[01:06] <LaserJock> arggg
[01:06]  * LaserJock kicks Firefox
[01:10]  * LaserJock tries to find a less sucky browser
[01:11] <ajmitch> hello LaserJock :)
[01:11] <LaserJock> hola andrew
[01:11] <lifeless> keescook: ping
[01:12] <RAOF_> LaserJock: Until ff-3 got native gtk form widgets, I was using Epiphany.  That works well.
[01:12] <mneptok> w3m
[01:13] <LaserJock> "N.B. software from this repository is ENTIRELY UNSUPPORTED by the Ubuntu team"
[01:14] <LaserJock> ^^ seems a little harsh for Universe
[01:14] <ajmitch> unsupported by canonical, at least
[01:14] <LaserJock> exactly
[01:14] <crimsun> it seems right on, actually.  It certainly doesn't "give the wrong impression" for best-effort community support.
[01:15] <LaserJock> I didn't know Canonical == Ubuntu team
[01:15] <lifeless> there's an equality proof somewhere.
[01:15] <LaserJock> crimsun: but it's *is* supported by the community
[01:16] <LaserJock> that statement makes it sound like they're be no sense in filing a bug for a Universe package
[01:16] <LaserJock> and in fact it would be discouraged because it's unsupported software
[01:16] <LaserJock> or am I reading too much into "ENTIRELY UNSUPPORTED"
[01:17] <ajmitch> within universe there are different levels of community support as well
[01:18] <LaserJock> sure
[01:18] <LaserJock> but imperfect support is far from no support, IMO anyway
[01:18] <ajmitch> agreed
[01:19] <ajmitch> it certainly conveys the impression that people shouldn't expect fixes, at least
[01:19] <slangasek> I suppose it's a question of not misleading users into thinking they'll get more support than they will
[01:19] <ajmitch> it probably does go too far in that direction
[01:20] <LaserJock> I guess I better not get on a "demotivating" kick again
[01:21] <LaserJock> but seriously, calling Universe entirely unsupported by the Ubuntu team seems a bit much
[01:24] <lifeless> LaserJock: I think there is a legal issue here too
[01:24] <lifeless> I can imagine some jurisdictions equating support with liability.
[01:25] <lifeless> and as there is no guarantee of even a trivial fix for universe in the event of a problem
[01:25] <LaserJock> ok, so why should there be a Main/Universe separation there?
[01:26] <LaserJock> so Canonical's taking on legal liability for Main?
[01:26] <lifeless> thats not what I'm saying
[01:27] <lifeless> and in fact not even implied. Take security fixes for instance.
[01:27] <lifeless> there are security fixes for Main.
[01:27] <lifeless> If you have something in main, and there is a known vuln with it, that will get into -security quite rapidly.
[01:28] <LaserJock> well, there is a larger chance anyway
[01:31] <LaserJock> seems like a "Universe is community supported" would suffice
[01:31] <LaserJock> are there legal ramifications to that statement?
[01:32] <lifeless> IANAL
[01:33] <LaserJock> of course, nobody ever is
[01:34] <RAOF_> Except for *lawyers*, of which I'd imagine Canonical has access to a few.
[01:35] <LaserJock> seems like a perfectly harmless statement
[01:40] <mpt> "community supported" is a meaningful phrase if you're familiar with the Ubuntu development structure
[01:40] <mpt> but perhaps not if you're not
[01:41] <LaserJock> maybe less
[01:41] <LaserJock> but I think it's still fairly understandable
[01:45] <johanbr> I think a true statement understood by some is better than a misleading statement understood by all.
[01:47] <slangasek> that likely depends on the nature of the misunderstanding in the first case :)
[01:52] <Burgundavia> it could explicitly say that it is not supported by Canonical
[01:55] <pwnguin> why does ubuntu publish what canonical does and doesn't support?
[01:55] <zul> probably more for canonical customers
[01:55] <pwnguin> i realize the two are highly intertwined in some fashion
[01:56] <Burgundavia> that has been defined since day 1, pwnguin
[01:56] <pwnguin> and on day 366 the Ubuntu Foundation was created (dont quote me on that day)
[01:56] <Burgundavia> because, not shockingly, customers and potential customers like more information, not less
[01:56] <Burgundavia> the foundation does not do anything
[01:58] <pwnguin> at least from my point of view, it seems like Canonical has ownership / responsibility of main, but every time someone suggests it, people point out all the non-Canonical people in Core Dev
[01:59] <pwnguin> which, i should point out, im fine with.
[01:59] <Burgundavia> both are right
[01:59] <Burgundavia> basically, there are non-Canonical people who can commit to Main and Restricted
[01:59] <Burgundavia> but for security patches, that is the job of canonical
[02:00] <Burgundavia> and they have said, for very sane reasons, that they are only goint o support main and restricted
[02:00] <mjg59> Canonical take responsibility for main, whoever puts stuff in there
[02:00] <pwnguin> i figured the ubuntu foundation was taking responsibility for that once it was created, but i guess not
[02:01] <mjg59> The Ubuntu Foundation exists to take responsibility for Ubuntu should Canonical stop doing so
[02:01] <Burgundavia> the foundation is currently just a storehouse of money in case anything happens to Canonical
[02:01] <pwnguin> so the UF is basicaly a 10 million dollar insurance policy ;)
[02:01] <Burgundavia> don't you love Mark?
[02:01] <pwnguin> heh
[02:02] <Burgundavia> in all seriousness, the foundation was setup because at the time, people were questioning whether this was all just a flash in the pan or not
[02:03] <pwnguin> at the time, i thought the foundation was an effort to seperate canonical legally from ubuntu somewhat
[02:04] <Burgundavia> nope
[02:04] <pwnguin> i suppose it does seperate their fates somewhat
[02:13] <LaserJock> so if Canonical goes under do the copyrights go to the foundation?
[02:14] <elmo> LaserJock: <unofficial and hand-wavy>yes, that's the plan/point of the foundation
[02:15] <LaserJock> ah, I see
[02:15] <LaserJock> makes sense
[02:15] <pwnguin> plans are like wills
[02:15] <pwnguin> well, i guess this plan is like a will
[02:16] <Burgundavia> except wills are legal
[02:17] <Burgundavia> I honestly have no idea as the actual legal stuff in place
[02:17] <pwnguin> only if they're written down somewhere
[02:17] <Burgundavia> although as a member of the CC, I guess I should
[02:17] <pwnguin> which was sorta my point. wills are a great idea everyone figures they'll do later after everything important's done =/
[02:18] <elmo> pwnguin: Canonical's not a VC, we're not going to suddenly run out of money
[02:18] <pwnguin> right
[02:18] <pwnguin> you havent contradicted anything ive said. i doubt canonical is in any large danger of dying, unless sabdfl suffers a massive paternity suit
[02:19] <elmo> the only danger of the foundation not happening is the hypothetical of Canonical going evil, and I doubt even the strictest legal stuff could realistically be safe from that (and allow Canonical to function even in non-evil mode)
[02:19] <pwnguin> the thing a contract outright would do is save on legal costs
[02:20] <pwnguin> instead of having to prove that Ubunutu community / foundation has a right to the copyrights etc
[02:20] <elmo> actually, that's not even true.  I'm not expressing myself well at all, as it's way too late
[02:20] <elmo> pwnguin: copyrights are largely irrelevant?  Ubuntu is all free software
[02:20] <LaserJock> yeah, I wondered what the heck you were doing up at this hour :-)
[02:20] <elmo> if the license is truly free, it doesn't matter if the copyright is assigned to Canonical or Billy Bob
[02:21] <pwnguin> elmo: in a worst case scenario, i imagine the name and logo alone would divide the community
[02:21] <LaserJock> elmo: I just wondered as I guess technically I've signed over copyrights to Canonical before so I wondered
[02:22] <elmo> pwnguin: so, that's trademark - a very different thing from copyright.   and ubuntu, IMO, is more than it's logo/name.  i.e. if it had to be changed, it'd hardly be the end of the world
[02:22] <pwnguin> elmo: hence the etc
[02:22] <elmo> LaserJock: sure, it's a reasonable question.  the UF stuff isn't as clear as I'd like
[02:23] <pwnguin> elmo: at any rate, unlike a will, canonical's death is not inevitable
[02:23] <elmo> pwnguin: right
[02:24]  * pwnguin wonders what that 10 million does right now
[02:26] <pwnguin> a guy from ibiblio stopped by today to talk to the uni's library. they have a fairly unique situation
[02:27] <mjg59> elmo: Well. Mark's pockets only go /so/ deep
[02:28] <pwnguin> actually, im thinking of the internet archive
[02:29] <elmo> mjg59: well, sure.  but it would take something pretty dramatic (massive lawsuits?) to stop Canonical, rather than VC people going 'hmm, this isn't making us money fast enough', I guess is my point
[02:30] <ScottK> slangasek: Thanks (re: ScottK: 76983 release-noted)
[02:30] <mjg59> Oh, yeah
[02:34] <ScottK> LaserJock: You can't technically sign over a copyright (at least not in the US).  It requires an explicit transfer (which is why, among other things SCO-Novell was a slam dunk for Novell).
[02:35] <LaserJock> hmm
[02:36] <pwnguin> whats the difference between an explicit transfer and "signing over" copyright?
[02:36] <LaserJock> so what am I doing when I make packages and say Copyright Canonical Ltd. ?
[02:36] <pwnguin> LaserJock: is it a work for hire?
[02:36] <ScottK> LaserJock: Well that would be an explicit transfer I suppose, but why are you doing that?
[02:37] <ScottK> pwnguin: Nothing really, just that it can't be implicit.
[02:38] <ScottK> As an example, the core of SCO's case against Novell was something like "Everyone knew the copyrights transferred even though it doesn't say that in the contract."  That can't work.
[02:38]  * ScottK spends too much time reading Groklaw.
[02:39] <pwnguin> was that in question here?
[02:40] <ScottK> No.  Probably not.
[02:40] <ScottK> "technically I've signed over copyrights" is what i was keying on.  Sounded implicit to me.
[02:41] <LaserJock> pwnguin: no it wasn't work for hire
[02:42] <pwnguin> LaserJock: what exactly did you turn copyright over for then?
[02:42] <LaserJock> ScottK: cause everbody else was, I didn't want to be the odd man out ;-)
[02:42] <pwnguin> ah, heh
[02:42] <ScottK> Really.  The only people I've seen to that are Canonical employees who are doing it for hire.  For them it would be wrong not to.
[02:43] <pwnguin> well, i donno about wrong
[02:43] <pwnguin> canonical can certainly ASK them to
[02:43] <pwnguin> and condition payment upon it
[02:43] <ScottK> It varies by jurisdiction.
[02:44] <LaserJock> in any case, I saw enough of it that I just assumed that that was the status quo
[02:44] <ScottK> In the US (which is what I'm most familiar with, but not where most Canonical employees are), a work made for hire automatically belongs to whoever pays.
[02:44] <ScottK> Which is a perfectly reasonable reason to be doing it.
[02:45] <pwnguin> forgive me for not using names in this example, but i dont know the core devel activities well
[02:45] <pwnguin> but if the ubuntu gcc maintainer hired by canonical makes a patch to gcc, he'd need permission from canonical to submit upstream?
[02:46] <holycow> depends on canonical policies
[02:46] <holycow> their policies may indeed be lax enough so he/she doesn't haveto
[02:46] <mjg59> pwnguin: If carried out on work time in most jurisdictions, yes
[02:46] <pwnguin> fun
[02:47] <mjg59> But it's perfectly possible for there to be an implicit agreement that it's not an issue
[02:47] <mjg59> And, of course, if it's a derived work of a GPLed product then if you ever distribute it the entire source has to be under the GPL
[02:47] <pwnguin> now wait a minute. ScottK just suggested implicit assignment wasn't allowed
[02:47] <mjg59> At which point anyone can do what they want
[02:47] <mjg59> pwnguin: That isn't implicit assignment
[02:47] <pwnguin> the point here is that the FSF requires you to hand over copyright
[02:47] <pwnguin> if they are to accept your work
[02:47] <holycow> only if you distribute it
[02:48] <pwnguin> no
[02:48] <pwnguin> only if you want them to take it
[02:48] <mjg59> That's because they have different policies to everyone else
[02:49] <LaserJock> yeah, I always thought that was kinda creepy
[02:50] <elmo> there's some definite advantages to copyright assignment
[02:50] <ScottK> Gives them a way to make sure something uses GPL v3.
[02:50] <LaserJock> yeah
[02:50] <LaserJock> I understand their reasoning, it's just still a bit creepy
[02:50] <mjg59> Gives them the right to start lawsuits if someone infringes
[02:50] <pwnguin> whether you like it or not =/
[02:50] <ScottK> They aren't the only ones that do it.
[02:50] <mjg59> It's their project - it's their policy
[02:50] <pwnguin> do you need everyone's permission to start a suit?
[02:50] <mjg59> No
[02:50] <ScottK> mjg59: As long as they have some copyright code that's all that matters, it doesn't need to be all.
[02:51] <ScottK> It does make it easier for them to settle.
[02:51] <mjg59> If they infringe the whole of gcc, fine
[02:51] <elmo> pwnguin: but the judge can dismiss a lawsuit you start as 'without standing' if you don't own majority of the code
[02:51] <mjg59> If they only take part of it, it's harder
[02:51] <mjg59> Unless you have copyright assignment
[02:52] <ScottK> Agreed.
[02:52] <ScottK> Red Hat does the same for Cygwin (requires assignment).
[02:52] <ScottK> In that case it's so they can dual license it and make money with it.
[02:53] <LaserJock> how's that work?
[02:53] <mjg59> Yes, that's the reason Sun do it for Openoffice
[02:53] <mjg59> LaserJock: If you own the copyright, you can sublicense under any terms you want
[02:53] <pwnguin> LaserJock: they own the copyright. it's their property now
[02:54] <LaserJock> yeah, but how do they make money on a dual-license
[02:54] <pwnguin> one license is GPL. the other is "pay us and you dont have to publish source"
[02:54] <LaserJock> ahh
[02:55] <ScottK> Yep.
[02:56] <pwnguin> i hear reiser works in a similar manner
[02:56] <LaserJock> is that the same with QT?
[02:56] <pwnguin> i think so
[02:57] <slangasek> "pay us and we'll give you the version of the fs that doesn't eat data muhahaha"
[02:57] <pwnguin> heh
[02:57] <lifeless> pwnguin: copyright can be granted without diminishing ones own rights.
[02:57] <lifeless> pwnguin: so no, its not their property now.
[02:58] <pwnguin> this conflicts with my understanding of property
[02:58] <lifeless> clearly you consider copyright property; its not.
[02:58] <LaserJock> it's the right to copy? :-)
[02:59] <lifeless> its a mistake to think of abstractions like patents and copyright as forms of 'property', unlike property they can be shared without diminishing in value.
[02:59] <pwnguin> somehow i think its a mistake to use economic abstractions about constructs of law
[03:00] <slangasek> lifeless: but "copyright can be granted without diminishing one's own rights" doesn't follow either, copyright is the right of exclusive control to decide who can make copies
[03:00] <slangasek> s/copyright/licenses to copy/, and ok
[03:00] <lifeless> slangasek: hmm, not quite right there AIUI. I can assign copyright on something i created to you; wherein you gain and I lose the right to decide.
[03:01] <lifeless> slangasek: but I can alternatively decide to share that control with you
[03:01] <lifeless> where you can say 'X can copy' and I can say 'Y can copy'
[03:01] <pwnguin> i imagine the courts hate that
[03:01] <lifeless> pwnguin: well, the government grants the root monopoly
[03:01] <ScottK> Just to complicate things, some countries have moral rights of authorship that cannot be sold transferred or anything.
[03:01] <pwnguin> i vaguely recall Elite having something similar to that
[03:02] <lifeless> ScottK: I have vague memories of the Berne convention being involved in that
[03:03]  * ScottK has vague memories of it being French and common in countries with Napoleonic law systems.
[03:03] <mjg59> The extent of moral rights differs between states
[03:03] <ScottK> It doesn't exist at all in the US.  I do know that.
[03:03] <mjg59> In the UK, it's limited to asserting the right to be identified as the author
[03:03] <mjg59> In France, it includes not allowing the work to be used in ways you don't approve of
[03:04] <lifeless> anyhow the primary point is that unlike physical goods while copyright *can* be treated as a fungible good, its got wider transactions available to its owners than any physical media
[03:04] <mjg59> The interaction between this and the GPL has not been tesetd
[03:04] <pwnguin> is there any reason to treat copyright as a sharable good?
[03:05] <mjg59> Yes. It's hard to make money off it otherwise.
[03:06] <pwnguin> not the copies
[03:06] <pwnguin> the idea of sharing 100 percent of the right to copy with another entity, without losing the right yourself
[03:06] <lifeless> by sharable good, you mean e.g. 'like a physical book' ?
[03:06] <mjg59> pwnguin: Yes. It's hard to make money otherwise.
[03:07] <mjg59> Well, permiting only exclusive assignments would still work there
[03:07] <lifeless> we use the shared assignment in bzr
[03:07] <mjg59> But the opportunity to let someone else make money off your copyrighted goods is a fundamental aspect of the traditional mechanism of making money off copyrighted goods
[03:08] <lifeless> Canonical as the sponsoring organisation wants copyright on the code in bzr, so that we can manage the licence effectively over time. But we have no wish or need to remove the copyright from the author.
[03:09] <lifeless> this lowers the barrier to getting authors to assign copyright - they lose nothing compared to a hand-it-all-over scenario
[03:10] <pwnguin> the code that makes bzr run, or code in bzr repos?
[03:10] <lifeless> uh
[03:10] <lifeless> what do you think?
[03:11] <pwnguin> well, i wasnt aware that canonical was involved with bzr development at all until recently
[03:11] <pwnguin> what i think is probably not important or correct
[03:11] <lifeless> the code of bzr itself
[03:11] <lifeless> what people version with bzr is none of our business ;)
[03:12] <pwnguin> well, launchpad hosts bzr repos
[03:13] <pwnguin> it could have been some wierd requirement; look at the ppas
[03:13] <LaserJock> lifeless: can the code author "back out" of assignment
[03:13] <LaserJock> ?
[03:13] <pwnguin> LaserJock: revoke a transfer, or abandon it?
[03:13] <LaserJock> well, can they at any time say they don't want to share anymore
[03:14] <elmo> pwnguin: err, what's weird about the PPA requirements?
[03:14] <lifeless> pwnguin: ppas? What do they need ?
[03:14] <pwnguin> elmo: last i knew
[03:14] <pwnguin> i had to indemnify canonical
[03:14] <ajmitch> from what I can tell, the PPA terms of service are just a fairly standard CYA template
[03:15] <ScottK> They are not unusual, but they aren't very community friendly IMO.
[03:15] <ScottK> According to the status on the bug I filed about it, it's being revised somehow.
[03:16] <ScottK> We'll see.
[03:16] <lifeless> pwnguin: launchpad requires open source for *the repo's it hosts*.
[03:16] <pwnguin> like multiverse ;)
[03:16] <lifeless> pwnguin: which is nothing to do with your using bzr onyour own project or your own site
[03:16] <pwnguin> i know what you mean
[03:17] <elmo> JOOI, do other 'community' sites have not have similar terms?
[03:17] <elmo> SF, savannah, novell's forge, whatever
[03:17] <pwnguin> google's is pretty lenient
[03:17] <pwnguin> but i better double check
[03:18] <elmo> ORLY
[03:18] <elmo> http://code.google.com/tos.html
[03:19] <pwnguin> thank you for finding that
[03:21] <pwnguin> it doesn't matter to me much. im quite enjoying my ppa, patent infrigment indeminifcation be damned
[03:23] <pwnguin> i just recalled scottk thinking the ppa terms were outrageous. perhaps it is scottK who is outrageous!
[03:23] <ScottK> pwnguin: It may be the latter.
[03:23] <ScottK> I think they aren't unusual, but unfortunate and not very community oriented.  I'd have hoped for better from Canonical.
[03:25] <elmo> ScottK: what's your definition of 'community oriented'?
[03:26] <slangasek> "lacking in fiduciary oversight" ;)
[03:26] <ScottK> elmo: In this case, I'd like to feel that if I did nothing wrong, but got sued anyway it'd be Canonical and me versus the idiot that sued.  Bt the TOS, it'd be me and Canonical being sued and Canonical looking for me to pay their lawyer bills even if I'd done nothing to violat the PPA Terms of Service.
[03:27] <ScottK> I think it's perfectly fine to ask for indemnification if someone uploads something that's not legally distributable.
[03:28] <ScottK> What bothers me is I can do everything legal and correct, violate no terms of service, and yet Canonical wants me to pay their lawyers.
[03:28] <elmo> if Canonical gets sued for distributing something of yours?
[03:29] <ScottK> Right.
[03:30] <ScottK> They chose to offer this service, so I think sharing of risk for use within the terms of service is reasonable.
[03:30] <lifeless> well
[03:30] <ScottK> If I upload something that's not legal to distribute, that's totally different.
[03:30] <lifeless> You talk about legal-to-distribute
[03:31] <lifeless> but the whole point of a court case would be about proving something is/isn't legal to distribute.
[03:31] <ScottK> Sure.
[03:31] <ScottK> So IMO it'd be quite reasonable to say as long as we win, you don't have to pay.
[03:32] <ScottK> In some obscure juridications (like the US) it's very hard to collect legal fees even if you win.
[03:32] <lifeless> so
[03:32] <lifeless> say I'm a malicious person
[03:33] <lifeless> I could upload a bunch of stuff that you would say is illegal to distribute
[03:33] <lifeless> trigger a bunch of lawsuites
[03:33] <lifeless> who pays from the start of the lawsuit through to the conclusion where I'm shown to be at fault?
[03:34] <ScottK> I'd say we each pay and then at the end where we lose, Canonical hands me a huge bill.
[03:34] <lifeless> which you, as a malicious person, don't pay. Probably can't - it might be millions.
[03:35] <ScottK> I'd imagine that'd be the situation now too.
[03:35] <lifeless> e.g. upload several thousand copies of windows
[03:36] <ScottK> If I were Canonical, I'd take them down when notified and since Canonical doesn't pre-scren the uploads, that'd probaby be enough to cover them.
[03:36] <ScottK> It's just like You Tube and copyrighted videos.  As long as they take them down when notified, they're clean.
[03:36] <lifeless> well, thats enough IANAL speculation for me today; I have bugs to fix.
[03:37] <ScottK> Oh, yeah.  Me too.
[03:54] <tonyyarusso> cjwatson, Riddell, pitti, Hobbsee, slangasek, tfheen: It would be nice if one of you would volunteer to do the offical release announcement in #ubuntu-release-party when the time comes.  You can let us know if you'd be willing to do so in #ubuntu-ops and make appropriate arrangements.
[04:00] <ScottK> tonyyarusso: I get dizzy just looking in there.
[04:00] <ajmitch> tonyyarusso: just set it to +m for an hour or two, they seem noisy enough
[04:00] <tonyyarusso> ajmitch: We'll do that when the time comes.
[04:00] <tonyyarusso> ScottK: yeah, well.  Try moderating it ;)
[04:01] <ScottK> tonyyarusso: No way.  I gave up on the user channels a long time ago.  To much for me.
[04:01] <tonyyarusso> hehe
[04:02] <ajmitch> tonyyarusso: just play with their minds for awhiel :)
[04:02] <tonyyarusso> teehee
[04:02] <ajmitch> they're already anxious about the state of ubuntu.com
[04:12] <Hobbsee> note to self:  don't power off the machine during a dist-upgrade.
[04:14] <ScottK> You aren't the only one.  I recall fixing one bug that I'm pretty sure a mid dist-upgrade reboot/power off is the only way it could have happened.
[04:14] <ScottK> Good morning Hobbsee.
[04:14] <pwnguin> not without a live CD handy
[04:14] <pwnguin> and intimate knowledge of chroot
[04:15] <pwnguin> thats about all i learned from gentoo
[04:15] <pwnguin> how to effectively use chroot
[04:16] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: there are more fun ways to wreck a system
[04:17] <pwnguin> ajmitch: uploading broken dpkg updates?
[04:17] <ajmitch> now that gets exciting
[04:17] <ajmitch> though it can still be worked around
[04:17] <ScottK> Sigkilliing dpkg is always good.
[04:18] <pwnguin> another favorite daredevil trick: upgrading from lenny to feisty
[04:18] <pwnguin> or any other trick along the lines of upgrading debian to ubuntu
[04:18]  * ajmitch successfully did that
[04:19] <ajmitch> sid->hoary
[04:19] <ScottK> pwnguin: Not quite the same, but I did do Dapper --> Gutsy direct as an experiment.
[04:19] <Artemis3> would it be too much to ask to put the .torrents in the pool? just a thought.
[04:19] <evand> hamm->gutsy?
[04:19] <ajmitch> evand: that's just wrong
[04:19] <evand> I'm tempted to try it
[04:19] <evand> just to see what happens
[04:19] <ajmitch> though I'm sure it can be done, just ask Mithrandir
[04:19] <pwnguin> make sure to film it
[04:20] <evand> haha
[04:20] <pwnguin> it only counts if apt-get does ti
[04:20] <pwnguin> no chroot cheating
[04:21] <pwnguin> http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/upgrade-sarge
[04:21] <pwnguin> be afraid
[04:22]  * ScottK has one computer still on Xandros 3 (for my kids).  He is pondering Xandros (sarge derived) --> Gutsy (after backing up data).
[04:22] <Burgundavia> ouch, ubuntu.com just fell over
[04:22] <ajmitch> afraid of the drupal error due to people constantly refreshing the page?
[04:22] <pwnguin> heh
[04:22] <ajmitch> Burgundavia: see #ubuntu-release-party for why
[04:23] <ajmitch> it's mad
[04:23] <Burgundavia> oh juoy
[04:24] <evand> there's a point where IRC becomes completely unreadable.  #ubuntu-release-party seems to be moving at a rate above that.
[04:24] <pwnguin> are ubuntulinux.org and ubuntu.com the same site?
[04:24] <pwnguin> evand: #ubuntu itself often approaches that
[04:25] <evand> pwnguin: I'm smart enough to never attempt to venture in *that* place. ;)
[04:25] <Artemis3> pretty please .torrents in the pool, help save the server's bandwidth ;)
[04:26] <evand> Artemis3: It was said earlier that the torrents will probably not hit the servers until tomorrow.
[04:27] <Artemis3> ok but tomorrow 19 or tomorrow 18? because of utc time, etc...
[04:27] <Hobbsee> morning ScottK
[04:27] <elmo> Artemis3: err, it's not that simple
[04:27] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: oh indeed.  it seems i've been trying them
[04:28] <Artemis3> build a torrent and upload to any public tracker?
[04:28] <pwnguin> heh
[04:28] <pwnguin> put a torrent on thepiratebay
[04:28] <Artemis3> yeah, that would be faster, maybe i will
[04:55] <LaserJock> haha, should I yell "ITS HERE!!!" in #ubuntu-release-party?
[04:55] <Frem> Too late, you've been beaten to the punch like 500 times.
[04:55] <LaserJock> but I bet they go for it again
[04:55] <LaserJock> that's the fun
[04:55] <lifeless> is it done ?
[04:55] <LaserJock> it's like Pavlov's dogs
[04:56] <lifeless> what, they got fat ?
[04:56] <LaserJock> ring a bell and they start drooling
[04:56] <Frem> It's hilarious. There are countdowns to midnight every single hour.
[04:57] <Artemis3> thanks for the torrents
[05:00] <ajmitch> LaserJock: it's madness in there
[05:01] <LaserJock> it is
[05:01] <LaserJock> what fun
[05:03]  * ajmitch might grab the iso images in a week or so
[05:04] <ajmitch> until then, I'll refresh some QA tools & other things to fix :)
[05:05] <LaserJock> wow
[05:05] <LaserJock> ajmitch: I just signed up on shipit
[05:05] <ajmitch> I tend to leave images to burn on the laptop for when I need them
[05:05] <LaserJock> I'll get something like 10 Ubuntu and 2 Edubuntu CDs sometime in the future
[05:07] <Artemis3> hmm the tracker torrent page seems a bit weird...
[05:09] <LaserJock> wow, that's just ...
[05:09] <LaserJock> I wonder what the average age in there is
[05:09] <ScottK> tonyyarusso: The topic in #ubuntu-release-party needs updating as #ubuntu+1 redirects to #ubuntu now.
[05:10] <StevenK> Did everyone get kicked from #ubuntu+1 as well?
[05:10] <ajmitch> LaserJock: about 12, I think
[05:10] <StevenK> LaserJock, ajmitch: Less I daresay
[05:10] <imbrandon> wow that room gives me a headache
[05:10] <tonyyarusso> ScottK: k
[05:10] <LaserJock> I was gonna say IQ, but I that might not be so nice
[05:11] <LaserJock> *I think
[05:11] <imbrandon> LaserJock: talk like yoda day?
[05:11] <tonyyarusso> ScottK: btw, all Ubuntu members have ops in -r-p now
[05:11] <LaserJock> haha
[05:11] <LaserJock> tonyyarusso: does that mean I can kick people?!?!
[05:12] <ScottK> It's hard to tell from age.  At dinner on Monday night our 16 year old was asking questions to her mother (because she didn't know) and our 4 year old answered her (correctly).
[05:12] <tonyyarusso> LaserJock: yes.
[05:12] <tonyyarusso> LaserJock: s/kick/remove/ though
[05:12] <StevenK> ScottK: Blink
[05:12] <ScottK> tonyyarusso: I don't want my nick to be the one that set the topic in there.
[05:12] <ScottK> StevenK: Yes.  It was really funny when it happened.
[05:12] <ScottK> Our 4 year old often seems like she's 4 going on 24 anyway.
[05:13] <ScottK> That and been a teenager seems to be a cause of temporary brain damage.
[05:13] <tonyyarusso> ScottK: fair enough
[05:14] <minghua> ScottK: What was the question?
[05:14] <ScottK> I wish I remembered.
[05:14] <StevenK> ScottK: Most 4 years olds do.
[05:15] <imbrandon> ok time for some sleep, gnight all
[05:15] <ScottK> But it was definitely something I expected the 16 year old to know and the 4 year old not.
[05:15] <ScottK> imbrandon: Wimp (he's an hour west of me).
[05:15] <ajmitch> imbrandon: already?
[05:15] <StevenK> ScottK: And if you think 16 is bad, wait for 19
[05:16] <ScottK> StevenK: At least then she'll be away at college most of the time.
[05:16] <StevenK> ScottK: How does that help? :-)
[05:16] <ScottK> Actually for her 13 seems to have been (so far) the peak.
[05:16] <imbrandon> ajmitch: yea i'm just gonna take an 3 hour nap or something
[05:16] <ScottK> StevenK: I have to deal with it less frequently.
[05:17] <StevenK> ScottK: But surely then, the problems will be bigger?
[05:17] <ScottK> Of course her younger step-sister is 13 and just ramping up into her teenagerdom.
[05:17]  * StevenK has this feeling he isn't helping.
[05:18] <ScottK> StevenK: No doubt, but I'd rath have a few big problems to deal with than the steady drip, drip, drip, drip continuous pull of them.
[05:18] <ajmitch> you'd rather lurch from crisis to crisis?
[05:19] <ScottK> Absolutely.  It's the story of my life.
[05:19] <ajmitch> sounds liek software development
[05:19] <ajmitch> s/liek/like/
[05:31] <LaserJock> I think I should tell #ubuntu-release-party that ajmitch is a release manager
[05:32] <ajmitch> and then I can tell them that it's delayed until monday?
[05:32] <StevenK> ajmitch: No no, "No Gutsy for you. Come back one year."
[05:32] <LaserJock> haha
[05:32] <LaserJock> "sorry folks, we decided we'd just start on Hardy"
[05:33] <StevenK> Bwahaha
[05:33] <ajmitch> "we decided to push the release out by 6 weeks again"
[05:33] <StevenK> ... past UDS
[05:34] <Hobbsee> StevenK: i think we did that last release, actually.
[05:34] <StevenK> Hah
[05:34] <Hobbsee> Mithrandir: and i kept putting in wrong information - like that we werent going ot release it at all
[05:34] <ajmitch> "sorry, the release managers are currently hungover & aren't prepared to release today"
[05:35] <Hobbsee> hahahahaha
[05:35] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: put that in!
[05:36] <LaserJock> ajmitch: I've seen that one before, but for alphas
[05:38]  * Hobbsee muhahahaha
[05:39] <sladen> 6weeks ... that'd be enough time to change the wallpapers
[05:40] <Hobbsee> !hungover is <reply> The Release Managers are currently hungover, and wont be releasing gutsy today
[05:40] <Hobbsee> !hungover is <reply> The Release Managers are currently hungover, and wont be releasing gutsy today
[05:40] <ubotu> I'll remember that, Hobbsee
[05:41] <Hobbsee> good bot.
[05:41] <minghua> poor bot.
[05:41] <Burgundavia> heh
[05:41] <slangasek> sigh
[05:42] <Artemis3> that might explain the funny names in the torrent tracker page
[05:42] <slangasek> I'm insulted by the implication that I get hangovers
[05:42] <StevenK> Muahaha
[05:42]  * lamont has never seen slangasek with a hangover.  who says he gets them?
[05:42] <Hobbsee> wish the torrents were working though, they could do something useful, like seeding.
[05:43] <Burgundavia> http://www.wired.com/software/softwarereviews/news/2007/10/ubuntu_gutsy <-- wired jumps the line
[05:43] <pwnguin>  uh
[05:43] <pwnguin> that wsj guy reported on gutsy like over a month ago
[05:43] <sladen> lamont: the release process brings them on, even without any alcohol involved
[05:43]  * lamont notes that http://bld-4.mmjgroup.com/~wb/buildLogs/stats/gutsy2-short-nohppa.png is getting boring
[05:44] <minghua> That's what you get for having a hard schedule.  Have you ever seen anybody jumping the gun for a Debian release? ;-)
[05:44] <sladen> Ubuntu Muslim Edition (UbuntuME) has alread "released 7.04"
[05:44] <Burgundavia> minghua: they come so in frequently...
[05:45] <StevenK> And it's so funny watching them scream
[05:45] <minghua> Burgundavia: That's true, too.
[05:45] <Hobbsee> StevenK: o hyes :)
[05:46] <jcastro> sladen: dude you all set for uds? Don't come sick!
[05:46] <slangasek> minghua: ...yes
[05:47]  * lamont turns off creation of newer-more-boring gutsy graphs
[05:47] <sladen> jcastro: dude, that was *sooo* not me
[05:48] <StevenK> Last time it was lifeless
[05:48] <minghua> slangasek: You are not referring to the infamous Debian 1.0, are you?  (I just remembered that...)
[05:48] <jcastro> sladen: :)
[05:49] <slangasek> minghua: that's the most significant one, anyway
[05:50]  * StevenK waits for slangasek to join -release-party and tell everyone to be quiet for a few hours so he can get some work done.
[05:51] <minghua> Yeah, I know it's not a sound argument.  Just trying to say pre-mature reviews are hard to avoid with a fixed schedule.  Maybe I should have just said that.
[05:52] <pwnguin> http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB118963540721725614-FnJzx_wcNlkRFOef4cgq74PBW3g_20080912.html
[05:52] <pwnguin> that was published in september
[05:53] <pwnguin> and its basically still true =/
[05:53] <elmo> haha
[05:53] <StevenK> slangasek: You should release Lenny by accident. :-P
[05:53] <slangasek> bwaha
[05:54] <StevenK> slangasek: :-P
[06:00]  * lamont reboots into gutsy, hopefully
[06:17] <StevenK> "No, Gutsy isn't out. We add an hour every time some one says that, so we looking to release October 20."
[06:17] <StevenK> "2016"
[06:17] <LaserJock> oh man, I might try that
[06:18]  * StevenK grins at LaserJock 
[06:23] <minghua> Hmm, that sounds a lot of hours...
[06:26] <ajmitch> that sounds about right based on how often it's been asked
 im sure they arent just sitting there laughing at us cuz we are all waiting here
[06:35] <ScottK> Heh.  Have to laugh at that one.
[06:35] <StevenK> Muahaha
[06:35] <ajmitch> would we do that?
[06:35]  * StevenK smirks
[06:39] <minghua> ajmitch: Okay, so I was just being pedantic and did the calculation.  That roughly equals one asking per second for 24 hours.
[06:39] <minghua> ajmitch: So you are probably right.
[06:39] <ajmitch> haha
[06:41] <StevenK> minghua: Muahaha
[06:47] <dholbach> good morning
[06:47] <StevenK> Morning dholbach
[06:48] <dholbach> hi StevenK
[06:48] <StevenK> dholbach: I think it's your turn to stir people up in -release-party
[06:49] <dholbach> I was never under the impression that people who are willing to party need stirring up :)
[06:50] <LaserJock> hehe
[06:50] <LaserJock> I think I should introduce dholbach as a Canonical employee
[06:50] <LaserJock> that would probably work
[06:50] <StevenK> Then he'll get mobbed.
[06:51] <Hobbsee> just give him ops
[06:51] <Hobbsee> besides, we said there was no release today.
[06:51] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: does jabber.org hate the world again, or does my pidgin suck?
[06:55] <Tesla|Work> Hobbsee: my jabber.org acc doesnt works aswall
[06:55] <Tesla|Work> Hobbsee: they have ALOT of problems late... um... month
[06:55] <Hobbsee> Tesla|Work: s/month/years/
[06:55] <StevenK> Morning pitti
[06:55] <Hobbsee> but fair enough
[06:56] <Tesla|Work> hehe
[06:56] <pitti> Good morning
[06:56] <LaserJock> ahhh, now we're getting somewhere
[06:56] <evand> morning pitti!
[06:57] <tonyyarusso> Oh, hey pitti
[06:57]  * Hobbsee tries to figure out how to unignore joins in irssi.
[06:58] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: /unignore #channel JOINS, I think?
[06:59] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: ah, you rock.  i was using /ignore, thinking it toggled.
[06:59] <tonyyarusso> aah
[07:02] <tonyyarusso> well that was a short visit from pitti
[07:04] <Fujitsu> Hobbsee: Pidgin does suck, but I don't use jabber.org.
[07:05] <LaserJock> I do
[07:05] <LaserJock> they say it's supposed to be stable
[07:05] <Hobbsee_> right
[07:05] <LaserJock> but I always have problems with it
[07:05] <Fujitsu> `service unavailable' for you from my Jabber server, so I presume jabber.org is dead, yeah.
[07:05] <tonyyarusso> pitti: btw, did you catch my hilight from earlier?
[07:06] <Tesla|Work> disk problems on jabber.org afaik
[07:06]  * Tesla|Work is going to swithc to jabber.ru
[07:06] <Artemis3> as usual, jabber.org is not working, nothing unusual since its inception
[07:06] <pitti> tonyyarusso: no, I don't think I did, sorry; had some connection troubles
[07:07] <tonyyarusso> pitti: Okay.  I was wondering if you or anyone else from the release team would be willing to pop into #ubuntu-release-party do officially deliver the news when Gutsy is ready.  We could +m it and such, make it all official-like so people can recognize when it's finally for real after lots of false prophets.
[07:08] <LaserJock> good idea
[07:08] <pitti> tonyyarusso: oh, by all means; can you make is so that slangasek and me can change the topic there?
[07:08] <Artemis3> but fix the names in torrent.ubuntu.com:6969 first!
[07:08] <tonyyarusso> pitti: certainly.  You can also just swing by #ubuntu-ops if you need anything else.
[07:09] <pitti> tonyyarusso: great
[07:10] <jcastro> pitti's our man!
[07:10] <tonyyarusso> pitti: err, why doesn't slangasek have a cloak?
[07:10] <Tesla|Work> would you recommend to DL 7.10 form torrent instaed of mirrors? ;-)
[07:11] <Artemis3> they are to dense for that, tried in the last 3 releases already :P
[07:11] <StevenK> Maybe pitti and slangasek need canonical/cabal cloaks
[07:11] <pitti> tonyyarusso: he should ask for one, right
[07:11] <tonyyarusso> pitti: yeah
[07:11] <Hobbsee> pitti: the question is - does he become a member just by becomming a canonical employee?
[07:12] <pitti> Hobbsee: no, but tonyyarusso didn't mention that he needs to get an *ubuntu* cloak
[07:12] <LaserJock> I thought he did have a cloak
[07:12] <LaserJock> I swear I saw one the other day
[07:12] <Hobbsee> pitti: this is true.
[07:12] <pitti> /canonical/release_man_in_charge :)
[07:12] <LaserJock> it wasn't an Ubuntu one
[07:12] <LaserJock> hehe
[07:13]  * Fujitsu thinks we need the usual `no pony for you' photo, with a gibbon instead.
[07:13] <StevenK> Muahaha
[07:13] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: I just would prefer not to have things in access lists that are nick-linked, providing no guarantee of even being identified with services.
[07:13] <Hobbsee_> tonyyarusso, true.
[07:14] <Hobbsee_> tonyyarusso, oh, i thought they had to be identified to op at all
[07:14] <LaserJock> Fujitsu: totally!
[07:14] <LaserJock> "no Gibbon for you"
[07:14] <Fujitsu> Yeah.
[07:15] <LongPointyStick> tonyyarusso, no, does require a p/w
[07:15] <LongPointyStick> Password identification is required for [OP]
[07:15] <LongPointyStick> Type /msg NickServ IDENTIFY <password> and retry
[07:15] <tonyyarusso> LongPointyStick: oh yeah?  good.
[07:15] <LongPointyStick> yup
[07:15] <LongPointyStick> it'd be a bit stupid otherwise, y'know...
[07:15] <tonyyarusso> ya
[07:18] <LaserJock> phew
[07:18] <LaserJock> now I have a headache
[07:18] <Fujitsu> Heh.
[07:19] <tonyyarusso> pitti, slangasek: Might be useful to give the ops a quick heads-up before you do, perhaps.  Topic-changing and such around the Ubuntuniverse.
[07:19] <pitti> tonyyarusso: IOW, ask in #ubuntu-ops?
[07:19] <tonyyarusso> pitti: yeah
[07:20] <tonyyarusso> pitti: while we're at it, what are the odds I'll miss the fun if I go get about 6 hours of sleep right now?  :P
[07:20] <pitti> tonyyarusso: pretty high, I'd say
[07:21] <sladen> tonyyarusso: oy, stop trying to cheat the system.  You have perfect free will if you dare^Wwant to go to sleep
[07:21] <tonyyarusso> nuts.  why can't y'all tailor a release to my timezone some day!  ;)
[07:21] <tonyyarusso> sladen: Yeah, the last few I've ended up all-nighter-ing it anyway, and they've been at like 6 AM
[07:22] <sladen> tonyyarusso: that is one *hellva* long time to wait for a release
[07:22] <tonyyarusso> sladen: :)
[07:23] <LaserJock> pitti: so I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 3, could that number be the time until release? ;-)
[07:23] <tonyyarusso> LaserJock: In what units?
[07:23] <LaserJock> hrs, lets say
[07:23] <pitti> LaserJock: of course it *could* be :)
[07:23] <sladen> pittifully small ones
[07:23] <tonyyarusso> haha, good answer
[07:24] <LaserJock> hmm
[07:24] <pitti> sladen: why? 3 days should really be enough :-P
[07:24] <tonyyarusso> I told website-matt that he should make the counter say 2 days left just for like 10 minutes and see what happened in -release-party ;)
[07:25] <LaserJock> haha
[07:25] <sladen> it's like racing FedEx "Guaranteed 12:00 delivery by ... well, *sometime* in next week"
[07:25] <LaserJock> tonyyarusso: you should change the drunken release managers thing
[07:26] <tonyyarusso> LaserJock: to?
[07:26] <LaserJock> not sure, but now that pitti is up it doesn't seem right ;-)
[07:26] <tonyyarusso> oh, just so he knows what we're talking about:
[07:26] <ScottK> pitti: Care for a bit of archive admining for backports while we wait (dunno how busy you actually are ATM)?
[07:26] <tonyyarusso> !hungover | pitti (courtesy of Hobbsee)
[07:26] <ubotu> pitti (courtesy of Hobbsee): The Release Managers are currently hungover, and wont be releasing gutsy today.  No gutsy for you!  NOT YOURS!!!
[07:27] <LaserJock> oh man, my dissertation is never gonna get done
[07:27] <LaserJock> night folks
[07:28] <LaserJock> have fun
[07:28] <pitti> Hobbsee: :)
[07:28] <sladen> ScottK: best. line. ever.
[07:28] <pitti> ScottK: can do, yes; I'll have a look a bit later
[07:28] <ScottK> Bug #151308 for Feisty and Bug #153378 for Feisty and Edgy
[07:28] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 151308 in feisty-backports "please backport Clamav from Gutsy to Feisty " [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/151308
[07:29] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 153378 in feisty-backports "please backport pypolicyd-spf 0.4.1-1 from Gutsy to Feisty and Edgy" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153378
[07:29] <ScottK> pitti: ^^ thanks.
[07:29] <ScottK> pitti: And then two packages in Bug #153287 for dapper.
[07:29] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 153287 in dapper-backports "Please source backport pyspf 2.0.4-1/pypolicyd-spf 0.4.1-1 from Gutsy to Dapper" [Wishlist,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153287
[07:30] <Hobbsee> elmo: started the torrents yet?
[07:30] <pitti> ScottK: noted
[07:31] <Hobbsee> pitti: people have found the images
[07:32] <ScottK> Hobbsee: I don't think pitti saw that.
[07:32] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Remove then if they post links in #ubuntu or #ubuntu-release-party (and in case you didn't notice, he missed that due to disconnect)
[07:32] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: i cant.  i dont have admin rights over the forums these are on :)
[07:32] <Hobbsee> may as well tell them to seed though
[07:32] <Hobbsee> if the tracker is not being an utter pain (as usual) thiat is
[07:33] <Artemis3> ever heard the phrase: genie is out of the bottle?
[07:33] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: Forums?  Ah crud
[07:33] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: no, not those ones.
[07:33] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: clearly you werent at UDS, anyway
[07:33]  * Hobbsee hides from pricey
[07:33] <Artemis3> im tyring to drive people way from .pool .... and torrents do help
[07:33] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: no, I'm not nearly special enough for UDS.  Explain?
[07:35] <Hobbsee> pitti: are you aware that someone forgot to change /proc/version?
[07:35] <Artemis3> im betting the torrents will change since you messed the names of the .iso tho
[07:35] <Hobbsee> or is that the gcc prerelease?
[07:35] <pitti> Hobbsee: what do you want to have changed there?
[07:35] <pitti> Hobbsee: (and no, we *won't* update Gutsy to 2.6.23 :) )
[07:36] <Hobbsee> pitti: still says prerelease - but i'm assuming that's of gcc, not ubuntu
[07:36] <Hobbsee> hahaha, no.
[07:36] <pitti> right
[07:36] <StevenK> Hobbsee: The version in /proc/version is gcc
[07:36] <Hobbsee> but lets have a crack kernel, just for teh hell of it!
[07:36] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: ask pricey.  he'll tell you.  mention that it was about planet editorial policy
[07:37] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: oh boy :S
[07:39] <Burgundavia> oh bloody hell that spec
[07:39] <Hobbsee> haha :)
[07:39] <Burgundavia> I still haven't finished that
[07:39] <Burgundavia> really need to one of these days
[07:40] <Hobbsee> yes you do
[07:40] <Burgundavia> given we almost had another issue with the naked Spanish magazine cover
[07:40] <Burgundavia> ugh
[07:40] <Burgundavia> why can't life just be fun, with bunnies and ponies?
[07:41] <Fujitsu> Burgundavia: You mean with gibbons?
[07:41] <Burgundavia> no, bunnies and ponies
[07:41] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: naked Spanish magazine?  what?
[07:42] <tonyyarusso> @pony Burgundavia
[07:42] <Burgundavia> tonyyarusso: http://www.guardian.co.uk/spain/article/0,,2131498,00.html
[07:42] <Burgundavia> there was some concern about the cartoon nakedness
[07:42] <Burgundavia> ugh, I don't want to talk about it
[07:43] <Burgundavia> ponies and bunnies, dammit!
[07:43] <sladen> nekkid ponies and bunnies!
[07:43]  * tonyyarusso gives Burgundavia a bunny, but ubotu says no ponies
[07:43] <Hobbsee> slangasek: did you manage to find a good quote, btw?
[07:43] <jcastro> wait, Burgundavia, you were on some magazine cover naked?
[07:43] <Burgundavia> jcastro: yes, me, jorge
[07:43] <Burgundavia> it was hideous
[07:43] <jcastro> I knew it
[07:44] <slangasek> Hobbsee: I am looking at you blankly as if with no memory
[07:44] <Burgundavia> I miss you so much, so I had to declare my love for you publicly
[07:44] <tonyyarusso> Burgundavia: at least it wasn't mneptok
[07:44] <Burgundavia> and look, you came back to us
[07:44] <pwnguin> http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/300.html
[07:44] <Hobbsee> slangasek: but you must have a good quote for the final release!
[07:44] <pwnguin> you know, i gotta say, gutsy's doing pretty well
[07:44] <sladen> Burgundavia: you just can't get the models these days!  http://jriddell.org/photos/2007-05-sevilla-paul-jonathan-sarah.jpg
[07:44]  * Hobbsee thwacks slangasek 
[07:44]  * Hobbsee thwacks sladen 
[07:45] <tonyyarusso> rofl
[07:45] <Burgundavia> my eyes, please sladen
[07:45] <tonyyarusso> That should be the CD cover ;)
[07:45] <Burgundavia> pwnguin: fridge.ubuntu.com <-- 10 Rocking Features in 10 Days
[07:45] <Fujitsu> tonyyarusso: YES!
[07:45] <Burgundavia> there is your answer
[07:45] <pwnguin> heh
[07:45] <pwnguin> 10 vs 300 =(
[07:46] <Burgundavia> nobody cares about 300 random useless features
[07:46] <pwnguin> you mean like apparmor? :P
[07:46] <tonyyarusso> Fujitsu: At least then I'd finally know who the heck the people in the picture were, or at leas one of them.
[07:46] <Burgundavia> people care about their 1 (or 2) features
[07:46] <Burgundavia> pwnguin: if I ran a large enterprise app, apparmor or selinux would make me happy
[07:46] <slangasek> Hobbsee: I don't understand why, *everything* I say is clever and quotable
[07:46] <Hobbsee> slangasek: including openCubicle, yes.
[07:46] <Burgundavia> for that matter, apparmor + ltsp is a good win
[07:47] <pwnguin> Burgundavia: anyways
[07:47] <Burgundavia> although, pwnguin, if you want to some brownie points: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/7%2e10Tour#preview
[07:47] <Burgundavia> finish that in the next 2 hours
[07:47] <pwnguin> my point was, a lot of those 300 are already in 7.10
[07:47] <pwnguin> cups 1.3
[07:47] <pwnguin> virtual desktops
[07:48] <pwnguin> ie workspaces
[07:48] <sladen> Burgundavia: now you need a post that the "it goes up in 11"
[07:48] <jcastro> Burgundavia's features don't require you to buy a new computer.
[07:48] <Burgundavia> cause I don't break people
[07:48] <Burgundavia> 's computer with my hideous visage, having posed naked and all
[07:49] <Burgundavia> you are a cruel, cruel man, sladen
[07:49] <pwnguin> Burgundavia: sadly, i turned compiz and tracker off
[07:50] <ScottK> pwnguin: Why sadly?
[07:50] <pwnguin> and i dont think app armor got enabled on my laptop's upgrade
[07:50] <sladen> "sadly"
[07:50] <pwnguin> ScottK: its hard to take screenshots
[07:50] <ScottK> pwnguin: It almost certainly did.
[07:50] <pwnguin> everyone says that
[07:50] <ScottK> pwnguin: Well with Tracker enabled it'd take forever to take screenshots, so it's no great matter.
[07:51] <pwnguin> jldugger@jldugger-laptop:~$ dpkg -l | grep apparmor
[07:51] <pwnguin> jldugger@jldugger-laptop:~$
[07:53] <pwnguin> by my estimation, that indicates something apparmor related is not installed
[07:53] <ScottK> Agreed.  Why not install it then?
[07:53] <pwnguin> doesn't interest me much
[07:54] <ScottK> Ah.  Then no great loss.
[07:54] <pwnguin> im partly worried it'll be a nuisance
[07:55] <ScottK> You can always remove it.  It's been transparent for me.
[07:55] <pwnguin> to me, the bigger news story is the semi dissapearance of the laptop team =/
[07:55] <tonyyarusso> We lost a team?  Did we send a search party?
[07:55] <Burgundavia> in what sense?
[07:56] <pwnguin> in the sense that i havent seen any activity in my digging. granted im not qualified to call it dead
[07:56]  * ScottK having just mailed $REPORT to $CUSTOMER is going to bed.  Good night all.
[07:56] <sladen> tonyyarusso: the search party is in #ubuntu-release-party though I don't think they've found anything yet
[07:56] <Fujitsu> Night ScottK.
[07:56] <tonyyarusso> sladen: Nor do I think they're looking.........  I've trained for searches before, and that crowd isn't anywhere near organized enough
[07:57] <pwnguin> the only thread on laptop devel ML since June was the one i started on power consumption
[07:58]  * Fujitsu waits for one of the RMs to head into #-release-party and ask when the release is.
[07:58] <pwnguin> and even the only message in june was someone quitting the team
[07:58] <StevenK> Fujitsu: Now that would be cool.
[07:59] <Burgundavia> pwnguin: laptop-devel was an attempt to create a cross-distro place to talk about laptop issues
[07:59] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: heh, why?
[07:59] <StevenK> Hobbsee: I suspect because everyone is asking
[07:59] <minghua> Just out of curiosity -- What are we waiting for now?  Building ISOs?
[07:59] <Fujitsu> minghua: Mirrors, I believe.
[07:59] <Hobbsee> minghua: website to wake up, i think
[08:00] <Hobbsee> minghua: and the pushing of the Big Red Button
[08:00] <minghua> Oh, so we pre-sync to mirrors before announcing?
[08:00] <Artemis3> as usual
[08:00] <minghua> I was just told otherwise yesterday.
[08:00] <Fujitsu> minghua: Yeah, or everything blows up.
[08:00] <Artemis3> also, as usual (being told otherwise)
[08:00] <tonyyarusso> Hobbsee: speaking of which, I had a friend ask if there was actually a Big Red Button, who would be very please if you would say someone slapped together a little GTK interface with such a thing
[08:01] <minghua> But I was told by a mirror admin, so I believed him, assuming he knows what he is talking about.
[08:01] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: haha
[08:01] <Fujitsu> minghua: Hm, that is odd.
[08:01] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: yeah, but it might be done as a command line, depending.
[08:01] <Mithrandir> tonyyarusso: then we'd of course have to have a Qt app for releasing kubuntu.
[08:01] <tonyyarusso> Mithrandir: of course
[08:01] <Hobbsee> minghua: we tend to, if we can, afaik, yes
[08:02] <pwnguin> Burgundavia: so then its not a list for the ubuntu laptop team?
[08:02] <minghua> I see, thanks everyone for explaining.
[08:02] <Fujitsu> Mithrandir: Haha.
[08:03] <torkel> tonyyarusso: http://www.85qm.de/up/BigRedButton.swf
[08:03] <tonyyarusso> hehe
[08:04] <pwnguin> Burgundavia: it may be that the kernel team has sort of absorbed the bulk of the effort
[08:04] <cjwatson> LaserJock: FWIW I'd advise against writing "Copyright (C) Canonical Ltd." in things you write unless you have a contract with Canonical that lays out what we can do with your work
[08:05] <cjwatson> LaserJock: I don't know the exact legal situation, but I've certainly heard others recommend against using another organisation's name in a copyright message unless you have a signed legally-approved assignment in place
[08:06] <Fujitsu> Ooh, somebody told Mithrandir off. Brave.
[08:06] <Hobbsee> Fujitsu: are they still alive?
[08:07] <tonyyarusso> .........
[08:08] <tonyyarusso> gutsy-changes claims a new version of opera was just uploaded
[08:08] <Fujitsu> tonyyarusso: It probably was.
[08:08] <Fujitsu> partner is special.
[08:08] <tonyyarusso> Fujitsu: That's allowed?
[08:08] <tonyyarusso> oh
[08:08] <ScottK> And then there's bug #153798 too.
[08:08] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 153798 in launchpad "canonical partner repo packages showing as "in ubuntu"" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153798
[08:09]  * ScottK quits hawking $HISPETBUG and really goes to bed.
[08:09] <cjwatson> should be on soyuz
[08:10]  * cjwatson moves it
[08:10] <StevenK> Morning cjwatson
[08:10] <cjwatson> morning
[08:11] <minghua> That red button flash has a long story to tell...
[08:20] <tonyyarusso> minghua: yeah...
[08:20]  * tonyyarusso got through the whole thing
[08:21] <AnAnt> Hello, if I use reportbug will it report to Ubuntu or Debian ?
[08:22] <Burgundavia> it will go the ubuntu-users mailing list
[08:27] <AnAnt> Burgundavia: won't reportbug send to LP too ?
[08:27] <Burgundavia> I don't think so
[08:27]  * Hobbsee heads out to the sydney release party.  have fun everyone!
[08:29]  * StevenK does too
[08:30] <AnAnt> when's the release ?
[08:30] <Burgundavia> when the release happens
[08:30] <AnAnt> there are serious bugs in the kernel
[08:31] <Burgundavia> file them
[08:31] <AnAnt> no one even responded to a bug that makes my laptop crash, although I submitted it weeks ago
[08:31] <AnAnt> I did file it
[08:31] <Burgundavia> we get a lot of bugs
[08:31] <ScottK> AnAnt: What bug?
[08:32] <AnAnt> bug #146151
[08:32] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 146151 in linux-source-2.6.22 "Random hangup on HP Pavilion dv6391 when system beep" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/146151
[08:32] <minghua> AnAnt: If it only affects you, then probably it's not serious (in a general sense).
[08:33] <AnAnt> minghua: well, no one decided that it's a duplicate of any bug, nor did anyone say, I have the same problem too
[08:34] <minghua> AnAnt: I am not saying there isn't a bug, I'm just saying it's not as serious as you say.
[08:35] <AnAnt> minghua: ah, I see
[08:37] <ScottK> AnAnt: Does this happen when you are using noapic irqpoll noirqdebug as you mentioned in Bug #103273?
[08:37] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 103273 in linux-source-2.6.22 "booting HP Pavilion tx1020 laptop requires noapic kernel option" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/103273
[08:37] <AnAnt> ScottK: I don't think so, because in that case beep doesn't even work
[08:38] <AnAnt> ScottK: btw, I think that 103273 was for AMD64 not i386
[08:38] <AnAnt> ScottK: also I can't use those options as my nvidia won't work IIRC
[08:40] <ScottK> OK.  It sounds to me like you haven't made a clear, complete discussion of what your problem is in the bug then.  In #103273 you said you needed to use noapic irqpoll noirqdebug and now you say your video doesn't work if you do that.
[08:41] <AnAnt> ScottK: on 103273, I was on amd64, there isn't a restricted nvidia driver there (at least restricted manager doesn't say so)
[08:41] <ScottK> OK, so it's two different laptops?
[08:41] <AnAnt> ScottK: on 146151, it was on using i386 ubuntu
[08:41] <ScottK> OK.
[08:41] <AnAnt> ScottK: same laptop, using different ubuntu versions
[08:42] <AnAnt> ScottK: I gave up on amd64 version because I wasn't able to run 32-apps on it
[08:42] <ScottK> I see.  OK.
[08:42] <AnAnt> ScottK: :s/32-apps/32-bit apps
[08:44] <AnAnt> anyone knows about console fonts ?
[08:45] <minghua> I know a *tiny* bit.
[08:45]  * ScottK really goes to bed.  AnAnt I don't know what to tell you.  I file bugs that don't get a lot of response sometimes too.
[08:46] <AnAnt> ScottK: ok
[08:46] <minghua> Night ScottK.  (Though I think this is the third time you are going bed tonight :-)
[08:46] <AnAnt> minghua: ok, I have a program called acon (it's on Ubuntu btw), the upstream has coded a console font in the C code
[08:47] <ScottK> Third, maybe 4th.
[08:47] <AnAnt> minghua: is there a way to convert that C code font into PSF ?!
[08:47] <minghua> Hmm.
[08:47] <minghua> AnAnt: There should be a way.  Whether it's easy or not, I don't know.
[08:47] <minghua> After all, console fonts are just 1-bit bitmap fonts.
[08:48] <cjwatson> AnAnt: there's a bdf2psf package
[08:48] <cjwatson> oh, I misread you
[08:49] <cjwatson> good grief, what a crazy way to do it
[08:49] <AnAnt> cjwatson: well, that program was coded in 1999 or maybe even before
[08:49] <minghua> cjwatson: More crazy than embedding XPM in C code?
[08:51] <cjwatson> you could just load it and use consolechars' facility to save the old console font to a file :-)
[08:51] <cjwatson> conversion via video memory ...
[08:51] <cjwatson> the -F option
[08:54] <AnAnt> cjwatson: I tried to do that using kbd-compat, it failed, saying that it was made to convert 256 characters, while the loaded font uses 512 characters
[08:54] <AnAnt> cjwatson: you think consolechars will work ?
[08:54] <cjwatson> you might need to use kbd rather than kbd-compat
[08:54] <cjwatson> but you can try consolechars
[08:55] <cjwatson> I don't have time to follow all the codepaths through right now to check
[08:56] <carlos> pitti: Before I forget, next Launchpad code update includes the patch that will allow automatic translation imports from restricted component
[08:57] <pitti> carlos: ah, so far you imported them manually?
[08:57] <carlos> pitti: well, as far as I know, only restricted-hardware was there and you provide me with its updates, do you remember it?
[08:58] <pitti> carlos: right
[08:58] <carlos> pitti: s/restricted-hardware/restricted-manager/
[08:58] <pitti> (restricted-drivers)
[08:58] <pitti> erm, -manager
[08:58] <carlos> :-P
[08:58] <sabdfl> HAPPY RELEASE DAY everybody :-)
[08:58] <tonyyarusso> sabdfl: right back at you :)
[08:58] <sabdfl> and what a glorious day it is in London, too
[08:58] <pitti> sabdfl: and to you!
[08:59] <tonyyarusso> Figures, glorious in London and rainy and foggy all week in Minneapolis
[09:00] <sladen> tonyyarusso: same answer we keep giving to Hobbsee... "move to Europe" and all your problems will be sorted :)
[09:00] <tonyyarusso> sladen: I believe me, I'd like to.  Not London though - one of the Nordic countries.
[09:00] <lukketto> sabdfl: and to you ;)
[09:01] <sladen> tonyyarusso: you're in luck, I can report that Helsinki is beautiful and sunny today aswell
[09:02] <Burgundavia> well, I need to sleep
[09:02] <tonyyarusso> sladen: can you get me immigration papers?
[09:02] <Burgundavia> have fun with the release all
[09:04] <pwnguin> huh
[09:04] <pwnguin> what replaced pmount?
[09:04] <cjwatson> gnome-mount
[09:04] <cjwatson> and the hal stack
[09:04] <sladen> pwnguin: hal + gnome-mount
[09:04] <pwnguin> some time ago i gather
[09:05] <pitti> pwnguin: in feisty
[09:05] <pwnguin> i just noticed it on the list to be removed list
[09:05] <pwnguin> as unsupported by canonical
[09:05]  * pitti does a quiet sob
[09:06] <liw> poor pitti
[09:06] <pwnguin> it was good stuff
[09:06] <pwnguin> but such is the mark of progress  -- creative destruction
[09:06] <liw> I liked pmount when I first saw it, and I still prefer it's command line interface over that of gnome-mount
[09:06] <pitti> pwnguin: I found someone in Debian who continues to maintain it
[09:06] <pwnguin> heh
[09:07] <pwnguin> well, as long as theres a replacement, i dont mind
[09:07] <pwnguin> my usage has basically been plugging in usb thumb drives
[09:07] <pwnguin> the end
[09:07] <pwnguin> maybe cds
[09:08] <Mithrandir> gnome-mount doesn't have a command line mode, does it?
[09:08] <pitti> Mithrandir: it does
[09:08] <pitti> Mithrandir: e. g. gnome-mount -d /dev/sda1
[09:08] <pwnguin> Mithrandir: maybe if you use the right dbus command ;)
[09:08] <Mithrandir> oh, nice.
[09:08] <pitti> or gnome-{eject,umount}
[09:08] <pitti> Mithrandir: useful for debugging, too, if you invoke it as gnome-mount -vbd /dev/sda1
[09:09] <liw> when pmount went away, I had to learn about gnome-mount's cli, so as to fix my script to ssh-add a key from a usb stick
[09:10]  * Mithrandir hugs his gpg card with ssh keys on it.
[09:10] <davmor2> Mithrandir: :P
[09:10] <davmor2> git
[09:10] <Mithrandir> ?
[09:11] <Mithrandir> it's quite useful
[09:11] <sladen> davmor2: ssssh.  "bzr" around here   *nods*
[09:12] <davmor2> sladen: why? Sssssssshhhhh
[09:13] <liw> I don't have smart card reader, the usb stick is good enough for me
[09:14] <davmor2> liw: I just used lvm encrypted about a 100 time yesterday :)
[09:15]  * pwnguin just wishes his SD reader on his laptop worked. it worked for like one release
[09:17]  * davmor2 lends pwnguin my sledgehammer give it a tap it'll work :)
[09:17] <pitti> ScottK: all done; I also cleaned all the NEW stuff in backports while I was at it
[09:21] <LaserJock> cjwatson: ok, thanks for the advice. I was uncertain about it but was "going with the flow"
[09:23] <cjwatson> the flow of stuff done by Canonical employees, I'm guessing :)
[09:23] <LaserJock> yes
[09:23] <LaserJock> when I started working in Main
[10:14] <Riddell> quiet here this morning :)
[10:14] <ogra> yeah :)
[10:16] <LaserJock> Riddell: #ubuntu-release-party has got a lot more action if you're bored :-)
[10:16] <tonyyarusso> Riddell: It helps balance out urp
[10:17] <davmor2> Riddell: I can kick your shins again if you want :)
[10:17]  * tonyyarusso wonders why they don't turn off indexing in apache for release times - it would save us a lot of headaches on IRC
[10:20] <davmor2> Riddell: if you really want to see fun release and watch the frenzy :D
[10:22] <davmor2> Riddell: By the way thanks for the mention :)
[10:24] <Riddell> davmor2: there really is fame and glory for our developers!
[10:24] <davmor2> :D
[10:34] <tonyyarusso> cjwatson: Is there a particular reason apache indexing is allowed to create all this confusion right now?  Does rsync require it?
[10:35] <cjwatson> tonyyarusso: I doubt it would make any difference; the HTML headers have to go out too
[10:35] <cjwatson> and they link to all the files
[10:35] <cjwatson> the confusion is really just entertaining noise, I don't view it as significant in the grand scheme of things
[10:36] <tonyyarusso> cjwatson: Really?  Well, if you don't mind I guess I can't complain as much, but personally it would be nice if they just got 403 errors instead of a list of disk images :)
[10:37] <cjwatson> tonyyarusso: we'd then have to do *another* mirror sync pass to turn indexing back on
[10:37] <cjwatson> which we'd have to wait for
[10:37] <tonyyarusso> cjwatson: Ah, bummer.  nvm then
[10:37]  * tonyyarusso doesn't really understand the infrastructure stuff
[10:38] <cjwatson> it's just one of those things with a mirrored distribution network, you get a period when it's "leaked" in some sense
[10:38] <LaserJock> cjwatson: how long does it take to get an .iso out to all the mirrors, roughly?
[10:38] <cjwatson> LaserJock: the actual ISOs went out overnight
[10:39] <cjwatson> LaserJock: but, well, "it depends" - there are a lot of mirrors on wildly varying links. We pre-publish well in advance to allow many hours for it
[10:40] <cjwatson> the way that the pre-publication process works, we can still make small changes to the ISOs and subsequent "re-pre-publication" will be quicker by the magic of rsync
[10:40] <LaserJock> ah, right
[10:41] <LaserJock> so then what determines when the "official" release happens? website stuff or Mark giving a "green light"
[10:41] <LaserJock> or waking up to find that everything's ready?
[10:43] <pwnguin> its not an official release until the first upload to fix whatever is horribly broken
[10:44] <minghua> LaserJock: I suppose it's safe to say it's released when a mail is sent to -announce.
[10:45] <LaserJock> sure
[10:45] <LaserJock> but I'm wondering how it's determined that it's time to send the email
[10:45] <davmor2> pwnguin: that'll be the xorg-intel driver then :)
[10:45] <LaserJock> or maybe what's the biggest bottleneck
[10:46] <pwnguin> the slowest official mirror, id wager
[10:52] <cjwatson> LaserJock: ReleaseProcess
[10:52] <Kano> hi, is today the release of gutsy or will it be delayed?
[10:53] <LaserJock> cjwatson: oh, how handy ;-)
[10:53] <dholbach> Kano: ubuntu.com does not look like that
[10:54] <tonyyarusso> Kano: Announcement the moment of will take place in #ubuntu-release-party.  At this time all systems look to be go for soon today.
[10:54] <Kano> well basically i only want to know if the kernel will change before release or not
[10:55] <dholbach> Kano: no very likely not, maybe through -updates though
[10:55] <cjwatson> Kano: the kernel will not change
[10:56] <Kano> ok, then i will use current u kernel as base
[10:56] <Kano> i dont like to use it and next day there is another one online..
[10:59] <pwnguin> base for what?
[10:59] <Kano> kanotix kernel, i need just a different config
[11:01] <amitk> Kano: do you follow the kernel git tree or the source package?
[11:01] <Kano> as all patches which i reported are in it - expect one special one for lum
[11:02] <Kano> for releases i usually prefer to use source packages
[11:02] <Kano> in case of problems i test git
[11:03] <Huff> will the derivatives be released simultaneously with Ubuntu gutsy?
[11:03] <cjwatson> Huff: yes
[11:03] <Kano> hmm final release seems to be online. ok then i can use the kernel ;)
[11:03] <Huff> sorry wrong channel don't mean to bother
[11:04] <Kano> ab it sad that the ati xserver is broken for my x700se
[11:05] <Kano> but i use that card basically for fglrx testing anyway
[11:05] <tormod> kano, you can use the 6.6 driver linked in the release notes.
[11:05] <Kano> 6.6?
[11:06] <tormod> the -ati driver 6.6.something
[11:06] <Kano> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-ati/+bug/151974
[11:06] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 151974 in xserver-xorg-video-ati "[RV410] X700SE [1002:5e4f] - DRI images corrupted" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[11:07] <Kano> thats what i mean
[11:07] <tormod> Kano: I know
[11:08] <Kano> i think ati cards dont like intel chipsets
[11:08] <Kano> thats the 2nd card that does not init after ati driver was used with fglrx
[11:08] <Kano> mainly i test fglrx...
[11:09] <Kano> currently fglrx is so borken that restarting the xserver stops the system
[11:09] <Kano> really fun to write fglrx install scripts
[11:11] <Kano> with my older nforce3 system that did not happen, just with that pci-e one...
[11:11] <tormod> Kano: "ati driver was used with fglrx" ?
[11:11] <Kano> tormod: well when you install fglrx without reboot
[11:11] <Kano> when the card was first used by ati
[11:12] <Kano> usually you unload radeon + drm module and all is fine
[11:12] <tormod> Kano: I see. Like when testing with a live CD.
[11:12] <Kano> i did not install ubuntu
[11:12] <Kano> i only use parts of it
[11:13] <Kano> maybe i do and compile some things i need
[11:13] <Kano> i compiled full kde 3.5.8 lately for etch, that was real fun ;)
[11:15] <Kano> at least i can stip this step for gutsy
[11:16] <Kano> for your next system i would highly advice to update ffmpeg
[11:16] <Kano> thats the biggest drawback compared to other systems
[11:16] <Kano> for h264 you need latest code
[11:24] <sladen> Kano: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ffmpeg/+filebug  and justify what updates are required, and why, if they are needed
[11:26] <minghua> I doubt filing bugs against ffmpeg and ask for update really helps...
[11:27] <RAOF> Pity they don't have a bugtracker - then you could file a bug upstream asking for some kind of release this decade :).
[11:28] <Kano> since one week PAFF decoding should work, that was missing for ages...
[11:28] <Kano> http://ffmpeg.mplayerhq.hu/
[11:29] <sladen> minghua: it's hopefully slightly more effective than letting the request scroll off the top of the screen on IRC
[11:29] <Kano> also h264 should now work multithreaded, for hd res thats a requirement
[11:30] <minghua> sladen: True.  But I doubt the difference matter.  My feeling is just nobody dare to touch ffmpeg.
[11:31] <Kano> i dislike using coreavc for that...
[11:31] <Kano> even if there are patches to use it
[11:38] <Kano> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ffmpeg/+bug/153858
[11:38] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 153858 in ffmpeg "update to current svn for better h264 support" [Undecided,New]
[11:42] <ln-> does anyone read and/or care about kernel-related bug reports?
[11:42] <ln-> this one, in particular: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.15/+bug/65631
[11:42] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 65631 in linux-source-2.6.15 "skge driver broken: invalid call to spin_unlock causes system crash" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[11:48] <Kano> do you really still use 2.6.15?
[11:48] <Kano> with that i would just blacklist skge and compile new sk98lin
[11:48] <ln-> that's the one that comes from apt for Dapper.
[11:49] <minghua> ln-: Have you tried a later version?
[11:49] <minghua> like, feisty or gutsy?
[11:50] <Kano> i am using skge all the time with newer kernels...
[11:50] <ln-> minghua: no, but i have tried the patch attached to that bug report, and it does fix the problem.
[11:51] <ln-> but the thing is, we've got four or five similar computer here at the office, and after each kernel update from apt I have to replace the skge driver on all of them again.
[11:51] <Kano> well when you have got lts you maybe better fix it ;)
[11:52] <minghua> ln-: I suggest you ask in #ubuntu-kernel and see if it's possible to have an update for dapper.
[11:53] <Keybuk> the glibc "double free detected" panic has to be the most useless thing in existance
[11:53] <Keybuk> why can't it just abort() so I can catch it in gdb and see *what* I'm double-freeing
[11:53] <ln-> the silly thing is, there have been about four updates to dapper kernel after that bug was reported, so there would have been chances to fix it in one of them... but ok, i'll try #ubuntu-kernel.
[11:59] <cjwatson> Keybuk: MALLOC_CHECK_=2
[12:00] <Keybuk> cjwatson: that does the abort() somewhere inside libc with no useful stack trace
[12:00] <Keybuk> ie. you can't see which free() it was
[12:01] <sladen> if you do MALLOC_CHECK_=3, does it warn you about triple-free()s  ;-)
[12:02] <minghua> sladen: I'm actually more interested in what MALLOC_CHECK=1 do...
[12:03] <cjwatson> malloc(3)
[12:03] <minghua> cjwatson: Thanks.
[12:05] <Fujitsu> Oh dear, who stuffed the website?
[12:06] <Fujitsu> It's coming soon *and* released on the same page.
[12:06] <ajmitch> heh
[12:07] <minghua> I don't see anything mentioning released.
[12:07] <Fujitsu> Ah, reverted.
[12:07] <Fujitsu> Like last time, IIRC.
[12:08] <Kopfgeldjaeger> hi
[12:32] <ScottK> pitti: Thanks for taking care of the backports.
[12:32] <pitti> ScottK: yw
[12:36] <persia> Shouldn't that be "...even with Hoary...", or does that wait for archive open?
[12:36] <Fujitsu> persia: Hardy, you mean?
[12:37] <persia> Umm.  Yes.  The other H* release
[12:38] <cjwatson> persia: doesn't make much difference until the archive opens :)
[12:38] <persia> cjwatson: Right.  Makes sense.  Thanks.
[12:38] <cjwatson> (which will be a little while)
[12:47] <akrill> curiosity: when is the vote on 8.10's name? ;-)
[12:47] <cjwatson> it's not a vote
[12:48] <cjwatson> Mark picks it
[12:49] <akrill> ah, i see
[12:49] <stdin> you mean Hardy ?
[12:49] <akrill> no, Hardy = 8.04.
[12:49] <akrill> i'm talking the one after than, 8.10 ;-)
[12:49] <akrill> *that
[12:49] <stdin> oh yeah, my mind is like jelly at the moment :p
[12:50] <akrill> i'm thinking Itchy Iguana. :-p
[12:50] <akrill> anyway. im off to bed. night all
[13:01] <pochu> congrats for this great release! you guys ROCK!
[13:07] <tonyyarusso> I'm going for Intrepid Impala myself.  /me hopes the powers that be are listening ;)
[13:11] <pitti> mvo: do you have a feisty at hand? does update-manager find the release notes? there are some complaints in #urp
[13:12] <mvo> pitti: I checked it and it worked after I flipped the swtich, I can retry, sec
[13:12] <pitti> mvo: ok, thanks; let's blame the server banging then, if it generally works
[13:12] <tormod> the formatting of commands got lost in http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/710
[13:13] <mvo> pitti: works for me, I tried with and without local proxy
[13:13] <mvo> pitti: downloading the upgrader is a bit on the slow side :)
[13:13] <mvo> pitti: but it finished successfully
[13:14] <stgraber> uploading at 60MB/s on bittorrent :)
[13:14]  * pitti hugs mvo, thanks
[13:15] <mvo> stgraber: impressive :)
[13:15] <stgraber> 6x100Mb/s :)
[13:15] <stgraber> I'll just have to look a bit at our quotas (7TB/month)
[13:15] <stgraber> at this speed the quota will be used in less than a day
[13:16] <Fujitsu> Ouch.
[13:16] <cjwatson> tormod: reported, thanks
[13:16]  * persia requests a mention of 7.10 at the bottom of http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/downloadmirrors
[13:17] <cjwatson> persia: reported, thanks
[13:17] <persia> cjwatson: Thanks.
[13:22] <cjwatson> persia: 13:21 <@newz2000> its updated, give it a few min to clear the cache
[13:22]  * persia celebrates
[13:25] <Pici> Congrats everyone :)
[13:40] <Whoopie> To all of you: WELL DONE!
[13:58] <Mithrandir> doko: do I need to do anything more than install icedtea-plugin to get java plugin on amd64?
[13:59] <doko> Mithrandir: you need to rebuild it yourself, or install it from ...
[14:00] <doko> #deb http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/ubuntu gutsy/
[14:00] <doko> #deb-src http://people.ubuntu.com/~doko/ubuntu gutsy/
[14:00] <Mithrandir> doko: why's that?
[14:00] <doko> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/icedtea-java7/+bug/152362
[14:00] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 152362 in icedtea-java7 "icedtea-java7-plugin always crashes firefox" [High,Confirmed]
[14:00] <doko> help appreciated ...
[14:01] <Mithrandir> it doesn't crash for me, it just fails to start
[14:01] <doko> start firefox from a console, and you'll see that it crashes
[14:01] <doko> firefox itself doesn't crash
[14:01] <Mithrandir> ahkay
[14:02] <Mithrandir> that page seems to have older .debs than what's in gutsy?
[14:02] <kagou> Congratulations ! Bravo !
[14:03] <doko> Mithrandir: ahh, yes, but they work =) I'll update to b22 soonish, but that doesn't fix things yet
[14:04] <Mithrandir> doko: heh, ok. :-)
[14:12] <warsocket> hi ppl i have short a question about launchpad and registerig a blueprint, is the the right channel fo this (have a blueprint for installation of 3rd party non repo apps)
[14:13] <soren> warsocket: Depends... If it's about using launchpad correctly, #launchpad might be more suitable. If it's about the details of the contents of your ubuntu blueprint, this might be the right channel.
[14:14] <warsocket> k I have an idea oh how to install appliocations wich are not in the ubunu repo
[14:15] <warsocket> and i could work on nummerous of those apps wich ahvent even heared of my project
[14:15] <warsocket> but
[14:15] <warsocket> if i register my blueprint fo the whole idea at launchpad
[14:15] <warsocket> Am I then obligated to program the whiole project myself
[14:16] <warsocket> or is it possible that someone else programs my blueprint
[14:16] <warsocket> ?
[14:16] <warsocket> and if I acan program a part of it, will I get help or should i finf my own team?
[14:17] <BenC> pitti: linux-source-2.6.15 29.61 uploaded to dapper-proposed
[14:17] <BenC> pitti: that's everything from my end
[14:18] <pitti> BenC: how, -proposed? I thought -updates due to the ABI skew?
[14:18] <BenC> pitti: doh
[14:18] <pitti> BenC: there weren't any fixes in initramfs after all?
[14:18] <BenC> can I upload directly to -updates?
[14:19] <pitti> BenC: yes, you can; we just don't do it normally
[14:19] <BenC> pitti: I uploaded initramfs-tools, udev and linux-meta last night
[14:19] <pitti> ah, I see
[14:19] <pitti> BenC: -meta?
[14:19] <BenC> pitti: needed linux-backports-modules-* meta packages
[14:19] <pitti> ah, of course
[14:23] <cjwatson> warsocket: if you aren't likely to contribute a good chunk of it yourself, it would be better to look around for existing projects first and try to join up with one of them rather than starting your own effort
[14:24] <cjwatson> warsocket: it's relatively rare for people to pick up other people's blueprints, because the people likely to develop large chunks of them already have lots on their own lists :-)
[14:24] <BenC> pitti: re-uploaded to -proposed
[14:24] <pitti> BenC: -updates, I assume :)
[14:24] <BenC> shit, yeah, -updates :)
[14:24] <pitti> BenC: thanks a lot
[14:26] <Mithrandir> doko: at least 7~b21-1.4+20071007-0ubuntu1 is still broken.  Do you remember which one works?
[14:27] <sladen> warsocket: the secret is to document your idea, and then pursuade other people that it's such a good idea that they will help you  (but probably not by spamming people with alot on their plates already
[14:27] <mhb> pitti: by the way, not sure if you've heard, but I won't be at the uds, usa denied me a visa.
[14:28] <pitti> mhb: hi; yes, I heard about it yesterday; how unfortunate :(
[14:28] <pitti> mhb: I had looked forward to meeting you
[14:28] <mhb> pitti: yes, well... you can imagine I did, too.
[14:28] <pitti> mhb: weird that you even need one, as an EU citizen
[14:29] <mhb> pitti: yes, they treat Czech Republic inequally.
[14:30] <mhb> pitti: also, they kind of ignored that I have an invitation letter.
[14:30] <mathiaz> pitti: well - it doesn't really matter that you're a EU citizen when you deal with the US.
[14:31] <mathiaz> pitti: you actually don't have a EU passport (but a german, french, etc...)
[14:31] <mhb> pitti: I'll help you with restricted-manager rewrite regardless.
[14:31] <pitti> mathiaz: right; I just had assumed that the visa waiver program applied to all EU
[14:31] <pitti> mhb: that would be great; I still sub'ed you to the spec, I hope we can discuss it over phone or IRC
[14:31] <mathiaz> pitti: nope - it's on a per country basis.
[14:34] <doko> Mithrandir: did you install -jre, -bin, and -plugin?
[14:35] <Mithrandir> doko: yes.
[14:35] <mhb> pitti: I saw that, thanks. I'll go read it.
[14:36] <pitti> mhb: there's nothing on the wiki page yet
[14:36] <pitti> just the skeleton
[14:38] <Mithrandir> doko: it seems like it never starts anything, it shows the "click here to download plugin" replacement element
[14:39] <doko> Mithrandir: are alternatives set correctly? see about:plugins ?
[14:40] <soren> warsocket: You don't have to do all of it yourself, but the more you can do, the more likely it is to get done.
[14:41] <soren> warsocket: You can start out be writing the specification in as much detail as you can to make it as easy as possible for other people to understand your idea and possibly help.
[14:41] <Mithrandir> doko: ah, the alternatives were set wrongly.  Now I get a grey, dead bokx
[14:42] <doko> Mithrandir: no output in the terminal, if you start firefox from there?
[14:44] <Mithrandir> load: class no.sb1.detectorapplet.Detector not found.
[14:44] <Mithrandir> ah
[14:44] <Mithrandir> Caused by: java.security.NoSuchAlgorithmException: CertBundle KeyStore not available
[14:49] <doko> Mithrandir: can you open classpath.org and see the stomping fork in the upper left corner?
[14:51] <Mithrandir> doko: yes, that works.
[14:51] <Mithrandir> doko: I would guess it's that it's trying to load a class over HTTPS and failing to find the CA certificate store
[14:52] <doko> Mithrandir: yes, maybe some properties need to be adjusted, patches welcome =)
[14:53] <pitti> BenC: tons of changes in tg3; has this new driver been tested on a production dapper already? if not, maybe we should test it in a PPA first?
[14:56] <BenC> pitti: it's been tested from -proposed for quite some time
[14:57] <pitti> BenC: ah, you took it from there? alright, that's pretty much what we wanted I guess :)
[14:58] <soren> Gah, I'm tired of gutsy. When does hardy open?
[14:58] <pitti> soren: using a stable release is sooo boring
[14:59] <doko> even hardy is stable now =)
[15:00] <zul> gutsy is so passe
[15:00] <cjwatson> soren: NewReleaseCycleProcess says release+1day
[15:00] <soren> pitti: Yeah, I can smell it rotting already. Let's get a move on, people.
[15:00] <cjwatson> although, for the eagle-eyed, hardy seeds already exist ;-)
[15:01] <soren> cjwatson: Uh, shiny!
[15:01] <soren> Er, I mean: Uh, hardy!
[15:01] <cjwatson> (it was something I could trivially do without disturbing anything else)
[15:02] <pitti> and now for something entirely different: dapper.2!
[15:02]  * soren hides again
[15:02] <BenC> dapper.2 is for the truely hard core
[15:02] <lamont> "s" so needs to be "shiny spaceship"
[15:03] <lamont> "shiny serenity" fits even better.
[15:03] <Treenaks> lamont: and after 'z', rollover to 'angsty astronaut'
[15:03] <soren> Spaceships are good. We need it right after the ravenous rapor release.
[15:03] <soren> raptor, of course.
[15:04]  * lamont is saddened by the dearth of Firefly fans
[15:04] <lamont> cjwatson: my mirror sync script is running too fast.  lets fix that. kthxbye.
[15:05]  * lamont waits for trouncing
[15:08] <pitti> BenC: the other patches look fairly straightforward to me
[15:08] <pitti> BenC: the struct change in serial/usb-serial.h doesn't break ABI?
[15:10] <doko> Mithrandir: b22 in my repo
[15:10] <BenC> pitti: I would have thought so, interesting that it didn't
[15:11] <pitti> BenC: in the sense of "abi checker should have caught that", or "it's not used anywhere else and this is alright"?
[15:12] <BenC> pitti: in the sense that if the checker didn't catch it, it should be ok
[15:12] <Mithrandir> doko: cheers, I'll poke it
[15:12] <pitti> BenC: so, if you have a third-party module which passes structs of that type, won't that break?
[15:12] <BenC> pitti: I can do a build again to make sure
[15:12] <pitti> BenC: (sorry, I'm just horribly nervous to not screw this up)
[15:13] <pitti> BenC: so in general the abi checker does check for changed structs?
[15:13] <BenC> pitti: if it passes abi-checker, it's no problem
[15:13] <pitti> ah, cool
[15:14] <pitti> BenC: good, I'll walk through the -proposed packages for now and let linux sit there until your build
[15:14] <pitti> ...finishes
[15:17] <zul> BenC: what about 65631 for dapper -proposed (i know its late, see -kernel earlier)
[15:22] <Kmos> hi
[15:25] <pitti> BenC: call me blind, but I don't see any lbm in dapper-proposed, neither unapproved nor NEW?
[15:26] <BenC> pitti: ooh, I forgot to upload that
[15:27] <BenC> pitti: FYI, I should point out that the idea behind lbm is that it is installed by default in dapper.2
[15:27] <pitti> BenC: by virtue of adding them to the seeds, I assume? (not by adding a dependency to linux-image?)
[15:27] <cjwatson> we may need to tweak base-installer
[15:29] <pitti> oh, for people who just install CLI, you mean?
[15:29] <pitti> ah, ignore me; it's quite obvious
[15:31] <cjwatson> (to clarify: base-installer installs the kernel and so will need to be taught to install l-b-m too. yes, they'll need to be seeded too so that they're actually on the CDs)
[15:32] <pitti> cjwatson: do you think you can do this tomorrow, when the linux-meta lbm packages are in dapper-proposed?
[15:32] <cjwatson> pitti: remind me tomorrow please, but yes, I can give it a go
[15:33] <pitti> I will, thanks
[15:36] <BenC> pitti: lbm-dapper uploaded
[15:38] <pitti> BenC: accepted, thanks
[15:38] <soren> Who has power to approve/decline nominations in Launchpad?
[15:39] <ScottK> soren: Any ubuntu-dev.
[15:39] <pitti> soren: for bugs? specs?
[15:39] <soren> bugs
[15:39] <pitti> for dapper at least, only ubuntu-drivers, but I'm able to nominate for edgy/feisty/gutsy myself
[15:39] <soren> I'm just almost sure it's the first time I've seen the approve/decline link and I was curious..
[15:40] <soren> ScottK: Oh, really? Hm.
[15:40] <soren> pitti: Oh, we can't even *nominate* for dapper?
[15:40] <pitti> soren: I meant s/nominate/actually add the task/
[15:40] <soren> pitti: Oh, ok.
[15:41] <pitti> soren: nomination is pretty unrestricted (no idea whether it's ubuntu-dev only)
[15:41] <soren> pitti: Right, I would have expected it to be.
[16:19] <sabdfl> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-dev/+polls
[16:19] <sabdfl> polls open in 8 hours for new MOTU council candidates
[16:19] <sabdfl> please vote, everyone!
[16:20] <mjg59> sabdfl: Wow, the UI for that is no longer eye-bleedingly painful!
[16:35] <ProN00b> hey, i have an suggestion for the next release, why not make the stuff avaiable as a preload 1-3 weeks before the actual release so people can start loading the not yet but almost final packages so they only have to download the last minute changes when they download and install the release version
[16:35] <coNP[uni]> ProN00b: I guess it is.
[16:35] <jdong> ProN00b: that's a release candidate....
[16:35] <ProN00b> steam (content delivery platform) does that for example; also i think the game world of warcraft employs a similar method
[16:36] <ProN00b> jdong, well, a release candidate is installed and not just downloaded, i am talking of just downloading so you have it on the actual release
[16:36] <jdong> ProN00b: you can download the release candidate and rsync it up to final
[16:36] <jdong> or even torrent it up to final
[16:37] <jdong> it's still less than 25% of the chunks that fail hash
[16:37] <jdong> I don't know what else we can do...
[16:37] <jdong> oh you mean for the upgrade procedure itself?
[16:37] <jdong> i.e. apt prefetch distribution upgrades?
[16:37] <ProN00b> yeah
[16:38] <mjg59> Because what would be the point?
[16:38] <kdean06> Congrats on another release guys. :)
[16:38] <ProN00b> putting it into the "Update Manager"
[16:38] <bddebian> Heya
[16:38] <mjg59> People would just install them anyway
[16:38] <ProN00b> mjg59, the point would be users having their release faster and servers not crawling under huge load
[16:38] <mjg59> ProN00b: But it wouldn't happen. Once the files were on the servers, people would upgrade to them.
[16:39] <ProN00b> mjg59, huh ?
[16:39] <mjg59> How would you prevent people from installing the precached packages?
[16:39] <cjwatson> ProN00b: we don't have it ready 1-3 weeks before the actual release. The thing that we *do* have ready we *already* put out as a release candidate.
[16:40] <cjwatson> ProN00b: there are already ways to do everything you suggest
[16:40] <ProN00b> cjwatson, so how do i preload the release candidate without installing it and use it in the later install ?
[16:40] <mjg59> ProN00b: I'm getting over 100K/sec from archive.ubuntu.com. It's hardly crawling.
[16:40] <ScottK> ProN00b: Download the RC CD.  Install that, then update
[16:40] <cjwatson> ProN00b: apt-get --download-only dist-upgrade
[16:41] <ProN00b> mjg59, well, my mirror and other peoples mirrors do
[16:41] <mjg59> Using another mirror is always an option
[16:41] <ProN00b> mjg59, yeah, but that would interrupt and break the update
[16:41] <mjg59> No it wouldn't
[16:42] <ProN00b> well, i am doing it with update manager
[16:42] <ProN00b> it told me i can't interrupt
[16:42] <sabdfl> mjg59: well, i have bandages over one eye from having to *create* it :-)
[16:42] <cjwatson> AFAICT update-manager shouldn't tell you that you can't interrupt the fetch
[16:42] <jdong> right
[16:42] <cjwatson> since, hey, it provides a button to cancel the fetch
[16:42] <cjwatson> mvo: is there a bug about that already?
[16:43] <mjg59> ProN00b: Delaying the release by 2 weeks would be pretty equivalent to just asking people to wait two weeks after the release before trying to update. In all probability, the worst of the mirror traffic will be over tomorrow. You could just wait until then.
[16:43] <ProN00b> mjg59, well, they would get it two weeks later instead of getting it exactly on the release date
[16:44] <ProN00b> cjwatson, does dist-upgrade give me the release candidate ?
[16:44] <cjwatson> ProN00b: it gives you whatever is current in the archive
[16:44] <cjwatson> ProN00b: "release candidate" is only a meaningful concept for CD images
[16:45] <mjg59> ProN00b: Yes. Which would be equivalent to putting the release back two weeks.
[16:45] <ProN00b> mjg59, delaying makes no sense
[16:46] <mjg59> ProN00b: It would be the same thing. If we were going to provide a meaningfully stable archive that could be precached for a 2-week period, it would require delaying the release.
[16:46] <ProN00b> cjwatson, well, wouldn't i have to change my sources.list to the new release first then ?
[16:46] <cjwatson> ProN00b: yes
[16:46] <cjwatson> you could change it back afterwards if you liked
[16:46] <cjwatson> there's no way we can have a stable archive for two weeks without releasing it
[16:46] <ProN00b> so i do change - download only dist upgrade - change back
[16:47] <cjwatson> (a) everyone would go berserk (b) developers would always want to upload just one more critical fix (with some considerable justification)
[16:47] <ProN00b> cjwatson, it doesn't have to be stable, but as jdong said, it would contain 75% of the release already
[16:47] <cjwatson> the freezes we already do are quite enough
[16:47] <cjwatson> ProN00b: ok, just do what I suggest above then
[16:48] <cjwatson> we were frozen for two full weeks before release, accepting only high-priority fixes
[16:48] <cjwatson> you could have downloaded most of the updates in that time
[16:48] <ProN00b> yeah, thats what my suggestion is, add that to the update manager
[16:50] <cjwatson> I think that is unwise; as mjg59 says people will want to install it, and we don't want to promote that to all users before we've declared it stable
[16:50] <cjwatson> it is better to put up with a little congestion around release time than to break people's systems
[16:50] <ProN00b> well, it won't make installing any easyer
[16:50] <cjwatson> and honestly, we need the bandwidth to be available before release time so that we can prepare the release
[16:51] <cjwatson> it is preferable for us to have the congestion after release, when it doesn't impede development, than before release
[16:51] <davmor2> Congrats Guys and Gals you've done a smashing job :)
[16:52] <sladen> ProN00b: the update-manager will spread the offers to upgrade out over a 24-48 window anyway depending on when people are connected and when it tries to fetch
[16:53] <ProN00b> i see
[16:54] <ogra> davmor2, wouldnt have happened without cool testers like you ;)
[16:54] <ogra> davmor2, thanks for the edubuntu tests :)
[16:54] <davmor2> np bring on the next baych :)
[16:54] <ProN00b> how much downtime will i have when i always update to the current stuff ?
[16:55] <zul>  /win 11
[16:55] <ogra> well, lets see if we get one, edubuntu might change its face in hardy ....
[17:18] <mvo> cjwatson: about the "can't interrupt fetch"> there is no bug yet, I add one and tag it "later" because the text is no longer true
[17:19] <cjwatson> thanks
[17:35] <lamont> mvo: is there a way to tell update-manager about a local mirror
[17:36] <mvo> lamont: if you sources.list consists of local-mirror urls it should do the right thing. if you have a mixed local-mirror and archive.ubuntu.com it will comment-out your local mirror
[17:36] <lamont> ah
[17:36]  * lamont removes archive.u.c
[17:36] <mvo> lamont: so ensure that you only have local-mirorr deb lines :) and it should ask you "geeh, I don't know those urls, but if you know what you are doing, click "yes"
[17:37] <lamont> hehe
[17:37] <lamont> at home it's even easier, since dnat shoves archive.u.c to the local mirror.
[17:37] <lamont> i win.
[17:38] <mvo> lamont: did you get the dialog?
[17:39] <lamont> it's getting there
[17:39] <mvo> :)
[17:39] <lamont> "preparing the upgrade" fetching file 1 of 2 at 28.7kb/s
[17:39] <lamont> are those bytes or bits?
[17:39] <lamont> :-)
[17:41] <lamont> does update-manager spew a log anywhere?
[17:42] <jdong> lamont: /var/log/dist-something?
[17:43] <jdong> /var/log/dist-upgrade*.log to be more exact
[17:44] <lamont> mvo: no valid mirror found...
[17:44] <lamont> for the win.
[17:48] <ScottK> mjg59: I'd like to discuss your marking Bug #127773 invalid against ACPI.  Booting with acpi=off gets at least the presence of a battery recognized.  That would indicate to me that acpi is in some way involved here.
[17:48] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 127773 in hal "A/C Status, CPU Temp, and Battery no longer recognized as present after upgrade to Gutsy in Dell Latitude L400" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/127773
[17:49] <lamont> mvo: <brett> FWIW, my "installing the upgrades" has taken about 20min to go from "18min remaining" to "16min remaining".
 oh, and it took about 3sec to go from "16min remaining" to "Cleaning up".
[17:50] <lamont> installing the upgrades: about 1 hours 53 minutes remaining.
[17:50] <lamont> sigh
[17:54] <lamont> mvo: what is "modifying the software channels"?  is that just updating sources.list?
[17:57] <cjwatson> ScottK: the package 'acpi' is not what you think
[17:57] <cjwatson> ScottK: bugs are almost never valid on the acpi package
[17:57] <ScottK> cjwatson: OK.  What package is that then?
[17:57] <ScottK> Thanks.
[17:57] <cjwatson> ScottK: acpi=off is implemented by the kernel
[17:57] <cjwatson> linux-source-$whatever
[17:57] <ScottK> Ah.  OK.
[17:57] <ScottK> Thanks for that.
[17:58] <cjwatson> 'apt-cache show acpi' - it's just a tool that displays some status information
[17:58]  * ScottK learns new stuff every day here.
[17:58] <ScottK> mjg59: Nevermind.
[18:01] <lamont> sigh.  installing 1400 packages takes a while
[18:44] <evand> mdz mjg59 sabdfl : Can one of you give the thumbs up to https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/gobuntu-hardy for uds-boston-2007?
[18:45] <cjwatson> (approved by me but I'm not in the TB)
[18:47] <Psi-Jack> Hmm, was there ever a "create_user" command prior to 7.10?
[18:48] <DShepherd> topic needs fixing
[18:48] <sabdfl> evand: done
[18:49] <evand> thanks sabdfl
[18:50] <cjwatson> Psi-Jack: not in 7.10 either; it's called 'adduser'
[18:50] <cjwatson> assuming you're talking about the standard system and not some database or something
[18:50] <Psi-Jack> cjwatson: Ahh, okay. I JUST found out what I was looking for. Found a bug in dbmail's postinst. ;)
[18:51] <cjwatson> DShepherd: that better? hardy isn't open yet so I haven't made the other edits you may be thinking of
[18:51] <Psi-Jack> Seems to be in the script itself within the package diff.
[18:51] <DShepherd> cjwatson, much
[18:53] <Psi-Jack> Wow. I see why. The entire create_user() function from it is being removed, in this postinst script.
[18:57] <mvo> lamont: yeah, just modfiying sources.list. the time calculation is pretty rough
[18:57] <lamont> ok
[18:57] <lucas> are there known problems with installing ubuntu inside qemu ? I can boot the dapper CD fine, but not the feisty or gutsy ISOs
[18:58] <CarlFK> lucas: ask again in #ubuntu - i do it
[19:24] <OpenSorce> okay folks.....this isn't flamebait just a heads up: I'm starting my review of 7.10's fitness for brand new users entitled "Kufailure: a review of Kubuntu 7.10" I'm sorry it worked out like this :-(
[19:26] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: announcing it ahead of time doesn't relieve you from being flamebait ;-)
[19:26] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: and I'm glad to see you managed to download the .iso :-)
[19:26]  * ScottK looks around to see how many bugs OpenSorce fixed?
[19:27] <OpenSorce> ScottK, I'm a journalist....not a devel.....I'm just paying you guys the courtesy of a heads-up
[19:28] <OpenSorce> I really had high hopes for Kubuntu 7.10.....maybe the next release will do better
[19:28] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: would you permit the courtesy of a rubutal? :-)
[19:28] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: and frankly, a "heads up" that you're going to do a negative reviw is not really very exciting
[19:28] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, if it gets printed on-line yes there's a comments function
[19:29] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, didn't want to blindside you guys.....okay I got work to do....good luck with the next release
[19:29] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: well, you can't blindside us when we don't know you exist, sorry
[19:30] <LaserJock> I'm sorry you had a negative experience, truly
[19:30] <LaserJock> but I'm not sure how you expect us to respond to this "heads up" when there is no context
[19:31] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, actually if this is helpful let me say that the reason it failed our tests is it couldn't pass the "basics" on install
[19:31] <OpenSorce> Basics: Keyboard, Mouse, Sound, Video (proprietary drivers incl.), Networking (WiFi incl.)
[19:31] <OpenSorce> it failed in video and wifi
[19:31] <pochu> Report bugs?
[19:31] <calc> OpenSorce: which particular video and wifi?
[19:32]  * ompaul is now very curious as to what kind of hardware was it run on 
[19:32] <OpenSorce> calc, older Nvidia card and an older usb wifi adapter
[19:32] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: ok, well that's a good start :-)
[19:32] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: did you only try it on one machine?
[19:32] <calc> OpenSorce: which particular usb chipset? broadcom?
[19:32] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, yes same machine we test all new distros on
[19:33] <OpenSorce> calc, acx
[19:33] <OpenSorce> calc, Mandriva 2008.0 set it all up perfect right out of the box.....you guys may want to have a look at what they are doing
[19:34] <calc> OpenSorce: interesting, i don't know anything about acx wireless but there is a driver for it in Ubuntu
[19:34] <OpenSorce> and ndiswrapper not even included in the basic install?
[19:34] <calc> OpenSorce: under /lib/modules/2.6.22-14-generic/ubuntu/wireless/acx  maybe it wasn't detected?
[19:35] <OpenSorce> calc, yes the driver thinks my adapter is a wired device
[19:35] <calc> oops
[19:36] <OpenSorce> calc, it doesn't matter....it has to work out of the box....a new user wouldn't look there or be able to get here for help....he wouldn't have internet to do it.....networking failure is a deal breaker, y'know?
[19:36] <calc> just as an aside it appears the acx line of wifi chips from TI is some of the worst supported under linux
[19:36] <calc> OpenSorce: a new user would likely have a centrino system though as well... which is well supported, ymmv
[19:37] <calc> i didn't know TI still even made wifi chips since intel owns that market now
[19:38] <calc> but yes filing a bug report about the fact that the acx driver is confused and think it is hard wired would be very useful for people with that hardware
[19:38] <calc> i'm not certain about the nvidia issue, whether ubuntu installs the proprietary driver by default or not
[19:38] <OpenSorce> calc, well it's something we do out of fairness....we did polls on the hardware of most new Linux users and found them to have "middle-of-road" systems by and large....so we use a "middle-of-the-road" system for testing
[19:39] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: you should really use more than one system though
[19:39] <OpenSorce> calc, well the video issue is NOT a deal breaker provided the user can easily fetch the right driver
[19:39] <calc> OpenSorce: which middle of the road intel systems use non-intel chipset for wifi? or do you mean middle of the road as in 3-4 year old hardware?
[19:39] <calc> oh doh i am confusing myself
[19:39] <LaserJock> I become a bit skeptical of reviews of any OS don't on only one hardware set
[19:39] <calc> this was usb so was wifi in a desktop?
[19:40] <LaserJock> *done
[19:40]  * calc needs to learn reading comprehension again
[19:40] <OpenSorce> calc, hehe....middle of the road as far as age of  hardware as well
[19:41]  * calc notes his definition of middle of the road age-wise would be ~ 1.5yr old, 3+ is obsolete ;)
[19:41] <LaserJock> :(
[19:41]  * LaserJock is obsolete
[19:41] <calc> heh
[19:41] <ogra> no, 3+ is ready for thin client :)
[19:41] <pitti> calc: in fact I only have three-year old HW (and older), and it's working very well
[19:41] <OpenSorce> calc, yes it's a desktop system....we use wifi in testing because statistics show that over 55% of computer users today rely on wifi...and pretty much every distro can handle most network cards fine
[19:41] <calc> of course i went from building kde to building ooo so i need faster hardware than average
[19:41] <LaserJock> heh
[19:41] <pitti> the good thing of the past years is that the GHz/MB-Mania has settled down a bit
[19:42] <pitti> apparently computers are finally fast enough for people not to care about more power so much any more
[19:42] <pitti> calc: you are special :)
[19:42] <calc> pitti: heh
[19:42] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, guys.....you did much better with the news of the article than #debian did....I think I'm still baned from there :-)
[19:42] <calc> well quad-core is now fairly common and octo-core will be in a few years
[19:43] <pitti> so I have to agree with OpenSorce that 3 year old HW shouldn't be entirely neglected
[19:43] <pwnguin> well, #debian has the dual problem of not being ubuntu, and the title basically being a troll
[19:43] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: heh
[19:43] <calc> OpenSorce: i think the main reason we don't have ndiswrapper is because its yucky but acx should be made to work better than it did for OpenSorce
[19:43] <calc> er for you
[19:44] <OpenSorce> calc, acx_usb works great in Mandriva 2008.0
[19:44] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: well, look, we obviously don't like negative reviews. If you had hardware-related problems we'd like to fix those
[19:44] <calc> OpenSorce: ah then maybe we are missing a driver then
[19:44] <calc> OpenSorce: i only saw a acx.ko
[19:44] <pwnguin> how is there already a mandriva 2008.0?
[19:44] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: so if you have time to do some bug reporting or an email or something so we can get stuff fixed for other people it'd be helpful
[19:45] <calc> OpenSorce: that would something useful to note in the bug report if you create one, since there doesn't appear to be a acx_usb for ubuntu kernel
[19:45] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, I can fix them myself honestly I just rate these articles for new users and do things the way newbs would so they don't get discouraged downloading one distro after the other
[19:46] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: right, but you have to admit, one negative install based on a particular hardware set is not really gonna help newbs
[19:46] <calc> OpenSorce: probably part of the difference in response is that #debian is mostly (all?) users and ubuntu-devel is mostly developers
[19:46] <OpenSorce> calc, I'll try to do that....gotta get openSuse download and start my review of it as soon as I finish this review
[19:46] <LaserJock> there are thousands and thousands of people who will have no such problems
[19:46] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, it's a random sampling....and I just report my findings
[19:46] <calc> it would be nice to eventually have a hardware database for ubuntu that could note what is known to work and what doesn't
[19:46] <LaserJock> but it's not random sampling
[19:47] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, since my review of driva 2008 there have been like 20 installs of it throughout the staff.....no issues....not one
[19:47] <LaserJock> that's good
[19:48] <calc> OpenSorce: did the nvidia video not work at all, or just not install the non-free driver?
[19:48] <pwnguin> well, now we know where to steal patches from ;)
[19:48] <cjwatson> OpenSorce: FYI, we ship ndiswrapper on the CD for users who are stuck; just don't install it by default because the result is very hard to support in practice
[19:48] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, I agree with you......I'm going to have at least 5 more people run Kubuntu 7.10 in live cd mode and see if it works before I release the article
[19:48] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: I've installed Gutsy on several computers with not a single hardware issue too
[19:49] <OpenSorce> calc, it didn't install the proprietary driver....but I know Kubuntu doesn't do that.....it should
[19:49] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, did they have wifi?
[19:49] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: good, please do. I certainly don't mind you reporting what failed for you. But I think it's a stretch to call that representitive
[19:49] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: yes
[19:50] <LaserJock> ATI, Nvidia graphics, and Atheros for wifi
[19:51] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, well most of these folks are running cheap lappies (acer) if it does better as a rule we'll take another look before publishing
[19:51] <calc> OpenSorce: is it an intel based laptop?
[19:51] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: all of my machines are chepo machines at least 3 years old
[19:51] <OpenSorce> calc, yes
[19:51] <cjwatson> OpenSorce: we'd like to find out why the free drivers are failing for you, as just installing the proprietary driver doesn't move the state of free software forward particularly well; so we'd be interested in your bug report in the context of why the free drivers aren't working, rather than "hey, you guys, you should default to the proprietary driver" :-)
[19:51] <LaserJock> I'm just a poor grad student
[19:52] <OpenSorce> brb testing
[19:52] <calc> OpenSorce: intel ones likely work no problem at all, amd probably too though they usually use broadcom which i am not as familar with
[19:52] <cjwatson> (we have to think of the longer term as well as the short term)
[19:52] <calc> cjwatson: it sounds like we might be missing a driver for him, acx_usb
[19:53] <cjwatson> yes, that may need to be pulled into linux-ubuntu-modules
[19:53] <cjwatson> (it's not in the stock kernel tree)
[19:54] <sladen> OpenSorce: short term aim is to try and get _a_ driver that works on that piece of hardware;  longer term we want to get _a free driver_ that works on that piece of hardware
[19:54] <cjwatson> usb.c is actually compiled into acx.ko ...
[19:54] <sladen> but that's pretty much was cjwatson said
[19:55] <cjwatson> so you need a kernel team member to figure this out, which is best done by means of a bug :)
[19:56] <pwnguin> OpenSorce: if you really want to document the suitability of Ubuntu 7.10 or not, try digging through the bug reports ;)
[19:57] <pwnguin> plenty of "my wireless doesn't work" and "sound broken [regression]"
[19:57] <mathiaz> jdstrand: about bug 119075, do you think the priority should still be high ?
[19:57] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 119075 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "Root password policy for mysql" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/119075
[19:58] <jdstrand> mathiaz: checking...
[19:59] <jdstrand> mathiaz: for gutsy and later? no.  IMO this is Wishlist.  gutsy and higher prompts for the password, so not a security issue any more.
[19:59] <OpenSorce> back
[20:00] <OpenSorce> pwnguin, I test the suitability for new users.....they would dig through bug reports
[20:00] <OpenSorce> *wouldn't
[20:01] <mathiaz> jdstrand: ok. Thanks.
[20:01] <jdstrand> mathiaz: np
[20:01] <pwnguin> OpenSorce: im not saying they would. im saying that if you're trying to gather a representative sample of the kinds of problems out there, the bugtracker is a tool for muckracking journalism ^_^
[20:02] <OpenSorce> so far 3 out of 5 live cd runs fail to recognize and setup the wifi cards....I'm sorry the article is going to run as-is
[20:02] <OpenSorce> pwnguin, I hate to tell you this but new users who can't connect to the internet do not often file bug reports
[20:02] <calc> OpenSorce: in the article could you also document which chipsets the wifi you tested are?
[20:02] <OpenSorce> thanks so much for your time guys
[20:02] <pwnguin> jeebus h mcchrysty
[20:02] <pwnguin> im not saying they will
[20:03] <pwnguin> im saying if you're looking for dirt
[20:03] <OpenSorce> calc, yes I always list the hardware....it doesn't always get printed but I always submit it
[20:03] <calc> ok
[20:03] <OpenSorce> pwnguin, okay and thanks again you guys, good luck on the next release
[20:04] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: thanks
[20:05] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: and really, if you have a chance we'd love to get some followup on those hardware issues :-)
[20:12] <ajmitch> good morning
[20:16] <pochu> morning ajmitch
[20:25] <smallfoot-> i downloaded 7.10 gutsy today, then i saw a wubi file on the cd, and i clicked on it, and suddently it started to install stuff on my computer, without ask me
[20:34] <Mithrandir> cjwatson: mkfs.ext3 on the netboot images is borked, it seems.  Can't find libblkid  (amd64)
[20:36] <evand> smallfoot-: you shouldn't click on executables that you do not know the purpose of.
[20:37] <LaserJock> evand: it should also be self-explanitor what executables are ;-)
[20:37] <LaserJock> you can't expect people to not click on things
[20:38] <evand> well, if you can think of an easy way of saying "use the windows bootloader to start the install to avoid having to change the drive order in BIOS", I'm all ears :)
[20:38] <Mithrandir> evand: it could pop up a dialog saying what it's for, then give the user an option to continue or quit
[20:39] <CarlFK> not all exes can have GUIs
[20:39] <LaserJock> Mithrandir: exactly
[20:39] <evand> Mithrandir, LaserJock, smallfoot-, fair enough.  I'll ask xivulon to make the change for Hardy.
[20:40] <LaserJock> CarlFK: no, but ones that start installing files to disk should ask before doing so
[20:40] <CarlFK> I will agree it is an issue.  but I think working on it has a pretty low return on investment
[20:40] <Amaranth> Do you think an SRU to add things to the compiz blacklist would be accepted?
[20:40] <LaserJock> it really just starts installing?
[20:40] <LaserJock> I'd click it :-)
[20:40] <Amaranth> Seems we missed a couple of the new set of ATI cards we blacklisted
[20:43] <LaserJock> Amaranth: I was utterly shocked that compiz worked out-of-the-box on my ancient ATI card. Really surprised me
[20:43] <LaserJock> I thought only nvidia and intel were working with compiz by default
[20:43] <Amaranth> LaserJock: The ancient cards are fine, even the Radeon 7000 (just don't use wobbly)
[20:43] <Amaranth> The problem is some r300 and r400 cards
[20:43] <LaserJock> yeah, I vahve a 7000 IGP
[20:43] <LaserJock> *have
[20:44] <LaserJock> but I gave me fits so I turned it off
[20:44] <Amaranth> compiz 'works' on pretty much everything that supports non-power-of-two textures and texture_from_pixmap
[20:44] <LaserJock> at some point I might try to see if I can figure what was messing up windows
[20:44] <Amaranth> so older ATI, intel, and nvidia (and new ATI with the just released fglrx 8.42)
[20:45] <Amaranth> Just released as in it should be out right about now :P
[20:47] <CarlFK> Mithrandir: cuz you said  "netboot images is borked"... you doing anything with apt and proxies?  'something' seems to have just changed in the last 24 hours
[20:47] <Mithrandir> CarlFK: yes, I'm using a proxy, but I don't see why that should affect anything.
[20:47] <CarlFK> seperate issue
[20:50] <CarlFK> months ago I logged a bug (lloking for it) that I worked around with 'goofy'  preseed file  settings.  it may have gotten fixed, and now goofy=broke
[20:51] <CarlFK> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bug/117398
[20:51] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 117398 in debian-installer "netboot install proxy apt-cacher" [Undecided,New]
[21:01] <smallfoot-> evand, thanks i look forward to Hardy, i was really scared when it started to install stuff, when i clicked on it, i just wanted to check what it was, i've heard about wubi before, so i thought it would prompt me, not just run the install
[21:01] <smallfoot-> also, another thing, gutsy comes with firefox, but its not clear what version it is
[21:02] <evand> smallfoot-: sorry, I believe it was an oversight that grew out of the fact that originally you'd get a dialog (as it was wubi), but as time went on it became just a utility to let you install without changing the boot order.
[21:02] <evand> smallfoot-: 2.0.0.6
[21:03] <smallfoot-> oh
[21:03] <smallfoot-> okie
[21:03] <smallfoot-> it should be made clear what version it is though, so if firefox is still in hardy, put so it displays its version
[21:04] <jdong> smallfoot-: why is it unclear the version of Firefox in Gutsy?
[21:04] <jdong> the help->About box is labeled 2.0.0.6, debin pkg is   Installed: 2.0.0.6+2nobinonly-0ubuntu1
[21:07] <smallfoot-> oh, sorry for being unclear
[21:07] <smallfoot-> i meant on the CD
[21:07] <smallfoot-> on the gutsy cd, there is a windows version of firefox
[21:17] <evand> smallfoot-: you should probably file a bug.
[21:17] <evand> smallfoot-: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-winfoss/+filebug
[21:35] <smallfoot-> evand, dont have account
[21:35] <smallfoot-> would appreciate if you did it for me
[21:35] <evand> smallfoot-: sure thing
[21:35] <Keybuk> cjwatson: still around?
[21:36] <smallfoot-> awesome
[21:39] <Mithrandir> cjwatson: false alarm, it was something else that went wrong, it seems
[22:07] <mdke> haha, love the dictionary extract on the website
[22:12] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, if I get permission to wait 2 weeks on my Kubuntu 7.10 review do you think it'll make much difference?
[22:15] <ScottK> OpenSorce: I'd say it depends a lot on what exactly your concerns were and are they ones that can be fixed with stable release updates (meaning fit the criteria, have developers interested in working on them, and have reasonable solutions available).
[22:15] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: well, it's possible that if the issues that are causing you problems can be fixed via a Stable Release Update that they could get fixed
[22:15] <calc> when does hardy open up? :)
[22:15] <LaserJock> calc: isn't it already?
[22:15] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, how often d SRU's come out for Ubuntu?
[22:16] <ScottK> LaserJock: No.  It's still syncing.
[22:16] <ScottK> OpenSorce: They are published when they are ready, not on a set schedule.
[22:16] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: as soon as a fix can be isolated, uploaded, and tested
[22:16] <LaserJock> if it's a problem with proprietary drivers it might be quite difficult
[22:16] <LaserJock> if it's a problem that's easy to fix it can be quite quick
[22:17] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: you've already seen that several of our developers are interested in helping fix the problems you were seeing
[22:17] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, the problem is that on 6 out of 6 machines Kubuntu 7.10 failed to properly setup the wifi cards
[22:18] <calc> OpenSorce: are they all the same chipset or different ones?
[22:18] <LaserJock> if you can work with them giving them information and maybe testing fixes it should be reasonable
[22:18] <calc> LaserJock: nope no hardy yet on a.u.c ;-)
[22:18] <LaserJock> but I'm just a lackey so don't take what I say as set in stone
[22:18] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, you might be interested to know that we did the exact same test with Mandriva 2008....which either set them up or gave us a gui app to help us make ndiswrapper drivers for them
[22:19]  * calc is guessing it won't open until after uds
[22:19] <ubotu> Mandriva bug 2008 in Core Packages "reloading the user config or system menu closes the menudrake window" [Normal,Resolved: duplicate] http://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=2008
[22:19] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: yes, so we've got to isolate what drivers (and versions), etc. that Mandriva's using
[22:19] <ajmitch> calc: it's usually open beforehand
[22:20] <calc> ajmitch: ok
[22:20] <LaserJock> calc: really? in the past it's copied over but doko doesn't break everything until UDS ;-)
[22:20] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, ok...well if you think that waiting two weeks will help I will wait and note that in the article
[22:20] <calc> LaserJock: heh
[22:20] <calc> doko: its time for you to break hardy ;)
[22:20] <ajmitch> calc: you just want to upload OOo again, don't you?
[22:21] <calc> ajmitch: heh not yet, 2.3.1 won't be ready for probably another few weeks
[22:21] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: well, I would say that waiting alone might not get you much in two weeks. We need to get the kernel guys to help figure out what to do it sounds like
[22:21] <calc> ajmitch: i just never run stable releases of linux ;)
[22:21] <ajmitch> hehe :)
[22:21]  * ajmitch hands calc a copy of sid
[22:21] <calc> well i did earlier this year but only because ipw3945 was too broken for to use it at all :\
[22:21] <LaserJock> calc: you don't do new uploads just to change positions of the Ubuntu logo in the splash? ;-)
[22:21] <calc> ajmitch: i ran sid for about 7 years
[22:21] <ajmitch> LaserJock: oh that's evil
[22:22] <calc> ajmitch: well thats not strictly true, when i started using debian in 1998 sid wasn't really unstable it was a spot for completely broken things to go, more so than now
[22:22] <OpenSorce> LaserJock, okay....we'll wait....thanks again :-)
[22:22] <ajmitch> "hm, the colour doesn't quite look right, let's upload again!"
[22:22] <ajmitch> calc: yeah, I started with debian not long after that :)
[22:22] <LaserJock> OpenSorce: I do hope things can be fixed for you. 0 out of 6 is no good
[22:22] <calc> ajmitch: iirc they didn't switch sid to be unstable until pools were implemented
[22:22] <ajmitch> & ran sid until just after warty was out
[22:23] <calc> i switched to warty when the first cd announcement was made in ~ sept 2004 (i think)
[22:23] <LaserJock> I *started* running sid a couple weeks ago
[22:24] <calc> LaserJock: you're a n00b ;-)
[22:24] <LaserJock> so maybe by 15.04 I can say "back in the day when I ran sid"
[22:24]  * ajmitch feels sorry for mvo, all these spurious upgrade failures beind filed against update-manager
[22:24] <LaserJock> just think, by then a whole generation of developers will have no idea where the names come from :(
[22:25] <calc> LaserJock: hmm yea TS will be ~ 20 years old then
[22:25] <ajmitch> a cult classic, I'm sure
[22:25] <LaserJock> by that time we'll have Debian releases like "3rd sheep"
[22:26] <LaserJock> they'll be digging in the credits looking for names
[22:26] <calc> debian still hasn't used stinky has it?
[22:26] <LaserJock> no
[22:26] <calc> debian stinky sounds like a good release to me
[22:26] <LaserJock> slinky, but not stinky
[22:26] <LaserJock> I think
[22:26] <calc> for stinky pete
[22:26] <ajmitch> LaserJock: you assume that there'l be that many debian releases in that time
[22:26] <calc> slink was 2.1 iirc
[22:26] <LaserJock> ajmitch: ohhh, right. I forgot
[22:27] <ajmitch> maybe one every 18months-2 years
[22:27] <LaserJock> is that why the only release when there's some sort of astrological alignment?
[22:27] <LaserJock> they're afraid of running out of names
[22:27] <calc> LaserJock: nah, just too much red tape
[22:28] <calc> if they run out of TS names they will probably move to the next pixar movie
[22:29] <mc44> Toy Story 2? :)
[22:29] <LaserJock> calc: well, isn't it a trilogy
[22:29] <calc> LaserJock: but most of the same characters
[22:29] <LaserJock> so maybe they can ask Mark to fund Toy Story 4 as a good will gesture ;-)
[22:29] <calc> they'll gain a few more names
[22:30] <calc> oh i didn't know TS3 is coming out in 2010
[22:45] <jcole> does totem-gstreamer now support dvd menus?
[22:45] <jcole> or do i have to install totem-xine again
[22:58] <mjg59> jcole: No, it doesn't
[22:59] <jcole> mjg59: ok
[23:00] <jcole> mjg59: btw, what is the recommended dvd playback app for ubuntu... totem-xine?
[23:00] <jcole> mjg59: thats what's always worked for me
[23:02] <mjg59> gxine will also work
[23:02] <mjg59> I don't think we have a recommended one
[23:03] <jcole> mjg59: good point, then i dont have to clobber totem-gstreamer
[23:03] <jcole> mjg59: thank
[23:03] <jcole> s*
[23:03] <jcole> :)
[23:06] <pipegeek> Hihi.
[23:06] <pipegeek> I'm wondering what the recommended means of getting reiser4 working under gutsy are.  Seems reiser4progs are in the repository for some reason, but the filesystem itself isn't.
[23:07] <mjg59> There isn't one
[23:07] <ScottK> pipegeek: I think the recommendation is don't
[23:07] <pipegeek> OK..... but, then, why is reiser4progs included?
[23:07] <pipegeek> if it's not meant to be used
[23:08] <mjg59> The tools are provided for anyone who wants to build their own kernel, but we don't support the use of the filesystem
[23:08] <pipegeek> fair enough. :^(
[23:08] <pipegeek> thanks, folks.
[23:09] <jcole> pipegeek: http://packages.ubuntu.com/gutsy/admin/reiser4progs
[23:09] <pipegeek> jcole: that doesn't contain the filesystem
[23:09] <jcole> pipegeek: kernel-patch-2.6-reiser4 "Package not available"
[23:09] <pipegeek> ah
[23:09] <pipegeek> yup
[23:09] <pipegeek> there's the answer
[23:10] <jcole> pipegeek: apt-get source kernel-patch-2.6-reiser4
[23:10] <jcole> pipegeek: or whatever, and patch your kernel
[23:10] <pipegeek> yeah.... not worth a rebuild
[23:10] <pipegeek> and there's no such package, fyi
[23:11] <pipegeek> darn.
[23:14] <geser> jcole: kernel-patch-2.6-reiser4 is on the sync blacklist
[23:15] <pipegeek> Just out of curiosity, might I inquire as to the reasons behind this policy?
[23:15] <pipegeek> (I can think of several, I'm just curious)
[23:17] <geser> Ubuntu doesn't "support" the packaged kernel patches
[23:18] <pipegeek> but if I were interested in taking a look for myself (because you seem to imply that they *have* been packaged).... where might I find them?
[23:18] <geser> it's not only this kernel patch on the blacklist but all packaged kernel patches
[23:18] <geser> in Debian
[23:18] <pipegeek> got it
[23:18] <pipegeek> thank you.
[23:18] <pipegeek> ^.^  Sorry for being a pain
[23:19] <geser> but no guarantee that they even apply on the Ubuntu kernel source
[23:19] <pipegeek> understood.
[23:19] <pipegeek> well, it's a project for some future day
[23:20] <Lamego> what are the benefits of using reiser4 ?
[23:20] <pipegeek> Never have; wanted to play with it.  This is for my home system, not for anything important
[23:21] <slangasek> calc: so far the Debian release names have been restricted to characters named on-screen in TS1, I don't think stinky pete qualifies?
[23:36] <calc> slangasek: yea he was in TS2 so it will be a while
[23:45] <slangasek> calc: assuming the RMs want to use TS2 names at all