=== Starting logfile irclogs/ubuntu-devel.log === ubuntulog [i=ubuntulo@ubuntu/bot/ubuntulog] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Topic for #ubuntu-devel: Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with gutsy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty, #ubuntu+1 for gutsy support | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Gutsy release freeze in effect | Please test the RC candidates: https://iso.qa.stgraber.org/qatracker/ === Topic (#ubuntu-devel): set by pitti at Tue Oct 9 03:22:09 2007 === CarlFK [n=carl@c-76-29-25-210.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Knightlust [n=dax@ubuntu/member/knightlust] has joined #ubuntu-devel === greeneggsnospam [n=JSG@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-devel === m1ke [n=mike@c-67-186-85-180.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === tonyyarusso [n=anthony@ubuntu/member/tonyyarusso] has joined #ubuntu-devel === j_ack [n=j_ack@p508D8CE2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Yvonne [n=Yvonne@pdpc/supporter/active/Yvonne] has joined #ubuntu-devel === archlich [n=archlich@cpe-74-74-219-225.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jsgotangco [n=JSG@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-devel === tehk [n=tehk@c-69-249-157-157.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jamesh [n=james@canonical/launchpad/jamesh] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-devel === tiborio [n=tibor@mail.frontierliving.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Hobbsee [n=Hobbsee@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jamesh [n=james@canonical/launchpad/jamesh] has joined #ubuntu-devel === thekorn [n=markus@a89-182-10-242.net-htp.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === holycow [n=start@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === maikmerten [n=chatzill@ls5appsrv05.cs.uni-dortmund.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === thekorn [n=markus@a89-182-10-242.net-htp.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jamesh [n=james@canonical/launchpad/jamesh] has joined #ubuntu-devel === kagou [n=Patrice@88-139-246-183.adslgp.cegetel.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [07:55] Good morning === SLaPoet [n=SLaPoet@user-38lm58r.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel === viviersf [n=cain@gw.impilinux.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Lure [n=lure@ubuntu/member/lure] has joined #ubuntu-devel === asisak [i=conp@ubuntu/member/coNP] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ubotu [n=ubotu@ubuntu/bot/ubotu] has joined #ubuntu-devel === MagnusR [n=magru@c83-252-222-139.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #ubuntu-devel === holycow [n=start@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jsgotangco [n=JSG@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-devel === holycow [n=start@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === viviersf [n=cain@gw.impilinux.co.za] has joined #ubuntu-devel === carlos_ [n=carlos@163.pool85-48-166.static.orange.es] has joined #ubuntu-devel === elkbuntu [n=melissa@ubuntu/member/elkbuntu] has joined #ubuntu-devel === dholbach [n=daniel@i59F76A01.versanet.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:55] good morning === joshk [i=joshk@estrella.triplehelix.org] has joined #ubuntu-devel [08:56] is ubiquity-automation working in any of the gusty prereleases? [08:56] *gutsy === LaserJock [n=mantha@adsl-75-15-202-176.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-devel === rluberti [n=rluberti@212.45.155.238] has joined #ubuntu-devel === rluberti [n=rluberti@212.45.155.238] has left #ubuntu-devel [] === Mez [n=Mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ivoks [n=ivoks@3-51.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === svolpe [n=Gerrath_@unaffiliated/gerrath] has joined #ubuntu-devel === seb128 [n=seb128@ubuntu/member/seb128] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Nuscly [n=nuscly@29-231.206-83.static-ip.oleane.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === pitti [n=pitti@ubuntu/member/pitti] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:24] Good morning [09:25] Morning pitti [09:25] morning pitti! === pitti hugs the Australians === holycow hides the sheep [09:26] Hey pitti [09:27] morning pitti [09:27] ogra: anything new since beta that should be added to the announcement for the RC (as opposed to the release notes)? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyGibbon/RCAnnouncement === StevenK grumbles. === Hobbsee hugs the pitti [09:28] virtualbox-ose-modules fails against -14 on i386 [09:28] StevenK: eww, ABI change? [09:28] pitti: Actually building the module fails, but works on amd64 === mvo [n=egon@p54A64806.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === LongPointyStick [n=mystery@ubuntu/member/hobbsee] has joined #ubuntu-devel === nags [n=nags@122.167.141.115] has joined #ubuntu-devel === amitk [n=amit@a91-154-119-106.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #ubuntu-devel === YokoZar [n=scott@c-67-166-147-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:49] Is anyone else getting a serious rendering issue in Firefox? http://tuzakey.com/~scott/offcie.png [09:50] YokoZar: remind us what's wrong with that? [09:50] ooh, "office" [09:50] yeah, it handles ligatures badly [09:50] Yeah. It's been doing that for a couple of weeks now. [09:51] Is it just my box though, or do you get that too? [09:51] I get it, too === sabdfl [i=sabdfl@ubuntu/member/pdpc.silver.sabdfl] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:52] Hmm. Well if Firefox is rendering it weird... [09:53] I'm assuming it's not a problem with http://www.digg.com/linux_unix :) [09:56] might be bug #37828? [09:56] Launchpad bug 37828 in firefox "Text rendered incorrectly in presence of ligatures and justified text" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/37828 [09:57] I see it with the "sans-serif" font, and not with Bitstream Vera Sans [09:57] I guess I goofed when I assumed that I had inherited non-default font settings in my profile... === liw [n=liw@a91-154-119-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:58] seb128: yup, that's exactly it. Office uses the ffi ligature, so it comes out all weird. === Yvonne [n=Yvonne@pdpc/supporter/active/Yvonne] has joined #ubuntu-devel [09:59] wow, there's an "ffi" ligature? that seems elaborate [09:59] well, LaTeX has those, too (ffi and ffl), they are quite common [09:59] except that they actually look *good* in LaTeX :-P [09:59] heh [09:59] how little I seem to know about fonts [09:59] the bug has a dejavu suggested workaround [10:00] <\sh> keescook, ping bug 150848 will do [10:00] Launchpad bug 150848 in dircproxy "[CVE-2007-5226] dircproxy segfault on blank /me" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/150848 [10:00] but with this, we should better have disabled ligatures in ffox [10:01] Either way, it's a regression compared with Feisty, so the patch needs to go in until we can wait for Hardy and Firefox 3 [10:01] or some sort of workaround, maybe not that patch [10:03] duh? amd64 does not have 'arch' command? [10:04] seb128: which workaround, the ligature disabling? [10:05] sabdfl: Will you be at FOSScamp, UDS, or both? [10:05] tepsipakki: what do you expect "arch" to do? [10:05] tepsipakki: what is "arch"? [10:06] slangasek: return "x86_64" [10:06] you mean "uname -m"? [10:06] no [10:06] well [10:06] but that's what it does :) [10:06] maybe that works as well === RemoteViewer [n=555@stan.physik.fu-berlin.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:06] but, why does i386 util-linux have arch and amd64 does not? [10:07] my i386 ubuntu doesn't have "arch" either [10:07] ah [10:07] so it was dropped [10:07] feisty has it [10:07] ah, in my dapper chroot it works [10:07] slangasek: yes [10:07] "arch is equivalent to uname -m" [10:07] says man arch [10:08] dropped in 2.13~rc3 or earlier [10:08] right, time to use uname then :) [10:16] <\sh> doko, please review bug 76807, think you forgot it with the last upload... [10:16] Launchpad bug 76807 in bash "/etc/skel/.bashrc sets HISTCONTROL twice in succession." [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/76807 === ogra [n=ogra@ubuntu/member/ogra] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:20] Question: I see https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+package/linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.22-14-virtual but I don't see it in the archive, and it's not in https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/+queue either. [10:21] Where could it have gone? === jono [n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:22] linux-ubuntu-modules-2.6.22-14-virtual | 2.6.22-14.35 | gutsy | i386 [10:23] YokoZar: both, IIRC === jsgotangco [n=JSG@ubuntu/member/jsgotangco] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:23] and looking forward to it :-) [10:24] slangasek, soren: ah, with -14 it slipped to main again, demoting [10:24] (it is uninstallable in main) [10:25] pitti: Oh, is the linux-image-virtual in universe, too? [10:25] slangasek: Where is that from? [10:25] soren: ah, no; just -rt and -xen, sorry [10:26] soren: drescher [10:26] pitti: Why is it uninstallable in main then? [10:26] but I concur that it's not visible on my mirror [10:26] soren: no, I misread; just lum -ume, -xen, and -rt are; -virtual is just not seeded === Tonio_ [n=tonio@linagoraberri.pck.nerim.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:27] soren: I wonder why, linux-image-virtual (from -meta) is in main [10:28] ah [10:28] pitti: It's not supposed to? [10:28] linux-virtual does not depend on linux-ubuntu-modules-virtual [10:29] soren: well, linux-image-virtual should pull in l-u-m-2.6.22-14-virtual [10:29] similar to -generic [10:29] Sure. === heno [n=henrik@ubuntu/member/heno] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:29] so that's a bug in linux-meta [10:29] -virtual didn't exist 24 hours ago. [10:29] \sh: yes, if I need another upload [10:30] ...so it's not that odd, really. It still needs to be fixed, though. [10:31] pitti: Oh, I need guidance here. What I need to do now is to poke the kernel team to make the appropriate changes to linux-meta.. Should I do anything to the seeds? [10:31] soren: no, seeds should be fine; it's just adding the dependency [10:32] pitti: Rock. And until then, I won't hit the archive at all or is that a separate issue [10:32] ? [10:32] slangasek, * Completely redone thin client login manager with themes for all *ubuntu flavours and support for autologin as well as an optional unencrypted graphics transport mode for low level hardware [10:32] slangasek, (for the edubuntu section) [10:33] slangasek: (scrollback) bdmurray is correct, the help text is in debian-installer === YokoZa1 [n=scott@c-67-166-147-83.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:33] sabdfl: Great, we'll finally meet :) [10:33] Is it kosher to brag about stuff that's only available in the alternate installer in the release notes? If so, I think we should definitely put the new crypt-lvm magic in there. [10:33] cjwatson: yah, I opened a bug on it for you :) [10:33] soren: it is in the archive, it just wants to move to universe [10:33] ogra: processing [10:33] mdke: (scrollback from yesterday) wasn't the major issue it was made out to be :-), it was just that gfxboot-theme-ubuntu needed a translation update [10:33] slangasek, * edubuntu supports collaborative document editing with the newly included gobby editor [10:33] soren: just about to do that === soren hugs pitti [10:34] soren: as a small note only [10:34] slangasek, * all packages needed to build a moodle server are shipped on the server CD now [10:34] i think thats enough for an RC announcement :) === YokoZa1 is now known as YokoZar [10:35] ogra: tsk, trying to crowd out the other flavours, are you? :) [10:35] heh [10:35] pitti: Gah... Yes, it's in the archive. I sometimes forget that my workstation is amd64 and I was looking at "apt-cache madison"'s output which obviously didn't show it. [10:35] i could add more but then the final announcement is less exciting ;) [10:35] My bad. === RicardoPerez [n=RicardoP@84.122.255.213.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:36] hi ogra [10:36] hey pitti [10:36] ogra: any idea how to get some 100 MB off the edubuntu DVDs? [10:37] not yet, was on my list for today to look at it ... [10:37] ogra: the first point is incorporated, please review my wording changes to make it fit the format [10:37] pitti, why did they grow again ? we were down to 50M iirc === davmor2 [n=davmor2@82-47-39-199.cable.ubr04.wolv.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:38] ogra: for gobby/moodle, I have a hard time understanding why these are important to include in the announcement, could you please provide a "why" for each of these? (Feel free to update the wiki directly) [10:38] ogra: I just looked at the rounded file size (4.4 GB) [10:39] edubuntu/dvd: gutsy-dvd-i386.iso oversized by 61544448 bytes (4761917440) [10:39] thats thats yesterdays state [10:41] slangasek, they arent that important :) [10:41] k then :) [10:43] slangasek, soren: I added a stanza about it; could use some unDenglishification and general improving, though [10:49] bryce: is a fix for #148231 inbound (post-RC)? [10:49] (xresprobe) [10:50] slangasek: he's asleep atm [10:51] pitti: I keep misplacing the link to that page... [10:51] slangasek: it's not uploaded yet? === Yvonne [n=Yvonne@pdpc/supporter/active/Yvonne] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:51] mjg59, http://cvs.fedoraproject.org/viewcvs/devel/gnome-power-manager/gnome-power-manager-2.20.0-expected-return-types.patch?rev=1.1&view=auto [10:52] soren: you mean https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyGibbon/RC ? [10:52] pitti: That's the one. Thanks. [10:52] tepsipakki: it's not in unapproved, so either it's already in and the bug didn't get closed, or it's not uploaded [10:52] mjg59, what do you think ? should we pull that in for final ? it extends your uint patch it seems [10:53] slangasek: right, seems that it isn't uploaded yet [10:55] doko: looks like icedtea lacks a bzip2 dependency === liw [n=liw@a91-154-119-10.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has left #ubuntu-devel ["One] [10:57] superm1: I may have a fix for you === allee [n=ach@allee.mpe.mpg.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zasf [n=matteo@host141-55-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zasf_ [n=matteo@host141-55-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel [10:59] Riddell: lp is so pedantic ... fixed [11:03] slangasek: I can wrap up a new xresprobe and upload it later today (post-RC) [11:04] Riddell: what is still outstanding on bug #99372, foomatic-db-gutenprint and ijsgutenprint now seem to be on the Kubuntu CDs without going over on size (#149899), does cupsys-driver-gutenprint need to be removed as well? [11:04] Launchpad bug 99372 in kubuntu-meta "MASTER: [Feisty] KDE Printing Manager does not list the PPDs of Gutenprint" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/99372 [11:04] tepsipakki: ok, cheers [11:04] slangasek: that can be closed now [11:04] Riddell: care to do the honors? :) [11:06] closed === tkamppeter [n=till@bl7-105-234.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:09] doko: accepted === rexy_ [n=rexy@s5591754c.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Tonio_ [n=tonio@linagoraberri.pck.nerim.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === zasf [n=matteo@host141-55-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Mez_ [n=mez@ubuntu/member/mez] has joined #ubuntu-devel === jono [n=jono@ubuntu/member/jono] has joined #ubuntu-devel === _human_blip_ [n=mike@116.193.207.82] has joined #ubuntu-devel === Watersevenub [n=Watersev@azevedo.astro.up.pt] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:42] seb128: can you unsubscribe ubuntu-archive from bug 151078? it was a mistake on my end [11:42] Launchpad bug 151078 in rails "Please sync rails 1.2.4-1 from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/151078 [11:42] pitti: what is the policy for moving milestones? I would like to unmilestone bug #140913 as there is no way to get this fixed for gutsy anymore [11:42] Launchpad bug 140913 in compiz "session save/restore does not work" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/140913 [11:42] pitti: is it fine if I just do that or does it need discussion/approval with the release team? [11:42] mvo: IRC ping works for me (slangasek ^) [11:43] mvo: go ahead and unmilestone it === Demitar [n=demitar@c-212-031-182-147.cust.broadway.se] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:46] dholbach: done [11:46] seb128: thanks === chrisle [n=chris@e178067212.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel === contrast83 [n=mike@adsl-074-236-242-009.sip.bgk.bellsouth.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel === lionel_ [n=lionel@ip-149.net-89-3-208.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel === mantiena-baltix [n=ubuntu@ctv-84-55-6-232.init.lt] has joined #ubuntu-devel [11:55] hi all [11:55] mjg59, hi === Demitar [n=demitar@c-212-031-182-147.cust.broadway.se] has joined #ubuntu-devel === XSource [n=XSource@41.201.249.237] has joined #ubuntu-devel === givre [n=flo@APoitiers-153-1-32-37.w83-200.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:16] Riddell: do you want to keep kdelirc and klaptopdaemon in main (it needs seeding to supported then), or universe (then I'll demote them)? === TheMuso [n=luke@ubuntu/member/themuso] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:26] ogra: so, can we go over http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/edubuntu/dvd/current/gutsy-dvd-i386.list and check for stuff to throw out? [12:27] ogra: what about linux-image-debug? [12:28] pitti: I am sure klaptopdaemon should be "retired" to universe, not sure about the other one [12:28] pitti: they should both be demoted [12:28] Riddell: done, thanks [12:29] pitti, why is that back ? i thought all linux -debug packages were gone last time already [12:29] ogra: that should buy us some 80 MB [12:29] thats enough [12:29] hmm, i really thought we had dropped all of them already for beta [12:30] * /^linux-image-debug-.*(? ok, I'll throw out this [12:30] yeah, then the size should fit [12:30] and try another dvd build === ion_ [i=ion@heh.fi] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:31] ogra: running [12:31] thanks :) === mdz_ [n=mdz@host86-142-228-214.range86-142.btcentralplus.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:34] heno: seen any reports of bug 150930? I just got it on two machines? [12:34] Launchpad bug 150930 in usplash "Black screen, and bad usplash.conf" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/150930 [12:36] Riddell: I didn't get it here in vbox; I'll ask testers to look out for it === soren goes to lunch [12:37] Riddell: could you test with an Ubuntu live CD to see if it's kubuntu-specific? [12:40] heno: ok === chand [n=rsamson@linagoraberri.pck.nerim.net] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:41] hi [12:42] does something on the desktop CD creates the Desktop directory? [12:45] Riddell: never mind ; stgraber confirms it on Ubuntu [12:45] (phew) [12:46] what creates that usplash.conf file? [12:47] it's a ubiquity bug [12:47] pitti: if you could have a look at the new compiz upload, that would be cool [12:48] it needs to copy xserver-xorg/config/display/modes to /target's debconf db before reconfiguring usplash [12:48] yet another thing depending on debconf db contents, gah [12:48] seb128, [12:48] if [ -L /root/home/$USERNAME/Examples ] ; then [12:48] chroot /root install -o $USERNAME -g $USERNAME -d /home/$USERNAME/Desktop/ [12:48] mv /root/home/$USERNAME/Examples /root/home/$USERNAME/Desktop/ [12:48] fi [12:48] seb128, usr/share/initramfs-tools/scripts/casper-bottom/10adduser === Keybuk [n=scott@wing-commander.netsplit.com] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:49] mvo: it's too late for the RC anyway, so I'll just let it sit in the queue, so that (1) slangasek can decide, and (2) if you need another fix, we don't have two rebuilds [12:49] hi Keybuk [12:49] ogra: ok, thanks [12:49] I think we should fix it post-RC and release-note that people upgrading from before may need to dpkg-reconfigure usplash [12:49] mvo: unless it's an OMGtheskyisfalling bug? [12:49] pitti: no, its anyoing, but not critical [12:49] mvo: simple and safe, or will it make Steve bite into the table? [12:50] pitti: small at least. [12:51] pitti: pretty safe too, but the compiz code is not so easy that its obvious [12:52] oh god, don't tell me the Desktop directory name needs to be translated [12:52] shudder [12:52] whoever thought that translating directory names on-disk (as opposed to in the UI) was a good idea owes me a *lot* of drinks [12:53] I translated it to ~/.local/share/desktop [12:53] Less clutter in ~, yay [12:53] bad if you want to access it via commandline [12:53] a perfect example of why it should not be translated [12:53] heno: how do I target a bug at gutsy final? [12:53] now suddenly translators are able to break code that doesn't use mkdir -p or equivalent [12:54] or impose their own personal views of home directory layout on everyone speaking their language [12:54] heno: got it, nominate for release [12:55] ogra: ah, daily CD health mail just came in; right, 61 MB for i386, 22 MB for amd64 === Amaranth [n=travis@ubuntu/member/Amaranth] has joined #ubuntu-devel [12:56] cjwatson, and additionally you have to remember if you have put the downloaded word doc with the picture collection inside into Dowloads, Documents or Pictures :) === ogra is really no fan of the xdg-dirs [12:56] I bet a language pack update can now make your existing desktop folder disappear by changing the translation [12:57] we should revert this madness for gutsy [12:57] I think xdg-user-dirs and its translations are a great thing overall, and I also like "correct" (localized) folder names in Terminal in gutsy, though I wouldn't object if the translations were only shown in GUI/Nautilus etc. [12:57] ++ [12:57] cjwatson: agreed. [12:57] Mirv: translating them in the UI is fine, but translating the directory names themselves is utter madness [12:58] Keybuk: I would like to unmilestone #146759 because its a gnome-keyboard-capplet bug and not a compiz bug (duplicate of #12153). is that ok with you? if it is important we can milestone #12153 instead [01:00] mvo: is the "It's not possible to disable some shortcuts, notably Move Window and Resize Window; attempting to do so, will just put them back" bit fixed? [01:00] that was a ccsm issue [01:00] ogra: Probably, yes [01:01] mantiena-baltix: Were you able to test that package? [01:01] Keybuk: I investigate and update the bug description [01:01] oh dear goodness there seems to be a crazy scheme to move XDG user dirs around on login [01:01] cjwatson: I agree making xdg-user-dirs-(gtk-)update foolproof is probably quite hard. Then again it'd be funny that you have "Typyt", "Asiakirjat", "Kuvia" in Nautilus but "Desktop", "Documents" and "Pictures" in terminal. And regarding gutsy, everything seems to work fine, all software that needs the translated Documents or Desktop dirs seem to find it, so apparently the GTK 2.12 xdg changes were gotten into use properly. [01:01] ogra: \o/ new DVD images are there, and not oversized [01:01] that's a nightmare [01:01] yay!!! [01:02] Mirv: no, all software doesn't [01:02] Mirv: I maintain stuff that has apparently been broken by this [01:03] or at least may have been, can't quite be sure yet === kagou [n=kagou@86.76.21.122] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:03] cjwatson: yes that was an exaggeration, having just used OOo et cetera. It's no wonder if some stuff is broken still, though it should work when software has been updated to use the new functions instead of hardcoding. === slomo [n=slomo@ubuntu/member/slomo] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:04] Mirv: at RC time, the appropriate reaction to an unknown quantity of software being broken by a change is to revert the change [01:04] cjwatson: only if you're sure that the change won't break even more software [01:04] I thought all GNOME apps were relying on xdg-user-dirs now? [01:04] and have been throughout gutsy [01:04] Keybuk: there's a switch that turns off the translation ... [01:05] what about people who have already got translated directories? [01:05] will that DTRT for upgrades which already have translations? [01:05] (I think it shuold, since you can manually remove them, but we need to check) [01:05] god knows, what about when the translations change? [01:05] Keybuk, seb once told me i can just uninstall the xdg-dir stuff to revert to the old beghavior (i didnt try but i'D excpect that to work) [01:05] it ought to be the same case === asac_ [n=asac@debian/developer/asac] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:05] cjwatson: what doesn't work when translations change? [01:06] turning off the translations should be equivalent to retranslating everything to "Desktop" et al [01:06] and then older Ubuntu code that relies on the name "Desktop" will keep on working [01:07] what code do we have that relies on the "Desktop" name? [01:07] and the translations should not change, once they've been decided. the same translations are used in every distribution. [01:07] casper, for one [01:07] cjwatson: casper doesn't typically run inside a user's login session? [01:07] Mirv: surely they go into Rosetta and are subject to language packs, like everything else [01:07] people who already have this and may get issues on a revert have been running Alpha/Beta software and should expect some turbulence [01:07] Keybuk, on all that are started by liveCD users ? [01:07] they're just .mo files in /usr/share/locale === DktrKranz [n=Luca@ubuntu/member/dktrkranz] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:08] ogra: it doesn't matter if things happen before login [01:08] cjwatson: xdg-user-dirs was now changed so that the translations are part of the source package, not stripped for Rosetta (in order to have all translations available even without language packs) [01:08] Keybuk, [01:08] part of the binary package, that is [01:08] if [ -L /root/home/$USERNAME/Examples ] ; then [01:08] chroot /root install -o $USERNAME -g $USERNAME -d /home/$USERNAME/Desktop/ [01:08] mv /root/home/$USERNAME/Examples /root/home/$USERNAME/Desktop/ [01:08] fi [01:08] Keybuk: so if casper creates /home/oem/Desktop, xdg-user-dirs-update will move it on login? === Fujitsu [n=fujitsu@ubuntu/member/fujitsu] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:10] Mirv: nevertheless, there are language packs that contain overriding versions of xdg-user-dirs.mo [01:10] (I checked) [01:11] cjwatson: it seems that if ~/Desktop exists on login, that becomes the default [01:11] rather than using a translated name [01:11] $ zgrep xdg-user-dirs.mo /mirror/ubuntu/dists/gutsy/Contents-i386.gz | grep locale-langpack | wc -l [01:11] 37 [01:11] Keybuk: does this whole thing not seem horribly flaky and an invitation to bugs to you? [01:12] I mean the entire design of having to move subdirectories of $HOME around on login [01:12] cjwatson: I can't see anything that suggests it moves directories? [01:12] it seems to just ensure that when you first login, you have the right name for your locale [01:12] hm, you're right, it doesn't [01:12] surely that's even worse [01:12] otherwise only handles new "standard" directories [01:13] the translations can never be changed, even if they turn out to be wrong [01:13] what if you change your language? [01:13] what does it do when I first log in using Norwegian, then switch to English because the Norwegian translation is less than perfect? [01:13] it appears that the authors haven't got that far yet [01:13] (which is a perfectly sensible use case) [01:13] it does not appear that the sky is falling here though === Karnaugh [n=karnaugh@196.212.55.130] has joined #ubuntu-devel === ivoks [n=ivoks@3-51.dsl.iskon.hr] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:14] well, its something we'll inherit into the next releases [01:14] it'll easily wedge us into a position that's bloody hard to get out of. [01:14] I'm concerned that because it has no backward compatibility provisions for the sort of use case Mithrandir outlines, we need to turn it off now or we're stuck [01:14] (if we wanted to be useful, we should take comments and concerns upstream and help them make it better) [01:14] given the impact it has on the future that should better work perfect before we default to it [01:14] upstream are not going to produce fundamental improvements in eight days [01:15] our primary concern is the quality of the Ubuntu release we're preparing now [01:15] what impact on the future? [01:15] what is the bug that's been discovered here? [01:15] cjwatson: hmm, I just checked that too, that's true though they haven't really been changed except for three languages. though there is a local copy of the translations in .config/user-dirs.dirs, so xdg-dirs-update should be able to even notice changes in the currently used language's translations (and maybe does). [01:15] Keybuk, transaltions being done on disk === Zic [n=Zic@ubuntu/member/zic] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:15] in the path structure instead of the UI [01:16] Mithrandir: the xdg-user-dirs-gtk-update asks the user if she wants to switch the folder names back to English or not [01:16] witrhout covering all possible cases [01:16] ogra: so we're going to go with a different solution to upstream, and patch every single application to keep the on-disk names the same and just translate in the UI [01:16] (which upstream will not do) [01:16] Keybuk: use case: "Tollef logs in using Norwegian, because he is Norwegian and likes his computer to talk to him in Norwegian Bokml. However, the Norwegian translation is buggy, so Tollef is sad and switches to the Norwegian Nynorsk translation, which is better. His downloaded images which was on his Desktop are now gone. Tollef is sad." [01:16] if not, .config/user-dirs.dirs keeps the translated version, if yes they're changed back to the English ones and folder names are updated. of course, I don't know how foolproof that is but it seemed to work quite fluently and without breaking anything when I switched between English, Spanish and Finnish [01:16] Keybuk, if you never had the xdg-dirs package installed your ~ will look sane ... [01:17] Mithrandir: but it doesn't appear to go [01:17] did you actually test this? [01:17] it looks to me like everything will stay the same === pitti tries the live CD on his flatmate's laptop and is astonished how slow Vista Ultimate is [01:17] how will it? Does it check for all translations of all directories? === rbrunhuber [n=Miranda@highway.mvi.de] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:17] so you end up with the old translation that you explicitly asked not to have any nmore? [01:17] Mithrandir: it has a config file saying what the directories are called [01:17] if an entry is in that config file, it uses it [01:18] pitti, not with quad core CPU in your laptop and 6G RAM :P [01:18] ogra: on such a machine, every OS is fast :) [01:18] heh [01:18] ogra: it's already a core duo, pretty recent [01:18] Keybuk: so it doesn't respect me changing my language, then? [01:18] Mithrandir: It does not remove any files, it just renames folders when necessary and keeps track on what folder names are in use and suggests folder names from the translations. [01:18] catching up with the discussion === persia [n=persia@ubuntu/member/persia] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:18] Mirv: where's the rename bit? [01:18] there's no rename in xdg-user-dirs-update [01:18] is the issue about "Desktop" or a general discussion about translated directories? [01:18] I saw fast XP bootup/operation on 800 MHz/512 MB RAM machines [01:18] pitti, vista is for the fjutscha :P [01:19] Mithrandir: so you don't like the implementation - the right way to fix that is to help upstream improve it [01:19] /etc/xdg/autostart/user-dirs-update-gtk.desktop does open the dialog asking if you want to rename directories when changing locales [01:19] Keybuk, a week before we release ? [01:19] Keybuk: correct me if I'm wrong, but we're in #ubuntu-devel talking about the Ubuntu relese [01:19] Keybuk: I think the idea is fundamentally unsound. [01:19] ogra: this has been in our distribution for the entire development process! [01:19] known bugs are better than unknown bugs [01:19] Keybuk, i know, i complained early [01:19] ogra: now is late for feedback [01:20] if we're reverting things we find distasteful, I have quite a length list here :) [01:20] seb128, when i complained you told me i can just remove the package and am fine, that suffices for me personally [01:20] cjwatson: yes, and this isn't a new thing - this is something we've had for 6 months; if it were a new update that broke, it would be appropriate to worry about it - but this is something we've had during our alphas, betas and now release candidate images [01:21] ogra: you didn't make constructive comments just ranted because you didn't like it [01:21] now is not the time to revert it because it happens to leave a sour taste in your mouth [01:21] without actually demonstrating any actual bugs from what I can tell [01:21] (since there would be Malone bug numbers going around here :p) [01:21] ogra: we can't stop every time somebody doesn't like a change or we would never do anything [01:22] seb128, i didnt want to stop you (especially since upstream wants to push it) bein able to revert if needed was a sufficient answer in my case ... you might have noticed that i didnt rant after that ;) [01:22] Keybuk: what is the issue exactly pointed there? [01:22] ogra: right, so don't rant now ;) [01:23] I have used xdg-user-dirs for the whole time of gutsy, and haven't had problems after the translations were also included in the binary package. I haven't noticed bugs, and there are three bugs in a [01:24] Malone [01:24] seb128: for me, the issue is that people are arguing to disable a piece of desktop infrastructure without actually quoting any bugs [01:24] which worries me [01:24] I've just checked everything in Malone I could think of, and cannot find any complaints about this being handled badly [01:25] Keybuk: what is the appropriate way to engage with upstream when you say that they have already dismissed the solution that I would advocate? I don't see a constructive way to do that [01:25] cjwatson: demonstrate problems with their chosen solution [01:25] cjwatson: what is your way? translate in the UI rather than on the disk? [01:25] seb128: yesw [01:25] -w [01:25] similarly, we don't translate "/etc" [01:25] cjwatson: they discussed that on the GNOME and xdg list for quite some time and agreed on the current solution, I don't think that will change now [01:26] well, those directories are mainly new [01:26] so there is no point in engaging [01:26] only Desktop is a special case and there is code to not translate it if required [01:26] what if translations change ? [01:27] will we have users with "Schreibtisch" and others with "Arbeitsplatz" ? (given a german user) [01:27] ogra: you get the xdg-user-dirs-gtk-update dialog asking if you want to rename it or not [01:27] cjwatson: we can't like every decision our upstreams make [01:27] ah [01:27] cjwatson: http://mail.gnome.org/archives/desktop-devel-list/2004-December/msg00424.html is the first discussion on the topic [01:27] Keybuk: forgive me for attempting to anticipate future problems with a poor design. I'll try not to do that in future. [01:27] ogra: I haven't tried, but in theory xdg-user-dirs should notice the translation having changed, and probably it does nothing until the language is changed to another and then back. Since the translations aren't used directly, but saved into a .config/ file [01:28] cjwatson: are you willing to commit your team to developing a replacement, patching every application and maintaining those patches in the face of upstream doing it a different way [01:28] cjwatson: there is pro and con for each methods with some long discussion [01:28] cjwatson: but you're not, you're ranting [01:28] seb128, but if they say no they'll keep "schreibtisch", right ? [01:28] Keybuk: I'm speaking as a developer, not a manager [01:28] cjwatson: you're throwing out the entire design, rather than looking at it from the "ok, they're doing it this way, how can we fix the resulting problems?" position [01:28] ogra: yes, you can write whatever you want as names [01:28] ogra: .config/user-dirs.dirs has the list [01:28] seb128, well, but i as developper lose the predictability for the names [01:28] ogra: you can make any change there you want [01:29] ogra: the API will get the names listed there on your configuration [01:29] so i can look them up there ? [01:29] Keybuk: you appear to think we should never point out design errors === MacSlow [n=mirco@unaffiliated/macslow] has joined #ubuntu-devel [01:29] cjwatson: not at all, I think we should [01:29] ogra: there is no "predictability", you use the glib API [01:30] I'll back off from "we should revert this for gutsy" because there appears to be enough glue and sticky tape to avoid major problems [01:30] seb128, well, given the casper code it would be very bad if it wouldnt be called Desktop [01:30] cjwatson: I strongly advocate using our experience to help upstream improve it [01:30] ogra: const gchar* g_get_user_special_dir (GUserDirectory directory); [01:30] to put it short, I don't want my grandma to see "Documents" folder, and I don't like the idea that what _I_ see in Nautilus is not what's on the disk, either. [01:30] i dont use glib in scripts [01:30] and I think we should be a little bit flexible, and try to help them improve their design -- but also a degree of smug "see, told you you should do it our way" in the background helps too :) [01:31] ogra: there is an easy function to copy in xdg-users-dir which has no GTK, GLIB, GNOME, etc depends for applications which don't use glib [01:31] Keybuk: but let's say it *had* broken casper because the sticky tape was arranged slightly differently; I find the position of "we shouldn't fix this in Ubuntu because upstream agreed to do something different" to be objectionable [01:31] the only thing I disagree on is using "we don't like the way it works" as a justification for disabling it *one week* before the release, without any actual apparent bugs :-) [01:31] cjwatson: I would agree [01:31] ogra: xdg-user-dir-lookup.c [01:31] seb128, yeah, as long as i can find out the name thats fine [01:31] I don't disagree that we shouldn't fix it in Ubuntu [01:31] Keybuk: bug 122602 appears to be caused by casper's creation of the Desktop directory [01:31] Launchpad bug 122602 in gnome-panel "Duplicated entries in Places Menu" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122602 [01:32] (err, tries to parse his own sentence) [01:32] (it's Triaged in xdg-user-dirs-gtk) [01:32]