pcjc2I've got 945GM here, and haven't seen it... although have seen a few lockups resuming from suspend. (Which I'd attributed to doing testing on new driver patches)00:02
bdmurraypcjc2: I tried it with glxgears running and had no problem00:12
bdmurrayHowever, suspend is tough to test on my system as I can only do it 1x00:12
pcjc2I'm sure this X11 testing is doing no favours for my HDD's power off retract count00:15
pcjc2(they don't like being hard-powered off too many times)00:16
bdmurrayYou can't even use sysrq?00:17
pcjc2is that built in by default on Gutsy kernels?00:18
pcjc2I've never made it work on either of the laptops I've had00:18
bdmurrayIt works for me, just reaching all the keys is hard00:19
pcjc2Figured it might be because its not got a native Sysrq key... its FN + delete  (its been so long since I used it, I've forgotten what the magic key combo is)00:19
bdmurrayCtrl+Alt+SysRq then U for umount S for sync and B for boot00:19
bdmurrayor really maybe B for reBoot00:19
pcjc2It won't work for most of the intel crashes anyhow...00:19
pcjc2the graphics chip physically hard locks the machine00:20
pcjc2when you poke a register which isn't enabled. It seems that many register writes are locked into a hardware state machine which is clocked of one of the various internal video clocks. If you program such a register with the clock off / unstable, it can hang the chip00:21
pcjc2ok, so the key combo works ;)00:21
pcjc2oops... thats one FN key away from Ctrl-alt-del00:24
pcjc2Bryce: Does opengl play nice with compiz in general?00:31
pcjc2A screenshot running glxgears... http://www2.eng.cam.ac.uk/~pcjc2/Screenshot.png00:32
brycepcjc2: yes it should00:32
bryceI think many bugs harbor there tho00:32
pcjc2it doesn't "expose" (I know that's not technically what it does) the window underneath00:32
pcjc2so if I drag the GL window around, it leaves prints00:32
pcjc2I'm trying to go back to basics on the 855 bug, and understand how windows get from applications to the screen with compiz00:33
pcjc2Rendering via GL textures, so does a GL bug mean a compiz bug?00:34
bryceI don't know enough about compiz internals to say, but it seems that there's not a 1:1 relationship there00:34
pcjc2I started to read up about how it works, and got lost very quickly00:35
bryceAmaranth and mvo are good contact points for it00:35
pcjc2its bad enough with the one physical intel chip,  AGP drivers for the bridge device, DRM drivers, X11 graphics drivers, Mesa DRI Libraries .... framebuffer drivers... 00:36
bryceyeah it's another area where I need better education.  Since mvo, Amaranth and others seemed to have it under control, I ended up mostly focusing on other areas of X.00:36
brycebut we have a number of underlying issues that need solving at the X level00:37
pcjc2Gutsy is going to be a bad trip for people with Intel hardware unless some fixes can get backported00:37
pcjc2Hopefully (ever the optimist) the newer Xorg and drivers in Hardy will be more stable00:38
bryceyeah, I'm a bit worried about this too00:39
bryceI think we should shoot for getting a fixed up new -intel out in -updates00:40
pcjc2Jesse Barnes was going to read up some 855 docs for me.. but I've not heard back00:40
pcjc2On a personal note, I'm annoyed.. I've not used compiz until recently, and I discovered the electronic cad software I'm a contributor for (gEDA) really really breaks redrawing with compiz00:41
pcjc2(gEDA has a rubbish "canvas", and I'm _trying_ to fix it, but still)00:41
bryceyou might want to follow up with Jesse again in a few days; he is great at answering questions but I think he has many distractions so doesn't always follow up on things00:44
pcjc2I'm keen to get hands on some 855 hardware, I'll keep asking around if anyone has any00:45
brycepcjc2: one thing I think we should do is compile a listing of the worst -intel bugs, perhaps with commentary about the seriousness of the issue and/or what's needed to fix them00:45
bryceI talked with shuttleworth about -intel and he said we have good high-up connections with Intel, and they really want to make their hardware solid with Ubuntu, so I think if we got a good way to summarize the main issues we need help with, I might be able to work on it from a top-down direction in Intel00:46
pcjc2sounds good00:46
pcjc2Keith Packard has been fairly helpful answer questions00:46
pcjc2he even told me he's "working on" getting some docs which mortals without NDA can have00:47
* bryce nods00:47
jcristauhe's been saying that for a while :)00:48
brycehe's been working on that for quite some time though; I don't know how soon we can expect to see them00:48
pcjc2Reading between the lines00:48
pcjc2KP: "00:49
pcjc2We don't have any documentation available for publication at this point,00:49
pcjc2although I am trying to make this happen."00:49
pcjc2The documentation details too many bugs / workarounds / technical details we don't want to release for scrutiny. I'm fighting internal politics"00:49
pcjc2(The latter being my reading of the former)00:49
brycemm, I doubt it's that00:50
jcristaui'm sure internal politics are part of it :)00:50
bryceno I mean, I doubt it's that the docs describe too many bugs / workarounds00:51
pcjc2Its kindof come to my realisation that graphics drivers make or break the product00:51
brycecertainly internal politics can be expected here; I think he's said as much00:51
brycebut I think it's more about worry about exposing "crown jewels" or opening the company to litigation, enabling competitors, etc.00:52
pcjc2I've found some datasheets they do publish very very useful for debugging (e.g. this cruddy HP laptop BIOS)00:52
bryceultimately I suspect the issue boils down to trying to identify a tangible benefit to the company, to offset the risks 00:52
pcjc2I guess00:53
pcjc2I wonder how hard it is to get an NDA... (or whether its sensible)00:53
bryceATI put out their stuff not because of goodwill or because they valued the community, but rather because if they hadn't, they were worried they'd lose some of their big corporate/government customers that were demanding availability of open source drivers in their bid requirements00:53
bryce(ATI/AMD was very clear on this point at XDS)00:54
pcjc2All companies are in it for the money00:56
pcjc2Even Canonical presumably has to make some ;)00:56
pcjc2(Dumb question... where are Canonical based (globally?)00:57
bryceUK basically00:58
bryceemployees are scattered hither and thither.  I'm in Portland Oregon00:58
pcjc2I thought UK, but didn't know why00:58
brycethe main offices and the data center are there in London00:59
brycemost of management is in england.00:59
brycethe official business address is Isle of Man00:59
pcjc2tax reasons probably ;)00:59
* bryce nods00:59
pcjc2I wonder if anyone has any 855 based hardware sitting available for testing (or do Canonical not have "central" hardware available for testing01:00
brycecanonical is for profit, but the business model centers around service rather than product sales01:00
pcjc2seems eminently sensible... shame we're all SuSE at the University01:00
bryceif you can do the testing remotely, we can probably get you hooked up with a machien with 855 in it01:00
pcjc2would much rather not have to package two sets of all the electronics packages we do!01:01
brycewhich uni?01:01
pcjc2I'll keep it in mind.. although really, I'd be wanting to watch the screen and poke with GDB01:01
pcjc2Cambridge, (sorry, assumed you'd see from my email address)01:01
brycewell, tell you what - Chris Jones, who reported bug 13311, is one of Canonical's system administrators01:02
ubotuLaunchpad bug 13311 in gftp "FTBFS: compile errors" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1331101:02
pcjc2I'm a 2nd yr Electronic Engineering student01:02
brycehe would be the key guy to get you access to an 855 machine, particularly if you would be working to get a fix for that bug01:02
bryceahh awesome01:02
pcjc2I chat to Matthew Garrett often (usually when I find a bug... its almost always some area he knows about ;), althoug 01:03
pcjc2h we've never met01:03
brycecambridge england or mass?01:03
bryceoh duh, nevermind :-)01:04
bryceI was at cambridge a few weeks ago myself for XDS01:04
pcjc2(England's same as Garrett). I'm a 2nd year PhD student working on marine renewables.. and secretly wondering if a job in programming would be better01:04
brycebeautiful town01:04
pcjc2I was kicking myself that I missed that. Saw the info on the xorg page, then saw it had already passed01:04
bryceyeah he's a huge resource01:04
bryceColin Watson (my supervisor) is also in the Cambridge area01:05
pcjc2so Canonical is quite distributed ;)01:05
pcjc2How did you come to Canonical? (If you're the same Bryce... you founded Inkscape?)01:06
bryceyup, that's I01:06
pcjc2cool (I'm not artistic, but Inkscape is a tool I keep handy for vector graphics)01:07
bryceI used to work for a company called OSDL in Portland, doing kernel and nfsv4 testing, and working on Inkscape and tinkering with X/Cairo on the side01:07
bryceKees Cook and Brian Murray also worked there with me01:07
pcjc2Do you do the VNC packages as part of X in Ubuntu?01:07
bryceKees was in IT there, but was much more interested in security work, and he was absolutely enamoured with ubuntu (brian and I were into gentoo at the time)01:07
pcjc2That was my first dive into the X code, trying to fix some horrid bugs in that. RealVNC were very unhelpful01:07
bryceso when a security position opened with canonical he went for it01:08
bryceI heard such good things that I converted to ubuntu as well, liked it, and also followed him over to Canonical01:08
bryceI haven't touched any of the VNC stuff myself01:08
bryceit's possible that's an area I need to get into, but haven't had any pulls to work on it so far01:09
pcjc2I wanted to setup thin clienting nicely, and got looking at the GDM work done by various people01:09
pcjc2Either using VNC + some extensions (hacks) to allow re-negotiation and hot swapping of the server after authentication..01:10
pcjc2hit lots of VNC bugs (mostly all solved, or worked around now), I looked at XDMX and various X forwarding (but got stuck with XLib insisting on aborting if the client disconnects uncleanly)01:11
pcjc2XCB was mentioned as a possible way around it, but in the end.. no time.01:12
* bryce nods01:14
brycehmm, when I was at OSDL we had a nice collection remotely accessible test machines that OS devs could log into and do stuff.  I wonder how hard it'd be for me to recreate that.01:16
pcjc2would have to have gutsy like environment01:18
pcjc2and a remote poking switch for when the GPU locks up01:18
pcjc2Unfortunately, its not really clear how to test this most effectivey... the machines are usable when they corrupt the display - just you have to guess where things are.01:19
bryceyeah, we had remotely addressable power control bars that worked wonderfully for restarting after kernel lockups01:19
brycealso since they were servers we had good serial consoles for capturing oops and the like01:19
brycebut not X so much01:19
pcjc2So without a webcam pointing at the screen, its probably not all that useful01:19
pcjc2Also... if you get nasty timings to an LCD panel, it can destroy it01:20
brycemmm, a webcam would be doable01:20
pcjc2many of the driver chips seem to have some protection in them, but I've managed to get this machine here into a state which I was very unhappy until I'd pulled the plug01:20
pcjc2(You get a creeping propogation of green across the LCD which seems more a manifestation of very bad drive signals to the LCD its self, rather than just display corruption).01:21
pcjc2Is Chris Jones based in London?01:25
bryceyeah i think so01:26
pcjc2ok, so if necessary, not too far away01:26
pcjc2I'm sure I'll be able to find some hardware01:26
bryceyup, hes in Catford Bridge, London01:26
pcjc2I already dug through a pile of old laptops here (mostly broken some way or other), and have been round obvious friends01:26
ubotuNew bug: #153782 in xorg (main) "[Gutsy] screen doesn't resume after suspend" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15378203:16
ubotuNew bug: #153797 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.22 (restricted) "Fails to resume when using Nvidia-glx or Nvidia-glx-new" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15379705:01
ubotuNew bug: #153818 in xorg (main) "Visual Effects can not be enabled on Santa Rosa" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15381811:32
ubotuNew bug: #153873 in xserver-xorg-driver-savage (main) "Freeze on visuals in Rhythmbox with savage drivver" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15387313:10
ubotuNew bug: #151439 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.22 (restricted) "Constant "banding" and other visual artifacts in gusty on nvidia GeForce 4 MX" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15143914:17
ubotuNew bug: #153936 in xserver-xorg-video-intel (main) "Bad screen size using external monitor" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15393616:16
ubotuNew bug: #118808 in linux-restricted-modules-2.6.22 "Unable to reach C3/C4 states while wireless is up." [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/11880817:16
pcjc2Question.... anyone know why the Intel X driver isn't appearing to see suspend events from ACPI?17:23
pcjc2It has a hook, but output I've added there doesn't print to the log17:23
ubotuNew bug: #153971 in xserver-xorg-video-ati (main) "Black Screen: Radeon X1300, Gutsy, AMD64, and fglrx." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15397117:35
pcjc2never mind... I see those are only had via APM, we don't have hooks for suspend / resume with ACPI17:36
ubotuNew bug: #153986 in xorg (main) "GL screensavers crash the X server" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15398618:25
tepsipakkibryce: morning? you've slept well, eh? :)19:07
bryceyup.  was up late triaging bugs last night19:08
bryceand a little docs writing19:08
ubotuNew bug: #154007 in xorg (main) "(bulletproofX) failsafe X doesn't work very well on my Thinkpad T61p laptop with an Nvidia chipset" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15400719:30
tepsipakkibryce: oh, didn't notice the post on the ml before19:50
tepsipakkiI'll check it out later19:50
bryceI hope it's not so long that no one reads it...  maybe it could be condensed better19:58
bryceQ-FUNK: I don't know if you're on the ubuntu-x@ list, but I posted a new "Bug Research Guide" doc to it this morning.  Love to get some feedback on it.20:24
Q-FUNKah, no, i'm not20:24
Q-FUNKhmm... is anybody here available for a short paying gig to upgrade -amd to sync with the current X core (including RandR 1.2)?20:28
bryceHave you thought about asking Alex Deucher?20:30
Q-FUNKyou think he could be interested?20:33
brycedunno, but it's possible20:42
brycehis day job is not X related, so I think he might like gigs to work on X stuff.  I think he's done it in the past20:43
brycein any case, he and Jesse are the two with the most experience adding xrandr 1.2 support to drivers20:43
bryceand jesse probably can't do it since he's working for Intel20:43
brycealex might prefer to wait until -ati 6.8 is out or something, but couldn't hurt to ask20:44
bryceheya tormod!20:44
brycetormod, I don't remember if you're on ubuntu-x but I posted a first draft of a 'Bug Research Guide' doc.  Would love to get feedback.20:47
bryceI'm planning on doing some major update of X resources on our wiki.20:47
brycewe didn't have much about how to research bugs, which is why I started there.20:47
tormodhi bryce! yes I saw the posting but didn't read in detail.21:08
bryceah, too long?21:08
tormodyes :)21:08
tormodI feel there's a need for a step-by-step guide for people submitting bugs.21:09
bryceI also have a "Reporting Bugs" section that precedes this one, but decided to post just this one for comments first, to avoid posting too much reading material at once21:10
tormodLike: we need to know what card: lspci -vvnn. Which driver (file right). log files. etc21:10
* bryce nods21:10
tormodI guess people actually triaging have good debugging knowledge anyway. But of course documentation is always good.21:11
bryceI break it down by problem class.  i.e., bad resolution bugs need these files, crashes need these, bad dpi issues need these, video playback need ...21:11
* tormod looks up that post21:11
bryceI'm thinking more about people who are new to triaging, to help them get up to speed21:12
jcristaufor pretty much everything you need config and log anyway; hence the stuff in /usr/share/bug.21:12
brycebut I want to make sure I have the right info (and not too much of it, that makes their eyes just glaze over *grin*)21:12
jcristauhi, congrats on the release btw :)21:12
bryceheya jcristau, thanks21:13
bryceyeah I thought about setting up a bittorrent to help with the bandwidth, but I couldn't even download the .torrent!21:13
tormodbryce, yeah I found your Bug Research a little word-heavy. started reading and thought: this is just common sense. then I see there are good pieces in there. But will people read it? :)21:15
tormodI don't want to sound discouraging :) 21:16
tormodwe really need a little check list for bug submitters, that pops up automatically when they file bugs on *xorg*21:18
tormodI am getting bored by asking the same questions when triaging bugs, even if I cut and paste.21:19
tormodlaunchpad should refuse bug reports without Xorg.0.log :)21:19
* bryce nods21:20
tepsipakkilaunchpad really should tell the reporter to attach those files, or could it do it on behalf of the reporter (like bug-buddy does)?21:27
brycemany of our bugs come initially filed against ubuntu, and triagers move them to xorg, so that wouldn't help21:28
bryceI've posted the list of required files/data I came up with21:46
tepsipakkilooks good21:48
tepsipakkialso, one of the first things upstream tends to ask people to test is disabling DRI21:49
tepsipakkimaybe that could be mentioned on the display corruption class?21:49
bryceor should I have a separate section (preliminary things to try out)?21:50
tepsipakkiperhaps yes21:50
bryceI'll do both21:50
tormodbryce: I wrote a Bugs page for ati once, now outdated: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/AtiDriver maybe there are some ideas22:06
ubotuNew bug: #40667 in xserver-xorg-video-trident (main) "Doesn't correctly support dpms" [Low,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/4066722:07
ubotuNew bug: #46796 in xserver-xorg-video-trident (main) "Totem-xine uses 100% cpu" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/4679622:07
tormodsuggestion re your new post: paste in lspci --vvnn|grep "VGA comp" and attach as file the output of lspci --vvnn22:09
immoT-Ubuntu gutsy xserver donesn't start (trident). No errors in log file.!22:11
tepsipakkiimmoT-: still no bug report ;)22:12
tormodhttp://wiki.debian.org/XStrikeForce is getting some nice documentation, for instance xrandr12 and debugging-server-crash. Maybe we should coordinate better the documentation between Debian and Ubuntu? Of course the launchpad and triaging stuff would be Ubuntu specific, but debugging and bug report contents would be the same.22:21
immoT-tepsipakki: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xserver-xorg-video-trident/+bug/15406922:22
ubotuLaunchpad bug 154069 in xserver-xorg-video-trident "Ubuntu freezing with toshiba laptop" [Undecided,New] 22:22
tormodI started contributing to Ubuntu docs because it was more anarchistic and easy to just do it in Ubuntu, but I have heard rumours that Debian is gonna be fun again?22:23
tepsipakkiimmoT-: you could attach xorg.conf and Xorg.0.log to that bug22:23
immoT-I can't use copypaste with lynx/commandline22:25
tormodthere used to be a thing to use mouse and copy/paste in a text console - gpt (?)22:26
tormodanyway, you can attach files with lynx as far as I can remember.22:27
immoT-ok, trying tomorrow22:28
tepsipakkihm, I was just testing lynx22:28
tepsipakkiI wonder if mail attachments are now added to the bug22:29
ubotuNew bug: #154069 in xserver-xorg-video-trident (main) "Ubuntu freezing with toshiba laptop" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15406922:30
brycetormod: ok I'll take a look22:38
jcristautormod: debian? fun? that can't be true!22:39
tormodjcristau: yeah I was hoping you would comment on that :)22:40
ubotuNew bug: #154046 in xorg (main) "black screen after upgrade to gutsy" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15404622:40
ubotuNew bug: #153977 in xorg (main) "Unable to use external monitor on laptop" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15397723:03
ubotuNew bug: #153952 in xserver-xorg-video-nv (main) "Gutsy boot failure" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15395223:12
tormodgood night23:21

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