=== mc44_ is now known as mc44
* LaserJock kicks Firefox01:06
* LaserJock tries to find a less sucky browser01:10
ajmitchhello LaserJock :)01:11
LaserJockhola andrew01:11
lifelesskeescook: ping01:11
RAOF_LaserJock: Until ff-3 got native gtk form widgets, I was using Epiphany.  That works well.01:12
LaserJock"N.B. software from this repository is ENTIRELY UNSUPPORTED by the Ubuntu team"01:13
LaserJock^^ seems a little harsh for Universe01:14
ajmitchunsupported by canonical, at least01:14
crimsunit seems right on, actually.  It certainly doesn't "give the wrong impression" for best-effort community support.01:14
LaserJockI didn't know Canonical == Ubuntu team01:15
lifelessthere's an equality proof somewhere.01:15
LaserJockcrimsun: but it's *is* supported by the community01:15
LaserJockthat statement makes it sound like they're be no sense in filing a bug for a Universe package01:16
LaserJockand in fact it would be discouraged because it's unsupported software01:16
LaserJockor am I reading too much into "ENTIRELY UNSUPPORTED"01:16
ajmitchwithin universe there are different levels of community support as well01:17
LaserJockbut imperfect support is far from no support, IMO anyway01:18
ajmitchit certainly conveys the impression that people shouldn't expect fixes, at least01:19
slangasekI suppose it's a question of not misleading users into thinking they'll get more support than they will01:19
ajmitchit probably does go too far in that direction01:19
LaserJockI guess I better not get on a "demotivating" kick again01:20
LaserJockbut seriously, calling Universe entirely unsupported by the Ubuntu team seems a bit much01:21
lifelessLaserJock: I think there is a legal issue here too01:24
=== chuck_ is now known as zul
lifelessI can imagine some jurisdictions equating support with liability.01:24
lifelessand as there is no guarantee of even a trivial fix for universe in the event of a problem01:25
LaserJockok, so why should there be a Main/Universe separation there?01:25
LaserJockso Canonical's taking on legal liability for Main?01:26
lifelessthats not what I'm saying01:26
lifelessand in fact not even implied. Take security fixes for instance.01:27
lifelessthere are security fixes for Main.01:27
lifelessIf you have something in main, and there is a known vuln with it, that will get into -security quite rapidly.01:27
LaserJockwell, there is a larger chance anyway01:28
LaserJockseems like a "Universe is community supported" would suffice01:31
LaserJockare there legal ramifications to that statement?01:31
LaserJockof course, nobody ever is01:33
RAOF_Except for *lawyers*, of which I'd imagine Canonical has access to a few.01:34
LaserJockseems like a perfectly harmless statement01:35
mpt"community supported" is a meaningful phrase if you're familiar with the Ubuntu development structure01:40
mptbut perhaps not if you're not01:40
LaserJockmaybe less01:41
LaserJockbut I think it's still fairly understandable01:41
johanbrI think a true statement understood by some is better than a misleading statement understood by all.01:45
slangasekthat likely depends on the nature of the misunderstanding in the first case :)01:47
Burgundaviait could explicitly say that it is not supported by Canonical01:52
pwnguinwhy does ubuntu publish what canonical does and doesn't support?01:55
zulprobably more for canonical customers01:55
pwnguini realize the two are highly intertwined in some fashion01:55
Burgundaviathat has been defined since day 1, pwnguin01:56
pwnguinand on day 366 the Ubuntu Foundation was created (dont quote me on that day)01:56
Burgundaviabecause, not shockingly, customers and potential customers like more information, not less01:56
Burgundaviathe foundation does not do anything01:56
pwnguinat least from my point of view, it seems like Canonical has ownership / responsibility of main, but every time someone suggests it, people point out all the non-Canonical people in Core Dev01:58
pwnguinwhich, i should point out, im fine with.01:59
Burgundaviaboth are right01:59
Burgundaviabasically, there are non-Canonical people who can commit to Main and Restricted01:59
Burgundaviabut for security patches, that is the job of canonical01:59
Burgundaviaand they have said, for very sane reasons, that they are only goint o support main and restricted02:00
mjg59Canonical take responsibility for main, whoever puts stuff in there02:00
=== RAOF_ is now known as RAOF
pwnguini figured the ubuntu foundation was taking responsibility for that once it was created, but i guess not02:00
mjg59The Ubuntu Foundation exists to take responsibility for Ubuntu should Canonical stop doing so02:01
Burgundaviathe foundation is currently just a storehouse of money in case anything happens to Canonical02:01
pwnguinso the UF is basicaly a 10 million dollar insurance policy ;)02:01
Burgundaviadon't you love Mark?02:01
Burgundaviain all seriousness, the foundation was setup because at the time, people were questioning whether this was all just a flash in the pan or not02:02
pwnguinat the time, i thought the foundation was an effort to seperate canonical legally from ubuntu somewhat02:03
pwnguini suppose it does seperate their fates somewhat02:04
LaserJockso if Canonical goes under do the copyrights go to the foundation?02:13
elmoLaserJock: <unofficial and hand-wavy>yes, that's the plan/point of the foundation02:14
LaserJockah, I see02:15
LaserJockmakes sense02:15
pwnguinplans are like wills02:15
pwnguinwell, i guess this plan is like a will02:15
Burgundaviaexcept wills are legal02:16
BurgundaviaI honestly have no idea as the actual legal stuff in place02:17
pwnguinonly if they're written down somewhere02:17
Burgundaviaalthough as a member of the CC, I guess I should02:17
pwnguinwhich was sorta my point. wills are a great idea everyone figures they'll do later after everything important's done =/02:17
elmopwnguin: Canonical's not a VC, we're not going to suddenly run out of money02:18
pwnguinyou havent contradicted anything ive said. i doubt canonical is in any large danger of dying, unless sabdfl suffers a massive paternity suit02:18
elmothe only danger of the foundation not happening is the hypothetical of Canonical going evil, and I doubt even the strictest legal stuff could realistically be safe from that (and allow Canonical to function even in non-evil mode)02:19
pwnguinthe thing a contract outright would do is save on legal costs02:19
pwnguininstead of having to prove that Ubunutu community / foundation has a right to the copyrights etc02:20
elmoactually, that's not even true.  I'm not expressing myself well at all, as it's way too late02:20
elmopwnguin: copyrights are largely irrelevant?  Ubuntu is all free software02:20
LaserJockyeah, I wondered what the heck you were doing up at this hour :-)02:20
elmoif the license is truly free, it doesn't matter if the copyright is assigned to Canonical or Billy Bob02:20
pwnguinelmo: in a worst case scenario, i imagine the name and logo alone would divide the community02:21
LaserJockelmo: I just wondered as I guess technically I've signed over copyrights to Canonical before so I wondered02:21
elmopwnguin: so, that's trademark - a very different thing from copyright.   and ubuntu, IMO, is more than it's logo/name.  i.e. if it had to be changed, it'd hardly be the end of the world02:22
pwnguinelmo: hence the etc02:22
elmoLaserJock: sure, it's a reasonable question.  the UF stuff isn't as clear as I'd like02:22
pwnguinelmo: at any rate, unlike a will, canonical's death is not inevitable02:23
elmopwnguin: right02:23
* pwnguin wonders what that 10 million does right now02:24
pwnguina guy from ibiblio stopped by today to talk to the uni's library. they have a fairly unique situation02:26
mjg59elmo: Well. Mark's pockets only go /so/ deep02:27
pwnguinactually, im thinking of the internet archive02:28
elmomjg59: well, sure.  but it would take something pretty dramatic (massive lawsuits?) to stop Canonical, rather than VC people going 'hmm, this isn't making us money fast enough', I guess is my point02:29
ScottKslangasek: Thanks (re: ScottK: 76983 release-noted)02:30
mjg59Oh, yeah02:30
ScottKLaserJock: You can't technically sign over a copyright (at least not in the US).  It requires an explicit transfer (which is why, among other things SCO-Novell was a slam dunk for Novell).02:34
pwnguinwhats the difference between an explicit transfer and "signing over" copyright?02:36
LaserJockso what am I doing when I make packages and say Copyright Canonical Ltd. ?02:36
pwnguinLaserJock: is it a work for hire?02:36
ScottKLaserJock: Well that would be an explicit transfer I suppose, but why are you doing that?02:36
ScottKpwnguin: Nothing really, just that it can't be implicit.02:37
ScottKAs an example, the core of SCO's case against Novell was something like "Everyone knew the copyrights transferred even though it doesn't say that in the contract."  That can't work.02:38
* ScottK spends too much time reading Groklaw.02:38
pwnguinwas that in question here?02:39
ScottKNo.  Probably not.02:40
ScottK"technically I've signed over copyrights" is what i was keying on.  Sounded implicit to me.02:40
LaserJockpwnguin: no it wasn't work for hire02:41
pwnguinLaserJock: what exactly did you turn copyright over for then?02:42
LaserJockScottK: cause everbody else was, I didn't want to be the odd man out ;-)02:42
pwnguinah, heh02:42
ScottKReally.  The only people I've seen to that are Canonical employees who are doing it for hire.  For them it would be wrong not to.02:42
pwnguinwell, i donno about wrong02:43
pwnguincanonical can certainly ASK them to02:43
pwnguinand condition payment upon it02:43
ScottKIt varies by jurisdiction.02:43
LaserJockin any case, I saw enough of it that I just assumed that that was the status quo02:44
ScottKIn the US (which is what I'm most familiar with, but not where most Canonical employees are), a work made for hire automatically belongs to whoever pays.02:44
ScottKWhich is a perfectly reasonable reason to be doing it.02:44
pwnguinforgive me for not using names in this example, but i dont know the core devel activities well02:45
pwnguinbut if the ubuntu gcc maintainer hired by canonical makes a patch to gcc, he'd need permission from canonical to submit upstream?02:45
holycowdepends on canonical policies02:46
holycowtheir policies may indeed be lax enough so he/she doesn't haveto02:46
mjg59pwnguin: If carried out on work time in most jurisdictions, yes02:46
mjg59But it's perfectly possible for there to be an implicit agreement that it's not an issue02:47
mjg59And, of course, if it's a derived work of a GPLed product then if you ever distribute it the entire source has to be under the GPL02:47
pwnguinnow wait a minute. ScottK just suggested implicit assignment wasn't allowed02:47
mjg59At which point anyone can do what they want02:47
mjg59pwnguin: That isn't implicit assignment02:47
pwnguinthe point here is that the FSF requires you to hand over copyright02:47
pwnguinif they are to accept your work02:47
holycowonly if you distribute it02:47
pwnguinonly if you want them to take it02:48
mjg59That's because they have different policies to everyone else02:48
LaserJockyeah, I always thought that was kinda creepy02:49
elmothere's some definite advantages to copyright assignment02:50
ScottKGives them a way to make sure something uses GPL v3.02:50
LaserJockI understand their reasoning, it's just still a bit creepy02:50
mjg59Gives them the right to start lawsuits if someone infringes02:50
pwnguinwhether you like it or not =/02:50
ScottKThey aren't the only ones that do it.02:50
mjg59It's their project - it's their policy02:50
pwnguindo you need everyone's permission to start a suit?02:50
ScottKmjg59: As long as they have some copyright code that's all that matters, it doesn't need to be all.02:50
ScottKIt does make it easier for them to settle.02:51
mjg59If they infringe the whole of gcc, fine02:51
elmopwnguin: but the judge can dismiss a lawsuit you start as 'without standing' if you don't own majority of the code02:51
mjg59If they only take part of it, it's harder02:51
mjg59Unless you have copyright assignment02:51
ScottKRed Hat does the same for Cygwin (requires assignment).02:52
ScottKIn that case it's so they can dual license it and make money with it.02:52
LaserJockhow's that work?02:53
mjg59Yes, that's the reason Sun do it for Openoffice02:53
mjg59LaserJock: If you own the copyright, you can sublicense under any terms you want02:53
pwnguinLaserJock: they own the copyright. it's their property now02:53
LaserJockyeah, but how do they make money on a dual-license02:54
pwnguinone license is GPL. the other is "pay us and you dont have to publish source"02:54
pwnguini hear reiser works in a similar manner02:56
LaserJockis that the same with QT?02:56
pwnguini think so02:56
slangasek"pay us and we'll give you the version of the fs that doesn't eat data muhahaha"02:57
lifelesspwnguin: copyright can be granted without diminishing ones own rights.02:57
lifelesspwnguin: so no, its not their property now.02:57
pwnguinthis conflicts with my understanding of property02:58
lifelessclearly you consider copyright property; its not.02:58
LaserJockit's the right to copy? :-)02:58
lifelessits a mistake to think of abstractions like patents and copyright as forms of 'property', unlike property they can be shared without diminishing in value.02:59
pwnguinsomehow i think its a mistake to use economic abstractions about constructs of law02:59
slangaseklifeless: but "copyright can be granted without diminishing one's own rights" doesn't follow either, copyright is the right of exclusive control to decide who can make copies03:00
slangaseks/copyright/licenses to copy/, and ok03:00
lifelessslangasek: hmm, not quite right there AIUI. I can assign copyright on something i created to you; wherein you gain and I lose the right to decide.03:00
lifelessslangasek: but I can alternatively decide to share that control with you03:01
lifelesswhere you can say 'X can copy' and I can say 'Y can copy'03:01
pwnguini imagine the courts hate that03:01
lifelesspwnguin: well, the government grants the root monopoly03:01
ScottKJust to complicate things, some countries have moral rights of authorship that cannot be sold transferred or anything.03:01
pwnguini vaguely recall Elite having something similar to that03:01
lifelessScottK: I have vague memories of the Berne convention being involved in that03:02
* ScottK has vague memories of it being French and common in countries with Napoleonic law systems.03:03
mjg59The extent of moral rights differs between states03:03
ScottKIt doesn't exist at all in the US.  I do know that.03:03
mjg59In the UK, it's limited to asserting the right to be identified as the author03:03
mjg59In France, it includes not allowing the work to be used in ways you don't approve of03:03
lifelessanyhow the primary point is that unlike physical goods while copyright *can* be treated as a fungible good, its got wider transactions available to its owners than any physical media03:04
mjg59The interaction between this and the GPL has not been tesetd03:04
pwnguinis there any reason to treat copyright as a sharable good?03:04
mjg59Yes. It's hard to make money off it otherwise.03:05
pwnguinnot the copies03:06
pwnguinthe idea of sharing 100 percent of the right to copy with another entity, without losing the right yourself03:06
lifelessby sharable good, you mean e.g. 'like a physical book' ?03:06
mjg59pwnguin: Yes. It's hard to make money otherwise.03:06
mjg59Well, permiting only exclusive assignments would still work there03:07
lifelesswe use the shared assignment in bzr03:07
mjg59But the opportunity to let someone else make money off your copyrighted goods is a fundamental aspect of the traditional mechanism of making money off copyrighted goods03:07
lifelessCanonical as the sponsoring organisation wants copyright on the code in bzr, so that we can manage the licence effectively over time. But we have no wish or need to remove the copyright from the author.03:08
lifelessthis lowers the barrier to getting authors to assign copyright - they lose nothing compared to a hand-it-all-over scenario03:09
pwnguinthe code that makes bzr run, or code in bzr repos?03:10
lifelesswhat do you think?03:10
pwnguinwell, i wasnt aware that canonical was involved with bzr development at all until recently03:11
pwnguinwhat i think is probably not important or correct03:11
lifelessthe code of bzr itself03:11
lifelesswhat people version with bzr is none of our business ;)03:11
pwnguinwell, launchpad hosts bzr repos03:12
pwnguinit could have been some wierd requirement; look at the ppas03:13
LaserJocklifeless: can the code author "back out" of assignment03:13
pwnguinLaserJock: revoke a transfer, or abandon it?03:13
LaserJockwell, can they at any time say they don't want to share anymore03:13
elmopwnguin: err, what's weird about the PPA requirements?03:14
lifelesspwnguin: ppas? What do they need ?03:14
pwnguinelmo: last i knew03:14
pwnguini had to indemnify canonical03:14
ajmitchfrom what I can tell, the PPA terms of service are just a fairly standard CYA template03:14
ScottKThey are not unusual, but they aren't very community friendly IMO.03:15
ScottKAccording to the status on the bug I filed about it, it's being revised somehow.03:15
ScottKWe'll see.03:16
lifelesspwnguin: launchpad requires open source for *the repo's it hosts*.03:16
pwnguinlike multiverse ;)03:16
lifelesspwnguin: which is nothing to do with your using bzr onyour own project or your own site03:16
pwnguini know what you mean03:16
elmoJOOI, do other 'community' sites have not have similar terms?03:17
elmoSF, savannah, novell's forge, whatever03:17
pwnguingoogle's is pretty lenient03:17
pwnguinbut i better double check03:17
pwnguinthank you for finding that03:19
pwnguinit doesn't matter to me much. im quite enjoying my ppa, patent infrigment indeminifcation be damned03:21
pwnguini just recalled scottk thinking the ppa terms were outrageous. perhaps it is scottK who is outrageous!03:23
ScottKpwnguin: It may be the latter.03:23
ScottKI think they aren't unusual, but unfortunate and not very community oriented.  I'd have hoped for better from Canonical.03:23
elmoScottK: what's your definition of 'community oriented'?03:25
slangasek"lacking in fiduciary oversight" ;)03:26
ScottKelmo: In this case, I'd like to feel that if I did nothing wrong, but got sued anyway it'd be Canonical and me versus the idiot that sued.  Bt the TOS, it'd be me and Canonical being sued and Canonical looking for me to pay their lawyer bills even if I'd done nothing to violat the PPA Terms of Service.03:26
ScottKI think it's perfectly fine to ask for indemnification if someone uploads something that's not legally distributable.03:27
ScottKWhat bothers me is I can do everything legal and correct, violate no terms of service, and yet Canonical wants me to pay their lawyers.03:28
=== _Apex is now known as Apex
elmoif Canonical gets sued for distributing something of yours?03:28
ScottKThey chose to offer this service, so I think sharing of risk for use within the terms of service is reasonable.03:30
ScottKIf I upload something that's not legal to distribute, that's totally different.03:30
lifelessYou talk about legal-to-distribute03:30
lifelessbut the whole point of a court case would be about proving something is/isn't legal to distribute.03:31
ScottKSo IMO it'd be quite reasonable to say as long as we win, you don't have to pay.03:31
ScottKIn some obscure juridications (like the US) it's very hard to collect legal fees even if you win.03:32
lifelesssay I'm a malicious person03:32
lifelessI could upload a bunch of stuff that you would say is illegal to distribute03:33
lifelesstrigger a bunch of lawsuites03:33
lifelesswho pays from the start of the lawsuit through to the conclusion where I'm shown to be at fault?03:33
ScottKI'd say we each pay and then at the end where we lose, Canonical hands me a huge bill.03:34
lifelesswhich you, as a malicious person, don't pay. Probably can't - it might be millions.03:34
ScottKI'd imagine that'd be the situation now too.03:35
lifelesse.g. upload several thousand copies of windows03:35
=== Whoopie_ is now known as Whoopie
ScottKIf I were Canonical, I'd take them down when notified and since Canonical doesn't pre-scren the uploads, that'd probaby be enough to cover them.03:36
ScottKIt's just like You Tube and copyrighted videos.  As long as they take them down when notified, they're clean.03:36
lifelesswell, thats enough IANAL speculation for me today; I have bugs to fix.03:36
ScottKOh, yeah.  Me too.03:37
tonyyarussocjwatson, Riddell, pitti, Hobbsee, slangasek, tfheen: It would be nice if one of you would volunteer to do the offical release announcement in #ubuntu-release-party when the time comes.  You can let us know if you'd be willing to do so in #ubuntu-ops and make appropriate arrangements.03:54
ScottKtonyyarusso: I get dizzy just looking in there.04:00
ajmitchtonyyarusso: just set it to +m for an hour or two, they seem noisy enough04:00
tonyyarussoajmitch: We'll do that when the time comes.04:00
tonyyarussoScottK: yeah, well.  Try moderating it ;)04:00
ScottKtonyyarusso: No way.  I gave up on the user channels a long time ago.  To much for me.04:01
ajmitchtonyyarusso: just play with their minds for awhiel :)04:02
ajmitchthey're already anxious about the state of ubuntu.com04:02
Hobbseenote to self:  don't power off the machine during a dist-upgrade.04:12
ScottKYou aren't the only one.  I recall fixing one bug that I'm pretty sure a mid dist-upgrade reboot/power off is the only way it could have happened.04:14
ScottKGood morning Hobbsee.04:14
pwnguinnot without a live CD handy04:14
pwnguinand intimate knowledge of chroot04:14
pwnguinthats about all i learned from gentoo04:15
pwnguinhow to effectively use chroot04:15
ajmitchHobbsee: there are more fun ways to wreck a system04:16
pwnguinajmitch: uploading broken dpkg updates?04:17
ajmitchnow that gets exciting04:17
ajmitchthough it can still be worked around04:17
ScottKSigkilliing dpkg is always good.04:17
pwnguinanother favorite daredevil trick: upgrading from lenny to feisty04:18
pwnguinor any other trick along the lines of upgrading debian to ubuntu04:18
* ajmitch successfully did that04:18
ScottKpwnguin: Not quite the same, but I did do Dapper --> Gutsy direct as an experiment.04:19
Artemis3would it be too much to ask to put the .torrents in the pool? just a thought.04:19
ajmitchevand: that's just wrong04:19
evandI'm tempted to try it04:19
evandjust to see what happens04:19
ajmitchthough I'm sure it can be done, just ask Mithrandir04:19
pwnguinmake sure to film it04:19
pwnguinit only counts if apt-get does ti04:20
pwnguinno chroot cheating04:20
pwnguinbe afraid04:21
* ScottK has one computer still on Xandros 3 (for my kids). He is pondering Xandros (sarge derived) --> Gutsy (after backing up data).04:22
Burgundaviaouch, ubuntu.com just fell over04:22
ajmitchafraid of the drupal error due to people constantly refreshing the page?04:22
ajmitchBurgundavia: see #ubuntu-release-party for why04:22
ajmitchit's mad04:23
Burgundaviaoh juoy04:23
evandthere's a point where IRC becomes completely unreadable.  #ubuntu-release-party seems to be moving at a rate above that.04:24
pwnguinare ubuntulinux.org and ubuntu.com the same site?04:24
pwnguinevand: #ubuntu itself often approaches that04:24
evandpwnguin: I'm smart enough to never attempt to venture in *that* place. ;)04:25
Artemis3pretty please .torrents in the pool, help save the server's bandwidth ;)04:25
evandArtemis3: It was said earlier that the torrents will probably not hit the servers until tomorrow.04:26
Artemis3ok but tomorrow 19 or tomorrow 18? because of utc time, etc...04:27
Hobbseemorning ScottK04:27
elmoArtemis3: err, it's not that simple04:27
Hobbseeajmitch: oh indeed.  it seems i've been trying them04:27
Artemis3build a torrent and upload to any public tracker?04:28
pwnguinput a torrent on thepiratebay04:28
Artemis3yeah, that would be faster, maybe i will04:28
=== jdong_ is now known as jdonginator
LaserJockhaha, should I yell "ITS HERE!!!" in #ubuntu-release-party?04:55
FremToo late, you've been beaten to the punch like 500 times.04:55
LaserJockbut I bet they go for it again04:55
LaserJockthat's the fun04:55
lifelessis it done ?04:55
LaserJockit's like Pavlov's dogs04:55
lifelesswhat, they got fat ?04:56
LaserJockring a bell and they start drooling04:56
FremIt's hilarious. There are countdowns to midnight every single hour.04:56
Artemis3thanks for the torrents04:57
ajmitchLaserJock: it's madness in there05:00
LaserJockit is05:01
LaserJockwhat fun05:01
* ajmitch might grab the iso images in a week or so05:03
ajmitchuntil then, I'll refresh some QA tools & other things to fix :)05:04
LaserJockajmitch: I just signed up on shipit05:05
ajmitchI tend to leave images to burn on the laptop for when I need them05:05
LaserJockI'll get something like 10 Ubuntu and 2 Edubuntu CDs sometime in the future05:05
Artemis3hmm the tracker torrent page seems a bit weird...05:07
LaserJockwow, that's just ...05:09
LaserJockI wonder what the average age in there is05:09
ScottKtonyyarusso: The topic in #ubuntu-release-party needs updating as #ubuntu+1 redirects to #ubuntu now.05:09
StevenKDid everyone get kicked from #ubuntu+1 as well?05:10
ajmitchLaserJock: about 12, I think05:10
StevenKLaserJock, ajmitch: Less I daresay05:10
imbrandonwow that room gives me a headache05:10
tonyyarussoScottK: k05:10
LaserJockI was gonna say IQ, but I that might not be so nice05:10
LaserJock*I think05:11
imbrandonLaserJock: talk like yoda day?05:11
tonyyarussoScottK: btw, all Ubuntu members have ops in -r-p now05:11
LaserJocktonyyarusso: does that mean I can kick people?!?!05:11
ScottKIt's hard to tell from age.  At dinner on Monday night our 16 year old was asking questions to her mother (because she didn't know) and our 4 year old answered her (correctly).05:12
tonyyarussoLaserJock: yes.05:12
tonyyarussoLaserJock: s/kick/remove/ though05:12
StevenKScottK: Blink05:12
ScottKtonyyarusso: I don't want my nick to be the one that set the topic in there.05:12
ScottKStevenK: Yes.  It was really funny when it happened.05:12
ScottKOur 4 year old often seems like she's 4 going on 24 anyway.05:12
ScottKThat and been a teenager seems to be a cause of temporary brain damage.05:13
tonyyarussoScottK: fair enough05:13
minghuaScottK: What was the question?05:14
ScottKI wish I remembered.05:14
StevenKScottK: Most 4 years olds do.05:14
imbrandonok time for some sleep, gnight all05:15
ScottKBut it was definitely something I expected the 16 year old to know and the 4 year old not.05:15
ScottKimbrandon: Wimp (he's an hour west of me).05:15
ajmitchimbrandon: already?05:15
StevenKScottK: And if you think 16 is bad, wait for 1905:15
ScottKStevenK: At least then she'll be away at college most of the time.05:16
StevenKScottK: How does that help? :-)05:16
ScottKActually for her 13 seems to have been (so far) the peak.05:16
imbrandonajmitch: yea i'm just gonna take an 3 hour nap or something05:16
ScottKStevenK: I have to deal with it less frequently.05:16
StevenKScottK: But surely then, the problems will be bigger?05:17
ScottKOf course her younger step-sister is 13 and just ramping up into her teenagerdom.05:17
* StevenK has this feeling he isn't helping.05:17
ScottKStevenK: No doubt, but I'd rath have a few big problems to deal with than the steady drip, drip, drip, drip continuous pull of them.05:18
ajmitchyou'd rather lurch from crisis to crisis?05:18
ScottKAbsolutely.  It's the story of my life.05:19
ajmitchsounds liek software development05:19
LaserJockI think I should tell #ubuntu-release-party that ajmitch is a release manager05:31
ajmitchand then I can tell them that it's delayed until monday?05:32
StevenKajmitch: No no, "No Gutsy for you. Come back one year."05:32
LaserJock"sorry folks, we decided we'd just start on Hardy"05:32
ajmitch"we decided to push the release out by 6 weeks again"05:33
StevenK... past UDS05:33
HobbseeStevenK: i think we did that last release, actually.05:34
HobbseeMithrandir: and i kept putting in wrong information - like that we werent going ot release it at all05:34
ajmitch"sorry, the release managers are currently hungover & aren't prepared to release today"05:34
Hobbseeajmitch: put that in!05:35
LaserJockajmitch: I've seen that one before, but for alphas05:36
* Hobbsee muhahahaha05:38
sladen6weeks ... that'd be enough time to change the wallpapers05:39
Hobbsee!hungover is <reply> The Release Managers are currently hungover, and wont be releasing gutsy today05:40
Hobbsee!hungover is <reply> The Release Managers are currently hungover, and wont be releasing gutsy today05:40
ubotuI'll remember that, Hobbsee05:40
Hobbseegood bot.05:41
minghuapoor bot.05:41
Artemis3that might explain the funny names in the torrent tracker page05:42
slangasekI'm insulted by the implication that I get hangovers05:42
* lamont has never seen slangasek with a hangover. who says he gets them?05:42
Hobbseewish the torrents were working though, they could do something useful, like seeding.05:42
Burgundaviahttp://www.wired.com/software/softwarereviews/news/2007/10/ubuntu_gutsy <-- wired jumps the line05:43
pwnguin uh05:43
pwnguinthat wsj guy reported on gutsy like over a month ago05:43
sladenlamont: the release process brings them on, even without any alcohol involved05:43
* lamont notes that http://bld-4.mmjgroup.com/~wb/buildLogs/stats/gutsy2-short-nohppa.png is getting boring05:43
minghuaThat's what you get for having a hard schedule.  Have you ever seen anybody jumping the gun for a Debian release? ;-)05:44
sladenUbuntu Muslim Edition (UbuntuME) has alread "released 7.04"05:44
Burgundaviaminghua: they come so in frequently...05:44
StevenKAnd it's so funny watching them scream05:45
minghuaBurgundavia: That's true, too.05:45
HobbseeStevenK: o hyes :)05:45
jcastrosladen: dude you all set for uds? Don't come sick!05:46
slangasekminghua: ...yes05:46
* lamont turns off creation of newer-more-boring gutsy graphs05:47
sladenjcastro: dude, that was *sooo* not me05:47
StevenKLast time it was lifeless05:48
minghuaslangasek: You are not referring to the infamous Debian 1.0, are you?  (I just remembered that...)05:48
jcastrosladen: :)05:48
slangasekminghua: that's the most significant one, anyway05:49
* StevenK waits for slangasek to join -release-party and tell everyone to be quiet for a few hours so he can get some work done.05:50
minghuaYeah, I know it's not a sound argument.  Just trying to say pre-mature reviews are hard to avoid with a fixed schedule.  Maybe I should have just said that.05:51
pwnguinthat was published in september05:52
pwnguinand its basically still true =/05:53
StevenKslangasek: You should release Lenny by accident. :-P05:53
StevenKslangasek: :-P05:54
* lamont reboots into gutsy, hopefully06:00
StevenK"No, Gutsy isn't out. We add an hour every time some one says that, so we looking to release October 20."06:17
LaserJockoh man, I might try that06:17
* StevenK grins at LaserJock 06:18
minghuaHmm, that sounds a lot of hours...06:23
ajmitchthat sounds about right based on how often it's been asked06:26
sladen<exhume> im sure they arent just sitting there laughing at us cuz we are all waiting here06:34
ScottKHeh.  Have to laugh at that one.06:35
ajmitchwould we do that?06:35
* StevenK smirks06:35
minghuaajmitch: Okay, so I was just being pedantic and did the calculation.  That roughly equals one asking per second for 24 hours.06:39
minghuaajmitch: So you are probably right.06:39
StevenKminghua: Muahaha06:41
dholbachgood morning06:47
StevenKMorning dholbach06:47
dholbachhi StevenK06:48
StevenKdholbach: I think it's your turn to stir people up in -release-party06:48
dholbachI was never under the impression that people who are willing to party need stirring up :)06:49
LaserJockI think I should introduce dholbach as a Canonical employee06:50
LaserJockthat would probably work06:50
StevenKThen he'll get mobbed.06:50
Hobbseejust give him ops06:51
Hobbseebesides, we said there was no release today.06:51
HobbseeFujitsu: does jabber.org hate the world again, or does my pidgin suck?06:51
Tesla|WorkHobbsee: my jabber.org acc doesnt works aswall06:55
Tesla|WorkHobbsee: they have ALOT of problems late... um... month06:55
HobbseeTesla|Work: s/month/years/06:55
StevenKMorning pitti06:55
Hobbseebut fair enough06:55
pittiGood morning06:56
LaserJockahhh, now we're getting somewhere06:56
evandmorning pitti!06:56
tonyyarussoOh, hey pitti06:57
* Hobbsee tries to figure out how to unignore joins in irssi.06:57
tonyyarussoHobbsee: /unignore #channel JOINS, I think?06:58
Hobbseetonyyarusso: ah, you rock.  i was using /ignore, thinking it toggled.06:59
tonyyarussowell that was a short visit from pitti07:02
FujitsuHobbsee: Pidgin does suck, but I don't use jabber.org.07:04
LaserJockI do07:05
LaserJockthey say it's supposed to be stable07:05
LaserJockbut I always have problems with it07:05
Fujitsu`service unavailable' for you from my Jabber server, so I presume jabber.org is dead, yeah.07:05
tonyyarussopitti: btw, did you catch my hilight from earlier?07:05
Tesla|Workdisk problems on jabber.org afaik07:06
* Tesla|Work is going to swithc to jabber.ru07:06
Artemis3as usual, jabber.org is not working, nothing unusual since its inception07:06
pittitonyyarusso: no, I don't think I did, sorry; had some connection troubles07:06
tonyyarussopitti: Okay.  I was wondering if you or anyone else from the release team would be willing to pop into #ubuntu-release-party do officially deliver the news when Gutsy is ready.  We could +m it and such, make it all official-like so people can recognize when it's finally for real after lots of false prophets.07:07
LaserJockgood idea07:08
pittitonyyarusso: oh, by all means; can you make is so that slangasek and me can change the topic there?07:08
Artemis3but fix the names in torrent.ubuntu.com:6969 first!07:08
tonyyarussopitti: certainly.  You can also just swing by #ubuntu-ops if you need anything else.07:08
pittitonyyarusso: great07:09
jcastropitti's our man!07:10
tonyyarussopitti: err, why doesn't slangasek have a cloak?07:10
Tesla|Workwould you recommend to DL 7.10 form torrent instaed of mirrors? ;-)07:10
Artemis3they are to dense for that, tried in the last 3 releases already :P07:11
StevenKMaybe pitti and slangasek need canonical/cabal cloaks07:11
pittitonyyarusso: he should ask for one, right07:11
tonyyarussopitti: yeah07:11
Hobbseepitti: the question is - does he become a member just by becomming a canonical employee?07:11
pittiHobbsee: no, but tonyyarusso didn't mention that he needs to get an *ubuntu* cloak07:12
LaserJockI thought he did have a cloak07:12
LaserJockI swear I saw one the other day07:12
Hobbseepitti: this is true.07:12
pitti/canonical/release_man_in_charge :)07:12
LaserJockit wasn't an Ubuntu one07:12
* Fujitsu thinks we need the usual `no pony for you' photo, with a gibbon instead.07:13
tonyyarussoHobbsee: I just would prefer not to have things in access lists that are nick-linked, providing no guarantee of even being identified with services.07:13
Hobbsee_tonyyarusso, true.07:13
Hobbsee_tonyyarusso, oh, i thought they had to be identified to op at all07:14
=== Hobbsee_ is now known as Foobar
=== Foobar is now known as LongPointyStick
LaserJockFujitsu: totally!07:14
LaserJock"no Gibbon for you"07:14
LongPointySticktonyyarusso, no, does require a p/w07:15
LongPointyStickPassword identification is required for [OP]07:15
LongPointyStickType /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password> and retry07:15
tonyyarussoLongPointyStick: oh yeah?  good.07:15
LongPointyStickit'd be a bit stupid otherwise, y'know...07:15
LaserJocknow I have a headache07:18
tonyyarussopitti, slangasek: Might be useful to give the ops a quick heads-up before you do, perhaps.  Topic-changing and such around the Ubuntuniverse.07:19
pittitonyyarusso: IOW, ask in #ubuntu-ops?07:19
tonyyarussopitti: yeah07:19
tonyyarussopitti: while we're at it, what are the odds I'll miss the fun if I go get about 6 hours of sleep right now?  :P07:20
pittitonyyarusso: pretty high, I'd say07:20
sladentonyyarusso: oy, stop trying to cheat the system.  You have perfect free will if you dare^Wwant to go to sleep07:21
tonyyarussonuts.  why can't y'all tailor a release to my timezone some day!  ;)07:21
tonyyarussosladen: Yeah, the last few I've ended up all-nighter-ing it anyway, and they've been at like 6 AM07:21
sladentonyyarusso: that is one *hellva* long time to wait for a release07:22
tonyyarussosladen: :)07:22
LaserJockpitti: so I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 3, could that number be the time until release? ;-)07:23
tonyyarussoLaserJock: In what units?07:23
LaserJockhrs, lets say07:23
pittiLaserJock: of course it *could* be :)07:23
sladenpittifully small ones07:23
tonyyarussohaha, good answer07:23
pittisladen: why? 3 days should really be enough :-P07:24
tonyyarussoI told website-matt that he should make the counter say 2 days left just for like 10 minutes and see what happened in -release-party ;)07:24
sladenit's like racing FedEx "Guaranteed 12:00 delivery by ... well, *sometime* in next week"07:25
LaserJocktonyyarusso: you should change the drunken release managers thing07:25
tonyyarussoLaserJock: to?07:26
LaserJocknot sure, but now that pitti is up it doesn't seem right ;-)07:26
tonyyarussooh, just so he knows what we're talking about:07:26
ScottKpitti: Care for a bit of archive admining for backports while we wait (dunno how busy you actually are ATM)?07:26
tonyyarusso!hungover | pitti (courtesy of Hobbsee)07:26
ubotupitti (courtesy of Hobbsee): The Release Managers are currently hungover, and wont be releasing gutsy today.  No gutsy for you!  NOT YOURS!!!07:26
LaserJockoh man, my dissertation is never gonna get done07:27
LaserJocknight folks07:27
LaserJockhave fun07:28
pittiHobbsee: :)07:28
sladenScottK: best. line. ever.07:28
pittiScottK: can do, yes; I'll have a look a bit later07:28
ScottKBug #151308 for Feisty and Bug #153378 for Feisty and Edgy07:28
ubotuLaunchpad bug 151308 in feisty-backports "please backport Clamav from Gutsy to Feisty " [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15130807:28
ubotuLaunchpad bug 153378 in feisty-backports "please backport pypolicyd-spf 0.4.1-1 from Gutsy to Feisty and Edgy" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15337807:29
ScottKpitti: ^^ thanks.07:29
ScottKpitti: And then two packages in Bug #153287 for dapper.07:29
ubotuLaunchpad bug 153287 in dapper-backports "Please source backport pyspf 2.0.4-1/pypolicyd-spf 0.4.1-1 from Gutsy to Dapper" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15328707:29
Hobbseeelmo: started the torrents yet?07:30
pittiScottK: noted07:30
Hobbseepitti: people have found the images07:31
ScottKHobbsee: I don't think pitti saw that.07:32
tonyyarussoHobbsee: Remove then if they post links in #ubuntu or #ubuntu-release-party (and in case you didn't notice, he missed that due to disconnect)07:32
Hobbseetonyyarusso: i cant.  i dont have admin rights over the forums these are on :)07:32
Hobbseemay as well tell them to seed though07:32
Hobbseeif the tracker is not being an utter pain (as usual) thiat is07:32
Artemis3ever heard the phrase: genie is out of the bottle?07:33
tonyyarussoHobbsee: Forums?  Ah crud07:33
Hobbseetonyyarusso: no, not those ones.07:33
Hobbseetonyyarusso: clearly you werent at UDS, anyway07:33
* Hobbsee hides from pricey07:33
Artemis3im tyring to drive people way from .pool .... and torrents do help07:33
tonyyarussoHobbsee: no, I'm not nearly special enough for UDS.  Explain?07:33
Hobbseepitti: are you aware that someone forgot to change /proc/version?07:35
Artemis3im betting the torrents will change since you messed the names of the .iso tho07:35
Hobbseeor is that the gcc prerelease?07:35
pittiHobbsee: what do you want to have changed there?07:35
pittiHobbsee: (and no, we *won't* update Gutsy to 2.6.23 :) )07:35
Hobbseepitti: still says prerelease - but i'm assuming that's of gcc, not ubuntu07:36
Hobbseehahaha, no.07:36
StevenKHobbsee: The version in /proc/version is gcc07:36
Hobbseebut lets have a crack kernel, just for teh hell of it!07:36
Hobbseetonyyarusso: ask pricey.  he'll tell you.  mention that it was about planet editorial policy07:36
tonyyarussoHobbsee: oh boy :S07:37
Burgundaviaoh bloody hell that spec07:39
Hobbseehaha :)07:39
BurgundaviaI still haven't finished that07:39
Burgundaviareally need to one of these days07:39
Hobbseeyes you do07:40
Burgundaviagiven we almost had another issue with the naked Spanish magazine cover07:40
Burgundaviawhy can't life just be fun, with bunnies and ponies?07:40
FujitsuBurgundavia: You mean with gibbons?07:41
Burgundaviano, bunnies and ponies07:41
tonyyarussoBurgundavia: naked Spanish magazine?  what?07:41
tonyyarusso@pony Burgundavia07:42
Burgundaviatonyyarusso: http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,,2131498,00.html07:42
Burgundaviathere was some concern about the cartoon nakedness07:42
Burgundaviaugh, I don't want to talk about it07:42
Burgundaviaponies and bunnies, dammit!07:43
sladennekkid ponies and bunnies!07:43
* tonyyarusso gives Burgundavia a bunny, but ubotu says no ponies07:43
Hobbseeslangasek: did you manage to find a good quote, btw?07:43
jcastrowait, Burgundavia, you were on some magazine cover naked?07:43
Burgundaviajcastro: yes, me, jorge07:43
Burgundaviait was hideous07:43
jcastroI knew it07:43
slangasekHobbsee: I am looking at you blankly as if with no memory07:44
BurgundaviaI miss you so much, so I had to declare my love for you publicly07:44
tonyyarussoBurgundavia: at least it wasn't mneptok07:44
Burgundaviaand look, you came back to us07:44
Hobbseeslangasek: but you must have a good quote for the final release!07:44
pwnguinyou know, i gotta say, gutsy's doing pretty well07:44
sladenBurgundavia: you just can't get the models these days!  http://jriddell.org/photos/2007-05-sevilla-paul-jonathan-sarah.jpg07:44
* Hobbsee thwacks slangasek 07:44
* Hobbsee thwacks sladen 07:44
Burgundaviamy eyes, please sladen07:45
tonyyarussoThat should be the CD cover ;)07:45
Burgundaviapwnguin: fridge.ubuntu.com <-- 10 Rocking Features in 10 Days07:45
Fujitsutonyyarusso: YES!07:45
Burgundaviathere is your answer07:45
pwnguin10 vs 300 =(07:45
Burgundavianobody cares about 300 random useless features07:46
pwnguinyou mean like apparmor? :P07:46
tonyyarussoFujitsu: At least then I'd finally know who the heck the people in the picture were, or at leas one of them.07:46
Burgundaviapeople care about their 1 (or 2) features07:46
Burgundaviapwnguin: if I ran a large enterprise app, apparmor or selinux would make me happy07:46
slangasekHobbsee: I don't understand why, *everything* I say is clever and quotable07:46
Hobbseeslangasek: including openCubicle, yes.07:46
Burgundaviafor that matter, apparmor + ltsp is a good win07:46
pwnguinBurgundavia: anyways07:47
Burgundaviaalthough, pwnguin, if you want to some brownie points: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/7%2e10Tour#preview07:47
Burgundaviafinish that in the next 2 hours07:47
pwnguinmy point was, a lot of those 300 are already in 7.1007:47
pwnguincups 1.307:47
pwnguinvirtual desktops07:47
pwnguinie workspaces07:48
sladenBurgundavia: now you need a post that the "it goes up in 11"07:48
jcastroBurgundavia's features don't require you to buy a new computer.07:48
Burgundaviacause I don't break people07:48
Burgundavia's computer with my hideous visage, having posed naked and all07:48
Burgundaviayou are a cruel, cruel man, sladen07:49
pwnguinBurgundavia: sadly, i turned compiz and tracker off07:49
ScottKpwnguin: Why sadly?07:50
pwnguinand i dont think app armor got enabled on my laptop's upgrade07:50
pwnguinScottK: its hard to take screenshots07:50
ScottKpwnguin: It almost certainly did.07:50
pwnguineveryone says that07:50
ScottKpwnguin: Well with Tracker enabled it'd take forever to take screenshots, so it's no great matter.07:50
pwnguinjldugger@jldugger-laptop:~$ dpkg -l | grep apparmor07:51
pwnguinby my estimation, that indicates something apparmor related is not installed07:53
ScottKAgreed.  Why not install it then?07:53
pwnguindoesn't interest me much07:53
ScottKAh.  Then no great loss.07:54
pwnguinim partly worried it'll be a nuisance07:54
ScottKYou can always remove it.  It's been transparent for me.07:55
pwnguinto me, the bigger news story is the semi dissapearance of the laptop team =/07:55
tonyyarussoWe lost a team?  Did we send a search party?07:55
Burgundaviain what sense?07:55
pwnguinin the sense that i havent seen any activity in my digging. granted im not qualified to call it dead07:56
* ScottK having just mailed $REPORT to $CUSTOMER is going to bed. Good night all.07:56
sladentonyyarusso: the search party is in #ubuntu-release-party though I don't think they've found anything yet07:56
FujitsuNight ScottK.07:56
tonyyarussosladen: Nor do I think they're looking.........  I've trained for searches before, and that crowd isn't anywhere near organized enough07:56
pwnguinthe only thread on laptop devel ML since June was the one i started on power consumption07:57
* Fujitsu waits for one of the RMs to head into #-release-party and ask when the release is.07:58
pwnguinand even the only message in june was someone quitting the team07:58
StevenKFujitsu: Now that would be cool.07:58
Burgundaviapwnguin: laptop-devel was an attempt to create a cross-distro place to talk about laptop issues07:59
HobbseeFujitsu: heh, why?07:59
StevenKHobbsee: I suspect because everyone is asking07:59
minghuaJust out of curiosity -- What are we waiting for now?  Building ISOs?07:59
Fujitsuminghua: Mirrors, I believe.07:59
Hobbseeminghua: website to wake up, i think07:59
Hobbseeminghua: and the pushing of the Big Red Button08:00
minghuaOh, so we pre-sync to mirrors before announcing?08:00
Artemis3as usual08:00
minghuaI was just told otherwise yesterday.08:00
Fujitsuminghua: Yeah, or everything blows up.08:00
Artemis3also, as usual (being told otherwise)08:00
tonyyarussoHobbsee: speaking of which, I had a friend ask if there was actually a Big Red Button, who would be very please if you would say someone slapped together a little GTK interface with such a thing08:00
minghuaBut I was told by a mirror admin, so I believed him, assuming he knows what he is talking about.08:01
Hobbseetonyyarusso: haha08:01
Fujitsuminghua: Hm, that is odd.08:01
Hobbseetonyyarusso: yeah, but it might be done as a command line, depending.08:01
Mithrandirtonyyarusso: then we'd of course have to have a Qt app for releasing kubuntu.08:01
tonyyarussoMithrandir: of course08:01
Hobbseeminghua: we tend to, if we can, afaik, yes08:01
pwnguinBurgundavia: so then its not a list for the ubuntu laptop team?08:02
minghuaI see, thanks everyone for explaining.08:02
FujitsuMithrandir: Haha.08:02
torkeltonyyarusso: http://www.85qm.de/up/BigRedButton.swf08:03
pwnguinBurgundavia: it may be that the kernel team has sort of absorbed the bulk of the effort08:04
cjwatsonLaserJock: FWIW I'd advise against writing "Copyright (C) Canonical Ltd." in things you write unless you have a contract with Canonical that lays out what we can do with your work08:04
cjwatsonLaserJock: I don't know the exact legal situation, but I've certainly heard others recommend against using another organisation's name in a copyright message unless you have a signed legally-approved assignment in place08:05
FujitsuOoh, somebody told Mithrandir off. Brave.08:06
HobbseeFujitsu: are they still alive?08:06
tonyyarussogutsy-changes claims a new version of opera was just uploaded08:08
Fujitsutonyyarusso: It probably was.08:08
Fujitsupartner is special.08:08
tonyyarussoFujitsu: That's allowed?08:08
ScottKAnd then there's bug #153798 too.08:08
ubotuLaunchpad bug 153798 in launchpad "canonical partner repo packages showing as "in ubuntu"" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15379808:08
* ScottK quits hawking $HISPETBUG and really goes to bed.08:09
cjwatsonshould be on soyuz08:09
* cjwatson moves it08:10
StevenKMorning cjwatson08:10
minghuaThat red button flash has a long story to tell...08:11
=== Gman is now known as GmanAFK
tonyyarussominghua: yeah...08:20
* tonyyarusso got through the whole thing08:20
AnAntHello, if I use reportbug will it report to Ubuntu or Debian ?08:21
Burgundaviait will go the ubuntu-users mailing list08:22
AnAntBurgundavia: won't reportbug send to LP too ?08:27
BurgundaviaI don't think so08:27
* Hobbsee heads out to the sydney release party. have fun everyone!08:27
* StevenK does too08:29
AnAntwhen's the release ?08:30
Burgundaviawhen the release happens08:30
AnAntthere are serious bugs in the kernel08:30
Burgundaviafile them08:31
AnAntno one even responded to a bug that makes my laptop crash, although I submitted it weeks ago08:31
AnAntI did file it08:31
Burgundaviawe get a lot of bugs08:31
ScottKAnAnt: What bug?08:31
AnAntbug #14615108:32
ubotuLaunchpad bug 146151 in linux-source-2.6.22 "Random hangup on HP Pavilion dv6391 when system beep" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/14615108:32
minghuaAnAnt: If it only affects you, then probably it's not serious (in a general sense).08:32
AnAntminghua: well, no one decided that it's a duplicate of any bug, nor did anyone say, I have the same problem too08:33
minghuaAnAnt: I am not saying there isn't a bug, I'm just saying it's not as serious as you say.08:34
AnAntminghua: ah, I see08:35
ScottKAnAnt: Does this happen when you are using noapic irqpoll noirqdebug as you mentioned in Bug #103273?08:37
ubotuLaunchpad bug 103273 in linux-source-2.6.22 "booting HP Pavilion tx1020 laptop requires noapic kernel option" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/10327308:37
AnAntScottK: I don't think so, because in that case beep doesn't even work08:37
AnAntScottK: btw, I think that 103273 was for AMD64 not i38608:38
AnAntScottK: also I can't use those options as my nvidia won't work IIRC08:38
ScottKOK.  It sounds to me like you haven't made a clear, complete discussion of what your problem is in the bug then.  In #103273 you said you needed to use noapic irqpoll noirqdebug and now you say your video doesn't work if you do that.08:40
AnAntScottK: on 103273, I was on amd64, there isn't a restricted nvidia driver there (at least restricted manager doesn't say so)08:41
ScottKOK, so it's two different laptops?08:41
AnAntScottK: on 146151, it was on using i386 ubuntu08:41
AnAntScottK: same laptop, using different ubuntu versions08:41
AnAntScottK: I gave up on amd64 version because I wasn't able to run 32-apps on it08:42
ScottKI see.  OK.08:42
AnAntScottK: :s/32-apps/32-bit apps08:42
AnAntanyone knows about console fonts ?08:44
minghuaI know a *tiny* bit.08:45
* ScottK really goes to bed. AnAnt I don't know what to tell you. I file bugs that don't get a lot of response sometimes too.08:45
AnAntScottK: ok08:46
minghuaNight ScottK.  (Though I think this is the third time you are going bed tonight :-)08:46
AnAntminghua: ok, I have a program called acon (it's on Ubuntu btw), the upstream has coded a console font in the C code08:46
ScottKThird, maybe 4th.08:47
AnAntminghua: is there a way to convert that C code font into PSF ?!08:47
minghuaAnAnt: There should be a way.  Whether it's easy or not, I don't know.08:47
minghuaAfter all, console fonts are just 1-bit bitmap fonts.08:47
cjwatsonAnAnt: there's a bdf2psf package08:48
cjwatsonoh, I misread you08:48
cjwatsongood grief, what a crazy way to do it08:49
AnAntcjwatson: well, that program was coded in 1999 or maybe even before08:49
minghuacjwatson: More crazy than embedding XPM in C code?08:49
cjwatsonyou could just load it and use consolechars' facility to save the old console font to a file :-)08:51
cjwatsonconversion via video memory ...08:51
cjwatsonthe -F option08:51
AnAntcjwatson: I tried to do that using kbd-compat, it failed, saying that it was made to convert 256 characters, while the loaded font uses 512 characters08:54
AnAntcjwatson: you think consolechars will work ?08:54
cjwatsonyou might need to use kbd rather than kbd-compat08:54
cjwatsonbut you can try consolechars08:54
cjwatsonI don't have time to follow all the codepaths through right now to check08:55
carlospitti: Before I forget, next Launchpad code update includes the patch that will allow automatic translation imports from restricted component08:56
pitticarlos: ah, so far you imported them manually?08:57
carlospitti: well, as far as I know, only restricted-hardware was there and you provide me with its updates, do you remember it?08:57
pitticarlos: right08:58
carlospitti: s/restricted-hardware/restricted-manager/08:58
pittierm, -manager08:58
sabdflHAPPY RELEASE DAY everybody :-)08:58
tonyyarussosabdfl: right back at you :)08:58
sabdfland what a glorious day it is in London, too08:58
pittisabdfl: and to you!08:58
tonyyarussoFigures, glorious in London and rainy and foggy all week in Minneapolis08:59
sladentonyyarusso: same answer we keep giving to Hobbsee... "move to Europe" and all your problems will be sorted :)09:00
tonyyarussosladen: I believe me, I'd like to.  Not London though - one of the Nordic countries.09:00
lukkettosabdfl: and to you ;)09:00
sladentonyyarusso: you're in luck, I can report that Helsinki is beautiful and sunny today aswell09:01
Burgundaviawell, I need to sleep09:02
tonyyarussosladen: can you get me immigration papers?09:02
Burgundaviahave fun with the release all09:02
=== ogra__ is now known as ogra
pwnguinwhat replaced pmount?09:04
cjwatsonand the hal stack09:04
sladenpwnguin: hal + gnome-mount09:04
pwnguinsome time ago i gather09:04
=== carlos_ is now known as carlos
pittipwnguin: in feisty09:05
pwnguini just noticed it on the list to be removed list09:05
pwnguinas unsupported by canonical09:05
* pitti does a quiet sob09:05
liwpoor pitti09:06
pwnguinit was good stuff09:06
pwnguinbut such is the mark of progress  -- creative destruction09:06
liwI liked pmount when I first saw it, and I still prefer it's command line interface over that of gnome-mount09:06
pittipwnguin: I found someone in Debian who continues to maintain it09:06
pwnguinwell, as long as theres a replacement, i dont mind09:07
pwnguinmy usage has basically been plugging in usb thumb drives09:07
pwnguinthe end09:07
pwnguinmaybe cds09:07
Mithrandirgnome-mount doesn't have a command line mode, does it?09:08
pittiMithrandir: it does09:08
pittiMithrandir: e. g. gnome-mount -d /dev/sda109:08
pwnguinMithrandir: maybe if you use the right dbus command ;)09:08
Mithrandiroh, nice.09:08
pittior gnome-{eject,umount}09:08
pittiMithrandir: useful for debugging, too, if you invoke it as gnome-mount -vbd /dev/sda109:08
liwwhen pmount went away, I had to learn about gnome-mount's cli, so as to fix my script to ssh-add a key from a usb stick09:09
* Mithrandir hugs his gpg card with ssh keys on it.09:10
davmor2Mithrandir: :P09:10
Mithrandirit's quite useful09:11
sladendavmor2: ssssh.  "bzr" around here   *nods*09:11
davmor2sladen: why? Sssssssshhhhh09:12
liwI don't have smart card reader, the usb stick is good enough for me09:13
davmor2liw: I just used lvm encrypted about a 100 time yesterday :)09:14
* pwnguin just wishes his SD reader on his laptop worked. it worked for like one release09:15
* davmor2 lends pwnguin my sledgehammer give it a tap it'll work :)09:17
pittiScottK: all done; I also cleaned all the NEW stuff in backports while I was at it09:17
LaserJockcjwatson: ok, thanks for the advice. I was uncertain about it but was "going with the flow"09:21
cjwatsonthe flow of stuff done by Canonical employees, I'm guessing :)09:23
LaserJockwhen I started working in Main09:23
=== zul_ is now known as zul
=== thekorn_ is now known as thekorn
Riddellquiet here this morning :)10:14
ograyeah :)10:14
LaserJockRiddell: #ubuntu-release-party has got a lot more action if you're bored :-)10:16
tonyyarussoRiddell: It helps balance out urp10:16
davmor2Riddell: I can kick your shins again if you want :)10:17
* tonyyarusso wonders why they don't turn off indexing in apache for release times - it would save us a lot of headaches on IRC10:17
davmor2Riddell: if you really want to see fun release and watch the frenzy :D10:20
davmor2Riddell: By the way thanks for the mention :)10:22
Riddelldavmor2: there really is fame and glory for our developers!10:24
tonyyarussocjwatson: Is there a particular reason apache indexing is allowed to create all this confusion right now?  Does rsync require it?10:34
cjwatsontonyyarusso: I doubt it would make any difference; the HTML headers have to go out too10:35
cjwatsonand they link to all the files10:35
cjwatsonthe confusion is really just entertaining noise, I don't view it as significant in the grand scheme of things10:35
tonyyarussocjwatson: Really?  Well, if you don't mind I guess I can't complain as much, but personally it would be nice if they just got 403 errors instead of a list of disk images :)10:36
cjwatsontonyyarusso: we'd then have to do *another* mirror sync pass to turn indexing back on10:37
cjwatsonwhich we'd have to wait for10:37
tonyyarussocjwatson: Ah, bummer.  nvm then10:37
* tonyyarusso doesn't really understand the infrastructure stuff10:37
cjwatsonit's just one of those things with a mirrored distribution network, you get a period when it's "leaked" in some sense10:38
LaserJockcjwatson: how long does it take to get an .iso out to all the mirrors, roughly?10:38
cjwatsonLaserJock: the actual ISOs went out overnight10:38
cjwatsonLaserJock: but, well, "it depends" - there are a lot of mirrors on wildly varying links. We pre-publish well in advance to allow many hours for it10:39
cjwatsonthe way that the pre-publication process works, we can still make small changes to the ISOs and subsequent "re-pre-publication" will be quicker by the magic of rsync10:40
LaserJockah, right10:40
LaserJockso then what determines when the "official" release happens? website stuff or Mark giving a "green light"10:41
LaserJockor waking up to find that everything's ready?10:41
pwnguinits not an official release until the first upload to fix whatever is horribly broken10:43
minghuaLaserJock: I suppose it's safe to say it's released when a mail is sent to -announce.10:44
LaserJockbut I'm wondering how it's determined that it's time to send the email10:45
davmor2pwnguin: that'll be the xorg-intel driver then :)10:45
LaserJockor maybe what's the biggest bottleneck10:45
pwnguinthe slowest official mirror, id wager10:46
cjwatsonLaserJock: ReleaseProcess10:52
Kanohi, is today the release of gutsy or will it be delayed?10:52
LaserJockcjwatson: oh, how handy ;-)10:53
dholbachKano: ubuntu.com does not look like that10:53
tonyyarussoKano: Announcement the moment of will take place in #ubuntu-release-party.  At this time all systems look to be go for soon today.10:54
Kanowell basically i only want to know if the kernel will change before release or not10:54
dholbachKano: no very likely not, maybe through -updates though10:55
cjwatsonKano: the kernel will not change10:55
Kanook, then i will use current u kernel as base10:56
Kanoi dont like to use it and next day there is another one online..10:56
pwnguinbase for what?10:59
Kanokanotix kernel, i need just a different config10:59
amitkKano: do you follow the kernel git tree or the source package?11:01
Kanoas all patches which i reported are in it - expect one special one for lum11:01
Kanofor releases i usually prefer to use source packages11:02
Kanoin case of problems i test git11:02
Huffwill the derivatives be released simultaneously with Ubuntu gutsy?11:03
cjwatsonHuff: yes11:03
Kanohmm final release seems to be online. ok then i can use the kernel ;)11:03
Huffsorry wrong channel don't mean to bother11:03
Kanoab it sad that the ati xserver is broken for my x700se11:04
Kanobut i use that card basically for fglrx testing anyway11:05
tormodkano, you can use the 6.6 driver linked in the release notes.11:05
tormodthe -ati driver 6.6.something11:06
ubotuLaunchpad bug 151974 in xserver-xorg-video-ati "[RV410] X700SE [1002:5e4f] - DRI images corrupted" [Undecided,Confirmed]11:06
Kanothats what i mean11:07
tormodKano: I know11:07
Kanoi think ati cards dont like intel chipsets11:08
Kanothats the 2nd card that does not init after ati driver was used with fglrx11:08
Kanomainly i test fglrx...11:08
Kanocurrently fglrx is so borken that restarting the xserver stops the system11:09
Kanoreally fun to write fglrx install scripts11:09
Kanowith my older nforce3 system that did not happen, just with that pci-e one...11:11
tormodKano: "ati driver was used with fglrx" ?11:11
Kanotormod: well when you install fglrx without reboot11:11
Kanowhen the card was first used by ati11:11
Kanousually you unload radeon + drm module and all is fine11:12
tormodKano: I see. Like when testing with a live CD.11:12
Kanoi did not install ubuntu11:12
Kanoi only use parts of it11:12
Kanomaybe i do and compile some things i need11:13
Kanoi compiled full kde 3.5.8 lately for etch, that was real fun ;)11:13
Kanoat least i can stip this step for gutsy11:15
Kanofor your next system i would highly advice to update ffmpeg11:16
Kanothats the biggest drawback compared to other systems11:16
Kanofor h264 you need latest code11:16
sladenKano: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ffmpeg/+filebug  and justify what updates are required, and why, if they are needed11:24
=== Fujitsu is now known as Fujitsu_
minghuaI doubt filing bugs against ffmpeg and ask for update really helps...11:26
RAOFPity they don't have a bugtracker - then you could file a bug upstream asking for some kind of release this decade :).11:27
Kanosince one week PAFF decoding should work, that was missing for ages...11:28
sladenminghua: it's hopefully slightly more effective than letting the request scroll off the top of the screen on IRC11:29
Kanoalso h264 should now work multithreaded, for hd res thats a requirement11:29
minghuasladen: True.  But I doubt the difference matter.  My feeling is just nobody dare to touch ffmpeg.11:30
Kanoi dislike using coreavc for that...11:31
Kanoeven if there are patches to use it11:31
=== Seveaz is now known as Seveas
ubotuLaunchpad bug 153858 in ffmpeg "update to current svn for better h264 support" [Undecided,New]11:38
ln-does anyone read and/or care about kernel-related bug reports?11:42
ln-this one, in particular: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.15/+bug/6563111:42
ubotuLaunchpad bug 65631 in linux-source-2.6.15 "skge driver broken: invalid call to spin_unlock causes system crash" [Undecided,Confirmed]11:42
Kanodo you really still use 2.6.15?11:48
Kanowith that i would just blacklist skge and compile new sk98lin11:48
ln-that's the one that comes from apt for Dapper.11:48
minghualn-: Have you tried a later version?11:49
minghualike, feisty or gutsy?11:49
Kanoi am using skge all the time with newer kernels...11:50
ln-minghua: no, but i have tried the patch attached to that bug report, and it does fix the problem.11:50
ln-but the thing is, we've got four or five similar computer here at the office, and after each kernel update from apt I have to replace the skge driver on all of them again.11:51
Kanowell when you have got lts you maybe better fix it ;)11:51
minghualn-: I suggest you ask in #ubuntu-kernel and see if it's possible to have an update for dapper.11:52
Keybukthe glibc "double free detected" panic has to be the most useless thing in existance11:53
Keybukwhy can't it just abort() so I can catch it in gdb and see *what* I'm double-freeing11:53
ln-the silly thing is, there have been about four updates to dapper kernel after that bug was reported, so there would have been chances to fix it in one of them... but ok, i'll try #ubuntu-kernel.11:53
cjwatsonKeybuk: MALLOC_CHECK_=211:59
Keybukcjwatson: that does the abort() somewhere inside libc with no useful stack trace12:00
Keybukie. you can't see which free() it was12:00
sladenif you do MALLOC_CHECK_=3, does it warn you about triple-free()s  ;-)12:01
minghuasladen: I'm actually more interested in what MALLOC_CHECK=1 do...12:02
minghuacjwatson: Thanks.12:03
FujitsuOh dear, who stuffed the website?12:05
FujitsuIt's coming soon *and* released on the same page.12:06
minghuaI don't see anything mentioning released.12:07
FujitsuAh, reverted.12:07
FujitsuLike last time, IIRC.12:07
=== tonyy is now known as tonyyarusso
=== norsetto is now known as norsetto_limbo
=== billybongo is now known as billybongo-food
ScottKpitti: Thanks for taking care of the backports.12:32
pittiScottK: yw12:32
=== slangasek changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with gutsy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty, #ubuntu+1 for gutsy support | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Ubuntu 7.10 released!
=== asac_ is now known as asac
persiaShouldn't that be "...even with Hoary...", or does that wait for archive open?12:36
Fujitsupersia: Hardy, you mean?12:36
persiaUmm.  Yes.  The other H* release12:37
cjwatsonpersia: doesn't make much difference until the archive opens :)12:38
persiacjwatson: Right.  Makes sense.  Thanks.12:38
cjwatson(which will be a little while)12:38
akrillcuriosity: when is the vote on 8.10's name? ;-)12:47
cjwatsonit's not a vote12:47
cjwatsonMark picks it12:48
akrillah, i see12:49
stdinyou mean Hardy ?12:49
akrillno, Hardy = 8.04.12:49
akrilli'm talking the one after than, 8.10 ;-)12:49
stdinoh yeah, my mind is like jelly at the moment :p12:49
akrilli'm thinking Itchy Iguana. :-p12:50
akrillanyway. im off to bed. night all12:50
=== billybongo-food is now known as billybongo
pochucongrats for this great release! you guys ROCK!13:01
tonyyarussoI'm going for Intrepid Impala myself.  /me hopes the powers that be are listening ;)13:07
pittimvo: do you have a feisty at hand? does update-manager find the release notes? there are some complaints in #urp13:11
mvopitti: I checked it and it worked after I flipped the swtich, I can retry, sec13:12
pittimvo: ok, thanks; let's blame the server banging then, if it generally works13:12
tormodthe formatting of commands got lost in http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/71013:12
mvopitti: works for me, I tried with and without local proxy13:13
mvopitti: downloading the upgrader is a bit on the slow side :)13:13
mvopitti: but it finished successfully13:13
stgraberuploading at 60MB/s on bittorrent :)13:14
* pitti hugs mvo, thanks13:14
mvostgraber: impressive :)13:15
stgraber6x100Mb/s :)13:15
stgraberI'll just have to look a bit at our quotas (7TB/month)13:15
stgraberat this speed the quota will be used in less than a day13:15
cjwatsontormod: reported, thanks13:16
* persia requests a mention of 7.10 at the bottom of http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/downloadmirrors13:16
cjwatsonpersia: reported, thanks13:17
persiacjwatson: Thanks.13:17
=== norsetto_limbo is now known as norsetto
cjwatsonpersia: 13:21 <@newz2000> its updated, give it a few min to clear the cache13:22
* persia celebrates13:22
PiciCongrats everyone :)13:25
=== agoliveira is now known as agoliveira_brb
=== agoliveira_brb is now known as agoliveira
WhoopieTo all of you: WELL DONE!13:40
Mithrandirdoko: do I need to do anything more than install icedtea-plugin to get java plugin on amd64?13:58
dokoMithrandir: you need to rebuild it yourself, or install it from ...13:59
doko#deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/ubuntu gutsy/14:00
doko#deb-src http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/ubuntu gutsy/14:00
Mithrandirdoko: why's that?14:00
ubotuLaunchpad bug 152362 in icedtea-java7 "icedtea-java7-plugin always crashes firefox" [High,Confirmed]14:00
dokohelp appreciated ...14:00
Mithrandirit doesn't crash for me, it just fails to start14:01
dokostart firefox from a console, and you'll see that it crashes14:01
dokofirefox itself doesn't crash14:01
Mithrandirthat page seems to have older .debs than what's in gutsy?14:02
kagouCongratulations ! Bravo !14:02
dokoMithrandir: ahh, yes, but they work =) I'll update to b22 soonish, but that doesn't fix things yet14:03
Mithrandirdoko: heh, ok. :-)14:04
=== TomaszD_ is now known as TomaszD
warsockethi ppl i have short a question about launchpad and registerig a blueprint, is the the right channel fo this (have a blueprint for installation of 3rd party non repo apps)14:12
sorenwarsocket: Depends... If it's about using launchpad correctly, #launchpad might be more suitable. If it's about the details of the contents of your ubuntu blueprint, this might be the right channel.14:13
warsocketk I have an idea oh how to install appliocations wich are not in the ubunu repo14:14
warsocketand i could work on nummerous of those apps wich ahvent even heared of my project14:15
warsocketif i register my blueprint fo the whole idea at launchpad14:15
warsocketAm I then obligated to program the whiole project myself14:15
warsocketor is it possible that someone else programs my blueprint14:16
warsocketand if I acan program a part of it, will I get help or should i finf my own team?14:16
BenCpitti: linux-source-2.6.15 29.61 uploaded to dapper-proposed14:17
BenCpitti: that's everything from my end14:17
pittiBenC: how, -proposed? I thought -updates due to the ABI skew?14:18
BenCpitti: doh14:18
pittiBenC: there weren't any fixes in initramfs after all?14:18
BenCcan I upload directly to -updates?14:18
pittiBenC: yes, you can; we just don't do it normally14:19
BenCpitti: I uploaded initramfs-tools, udev and linux-meta last night14:19
pittiah, I see14:19
pittiBenC: -meta?14:19
BenCpitti: needed linux-backports-modules-* meta packages14:19
pittiah, of course14:19
cjwatsonwarsocket: if you aren't likely to contribute a good chunk of it yourself, it would be better to look around for existing projects first and try to join up with one of them rather than starting your own effort14:23
cjwatsonwarsocket: it's relatively rare for people to pick up other people's blueprints, because the people likely to develop large chunks of them already have lots on their own lists :-)14:24
BenCpitti: re-uploaded to -proposed14:24
pittiBenC: -updates, I assume :)14:24
BenCshit, yeah, -updates :)14:24
pittiBenC: thanks a lot14:24
Mithrandirdoko: at least 7~b21-1.4+20071007-0ubuntu1 is still broken.  Do you remember which one works?14:26
sladenwarsocket: the secret is to document your idea, and then pursuade other people that it's such a good idea that they will help you  (but probably not by spamming people with alot on their plates already14:27
mhbpitti: by the way, not sure if you've heard, but I won't be at the uds, usa denied me a visa.14:27
pittimhb: hi; yes, I heard about it yesterday; how unfortunate :(14:28
pittimhb: I had looked forward to meeting you14:28
mhbpitti: yes, well... you can imagine I did, too.14:28
pittimhb: weird that you even need one, as an EU citizen14:28
mhbpitti: yes, they treat Czech Republic inequally.14:29
mhbpitti: also, they kind of ignored that I have an invitation letter.14:30
mathiazpitti: well - it doesn't really matter that you're a EU citizen when you deal with the US.14:30
mathiazpitti: you actually don't have a EU passport (but a german, french, etc...)14:31
mhbpitti: I'll help you with restricted-manager rewrite regardless.14:31
pittimathiaz: right; I just had assumed that the visa waiver program applied to all EU14:31
=== xhaker_ is now known as xhaker
pittimhb: that would be great; I still sub'ed you to the spec, I hope we can discuss it over phone or IRC14:31
mathiazpitti: nope - it's on a per country basis.14:31
dokoMithrandir: did you install -jre, -bin, and -plugin?14:34
Mithrandirdoko: yes.14:35
mhbpitti: I saw that, thanks. I'll go read it.14:35
pittimhb: there's nothing on the wiki page yet14:36
pittijust the skeleton14:36
Mithrandirdoko: it seems like it never starts anything, it shows the "click here to download plugin" replacement element14:38
dokoMithrandir: are alternatives set correctly? see about:plugins ?14:39
sorenwarsocket: You don't have to do all of it yourself, but the more you can do, the more likely it is to get done.14:40
sorenwarsocket: You can start out be writing the specification in as much detail as you can to make it as easy as possible for other people to understand your idea and possibly help.14:41
Mithrandirdoko: ah, the alternatives were set wrongly.  Now I get a grey, dead bokx14:41
dokoMithrandir: no output in the terminal, if you start firefox from there?14:42
Mithrandirload: class no.sb1.detectorapplet.Detector not found.14:44
MithrandirCaused by: java.security.NoSuchAlgorithmException: CertBundle KeyStore not available14:44
dokoMithrandir: can you open classpath.org and see the stomping fork in the upper left corner?14:49
Mithrandirdoko: yes, that works.14:51
Mithrandirdoko: I would guess it's that it's trying to load a class over HTTPS and failing to find the CA certificate store14:51
dokoMithrandir: yes, maybe some properties need to be adjusted, patches welcome =)14:52
pittiBenC: tons of changes in tg3; has this new driver been tested on a production dapper already? if not, maybe we should test it in a PPA first?14:53
BenCpitti: it's been tested from -proposed for quite some time14:56
pittiBenC: ah, you took it from there? alright, that's pretty much what we wanted I guess :)14:57
sorenGah, I'm tired of gutsy. When does hardy open?14:58
pittisoren: using a stable release is sooo boring14:58
dokoeven hardy is stable now =)14:59
zulgutsy is so passe15:00
cjwatsonsoren: NewReleaseCycleProcess says release+1day15:00
sorenpitti: Yeah, I can smell it rotting already. Let's get a move on, people.15:00
cjwatsonalthough, for the eagle-eyed, hardy seeds already exist ;-)15:00
sorencjwatson: Uh, shiny!15:01
sorenEr, I mean: Uh, hardy!15:01
cjwatson(it was something I could trivially do without disturbing anything else)15:01
pittiand now for something entirely different: dapper.2!15:02
* soren hides again15:02
BenCdapper.2 is for the truely hard core15:02
lamont"s" so needs to be "shiny spaceship"15:02
lamont"shiny serenity" fits even better.15:03
Treenakslamont: and after 'z', rollover to 'angsty astronaut'15:03
sorenSpaceships are good. We need it right after the ravenous rapor release.15:03
sorenraptor, of course.15:03
* lamont is saddened by the dearth of Firefly fans15:04
lamontcjwatson: my mirror sync script is running too fast.  lets fix that. kthxbye.15:04
* lamont waits for trouncing15:05
=== tkamppeter__ is now known as tkamppeter
pittiBenC: the other patches look fairly straightforward to me15:08
pittiBenC: the struct change in serial/usb-serial.h doesn't break ABI?15:08
dokoMithrandir: b22 in my repo15:10
BenCpitti: I would have thought so, interesting that it didn't15:10
pittiBenC: in the sense of "abi checker should have caught that", or "it's not used anywhere else and this is alright"?15:11
BenCpitti: in the sense that if the checker didn't catch it, it should be ok15:12
Mithrandirdoko: cheers, I'll poke it15:12
pittiBenC: so, if you have a third-party module which passes structs of that type, won't that break?15:12
BenCpitti: I can do a build again to make sure15:12
pittiBenC: (sorry, I'm just horribly nervous to not screw this up)15:12
pittiBenC: so in general the abi checker does check for changed structs?15:13
BenCpitti: if it passes abi-checker, it's no problem15:13
pittiah, cool15:13
pittiBenC: good, I'll walk through the -proposed packages for now and let linux sit there until your build15:14
zulBenC: what about 65631 for dapper -proposed (i know its late, see -kernel earlier)15:17
=== Fujitsu_ is now known as Fujitsu
pittiBenC: call me blind, but I don't see any lbm in dapper-proposed, neither unapproved nor NEW?15:25
BenCpitti: ooh, I forgot to upload that15:26
BenCpitti: FYI, I should point out that the idea behind lbm is that it is installed by default in dapper.215:27
pittiBenC: by virtue of adding them to the seeds, I assume? (not by adding a dependency to linux-image?)15:27
cjwatsonwe may need to tweak base-installer15:27
pittioh, for people who just install CLI, you mean?15:29
pittiah, ignore me; it's quite obvious15:29
cjwatson(to clarify: base-installer installs the kernel and so will need to be taught to install l-b-m too. yes, they'll need to be seeded too so that they're actually on the CDs)15:31
pitticjwatson: do you think you can do this tomorrow, when the linux-meta lbm packages are in dapper-proposed?15:32
cjwatsonpitti: remind me tomorrow please, but yes, I can give it a go15:32
pittiI will, thanks15:33
BenCpitti: lbm-dapper uploaded15:36
pittiBenC: accepted, thanks15:38
sorenWho has power to approve/decline nominations in Launchpad?15:38
ScottKsoren: Any ubuntu-dev.15:39
pittisoren: for bugs? specs?15:39
pittifor dapper at least, only ubuntu-drivers, but I'm able to nominate for edgy/feisty/gutsy myself15:39
sorenI'm just almost sure it's the first time I've seen the approve/decline link and I was curious..15:39
sorenScottK: Oh, really? Hm.15:40
sorenpitti: Oh, we can't even *nominate* for dapper?15:40
pittisoren: I meant s/nominate/actually add the task/15:40
sorenpitti: Oh, ok.15:40
pittisoren: nomination is pretty unrestricted (no idea whether it's ubuntu-dev only)15:41
sorenpitti: Right, I would have expected it to be.15:41
=== agoliveira is now known as agoliveira_lunch
=== cprov is now known as cprov-lunch
=== pedro is now known as pedro_
sabdflpolls open in 8 hours for new MOTU council candidates16:19
sabdflplease vote, everyone!16:19
mjg59sabdfl: Wow, the UI for that is no longer eye-bleedingly painful!16:20
ProN00bhey, i have an suggestion for the next release, why not make the stuff avaiable as a preload 1-3 weeks before the actual release so people can start loading the not yet but almost final packages so they only have to download the last minute changes when they download and install the release version16:35
coNP[uni]ProN00b: I guess it is.16:35
jdongProN00b: that's a release candidate....16:35
ProN00bsteam (content delivery platform) does that for example; also i think the game world of warcraft employs a similar method16:35
ProN00bjdong, well, a release candidate is installed and not just downloaded, i am talking of just downloading so you have it on the actual release16:36
jdongProN00b: you can download the release candidate and rsync it up to final16:36
jdongor even torrent it up to final16:36
jdongit's still less than 25% of the chunks that fail hash16:37
jdongI don't know what else we can do...16:37
jdongoh you mean for the upgrade procedure itself?16:37
jdongi.e. apt prefetch distribution upgrades?16:37
mjg59Because what would be the point?16:38
kdean06Congrats on another release guys. :)16:38
ProN00bputting it into the "Update Manager"16:38
mjg59People would just install them anyway16:38
ProN00bmjg59, the point would be users having their release faster and servers not crawling under huge load16:38
mjg59ProN00b: But it wouldn't happen. Once the files were on the servers, people would upgrade to them.16:38
=== agoliveira_lunch is now known as agoliveira
ProN00bmjg59, huh ?16:39
mjg59How would you prevent people from installing the precached packages?16:39
cjwatsonProN00b: we don't have it ready 1-3 weeks before the actual release. The thing that we *do* have ready we *already* put out as a release candidate.16:39
cjwatsonProN00b: there are already ways to do everything you suggest16:40
ProN00bcjwatson, so how do i preload the release candidate without installing it and use it in the later install ?16:40
mjg59ProN00b: I'm getting over 100K/sec from archive.ubuntu.com. It's hardly crawling.16:40
ScottKProN00b: Download the RC CD.  Install that, then update16:40
cjwatsonProN00b: apt-get --download-only dist-upgrade16:40
ProN00bmjg59, well, my mirror and other peoples mirrors do16:41
mjg59Using another mirror is always an option16:41
ProN00bmjg59, yeah, but that would interrupt and break the update16:41
mjg59No it wouldn't16:41
ProN00bwell, i am doing it with update manager16:42
ProN00bit told me i can't interrupt16:42
sabdflmjg59: well, i have bandages over one eye from having to *create* it :-)16:42
cjwatsonAFAICT update-manager shouldn't tell you that you can't interrupt the fetch16:42
cjwatsonsince, hey, it provides a button to cancel the fetch16:42
cjwatsonmvo: is there a bug about that already?16:42
mjg59ProN00b: Delaying the release by 2 weeks would be pretty equivalent to just asking people to wait two weeks after the release before trying to update. In all probability, the worst of the mirror traffic will be over tomorrow. You could just wait until then.16:43
ProN00bmjg59, well, they would get it two weeks later instead of getting it exactly on the release date16:43
ProN00bcjwatson, does dist-upgrade give me the release candidate ?16:44
cjwatsonProN00b: it gives you whatever is current in the archive16:44
cjwatsonProN00b: "release candidate" is only a meaningful concept for CD images16:44
mjg59ProN00b: Yes. Which would be equivalent to putting the release back two weeks.16:45
ProN00bmjg59, delaying makes no sense16:45
mjg59ProN00b: It would be the same thing. If we were going to provide a meaningfully stable archive that could be precached for a 2-week period, it would require delaying the release.16:46
ProN00bcjwatson, well, wouldn't i have to change my sources.list to the new release first then ?16:46
cjwatsonProN00b: yes16:46
cjwatsonyou could change it back afterwards if you liked16:46
cjwatsonthere's no way we can have a stable archive for two weeks without releasing it16:46
ProN00bso i do change - download only dist upgrade - change back16:46
cjwatson(a) everyone would go berserk (b) developers would always want to upload just one more critical fix (with some considerable justification)16:47
ProN00bcjwatson, it doesn't have to be stable, but as jdong said, it would contain 75% of the release already16:47
cjwatsonthe freezes we already do are quite enough16:47
cjwatsonProN00b: ok, just do what I suggest above then16:47
cjwatsonwe were frozen for two full weeks before release, accepting only high-priority fixes16:48
cjwatsonyou could have downloaded most of the updates in that time16:48
ProN00byeah, thats what my suggestion is, add that to the update manager16:48
cjwatsonI think that is unwise; as mjg59 says people will want to install it, and we don't want to promote that to all users before we've declared it stable16:50
cjwatsonit is better to put up with a little congestion around release time than to break people's systems16:50
ProN00bwell, it won't make installing any easyer16:50
cjwatsonand honestly, we need the bandwidth to be available before release time so that we can prepare the release16:50
cjwatsonit is preferable for us to have the congestion after release, when it doesn't impede development, than before release16:51
davmor2Congrats Guys and Gals you've done a smashing job :)16:51
sladenProN00b: the update-manager will spread the offers to upgrade out over a 24-48 window anyway depending on when people are connected and when it tries to fetch16:52
ProN00bi see16:53
ogradavmor2, wouldnt have happened without cool testers like you ;)16:54
ogradavmor2, thanks for the edubuntu tests :)16:54
davmor2np bring on the next baych :)16:54
ProN00bhow much downtime will i have when i always update to the current stuff ?16:54
zul /win 1116:55
ograwell, lets see if we get one, edubuntu might change its face in hardy ....16:55
mvocjwatson: about the "can't interrupt fetch"> there is no bug yet, I add one and tag it "later" because the text is no longer true17:18
=== norsetto_ is now known as norsetto
=== Traxer is now known as Traxer|on
=== Traxer|on is now known as Traxer
lamontmvo: is there a way to tell update-manager about a local mirror17:35
mvolamont: if you sources.list consists of local-mirror urls it should do the right thing. if you have a mixed local-mirror and archive.ubuntu.com it will comment-out your local mirror17:36
* lamont removes archive.u.c17:36
mvolamont: so ensure that you only have local-mirorr deb lines :) and it should ask you "geeh, I don't know those urls, but if you know what you are doing, click "yes"17:36
lamontat home it's even easier, since dnat shoves archive.u.c to the local mirror.17:37
lamonti win.17:37
mvolamont: did you get the dialog?17:38
lamontit's getting there17:39
lamont"preparing the upgrade" fetching file 1 of 2 at 28.7kb/s17:39
lamontare those bytes or bits?17:39
lamontdoes update-manager spew a log anywhere?17:41
jdonglamont: /var/log/dist-something?17:42
jdong/var/log/dist-upgrade*.log to be more exact17:43
lamontmvo: no valid mirror found...17:44
lamontfor the win.17:44
ScottKmjg59: I'd like to discuss your marking Bug #127773 invalid against ACPI.  Booting with acpi=off gets at least the presence of a battery recognized.  That would indicate to me that acpi is in some way involved here.17:48
ubotuLaunchpad bug 127773 in hal "A/C Status, CPU Temp, and Battery no longer recognized as present after upgrade to Gutsy in Dell Latitude L400" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/12777317:48
lamontmvo: <brett> FWIW, my "installing the upgrades" has taken about 20min to go from "18min remaining" to "16min remaining".17:49
lamont<brett> oh, and it took about 3sec to go from "16min remaining" to "Cleaning up".17:49
lamontinstalling the upgrades: about 1 hours 53 minutes remaining.17:50
lamontmvo: what is "modifying the software channels"?  is that just updating sources.list?17:54
cjwatsonScottK: the package 'acpi' is not what you think17:57
cjwatsonScottK: bugs are almost never valid on the acpi package17:57
ScottKcjwatson: OK.  What package is that then?17:57
cjwatsonScottK: acpi=off is implemented by the kernel17:57
ScottKAh.  OK.17:57
ScottKThanks for that.17:57
cjwatson'apt-cache show acpi' - it's just a tool that displays some status information17:58
* ScottK learns new stuff every day here.17:58
ScottKmjg59: Nevermind.17:58
lamontsigh.  installing 1400 packages takes a while18:01
=== bluekuja_ is now known as bluekuja
evandmdz mjg59 sabdfl : Can one of you give the thumbs up to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/gobuntu-hardy for uds-boston-2007?18:44
cjwatson(approved by me but I'm not in the TB)18:45
Psi-JackHmm, was there ever a "create_user" command prior to 7.10?18:47
DShepherdtopic needs fixing18:48
sabdflevand: done18:48
evandthanks sabdfl18:49
cjwatsonPsi-Jack: not in 7.10 either; it's called 'adduser'18:50
cjwatsonassuming you're talking about the standard system and not some database or something18:50
Psi-Jackcjwatson: Ahh, okay. I JUST found out what I was looking for. Found a bug in dbmail's postinst. ;)18:50
=== cjwatson changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Development of Ubuntu (not support, even with gutsy; not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs | Ubuntu 7.10 released!
cjwatsonDShepherd: that better? hardy isn't open yet so I haven't made the other edits you may be thinking of18:51
Psi-JackSeems to be in the script itself within the package diff.18:51
DShepherdcjwatson, much18:51
Psi-JackWow. I see why. The entire create_user() function from it is being removed, in this postinst script.18:53
=== norsetto is now known as norsetto_limbo
mvolamont: yeah, just modfiying sources.list. the time calculation is pretty rough18:57
lucasare there known problems with installing ubuntu inside qemu ? I can boot the dapper CD fine, but not the feisty or gutsy ISOs18:57
CarlFKlucas: ask again in #ubuntu - i do it18:58
OpenSorceokay folks.....this isn't flamebait just a heads up: I'm starting my review of 7.10's fitness for brand new users entitled "Kufailure: a review of Kubuntu 7.10" I'm sorry it worked out like this :-(19:24
LaserJockOpenSorce: announcing it ahead of time doesn't relieve you from being flamebait ;-)19:26
LaserJockOpenSorce: and I'm glad to see you managed to download the .iso :-)19:26
* ScottK looks around to see how many bugs OpenSorce fixed?19:26
OpenSorceScottK, I'm a journalist....not a devel.....I'm just paying you guys the courtesy of a heads-up19:27
OpenSorceI really had high hopes for Kubuntu 7.10.....maybe the next release will do better19:28
LaserJockOpenSorce: would you permit the courtesy of a rubutal? :-)19:28
LaserJockOpenSorce: and frankly, a "heads up" that you're going to do a negative reviw is not really very exciting19:28
OpenSorceLaserJock, if it gets printed on-line yes there's a comments function19:28
OpenSorceLaserJock, didn't want to blindside you guys.....okay I got work to do....good luck with the next release19:29
LaserJockOpenSorce: well, you can't blindside us when we don't know you exist, sorry19:29
LaserJockI'm sorry you had a negative experience, truly19:30
LaserJockbut I'm not sure how you expect us to respond to this "heads up" when there is no context19:30
OpenSorceLaserJock, actually if this is helpful let me say that the reason it failed our tests is it couldn't pass the "basics" on install19:31
OpenSorceBasics: Keyboard, Mouse, Sound, Video (proprietary drivers incl.), Networking (WiFi incl.)19:31
OpenSorceit failed in video and wifi19:31
pochuReport bugs?19:31
calcOpenSorce: which particular video and wifi?19:31
* ompaul is now very curious as to what kind of hardware was it run on 19:32
OpenSorcecalc, older Nvidia card and an older usb wifi adapter19:32
LaserJockOpenSorce: ok, well that's a good start :-)19:32
LaserJockOpenSorce: did you only try it on one machine?19:32
calcOpenSorce: which particular usb chipset? broadcom?19:32
OpenSorceLaserJock, yes same machine we test all new distros on19:32
OpenSorcecalc, acx19:33
OpenSorcecalc, Mandriva 2008.0 set it all up perfect right out of the box.....you guys may want to have a look at what they are doing19:33
calcOpenSorce: interesting, i don't know anything about acx wireless but there is a driver for it in Ubuntu19:34
OpenSorceand ndiswrapper not even included in the basic install?19:34
calcOpenSorce: under /lib/modules/2.6.22-14-generic/ubuntu/wireless/acx  maybe it wasn't detected?19:34
OpenSorcecalc, yes the driver thinks my adapter is a wired device19:35
OpenSorcecalc, it doesn't matter....it has to work out of the box....a new user wouldn't look there or be able to get here for help....he wouldn't have internet to do it.....networking failure is a deal breaker, y'know?19:36
=== rulus_ is now known as rulus
calcjust as an aside it appears the acx line of wifi chips from TI is some of the worst supported under linux19:36
calcOpenSorce: a new user would likely have a centrino system though as well... which is well supported, ymmv19:36
calci didn't know TI still even made wifi chips since intel owns that market now19:37
calcbut yes filing a bug report about the fact that the acx driver is confused and think it is hard wired would be very useful for people with that hardware19:38
calci'm not certain about the nvidia issue, whether ubuntu installs the proprietary driver by default or not19:38
OpenSorcecalc, well it's something we do out of fairness....we did polls on the hardware of most new Linux users and found them to have "middle-of-road" systems by and large....so we use a "middle-of-the-road" system for testing19:38
LaserJockOpenSorce: you should really use more than one system though19:39
OpenSorcecalc, well the video issue is NOT a deal breaker provided the user can easily fetch the right driver19:39
calcOpenSorce: which middle of the road intel systems use non-intel chipset for wifi? or do you mean middle of the road as in 3-4 year old hardware?19:39
calcoh doh i am confusing myself19:39
LaserJockI become a bit skeptical of reviews of any OS don't on only one hardware set19:39
calcthis was usb so was wifi in a desktop?19:39
* calc needs to learn reading comprehension again19:40
OpenSorcecalc, hehe....middle of the road as far as age of  hardware as well19:40
* calc notes his definition of middle of the road age-wise would be ~ 1.5yr old, 3+ is obsolete ;)19:41
* LaserJock is obsolete19:41
ograno, 3+ is ready for thin client :)19:41
pitticalc: in fact I only have three-year old HW (and older), and it's working very well19:41
OpenSorcecalc, yes it's a desktop system....we use wifi in testing because statistics show that over 55% of computer users today rely on wifi...and pretty much every distro can handle most network cards fine19:41
calcof course i went from building kde to building ooo so i need faster hardware than average19:41
pittithe good thing of the past years is that the GHz/MB-Mania has settled down a bit19:41
pittiapparently computers are finally fast enough for people not to care about more power so much any more19:42
pitticalc: you are special :)19:42
calcpitti: heh19:42
OpenSorceLaserJock, guys.....you did much better with the news of the article than #debian did....I think I'm still baned from there :-)19:42
calcwell quad-core is now fairly common and octo-core will be in a few years19:42
pittiso I have to agree with OpenSorce that 3 year old HW shouldn't be entirely neglected19:43
pwnguinwell, #debian has the dual problem of not being ubuntu, and the title basically being a troll19:43
LaserJockOpenSorce: heh19:43
calcOpenSorce: i think the main reason we don't have ndiswrapper is because its yucky but acx should be made to work better than it did for OpenSorce19:43
calcer for you19:43
OpenSorcecalc, acx_usb works great in Mandriva 2008.019:44
LaserJockOpenSorce: well, look, we obviously don't like negative reviews. If you had hardware-related problems we'd like to fix those19:44
calcOpenSorce: ah then maybe we are missing a driver then19:44
calcOpenSorce: i only saw a acx.ko19:44
pwnguinhow is there already a mandriva 2008.0?19:44
LaserJockOpenSorce: so if you have time to do some bug reporting or an email or something so we can get stuff fixed for other people it'd be helpful19:44
calcOpenSorce: that would something useful to note in the bug report if you create one, since there doesn't appear to be a acx_usb for ubuntu kernel19:45
OpenSorceLaserJock, I can fix them myself honestly I just rate these articles for new users and do things the way newbs would so they don't get discouraged downloading one distro after the other19:45
LaserJockOpenSorce: right, but you have to admit, one negative install based on a particular hardware set is not really gonna help newbs19:46
calcOpenSorce: probably part of the difference in response is that #debian is mostly (all?) users and ubuntu-devel is mostly developers19:46
OpenSorcecalc, I'll try to do that....gotta get openSuse download and start my review of it as soon as I finish this review19:46
LaserJockthere are thousands and thousands of people who will have no such problems19:46
OpenSorceLaserJock, it's a random sampling....and I just report my findings19:46
calcit would be nice to eventually have a hardware database for ubuntu that could note what is known to work and what doesn't19:46
LaserJockbut it's not random sampling19:46
OpenSorceLaserJock, since my review of driva 2008 there have been like 20 installs of it throughout the staff.....no issues....not one19:47
LaserJockthat's good19:47
calcOpenSorce: did the nvidia video not work at all, or just not install the non-free driver?19:48
pwnguinwell, now we know where to steal patches from ;)19:48
cjwatsonOpenSorce: FYI, we ship ndiswrapper on the CD for users who are stuck; just don't install it by default because the result is very hard to support in practice19:48
OpenSorceLaserJock, I agree with you......I'm going to have at least 5 more people run Kubuntu 7.10 in live cd mode and see if it works before I release the article19:48
LaserJockOpenSorce: I've installed Gutsy on several computers with not a single hardware issue too19:48
OpenSorcecalc, it didn't install the proprietary driver....but I know Kubuntu doesn't do that.....it should19:49
OpenSorceLaserJock, did they have wifi?19:49
LaserJockOpenSorce: good, please do. I certainly don't mind you reporting what failed for you. But I think it's a stretch to call that representitive19:49
LaserJockOpenSorce: yes19:49
LaserJockATI, Nvidia graphics, and Atheros for wifi19:50
OpenSorceLaserJock, well most of these folks are running cheap lappies (acer) if it does better as a rule we'll take another look before publishing19:51
calcOpenSorce: is it an intel based laptop?19:51
LaserJockOpenSorce: all of my machines are chepo machines at least 3 years old19:51
OpenSorcecalc, yes19:51
cjwatsonOpenSorce: we'd like to find out why the free drivers are failing for you, as just installing the proprietary driver doesn't move the state of free software forward particularly well; so we'd be interested in your bug report in the context of why the free drivers aren't working, rather than "hey, you guys, you should default to the proprietary driver" :-)19:51
LaserJockI'm just a poor grad student19:51
OpenSorcebrb testing19:52
calcOpenSorce: intel ones likely work no problem at all, amd probably too though they usually use broadcom which i am not as familar with19:52
cjwatson(we have to think of the longer term as well as the short term)19:52
calccjwatson: it sounds like we might be missing a driver for him, acx_usb19:52
=== Yvonne_ is now known as Yvonne
cjwatsonyes, that may need to be pulled into linux-ubuntu-modules19:53
cjwatson(it's not in the stock kernel tree)19:53
sladenOpenSorce: short term aim is to try and get _a_ driver that works on that piece of hardware;  longer term we want to get _a free driver_ that works on that piece of hardware19:54
cjwatsonusb.c is actually compiled into acx.ko ...19:54
sladenbut that's pretty much was cjwatson said19:54
=== norsetto_limbo is now known as norsetto
cjwatsonso you need a kernel team member to figure this out, which is best done by means of a bug :)19:55
pwnguinOpenSorce: if you really want to document the suitability of Ubuntu 7.10 or not, try digging through the bug reports ;)19:56
pwnguinplenty of "my wireless doesn't work" and "sound broken [regression]"19:57
mathiazjdstrand: about bug 119075, do you think the priority should still be high ?19:57
ubotuLaunchpad bug 119075 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "Root password policy for mysql" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/11907519:57
jdstrandmathiaz: checking...19:58
jdstrandmathiaz: for gutsy and later? no.  IMO this is Wishlist.  gutsy and higher prompts for the password, so not a security issue any more.19:59
OpenSorcepwnguin, I test the suitability for new users.....they would dig through bug reports20:00
mathiazjdstrand: ok. Thanks.20:01
jdstrandmathiaz: np20:01
pwnguinOpenSorce: im not saying they would. im saying that if you're trying to gather a representative sample of the kinds of problems out there, the bugtracker is a tool for muckracking journalism ^_^20:01
OpenSorceso far 3 out of 5 live cd runs fail to recognize and setup the wifi cards....I'm sorry the article is going to run as-is20:02
OpenSorcepwnguin, I hate to tell you this but new users who can't connect to the internet do not often file bug reports20:02
calcOpenSorce: in the article could you also document which chipsets the wifi you tested are?20:02
OpenSorcethanks so much for your time guys20:02
pwnguinjeebus h mcchrysty20:02
pwnguinim not saying they will20:02
pwnguinim saying if you're looking for dirt20:03
OpenSorcecalc, yes I always list the hardware....it doesn't always get printed but I always submit it20:03
OpenSorcepwnguin, okay and thanks again you guys, good luck on the next release20:03
LaserJockOpenSorce: thanks20:04
LaserJockOpenSorce: and really, if you have a chance we'd love to get some followup on those hardware issues :-)20:05
ajmitchgood morning20:12
pochumorning ajmitch20:16
smallfoot-i downloaded 7.10 gutsy today, then i saw a wubi file on the cd, and i clicked on it, and suddently it started to install stuff on my computer, without ask me20:25
Mithrandircjwatson: mkfs.ext3 on the netboot images is borked, it seems.  Can't find libblkid  (amd64)20:34
evandsmallfoot-: you shouldn't click on executables that you do not know the purpose of.20:36
LaserJockevand: it should also be self-explanitor what executables are ;-)20:37
LaserJockyou can't expect people to not click on things20:37
evandwell, if you can think of an easy way of saying "use the windows bootloader to start the install to avoid having to change the drive order in BIOS", I'm all ears :)20:38
Mithrandirevand: it could pop up a dialog saying what it's for, then give the user an option to continue or quit20:38
CarlFKnot all exes can have GUIs20:39
LaserJockMithrandir: exactly20:39
evandMithrandir, LaserJock, smallfoot-, fair enough.  I'll ask xivulon to make the change for Hardy.20:39
LaserJockCarlFK: no, but ones that start installing files to disk should ask before doing so20:40
CarlFKI will agree it is an issue.  but I think working on it has a pretty low return on investment20:40
AmaranthDo you think an SRU to add things to the compiz blacklist would be accepted?20:40
LaserJockit really just starts installing?20:40
LaserJockI'd click it :-)20:40
AmaranthSeems we missed a couple of the new set of ATI cards we blacklisted20:40
LaserJockAmaranth: I was utterly shocked that compiz worked out-of-the-box on my ancient ATI card. Really surprised me20:43
LaserJockI thought only nvidia and intel were working with compiz by default20:43
AmaranthLaserJock: The ancient cards are fine, even the Radeon 7000 (just don't use wobbly)20:43
AmaranthThe problem is some r300 and r400 cards20:43
LaserJockyeah, I vahve a 7000 IGP20:43
LaserJockbut I gave me fits so I turned it off20:44
Amaranthcompiz 'works' on pretty much everything that supports non-power-of-two textures and texture_from_pixmap20:44
LaserJockat some point I might try to see if I can figure what was messing up windows20:44
Amaranthso older ATI, intel, and nvidia (and new ATI with the just released fglrx 8.42)20:44
AmaranthJust released as in it should be out right about now :P20:45
CarlFKMithrandir: cuz you said  "netboot images is borked"... you doing anything with apt and proxies?  'something' seems to have just changed in the last 24 hours20:47
MithrandirCarlFK: yes, I'm using a proxy, but I don't see why that should affect anything.20:47
CarlFKseperate issue20:47
CarlFKmonths ago I logged a bug (lloking for it) that I worked around with 'goofy'  preseed file  settings.  it may have gotten fixed, and now goofy=broke20:50
ubotuLaunchpad bug 117398 in debian-installer "netboot install proxy apt-cacher" [Undecided,New]20:51
smallfoot-evand, thanks i look forward to Hardy, i was really scared when it started to install stuff, when i clicked on it, i just wanted to check what it was, i've heard about wubi before, so i thought it would prompt me, not just run the install21:01
smallfoot-also, another thing, gutsy comes with firefox, but its not clear what version it is21:01
evandsmallfoot-: sorry, I believe it was an oversight that grew out of the fact that originally you'd get a dialog (as it was wubi), but as time went on it became just a utility to let you install without changing the boot order.21:02
smallfoot-it should be made clear what version it is though, so if firefox is still in hardy, put so it displays its version21:03
jdongsmallfoot-: why is it unclear the version of Firefox in Gutsy?21:04
jdongthe help->About box is labeled, debin pkg is   Installed:
smallfoot-oh, sorry for being unclear21:07
smallfoot-i meant on the CD21:07
smallfoot-on the gutsy cd, there is a windows version of firefox21:07
evandsmallfoot-: you should probably file a bug.21:17
evandsmallfoot-: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-winfoss/+filebug21:17
smallfoot-evand, dont have account21:35
smallfoot-would appreciate if you did it for me21:35
evandsmallfoot-: sure thing21:35
Keybukcjwatson: still around?21:35
Mithrandircjwatson: false alarm, it was something else that went wrong, it seems21:39
=== ivoks_ is now known as ivoks
mdkehaha, love the dictionary extract on the website22:07
=== lamego_ is now known as Lamego
OpenSorceLaserJock, if I get permission to wait 2 weeks on my Kubuntu 7.10 review do you think it'll make much difference?22:12
ScottKOpenSorce: I'd say it depends a lot on what exactly your concerns were and are they ones that can be fixed with stable release updates (meaning fit the criteria, have developers interested in working on them, and have reasonable solutions available).22:15
LaserJockOpenSorce: well, it's possible that if the issues that are causing you problems can be fixed via a Stable Release Update that they could get fixed22:15
calcwhen does hardy open up? :)22:15
LaserJockcalc: isn't it already?22:15
OpenSorceLaserJock, how often d SRU's come out for Ubuntu?22:15
ScottKLaserJock: No.  It's still syncing.22:16
ScottKOpenSorce: They are published when they are ready, not on a set schedule.22:16
LaserJockOpenSorce: as soon as a fix can be isolated, uploaded, and tested22:16
LaserJockif it's a problem with proprietary drivers it might be quite difficult22:16
LaserJockif it's a problem that's easy to fix it can be quite quick22:16
LaserJockOpenSorce: you've already seen that several of our developers are interested in helping fix the problems you were seeing22:17
OpenSorceLaserJock, the problem is that on 6 out of 6 machines Kubuntu 7.10 failed to properly setup the wifi cards22:17
calcOpenSorce: are they all the same chipset or different ones?22:18
LaserJockif you can work with them giving them information and maybe testing fixes it should be reasonable22:18
calcLaserJock: nope no hardy yet on a.u.c ;-)22:18
LaserJockbut I'm just a lackey so don't take what I say as set in stone22:18
OpenSorceLaserJock, you might be interested to know that we did the exact same test with Mandriva 2008....which either set them up or gave us a gui app to help us make ndiswrapper drivers for them22:18
* calc is guessing it won't open until after uds22:19
ubotuMandriva bug 2008 in Core Packages "reloading the user config or system menu closes the menudrake window" [Normal,Resolved: duplicate] http://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=200822:19
LaserJockOpenSorce: yes, so we've got to isolate what drivers (and versions), etc. that Mandriva's using22:19
ajmitchcalc: it's usually open beforehand22:19
calcajmitch: ok22:20
LaserJockcalc: really? in the past it's copied over but doko doesn't break everything until UDS ;-)22:20
OpenSorceLaserJock, ok...well if you think that waiting two weeks will help I will wait and note that in the article22:20
calcLaserJock: heh22:20
calcdoko: its time for you to break hardy ;)22:20
ajmitchcalc: you just want to upload OOo again, don't you?22:20
calcajmitch: heh not yet, 2.3.1 won't be ready for probably another few weeks22:21
LaserJockOpenSorce: well, I would say that waiting alone might not get you much in two weeks. We need to get the kernel guys to help figure out what to do it sounds like22:21
calcajmitch: i just never run stable releases of linux ;)22:21
ajmitchhehe :)22:21
* ajmitch hands calc a copy of sid22:21
calcwell i did earlier this year but only because ipw3945 was too broken for to use it at all :\22:21
LaserJockcalc: you don't do new uploads just to change positions of the Ubuntu logo in the splash? ;-)22:21
calcajmitch: i ran sid for about 7 years22:21
ajmitchLaserJock: oh that's evil22:21
calcajmitch: well thats not strictly true, when i started using debian in 1998 sid wasn't really unstable it was a spot for completely broken things to go, more so than now22:22
OpenSorceLaserJock, okay....we'll wait....thanks again :-)22:22
ajmitch"hm, the colour doesn't quite look right, let's upload again!"22:22
ajmitchcalc: yeah, I started with debian not long after that :)22:22
LaserJockOpenSorce: I do hope things can be fixed for you. 0 out of 6 is no good22:22
calcajmitch: iirc they didn't switch sid to be unstable until pools were implemented22:22
ajmitch& ran sid until just after warty was out22:22
calci switched to warty when the first cd announcement was made in ~ sept 2004 (i think)22:23
LaserJockI *started* running sid a couple weeks ago22:23
calcLaserJock: you're a n00b ;-)22:24
LaserJockso maybe by 15.04 I can say "back in the day when I ran sid"22:24
* ajmitch feels sorry for mvo, all these spurious upgrade failures beind filed against update-manager22:24
LaserJockjust think, by then a whole generation of developers will have no idea where the names come from :(22:24
calcLaserJock: hmm yea TS will be ~ 20 years old then22:25
ajmitcha cult classic, I'm sure22:25
LaserJockby that time we'll have Debian releases like "3rd sheep"22:25
LaserJockthey'll be digging in the credits looking for names22:26
calcdebian still hasn't used stinky has it?22:26
calcdebian stinky sounds like a good release to me22:26
LaserJockslinky, but not stinky22:26
LaserJockI think22:26
calcfor stinky pete22:26
ajmitchLaserJock: you assume that there'l be that many debian releases in that time22:26
calcslink was 2.1 iirc22:26
LaserJockajmitch: ohhh, right. I forgot22:26
ajmitchmaybe one every 18months-2 years22:27
LaserJockis that why the only release when there's some sort of astrological alignment?22:27
LaserJockthey're afraid of running out of names22:27
calcLaserJock: nah, just too much red tape22:27
calcif they run out of TS names they will probably move to the next pixar movie22:28
mc44Toy Story 2? :)22:29
LaserJockcalc: well, isn't it a trilogy22:29
calcLaserJock: but most of the same characters22:29
LaserJockso maybe they can ask Mark to fund Toy Story 4 as a good will gesture ;-)22:29
calcthey'll gain a few more names22:29
calcoh i didn't know TS3 is coming out in 201022:30
jcoledoes totem-gstreamer now support dvd menus?22:45
jcoleor do i have to install totem-xine again22:45
mjg59jcole: No, it doesn't22:58
jcolemjg59: ok22:59
jcolemjg59: btw, what is the recommended dvd playback app for ubuntu... totem-xine?23:00
jcolemjg59: thats what's always worked for me23:00
mjg59gxine will also work23:02
mjg59I don't think we have a recommended one23:02
jcolemjg59: good point, then i dont have to clobber totem-gstreamer23:03
jcolemjg59: thank23:03
pipegeekI'm wondering what the recommended means of getting reiser4 working under gutsy are.  Seems reiser4progs are in the repository for some reason, but the filesystem itself isn't.23:06
mjg59There isn't one23:07
ScottKpipegeek: I think the recommendation is don't23:07
pipegeekOK..... but, then, why is reiser4progs included?23:07
pipegeekif it's not meant to be used23:07
mjg59The tools are provided for anyone who wants to build their own kernel, but we don't support the use of the filesystem23:08
pipegeekfair enough. :^(23:08
pipegeekthanks, folks.23:08
jcolepipegeek: http://packages.ubuntu.com/gutsy/admin/reiser4progs23:09
pipegeekjcole: that doesn't contain the filesystem23:09
jcolepipegeek: kernel-patch-2.6-reiser4 "Package not available"23:09
pipegeekthere's the answer23:09
jcolepipegeek: apt-get source kernel-patch-2.6-reiser423:10
jcolepipegeek: or whatever, and patch your kernel23:10
pipegeekyeah.... not worth a rebuild23:10
pipegeekand there's no such package, fyi23:10
geserjcole: kernel-patch-2.6-reiser4 is on the sync blacklist23:14
pipegeekJust out of curiosity, might I inquire as to the reasons behind this policy?23:15
pipegeek(I can think of several, I'm just curious)23:15
geserUbuntu doesn't "support" the packaged kernel patches23:17
pipegeekbut if I were interested in taking a look for myself (because you seem to imply that they *have* been packaged).... where might I find them?23:18
geserit's not only this kernel patch on the blacklist but all packaged kernel patches23:18
geserin Debian23:18
pipegeekgot it23:18
pipegeekthank you.23:18
pipegeek^.^  Sorry for being a pain23:18
geserbut no guarantee that they even apply on the Ubuntu kernel source23:19
pipegeekwell, it's a project for some future day23:19
Lamegowhat are the benefits of using reiser4 ?23:20
pipegeekNever have; wanted to play with it.  This is for my home system, not for anything important23:20
slangasekcalc: so far the Debian release names have been restricted to characters named on-screen in TS1, I don't think stinky pete qualifies?23:21
=== chuck_ is now known as zul
calcslangasek: yea he was in TS2 so it will be a while23:36
slangasekcalc: assuming the RMs want to use TS2 names at all23:45

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