i think also subpages should be more accesable but theres nothing we can do about that either.
[09:40] <troy_s> lassegul: I would probably agree -- move those to the floater with the ToC.
[09:40] <troy_s> The bottom is rather useless.
[09:40] <lassegul> troy_s: but that doesnt fit in with other wiki pages.
[09:41] <thorwil> troy_s: feels much better on that site. maybe just because the first paragraph follows directly without a 2nd level headline
[09:41] <troy_s> lassegul: Yep.  I suppose it is a minor enough detail that it could be relocated somewhere more visible.
[09:42] <lassegul> that would make it much more friendly
[09:42] <troy_s> thorwil: Sure.
[09:42] <thorwil> how about dropping the "Ubuntu Artwork" headline?
[09:43] <troy_s> thorwil: It is redundant, but again, I think that is a first draft.  I would suggest there are several elements that need to be dropped or relocated to 2ndary pages.
[09:43] <thorwil> troy_s: sure :)
[09:49] <nothlit> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork edit
[09:49] <nothlit> i don't know what one page is on 1024x768
[09:50] <thorwil> it's no business/ad site but a wiki. so i wouldn't get worked up about the fold ;)
[09:51] <lassegul> now its getting somewhere.
[09:52] <thorwil> links on a single line are harder to scan than as vertical lists, though
[09:54] <thorwil> The first paragraph mentions the Artwork Team out of nothing, while the section heading claims it's General Information
[09:54] <thorwil> ^ being picky there
[09:56] <nothlit> thorwil: see if the links are acceptable to you now
[09:57] <thorwil> nothlit: that helps :)
[09:58] <troy_s> logo and pill etc seem out of place
[09:58] <_MMA_> nothlit: "If your artwork has other peoples art in it" might sound better as: "If your submission contains another's work" or "If your submission contains work that is not your own".
[09:59] <troy_s> nothlit: If you want a link to official, label it as such.
[10:00] <lassegul> _MMA_: youre right. my bad.
[10:00] <_MMA_> np. :)
[10:01] <thorwil> nite!
[10:02] <nothlit> the official heading was taking up space lol =/
[10:04] <troy_s> nothlit: Yeah but if it needs to be on the first page, then so be it.  Official = all official related artwork located at [linktoofficial] 
[10:06] <nothlit> i've just placed it on the bottom between two horizontal rules
[10:18] <lapo> hi
[10:18] <lapo> ciao _MMA_
[10:18] <lapo> _MMA_: is the beta in an usable state now?
[10:21] <_MMA_> Well we had to do change how tasksel worked. So after testing the next build I can let you know.
[10:22] <lapo> ok, thanks
[10:30] <nothlit> wow, this has nice linework http://www.wetcanvas.com/forums/showthread.php?t=448773
[10:36] <_MMA_> troy_s: I'm unsure of this but its what I have so far. http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/9690/palettetg6.png
[10:37] <troy_s> _MMA_: How does it look panelling across the back of some photocopied band members etc?  I would still experiment with a desat and a darken on the base blue
[10:38] <troy_s> _MMA_: Just to see if it gets more 'printlike'
[10:38] <troy_s> _MMA_: That green could be pretty good with that blue too.
[10:38] <_MMA_> Yeah. Agreed.
[10:38] <_MMA_> Ill grab some photos and throw the color over them to see how it goes.
[10:39] <_MMA_> Some "photocopied" photos.
[10:39] <troy_s> _MMA_: Try something in the 3c8cbd zone for a desat
[10:39] <troy_s> yep.
[10:39] <troy_s> _MMA_: Try grabbing a high contrast photo of your choosing (a face or someone yelling or what have you)
[10:40] <troy_s> _MMA_: And if it is of high contrast -- do a trace and strip out the bg -- a single tone trace.
[10:40] <troy_s> _MMA_: Then lay panels of colours in form behind it...
[10:40] <_MMA_> Sure. Like I did the lick of the Marshall cabinet.
[10:40] <troy_s> _MMA_: It will give you a better feeling for the colours in a contextual environment -- it is way impossible to stare at colours outside of their context.
[10:40] <troy_s> yep
[10:41] <troy_s> _MMA_: Here... I have a high contrast shot off the video that might work... punkish looking.
[10:48] <troy_s> _MMA_: Catch this... there are many layers there to fart with.
[10:49] <_MMA_> ok.
[10:49] <nothlit> layers? is it an adobe premier/aftereffects file or something?
[10:49] <_MMA_> Or .svg. ;)
[10:50] <troy_s> nothlit: Uh no.
[10:50] <_MMA_> lol
[10:50] <troy_s> Catch that.
[10:50] <nothlit> oh, you potraced a still?
[10:50] <troy_s> All grey and such... just try swatching some stuffs in there.
[10:50] <_MMA_> Man. Its been so long since I was really active in all this. Makes me feel good. After UDS I hope to really crank out some work.
[10:50] <troy_s> nothlit: Yes a couple.
[10:50] <troy_s> from greenscreen (i hate shooting greenscreen)
[10:51] <_MMA_> troy_s: Who is that?
[10:51] <troy_s> _MMA_: Have you heard of an industrial band called Frontline Assembly?
[10:51] <_MMA_> Oh hell yea!
[10:51] <troy_s> _MMA_: That is the lead singer of a fork project from a couple of the members.
[10:52] <troy_s> _MMA_: Two of the members of Frontline and one member of Black Halos
[10:52] <andreasn> what about Delerium then?
[10:52] <troy_s> _MMA_: Forked off to do some industrial / punk type stuff but with a more mainstream twist.  Rather close to Nine Inch Nails meets Korn (somewhere in that zone).
[10:52] <troy_s> Delerium?
[10:53] <andreasn> yeah, those were also connected to FLA in some way I think
[10:53] <troy_s> Ahh yes.
[10:53] <troy_s> Yes... something like that.
[10:53] <troy_s> It is weird how many people know of Frontline Assembly... very strange.
[10:53] <troy_s> I always thought they were so far underground that they might as well be dead... but apparently that isn't the case.
[10:54] <troy_s> There are murmurs of a potential video project for them on the horizon... but we shall see what happens.
[10:54] <_MMA_> :)
[10:55] <_MMA_> Man. This style of mine is gonna make the iconset damn hard to do. Im gonna lose wedderburn over this.
[10:55] <troy_s> _MMA_: Anyways, it is just handy junk to play with your palette tests.  Try sticking strips in there.
[10:55] <troy_s> _MMA_: Lol.
[10:55] <_MMA_> Its gonna end up like Huw.
[10:55] <troy_s> _MMA_: If you can keep to that very borderline kodalith image feeling with a nice splash of a couple compliments -- I think it will end up damn distinct.
[10:55] <_MMA_> He didnt get it either.
[10:56] <troy_s> _MMA_: Bah.  Anyone with half a lobe should have more than enough information to start experimenting with.
[10:56] <andreasn> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delerium
[10:56] <troy_s> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Inkel is one of the band members.
[10:56] <_MMA_> troy_s: I just fear "distinct" will equal "offputting" to most.
[10:57] <andreasn> _MMA_ is the icon set worth styling then, perhaps better to focus on other stuff and threat the icons as just interfaces?
[10:57] <troy_s> _MMA_: Everything new is offputting.  If you intend to attract creative folks, making a clearly creative decision shouldn't hurt.
[10:57] <_MMA_> Sure.
[10:57] <troy_s> _MMA_: In the end, you need to front money if you are going to try and gamble.
[10:58] <troy_s> nothing ventured, nothing gained.
[10:58] <troy_s> it depends too -- if it ends up a half-assing to try and make it one part DIY and one part 'acceptable to the guys who use Foresight linux' then it will probably be a gah.
[10:58] <_MMA_> andreasn: In that case then, I'll need to find a set to use and I honestly dont know of one off-hand that fits.
[10:58] <troy_s> _MMA_: Perhaps only worry about a core set -- like 10?
[10:59] <troy_s> _MMA_: Hell... the visibility of the default folder is enough to translate.
[10:59] <lapo> _MMA_: doing a basic icon set which inherits gnome icon theme should be easy anough
[10:59] <_MMA_> troy_s: LOL. No. Thats not gonna happen. ;) Though I know its creator personally. He likes our new idea but is staying with the gloss. Even asked for the svg on our Feisty Gnome-splash.
[11:00] <troy_s> _MMA_: Shocker.  Diversity is good.  It is like looking out on a road and everyone wanting to drive the same model and colour of car.  Silly foolishness from our darkages.
[11:00] <lapo> _MMA_: just the folder (and derived) + some other bits, like navigation arrows and some hw devices
[11:00] <troy_s> +1 to lapo on that one.
[11:00] <_MMA_> Yeah. A "core" set isnt an issue. I think any set I could inherit would also stand out too much.
[11:01] <troy_s> _MMA_: It would be quite an interesting exploration of icon land... lol.  I don't even know where one would start by throwing a dart...
[11:01] <_MMA_> Totally.
[11:01] <troy_s> _MMA_: I suppose something like a black and a grey form on top of a wedge of colour or something akin to that...
[11:02] <troy_s> _MMA_: Iconfactory often has some great starting points.
[11:02] <troy_s> WOW speaking of which...
[11:02] <lapo> troy_s: fsck, I always need a dictionary near me to read you! :-)
[11:02] <troy_s> Check out their current look.
[11:02] <_MMA_> Yeah. I have a couple of place Im gonna look. Thats one.
[11:02] <troy_s> lapo: Language.  Lol.  I'm sorry -- I am one of those ignorant bloody 'guys who can only speak English'
[11:03] <lapo> troy_s: A bloody difficult english even :-)
[11:03] <troy_s> _MMA_: Something (minus the obvious 1990 gem crap) http://iconfactory.com/freeware/preview/iph3
[11:03] <troy_s> would suffice for a shape / form?
[11:04] <andreasn> heh, great halloween design
[11:04] <troy_s> woot -- the litho set rocks... and now there is a halloween pack... http://iconfactory.com/freeware/preview/liha
[11:04] <troy_s> in fact _MMA_ litho would be a great starting point too.
[11:05] <lapo> ugh, unusable
[11:06] <troy_s> http://iconfactory.com/freeware/preview/lith
[11:06] <lapo> good luck building a full set based on that design tho
[11:06] <troy_s> lapo: shup
[11:06] <troy_s> lapo: Would seem more important to have something that matches the overall aesthetic of a design for a few core than to worry about a full set.
[11:06] <_MMA_> God I wish I could hire Mattahan. http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/46201-1.jpg
[11:06] <nothlit`alpha> wtheck, that iphonica was released this august
[11:06] <troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah crud is amazing stuff.
[11:07] <lapo> troy_s: worry about the full set naturally
[11:07] <troy_s> _MMA_: I chatted with him... he is actually open to doing some work too.
[11:07] <lapo> troy_s: since just a bunch of icons in way and all the rest as a mishmesh is just bad
[11:07] <lapo> and not even graphically appealing
[11:07] <_MMA_> Wow. Litho is nice.
[11:07] <troy_s> lapo: If a full set is bad too... what is the point of the exercise?
[11:07] <troy_s> :)
[11:07] <troy_s> _MMA_: Yeah and there are a few extras...
[11:08] <lapo> you don't stare at the an emty desktop, but you tend to use stuff like....uhm applications
[11:08] <troy_s> http://iconfactory.com/freeware/preview/lit1
[11:08] <troy_s> http://iconfactory.com/freeware/preview/lit2
[11:08] <troy_s> http://iconfactory.com/freeware/preview/lit3
[11:08] <troy_s> etc
[11:08] <troy_s> _MMA_: I chatted with that guy and he says he was absolutely blown away by how successful his lit set was.  I guess that's why he has created so many more.
[11:10] <troy_s> _MMA_: I believe http://onebuttonmouse.com/ is his homepage.
[11:10] <_MMA_> Se my pickle also is, creating a new set of icons every six months is a PITA. I gotta see if we can keep a look over 2 releases or so.
[11:10] <_MMA_> *See
[11:10] <troy_s> http://onebuttonmouse.com/icons/lithosystem/
[11:11] <troy_s> _MMA_: Absolutely... and that's even with a good rut of folks to crank out work.
[11:11] <_MMA_> troy_s: Im gonna email him.
[11:12] <troy_s> _MMA_: Maybe get lith under a license and snag the svg exports.
[11:12] <troy_s> ;)
[11:13] <troy_s> lol
[11:13] <_MMA_> Yep. Im hoping the concept we have will snag him.
[11:13] <troy_s> _MMA_: He is a damn busy guy -- so you won't get any work out of him.  But you might be able to negotiate some sort of license.  Who knows... you wouldn't know unless you ask.
 you don't stare at the an emty desktop, but you tend to use stuff like....uhm applications
[11:14] <troy_s> Still don't get it.
[11:14] <_MMA_> And I certainly have no problems asking people. ;)
[11:14] <lapo> troy_s: I mean that if you do something radicall with icons you'll get an half assed ui
[11:15] <lapo> since every application as it's own icon styl
[11:15] <lapo> e
[11:15] <troy_s> So what... and you can't control how some devs develop applications either... so be it.
[11:16] <lapo> troy_s: nope, but sice looks like there a lot adoption for tango style doing something else will not give you nice results
[11:16] <troy_s> That kind of Gesamtkunstwerk can't really be hoped for anyways... you might as well carry on worrying about button layouts and such...
[11:16] <lapo> yes you're creative and you have an half assed user experience
[11:16] <lapo> I'm kinda bored of doing icon tango style as well, but it's just the predominant style
[11:17] <troy_s> There are a whole lot of people who could give a rats ass about minor details as long as the bigger picture reflects some value to them.
[11:17] <lapo> if everybody keeps playing in his sand box linux desktop will never be good
[11:18] <troy_s> Well when you find out what 'good' is... let me know.
[11:19] <lapo> troy_s: a polished product is good
[11:19] <troy_s> lapo: More relative terms.  What is polished?  Consistent in the name of consistency's sake?
[11:19] <lapo> having a mishmash of stuff will not gice you a polished product
[11:20] <lapo> troy_s: osx is a polished product, you can criticize the style they used but they used it all over the place
[11:20] <lapo> every applkication bahaves in the same way
[11:21] <lapo> quicker learning curve, less confusion
[11:21] <troy_s> lapo: With a wise starting point.
[11:23] <lapo> at the moment the linux desktop is like frankenstein
[11:23] <_MMA_> troy_s: Can imagemagik (sp?) export a .ico to .png?
[11:25] <troy_s> lapo: Tango isn't going to change that.  The upside of Tango is that people are at least creating icons with care.  That is about all one can hope for.
[11:25] <troy_s> _MMA_: Yes.
[11:25] <troy_s> _MMA_: Some conversions will require similar formats however -- for example -- trying to bump something directly into a 16 colour only format will sometimes bork out.
[11:26] <_MMA_> Ok.
[11:27] <lapo> troy_s: tango is a starting point and it's the only one successfull at the moment
[11:27] <lapo> troy_s: and it aims to change that
[11:27] <troy_s> lapo: Yikes.
[11:28] <troy_s> lapo: I think it is great what Tango has done and is doing (especially when it comes to naming specs etc.).  That said, I would never ever discourage someone from doing something innovative.  You just never know...
[11:28] <andreasn> well, we made stuff even more themeable in 2.20
[11:29] <lapo> troy_s: there are a lot of places where somebody can be innovative, being innovative in that specific field at the moment is just bad for the linux desktop
[11:29] <troy_s> andreasn: And that is a +693012 from me.
[11:29] <troy_s> lapo: And I, among a plethora of other individuals, would fundamentally disagree.
[11:30] <_MMA_> lol
[11:30] <_MMA_> Iant there always? :)
[11:30] <_MMA_> *Isnt
[11:30] <lapo> troy_s: thamability is nothing if you don't have the "themes" what have you got now?
[11:31] <lapo> if you have something how much of the "themability" it is covering, let's say 5%
[11:31] <troy_s> lapo: Look at the flipside -- with all of the terrain Tango has covered, what is the 'theme'?  And even so, a theme defined solely by an Iconset scares me.  Hell... if everyone shared the rather limited vision of icons as interface etc., would Iconfactory be paid large sums of money to create themed icons smidges?
[11:33] <lapo> troy_s: in the case of icons, the "theme" covers that alone, but we're not talking of the base set theme, but all the applications which are shipping custom icons tango style
[11:33] <lapo> and if you count every different icons I think you'll end up with a very high number
[11:34] <lapo> naturally in oss nobody will be able to do all this work in an realistic time
[11:34] <troy_s> lapo:  Who cares?
[11:34] <troy_s> lapo: And do you need ot?
[11:34] <lapo> people who uses the softwae for example?
[11:34] <troy_s> lapo: You can't stop a 'contaminated' application from landing in OSX or Vista... but you can't worry about it.
[11:35] <troy_s> lapo: Well I'm a person last time I checked... so I probably fall into that 'people' category.  Maybe _MMA_?  Maybe god knows what percentage.  It just isn't terribly relevant to some.
[11:35] <lapo> ok, let's fuck usability then
[11:35] <lapo> do you think apple would ship an mishmash of ui elements?
[11:36] <troy_s> WHAT IS USABILITY
[11:36] <troy_s> its all about audience
[11:37] <lapo> oh man
[11:37] <troy_s> and in the end, the argument is fundamentally flawed... if people are surrounded by Russ Meyer pictures you don't go out and say "Make Russ Meyer pictures because most of the movies out there are Russ Meyer like."
[11:37] <troy_s> Sorry, but it's aesthetics.
[11:37] <troy_s> There is no universal 'usable' nor 'functional'
[11:38] <troy_s> It's a myth.  There is an audience.  There is a goal.  Depending on those two factors you will get to different paths.
[11:38] <lapo> but there's the opposite which is what you're proposing mostly
[11:38] <lapo> very application that looks and behave in a different way
[11:38] <lapo> that's interensting but it's not easy to learn
[11:38] <troy_s> lapo: I can't control how people build their applications.  Certain new fresh takes on applications might change the way we think about them.
[11:39] <lapo> luckily you can't I'd say :-)
[11:39] <troy_s> Anyways, it's a healthy discussion.  But alas, I must mow a lawn.
[11:39] <troy_s> lapo: And luckily Tango isn't in OSX I'd say. ;P
[11:40] <nothlit`alpha> i like the tango usability in dark or light environments :)
[11:40] <lapo> tango kinda is in osx, look at their small icons
[11:41] <lapo> they use the same tricks we use
[11:41] <troy_s> Wow.  Now I have read it all.
[11:42] <lapo> I'd have the same opinion you have if we were talking about pictures, but a computer is something yuou have to use, not to stare at
[11:43] <troy_s> lapo: Uh huh.  And a car is something you use too.  A computer arguably is attended to by more people for a longer period of time than _any_ tool previous it's appearance in the 20th century.
[11:43] <troy_s> lapo: Computers are as much a part of living as anything else.  Why do people put pictures of their kids on their desktop?
[11:43] <troy_s> etc.
[11:44] <troy_s> It's a foolish argument down a foolish path.
[11:44] <lapo> you always misinterpret what I say
[11:44] <andreasn> crap, speaking of pages, I promised to draw new abi icons
[11:44] <lapo> you can't compare a car to a desktop system
[11:44] <troy_s> lapo: Exactly.  Nor can you define what a desktop system should be.
[11:44] <lapo> the complexity of a car user interface is a lot less then a computer one
[11:45] <troy_s> lapo: It is fundamentally the most important evolutionary work of our time.  It has evolved from lines and sticks to more.  It continues to evolve.  Hell... an evolutionary look is probably not far off.
[11:45] <lapo> for use interface I mean what interacts with the user there
[11:45] <troy_s> lapo: Then why do a high percentage of adept mainstream computer users experiment with different looking icons?  Why does Iconfactory for example, offer THOUSANDS of icon snippit themes?
[11:46] <troy_s> etc
[11:46] <troy_s> You don't wear the same clothes to anything but a funeral.
[11:46] <lapo> troy_s: how many users use iconfactory stuff?
[11:46] <troy_s> lapo: _boatloads_
[11:46] <lapo> troy_s: do you think they got money for programmers to do something completelly different?
[11:46] <troy_s> lapo: Hell... mainstream movie houses hire them to generate high end franchise icons.
[11:46] <andreasn> I kind of keep being paid for drawing the same icon style all the time :)
[11:47] <troy_s> andreasn: And of course, our entire 'cult' is but a blip on the public radar.
[11:47] <lapo> when a software house which make a windows software hire iconfactory do you think they make them draw something completelly different from what it's in windows?
[11:47] <troy_s> lapo: Look at the icons.  I need not say more.  Look at the diversity.  How much money does Iconfactory get from M. Bey - inc to build a Transformers movie icon set?
[11:48] <troy_s> lapo: It's a losing argument.
[11:48] <andreasn> jasper gets paid to draw osx icons in the same style all the time apparently
[11:48] <troy_s> sorry... anyways.  MOW
[11:48] <troy_s> MUST MOW
[11:48] <troy_s> andreasn: And they didn't change in leopard?
[11:48] <troy_s> please.
[11:48] <lapo> nope they didn't the style is still the same
[11:48] <andreasn> hm, didn't they keep the same style?
[11:49] <andreasn> I've only seen a couple of screens though
[11:49] <troy_s> Cave?  You have seen all the folder changes and such?
[11:49] <troy_s> Lol.
[11:49] <troy_s> Anyways... MOW.  Sorry.
[11:49] <lapo> troy_s: the style is the same still
[11:49] <lapo> they changed the design a bit
[11:50] <andreasn> the control center icons and stuff are the same I think
[11:50] <andreasn> troy_s: is the lawn big?
[11:51] <andreasn> I'm so happy that I'm renting my apartment and don't have to do lawn moving
[11:51] <andreasn> or snow showeling
[11:53] <andreasn> I was always puzzled why my father sighed when it snowed when I was a kid
[11:53] <andreasn> since it was so great from my point of view
[11:53] <andreasn> later, when I grew older and wiser though...
[11:53] <andreasn> :)