/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/10/11/#ubuntu-artwork.txt

_MMA_nothlit: Ja. That's better.12:34
_MMA_Ill bbl.12:34
lassegulim going to add a sub pages to the /Hardy page12:35
nothlitlassegul: :o12:35
nothlitwhat12:35
lassegultheres no link to Alternate from Hardy12:36
lassegulim sorry there is.12:36
lassegulok, theres no need then.12:36
nothlitlassegul: theres more artists apps to add to the tools page, and we have to finish the etiqueutte page, and we have to clean up get involved12:42
nothlitas well as all the unfinished stuff commented in the main page12:42
lassegulnothlit: thats right. You take the Get Involved and i do the Tools page?12:43
lassegulnothlit: which one do you want to do?12:44
nothliti don't much care12:44
nothliti'll do what needs to be done12:44
nothlitand anything else i'm interested in i'll work on anyways12:44
lassegulok lets bring em up on gobby then.12:45
nothlitlassegul: delete the duplicates first =p12:46
lassegulnothlit: true :)12:46
lassegulwe are set12:48
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lassegul_hmmm. dc. nothlit i gotta sleep. talk to you in the morning01:34
nothlitlassegul: kk, lemme reconnect and save everything first01:35
nothlitlassegul: ok01:36
nothlitlassegul: cya later01:37
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troy_slassegul_: Sorry went to work...08:16
troy_slassegul_: And I call you on the Fedora 8 work - it is complete drivel.  Looks about as 'wow' as Novell's abortion.08:16
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lassegul_troy_s: :)09:01
troy_slassegul_: :)09:01
lassegul_troy_s: isnt that the good kind of 'wow'?09:01
troy_slassegul_: It is repetitive, done, and well... dried up like a prune.09:02
troy_slassegul_: So no... not good.  lol.09:03
lassegul_troy_s: I think the colours are well used, with the desaturated blue and purple. Its calm and has and the textures on the drop/splash/swoosh are nice.09:07
troy_slassegul_: Feck.  I can't even begin to comment on it.  Blue is done like dinner.  The curves are repetitive of 1995 mentality.  The consistency is rather akin to painting your entire house taupe, then your chairs and the rest of furniture, then your dog.09:08
troy_slassegul_: It is just tripe.  Utter uber tripe.  No balls.09:08
lassegul_lol09:08
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troy_slassegul: It is just a sad sad sad reminder as to how far Diana pushed F.09:10
troy_slassegul: And I can only imagine that she was probably restrained.  Oh more... No motif.09:10
lassegultroy_s: I understand what you are saying.09:12
troy_slassegul: It is really symptomatic of all the other crap distros are peddling.09:13
troy_slassegul: Completely mediocre, completely restrained, completely vague in directionality, and completely lacking in a clearly defined and focused audience / goal.09:13
troy_slassegul: The fear of mistake perhaps?  Hard to cite the reasoning.09:14
troy_slassegul: The funny thing is that all of this 'we should do it this way' that the distros are showing clearly is helping them get to a colossally underwhelming 2% market share.09:20
lassegultroy_s: I agree that being conservative when we are in this situation is silly.09:35
lassegulbut artwork alone is hardly the only reason for only %.09:35
lassegul*2%09:35
troy_slassegul: It plays a significant role.  The design of anything used by humans always plays a significant role.09:41
troy_slassegul: If you need further proof, look to the many vast areas that have seen significant change in adoption based purely on design -- records for example -- started without album art and the like.  The adoption of that simple trend helped to establish the entire music industry.09:41
troy_slassegul: Arguably the art and design of music videos launched another chapter.09:42
troy_slassegul: Automobiles, furniture, etc.09:42
troy_slassegul: Arguably _everything_ goes through the phase where people 'don't give a care' to the aesthetic presence / design elements.09:42
troy_slassegul: And, eventually, after much success through execution, the 'mainstream' adopts the application.09:43
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troy_slassegul: We must remember that the computing industry is still in a relative 'dark age' -- people only 'see' the Model T Ford -- there are many varieties to come.09:43
troy_sokie... night all.  take care.09:46
lassegulgood nigt09:56
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lassegulnothlit: check out GetInvolved.02:45
lassegulnothlit: could you add the announcement on the top about Hardy?02:45
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LDS_TrooperGreetings!02:55
LDS_TrooperAny luck in getting an advanced look at the new wallpaper?02:55
lassegulLDS_Trooper: the one in gutsy?03:01
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kwwiilassegul, nothlit: ping?05:11
nothlitpong05:12
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nothlitkwwii: i hope you don't mind i put this as a third bullet point? Simple wallpapers and themes ubuntu-specific can be submitted to  Ubuntu-Art.org, a sister site of the -look.org and -file.org websites.05:13
kwwiinothlit: I think we should wait another day or so until we know the outcome of the discussion on the mailing list05:14
nothlitsure, its commented05:14
_MMA_I think splitting submissions over 2 spots like that is unwise. Twice the work to me.05:15
nothlit_MMA_: splitting? its for general simple things05:15
kwwii_MMA_: right, I think that we should explain the different purposes of the wiki and such a site05:15
nothlit_MMA_: not for the hardy cycle, just a general collection of ubuntu wallpapers etc05:15
nothlitunless you think the wiki can handle hundreds or thousands of like submissions05:16
kwwiithe site is for general artistic rambling, the wiki is for definite explicit work on a whole theme05:16
_MMA_Ahh.... I see now. I read it as Ubuntu-Art.org would also be a plsce to post your submissions.05:16
_MMA_*place05:16
kwwiinothlit: once lassegul is around we need to discuss the wiki stuff...I talked to Jono today about our team using the wiki structure they created for every team...most of the information we have already, we just need to tweak things to fit05:17
kwwiicheck out for more info on what I mean https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BuildingCommunity/SampleTeam05:18
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kwwiiboah, i have spent a day on just conf calls and meetings :-(05:49
kwwii_MMA_: can you create a package for you murrine theme without the panel background?05:50
_MMA_Just pull the "panel" folder from the GTK folder and comment out the 2 lines at the top of the gtkrc file.05:52
_MMA_I can do it in a bit if you dont feel like it.05:53
kwwii_MMA_: yeah, I can do that, thanks :-)05:53
lassegulkwwii: im back05:53
lassegulhello everybody05:53
kwwiilassegul: howdy05:53
kwwiilassegul: might want to read the log a bit05:54
lassegulive read it05:54
kwwiiso what do you guys think?05:54
lassegulthat sample is really nice05:54
kwwiiwe have a lot of that info already05:54
lasseguland theres not much work we need to do to make it fit either05:54
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nothlittheres not much difference to what we have now, except theres basically a global navigation bar05:56
nothlitit might be interesting to add, but is it needed @ the top of every submission?05:57
nothlitmy preference is of course the traditional child-parent page relationship but i can see how that may be useful at the "base" pages05:58
kwwiino, not at the top of the individual projects...that is why I thought we should discuss how and where to use this05:58
lassegulI think we could just link to /Artwork from the submissions, and keep them like they are05:59
lassegulsomething like "home"05:59
nothlitare you talking about moving the function of the main page into the getinvolved page like they have now?05:59
nothlitand leaving the page for news and events?05:59
nothliti think thats more a loco team style thing05:59
lassegulnothlit: who are you talking to?05:59
nothlitlassegul: feel free to respond =p06:00
nothlitbut the navigation system in the main. documentation, incoming, and hardy/gutsy pages might be good\06:01
nothlitjust to allow jumping around even if the page gets a little longer06:01
kwwiiit seems to me that we could use that top bar but that we will still need a bit more than just that06:02
kwwiiteh faq sounds like a wonderfull idea, really06:02
lassegulnothlit: arent main page and getinvolved organized just like we do?06:02
kwwiisomeone asks "who is in charge of this mess" and I say "check this url"06:02
lassegulthe roadmap is also good.06:03
nothlitlassegul: well, not entirely06:03
kwwiiyes, the home page and the getinvolved seem to fine in the state we have them, basically06:03
nothlitlassegul: yeah, we can just point that at the general hardy roadmap though, unless we start developing a more detailed one06:03
nothlitlassegul: our main page is more like a portal, for projects etc, their getinvolved is similar--but the template main page is more of an event based thing06:04
nothlitlassegul: for teams that hand out cds this week, have a meeting that week, put up posters the next etc06:04
kwwiiI'll create a more precise roadmap...we can explain that major changes are only for every new LTS cycle and then go into specifics for this cycle06:04
nothlitdoes the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Processes page do anything the artwork builder page itself doesn't do?06:06
lassegullol06:07
nothlitso basically, we want a faq and roadmap?06:07
nothlitdo we also want a meeting 'ticker' at the top?06:07
kwwiinothlit: yeah, that seems like the basis of what we need06:08
kwwiiI just thought that there might be issues with certain pages where we still need a table of contents as well as the top bar thingy06:08
lassegulBut where will we put the subpages section then? Under the navigation bar?06:09
lassegulor should we put it back down to the bottom?06:10
nothlitkwwii: i'm wondering about the Archives Section and the Processes page, can we move everything in the archives section to the incoming attic? and is the processes page deletable?06:11
nothlitlassegul: well, if we want to make it fit closer to the template we'd have to leave it at the top06:12
kwwiinothlit: well, I don't care where the archives end up but I would like them to be viewable somewhere06:12
kwwiiand the proceses page is perhaps poorly named but the info there is somewhat important I guess06:12
nothlitlassegul: otherwise, my inclination would be to move it to the bottom once we were absolutely sure everything was covered in the text itself06:12
lassegulnothlit: re:archives  at least they should be collected in one place.06:13
lassegulnothlit: i disagree with you there, becuase people want to point and click, not to read through the whole page.06:14
kwwiiI think that experience has shown that people do not see the links at the bottom06:14
nothlitkwwii: i don't see anything in the processes page that isn't duplicated in the builder instructions itself, other than the spec for the builder and that hopefully it will create browsable html pages06:16
lassegulBut it might take up too much screen space when the page has lots and lots of subpages, like Hardy/Alternate, if we have both navigation bar and sub pages on the top, it will probably be 500 pixels tall.06:16
nothlitlassegul: thats why i prefer the children and "Show Parent" method of navigation generally06:17
lassegulmaybe we should skip the navigation bar on certain pages. Just have a "home" link.06:17
nothlitand then keeping the relevant information on the pages itself06:18
nothlitlike the hardy page has the technical resources link, and the submission guidelines and meeting link06:20
Samuli^is there a .deb for murrine engine configurator, by the way?06:20
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lassegulnothlit: now you are talking about skipping the sub pages table?06:21
nothlitlassegul: i'm talking about not relying on a global navigation as a crutch and making sure we put links where they're needed instead06:21
nothlitlassegul: the hardy page itself doesn't have a subpages anyways because there is only alternate and (will be) official to navigate to06:22
lassegulnothlit: i think relevant links collected in one place is better06:26
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nothlitsorry, d/c06:28
nothlitwhat was the last thing i said?06:28
nothlitthis is what i got last < lassegul> nothlit: now you are talking about skipping the sub pages table?06:29
lassegulnothlit: i think relevant links collected in one place is better06:29
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nothlitlassegul: in the navigation bar?06:31
lassegulnothlit: as a principle06:32
lassegulnothlit: im not really sure how we implement it in pages that can get messy because of it06:32
nothlitlassegul: sure, but do you want the one place to be in the main page or at the top of every single one06:33
lassegulnothlit: every page that isnt necessarily the users destination.06:33
nothlitlassegul: that would be every page or none06:34
lassegulhold on some wierd sounds are coming from the other room :S06:35
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nothlit`alphalol ok06:37
lassegulnothlit: (a pidgeon got in to my kitchen) yeah you are ok.06:37
lassegul*you are right06:38
lassegulkwwii: what do you think?06:38
kwwiialthough I like the idea of having all links in one place I am not sure if it would work06:39
kwwiiI wish Jono were here to express his opinion06:40
lassegulhe is away?06:40
kwwiinot sure, checking06:42
nothlitwell, we can try the menubar at the top approach, and if it doesn't work, just make a link back to the main page06:42
lassegulagreed06:42
kwwiihe is coming06:42
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jonoheya06:42
kwwiithe man, the myth, the legend06:42
lassegulhi06:43
jonohehe06:43
jonoWHAT DO YOU WANT?!!!06:43
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kwwiilassegul, nothlit: can you explain that again for mister cool?06:43
jono:)06:43
lassegulnice template btw.06:43
lassegulnothlit: will you do the honors?06:43
nothlitwe're wondering whether to adopt your navigation bar include for the artwork wiki section06:43
jonoright06:44
nothlitwe're worried about the clutter, and whether its relevant for every page, such as the individual theme ones06:44
jonoI would recommend06:44
jono the purpose for every page is so people can easily navigate around06:44
lassegulwe agreed on having subpages on the top earlier for the same purpose06:44
jonoright06:44
jonothere is no reason why you can't additional items to the menu bar I suggest06:44
jonobut I think you need to have each the things in my menu bar06:45
jonosuch as a knowledge base06:45
jonoand a faq06:45
kwwiiI guess the thing is that we have extra pages in addition to what is already included in that bar06:45
jonoand a link back to the main page06:45
jonosure, so add some additional pages06:45
jonoI would recommend you add a Projects item to the menu bar06:45
jonoand link a lot of things under that06:45
lassegulso /Incoming goes under projects?06:45
kwwiiright, that would be our current incoming page and subpages from that06:45
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kwwiilassegul: exactly06:45
jonoso as an example:06:46
nothlitjono: do you think its relevant for this set of pages? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Animals06:46
jonoProcesses can go under Knowledge Base06:46
jonoand Specs can go under projects06:46
jononothlit: I would link that from Projects06:46
jonoI woudl say pages for ongoing projects would be linked under a Projects option06:47
nothlitjono: as in, placing the menu bar in that collection of concept pages in the first place06:47
nothlitjono: its already has the siblings and slideshow navigation to begin with06:47
jononothlit: sure, I would suggest the menu bar is on all art pages06:47
nothlitadding another navigational item, may be a bit much?06:47
lassegulwith the forward back etc. navigation we have there from before it will take up much space.06:47
jonosorry, I am getting confused06:48
nothlitperhaps just leave the menu bar to the parent page?06:48
jonoI would recommend having my menu bar as it outlines all core sections06:48
jonobut then you have sub-sections, such as the animals page06:48
jonobut all pages should have the main menu bar, so the navigation feels consistant06:48
jonoand it also makes the pages easier to navigate for new users06:49
kwwiiat some point we could include a secondary navigation under the top bar if necessary I guess06:49
jonokwwii: exactly06:50
jonoI agree you might want a nav bar for sub-sections06:50
jonobut you want one main menu bar with Home Roadmap Projects Knowledge Base FAQ Contact and the meeting time on it06:50
kwwiiright, that clears things up then, I think06:51
jonoit also helps keep the art team pages consistant with other teams in the ubuntu community06:51
kwwiilassegul, nothlit: agreed?06:51
jonoright, I best run06:51
jonolater folks, have fun :)06:51
kwwiithanks man06:51
jononp :)06:51
lassegulyep. so long06:51
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nothlitkwwii: i dunno, imo not much point in talking about it, it sounds like something worthwhile to try, doesn't take much work so that would be the best approach06:52
lassegulI just tested it on Animals, and it looked good.06:54
nothlitso header should for now have, main page, hardy, get involved, documentation, and meetings?06:55
lassegulnothlit: we do that first then redo it into Projects etc.?06:55
kwwiino, the header should at least have everything in the example06:56
nothlitkwwii: we don't have faq and roadmap atm created06:56
kwwiithe other pages are either in one of those links or it should be in a subnavigation bar06:57
kwwiinothlit: yes, but I'll create them soon06:57
nothlitwe can place it in when its created and the include will handle it automatically then06:57
kwwiiok, fair enough06:57
kwwiiI think that instead of just having hardy we should have a Projects page (which is basically Incoming)06:58
kwwiiand Hardy will be one of those projects06:58
nothlitwe don't want a quick link to hardy itself?06:59
nothliti find that more important than the main page actually06:59
lassegulso do I.06:59
kwwiiok, fair enough07:00
troy_sseems that you must distill the levels of the tiers07:00
kwwiitroy_s: not sure I understand you07:00
nothlit!schedule07:02
ubotuUbuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases07:02
nothlit!hardy07:02
ubotuHardy Heron is the code name for Ubuntu 8.04-LTS, due April 2008. For more info, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyHeron07:02
nothlitbah07:02
troy_skwwii: It appears that where one might 'expect' to find the Hardy elements isn't laid out as one would expect.  (being the more naive form of 'expect'07:03
troy_skwwii: And my comment was directed at the 'we should be able to jump to hardy easily)07:04
kwwiitroy_s: so you think that having a direct link in the top bar would be helpful, right?07:05
troy_sHrm... I also just noticed that some of the pages don't have ToCs nor a way to navigate quickly to the subpages -- nothlit did you re-save the artwork page template?07:05
troy_sit would seem logical to use it for all pages.07:06
nothlittroy_s: i've never edited the artwork page template, the platypus template has it though07:06
nothlithttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/PageTemplate/Header07:06
troy_skwwii: I know I probably _wouldn't_ put an exception link in the top bar, but maybe make it such that whatever sub-sections one has makes it logical to get to the hardy stuff -- in this case I suppose the most relevant would be 'guidelines'.07:06
nothlitanyone want any changes?07:06
troy_snothlit: You simply put 'template' in a page title and it is shelved there.07:07
troy_snothlit: You can also use some macros to make it automagically fill in bits.07:07
kwwiitroy_s: right, now I get it...I think that having a projects page in the main bar and then having that main page point to the hardy project, alternate projects, and a "create new" project might be the best idea07:08
kwwiinaturally, there will also be guidelines for hardy and those should also be interlinked07:08
nothlitI don't know if the other projects are important07:08
troy_skwwii: Yes.  My instincts tell me that 'breaking' any form of developing logic in layouts probably won't help the cause.07:08
nothlitother than for the contributors themselves07:08
kwwiiright07:08
nothlitnot many people will be interested in modifying oransun or blubuntu, etc07:08
troy_salso, i always tend to err on the shallow side of the magic number value -- meaning the five or less -- for total elements of information presented.07:09
nothlitmy inclination would just to leave it as it is as a link in the Projects section on the main page07:09
troy_sone must remember that a short burst of items -- 9 is the MASSIVELY big side of the magic number.07:09
troy_s7 is average.07:09
troy_sand 5 is the lower 'common' end, especially when someone isn't trying to remember elements.07:09
troy_shttp://www.musanim.com/miller1956/07:10
troy_sfor more quick information on that07:10
kwwiinothlit: right, on the project main page there would be a link to the alternate projects (kinda a main page for those projects07:10
kwwii)07:10
kwwiiI have to head out for now...see you guys in a few hours07:10
troy_s(and that is a technical way of basically saying that on average, people process 7 elements of information at peak -- 9 for exception -- and 5 at the low end of the exception.  Miller was one helluva bright guy and his research has direct implications in design.)07:11
troy_skwwii: Ciao kww.07:11
kwwiiciao troy_s07:11
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lassegulnothlit: it looks good.07:16
troy_sgreetings calavera, what brings you around?07:16
nothlitthis is what it looks like with the main page, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork , and this is what it looks like on a concept page, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/Hardy/Alternate/Savanna07:18
lassegulhm. you sure we shouldnt skip the index of the other sub pages of /Alternate in the submission pages, and just keep Next and previous.07:19
nothliti would prefer keeping the stuff there and getting rid of the main bar to keep it in the root Alternate and Hardy07:22
nothlitpeople in that area, will just want to browse all the concepts07:22
lassegultrue07:22
lassegulthats what i meant by "pages that might not be their destination".07:23
nothlitahh lol07:23
nothlitwhen kwwii gets back he can decide =p07:23
lassegulja07:23
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nothlit`alphaanyone have an opinion to montage size? https://people.fluxbuntu.org/~nothlit/communitytheme/scripts/test/08:38
coz_nothlit`alpha, you mean as to its size  ?08:40
coz_in what manner08:40
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joejaxxnothlit`alpha: small looks like an adequate size for a gallery08:43
nothlit`alphaas in thumbnails for the wiki stuff08:43
joejaxxyes08:43
joejaxxit does08:44
nothlit`alphathey all fit within 1024x768 afai can tell08:44
joejaxxyeah08:44
joejaxxi think small.png is adequate08:44
nothlit`alphathis is the 320x240 sizing atm /home/justin/montage/large.png08:48
nothlit`alphaarg08:48
nothlit`alpharunning more than one x08:48
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nothlit`alphahttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/SubmissionTemplate08:48
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agoliveirakwwii: Yes?09:23
kwwiihowdy09:24
agoliveirakwwii: What's up?09:24
kwwiiagoliveira: nothing I just forgot to type / before join, sorry09:24
agoliveirakwwii: lol I'm becoming paranoid :)09:25
kwwiimy server died while I was away09:25
kwwii:p09:25
kwwiino worries09:25
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_MMA_"died" in what sense?09:29
_MMA_HW failure?09:29
_MMA_Smoke and ozone smell? :)09:30
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kwwiione of the fans went out09:33
kwwiiso it overheated09:33
kwwiiI turned the others up (nice webserver/java app on the firmware)09:33
kwwiinice to find out at 9:39pm that there is a deadline tomorrow09:39
_MMA_Ouch.09:40
=== _MMA_ has 4 180mm fans in his server (plus 2 smaller ones). Turned down a bit. Pretty quiet actually. I mostly hear the drives.
kwwiiwell, this server is a few thousand miles away09:49
kwwiiso it is really nice to have a way to interface the hardware without touching it09:50
_MMA_Oh.......09:50
_MMA_Neat. :)09:51
kwwiiyeah, and it was for free!09:51
kwwii:p09:51
_MMA_Nice. I have about $1000 tied up in my home one with the addition of the TB drive.09:52
kwwiiI just did some work for a large computer manufacturer (3 letter acronym starting with A and ending with D) and they gave me a server to boot09:53
_MMA_Killer.09:54
_MMA_Whats it run?09:54
_MMA_(OS)09:54
kwwiibsd naturally :p09:57
_MMA_Nice.09:57
_MMA_Was gonna do BDS or Debian on my home one. Just said F-it and put Gutsy on it.09:58
_MMA_CLI install. SSH into it. Been solid so far.09:58
kwwiilol10:00
kwwiilinux is not for servers :p10:00
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_MMA_kwwii: Better than Windows. ;)10:06
kwwii_MMA_: hehe, no doubt10:07
kwwiiman oh man, all-in-all today was a total crap day10:08
kwwiithis mobile stuff is just killing me10:08
kwwiiyou know it was a bad day when artwork for ubuntu is the best part :p10:08
kwwiimuahahaha10:09
kwwiiI knew I should have become an evil scientist or something less stressy10:09
_MMA_lol10:10
=== _MMA_ just wanted to record musicians for a living. Oh well. That's life. :)
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kwwiiwell, i studied civil engineering and didn't like building toxic waste landfills for a living so I got into this stuff10:13
kwwiisome days I think I should have just stuck with the toxic waste10:13
_MMA_:)10:13
kwwiiwhat in the heck is trackerd ?10:20
kwwiiit is using 69% memory10:20
nothlittracker is like beagle10:21
_MMA_Its this search thing.10:21
kwwiiwell it sucks10:21
kwwiibig time10:21
_MMA_If its up that high it might be indexing things.10:21
kwwiimaking my laptop unusable10:21
kwwiiit should die and go to hell10:21
nothlitlol, it shouldnt be active while you're on battery10:22
nothlitbeagle was even worse though lol =p10:22
kwwiiI am not on battery but it is making my "user experience" total shit10:23
_MMA_Turn off the service.10:27
_MMA_(Ubuntu Studio doesnt ship it) ;)10:27
kwwiilol, you apparently cannot change the preferences while it is running10:29
_MMA_Ouch.10:29
kwwiiboah, if I was a normal user this would *really* piss my off10:29
kwwiis/my/me10:29
=== kwwii is out for the night
troy_sthat indexing service is awful.11:25
troy_s'live' searches should be banished if they are going to hog up proc time.11:26
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