[04:22] <jayakumar2> hi. here's my newbie feedback on m-i-c. all the initial steps work very cleanly. i am very impressed. the final step, ie: image-creator -c create-live-usb says a bunch of stuff and then sticks on mkfs.vfat which is where it is right now. i think it's doing something since i see that /tmp/pdk-$$ is growing
[06:47] <dholbach> good morning
[13:16] <apple2> probably many people have already asked but what about the nokia 770/n800?
[13:17] <amitk> apple2: what about the nokias?
[13:17] <agoliveira> apple2: Use the FAQ, Luke... https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/FAQ
[13:20] <apple2> I have read the FAQ lots of times?
[13:20] <apple2> There has been some thoughts that it will run on armel as well
[13:21] <lool> apple2: There's no ongoing effort to do this in Ubuntu; you're welcome to start such efforts if an armel Ubuntu is what you're looking for
[13:21] <apple2> ok
[13:22] <Mithrandir> we'd be quite happy if somebody were to start working on it, but we just don't have the resources at the moment
[13:22] <apple2> For now I'm workin on debian sid for nokia 770
[13:22] <apple2> and its getting ok
[13:22] <lool> apple2: There are efforts for Debian though
[13:23] <apple2> but ubuntu sounds better
[13:23] <apple2> porting debian is not difficult 
[13:23] <apple2> for now i have working apt
[13:23] <apple2> with lots of packages
[13:23] <apple2> an dx server
[13:23] <apple2> with touch
[13:23] <apple2> X server*
[13:24] <apple2> and when is ubuntu mobile supposed to get out?
[13:26] <suihkulokki> apple2: I'm working the debian/armel port (and running it on n800)
[13:26] <suihkulokki> what exactly do you need/want/do ?
[13:27] <apple2> for now I'm just experimenting
[13:27] <apple2> are you using real X
[13:28] <apple2> or xomap
[13:28] <suihkulokki> xomap
[13:28] <apple2> me too
[13:30] <apple2> and what about wifi manager?
[13:31] <suihkulokki> apple2: "works" with command line stuff - ifconfig wlan0 up, iwconfig wlan essid "myessid", dhclient
[13:31] <suihkulokki> network-manager seems unhappy..
[13:32] <Mithrandir> apple2: release date> we're looking at doing a full release with 8.04, so April.
[13:33] <ian_brasil> agoliveira: here you go https://maemo.org/news/announcements/view/1192708879.html ..you will need a maemo account
[13:33] <apple2> so we'll have to wait
[13:34] <ian_brasil> there are 500 discount codes  to buy an N810 for for 99€
[13:35] <ian_brasil> there is a lot of mobile news today it seems with this announcement too http://www.engadget.com/2007/10/17/apple-planning-iphone-sdk-for-february/
[13:37] <apple2> is n810 for sale already?
[13:39] <agoliveira> ian_brasil: Cool. I'll check it out right now.
[13:39] <ian_brasil> apple2: i think it depends where you live i think
[13:40] <amitk> apple2: not until Nov
[13:41] <apple2> hope n800 gets cheaper :)
[13:43] <agoliveira> ian_brasil: Weird... I do have an account there but I can seem to be able to login...
[13:44] <amitk> apple2: it already is ~100eur cheaper in some shops
[13:45] <ian_brasil> agoliveira: it took me 4/5 tries ...the first linux tablets are becoming collectors items especially the 770 ...get one if you can i reckon
[13:46] <agoliveira> ian_brasil: I already have a 770 almost since they were released.
[13:48] <apple2> I have a 770 and I don't think there is much of a revolution until now
[13:49] <ian_brasil> agoliveira: ume running on my 770 would be awesome ..we just need someone to open up the wlan and power management
[13:50] <agoliveira> ian_brasil: Same old, same old... :)
[13:50] <ian_brasil> agoliveira: yes, point taken
[13:58]  * agoliveira just can't login into maemo.org
[13:59] <lool> ian_brasil: I noticed that you have a developer focus in some parts of the umeguide; I think it would make sense to hint at hildon-audit which sounds like a good QA tool for a developer
[13:59] <ian_brasil> i had a wrong password which was my problem
[14:00] <ian_brasil> and there are lots of people complaining on #maemo so looks like there is some site problem
[14:01] <ian_brasil> lool: i have that on my ToDo list :)
[14:02] <lool> ian_brasil: Personally I witnessed that the password (even when incorrect) is sent multiple times in a row; I suspect the midguard integration to be the culprit
[14:02] <lool> And when the password is incorrect, this prevent retrying and doesn't display any error message (here), but on reload and after entering the proper one twice, it works
[14:03] <lool> ian_brasil: Are you in a position to fix the "submit" button on the profile page?
[14:04] <ian_brasil> lool: no, i am only a monkey not an organ grinder ;)
[16:07] <mfrey> Mithrandir: ping
[16:09] <Ward1983> is ubuntu-mobile out now?
[16:29] <Mithrandir> mfrey: hi?
[16:35] <mfrey> Mithrandir: I sent an email to the list but while I have you -- I found that the reason the usplash does not work for the Menlow builds is that we are missing the usplash packes
[16:40] <Mithrandir> mfrey: ok, but there's nothing to be done about that, Gutsy is released.
[16:40] <agoliveira> Ward1983: Not as a release. The project is ongoing as you can see. The target for the first release is with Ubuntu 8.04.
[16:40] <mfrey> Mithrandir: ok but moving forward -- what is the procedure now that Gutsy is released
[16:43] <amitk> Mithrandir: not missing packages in the repo, missing packages in the fset
[16:43] <mfrey> amitk: correct 
[16:44] <Mithrandir> amitk: still nothing to be done about that.
[16:44] <Mithrandir> mfrey: once we have PPAs for lpia, we can upload a new ubuntu-mobile metapackage there and include usplash in the ubuntu-mobile package.
[16:48] <amitk> Mithrandir: nothing to be done in Gutsy, true, but I think mfrey is asking it to be fixed in image-creator. I am assuming they are running image-creator from git. mfrey?
[16:48] <Ward1983> agoliveira, and if i want to fiddle around with it in a few weeks or so, can i allready test it?
[16:48] <Ward1983> agoliveira, and if yes, how?
[16:48] <mfrey> amitk: correct -- that is how we generate nightly builds for our customer
[16:48] <agoliveira> Ward1983: Of course. Take a look here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/
[16:49] <mfrey> amitk: maybe this is a question for HappyCamp 
[16:49] <amitk> mfrey: yes
[16:49] <agoliveira> HappyCamp A.K.A sodarock
[16:50] <agoliveira> (just in case he wasn't bliped :) )
[16:50] <Ward1983> agoliveira, i did, and i just did again to make sure, but i can't find anything about how to test it
[16:51] <agoliveira> Ward1983: Install it on a chroot or device (like the Samsung Q1 Ultra) and start to play with it. What else do you want?
[16:52] <Ward1983> agoliveira, i want to know HOW to download it, where, i can't find it on the wiki
[16:52] <ian_brasil> Ward1983: you can use dogtail on the UI, you can also rum autotest on the kernel
[16:52] <agoliveira> Ward1983: Have you seem the links " Installing UME test environment *"?
[16:54] <agoliveira> not to mention teh UME Guide, etc
[16:54] <Ward1983> agoliveira, i thought that was about creating a test environment on a regular PC to program for ubuntu-mobile ?
[16:54] <ian_brasil> Ward1983: you could look on here http://umeguides.net/ as agoliveira mentioned
[16:56] <agoliveira> Ward1983: I don't understand what's your doubt. As I said above and it's on the docs, you can install the environment on your PC or in a device directly. From there you can play with it, install applications, hack into it, etc
[16:56] <Ward1983> ian_brasil, i didnt realist the isntallinfo would be there, but i now know
[16:56] <Ward1983> agoliveira, i know now, which is why i asked, because i didnt know
[16:57] <Ward1983> agoliveira, ian_brasil thanx for the info!
[16:57] <agoliveira> Ward1983: No problem.
[16:57] <ian_brasil> Ward1983: OK...happy hacking !
[17:00] <davidm> Just about time to start the meeting
[17:00] <bspencer_> good mornin' y'all.
[17:00] <Mithrandir> davidm: do you want to do it this week?
[17:00] <mfrey> good afternoon
[17:00]  * lool suspects Intel folks to schedule the join in their chat clients
[17:00] <davidm> Mithrandir, sure
[17:01] <davidm> #startmeeting
[17:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:01. The chair is davidm.
[17:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:01] <agoliveira> bspencer:'mornign Bob
[17:01] <mawhalen> good morning
[17:01] <Don_Johnson> Good Morning
[17:01] <amitk> evening
[17:02] <davidm> good morning, I'm grabbing the list from last week, one moment
[17:02] <agoliveira> mawhalen: Good morning Intel Happy People!
[17:02] <robr2> good morning
[17:02] <cwong1> good morning
[17:02] <Mithrandir> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/Meeting/20071018 is today's agenda.  I think we should have a call for extra agenda items as the first item. :-)
[17:02] <davidm> You can update the meeting agenda at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/Meeting/20071018
[17:03] <davidm> Yes, does anyone have extra agenda items?  If so please update the page.
[17:03] <davidm> While we leave time for that to happen shall we address the Action items from last week?
[17:04] <Mithrandir> sure, it seems like I'm first out there.
[17:05] <Mithrandir> I've requested a download area, but I just recently did that, and I suspect IS have had their hands full with the release
[17:05] <davidm> TOPIC Open Action items
[17:05] <Mithrandir> you need the []-s around
[17:05] <Mithrandir> so I'll follow up on that next week when the world has calmed down a bit
[17:05] <davidm> [TOPIC] Open Action items from last week
[17:05] <MootBot> New Topic:  Open Action items from last week 
[17:06] <davidm> private builds: tfheen to get download area for proprietary builds set up. Is still open.
[17:06] <lool> Next in turn is me; well update didn't go terribly well as the new upstream releases brought many many changes and I had no proper test environment
[17:06] <bspencer_> lool started pulling patches from our 0.0.43 hildon-desktop git.   In the end Intel wasn't able to verify the new changes on the ubuntu branch of hildon-desktop so we decided to stick with what was there and not risk the upgrade.
[17:06] <Mithrandir> davidm: give me an action item again so it doesn't fall off the agenda?
[17:06] <lool> I do have proper test environments now and should look at the current issues with hildon-desktop this coming week
[17:07] <bspencer_> no fault of lool.  Intel was late in providing the changes, etc.  
[17:07] <davidm> Yes, [Action] private builds: tfheen to get download area for proprietary builds set up.
[17:07] <bspencer_> so the update to hildon-desktop comes in the next gutsy update
[17:07] <davidm> [Action] private builds: tfheen to get download area for proprietary builds set up.
[17:07] <Mithrandir> I think you need to do [ACTION] at the start of the line
[17:07] <MootBot> ACTION received:  private builds: tfheen to get download area for proprietary builds set up. 
[17:07] <bspencer_> lool, thanks for your help.
[17:07] <lool> haha Mithrandir :)
[17:07] <lool> bspencer_: Thanks to you too; I think we both tried equally hard and were both very confused
[17:08] <bspencer_> mjg59, did update hildon-desktop with some small changes at the last minute to get the brightness and volume controls into statusbar.conf
[17:08] <davidm> So is the action lool will look at the current issues with hildon-desktop this coming week?
[17:08] <Mithrandir> bspencer_: would it be possible for you guys to directly push changes into the bzr branch rather than what you do now where you have a git tree which nobody is entirely sure where is branched off from?
[17:08] <lool> I'm afraid the update was too big too close to the release; but then I read that hildon-desktop saw a major rewrite in Hildon 2, so no surprize
[17:08] <lool> davidm: Yes
[17:08] <davidm> [action] lool will look at the current issues with hildon-desktop this coming week?
[17:08] <MootBot> ACTION received:  lool will look at the current issues with hildon-desktop this coming week? 
[17:08] <bspencer_> davidm, Intel should verify the ubuntu branch works and suggest changes.
[17:08] <bspencer_> Mithrandir, yes.  We can update the ubuntu brach directly
[17:09] <davidm> [action] Intel should verify the ubuntu branch works and suggest changes.
[17:09] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Intel should verify the ubuntu branch works and suggest changes. 
[17:09] <bspencer_> s/suggest/make
[17:09] <bspencer_> > bspencer and ToddBrandt to sync up on what components from Todd should be uploaded to gutsy
[17:09] <agoliveira> I think that lool will have work for more time than that just with this item :) Hildon is going over a major makeove AFAIK.
[17:09] <bspencer_> we did that.   We took out the software keyboard config for gutsy release
[17:10] <bfiller> bspencer_: was there any resolution to the problem of other packages modifying hildon-desktop conf files?
[17:10] <bspencer_> agoliveira, really?  I haven't heard about that.
[17:10] <lool> agoliveira: i expect to devote more time to mobile stuff now that the release is out (except for a couple of SRUs in progress), but I have some low priority stuff to do in case I'm bored :)
[17:10] <bspencer_> bfiller, some discussion
[17:10] <bspencer_> bfiller, lucasr did show me a way to get statusbar items automaticlaly included
[17:11] <lool> In general, many upstream modules must have been updated for Hildon 2
[17:11] <davidm> bspencer_ do you want an action item on the "bspencer and ToddBrandt to sync up"
[17:11] <bspencer_> but no consensus on how to remove the configuration items from the hildon-desktop pkg.
[17:11] <lool> So we should probably upload all our modules; this is a pre-requisite to send our fixes anyway
[17:11] <bspencer_> davidm, no.  We finished that
[17:11] <davidm> K
[17:11] <bspencer_> bfiller, anything else about that?
[17:11] <lool> Err s/upload/update, sorry
[17:12] <davidm> [topic] TODO for gutsy
[17:12] <MootBot> New Topic:  TODO for gutsy 
[17:12] <bspencer_> davidm, nice timing :)
[17:12] <bspencer_> > Peter_u3 to talk to telepathy upstream about new libtelepathy.
[17:12] <smagoun> bspencer_: I know bfiller was interested in the status of the patches he sent you
[17:12] <bfiller> bspencer_: so do marquee_plugins and moblin-applets no longer directly modify the conf files in the postinst?
[17:12] <davidm> little slow sorry, I'll edit it later
[17:13] <Peter_home> bspencer, Mithrandir, davidm, ok.
[17:13] <bspencer_> bfiller, I don't know if marquee-plugins ever did that.  Maybe they did and I wasn't aware.  
[17:13] <bspencer_> but there is no resolution
[17:13] <bspencer_> [Action] bspencer to resolve issue with hildon-desktop configuration files and separate packages
[17:13] <Peter_home> I talked with Rob and Empathy author and they both told me the upgrade from 0.0.55 to 0.2 is safe
[17:13] <mjg59> bfiller: They no longer do
[17:14] <bfiller> mjg59, bspencer_ : ok, thanks
[17:14] <bspencer_> [action] bspencer to resolve issue with hildon-desktop configuration files and separate packages
[17:14] <bspencer_> .... ? :)
[17:14] <davidm> [action] bspencer to resolve issue with hildon-desktop configuration files and separate packages
[17:14] <MootBot> ACTION received:  bspencer to resolve issue with hildon-desktop configuration files and separate packages 
[17:15] <bspencer_> thx.
[17:15] <davidm> I have to do that as the meeting chair....
[17:15] <bspencer_> got it
[17:15]  * bspencer_ feels less powerful
[17:15] <davidm> But that makes it easy for me to cut and paste :-)
[17:15] <bspencer_> Peter_home, thanks for the update.  
[17:15] <davidm> so feel free to do that Please...
[17:15] <bspencer_> davidm, that is all the todo items for me.
[17:16] <davidm> OK
[17:16] <davidm> [topic] current items
[17:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  current items 
[17:16] <davidm> I don't have any on the web page in the wiki, does anyone have some?
[17:17] <bspencer_> davidm, update your page
[17:17]  * agoliveira added one and Mithrandir too...
[17:17] <davidm> [TOPIC] Pre-Alpha status (tfheen)
[17:17] <MootBot> New Topic:  Pre-Alpha status (tfheen) 
[17:17] <lool> davidm: There are two now
[17:17] <Mithrandir> I guess it makes sense to talk a little bit about current state.
[17:17] <davidm> got it, my autoupdate failed ;-(
[17:18] <davidm> I agree
[17:18] <Mithrandir> calculator, media player, pim, chat and flash player are in (in some form)
[17:18] <Mithrandir> I think we have the games in as well, but they're useless due to missing 3D at least on menlow
[17:19]  * agoliveira agrees
[17:19] <bspencer_> Mithrandir, "are in"  but far from complete, if even usable.  
[17:19] <bspencer_> (did claws hildon make it in?  I tried it but didn't see the hildon version )
[17:19] <Mithrandir> bspencer_: they were alpha deliverables from your end, so we don't expect them to be polished at all.
[17:19] <bspencer_> Mithrandir, I like the "at all" part.  We hope to improve them significantly
[17:20] <bspencer_> cheeze is also there and hildonized.
[17:20] <rustyl> bspencer, Mithrandir ... i'm running late today
[17:20] <kyleN> just noting the suggestions smagoun made on the list respecting modifying email UI to make it palatable
[17:20] <agoliveira> bspencer_: Latest Claws wasn't uploaded due the release.
[17:21] <bspencer_> kyleN, yes.  those were great.  much improvement!  should they be claws-based ?   who can own it... we should chat about this somewhere/sometime
[17:21] <agoliveira> kyleN: This is a *very* long discussion
[17:21] <bfiller> bspencer_: maybe a session at UDS is in order?
[17:21] <kyleN> yes, such changes are big but probably essential
[17:21] <Mithrandir> I'm less happy about the test plan though, or lack thereof.
[17:21] <agoliveira> +1
[17:22] <bfiller> bspencer_: we have lots of ideas and some rough specs that could be used as a discussion point
[17:22] <bspencer_> bfiller, UDS?
[17:22] <Mithrandir> Ubuntu Development Summit
[17:22] <mfrey> bspencer: yes
[17:22] <kyleN> i'd like to suggest that adding an app to core is not just hildonizing it, but also involves modifying the UI in ways as yet to be determined
[17:22] <agoliveira> "in ways as yet to be determined" is the key
[17:23] <bspencer_> kyleN, right.  I was discussing this same topic here yesterday
[17:23] <kyleN> yes, appropriate for a small form factor screen and possibly gesture enabled etc
[17:23] <bfiller> bspencer_: any Intel guys attending UDS?
[17:23] <bspencer_> we can all recognize that our apps are ad hoc at this point and need much love and a joining of hands for look/feel and usability
[17:24] <bspencer_> Mithrandir, do you want to chat about the test plan?
[17:24] <kyleN> love is good
[17:24] <agoliveira> bspencer_: I'm all for it.
[17:24] <Mithrandir> bspencer_: unsure if we should do it in-meeting or not
[17:24] <kyleN> this needs to be formalized a a requirement somehow
[17:24] <agoliveira> The question is that if we divert too much from what hildon does, we might as well (have to?) trash hildon and use something else.
[17:25] <agoliveira> I think we should discuss this at UDS.
[17:25] <agoliveira> Make that "have to"
[17:25] <bspencer_> an action item to do so would be good
[17:25] <bspencer_> (test plan)
[17:25] <davidm> bspencer_ action item for test plan or UI issues?
[17:26] <bspencer_> both... start with the test plan
[17:26] <mawhalen> irc://logicsbox.jf.intel.com:6665/umd
[17:26] <bspencer_> for UI, there are multiple topics to discuss
[17:26] <bspencer_> mawhalen, wrong channel ?
[17:26] <mawhalen> sorry -
[17:26] <bspencer_> :)
[17:26] <davidm> [action] Review test place at UDS
[17:26] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Review test place at UDS 
[17:26] <bspencer_> UI:   ownership, how to get a higher quality of usabilty and consistency, process
[17:27] <davidm> [action] Review UI issues at UDS
[17:27] <MootBot> ACTION received:  Review UI issues at UDS 
[17:27] <bspencer_> s/UI/ Apps 
[17:27]  * agoliveira gets dizzy just with the implications...
[17:27] <lool> davidm: Ah, reminds me I would like to know what I should bring to UDS; I'd prefer not bringing the Q1U unless it's really useful
[17:27] <smagoun> I think someone should have a UI plan going into UDS. It will be much more effective that way
[17:27] <davidm> I have created some items for UDS and both are already on my list
[17:28] <bspencer_> agoliveira, I don't (yet) think we need to separate from hildon.  We can get very nice looking system with the hildon framework.
[17:28] <lool> (Because I'll have lots of packages already and I fear losing it or breaking it or agoliveira pushing me in the stairs)
[17:28] <davidm> I am planning on bringing my Q1 and my Crown Beach since it's quite easy for me to move things around in the US.
[17:28] <Mithrandir> ok, move on then?
[17:28] <davidm> sure
[17:28] <bfiller> bspencer_: I agree. Don't think hildon is the problem
[17:28] <davidm> [Topic] Intel participation on UDS (agoliveira)
[17:28] <MootBot> New Topic:  Intel participation on UDS (agoliveira) 
[17:29] <agoliveira> That's me...
[17:29] <bspencer_> HappyCamp, will be there (John V)
[17:29] <bspencer_> and Dan Johnson
[17:29] <bspencer_> (I believe)
[17:29] <bspencer_> s/Dan/Don
[17:29] <agoliveira> We kind of treated about this already. Following the UI issues, I would like to know who/when the Intel guys will be around so we can talk about it.
[17:29] <bspencer_> (oops)
[17:29] <davidm> s/Dan/Don/
[17:30] <bspencer_> Don_Johnson  ping
[17:30] <bspencer_> as a family man I'm just disappointed that I can't go trick-or-treating with my kids, a much anticipated activity
[17:30] <bspencer_> but I will be there too
[17:30] <Don_Johnson> Yes I'm here and will be attending UDS. I plan on putting together some test plan proposals to bring with me.
[17:30] <bspencer_> rustyl, won't, I think he has a conflict
[17:30] <agoliveira> bspencer_: I have my wife *and* daugter birthdays during this period so stop complaining :)
[17:31] <bspencer_> agoliveira, my condolences
[17:31] <rustyl> i do have a conflict
[17:31] <rustyl> so I will not be able to make UDS
[17:31] <davidm> rustyl, is there any chance you can attend part of it?
[17:32] <davidm> I have heard from my team that your presence is very important.
[17:32] <davidm> Even if you can only make a day or two I can schedule items around it
[17:32]  * agoliveira looks the other way, humming a song...
[17:32] <kyleN> we need to write up expected USB client capacities for a customer. Is this covered anywhere?
[17:33] <agoliveira> Am I still connected?
[17:34] <bspencer_> davidm, rustyl   sync?
[17:34] <agoliveira> Yes
[17:34] <kyleN> exposing local folder to syncing, internet connection sharing. is the status of this final?
[17:34] <davidm> agoliveira yes you are connected
[17:34] <bspencer_> rustyl, you can't make any part of UDS?
[17:34] <rustyl> let me review the dates again
[17:34] <bspencer_> rustyl, get your priorities straight man!  UDS is where the action is.
[17:35] <agoliveira> s/action/geeks + beer
[17:35] <kyleN> sorry if I'm off topic, but I need to know 
[17:36] <davidm> kyleN if you add it to the wiki I'll make sure to cover it.
[17:36] <bspencer_> davidm, agoliveira ... that's all we have for UDS that I know of.  3 people:  Don, JohnV, Bob
[17:36] <davidm> OK
[17:36] <kyleN> not sure which wiki you are referring to
[17:36] <davidm> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/Meeting/20071018
[17:37] <kyleN> thx
[17:37] <Peter_home> agoliveira, you should suggest UDS held on that beach.
[17:37] <davidm> OK, are we done with UDS attendance?
[17:37] <agoliveira> Peter_home: I'll, believe me :)
[17:37] <agoliveira> davidm: I guess so
[17:38] <davidm> if so is the next topic Application development and upstream (bspencer)?
[17:38] <bspencer_> yes
[17:38] <davidm> [topic] Application development and upstream (bspencer)
[17:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  Application development and upstream (bspencer) 
[17:38] <bspencer_> we covered some of this and it is a larger UDS topic probably
[17:38] <bspencer_> but I wanted to discuss how to do significant app development on upstream projects
[17:38] <bspencer_> for example, pushing up a patch at a time to claws email will not result in the UI that was sent out earlier
[17:39] <bspencer_> (from pepper guys, can't remember who sent it)
[17:39] <bspencer_> so it may need to be done in bigger chunks
[17:39] <smagoun> bspencer_: that was me, I have more where that came rom
[17:39] <bspencer_> with a temporary repository and ownership while these big changes are going on.
[17:39] <bspencer_> smagoun, nice
[17:40] <bfiller> bspencer_: note, Pepper guys are now Canonical guys  ;) 
[17:40] <bspencer_> I know that we continually come back to not wanting to fork, so I think we have to agree on a balance
[17:40] <agoliveira> bspencer_ PPAs can be used for that
[17:40] <bspencer_> bfiller, ok... but you are a category :)
[17:40] <bfiller> bspencer_: indeed
[17:41] <bspencer_> I think for the key apps like email, chat, etc., it requires that we have a central hildon-specfic repo
[17:41] <lool> When the changes are larger though, we must make sure we don't keep a burden of merging them after each new upstream release for too long
[17:41] <smagoun> since changing claws to look like the mockup is a big piece of work, what about leveraging upstream to do that work?
[17:41] <bspencer_> agoliveira, PPAs... I'll have to familiarize myself with how these can work.
[17:41] <kyleN> added my action item to the wiki
[17:41] <agoliveira> smagoun: I don't think that would work.
[17:41] <bspencer_> smagoun, that is a good idea, but we have to be clear on the final product request
[17:42] <lool> bspencer_: Distribution and source management is not a problem while implementing the changes IMO; the issue is long term maintenance
[17:42] <bspencer_> so we have something that looks like the other applications
[17:42] <smagoun> bspencer_:  we have that problem anyway, even if intel or canonical is doing the work :)
[17:42] <bspencer_> lool, agreed.  
[17:42] <lool> If you fork claws and make that claws-hildon, then you have to maintain that fork forever ... or be dropped  :-/
[17:43] <bspencer_> lool, true.  You have to continually resync with upstream's new additions as they make things you want
[17:43] <Mithrandir> which is a reason for us to prefer upstream projects which are GNOME ones, since hildon is one of the GNOME Mobile widget thingies
[17:43] <lool> Perhaps we can convince upstream claws folks to have two flavors of the interface in their own tree and to start direct distribution of these two flavors upstream
[17:43] <bspencer_> lool, it works if you have write access to the hildon repository
[17:44] <bspencer_> in the short term that may not be possible thogh
[17:44] <lool> For example some webapp projects have a web and a wap interface (don't laugh), we could sell them that they will soon be popular on N800 and MID devices :)
[17:44] <agoliveira> Looks like this is another item for UDS.
[17:44] <lool> bspencer_: I think we're talking of upstream apps here, not hildon
[17:44] <lool> bspencer_: Or do you mean the Nokia maemo archive upload rights?
[17:44] <bspencer_> lool, I mean tthe hildon-version of claws, for example
[17:45] <davidm> [action] further discussion of Application development and upstream at UDS
[17:45] <MootBot> ACTION received:  further discussion of Application development and upstream at UDS 
[17:45] <lool> bspencer_: Yeah, and it takes some time to gain enough trust to achieve this
[17:45] <bspencer_> lool, right.  OK.  UDS it is.
[17:45] <bspencer_> thanks davidm 
[17:45] <Peter_home> lool, if most changes are UI specific, I don't think so. Considering maemo garage have many many hildon UI apps hosted rather than hosted in upstream apps
[17:46] <lool> We might also need to think of "corrupting" them properly; selling the idea /fast/ might include organizing in person meetings, blogging with screenshots, or sending them a device to hack on it themselves too; random ideas...
[17:46] <davidm> I have to say where possible we really want upstream to take the changes so we don't maintain a fork forever.
[17:46] <lool> Peter_home: I think there's a specificity here in that we need exact sync between upstream's releases and hildonized releases
[17:46] <bspencer_> lool, good ideas.  Still, for the big 5-6 apps, I think someone who has a lot of skin in the game may need to own them "forever"
[17:47] <bspencer_> meaning, continue to make sure they are picture-perfect and bug free
[17:47] <lool> Peter_home: Say, a new release of claws comes out, the hildonization patch doesn't apply anymore, we might not be able to delay it until someone appears to update it
[17:47] <lool> Or we update it ourselves, but then we're upstream of the "delta" and potentially investing large chunks of times forever
[17:48] <lool> bspencer_: Oh I agree
[17:48] <davidm> bspencer, no matter what someone with skin in the game is going to have to own them but if the changes are upstream there is less work involved in the ownership
[17:48] <Peter_home> lool,IMHO, sync seems not avoidable. We have to sync by maintainers for hildon UI version
[17:48] <lool> bspencer_: It makes sense to have an owned code base for some key apps or for some themes etc.
[17:48] <lool> bspencer_: But the less, the better
[17:48] <bspencer_> it is a balance between a distribution (who doesn't want to own any apps) and a company making the end product where everything is supported by them
[17:48] <Peter_home> lool, agree, less, better
[17:48] <mfrey> don't you think upstream would welcome changes to the apps that make them "killer" on a mobile device
[17:48] <lool> Peter_home: I didn't get your previous remark
[17:49] <agoliveira> Unless we have resurces enough to just fork it and have our way.
[17:49] <lool> davidm: I fully agree with your remark: if the changes are close together, the maintenance burden for two versions is smaller
[17:49] <smagoun> agoliveira: we don't, unless bspencer_ or rustyl can come up with some cash?
[17:49] <davidm> mfrey, possibly if they see the value, but that becomes part of our job to try and help them to see the value in taking the patches
[17:49] <agoliveira> smagoun: Exactly :)
[17:49] <bspencer_> smagoun, let me check my pockets
[17:50] <lool> smagoun: Sounds good!
[17:50] <bspencer_> ok.  thakns for the brain dumping.  More at UDS.
[17:50] <Peter_home> lool, I mean, for a few key apps for MID, we really have to have a specific version and sync with upstream by ourself. like many projects on garage.
[17:50] <lool> Peter_home: Ack; but then we still need to identify an upstream for them too
[17:50] <bfiller> bspencer_: Nokia walks this line between owning and distrubuting..
[17:50] <bspencer_> Nokia core apps are Nokia owned, true?  Browser for example
[17:51] <smagoun> bspencer_: yes
[17:51] <bfiller> bspencer_: Skype is another example. Nokia made the "hildon" mods and is maintaining it
[17:52] <davidm> bfiller, did they or did they pay skype to make the changes for them?
[17:52] <Peter_home> lool, yes, if have to, let's do it now. Actually we have a good start point for those already in gutsy .
[17:52] <lool> Again, we're in a slightly different situation in the way we handle hildonization right now: we mod packages for the lpia architecture, but we expect to do uploads for all architectures at once
[17:52] <amitk> davidm: Skype did not do it
[17:52] <bfiller> davidm: good question, I'm not sure. But I know it's propiertary
[17:52] <lool> This is an organizational choice, and there are solutions, but this has a direct impact in the way we maintain things
[17:53] <bspencer_> I just want a clear path to a professional looking result
[17:53] <bspencer_> instead of a collection of open source apps
[17:54] <Peter_home> bspencer_, yes, good point, totally agree. 
[17:54] <lool> Peter_home: But who?  Proving its possible is an achievement, but when people move on to $next_project, who will continue maintenance?
[17:54] <bfiller> bspencer_: paying customers will demand that (prof looking results that is)
[17:54] <smagoun> bspencer_: we're with you - my group at canonical *needs* those professional apps
[17:54] <bspencer_> </app dev>
[17:55] <Peter_home> lool, MID is a category existing for a long time, just like phone, from my point.
[17:55] <agoliveira> Unless we fork, I see a hard time ahead trying to convince upstream to include the necessary changes.
[17:56] <Peter_home> lool, what agoliveira said is also a key fact. If only UI changes, it's difficut to persuit
[17:56] <davidm> I don't see us solving this today, further conversations at UDS and elsewhere are going to be needed I think.
[17:56] <bspencer_> I'd like to propose we go to next agenda.  We can discuss more online and at UDS.
[17:56] <agoliveira> +1
[17:56] <davidm> Done
[17:56] <bspencer_> :)
[17:56] <davidm> [topic] Expected USB Client functionality for customer (kyle)
[17:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  Expected USB Client functionality for customer (kyle) 
[17:57] <kyleN> my main question is what is the committed USB client functionality, capacities we know we will have and can be communicated to a customer now. is it written up?  1) Are the syncing issues resolved (how is the mid's ext3 file system exposed to a fat file system)? 2) is connecting sharing actually gong to happen. Is the software already in place? Etc.
[17:57] <agoliveira> Ctrl+V :)
[17:57] <kyleN> ;)
[17:57] <Peter_home> lool, actually a example for moblin-chat, I have sent my patches to empathy author and his feedback is keeping this branch in molin site
[17:57] <bspencer_> rustyl, ping  do you have an update?
[17:57]  * rustyl catches up
[17:58] <bspencer_> rustyl, about usb client status, plan.
[17:58] <rustyl> bspencer, just what i saw in the email to the ubuntu-mobile mailing list
[17:58] <lool> Peter_home: We should discuss this IRL
[17:58] <bspencer_> rustyl, who (what person) owns usb client ?  
[17:59] <rustyl> bspencer, that would be Don_Johnson 
[17:59] <Peter_home> lool, sorry , what's IRL? 
[17:59] <lool> Peter_home: I totally agree it's achievable technically to maintain forks and a good way to reach high quality; my problem is sustainability and maintenance
[17:59] <lool> Peter_home: In Real Life (tm)
[17:59] <bspencer_> ah.  Don_Johnson can you comment on kyleN 's qustion above?
[17:59] <Don_Johnson> I own reporting status.  I'll have to check and get back to kyleN with an answer
[18:00] <kyleN> Don_Johnson: thanks. I'll look forward to it
[18:00] <bspencer_> kyleN, sorry :)
[18:00] <rustyl> Don_Johnson, wasn't this covered in the blueprint?
[18:00] <amitk> lool: in real life somebody pays for maintaining a fork :)
[18:00] <rustyl> Don_Johnson, that is... the capabilities of the hardware
[18:00] <bspencer_> kyleN, but I also had a couple guys look into basic media syncing.
[18:00] <davidm> OK, on to the next topic
[18:00] <bspencer_> kind of related.  I'll send you a status too (to the list)
[18:01] <davidm> [topic] Organize the next meetings as we will be at UDS/AllHands (agoliveira). 
[18:01] <MootBot> New Topic:  Organize the next meetings as we will be at UDS/AllHands (agoliveira).  
[18:01] <Don_Johnson> I'll have to check.  This is one of the rough spots in taking over for Charlie
[18:01] <lool> amitk: Exactly, you're more direct than me
[18:01] <smagoun> Don_Johnson: did Charlie leave?
[18:01] <davidm> A lot of my team will be traveling to UDS this time next week
[18:01] <agoliveira> Self explanatory, I guess :)
[18:01] <agoliveira> and there's allhands the other
[18:01] <Peter_home> lool, I understand your concern. But reality is that we might have to maintain a fork it it's UI specific changes only. Anyway, case by case, if one app changes can be accpeted by upstream, that's best.
[18:01] <Don_Johnson> Charlie isn't on today.  But he is still available.
[18:02] <bfiller> davidm: isn't UDS the week of Oct 29th, not next week?
[18:02] <agoliveira> bfiller: Yes but many of us are leaving on thursday 
[18:02] <davidm> Yes, but we arrive on Friday  next week at the hotel and some folks have to start traveling on Thursday
[18:02] <agoliveira> We're supposed to be there on friday
[18:02] <bfiller> agoliveira: ahh
[18:02] <agoliveira> (there's an event on the weekend too)
[18:03] <Mithrandir> and Thursday is a day off for the entire distro team.
[18:03] <agoliveira> That too.
[18:04] <bspencer_> so no meeting for 2wks
[18:04] <agoliveira> So what to do with the next 3 meetings?
[18:04] <smagoun> agoliveira:  drink beer?
[18:04] <agoliveira> (4 to me as I'll be on vacation :) )
[18:04] <kyleN> +1 smagoun
[18:04] <agoliveira> smagoun: On the 4th, absolutely
[18:04] <davidm> Assuming that we can get connectivity at UDS can we have a meeting from there I wonder?
[18:05] <Mithrandir> davidm: we will have connectivity at UDS.
[18:05] <agoliveira> davidm: If we're not in a meeting already, which I doubt, of course.
[18:05] <Mithrandir> we could have it, but I'd rather have an in-person status meeting with whoever is present.
[18:05] <agoliveira> +1
[18:05] <lool> davidm: +1
[18:05] <davidm> I agree, which is why I've been pushing for more people to attend.
[18:06] <davidm> :-)
[18:06] <agoliveira> At the AllHands we will be in a session at thet time too IIRC
[18:06] <davidm> [action] davidm to look into what and and how to have status meetings
[18:06] <MootBot> ACTION received:  davidm to look into what and and how to have status meetings 
[18:07] <bspencer_> davidm, at least force us all to send a weekly status next week.
[18:07] <lool> We could move the meeting time I guess
[18:07] <bspencer_> lool, :-O !
[18:07] <davidm> I'll respond in email to the list I'm too new to know yet.
[18:07] <agoliveira> Cool
[18:07] <davidm> So give me a day or so to figure this out.
[18:08] <davidm> OK I don't see any more topics on the Wiki
[18:08] <davidm> Are we done?
[18:08] <Peter_home> davidm, next UDS we might use a MID with WiMax and have meeting IIRC using that.
[18:08] <davidm> There ya go
[18:08] <agoliveira> \o/
[18:09] <Mithrandir> davidm: Don_Johnson probably needs an action item for the USB client thing?
[18:09] <Mithrandir> Peter_home: using IP over flying pigs! :-)
[18:09] <davidm> [action]  Don_Johnson to investigate  USB client issues.
[18:09] <MootBot> ACTION received:   Don_Johnson to investigate  USB client issues. 
[18:10] <davidm> #endmeeting
[18:10] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:10.
[18:10] <agoliveira> and running hurd to play duke nuken forever :)
[18:10] <Peter_home> Mithrandir, :). But I don't understand what you mean by "using IP over flying pigs". :(
[18:13] <Sciri> Peter_home: I believe Mithrandir is referring to a new IP spec based on RFC 2549: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2549.html
[18:14] <Peter_home> Sciri, Mithrandir, so cool. 
[18:14] <Sciri> ;)
[18:22] <agoliveira> Macadamia Nut Brittle... hmmmm.... :>)
[18:53]  * agoliveira is trying to download the last daily but cdimages.u.c is really slow...guess why...
[20:55] <apple2> I 'd like to ask suihkulokki how has he made bluez work under debian
[20:59] <suihkulokki> apple2: bluez needs a firmware
[20:59] <apple2> yes thats what ot sings for
[21:00] <apple2> so is there a way?
[21:00] <suihkulokki> apple2: the firmware should be under /mnt/initfs/somewhere
[21:01] <apple2> I think I have lots of things there
[21:03] <apple2> yes /mnt/initfs is the same as in maemo 
[21:03] <suihkulokki> so you need to make symlinks from /usr/lib/hotplug/firmware to /mnt/initfs/usr/lib/hotplug/firmware 
[21:03] <apple2> thank you very much :)
[21:03] <apple2> that was useful
[21:03] <apple2> I ll try in a minute
[21:16] <apple2___> suihkulokki bluetooth is working now
[21:16] <apple2___> :)
[21:16] <apple2___> that was cool thank you, man
[21:17] <apple2___> I copied the firmware files for sure
[21:25] <suihkulokki> apple2___: what's the names of the fw files on the 770?
[21:25] <suihkulokki> apple2___: and very cool that it works :) 
[21:25] <apple2___> yes
[21:26] <apple2___> the fw files
[21:26] <apple2___> are
[21:26] <apple2___> 3825.arm  3826.arm  brf6150fw.bin  mtlm3825.arm  mtlm3826.arm
[21:26] <apple2___> i dont know which one what is for
[21:27] <suihkulokki> the brf one is bluetooth
[21:27] <apple2___> there arent more .bin files
[21:28] <apple2___> and by the way I still have no wifi and sound
[21:28] <suihkulokki> 3825 and 3826 are the wlan chips, i think the mtlm versions are for some special usage
[21:29] <apple2___> thanks for the  info
[21:29] <apple2___> some ideas about wifi?
[21:29] <suihkulokki> maybe we should for a own irc channel for n800/770 before we get kicked from here ;)
[21:29] <apple2___> ou yes
[21:30] <apple2___> I'm a newbie in irc
[21:30] <apple2___> sorry