[03:33] <catfacts> Ok what is I would be say in school at 1700 UTC
[03:34] <catfacts> are all the meetings at that time on a friday
[03:34] <catfacts> cuz ill never get to one
[11:14] <nysosym> Hi there
[07:24] <troy_s> http://blog.creativethink.com/heraclitus/index.html
[10:16] <mhb> hi artists
[10:43] <troy_s> mhb: What's up mhb?
[10:44] <mhb> I like the idea of a completely new artwork for Hardy
[10:45] <mhb> I wonder if you're all devoted to GNOME only, or whether you would like to help improve the KDE (Kubuntu) artwork, too
[10:46] <mhb> because we're lacking good graphic artists at Kubuntu (well, we have kwwii, but he's immensely busy, and we're a very community project, so we'd welcome some community artwork effort)
[10:47] <troy_s> I thought everyone was umpty happy in Kubuntu land.
[10:48] <mhb> heh, I wish.
[10:48] <mhb> Kubuntu has got only its wallpaper slightly changed for Gutsy - we'd like something radical for Hardy, too.
[10:49] <mhb> non-wallpaper mockups (window decoration, panel background, colour profile) very welcome
[10:53] <mhb> I've seen some nice mockups for Ubuntu/GNOME, so I thought perhaps a community-friendly artist could do one or two for KDE, too :o)
[11:14] <nothlit> i don't see the point of trying to run off and go create a seperate concept for kubuntu, itd be interesting to bring it all into line
[11:15] <mhb> nothlit: well you're not the first who would like to push brown into kubuntu but that won't happen
[11:16] <mhb> nothlit: the unique look of KDE is what makes it special/interesting for users
[11:17] <lassegul> Hello everybody. Im back from 2 days of hell.
[11:18] <nothlit> mhb: i never said push brown into anything
[11:19] <mhb> nothlit: you said "bring it all into line", which I interpreted as using unified guidelines for both, of which colour set is an important part
[11:20] <nothlit> i don't see the point of creating a whole new concept for the same distro though, its more important to unify, they're both ubuntu, if it was kde that was favoured i'd say the same
[11:20] <mhb> nothlit: if I misunderstood your point, please do correct me
[11:22] <mhb> nothlit: well, kubuntu and ubuntu are separate in many ways
[11:22] <mhb> nothlit: not only the amount of cash flown into GNOME
[11:23] <nothlit> mhb: basically the point is if your going to grab for artists you're basically going to get swishyness, unifying doesn't necessarily mean a mirror image
[11:23] <nothlit> or does kubuntu just want the gloss look?
[11:24] <mhb> well it certainly doesn't need angry arguments
[11:24] <nothlit> ... huh?
[11:25] <mhb> well you sound a bit agitated :o) it's just that ubuntu and kubuntu has taken a different path than say opensuse
[11:26] <mhb> we're not one opensuse with two environments that look more or less the same ... we are brothers, but not twins
[11:27] <nothlit> i realise that, but i'm not saying they need to share the same wallpaper or try to have exactly the same look, but do you really believe that kubuntu is distinct enough to create and promote an identity wholly on its own?
[11:28] <mhb> and "unifying looks" usually means "copy over from A to B"
[11:28] <nothlit> if you want to ask for stellar artwork, imho it'd be easier to run with a solid <concept> for everything, otherwise at least one of the *buntu is going to be left behind
[11:29] <mhb> well, kubuntu doesn't resemble Ubuntu/GNOME today at all, and we'd like to keep that, yes
[11:30] <mhb> believe me, any such unifying efforts usually tend to drop one DE in the end
[11:30] <mhb> "it looks the same now, why are we maintaining them both again?" attitude
[11:31] <mhb> the truth is, the Kubuntu artwork is quite inconsistent because we lack a concept
[11:31] <mhb> and without graphic artist community we can do little about that
[11:32] <mhb> we'd like to show that we're proud of being KDE and of being Ubuntu.
[11:32] <mhb> any unification effort would hinder one or the other.
[11:35] <troy_s> mhb... hem
[11:36] <mhb> troy_s: a supporter of consistency?
[11:37] <troy_s> mhb: I am a huge supporter of audience and goal.  Internal consistency...
[11:37] <nothlit> thats fine, but i'm of the belief that trying to completely seperate yourself will dilute and confuse both the ubuntu brand and the power that kubuntu draws from it (i'm definitely not saying kubuntu should just be absorbed, i've defended the kubuntu/xubuntu naming a few times)
[11:37] <troy_s> mhb: I suppose that if the designer realm actually had some experience it would be nice to different twists on a motif.
[11:38] <troy_s> mhb: In the end however, it is irrelevant -- what should be important in my eyes would be for each distribution to have a strong presence.  Something they currently do not have (for various reasons)
[11:38] <nothlit> thats what i'd wish for ^, not a complete seperation or mimicry
[11:39] <nothlit> same as kubuntu is not entirely on its own or entirely the same
[11:39] <troy_s> mhb: The bigger question would be if the 'core' of K would agree on a concept.  That would be a very difficult thing to achieve I would think.
[11:39] <troy_s> (by the way, serious +1 on wanting to break out of the bleak landscape of uber-conservativism)
[11:42] <mhb> troy_s: I think the "KDE" in us is more visible in the technical side of things, like the layout of the Kicker panel ... and the use of the colour blue, which we cannot really give up
[11:43] <nothlit> you can keep your colour blue or whatever, doesn't mean you can't run with a take on the same concept
[11:44] <troy_s> mhb yes -- very strange that.
[11:44] <troy_s> mhb: In an ideal world, what would the KDE folks cite as 'perfection' of execution?
[11:46] <mhb> nothlit: right, "sharing a concept" is not a bad idea in itself, although I am a bit sceptical about it until the concepts in question are made clear
[11:47] <mhb> troy_s: I am afraid I don't understand the question well
[11:50] <mhb> nothlit: also note that you need an artist to build upon a concept and create artwork we can integrate - if you gave us concepts and said "build upon it" we wouldn't produce anything useful
[11:51] <troy_s> mhb: I guess what I am asking is there some 'ideal' that someone has seen or thinks was excellent work?
[11:53] <nothlit> mhb: i'll think about a way to gently put on the wiki pages that kubuntu is interested and looking btw
[11:54] <troy_s> greets tonic-pushcart
[11:55] <tonic-pushcart> morning
[11:55] <tonic-pushcart> have headache :(
[11:55] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: did you get joejaxx bug report about the usplash landing in the upper corner for someone?
[11:55] <troy_s> joejaxx: I suppose it should technically be filed as a bug against the usplash bzr repo.
[11:55] <mhb> troy_s: well, when it comes to artwork, the KDE way has never had a specific vision ... but when it comes to users, http://www.nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/image247.png seem to be appealing to many
[11:56] <mhb> but it's the usual "glass&gloss" metaphor
[11:56] <tonic-pushcart> troy_s: yeah I did. It is either a problem with the video card deciding to not center the image or with usplash
[11:56] <troy_s> mhb: Hrm... not much there to go on unfortunately.  I would think that just about anyone should be able to 'clone' an abstract sort of approach though -- or are you specifically referring to the outlines.
[11:57] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: Ok good.  At least you were touched on it.
[11:57] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: I have to design the full animation for the usplash for myth
[11:57] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: Which is more or less as we discussed, but the animation itself will probably be a lesson in nodal editing / compositing in Blender.
[11:57] <tonic-pushcart> troy_s: okay   how much time do we have on that?
[11:57] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: I will keep all of the elements in raw format as much as we can.
[11:57] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: Plenty.
[11:57] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: I would like to deliver the full package before Hardy
[11:57] <mhb> thanks for the discussion folks, good luck with Hardy artwork, I will be monitoring your efforts :o)
[11:58] <mhb> I have to go now
[11:58] <tonic-pushcart> troy_s: I have exams at the moment   two this week   but next week is free
[11:58] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: But it seems that
[11:58] <troy_s> mhb: Ciao my friend.
[11:58] <tonic-pushcart> ...
[11:58] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: superm1 and foxbuntu have agreed that none of the fresh look will land in gutsy (which I was pretty clear about going into it.)
[11:58] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: So there is plenty of time.
[11:58] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: And again, most of us are full time 'other' types
[11:59] <troy_s> which means that it moves at the pace dictated by the other things.
[11:59] <troy_s> ;)
[11:59] <tonic-pushcart> troy_s: yeah
[11:59] <tonic-pushcart> troy_s: oh hey could you look at something for me
[11:59] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: Most certainly.
[12:00] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: Yikes... you have found one of my weak spots -- I am a gaming slut.
[12:00] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: I have about 400 games in my collection.
[12:14] <tonic-pushcart> troy_s: 400 boardgames?
[12:16] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: About that.
[12:16] <nothlit> LOL
[12:16] <troy_s> although I have started a nasty trend of buying expensive ones and not opening them
[12:16] <nothlit> oh wait, they're serioualy board games?
[12:16] <nothlit> i didn't know there were so many
[12:16] <troy_s> board games and roleplaying games.
[12:16] <troy_s> some of the art (timbradstreets stuff) was very influential early going for me in some aspects.
[12:17] <troy_s> and the design of a solid game is an exercise in brilliant design.
[12:18] <troy_s> nothlit: That artist is bloody brilliant.
[12:19] <nothlit> i'm only on about # 340 of his 1000 self portraits
[12:19] <tonic-pushcart> I agree with that. Boardgame design is hard   you have so many restrictions on what you can do   and you have to account for the social aspect of the game.
[12:20] <nothlit> he does the conceptart for the metroid games
[12:20] <tonic-pushcart> for example   with manufacturing you are limited in the number of bits you can have
[12:21] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: And of course the Kniza's out there are mind blowing.
[12:21] <tonic-pushcart> mechanics have to be simple. There is no computer...
[12:21] <nothlit> troy_s: yeah D&G, forgotten realms concept art is brilliant, i wish that sort of book was available in chapters
[12:21] <tonic-pushcart> troy_s: I pretty much exclusively play Euro style games
[12:21] <troy_s> Yes.  Simple and yet allow for an impressive building of complexity of depth.  Carcassone for example.
[12:21] <troy_s> Chess even.
[12:22] <tonic-pushcart> and in my opinion 'Tigris and Euphrates' is the epitome of the boardgame
[12:22] <tonic-pushcart> Gameplay is soo tight on that board
[12:22] <troy_s> nothlit: Brilliant stuff.  Tim Bradstreet defined the look for a bunch of years in White Wolf's stuff.
[12:22] <troy_s> Tigris is soooo +1
[12:23] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: Kniza's stuff is all killer.
[12:23] <troy_s> tonic-pushcart: Modern Art is another pretty amazing game.  Hell... his Lord of the Rings game is brilliant.
[12:25] <tonic-pushcart> :)