[12:37] <persia> albert23: motu-uvf & ubuntu-universe-sponsors
[12:37] <persia> albert23: Sorry.  Backported path.  Just -sponsors.  My mistake.
[12:37] <persia> s/path/patch/
[12:38] <albert23> persia: OK. The upstream author is active in the bug, so I will try to get his feedback on it first.
[12:38] <pkern> ScottK: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libcommons-modeler-java/+bug/150751
[12:38] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150751 in libcommons-modeler-java "[gutsy]  UVFe for libcommons-modeler-java 2.0.1-3" [Undecided,New] 
[12:42] <persia> pkern: You might mention in the bug that there are no other rdepends, although it may not matter.
[12:51] <ScottK> pkern: You I would believe if you say that.  Others I want to see the install log.
[12:51] <ScottK> pkern: There's other stuff this bug needs too https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
[12:54] <pkern> ScottK: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tomcat5.5/+bug/150755
[12:54] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150755 in tomcat5.5 "[gutsy]  UVFe for tomcat5.5 5.5.25-1" [Undecided,New] 
[12:55] <pkern> *cough*
[12:55] <pkern> IMHO the information in the tomcat5.5 has to be sufficient.
[12:56] <pkern> ScottK: You mean the diffstat and the changelog diff?
[12:56] <pkern> Luckily enough there's no ChangeLog.
[12:58] <minghua> I would say that's unlucky.
[12:58] <minghua> Because the point of the changelog diff is to explain what the changes are for.
[12:58] <pkern> minghua: One step less to do.
[12:58] <pkern> minghua: Well, either you let it through or not.
[12:59] <pkern> There is no such "review all changes" on this package.
[12:59] <minghua> Well, I'm not a motu-uvf member, so I'm just commenting on the side.
[01:00] <pkern> It helps that I don't care about that package. :-P
[01:00] <pkern> 87 files changed, 14309 insertions(+), 14877 deletions(-)
[01:01] <pkern> Yeah, the diffstat was even truncated.
[01:01] <pkern> ScottK: I won't do that for Tomcat because it's just useless.
[01:08] <ScottK> pkern: Which won't you do?
[01:09] <ScottK> pkern: I acked the libwhatever modeler java one.
[01:10] <ScottK> You'll need a 2nd ack.  zul is probably your best bet this time of day.
[01:11] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150740 in galculator "[Gutsy]  Galculator v1.3.1 is out" [Wishlist,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/150740
[01:11] <lifeless> whats the easiest way to get pdebuild to pin an other_repo before the official repo ?
[01:12] <lifeless> oh hmm, never mind
[01:14] <DaveMorris> hey guys, I've got a sharedobject-in-library-directory-not-actually-a-shlib error from lintian, I know the SONAME needs to be set when its compiled.  But since the build script is nasty and mainly hand made, can it be done as separate commands after the library has been built?
[01:20] <pkern> zul: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libcommons-modeler-java/+bug/150751
[01:20] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150751 in libcommons-modeler-java "[gutsy]  UVFe for libcommons-modeler-java 2.0.1-3" [Undecided,New] 
[02:08] <ScottK> minghua: Thanks.  I notice he forgot to subscribe motu-uvf so I'd not have gotten the chance to say no if you hadn't mentioned it.
[02:14] <pwnguin> is there a program capable of breaking a patch out into a sort of "tree"?
[02:14] <pwnguin> like how eclipse and friends will put blocks of code into a + structure
[02:17] <minghua> ScottK: You're welcome, although I'm actually sorry to have bothered you with such things.
[02:17] <ScottK> minghua: I have to get my fun somewhere.
[02:17] <ScottK> :-)
[02:18] <minghua> So rejecting stupid UVFe requests qualifies as "fun"? :-)
[02:18] <ScottK> Pretty sad, isn't it.
[02:34] <bddebian> Heya folks
[02:34] <ScottK> Heya bddebian.
[02:35] <bddebian> Hi ScottK
[02:35] <ScottK> What damage can we do while it's just us old farts around?
[02:36] <bddebian> mwuhahaha
[02:36] <ScottK> Tricky changing your nick on OFTC.  They'll never know who you are now.
[02:37] <bddebian> Heh, I didn't even notice that
[02:38] <bddebian> OK, so lordsawar is in new now.  How many months will that sit there? :-)
[02:39] <ScottK> bddebian: It's been running a couple of weeks lately.  YMMV.
[02:40] <ScottK> bddebian: https://launchpad.net/bugs/150765 is probably worth a UVFe.  I doubt the filer knows how to do one.  That might be a worthwhile effort.
[02:40] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150765 in fluxbox "WISHLIST: Fluxbox1.0.0 Final included in Gutsy" [Undecided,New] 
[02:42] <bddebian> Hmm
[02:42] <bddebian> Well I see a few on NEW that have been there a couple of months
[02:43] <ScottK> Most of those appear to be there for a reason.
[02:44] <ScottK> I just had one go through in less than two weeks.
[02:44] <bddebian> Heya jsgotangco
[02:44] <jsgotangco> good morning
[02:45] <ScottK> bddebian: Same with another I was keeping an eye on.
[02:45] <bddebian> OK
[02:46] <pkern> bddebian: ~two weeks
[02:46] <ScottK> bddebian: Longer if you complain about it.
[02:46] <pkern> ScottK: Normally not. ;)
[02:47] <pkern> Longer if there are problems, though.
[02:47] <ScottK> pkern: Shhhh.  You'll spoil my fun.
[02:47] <pkern> ScottK: FUD about Debian? :-P
[02:47] <ScottK> No, just normal Ubuntu tormenting of bddebian.  Something completely different.
[02:47] <pkern> That sounds like hel..
[02:48] <pkern> *hell, not Helsinki...
[02:48] <ScottK> pkern: He's old and cranky like me, so I'm pretty suire it's OK.
[02:49] <pkern> He's got a `fanclub'? o_O
[02:50] <pkern> He's 37, that's already `old'? ;)
[02:52] <pkern> There is no need to list tomcat5.5 uploaded to PPA under +packages and link to gutsy's package pages.
[02:52] <pkern> No heart attack because of that yet but well.
[02:52] <pkern> Not healthy neither.
[02:54] <ScottK> pkern: PPA is a new thing and yes, it's buggy.  Right now if an orig.tar.gz has been uploaded to a PPA, Soyuz will think it has it when doing a sync of a new upstream version and then later on discover it's not in the archive an fail the sync.
[02:54] <pkern> I heared that one, yes.
[02:55] <pkern> That's high on my fun scale, too.
[02:55] <ScottK> pkern: It seems to be old for around here.
[02:55] <pkern> It looks like PPA is not decoupled enough. :-P
[02:56] <pkern> But well, it's LP.
[02:56] <pkern> `Create a product for every OS project, stupid!'
[02:56] <ScottK> Sure, that won't take much time.
[02:57] <bddebian> pkern: How'd you know that? :-)
[02:57] <pkern> bddebian: Behind MOTU know all about you, I'd guess.
[02:58] <bddebian> scary
[02:58] <bddebian> Hey, if upstream is dead is it still bad form to modify the source directly in Debian?
[02:59] <pkern> xtknight: Your gnome-art patch is filthy.
[02:59] <ScottK> Bad form, but not prohibited in Ubunt if it's small.  Don't do it in Debian (although I do see Debian maintainers doing this).
[02:59] <xtknight> pkern, filthy?
[02:59] <pkern> xtknight: Yes. Now you could argument that the thing you patched is filthy too.
[02:59] <bddebian> Gah that sucks especially when it's not using any type of decent patching system :-(
[03:01] <xtknight> hm ok
[03:02] <RAOF> bddebian: Can't you just add a decent patching system?
[03:03] <bddebian> I'm gonna try dpatch now :-)
[03:03] <pkern> dpatch sucks, simple-patchsys sucks much more.
[03:03] <bddebian> Yes but I'm not putting quilt on this sucker :)
[03:03] <pkern> xtknight: Actually I wanted to sync the package from Debian.
[03:04] <pkern> xtknight: But it throws a warning because of some spurious whitespace before  some parantheses (+spelling).
[03:04] <pkern> And I don't want to hack that bloody patch because the identing is just... weird, and there's no quilt!
[03:05] <pwnguin> is quilt actually hard to set up?
[03:05] <pkern> Nope.
[03:05] <xtknight> what do you suggest?  i never could find a good guide for quilt so i just get by w/ diff
[03:06] <xtknight> the debdiff doesn't apply?
[03:06] <pkern> xtknight: *will fix* :-P
[03:06] <pkern> xtknight: And thanks for your contribution.
[03:07] <xtknight> pkern, what do you mean exactly by will fix ?
[03:07] <xtknight> as opposed to "won't fix"? :P
[03:07] <pkern> xtknight: Will fix that issue and upload it.
[03:07] <xtknight> oh ok
[03:08] <ScottK> bddebian: What package?
[03:09] <xtknight> pkern, thx for dealing with it, ideally i would use "quilt" but i just dont understand it
[03:09] <xtknight> i'm not sure it would create anything different from a typical "diff"?
[03:11] <pkern> xtknight: It does exactly that but it allows me to nicely edit files and to refresh the patch afterwards.
[03:11] <xtknight> pkern,  my "diff" 'd  files are not identical to what quilt would come up with?
[03:12] <pwnguin> ok; this is getting rather tiring: ive got a package and i'd like to apply a patch to it. the patch applies, but i need to define HAVE_SYS_ACL_H. im totally lost on where / how to add that flag
[03:13] <RAOF> pwnguin: At configure time?
[03:13] <ScottK> Automatix source for Gutsy is posted on Ubuntu forums if anyone cares.
[03:13] <pwnguin> theres an aclocal.m4, a configure.h.in, and the directory of the executable i want to build has an Makefile.am
[03:13] <persia> xtknight: There's a short example of using quilt in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources
[03:14] <pkern> Automatix!?!?!?!?!
[03:14] <xtknight> automatix was mentioned in a NY times article too :)
[03:14] <pkern> Yeah, that scared the s.... out of me.
[03:14] <RAOF> pwnguin: Are you autoreconf-ing/autogen.sh-ing?
[03:14] <pwnguin> RAOF: no. should i be?
[03:15] <ScottK> Automatix source is supposed to be here: http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=45694&d=1191877399
[03:15] <xtknight> persia, cool i will look at it.  primarily i am confused about "push" and "pop"  reminds me of old calculators
[03:15] <persia> xtknight: Same semantics
[03:15] <ScottK> pkern: They promise they're going to make it not suck and work with us.
[03:15] <xtknight> too bad i dont use old calcs ;)
[03:15] <pkern> ScottK: Do they use dpkg?
[03:16] <RAOF> pwnguin: Well, unless you autoreconf any changes you make to *.ac & *.am won't do anything.
[03:16] <ScottK> pkern: In evil ways (at least in the old version).
[03:16] <pkern> ScottK: Like overriding files from other packages? :-P
[03:17] <ScottK> IIRC there are over-rides and moving of files.  Don't recall for sure if it was from other packages, but wouldn't suprise me.
[03:17] <ScottK> My favorite is routinely sigkilling dpkg because it might not be finished on it's own.
[03:17] <bddebian> ScottK: colorgcc.  I'm supposed to be the maintainer :-)
[03:17] <pkern> ScottK: Nice.
[03:17] <ScottK> bddebian: Then you need to patch it.
[03:17] <xtknight> "already existing patch" 901_xterm_manpage.diff.  this is what i dont understand.  if the patch is already there why are we doing "sed -i" ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/School/PatchingSources )
[03:17] <pwnguin> RAOF: is this something that should be done in rules?
[03:17] <ScottK> pkern: They promise to have mended their ways.
[03:17] <xtknight> also what made that patch and what is in it
[03:17] <bddebian> ScottK: I know. :-(  Unless I just call myself upstream ;-P
[03:18] <pkern> ScottK: So why didn't they just port RPM and use that instead? That has a history of corrupting things on SIGKILL. ;)
[03:18] <pkern> ScottK: Are they certified? :-P
[03:18] <persia> xtknight: A previous developer made the patch.  You should be able to see it in debian/patches
[03:18] <RAOF> pwnguin: Generally, no.  If you need to do autofoo you generally stick the changes in a (gigantic) patch.
[03:18] <xtknight> persia, oh we are updating his patch?
[03:18] <xtknight> didn't see edit, got it now
[03:19] <xtknight> that's not so difficult.  would be nice if quilt had something like diff Nru so you could do stuff recursively .
[03:19] <pkern> So Tomcat is still running. I guess I will have to reinstall soonish.
[03:19] <ScottK> bddebian: Interesting approach to a patch system youve got there...
[03:20] <ScottK> pkern: Don't get me started.
[03:20] <bddebian> ScottK: I didn't write that :-)
[03:20] <pkern> ScottK: I just installed Gutsy.  At that point I need to do that I could just move on. ;)
[03:21] <pkern> I'm not sure Debian would be better though.
[03:21] <pkern> No viable alternative for me for now.
[03:22] <RAOF> Oh, great.  It seems that with Xgl we can either (1) have the screen turn off after 20 min of inactivity or (2) Never have the screen turn off.
[03:22] <pkern> I would go for `turn the screen off after every inactivity'.
[03:22] <ScottK> pkern: ?
[03:22] <bddebian> Gaaahhh
[03:22] <pkern> That's somehow missing from the list of options. :-P
[03:22] <bddebian> This sucks
[03:23] <ScottK> bddebian: Would it be a help to you if I made your debian/rules do dpatch so you could just dpatch-edit-patch?
[03:23] <bddebian> I already did that part but now I'm trying to apply the existing patches into dpatches
[03:24] <ScottK> Ah.  So fire up dpatch-edit-patch and then throw the patches into it with patch.
[03:24] <bddebian> That's what I tried
[03:25] <ScottK> DIdn't work?
[03:25] <bddebian> I ended up with some weirdass colorgcc.orig file
[03:25] <pkern> ScottK: The experience is a regression compared to what I had before, sadly enough. Ok, most could be deduced to fglrx.
[03:32] <pkern> o_O
[03:37] <ScottK> pkern: Lesson there is don't talk mean to gnomefreak.
[03:38] <ScottK> StevenK: pkern has done us the favor of fixing Tomcat (and a bunch of CVEs), but he needs a couple of UVFe's approved....
[03:38] <StevenK> Yay
[03:38] <ScottK> Bug #150751
[03:38] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150751 in libcommons-modeler-java "[gutsy]  UVFe for libcommons-modeler-java 2.0.1-3" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/150751
[03:38] <gnomefreak> ScottK: keeping bad trolls out
[03:38] <pkern> A couple. Yeah, exactly two.
[03:38] <gnomefreak> very bad ones
[03:39] <ScottK> Cool.
[03:39] <pkern> Wouldn't the appropriate way on Freenode be a KLINE? ;)
[03:39] <ScottK> StevenK: and Bug #150755
[03:39] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150755 in tomcat5.5 "[gutsy]  UVFe for tomcat5.5 5.5.25-1" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/150755
[03:39] <pkern> Beware. Here might be dragons.
[03:39] <gnomefreak> pkern: not really we tried that
[03:40] <gnomefreak> pkern: this is someone from a few nights ago
[03:40] <bddebian> Gah, WTF, why does it keep creating these damn foo.orig files
[03:40] <persia> bddebian: It's the fuzz
[03:42] <StevenK> ScottK, pkern: Both bugs rubber stamped - be sure to get libcommons-modeler-java sync'd before you upload the merge of tomcat5.5
[03:42] <ScottK> StevenK: Thanks.
[03:43] <pkern> StevenK: Sure, thanks.
[03:43] <ScottK> pkern: libcommons-modeler-java was a sync, right?
[03:44] <pkern> Yes.
[03:46] <bddebian> persia: Can I just whack them?
[03:48] <persia> bddebian: If you're running a patch system, and it's generating .orig files, it usually means the patches don't quite match (fuzz).  If the results are acceptable (.rej is missing, usually), you can kill the .orig files.  If you're encountering fuzz, it's best practice to refresh the patches to not get the fuzz, and apply cleanly.  (In short: "yes, but...")
[03:48] <bddebian> Yeah, I get succeeded at offset foo :-(
[03:49] <StevenK> There's something that can rejig patch files...
[03:49] <bddebian> Isn't the whole point of dpatch-edit-patch to only write back what I changed?
[03:50] <persia> bddebian: There's nice tools (look in patchutils), but I usually just use edit-foo-patch, apply the old patch, clean up the result, clobber .orig & .rej, and exit to get a refreshed patch.
[03:50] <StevenK> dpatch-edit-patch shouldn't write patches that apply with fuzz.
[03:50] <persia> Ah.  In the dpatch-edit-patch session, delete the .orig files after cleaning the fuzz to generate clean patches.
[03:51] <bddebian> I did that but my second patch still gives Succeeded at offset... :-(
[03:52] <persia> bddebian: dpatch-edit-patch is generating fuzz?
[03:52] <bddebian> It seems that way
[03:52] <persia> bddebian: Is there something else changing the sources prior to dpatch application?
[03:53] <bddebian> I don't think so
[03:54] <bddebian> kanji?
[03:55] <bddebian> Hi Hobbsee :-)
[03:55] <persia> bddebian: Just to make sure, your procedure has been 1) unpack the package, 2) extract the old patches, 3) dpatch-edit-patch $patchname, 4) apply the old patches, 5) clean the fuzz, 6) exit, 7) run build?
[03:55] <RAOF> Hey Hobbsee
[03:55] <persia> 
[03:55] <bddebian> persia: Aye, one at a time
[03:56] <bddebian> Well I didn't build between patch 1 and patch 2
[03:56] <persia> Right.  Iteration over the patches for steps 3-6.
[03:56] <bddebian> Aye
[03:57] <Hobbsee> hiya!
[03:57] <pkern> persia: I like that exclamation mark.
[03:58] <persia> double-byte is always better
[03:58] <pkern> Google only know Japanese, not Chinese.
[03:58] <pkern> persia: Yeah but the spacing is wrong in Latin scripts and... WTH, ANOTHER CODEPOINT!?
[03:58] <pkern> persia: But it makes sense looking at Japanese.
[03:59] <persia> pkern: The spacing is why you need another codepoint.  The idea is to differentiate between things that should take as much space as a calligraphic character (1:1) and things that only need half the space (2:1).
[04:01] <pkern> persia: Yeah. But well, I'm using a monospace font anyway. :-P
[04:02] <pkern> There is still an archive admin awake. I'd guess it's Steve.
[04:02] <persia> pkern: Doesn't '' render differently than '!',even in your monospace font?
[04:02] <pkern> persia: It does.
[04:02] <minghua> persia: Depends on the font.
[04:02] <pkern> persia: Point is that "half the space" is mood on a monospace font. But it's indeed placed differently within the fixed width place.
[04:03] <minghua> It renders pretty much the same here.
[04:03] <persia> minghua: Really?  I didn't know there were any fonts that rendered full-width characters as half-width.
[04:03] <bddebian> Does this look normal?:
[04:03] <bddebian> dpatch deapply-all -v
[04:03] <bddebian> reverting patch 01_split_non_quoted from ./ ...
[04:03] <bddebian> patching file colorgcc
[04:03] <minghua> persia: not width, but the shape is pretty much the same.
[04:03] <pkern> persia: Hm ok you are right.
[04:03] <persia> minghua: Ah.  Yes.
[04:04] <Hobbsee> oh, fricking kmos
[04:04] <RAOF> *again*?
[04:04] <StevenK> What's he done?
[04:04] <ScottK> Hobbsee: What now?
[04:04] <minghua> persia: And actually, I've seen some broken font that renders half-width stuff the same as full-width ones.
[04:04] <StevenK> No no, *STILL*?
[04:04] <Hobbsee> just his filing this galculator bug.
[04:04] <persia> That's to be rejected, no?
[04:04] <ScottK> Oh.  That one.  You saw my response, right?
[04:04] <Hobbsee> ScottK: you've seen it
[04:04] <Hobbsee> persia: of course
[04:04] <Hobbsee> ScottK: mine was better.
[04:05] <persia> minghua: I've seen that a lot: silly people who don't use roman scripts.
[04:05] <minghua> Well... if you call majority of 15 billion Chinese stupid people...
[04:05] <StevenK> 15 billion you say?
[04:05] <minghua> 1.5 billion, sorry.
[04:06] <persia> minghua: Not stupid: only silly, in reference to font design.
[04:06] <minghua> stupid western units.
[04:06] <persia> minghua: Careful there: almost 3 million people use western units
[04:06] <minghua> In Chinese we use 10000, then 100000000 as units.
[04:06] <persia> s/million/billion/
[04:06] <StevenK> 2.9 billion of those use them incorrectly. :-P
[04:06] <ScottK> Hobbsee: You need to lobby your LP dev friends to add Importance "Insane".
[04:07] <persia> ScottK: Does that fall beneath wishlist?
[04:07] <ScottK> persia: Yes.
[04:07] <Hobbsee> ScottK: haha
[04:08] <ScottK> Then lobby them to make all jdong's bugs default to that importance. ;-)
[04:08] <Hobbsee> haha
[04:08] <Hobbsee> !jdong | jdong
[04:08] <ubotu> jdong: jdong is Hobbsee: jdong: yes, but you're FULL OF CRACK!
[04:08] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Did you see the Automatix devs posted their source to the forum thread?
[04:09] <pkern> Hah.
[04:09] <Hobbsee> ScottK: yeah, i saw something like that
[04:09] <pkern> More buuuuuugs!
[04:09] <Hobbsee> i'm still interested in their definition of 'fixed'
[04:09] <pkern> (Now let that b sound like a d...)
[04:09] <pkern> Or rather dr.
[04:11] <ScottK> So now's the time to talk him into uploading stuff to Debian....
[04:12] <pkern> If that would work...
[04:12] <bddebian> Ah, 2 for 2, here goes #3 :)
[04:12] <pkern> ScottK: If you suggest me, or rather my eyes, that you're bddebian... :-P Or rather the person who tries.
[04:14] <ScottK> bddebian: It's 4AM where he is.  I'm not sure there's much more than that to get.
[04:14] <bddebian> heh
 "Why are we still awake?" <a friend of mine> "I won't tell you!"
[04:14] <ScottK> Yes.  The joys of life at University.
[04:15] <ScottK> Speaking of which, I think I'll go get a drink.
[04:15] <pkern> Hm. I could fetch me a beer. That would be a deal at least.
[04:16] <pkern> The free bear^Hbeer that was promised for the attendance of the last MOTU meeting didn't ship yet.
[04:16] <StevenK> The free beabeer ?
[04:17] <ScottK> As long as the free bear comes with a cage, I'm ok.
[04:18] <RAOF> How big is this bear, and can you mail it?
[04:18] <persia> pkern: That was only a resolution to provide fee bears to regular attendees, for future meetings.  Ship dates require further discussion.
[04:19] <minghua> ScottK: Be careful, nobody promised the cage is free.
[04:19] <ScottK> I expect if it makes it to the house without the driver being eaten, I'll be safe enough.
[04:19] <ScottK> It'd be a good thing to threaten the kids with anyway...
[04:20] <ScottK> "If you don't behave, I'll send you to the bear..."
[04:20] <Hobbsee> hahaha
[04:20] <pkern> ScottK: CAREBEARSTARE
[04:20] <ScottK> I'm fairly certain I don't want to understand that.
[04:20] <pkern> "Papa, may I snuggle against that bear? It looks cuddly!"
[04:21] <minghua> It's just a big version of teddy.
[04:21] <pkern> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Care_Bears
[04:21] <ScottK> I was afraid you were headed in that direction.
[04:21] <pkern> The Care Bears' ultimate "weapon" is the "Care Bear Stare," in which the collected Bears stand together and radiate light from their respective tummy symbols. These combine to form a ray of love and good cheer which could bring care and joy into the target's heart.
[04:21] <ScottK> One of our German au pairs was a HUGE Care Bear fan and so I'm already overexposed.
[04:22] <ScottK> pkern: Sounds perfect for Ubuntu though.
[04:22] <pkern> ScottK: Fine.  I only know the "movies" they depicted on TV.
[04:22] <pkern> ScottK: Teletubbies?
[04:22] <ScottK> Gah.
[04:22] <ScottK> Fortunately my youngest (4) is to old for teletubbies.
[04:22] <pkern> Be nice to eachother!  Time for Teletubiies!
[04:23] <bddebian> heh
[04:23] <ScottK> pkern: You need to talk to bddebian.  IIRC he's the teletubbies fan.
[04:23] <bddebian> Nah, poobah ;-P
[04:23] <bddebian> Or boopah or whatever the hell those evil things are called
[04:23] <persia> The maker of lists?
[04:25] <bddebian> My wife thinks it is boobah
[04:27] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Who said MOTU wasn't fun any more...
[04:28] <StevenK> Hobbsee: Kettle for you, line 2.
[04:28] <Hobbsee> ScottK: heh
[04:28] <Hobbsee> StevenK: hmmm?
[04:28] <bddebian> ScottK: I've changed my ways ;-)
[04:28] <pkern> Kettle Pot Black?
[04:28] <StevenK> Hobbsee: As in, "Pot. Kettle. Black."
[04:28] <ScottK> Something like that.
[04:28] <Hobbsee> ah, yes.
[04:29] <bddebian> Holy crap, 3 for 3, thanks persia
[04:29] <persia> s/iy/ity/
[04:29] <bddebian> pfft
[04:30] <ScottK> persia: I saw you were one of the recent uploaders for fluxbox.  Would you take a look at Bug #150765 and turn it into a UVFe if you think it's worthwhile?
[04:30] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150765 in fluxbox "WISHLIST: Fluxbox1.0.0 Final included in Gutsy" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/150765
[04:31] <StevenK> Sure you do. "Short, skinny, looks like a weasel"
[04:31] <ScottK> Unless I got it wrong, upload before last was yours.
[04:31] <pkern> WISHLIST: Please release Gutsy bug-free and usable for everyone, that would solve bug #1, kthxbye.
[04:31] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
[04:31] <pkern> *cough*
[04:32] <pwnguin> if that was the goal
[04:32] <pwnguin> then i think compiz was a mistake
[04:32] <pkern> It was.
[04:32] <pkern> Who seriously doubts that?
[04:32] <pkern> And anyway: I don't have any compiz. I'm on fglrx, screwing my laptop.
[04:33] <persia> After using a Mac for a while, I look forward to compiz working.
[04:33] <pwnguin> compiz is frustrating. 20 percent is great and awesome
[04:33] <pwnguin> the other 80 needs some love
[04:33] <pkern> After using a Mac for a while I would appreciate SUSPEND.
[04:33] <Hobbsee> well, they didnt want to drop it *three* releases in a row
[04:33] <tonyyarusso> Maybe he should think before speaking more then Hobbsee ?  ;)
[04:33] <poningru> anyone else know if bcm43xx-fwcutter is broken on purpose?
[04:34] <poningru> it puts the fw in /lib/firmware
[04:34] <pwnguin> Well then put the money where the mouth is, cuz clearly upstream isn't living up to the high goals people put on Ubunut
[04:34] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: well, it's hard to tell how fast things will move
[04:34] <poningru> not in /lib/firmware/`uname -r`
[04:34] <StevenK> I'm going to treat compiz like metacity - if it doesn't get in my way or annoy me, it can stay.
[04:34] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: true - still a bit premature I'd say
[04:34] <ScottK> StevenK: Sounds about right.
[04:34] <persia> ScottK: Ah.  I just requested a sync.  I'll take a look at it, but I've never dug into the code, so no guarantees.
[04:35] <tonyyarusso> Does compiz work sanely with workspaces yet?
[04:35] <poningru> tonyyarusso: no
[04:35] <ScottK> persia: It needs a UVFe.
[04:35] <tonyyarusso> poningru: bah.  Then it will get in my way.
[04:35] <poningru> tonyyarusso: it cant do mouse scroll
[04:35] <persia> ScottK: Also packaging.  Debian only has 1.0~rc3-5
[04:35] <poningru> but otherwise itsgotten pretty sane
[04:35] <pkern> ScottK: You're blocking real work and willingly people, ain't you? ;)
[04:35] <ScottK> persia: Ah.
[04:35] <ScottK> pkern: I am?
[04:36] <poningru> like each workspace == one side on the cube/triangle etc.
[04:36] <pkern> ScottK: "I do $foo." "That will need a UVFe!" That's spoiling the fun! ;)
[04:36] <ScottK> pkern: Ah.  I'd think you being German and all would like all the forms filled out ;-)
[04:36] <pkern> Even Soyuz wants us to think that gutsy is frozen.
[04:36] <persia> ScottK: Could you subscribe me to 150765?  The "subscribe to" link doesn't render in Safari :(
[04:37] <pkern> ScottK: With my Debian hat... probably. :-P
[04:37] <pkern> ScottK: But Ubuntu is pure... love. :-P
[04:37] <ScottK> Soyuz doesn't know from Universe/Main.
[04:37] <Hobbsee> pkern: yes, but soyuz is brain-dead in a fair few places, so...
[04:37] <pkern> (Which is irrational, of course.)
[04:37] <ScottK> persia: Sure.
[04:37] <pkern> Hobbsee: Welcome to `software as a service'.
[04:37] <Hobbsee> yeah, well.
[04:37] <persia> ScottK: Thanks.  I'll confirm assignment (or lack thereof) in ~12 hours.
[04:38] <ScottK> persia: Subscribed.
[04:38] <ScottK> pkern: Very good.  You're pretty new here, but you got it already.
[04:39] <pkern> ScottK: My pleasure.
[04:39] <pkern> (If that was the right term, don't know.)
[04:39] <ScottK> pkern: Actually for the UVFe persia's looking at, I'd take "I looked at it and we should do it" without all the paperwork (much as I did your Tomcat UVFe).
[04:39] <ScottK> Sure.
[04:40] <pkern> Somebody else must have solved the paperwork for me.
[04:40] <pkern> For Tomcat. I don't have a clue about that.
[04:40] <pkern> Somebody said `it's easy'.
[04:40] <pwnguin> victory!
[04:41] <pwnguin> well, it builds at least. no idea if the package works
[04:41] <pwnguin> testing is for users =)
[04:41] <bddebian> heh
[04:41] <pkern> Users will iron it out!
[04:41] <pwnguin> fortunately, I are one
[04:42] <pkern> But OTOH there are 18186 new bugs reported against Ubuntu, and 33839 bugs open.
[04:42] <pkern> And only two are assigned to me. Heh. And probably only because they are incomplete.
[04:43] <bddebian> pkern: Amen brother :-(
[04:46] <minghua> persia: But http://people.ubuntu-in.org/~carthik/bugstats/ says in the past six months open bug number grew from 20,000 to 30,000?
[04:47] <pkern> Get it to scale logarithmic.
[04:47] <ScottK> Who'd have thought it possible.
[04:47] <RAOF> ScottK: One that's already fixed, too :)
[04:47] <pkern> Or s/scale/increase/
[04:48] <persia> minghua: Umm..  That's a little out of date (for me), but it looks like April was around 26,000.  Is there a different, updated, page?
[04:49] <minghua> persia: Yeah, I noticed it's outdated as well.
[04:49] <pkern> n8 folks
[04:50] <minghua> persia: https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bugs says we have 33,840 bugs open now, so your 4-month claim is not bad.
[04:51] <ScottK> g'night pkern
[04:52] <pwnguin> persia: open bugs isn't the same as bugs existing
[04:52] <poningru> halp
[04:52] <pwnguin> it could be that people simply stop reporting bugs becaues 90 percent go unanswered
[04:52] <poningru> bug 130511
[04:52] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 130511 in linux-source-2.6.22 "Gusty updates broke my wireless connectivity" [High,Triaged]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/130511
[04:52] <persia> pwnguin: Exactly.  Bugs existing grow fairly quickly (see #ubuntu-bugs).  If the number of open bugs is fairly static, that means we're keeping up, which is better than before.
[04:53] <poningru> the bcm firmware and pcm files arent getting copied over to the newer kernels
[04:53] <persia> pwnguin:I think there are still plenty of reporters :)
[04:53] <pwnguin> persia: recall that bugs expire with time now, if no attention was paid
[04:54] <ScottK> poningru: We're already past kernel freeze, so don't hold your breath.
[04:54] <persia> Ah.  Right.  That does tend to skew the statistics.  Also, it means there's less low-hanging fruit for new bug triagers (the changelog says this is fixed in version foo)
[04:54] <Hobbsee> there's been a kernel upload, it's in unaccepted atm
[04:54] <ScottK> pwnguin: Only if there's no response and it's left incomplete.
[04:54] <Hobbsee> unsure what it changes - but it's probalby not hard to find out
[04:54] <poningru> ScottK: well unfortunately this break wifi for a crap load of people
[04:55] <ScottK> poningru: I'm not a kernel dev, so nothing I can do.
[04:55] <pwnguin> ScottK: which percentage of bugs do you think this applies to?
[04:55] <persia> So the bugs have to first be marked incomplete?  "New" bugs don't expire?
[04:55] <bddebian> So, who's the perl expert? :-)
[04:55] <ScottK> pwnguin: I've no idea.  I got a lot of bugmail when they released the last LP "upgrade", but most of them were wrong and will be reopened.
[04:56] <poningru> anyone know how bad a simple ln -s /lib/firmware/whatever/bcm43xx_* /lib/firmware/`uname -r`/ would be?
[04:56] <ajmitch> good day
[04:56] <ScottK> bddebian: That would be StevenK, but he's reluctant to admit it.
[04:56] <ScottK> hello ajmitch.
[04:56] <bddebian> Heya ajmitch
[04:57] <StevenK> Whatever ScottK says about me is a lie.
[04:57] <StevenK> :-P
[04:57] <DarkMageZ> can anyone recommend an example package that just dumps data to a specific place on the filesystem? no compiling, maybe some permission altering :)
[04:57] <ajmitch> StevenK: you're allowed to disavow all perl knowledge now
[04:57] <bddebian> Oh man, that is sooo open if I wasn't held to some sort of CoC :-)
[04:57] <ScottK> bddebian: I was wrong.  StevenK knows nothing about Perl.
[04:58] <StevenK> Hah
[04:58] <StevenK> ajmitch: Awww, why not?
[04:58] <pwnguin> DarkMageZ: anything -doc?
[04:59] <RAOF> DarkMageZ: mplayre-themes
[04:59] <DarkMageZ> ty :)
[04:59] <ajmitch> StevenK: I said you can, so avoid the perl burden as much as possible :)
[04:59] <ajmitch> otherwise you'll end up hacking debhelper & lintian or something
[04:59] <StevenK> Oh, right.
[04:59] <ScottK> ajmitch: And Perl is definitely a burden.
[04:59] <RAOF> DarkMageZ: Sorry, mplayer-skins
[05:00] <ajmitch> so, is tracker still enabled & buggy by default?
[05:00] <persia> ajmitch: Yes.
[05:00] <ajmitch> excellent
[05:00] <ajmitch> gutsy will rock then
[05:00] <RAOF> Less buggy, though.
[05:00] <pwnguin> enabeled, i think so. buggy, maybe not
[05:01] <ajmitch> so it won't feel like my laptop is a 486 with 32MB of RAM?
[05:01] <RAOF> It no longer segfaults on amd64, neither does it index on disc, nor does it completely destroy responsiveness.
[05:01] <pwnguin> time to sell consulting services for "fixing" gutsy
[05:01] <RAOF> s/disc/battery/
[05:01] <ajmitch> RAOF: will it handle a few million files in /home? :)
[05:01] <poningru> ScottK: s/tracker/strigi ;)
[05:02] <poningru> ajmitch: actually yes
[05:02] <ScottK> strigi is not quit so painful I understand.
[05:02] <ScottK> quit/quite
[05:02] <RAOF> ajmitch: It handles my $HOME with a whole lot of git & bzr trees fine.
[05:02] <poningru> ajmitch: my home folder has couple of hundred thousand files
[05:02] <poningru> since I sshfs my entire server on there
[05:02] <ajmitch> poningru: right, I've easily got over 2 million or so
[05:03] <ajmitch> so tracker would sit & churn
[05:03] <pwnguin> ok, so it turns out i need acls enabled on ext3 to make GNOME screensaver work with fingerprint reading securely
[05:03] <poningru> ajmitch: I can honestly say its not so bad for me
[05:03] <poningru> try it out I would say
[05:03] <pwnguin> a) how? and b) odds of getting such into Ubuntu by default?
[05:03] <RAOF> 216K files in my $HOME.
[05:04] <RAOF> pwnguin: (a) add "acl" to mount opts in fstab, (b) It'd be cool to?
[05:04] <pwnguin> RAOF: neat
[05:04] <ScottK> pwnguin: a) Dunno.  b) nil for Gutsy at this point.
[05:04] <pwnguin> ScottK: yea, i meant to say Hardy
[05:04] <ajmitch> RAOF: you don't have 'large' piles of mail in maildir format
[05:04] <RAOF> ajmitch: That's true, I don't.
[05:05] <StevenK> I do, it just lives on my mail server, not my desktop. :-)
[05:05] <RAOF> pwnguin: But why do you need ACL support from ext3 for fingerprint reading?
[05:05] <pwnguin> because gnome sucks
[05:05] <ajmitch> StevenK: my desktop & mail server are one :)
[05:05] <ajmitch> mutt does tend to start doing funny things with lots of mail in a folder though
[05:06] <pwnguin> the basic scenario is this: thinkfinger records a users fingerprint in /etc/pam_thinkfinger/user.bir
[05:07] <pwnguin> RAOF: with very limited permissions, because on scan, it compares that file against a new scan
[05:07] <StevenK> There go. Half a million files or so in $HOME
[05:07] <ajmitch> StevenK: you just had find count them all?
[05:07] <StevenK> Yah
[05:07] <RAOF> pwnguin: (1) Shouldn't that go in /var/lib? and (2) Ah, right.
[05:08] <ajmitch> I'll get back to you in an hour or two with a count :)
[05:08] <StevenK> Hah
[05:08] <pwnguin> RAOF: (1) possibly. but i didnt write this. and debian's being a real bitch about fixing things
[05:09] <pwnguin> RAOF: upstream is basically floating in the ocean while the main developer panics about suse 10.3 or something, being a hired developer and all
[05:10] <ajmitch> :0:> find ~/Mail |wc -l
[05:10] <ajmitch> 844525
[05:11] <ajmitch> not quite as bad as I thought there :)
[05:11] <StevenK> Heh
[05:11] <ajmitch> though a number of large mailboxes are still in mbox format
[05:12] <minghua> But then again, my $HOME is pretty empty.
[05:15] <Hobbsee> sarah@LongPointyStick:~$ find ~ /storage/ | wc -l
[05:15] <Hobbsee> 112248
[05:15] <Hobbsee> hm, not bad.
[05:15] <ajmitch> that's nothing
[05:15] <Hobbsee> yeah, i dont keep all my mail.  that'd help
[05:15] <Hobbsee> and i dont keep every upload that i do - only some of the bzr trees, and the kde source.
[05:16] <ajmitch> I keep too many uploads & unpacked source trees
[05:16] <ajmitch> probably why /home is 99% full
[05:18] <StevenK> I tend to keep them as well, my 15Gb /home is 94% full
[05:19] <pwnguin> i should get an nslu2 sometime
[05:19] <pwnguin> and undo my reiser storage
[05:19] <pwnguin> that was just a sad mistake
[05:24] <bddebian> Hmm, is ccache installed by default on Debian?
[05:26] <StevenK> I seriously doubt it.
[05:26] <bddebian> Grr, then I don't know wtf these people are talking about on this bug for colorgcc
[05:27] <bddebian> There has to be a better way to do it
[05:27] <pwnguin> what? build-essential isnt even installed by default
[05:28] <bddebian> I don't think so
[05:29] <persia> build-essential is definitely not installed by default.
[05:35] <minghua> bddebian: Not only it's not installed by default, it's not even enabled when installed.
[05:40] <bddebian> w00t
[05:40] <bddebian> Well I don't know how to make colorgcc just "know" what gcc the user wants it to use.. Sheesh
[05:41] <imbrandon> bddebian: `which gcc` ?
[05:41] <imbrandon> heh
[05:43] <pwnguin> imbrandon: well, im guessing someone would like it to handle makefiles etc
[05:44] <pwnguin> to where you install colorgcc and it automagically calls the correct gcc alternatives
[05:45] <pwnguin> it might make sense to just hit up alternatives directly, and put colorgcc somewhere high up in PATH, but that's sorta ... scary
[05:45] <bddebian> Well it's already set to utilized CC=colorgcc, etc so I dunno why that doesn't do the trick
[05:45] <bddebian> s/utilized/utilize/
[06:29] <bddebian> Bah, gnight folks..
[08:17] <dholbach> good morning
[08:17] <RAOF> Good morning dholbach
[08:17] <dholbach> heya RAOF
[08:18] <RAOF> I wonder if the PPA is meant to have a > 1hr time lag between source-package-added and queuing the build.
[08:20] <StevenK> RAOF: The real archive used to.
[08:21] <persia> RAOF: I doubt it's intentional, but it's in line with the way the real archive behaves
[08:21] <persia> StevenK: It got better?
[08:21] <StevenK> persia: I've seen it work better, depending on when in the cycle a package was uploaded/accepted.
[08:22] <RAOF> Fair enough.  This seems to be a regression, though.  The PPA used to queue the builds in < 15min.
[08:22] <persia> StevenK: Do you think that's a load issue, or a Soyuz configuration issue?
[08:22] <persia> RAOF: Regressions are fair game.  Complain in #lanchpad :)
[08:22] <StevenK> persia: I think it's a locking issue, personally.
[08:22] <persia> (s/an/aun/)
[08:22] <RAOF> Once the reviever meeting is over, #launchpad it is :)
[08:23] <Hobbsee> RAOF: publisher takes a while to run, usually
[08:23] <Hobbsee> but, who knows
[08:23] <StevenK> (Roughly 40 minutes)
[08:24] <\sh> moins
[08:25] <blueyed> ScottK: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apt-listchanges/+bug/139143/comments/17
[08:25] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 139143 in apt-listchanges "apt-listchanges crashes after python upgrade" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
[08:35] <dholbach> Hobbsee, ScottK: it was not necessary to close bug 150740
[08:35] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150740 in galculator "[Gutsy]  Galculator v1.3.1 is out" [Wishlist,Won't fix]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/150740
[08:35] <dholbach> Hobbsee, ScottK: it can still be marked as 'later'
[08:35] <dholbach> ok
[08:35] <Hobbsee> but true, it looked like a uvfe bug.
[08:35] <Hobbsee> and presumably debian will have it for hardy
[08:36] <dholbach> we have quite some changes in galculator for UME, I don't think it'll be easy to just sync it
[08:36] <Hobbsee> then i dont trust him at all with uploading it.
[08:37] <Hobbsee> but, fair enough
[08:37] <dholbach> he should coordinate with adilson
[08:37] <Hobbsee> adilson isnt stupid enough to attmept to mangle his changes.
[08:37] <Hobbsee> it'd be quicker just to redo it from scratch, methinks
[08:37] <Hobbsee> i dont get why he felt that it wasnt necessary to do a UVFe for it though.
[08:37] <dholbach> that's something they can both figure out for Hardy - I agree: it does not look like it's something we want now
[08:39] <Hobbsee> dholbach: i dont get why he wastes other people's time though, when he clearly doesnt think it's required to do a uvfe.  or something.
[08:39] <Hobbsee> i thought he'd been told off enough times to know that that was a bad idea.
[08:40] <dholbach> did he subscribe motu-uvf?
[08:40] <Hobbsee> yup
[08:40] <dholbach> hrm
[08:40] <dholbach> I'll ask him later today
[08:40] <Hobbsee> oh, i thoguth he did.  why doesnt it show on the activity log
[08:40] <Hobbsee> he subscribed u-u-s, so he clearly thought it was OK for uploading
[08:41] <dholbach> hrm
[08:41] <Hobbsee> could have sworn it was a uvfe bug - it showed in that folder, i'm sure
[08:42] <Hobbsee> whether it was or not is debatable - it was still wasting people's time, as it shouldnt be uploaded without a uvfe regardless.
[08:42] <\sh> Hobbsee, did the reporter check if the old gdk function calls are removed from the new version of galculator?
[08:43] <Hobbsee> he should know better, and i'm fairly certain that he does know better, as he could manage for the other bugs.  i'd be very surprised if this wasnt a malicious attempt at bypassing the uvfe queue.
[08:43] <Hobbsee> whether by actual maliciousness or by incompetence, i'm unsure.
[08:43] <\sh> and I wonder....sebebastien is the debian maintainer when I see the debian uploads...he should know if it's feasable to sync or not at a certain ubuntu release state
[08:43] <Hobbsee> \sh: very unlikely.
[08:44] <Hobbsee> \sh: yeah, but....you don't seriously expect this guy to act sanely like that, do you?
[08:44] <persia> \Sh: it was adjusted by upstream.
[08:44] <Hobbsee> dholbach: also, he's still touching other people's bugs - sync requests, etc.  setting them to wishlist.  he said that he wouldnt do it, last time i told him why it was a bad idea.
[08:44] <dholbach> he should not have subscribed any of the teams, but it's not wasted work
[08:45] <dholbach> it can be re-reviewed for hardy
[08:45] <Hobbsee> if you can find anyone brave enough to do the review.
[08:46] <dholbach> adilson dived quite deep into galculator code :)
[08:46] <\sh> Hobbsee, well, I trust only myself and I trust people who are working steadily on a project
[08:47] <Hobbsee> \sh: you must not have been around enough to hear about kmos yet.  consider yourself lucky.
[08:47] <\sh> persia, right
[08:49] <\sh> Hobbsee, well, I had my experience with syncs/new upstream versions...so I consider myself not as lucky, but experienced ;)
[08:50] <pwnguin> kmos being a person, not a package
[08:51] <Hobbsee> \sh: :)
[08:51] <\sh> pwnguin, I know that kmos is a who, not a which ;)
[09:01] <AstralJava> Hobbsee: Sorry to bug you personally, but I don't really know other devs that look after KDE. May I ask where I could get info regarding running KDE4, or specifically, some advice as I ran into a problem trying to run some KDE4 programs?
[09:02] <Hobbsee> um, #kubuntu-devel, #kde4-devel would be good places to ask
[09:02] <Hobbsee> assuming anyone's awake
[09:02] <AstralJava> Thanks. :)
[09:06] <\sh> anyone who wants to fix dircproxy=
[09:06] <\sh> ?
[09:06] <\sh> http://security-tracker.debian.net/tracker/CVE-2007-5226
[09:06] <ubotu> irc_server.c in dircproxy 1.2.0 and earlier allows remote attackers to cause a denial of service (segmentation fault) via an ACTION command without a parameter, which triggers a NULL pointer dereference, as demonstrated using a blank /me message from irssi. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2007-5226)
[09:07] <\sh> well, I'll try to fix it...
[09:10] <dholbach> hey vil
[09:10] <dholbach> hey AstralJava
[09:11] <vil> hey dholbach
[09:12] <vil> dholbach, I hope I was not too strict about the Subclipse package
[09:12] <AstralJava> Hi there dholbach!
[09:12] <dholbach> vil: no, your input was great to have
[09:18] <geser> morning
[09:19] <dholbach> hey geser
[09:42] <white> \sh: i tried to backport a fix
[09:42] <white> \sh: have a look at the patch, if you want
[09:43] <white> \sh: http://developer.skolelinux.no/~white/security/dircproxy/patch
[09:43] <white> still need to test, of course :)
[09:44] <white> \sh: and btw it would be a good idea to coordinate security stuff over #debian-security on OFTC ;)
[09:44] <white> it also avoids duplicated work
[09:44] <\sh> white, well, I didn't setup my xchat to connect to my dircproxy for oftc yet...normally I'm lurking there :)
[09:44] <white> hehe
[09:44] <\sh> white, but this solution is equal to mine ;)
[09:45] <white> \sh: i will probably NMU it tonight, you can feel free to do so before me, if you want
[09:45] <\sh> white: so I'll add it to all supported ubuntu releases...with a reference to you explaining that it can be dropped for the next sync round
[09:46] <white> feel free to do so :)
[09:47] <\sh> white, cool...thx :)
[09:47] <white> would be nice, if the debian maintainer either orphans it or updates the package :/
[09:51] <\sh> fcking hal
[10:10] <huats> good morning all
[10:12] <geser> Hi huats
[11:19] <norsetto> hello all
[11:20] <BugMaN> hi norsetto :)
[11:20] <norsetto> BugMaN: Hola buggieman
[11:22] <BugMaN> norsetto: i'm from rome like you :)
[11:23] <norsetto> BugMaN: he, nobody is perfect
[11:23] <dholbach> good morning romans!
[11:23] <dholbach> :-)
[11:23] <BugMaN> dholbach: hi! :)
[11:23] <norsetto> dholbach: ave
[11:26] <norsetto> dholbach: perhaps I'm missing something (as usual), but, why is a 2nd ack needed for pyelemental?
[11:27] <dholbach> norsetto: oh, there is no need for that
[11:27] <dholbach> excusez-moi
[11:27] <norsetto> dholbach: de nada :-) btw, should I send the email about the mentoring meeting?
[11:28] <dholbach> yeah, great idea
[11:29] <huats> hi dholbach
[11:29] <huats> hi norsetto
[11:29] <dholbach> hey huats
[11:29] <norsetto> huats: bonjour le maitre des petite bestioles
[11:30] <huats> norsetto: why little stuffs?
[11:30] <huats> :-)
[11:30] <norsetto> huats: cafards ....
[11:30] <norsetto> huats: its kind of cool actually
[11:30] <norsetto> huats: like Master of the Flies but cooler
[11:30] <huats> norsetto: oh
[11:31] <huats> norsetto: it is a brand new aspect for me, but I trust you :-)
[11:31] <norsetto> huats: I think you have to dress in black too, dunno if your gf will like it
[11:32] <persia> Is the mentoring meeting separate from all other meetings?
[11:32] <huats> norsetto: not really sure either... I have to ask her :-)
[11:32] <huats> btw when is the mentoring meeting ?
[11:32] <norsetto> persia: you mean from a progress meeting?
[11:33] <norsetto> huats: just sent out an email, we propose to attach it to the next MOTU meeting
[11:33] <huats> ok
[11:33] <huats> that is a good idea
[11:33] <huats> especially since the next MOTU meeting is at a good time frame :-)
[11:33] <persia> norsetto: In the last MOTU meeting, you mentioned something about discussing the status and plans for mentoring.  A few minutes ago, you mentioned an email about a mentoring meeting, and I just wondered if it was different han the next MOTU meeting.
[11:33] <norsetto> persia: no, its the same and very one
[11:33] <persia> Ah.  Yes.  I type slow.  That sounds ideal :)
[11:34] <norsetto> persia: you may type slowly, but look at that! Not even a tiny typo, I'm ashamed :-)
[11:35] <persia> norsetto: Umm..  e.g. s/then/han/ ?
[11:35] <norsetto> persia: now, don't spoil it by pointing it out that there is a typo
[11:35] <persia> Err.  Rather than/han
[11:46] <dholbach> persia: I created http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/WikiMaintenance
[11:47] <dholbach> persia: it'll hopefully help to keep the wiki in shape after the transitions have happened
[11:47] <norsetto> dholbach: hmmmm, is there a way to add another email address to an ubuntu mailing list?
[11:47] <dholbach> norsetto: I don't understand what you're trying to do? you want to subscribe somebody to it?
[11:48] <norsetto> dholbach: no, I foolishly sent the mentoring email with my ubuntu.com address, so it is now waiting for moderations since the list doesn't (of course) know norsetto@ubuntu.com
[11:49] <dholbach> norsetto: I'll auto-accept norsetto@ubuntu.com from now on, if that's what you like
[11:49] <dholbach> I think it's cool if you send with your @ubuntu.com address
[11:49] <persia> dholbach: I like the idea, but I'm thinking that a little more description would be useful.  I'm committed for the next couple days, but I'll try to put together some text to guide authors (e.g. If you want to add something to this TODO, write it up and add it to the category).  The idea being that if we describe best wiki management processes clearly, we'll have a better chance of identifying cruft.
[11:50] <norsetto> dholbach: ok, pls. do (its both the ubuntu-motu and ubuntu-motu-mentors lists)
[11:50] <dholbach> persia: absolutely agreed
[11:50] <dholbach> norsetto: alrighty
[11:50] <persia> That reminds me: who do I need to poke to enable an @ubuntu.com address?
[11:50] <dholbach> that should work automatically?
[11:50] <norsetto> persia: in theory yeah, but I had to poke some guy in launchpad
[11:51] <persia> dholbach: That's what I've read.  I haven't tested in a few weeks, but it wasn't working in September.
[11:51] <persia> norsetto: Could you email or /msg me the identity (or do you mean #lanuchpad?)
[11:51] <dholbach> persia: #launchpad then :-/
[11:51] <persia> Ah.  Thanks.
[11:51] <norsetto> persia: yes, #launchpad
[11:52] <norsetto> persia: let me check who is there, I might remember his name if I see it
[11:53] <dholbach> norsetto: done
[11:53] <persia> norsetto: No need.  I'll just grab whichever LP dev can process my request when I have more time to visit the channel.
[11:53] <norsetto> dholbach: dnk
[11:53] <norsetto> persia: good luck .....
[11:54] <Fujitsu> white: Fix for CVE-2007-5226 uploaded to Gutsy.
[11:54] <ubotu> irc_server.c in dircproxy 1.2.0 and earlier allows remote attackers to cause a denial of service (segmentation fault) via an ACTION command without a parameter, which triggers a NULL pointer dereference, as demonstrated using a blank /me message from irssi. (http://cve.mitre.org/cgi-bin/cvename.cgi?name=CVE-2007-5226)
[11:56] <norsetto> Fujitsu: you are the mplayer guru, ain't you?
[11:56] <Fujitsu> norsetto: I have been the one sorta maintaining it of late, yes.
[11:57] <norsetto> Fujitsu: I have a patch (nothing serious, some 100 lines of code)
[11:57] <Fujitsu> norsetto: What does it do?
[11:57] <norsetto> Fujitsu: :-) seriously, how is it working with compiz?
[11:58] <Fujitsu> Works OK for me, but doesn't use compiz's video plugin yet.
[11:58] <philn> hi
[11:58] <Fujitsu> Hi philn.
[11:58] <norsetto> Fujitsu: I'm asking since I stumbled upon bug 150246, whcich was erroneously assigned to gnome-mplayer
[11:58] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150246 in mplayer "gmplayer playing in a collapsed window and causing X restart" [Medium,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/150246
[11:58] <persia> norsetto: I'm not entirely comfortable dedicating the MOTU meeting to mentoring: there's at least the fixed agenda which should also be covered.  Do you anticipate this would be an issue?
[11:59] <norsetto> persia: its attached to that meeting, the MOTU meeting will be held as normal
[11:59] <persia> norsetto: Ah.  Great.  Don't forget to add it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Meetings
[12:00] <norsetto> persia: but thats just for the MOTU meeting?
[12:01] <persia> norsetto: Right.  If mentoring is to be a topic of the MOTU Meeting, it should appear as an agenda item.  If the recent meetings are a good example, it will likely be the main item (aside from the fixed items).
[12:02] <norsetto> persia: our idea was to have it after the MOTU meeting, as a separate meeting (attached to the MOTU meeting to allow most people to partecipate)
[12:02] <persia> Or am I confused, and the other meeting is separately scheduled at a very similar time?
[12:03] <persia> Ah.  Right.  Nevermind.  I might advocate inclusion in the MOTU meeting, as if there's no other agenda, the meeting will likely be dispersed before an hour has passed, but I'll leave it to Australians to complain about reconvening if it's a bad time.
[12:05] <norsetto> persia: 12:00 UTC should be 22:00 local time in oz? At elast, the civilised (* cough * * cough *) part ot it
[12:06] <persia> norsetto: Either 22:00 or earlier.  It's the 0:00 that might be a problem (but I won't speak for them: I have no idea when they sleep)
[12:09] <persia> ajmitch: The last meeting was supposed to be at a civilised time for you.  Perhaps we need another 04:00 UTC?
[12:09] <ajmitch> persia: doesn't worry me anymore
[12:10] <asisak> pkern, ScottK: do you still need my .desktop "expertise" :)
[12:11] <norsetto> asisak: ceferino is waiting for you :-)
[12:11] <asisak> norsetto: bug number? :)
[12:11] <asisak> Hey MOTUs BTW :)
[12:11] <norsetto> asisak: no wait, it has been disposed already (good old bddebian .....)
[12:12] <norsetto> asisak: either that or dholbach in his weekly cleansing frenzy ;-)
[12:13] <dholbach> norsetto, asisak: hmmm?
[12:13] <norsetto> dholbach: sorry Master ... we were just chatting you know .....
[12:13] <dholbach> ah right ;-)
[12:14] <asisak> Actually Norsetto is talking nonsense. As usual.
[12:14] <asisak> :)
[12:16] <huats> asisak: I couldn't have say better
[12:16] <huats> :-)
[12:19] <norsetto> pff, yougsters, no respect for the older generation
[12:38] <Fujitsu> I think we're going to need several people to go through all the apport crashes and check/unprivatise them at some point... that'll take a while :(
[01:05] <ScottK> asisak: I don't think so.
[01:08] <ScottK> dholbach: I won't fixed bug 150740 because it specifically said for Gutsy.  Later made no sense.
[01:08] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150740 in galculator "[Hardy]  Galculator v1.3.1 is out" [Wishlist,In progress]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/150740
[01:08] <asisak> okay
[01:09] <dholbach> ScottK: ok, I marked it as later; it can still go into hardy
[01:10] <ScottK> dholbach: I don't think that makes any sense, but whatever.
[01:10] <dholbach> why?
[01:11] <dholbach> that way it's not wasted work
[01:11] <StevenK> It might end up being anyway. Hardy won't open for at least another 2 weeks, at which point anything could have happened.
[01:15] <ScottK> dholbach: If it's for a package that will autosync in Hardy it's wasted work no matter how you mark the bug.
[01:15] <dholbach> it won't
[01:15] <dholbach> it has ubuntu changes
[01:15] <dholbach> quite a lot of them
[01:20] <ScottK> OK.  Then it'll still need a merge which, IIRC, wasn't attached to the bug either.
[01:20] <ScottK> Nevermind about that last bit.
[01:24] <ScottK> asisak: If you are interested in something .desktop related, one of the Automatix devs posted their Gutsy Automatix source, http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=45694&d=1191877399, I see they are planning on shipping a checkgmail .desktop.  Is it better than ours?
[01:24] <asisak> Actually I am quite busy now.
[01:24] <asisak> But I can check it later.
[01:28] <ScottK> asisak: No rush.
[01:28] <asisak> ScottK: sure
[01:30] <ScottK> dholbach: No, the galculator bug wasn't subscribed to motu-uvf.  minghua mentioned it here.  He's filed enough UVFe's that he clearly knows they are required.  I'm not sure if he was hoping someone would just upload it or not.
[01:31] <dholbach> ScottK: right
[01:56] <bluekuja> norsetto_limbo: you there?
[02:03] <pkern> norsetto_limbo: I fixed ceferino. o_O
[02:06] <persia> dholbach: Just noticed your Contributing change.  Does the "at least two release cycles" rule of thumb actually apply?
[02:09] <ScottK> dholbach: I take it from the mentoring meeting that it's a foregone conclusion that the current mentoring process is better than the old way and should be continued?
[02:11] <bluekuja> ScottK: can you take a look at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xawtv/+bug/150905
[02:11] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150905 in xawtv "Merge xawtv 395.dfsg.1-6 from Debian unstable" [Wishlist,Confirmed] 
[02:11] <bluekuja> ScottK: pitti told me it needs motu-sru scrutiny
[02:11] <ScottK> bluekuja: Did you upload it already?
[02:12] <bluekuja> ScottK: yeah
[02:12] <bluekuja> ScottK: it's just a new debian revision, mere bug fixes
[02:12] <ScottK> Actually he meant motu-uvf (motu-sru is defunct) and since it's just a new revision (not a new upstream) it doesn't actually.
[02:12] <ScottK> bluekuja: Yes.  Uploading was the right thing to do.
[02:12] <bluekuja> ScottK: yeah, I dont understand his message then
[02:13] <ScottK> It was more along the lines of "That's in Universe, go bug the Universe people." than exactly what needed doing I think.
[02:13] <bluekuja> hehe
[02:14] <ScottK> It looks like a good merge to have uploaded to me (based on the description).
[02:14] <pkern> libcommons-modeler-java still isn't synced. *cough*
[02:14] <bluekuja> ScottK: yup, fixes some odd things that made the package unusable
[02:14] <bluekuja> ScottK: we'll have to wait for a distro manager approvation
[02:14] <bluekuja> and then it's in
[02:14] <ScottK> Yes.  That generally happens pretty quickly.
[02:14] <ScottK> pkern: What was the bug #?
[02:15] <bluekuja> yup, that's why I was pinging pitti
[02:15] <bluekuja> :)
[02:15] <persia> ScottK: New mentoring?  Old mentoring?  Did something change while I was away?
[02:15] <ScottK> bluekuja: Ne need to ping him.
[02:15] <bluekuja> ScottK: yeah, gonna wait
[02:16] <ScottK> pkern: Riddell is doing it now.
[02:17] <ScottK> persia: I don't recall what changed when but we have this process now where people get assigned mentors.
[02:17] <pkern> ScottK: Thanks.
[02:17] <ScottK> persia: It is optional.
[02:18] <ScottK> see/seem
[02:18] <persia> ScottK: Thanks for the confirmation.  Things seem to be the same as they were.
[02:19] <ScottK> OK.  Didn't recall exactly how that standing up and your vacation aligned.
[02:19] <persia> Regarding "doing good", I think some people are more comfortable getting started with someone holding their hand.  It requires interface to the non-mentor model before one has the community backing to succeed.
[02:20] <ScottK> persia: Could well be.  From the outside it's really hard to tell if it's worth the trouble or not.
[02:20] <persia> ScottK: I was actually assigned thee mentees.  One left due to intern committment, one is still active (although only lightly: big plans for early Hardy), and one disappeared in mid-July.
[02:21] <ScottK> OK.
[02:22] <persia> ScottK: I'd say it's a mixed bag.  Some people find it helpful as an introduction.  Personally, I think there are two useful phases, with 4-6 months of relative inactivity between: an initial introduction to the processes and working as a contributor, and help putting together an action and interest plan when determining if joining MOTU is appropriate.
[02:22] <persia> On the other hand, the idea that one should have a mentor detracts from the self-motivation that is so useful.
[02:23] <zul> there is also a steep learning curve that alot of people probably get put off by
[02:23] <ScottK> Which is, I think, a useful kind of discussion to have about the program.
[02:23] <persia> I thought that was the topic of the meeting.
[02:23] <ScottK> zul: I think starting people off with make a new package is a mistake that is a large cause of that.
[02:24] <ScottK> persia: As I read the agenda the viability/desireability of continuing the program is assumed.
[02:25] <persia> ScottK: I don't think the continuation of a mentoring program is up for debate, but the meaning of that program, and the management thereof seems to be.  I'd argue that a little hand-holding isn't bad, as long as it's optional, and everyone understands what it means.
[02:25] <ScottK> persia: My point exactly.
[02:26] <ScottK> Personally, having run into people who thought they couldn't do stuff because they didn't have a mentor assigned, I'm not convinced.
[02:26] <persia> I'm really not sure about the costs.  Pre-mentoring, there were a number of people who stayed in-channel, and provided lots of help to new people, essentially doing the same thing.  I consider "introduction" over when the mentee is an active participant in-channel.
[02:27] <ScottK> But that's OK.  I think there's a lot of convoluted, inefficient process stuff going on and I doubt it's going to get better.
[02:27] <persia> ScottK: Ah.  Yes.  That's an issue.  I think the documentation needs to be much more clear.  I also think that separating mentoring into two phases (and encouraging different mentors) would go a long way towards dispelling that belief.
[02:27] <ScottK> persia: The costs are MOTUs investing time in management overhead, people not contributing because they don't think they are official enough, and encouraging an environment where people expect spoon feeding.
[02:28] <ScottK> Except for the very few that wouldn't speak up and get started without it, I don't really see what it gains us.
[02:30] <persia> For cost #1, I'd say it's a wash: the management overhead is probably lower than the previous opportunity cost of people emailing random MOTUs and asking for help.  For cost #2, I think that better presentation could help, and for cost #3, I don't see much difference between assigned spoon-feeding and getting answers in-channel: in either case, it must be made clear that those who explain aren't actually going to do it.
[02:31] <pkern> I IRC presence mandatory?
[02:31] <pkern> s/I/Is/
[02:31] <persia> On the other hand, the mid-gutsy model, where some people just sponsored, and REVU'd, without coding, wasn't very satisfying.  I think there's a balance somewhere.
[02:31] <ScottK> pkern: No, but it's where almost all the coordination happens, so it's hard to keep up without it.
[02:31] <persia> pkern: I think so.  Debian is based on email.  Ubuntu is faster because of IRC (or at least, that was one of the arguments back in the noname days)
[02:32] <persia> ScottK: Are you sure?  I did some things while I was away, but I'd argue "away" is the right phrase for not having a presence on IRC.
[02:33] <ScottK> Sure about not being mandatory?
[02:33] <persia> ScottK: Yes.
[02:33] <ScottK> There's no rule.
[02:33] <pkern> That would suck because IRC is known to eat time.
[02:33] <ScottK> It's just hard to know what's going on with the rest of the distro.  If what you are doing doesn't require that, then it's fine.
[02:33] <ScottK> pkern: Agreed.
[02:35] <ScottK> pkern: Your sync is done.  Still need to wait for an RM to accept it into the archive.
[02:39] <broonie> ScottK: The spoon feeding thing can be dealt with if the mentor sets up good expectations about the level of handholding.
[02:39] <broonie> That does require work on the part of the mentor, though.
[02:39] <ScottK> Right.  IMO the ones that need the spoon feeding aren't going to do much after you quit, but that's just me.
[02:40] <persia> broonie: It's more than that: it's a general model.  For a while, we were just nitpicking about things, and it would have been faster just to do it (and probably taught the contributors more).  It's about philosophy as well as expectations.
[02:40] <broonie> Yes. You can really help the people who don't need spoon feeding.
[02:40] <persia> ScottK: I'd disagree.  The first time I patched vegastrike, a MOTU practically wrote the patch for me.
[02:41] <zul> hobbsee not around yet?
[02:41] <broonie> persia: I think that's just the same thing I'm saying, expressed a different way.
[02:41] <persia> broonie: Possibly.  I get caught up in semantics.
[02:44] <ScottK> Or if it's minor, ... and I fixed them and uploaded it.  Next time ...
[02:44] <persia> broonie: That's not always enough.  MOTU/Contributing explains exactly how to run lintian and linda, and still 90% of the time, requests for package reviews have not been checked.
[02:44] <persia> ScottK: I like that better.
[02:44] <broonie> persia: I know. :(
[02:45] <persia> Why?
[02:46] <ScottK> Because he's been ponging in and out of the channel every two minutes for the last several hours.
[02:46] <broonie> That's where being clear about what you're doing comes in - making it clear that you're not there to run the tools for them, for example.
[02:46] <pkern> irssi to the rescue
[02:47] <pkern> I still run "the tools" on every sponsored Debian upload. ):
[02:47] <ScottK> pkern: Thanks.  Works in Konversation too.
[02:47] <broonie> (note that I've not tried mentoring MOTU but I'm assuming the problems are similar to things like Debian.)
[02:48] <fernando> moin all
[02:48] <ScottK> Yes, although the spoon feeding expectation here is substantially higher I think.
[02:48] <persia> broonie: It's a little different, because new contributors are (or should be) encouraged to work on existing packages, rather than new ones, but otherwise similar.
[02:48] <persia> And, yes, there's a much greater expectation of support.
[02:48] <broonie> Yes - the reviewing part is the same.
[02:49] <pkern> We filter more requests for sponsorship simply because they are badly made up.
[02:49] <persia> broonie: Somewhat.  We do a lot of per-bug review, similar to non-DD contributions to some Debian teams, as well.
[02:58] <ScottK> Good evening Hobbsee.
[02:58] <zul> hey Hobbsee
[02:59] <dholbach> ScottK: no, no decision has been taken? how do you come to that conclusion?
[02:59] <dholbach> ScottK: the whole point of the meeting is to find out more before we can decide anything
[02:59] <dholbach> ScottK: what "old mentoring" are you talking about?
[03:00] <dholbach> ScottK: which "new mentoring"?
[03:00] <dholbach> persia: which contributing page? which rule of thumg?
[03:00] <dholbach> thumb
[03:00] <ScottK> dholbach: The way the adenda is written it seems to presume the new program will continue.
[03:00] <ScottK> dholbach: Old way was informal without the bureacracy.
[03:00] <persia> dholbach: w.u.c/MOTU/Contributing: "Once you've contributed widely over at least two release cycles, and a couple members of ubuntu-dev have suggested you should, please consider [:UbuntuDevelopers:applying]  to join the [:MOTU:MOTU]  team."
[03:01] <ScottK> It's definitely faster than that in many cases.
[03:01] <dholbach> ScottK: we had the discussion before: it's not mandatory at all to have a mentor
[03:01] <ScottK> dholbach: Agreed.  I think that people don't understand that.
[03:01] <dholbach> ScottK: we are trying to find a way for people who don't know where to start etc etc; it's hard to keep track of mentorees and people need guidelines
[03:01] <persia> ScottK: it wasn't really between dapper and feisty, but yes, it appears to be now
[03:01] <dholbach> ScottK: a lot of people do and don't have a mentor
[03:02] <ScottK> dholbach: I've run into people who thought they couldn't contribute because they hadn't been assigned a mentor.  Not many, but it's happened.
[03:02] <dholbach> persia: I did not do that change - I don't think it should be on that page
[03:02] <persia> ScottK: I think you have a good point: come to the meeting, and let's all determine a good way to present it to all parties.
[03:02] <dholbach> ScottK: we should clarify that
[03:03] <ScottK> dholbach: I think it's a risk inherent in the existence of the formal process.
[03:03] <dholbach> ScottK: please try to not assume that the people who run the mentoring are only there to make things more complicated :-/
[03:03] <persia> dholbach: Last changed by dholbach2 :)  Would you mind putting the right text in, with your council hat on?
[03:03] <ScottK> dholbach: I don't think that's the goal.  I think it MAY be the effect.  I'm not judging.
[03:05] <dholbach> it'll be good to have your input in the meeting
[03:06] <dholbach> I was just a bit ... surprised ... that you assumed we had already decided something before we asked for input in an announced meeting
[03:09] <dholbach> persia: the bit was added to the page by the 'initial draft' commit
[03:09] <dholbach> persia: but I'll change it no problem
[03:10] <persia> dholbach:Oh, yes.  I put the two weeks there, but I don't speak for anyone but me.  I'm mostly concerned because you edited next to it, and I wasn't sure if you endorsed it, but it might appear that way from the logs.  Thanks for updating it to match current practice.
[03:10] <persia> s/weeks/releases/
[03:10] <ScottK> dholbach: The way the agenda is written, it reads like continuing the program is assumed.
[03:11] <ScottK> At least to me.
[03:11] <ScottK> I will come to the meeting if I'm available.
[03:11] <dholbach> ok great
[03:12] <ScottK> dholbach: One data point along these lines, when I recently suggested to someone that I thought they were ready to apply for MOTU, the response I got was that their mentor hadn't told them they were ready and so they couldn't be.
[03:13] <persia> ScottK: re: fluxbox.  Debian just merged it, but given the publishing schedule, I won't be able to process the new revision for ~44-46 hours.  I'll chase it then, but if you find a willing volunteer anytime after the next Debian publish, and then, please feel free to share it :)
[03:13] <ScottK> persia: OK.
[03:13] <Fujitsu> persia: We can always grab it from incoming.
[03:14] <persia> Fujitsu: Please share: I could process now, if I had the debian package.
[03:14] <ScottK> dholbach: Do you know someone that could look at Bug #150765 and turn it into a UVFe?  At a glance going from and RC to a final with bug fixes would be a good thing.
[03:14] <Fujitsu> persia: incoming.debian.org
[03:14] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150765 in fluxbox "WISHLIST: Fluxbox1.0.0 Final included in Gutsy" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/150765
[03:14] <Fujitsu> It should be there.
[03:14] <dholbach> ScottK: what I see is: some new contributors have a need for dedicated one-on-one mentoring, we have people who are willing to do it, norsetto_limbo, highvoltage and I are trying to find a way to make it 1) not clash with existing processes/workflows, 2) the least painful way (by adding guidance, etc.)
[03:15] <dholbach> we need to look at the whole problem and try to find a good way for it
[03:15] <persia> Fujitsu: No.  Perhaps a run just happened, and I didn't find the right status page.  Thanks for the pointer: this will likely make me more productive in the future.
[03:15] <ScottK> dholbach: I'm curious to know how many MOTUs this makes that wouldn't have made it anyway.
[03:16] <dholbach> ScottK: I've experienced a lot people who were very motivated because they were encouraged by people who took the time to talk them through things in one-on-one conversations
[03:16] <Hobbsee> oh, fudge.  i forgot to put LongPointyStick in.
[03:16] <Fujitsu> persia: It only runs every 24 hours, and hasn't run within the last 12, but the look of things. So...
[03:16] <dholbach> if they would have made it without that, who knows
[03:16] <dholbach> new contributors ask for it
[03:16] <ScottK> dholbach: Agreed and I've done that lots without a process.
[03:16] <dholbach> just giving them a bunch of links and tell them to write to ubuntu-motu@ does not work for everybody
[03:16] <highvoltage> (not that I can claim to be 1/100th as cool as dholbach or norsetto)
[03:17] <dholbach> ScottK: and I appreciate that
[03:17] <persia> ScottK: Sure, but it's annoying to get email from an interested person who doesn't IRC who wants to help when one is busy.  Better to have organisation to spread the load.
[03:17] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Apparently I was wrong to Won't Fix Kmos's non-UVFe for Gutsy, I should have taken the time to edit the bug to be for Hardy.
[03:17] <Hobbsee> ScottK: right.  i think i did with one of his earlier
[03:17] <ScottK> persia: Mailing list works for that.
[03:18] <dholbach> but it doesn't work for everybody, some people are intimidated
[03:18] <Fujitsu> ScottK: I liked your succinct response to that.
[03:18] <ScottK> Hobbsee: It gets down to him making more work for me which is not high on my list.
[03:18] <ScottK> Fujitsu: Thanks.  Unforntunately it was "wrong".
[03:18] <persia> ScottK: Perhaps, but I still received some personal inquiries pre-mentoring, and don't know (and others likely received more, as I wasn't MOTU when I started getting them)
[03:18] <Hobbsee> ScottK: then unsubscribe u-u-s, and motu-uvf, and he can stay subscribed to the bug.
[03:18] <dholbach> ScottK: come on
[03:18] <Hobbsee> but it's much easier to mark as WONTFIX, as he likely wont ever action the bug for hardy anyway
[03:18] <ScottK> dholbach: My threshold with him is zero.
[03:19] <dholbach> hey guys, you know which effect it has on people if you just close their bugs
[03:19] <ScottK> dholbach: That would be benificial in this case.
[03:19] <dholbach> "this is hardy material" would have been a comment that would have had a different effect
[03:19] <philn> i'm submitter of #150893 and #150929 that are UVF requests for both pigment and elisa packages. If you have any question don't hesitate to ask
[03:19] <Fujitsu> dholbach: It /is/ Kmos...
[03:19] <persia> dholbach: Not everyone responds well to encouragement.  Some people need a little stick with their carrot.
[03:19] <dholbach> persia: right
[03:20] <dholbach> ScottK: so what about fluxbox? what shall I do with the bug?
[03:20] <Hobbsee> kmos and shirish, it's right to close their bugs - they're actually more productive.
[03:20] <Fujitsu> Ah yes, Shirish.
[03:20] <persia> dholbach: Nevermind.  Fujitsu has lead me to sources to let me do it.
[03:20] <Fujitsu> He does like to file bugs request new upstream versions.
[03:20] <Fujitsu> persia: Oh, you found them?
[03:21] <Fujitsu> Ah, they're published.
[03:21] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: i havent seen anything from him in a while
[03:21] <persia> Fujitsu: Not yet, but at least I know they were caught by the last run.  Now I just have to find a mirror that has updated since then (as I can't get to ftp-master)
[03:21] <dholbach> I just shared my view on the bug, I did not say "don't do this ever again, or else..."
[03:21] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: but regular dosings of me calling him an idiot *does* make him more sensible, and thinking a little more.
[03:21] <dholbach> I have sympathy with what you went through
[03:22] <ScottK> dholbach: I hear you saying that, but I don't see it in your actions.
[03:22] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: of course, the fact that he wants me to yell at him, and beat him up, due to who i am is just sick...but still.
[03:22] <ScottK> Apparently I'm supposed to deal with infinite amounts of it.
[03:22] <dholbach> was that bug on the motu-uvf list?
[03:22] <ScottK> dholbach: No, but it was on UUS.
[03:22] <rexbron> Question: If an app needs to compile against packages in multiverse, does that bar it from inclution from universe?
[03:22] <ScottK> rexbron: Yes.
[03:22] <dholbach> Ok.
[03:22] <ScottK> It goes in Multiverse.
[03:22] <persia> rexbron: Yes.  The package must be multiverse
[03:23] <rexbron> persia: ug.
[03:23] <rexbron> the situation is as follows:
[03:23] <persia> rexbron: Why ugh?
[03:23] <dholbach> ScottK: I'll mail him now - he should have known better
[03:23] <Hobbsee> dholbach: they say that every time.
[03:23] <dholbach> Hobbsee: who says what?
[03:24] <rexbron> persia: afaik, Ubuntu Studio's policies it not to ship any multiverse packages by default
[03:24] <Hobbsee> dholbach: that he should know better.
[03:24] <ScottK> And yet he doesn't.
[03:24] <persia> rexbron: That's everyone's policy.  Some of that is illegal in some places.
[03:24] <Hobbsee> and that $person will $talk to him so that he becomes sane.
[03:24] <rexbron> persia: i see
[03:24] <ScottK> I will give him credit for stopping spamming backports after I slammed him just once.
[03:25] <dholbach> ScottK: what do you mean?
[03:25] <persia> rexbron: Is there a way the package can be built without multiverse?  Suggests is permitted.
[03:25] <ScottK> He started filing a bunch of backports that were, ummm, not all well thought out.  I pointed out that maybe we didn't want to backport the whole archive and he stopped.
[03:26] <dholbach> Ok
[03:26] <rexbron> persia: openlibraries is for harware accelerated graphics processing, it can be built without nVidia's cg-tools package and nVidia gelato, but afaik the performace benifits are negated
[03:26] <persia> rexbron: Do the performance benefits come back if the nVidia packages are later installed?
[03:27] <rexbron> persia: I am currently trying to build the openlibs :)
[03:27] <rexbron> persia: so I will find out sooner or later
[03:28] <persia> rexbron: Understood.  If you can build them in such a way that they dynamically link against either nVidia or mesa, depending on which is installed, you can depend on mesa, and the user can get the benefits if they install nVidia, it would result in a working package suitable for universe.
[03:28] <rexbron> cool
[03:29] <ScottK> philn: I'll have a look at your bugs.
[03:30] <persia> Anyone have any suggestions for an agressively up-to-date debian source mirror?
[03:30] <philn> ScottK: thanks!
[03:38] <ScottK> philn: The bug fixing is good, but there is lots of other stuff in there too.  How much testing on Gutsy has this had?
[03:39] <ScottK> persia: I can try and grab it for you.
[03:39] <ScottK> Let me look.
[03:40] <philn> ScottK: Elisa 0.3.2 got a bunch of improvements to work well on Gutsy, most Elisa developers also use Gutsy on a daily basis
[03:40] <persia> ScottK: I've got it.  Issues with http vs ftp on incoming were confusing me.
[03:40] <ScottK> persia: OK.  I won't pull it down then.
[03:40] <philn> ScottK: we fixed XDG-user-dirs, and some hal/dbus issues we encountered with 0.3.1
[03:41] <ScottK> philn: If you could add some discussion in the bugs about the testing that was done, that would be helpful.
[03:41] <philn> ScottK: ok, will do so
[03:43] <norsetto> bluekuja: I'm now, whats up?
[03:43] <bluekuja> norsetto: I've seen your mail in fridge-devel
[03:43] <norsetto> bluekuja: you will be there I hope?
[03:44] <bluekuja> norsetto: you should post only if you are sure of the date/time
[03:44] <bluekuja> norsetto: yeah, I hope so
[03:44] <bluekuja> :)
[03:44] <bluekuja> norsetto: decided to include it inside MOTU meeting?
[03:44] <norsetto> bluekuja: I can't impose a date/time, I can only propose
[03:45] <norsetto> bluekuja: no, not inside, just after
[03:45] <bluekuja> norsetto: yeah, talk with others, and then send a mail with the right date/hour
[03:45] <norsetto> bluekuja: ok, you take care of this fridge thingie?
[03:46] <bluekuja> norsetto: yup
[03:46] <bluekuja> norsetto: but please talk with every reception admin
[03:46] <ScottK> norsetto: Why is it not in the MOTU meeting?  Seems to me it's a general MOTU process issue?
[03:46] <norsetto> bluekuja: good, keep it on hold then
[03:47] <bluekuja> norsetto: I will, let me know what the final decision will be at the end
[03:47] <norsetto> scottk: becuase it deserve a dedicated discussion I think
[03:47] <bluekuja> norsetto: and when completely sure post a confirmation mail
[03:47] <bluekuja> so I can add the event
[03:47] <bluekuja> ;)
[03:47] <norsetto> bluekuja: will do
[03:47] <ScottK> I'm not sure how the 5 minute wrap up of standing topics would detract.
[03:47] <bluekuja> norsetto: thanks
[03:48] <norsetto> ScottK: I don't know about that scott, I can only presume
[03:48] <persia> norsetto: How long do you imagine the discussion requiring?
[03:48] <norsetto> persia: since you discussed it all already this afternoon, 5 min?
[03:48] <norsetto> persia: seriously, I think it might be long
[03:48] <persia> norsetto: Um.  I have at least 10 minutes of things to say :)
[03:49] <ScottK> norsetto: dholbach will no doubt roll his eyes when he reads this, but the main purpose of MOTU meetings is to discuss how MOTU works.  If the mentoring process is part of how MOTU works, then it ought to be in the MOTU meeting.  If this is a special meeting just for the people who are involved in the mentors process, then fine.
[03:49] <persia> norsetto: OK.  I suppose I should be glad it will be my Friday night.
[03:50] <norsetto> scottK: no, its not just for people involved with mentoring
[03:50] <norsetto> scottk: which you do btw, just not officially
[03:50] <ScottK> I thought not, so I think it should be on the agenda for a MOTU meeting (it woudn't be unreasonable to limit other topics, although that hasn't been a problem recently).
[03:51] <norsetto> scottK: I thought it deserved a space on its own, but, personally, I'm happy if you guys decide it to be part of the regular MOTU meeting
[03:51] <persia> Another argument for adding it to the MOTU agenda is that people have already made arrangements to be available then.  Adding another hour may be difficult for those who find themselves in a workplace at that hour, or wish to sleep.
[03:51] <dholbach> I agree with norsetto
[03:51] <dholbach> it's going to be a longer discussion
[03:52] <ScottK> norsetto: I know.  That's part of why I don't like having a separate process.
[03:52] <persia> Ah.  If it's going to be extra-long, perhaps a different meeting is better.  The audience is limited, but the results may be more useful.
[03:52] <dholbach> ScottK: hm?
[03:52] <ScottK> persia: I don't think the audience should be limited.  This concerns all of us.
[03:53] <dholbach> ScottK: it was sent to ubuntu-motu{,-mentors}
[03:53] <dholbach> ScottK: I wouldn't call that limiting the audience
[03:53] <ScottK> dholbach: I think having "Mentors" is a distraction from all of us mentoring.
[03:53] <persia> ScottK: I'd agree with that, but a smaller audience developing a proposal for review at the following MOTU meeting might be a better use of time.
[03:53] <ScottK> dholbach: That was a response to persia's comment about limited audience.
[03:53] <dholbach> ScottK: Ok, let's discuss this in the meeting itself
[03:54] <ScottK> persia: I think this is meant to be a general review of how the process is working, so it ought to be general.
[03:55] <ScottK> dholbach: That's fine.
[03:55] <persia> ScottK: Perhaps.  I don't think process detail arguments are interesting to everyone (you and I are vocal exceptions), but I agree everyone should be involved in the decision to adopt.
[03:56] <philn> ScottK: ok i added new comments on the bugs
[03:57] <ScottK> philn: I just acked them.  Thanks.
[03:57] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Got a minute for motu-uvf work?
[03:57] <Hobbsee> ScottK: perhaps
[03:57] <ScottK> Bug #150893 Bug #150929
[03:57] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150893 in pigment "Pigment needs update to 0.3.2 (from 0.3.1)" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/150893
[03:58] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150929 in elisa "Elisa needs update to 0.3.2" [Wishlist,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/150929
[03:58] <ScottK> pkern: I asked pitti, but I guess he's got better things to do.
[03:58] <persia> pkern: Have patience.  Also, did you link the CVEs to the tomcat bug?  That tends to add focus.
[03:58] <pkern> persia: It's not about Tomcat.
[03:59] <persia> pkern: I thought you were waiting for the tomcat dependency sync.  My apologies.
[03:59] <pkern> i.e. tomcat isn't referenced anywhere.
[03:59] <ScottK> This is the prerequisite for Tomcat.
[04:00] <ScottK> persia: Mostly stuff's been getting accepted pretty quickly, so if it's not, I'd imagine their hair is on fire over something.
[04:01] <persia> ScottK: True.  It's not actually been that long.
[04:01] <DaveMorris> Hi, I've got my package where I create my shared objects with foo.so.1.0.0 however I'm unsure as to how I get it to install with sym links, pointing from foo.so to foo.so.1.0.0 Can someone point me to some documentation on how to do it please?
[04:02] <persia> DaveMorris: http://www.netfort.gr.jp/~dancer/column/libpkg-guide/libpkg-guide.html
[04:02] <DaveMorris> thanks
[04:02] <Hobbsee> ScottK: both fine by me, please upload
[04:04] <DaveMorris> one last question.  It contains 5 share objects, and the soname's don't match the package name.  Is this ok, or does it need to be broken down into 5 smaller packages?
[04:04] <ScottK> philn: How soon will those be in Debian?
[04:05] <philn> ScottK: Loc Minier needs to review my changes on the package, he told me he'd do it one evening this week or this weekend
[04:05] <persia> DaveMorris: It depends on the content.  If the libraries are useful independently, it should generate 10 small binary packages (libfoo + libfoo-dev).  If they are only support libraries for each other, and there is only one or two real clients, one package is acceptable (but not preferred).
[04:06] <ScottK> philn: That may be to late for Gutsy.
[04:06] <ScottK> philn: Can you prepare -0ubuntu1 versions for Gutsy and upload them to REVU?
[04:08] <ScottK> doko: How is it looking for your ia32-libs upload today?
[04:08] <philn> ScottK: yes, I can prepare them. do I require sponsorship for upload?
[04:09] <ScottK> Yes.  I'll look at them today if you can get them to REVU.
[04:09] <ScottK> philn: Have you uploaded to REVU before?
[04:09] <philn> no
[04:09] <ScottK> !REVU | philn
[04:09] <ubotu> philn: REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
[04:10] <ScottK> That'll tell you what needs doing so you can.
[04:10] <philn> ok, thx
[04:10] <ScottK> The key sync takes a long time to run, so do that first (it'll take longer than getting your packages prepared).
[04:11] <philn> my GPG key is already in.. I registered for PPA few weeks ago
[04:11] <ScottK> philn: OK.  You'll also need to joint the https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-universe-contributors/ team before you can get added to REVU.
[04:11] <Hobbsee> ppa != revu
[04:12] <philn> ScottK: just joined it :)
[04:12] <StevenK> Never mind how much sabdfl which it was
[04:12] <StevenK> Er, s/which/wishes/
[04:12] <philn> Hobbsee: yeah I know, but registering on PPA required me to upload my GPG key
[04:12] <Hobbsee> true
[04:12] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Would you please sync the keyring.
[04:13] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Thanks.
[04:13] <Hobbsee> no problem
[04:16] <Hobbsee> hi jono
[04:17] <norsetto> can anyone please shoot martin23?
[04:17] <philn> ScottK: what should the distribution field be in debian/changelog? gutsy, unstable, or something else?
[04:18] <ScottK> philn: gutsy
[04:18] <philn> ok
[04:18] <jono> hey
[04:18] <Hobbsee> norsetto: why?
[04:19] <Hobbsee> oh, connection woes
[04:19] <norsetto> Hobbsee: all those opening and closing doors, the draft is killing my neck (there is old people here, you know....)
[04:19] <ScottK> Hobbsee: He's been poning in and out of this (and many other Ubuntu channels) for four hours now.
[04:19] <ScottK> poning/pongin
[04:19] <ScottK> ponging even.
[04:20] <zul> k-line him
[04:21] <Hobbsee> ScottK: it's a ticket on the ktrain.
[04:21] <Hobbsee> chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga chuga CHOO CHOO!!!!!
[04:24] <persia> For a UVFe, I have 1) the new package, 2) the diffstat of the debdiff, 3) the diff -u of ChangeLog, 4) the buildlog, 5) the installlog.  What am I missing?
[04:24] <Hobbsee> persia: the bug?
[04:24] <persia> Hobbsee: That's been there for at least 12 hours :)
[04:24] <persia> Anything else?
[04:24] <Hobbsee> ah right
[04:25] <ScottK> persia: Adding 2 - 5 to the bug maybe?
[04:25] <Hobbsee> i dont see anything
[04:25] <ScottK> persia: And then subscribe motu-uvf to the bug.
[04:25] <persia> Right then.  Thanks.  I find I really dislike the default configuration of fluxbox (except that it has sane DPI settings), so I'll be glad to get somewhere else to upload :)
[04:31] <ScottK> philn: Also make sure you add (LP: #nnnn) to debian/changelog for each package to mark the UVFe bugs fix released.
[04:32] <pkern> ScottK: Did you mean pkern?
[04:32] <philn> ScottK: ok, thx for the tip!
[04:32] <ScottK> pkern: No.
[04:33] <ScottK> pkern: It might be good advice for you too though, now that you mention it.
[04:33] <pkern> ScottK: Aye.
[04:33] <persia> Bug #150765 is ready for critique
[04:33] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150765 in fluxbox "UVFe Request: Fluxbox1.0.0 Final included in Gutsy" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/150765
[04:34] <ScottK> persia: You think it's a good change?
[04:35] <persia> ScottK: No idea.  The required test from the FreezeExceptionProcess was the first time I've ever run fluxbox.  In general, I think "final" versions are better to ship than "release candidates", but that's just theory.
[04:35] <Hobbsee> persia: why do you have joins/parts enabled anyway?
[04:35] <persia> Hobbsee: Huh?
[04:35] <Hobbsee> oh, norsetto sorry
[04:35] <ScottK> Hobbsee: It's the default Konqueror configuration (at least for me).
[04:36] <norsetto> Hobbsee: about?
[04:37] <ScottK> persia: Thanks.  Acked.
[04:37] <Hobbsee> norsetto: the draft killing your neck
[04:37] <ScottK> Hobbsee: Would you please have a look at persia's UVFe ^^^
[04:37] <norsetto> Hobbsee: yeah, I know, its spelled draught, or whatever
[04:37] <persia> ScottK: How many acks does it need before I retitle, modify the description, and subscribe ubuntu-archive?
[04:37] <Hobbsee> meh.  persia wrote it, +1
[04:37] <ScottK> persia: Two.
[04:38] <persia> Hobbsee: Umm..  I'm an excellent bug author, but don't take my doing admin work as advocation.
[04:38] <Hobbsee> persia: ack'd.
[04:38] <ScottK> persia: You're approved then.
[04:39] <ScottK> persia: Thanks.
[04:39] <persia> Hmm..  Do I request a sync from debian unstable, or debian incoming?
[04:40] <ScottK> persia: Or find some trivial change 'needed' and upload it yourself as a merge.
[04:40] <persia> ScottK: If it was a codebase I'd seen before, I'd do that, but I don't trust myself with a new codebase this close to release.
[04:41] <ScottK> I'll ask about incoming.
[04:42] <Hobbsee> incomming is a pain to sync from
[04:42] <persia> ScottK: I'll just request from unstable.  I suspect it'll be out of incoming by the time it gets processed.
[04:42] <ScottK> OK.
[04:43] <pkern> Incoming does not even provide Package files for inculsion into sources.list.
[04:43] <Hobbsee> pkern: iirc, it just syncs via dget from the dsc - but that's wild conjecture, and i may be on crack
[04:43] <pkern> (Or rather: it does.)
[04:43] <highvoltage> hi, I've joined the ubuntu-universe-contributors group in Launchpad (or at least, signed up to)
[04:43] <pkern> (But for  buildds only.)
[04:43] <pkern> Hobbsee: It does.
[04:43] <highvoltage> is there something else I need to do to get my gpg key into REVU?
[04:43] <Hobbsee> highvoltage: how long ago did you join?
[04:44] <highvoltage> Hobbsee: about 30 seconds ago
[04:44] <Hobbsee> highvoltage: darn.
[04:44] <highvoltage> Hobbsee: why?
[04:44] <highvoltage> Hobbsee: how long until that happens again?
[04:47] <ScottK> philn: Just ping me here after your packages are uploaded.
[04:47] <philn> ScottK: yes, sure :) I'm building pigment package now.
[04:48] <highvoltage> Hobbsee: what does that mean? will the key be imported after the sync-run?
[04:48] <philn> thanks to you MOTUs for approving my UVFs :)
[04:48] <ScottK> philn: Next time it'd be nice if you aimed your "Let's fix all the bugs before Ubuntu releases" release a little earlier in our cycle.
[04:48] <Hobbsee> highvoltage: keyring sync goes to LP, and imports the keys into the REVU keyrigh.  so, yes
[04:48] <highvoltage> Hobbsee: aaaah
[04:48] <Riddell> persia: is there a bug number?
[04:48] <persia> Riddell: 150765
[04:48] <philn> ScottK: yes, our initial release date was Sept, 25th, but we got late :(
[04:49] <persia> Um..  bug #150765
[04:49] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150765 in fluxbox "Please sync fluxbox 1.0.0-1 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/150765
[04:49] <persia> Riddell: I think it's still in incoming though, so it might be easier to wait a few hours.
[04:49] <pkern> persia: Tomcat uploaded. So let's hope it builds. :-P
[04:50] <pkern> (After approval.)
[04:50] <persia> pkern: Great.  Thanks for chasing that.
[04:51] <zul> uh should you do a test build before uploading?
[04:51] <bddebian> Heya gang
[04:51] <persia> zul: tomcat is special - building is dependent on the unknowable
[04:51] <persia> hi bddebian
[04:52] <bddebian> Heya persia
[04:52] <zul> persia: thats kind of dumb ;)
[04:52] <ScottK> zul: It's Java.  Of course.
[04:53] <persia> zul: I'm sure it's not intentional.  My personal bugbear unreliable build is drscheme.  I've uploaded a couple of revs, and never had less than 2 buildd failures that needed giving-back.
[04:53] <zul> persia: sure but its kind of frowned upon
[04:54] <persia> zul: It depends on the cause.  In the case of drscheme, it FTBFS if the buildd doesn't have enough entropy stored.  I don't know what tomcat's excuse is.
[05:04] <pkern> zul: Now Tomcat is also the package with ~10000 Java WARNINGS, which reliably obscures everything. ;)
[05:04] <zul> meh java should be shot
[05:07] <highvoltage> ogra: should it specifically be client-image-$(arch)? or could I make it ltsp-client-image-$(arch)?
[05:08] <highvoltage> ogra: ltsp-* seems to be more consistant with the current LTSP packages, and will make it, imho, easier for people who do things like apt-cache search ltsp
[05:13] <philn> ScottK: sorry, i'm having problems to sign the source package i'm building :(
[05:14] <ScottK> philn: What's the problem?
[05:14] <philn> ScottK: i use pdebuild, have DEBBUILDOPTS="-S -sa -rfakeroot -k5B4E69BB" in my ~/.pbuilderrc, dpkg-buildpackage uses these options, but dpkg-genchanges only uses -S -sa options
[05:18] <philn> i'll find a way to build these packages properly, sorry for the delay
[05:18] <ScottK> philn: No problem.
[05:19] <ScottK> philn: How about debuild -S -sa -k5B4E69BB
[05:22] <philn> i'm using feisty on this machine, if my current build attempt fails, i'll setup my environment on the gutsy system i use for testing
[05:27] <philn> ScottK: ok, managed to upload pigment package
[05:28] <ScottK> OK.  I'm on a work fire drill ATM, I'll look in a bit.
[05:28] <philn> ScottK: but the orig.tar.gz wasn't uploaded, should i do so?
[05:30] <ScottK> Upload it again with the orig.tar.gz.  -S -sa should have included it.
[05:33] <philn> ScottK: done! :) now processing elisa package
[05:33] <ScottK> OK.
[05:35] <bddebian> Man I hate my life some days
[05:37] <bddebian> pkern: You bored?
[05:37] <geser> Hi bddebian
[05:37] <bddebian> Heya geser
[05:38] <philn> ScottK: uploaded elisa too. Recovered my REVU password so I can comment on my uploads
[05:38] <ScottK> philn: Great.
[05:39] <pkern> bddebian: No, got a FTBFS to crush.
[05:40] <bddebian> OK
[05:42] <pkern> Package cowdancer is not available, but is referred to by another package.
[05:49] <dholbach> hey geser, bddebian, pkern :)
[05:49] <pkern> Hey dholbach (:
[05:49] <bddebian> Heya dholbach
[05:49] <dholbach> how's it going guys?
[05:49] <bddebian> Just lovely. You?
[05:50] <dholbach> a bit tired and about to call it a day soon
[05:51] <pkern> Yeah libcommons-modeler-java does not even fail in a 32bit chroot, but fails on the i386 buildd.
[05:52] <highvoltage> ogra: got my question I asked at 17:08?
[05:54] <ogra> highvoltage, nope
[05:56] <highvoltage> ogra: should it specifically be client-image-$(arch)? or could I make it ltsp-client-image-$(arch) instead?
[05:56] <highvoltage> ogra: ltsp- seems more consistent with the existing ltsp packages.
[05:56] <ogra> with the ltsp- prefix
[05:56] <highvoltage> ok, kewl.
[05:59] <pkern> Uh, according to Debian bug #444547 this is fixed in exactly the same version we synced.
[05:59] <ubotu> Debian bug 444547 in libcommons-modeler-java "libcommons-modeler-java: FTBFS: tests failed" [Serious,Fixed]  http://bugs.debian.org/444547
[06:00] <pkern> But we wouldn't know if it builds on Debian because it's arch:all. *gnarf*
[06:01] <pkern>      [java]  Caused by: java.io.IOException: error resolving http://jakarta.apache.org/commons/dtds/mbeans-descriptors.dtd
[06:01] <pkern> Bah
[06:01] <pkern> Of course that doesn't fail here.
[06:08] <ScottK> pkern: man-di often hangs out here and helps with Java stuff.  Maybe he has an idea.
[06:08] <pkern> ScottK: I know it.
[06:08] <ScottK> OK.  Just saying.
[06:08] <pkern> ScottK: A case of "HEY CDBS DOES EVERYTHING FOR ME"!
[06:09] <pkern> So I just drop a patch into debian/patches and don't include a trace of simple-patchsys.
[06:09] <ScottK> Whether you want it to or not.  for/to.
[06:11] <man-di> pkern: whats your problem with libcommons-modeler-java?
[06:11] <pkern> man-di: We synced a newer version which needs internet access during build.
[06:11] <bddebian> Hah
[06:11] <pkern> man-di: Fixed by actually activating the patch the maintainer just dropped into debian/patches.
[06:12] <man-di> pkern: please mail me the patch you apply, so I can fix it in Debian too
[06:12] <dholbach> night guys - see you tomorrow!
[06:15] <ScottK> philn: The only problem I see is that you need to merge the -1/-0ubuntu1 debian/changelog entries.  If I don't find anything else, I'll do that and upload.
[06:16] <bddebian> Gnight dh
[06:16] <bddebian> grr
[06:24] <philn> ScottK: ok, great! lemme know if i can do something to help
[06:24] <ScottK> So far it's all good.
[06:24] <philn> cool :)
[06:25] <ScottK> philn: The elisa binary gets some Lintian warnings.  I won't block uploading if you promise to fix them in Debian.
[06:26] <philn> ScottK: hmm i'll have a look. I have commit access on pkg-gstreamer@alioth so I can fix these issues
[06:27] <ScottK> Just run lintian -i on the .deb.
[06:28] <philn> yep, recompiling the deb now to have a look
[06:30] <ScottK> philn: Linda isn't entirely thrilled either.  Same deal.
[06:31] <philn> ScottK: ok these issues are fixable ;) will fix the upstream ones in trunk now and the ones in the package too
[06:31] <ScottK> Great.
[06:32] <ScottK> philn: In general, it's a very good practice to run Lintian/Linda both on both the source and the .deb of packages.
[06:32] <philn> ScottK: yes, next time i'll take more care
[06:41] <ScottK> philn: Also for Uploads to Ubuntu, you need to adhere to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField
[06:44] <philn> ScottK: so in this case Maintainer: is set to MOTU Developers, right?
[06:44] <ScottK> Yes.  I'll take care of it for this upload.
[06:44] <philn> fine by me; I agree
[07:01] <ScottK> philn: Some warnings that should be dealt with for Pigment too.
[07:03] <philn> ScottK: ok, i'll take care of them; I'm currently writting the elisa man page
[07:04] <ScottK> philn: How about if you clean up as much of this stuff as you can today and I'll upload an updated package later today.
[07:04] <ScottK> Some of the lib related warnings in Pigment are concerning to me.
[07:05] <ScottK> Yummy.  My Kubuntu install only needs 76 new packages to install this stuff ...
[07:05] <philn> ok; i'll finish that manpage later on, now looking at Pigment warnings
[07:05] <ScottK> OK.
[07:06] <ScottK> siretart: Upload notifications for REVU don't seem to get making it to the mail list today...
[07:08] <ScottK> philn: Ping me when you have a new upload.
[07:08] <philn> ScottK: yep
[07:08] <coNP> re
[07:10] <mruiz> hi all. How many acks do I need to concrete an UVFe ?
[07:12] <philn> ScottK: you're talking about the soname warning? it's the only one I have, but indeed annoying
[07:12] <bddebian> 2 motu-uvf members
[07:12] <ScottK> mruiz: Two.
[07:12] <ScottK> philn: That was Lintian and then Linda had another.
[07:12] <philn> ScottK: ok
[07:13] <ScottK> philn: I've lost it off my scrollback.
[07:13] <mruiz> I asked because I got 2 acks (bug 141640)
[07:13] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 141640 in ipod-sharp "UVFe ipod-sharp 0.6.3 -> 0.6.4" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/141640
[07:15] <ScottK> mruiz: It's approved.
[07:18] <philn> ScottK: libpigment0.3-1: package-name-doesnt-match-sonames libpigment-0.3-1 <-- I don't see anything wrong there.. I checked the sonames of all shared libraries and they match the package name
[07:18] <ScottK> OK.
[07:18] <ScottK> False positive then.
[07:19] <philn> will try lintian -v to see if it helps
[07:19] <ScottK> philn: Worse news is elisa wouldn't start for me.  I copy/pasted into the REVU package so you could see the exact error.
[07:19] <philn> ok
[07:19] <ScottK> Note that I'm using Kubuntu so you may have some missing depends.
[07:20] <ScottK> siretart: Comments however are arriving ...
[07:21] <philn> ScottK: ok, might be a missing dep. Do you have gstreamer0.10-plugins-base installed? it's not mentionned in debian/control
[07:21] <ScottK> Then I'd imagine not.
[07:22] <ScottK> No.  I did not.
[07:22] <philn> ScottK: i'll fix that.. elisa indeed depends on gst-plugins-base
[07:24] <ScottK> Starts now
[07:24] <mruiz> ScottK, also I want to know when it'll be uploaded
[07:25] <ScottK> mruiz: What are you talking about?
[07:26] <mruiz> ScottK, ipod-sharp 0.6.4 from Debian (bug 141640)
[07:26] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 141640 in ipod-sharp "UVFe ipod-sharp 0.6.3 -> 0.6.4" [Undecided,Confirmed]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/141640
[07:27] <ScottK> mruiz: I have no idea.  Just because I acked the UVFe doesn't mean I have any intention of doing the upload.  motu-uvf != uploads everything.
[07:27] <coNP> mruiz: I can do an upload
[07:27] <coNP> I am in a reviewing mood :)
[07:27] <mruiz> :)
[07:28] <ScottK> philn: I found the Menu icon too.
[07:28] <ScottK> It starts, but it absolutely crushes the ancient laptop I have Gutsy on, so I can't tell if it works or not.
[07:31] <philn> yes it requires good OpenGL acceleration support currently
[07:32] <ScottK> I'll be AFK for an hour or two.  Ping me if you have a revised upload.  I'll get it in the scrollback.
[07:33] <philn> can i upload new package with same revision or do i need to increment the revision number?
[07:34] <coNP> philn: you *should* use the same version
[07:34] <coNP> Or even something stronger :)
[07:34] <philn> heh; ok :)
[07:34] <man-di> back
[07:35] <mruiz> coNP, can you review  ipod-sharp ?
[07:36] <coNP> mruiz: I am doing that ATM
[07:36] <coNP> mruiz: sorry for not notifying you about that
[07:36] <mruiz> thanks coNP :-)
[07:37] <coNP> mruiz: this is a sync. Am I wrong?
[07:37] <mruiz> coNP, yes... it's a sync
[07:37] <coNP> So you need a core dev
[07:37] <coNP> Or how we call them this week :)
[07:37] <mruiz> :)
[07:38] <coNP> mruiz: are you a MOTU?
[07:38] <mruiz> coNP, no yet... I'm still learning
[07:38] <coNP> Actually you have ACKs from 3 MOTU(-UVF)s
[07:38] <coNP> So I am not sure any more is needed
[07:39] <mruiz> coNP, ScottK said me that 2 acks are needed, then my request is approved
[07:39] <coNP> But anyway I give it some basic testing and subscribe archive admins if appropriate
[07:39] <coNP> mruiz: yep, Hobbsee and he acked that
[07:39] <coNP> That is two.
[07:44] <philn> ScottK: re-uploaded elisa; only one remaining lintian warning about missing manpage
[07:45] <bddebian> So get writing ;-)
[07:45] <philn> bddebian: yeah i'm on it :)
[07:45] <bddebian> If there is help, help2man is your friend :)
[07:51] <mruiz> StevenK, soren: can you review the bug 148834, please?
[07:51] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 148834 in hipo "UVFe: please sync hipo from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,New]  https://launchpad.net/bugs/148834
[08:14] <Windkracht8> Hello, conflict in Netbeans package on Gutsy, Netbeans doesn't work with java sdk 1.5 with desktop effects enabled. I think Netbeans should be dependent on jdk 6.3, not 1.5.
[08:15] <jpatrick> Windkracht8: have you filed a bug?
[08:15] <Windkracht8> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/netbeans5.5/+bug/150729
[08:15] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 150729 in netbeans5.5 "Netbeans not working after update to Gutsy" [Undecided,New] 
[08:15] <jpatrick> ah good :)
[08:16] <Windkracht8> I thought, I would tell you guys as well :)
[08:16] <jpatrick> someone will get round to it, don't worry
[08:16] <Windkracht8> another thing, Netbeans doesn't find jdk 6.3 by default
[08:17] <Windkracht8> have to use the --jdkhome option
[08:17] <Windkracht8> ok, I
[08:17] <Windkracht8> I'll stop worrying
[08:24] <siretart> superm1: upload where?
[08:24] <siretart> hey folks, btw
[08:24] <philn> ScottK: uploaded a new version with manpage :) No lintian warning shall remain now
[08:25] <siretart> ScottK: re revu upload notifications, did you already talk to sistpoty about that?
[08:25] <bddebian> Heya siretart
[08:26] <siretart> huhu bddebian!
[08:27] <coNP> Hey bddebian
[08:28] <bddebian> Hi coNP
[08:49] <man-di> pkern: libcommons-modeler-java 2.0.1-4 uploaded to Debian, feel free to file a SYNC
[08:53] <superm1> hi siretart
[08:53] <superm1> i think your referring to mplayer from a few days ago?
[09:00] <siretart> 08:35 #ubuntu-motu: < superm1> Fujitsu, siretart, slomo, how do you guys upload then?
[09:01] <siretart> that's what I'm referring to :)
[09:01] <superm1> siretart, ah okay.  yeah sorted that out
[09:01] <superm1> it was because i had DEBEMAIL set
[09:01] <superm1> so i couldn't debuild -S -sa
[09:01] <ajmitch> hi
[09:01] <superm1> since it wanted an @ubuntu.com addy in the maintainer field
[09:01] <bluekuja> heya ajmitch
[09:04] <zul> hey ajmitch
[09:05] <bddebian> Heya ajmitch
[09:05] <philn> ScottK: i'm going home now, be back in 13 hours (i'm living in Spain). See you and thanks for your time!
[09:15] <bddebian> Isn't dpatch-edit-patch supposed to apply existing patches first?
[09:15] <coNP> bddebian: it is
[09:15] <bddebian> Hmm
[09:18] <geser> bddebian: are the patches listed in 00list?
[09:18] <ScottK> siretart: I did not.  I should have.  Sorry.
[09:19] <ScottK> siretart: I did, however, get one after I mentioned it.  So whatever it was seems to have resolved.
[09:20] <bddebian> geser: Aye
[09:21] <bddebian> They even apply fine with debian/rules patch ;-)
[09:22] <ScottK> bddebian: You have to call it dpatch-editpacth newpatch lastpatchyouwanttoapply
[09:22] <coNP> you can also use dpatch-edit-patch newpatch to edit patches up to newpatch
[09:22] <coNP> OTOH you have to assign a number greater than the patches before, of course :)
[09:22] <coNP> s/edit patches/apply patches/
[09:23] <bddebian> ScottK: Ahh, I'll try that, thx
[09:24] <ScottK> bddebian: Don't forget to add it to your 00list after too.
[09:25] <bddebian> That part I did :-)
[09:28] <YokoZar> ScottK: what's the status on ia32-libs and wine?
[09:29] <ScottK> YokoZar: I'm pinged doko about his ia32-libs changes and haven't heard back.
[09:29] <YokoZar> ScottK: ok, thanks
[09:30] <ScottK> YokoZar: I've tested WINE on 32bit and I'm good.  If doko doesn't make an appearance soon, I'll upload your ia32-libs and follow it with WINE.
[09:31] <doko> ScottK: please hold back, I'd like to avoid two uploads
[09:31] <ScottK> doko: OK.  I only said that because I didn't hear back from you.
[09:32] <ScottK> doko: What's your timeline for an upload?
[09:32] <doko> ScottK: Wednesday evining UTC
[09:32] <ScottK> OK.  I guess I can hold onto WINE one more day.
[09:32] <YokoZar> That should be fine
[09:42] <jtbl> ScottK: I was told on the forums to speak to you about the ia32-libs package
[09:42] <ScottK> jtbl: Yes.
[09:42] <ScottK> It was me that left the comment.
[09:43] <ScottK> doko: jtbl here has a request for ia32-libs.
[09:43] <ScottK> jtbl: What is it?  doko is planning on a new upload in < 24 hours.
[09:43] <jtbl> libsigc++-2.0-0c2a
[09:44] <jtbl> that is require to run skype 1.4 static on amd64
[09:44] <ScottK> doko: Any thoughts on that?
[09:44] <jtbl> and the ia32-libs package doesnt have it
[09:44] <ScottK> jtbl: doko is doing the upload tomorrow, so lets wait for him to respond.
[09:44] <jtbl> ok
[09:45] <ScottK> He was here a minute ago.
[09:46] <jtbl> also i wanted to talk about checkgmail and nspluginwrapper
[09:46] <ScottK> SUre.
[09:47] <jtbl> you mentioned the desktop file for checkgmail on the forums
[09:47] <jtbl> the reason why we added that is because users requested it
[09:47] <ScottK> jtbl: I didn't get a chance to look into your code in detail, but I noticed you had included that in your package and I was curious why.
[09:48] <ScottK> Right, but what's the deficiency in the Ubuntu package that causes that?
[09:48] <jtbl> nothing
[09:48] <ScottK> Then I'm confused.
[09:48] <jtbl> some users just want to be able to go to the ubuntu menu and click the checkgmail option and load checkgmail
[09:49] <ScottK> I don't use the package myself.  Can't we just update the Ubuntu package for that?
[09:49] <jtbl> sure
[09:49] <ScottK> coNP: Are you still around?
[09:50] <coNP> ScottK: not at all :)
[09:50] <jtbl> actually whats checkgmail is supposed to do is load when you login to gnome
[09:50] <ScottK> coNP: Would you work with jtbl and get his input on improvements we can make to the checkgmail pakcage?
[09:50] <jtbl> but some users dont like it loading when they login
[09:50] <ScottK> I can see that.
[09:51] <coNP> Sure.
[09:51] <jtbl> so we added the desktop file
[09:51] <coNP> But now I have to leave. It is getting pretty late here in Europe.
[09:51] <coNP> I have some 5-10 minutes now
[09:51] <ScottK> coNP: Can you at least tell me if what jtbl suggest is reasonable and we can work out the details after you've gone?