[00:16] bddebian: could you please give some feedback to fernando's application for motu on the MC list? [00:30] ajmitch: time to grill slangasek *g* [00:32] slangasek: so my question to you is: I want to package FAUmachine, which needs one rom found in etherboot. Is it ok to build-depend on etherboot and simply copy/gunzip the rom during building or would this get rejected, as no source of etherboot would be in the source-package of FAUmachine? [00:34] sistpoty: hah, sure [00:37] sistpoty: interesting question. I'm always of the opinion that it's better to not carry around duplicate copies of source code when it's not necessary; and there would be nothing unique in this case of having part of the "source" be included in a package that you build-depend on (header packages are a good example of this, particularly header packages for heavily-templated C++ libraries). [00:37] sistpoty: Hmm, I'm not on that list :-) [00:37] sistpoty: so I would say that's ok, though it would be better for security support if FAUmachine could simply depend on a suitable package, to avoid code duplication in binary packages too [00:39] sistpoty: please let me know if my first line managed to get cut off, or if I've overlooked some rejections FAQ that applies here.. :) [00:39] slangasek: no, that actually was a real question (and I'm aiming at debian in the first place :P) [00:40] ok then. :) [00:40] slangasek: well, depending on etherboot is no problem (but unneeded for the first case), however actually using the gzipped images is tougher, since that would mean to add gunzip code to FAUmachine [00:40] sure [00:41] evening MOTU Land [00:41] * slangasek moos [00:42] hi slangasek [00:42] hi LaserJock_ [00:42] I figured you'd be recovering from the release still [00:42] sistpoty: hi! [00:43] how's Launchpad treating everybody? [00:44] Hey LaserJock_. [00:45] hello [00:45] TheMuso: don't know if you saw, but somebody asked about bug #93859 in -devel [00:45] Launchpad bug 93859 in linux-source-2.6.20 "[Feisty] Very low volume on Toshiba satellite a100-155" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/93859 [00:46] *finally* the OOM killer worked [00:46] can anyone help me with my wifi problem? [00:46] bddebian: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/motu-council <- there you are ;) (or just reply to it starting a new thread) [00:46] LaserJock_: I saw you talking to someone about audio, but I didn't read scrollback. [00:46] LaserJock_: LP made me file more bug reports this week than ever before... but I'm still alive :P [00:47] LaserJock_: Its well known that the hda-intel module is under constant development due to many notebooks using that chip these days, all with having different quirks. [00:47] (bug reports against LP) [00:47] My expertise is not kernel alsa drivers. [00:47] sistpoty: I saw a few. Anything I should know about specifically? [00:48] TheMuso: ok, well, it might be nice if a dev left a comment perhaps. It's not fun to have 2 releases worth of "me too"s and "this is how I fixed it" and no response from devs [00:48] I briefly skimmed the comments and didn't recognize any names [00:49] mrfantastic: this is really a support channel, did you try #ubuntu? [00:49] *isn't rather [00:49] i have a dlink dwl g630...its got a acx111 chipset...7.04 ran my card fine until i upgraded to 7.10. ubuntu still detects but no activity [00:49] i tried that channel [00:49] but no one helped [00:50] mrfantastic: is it USB? [00:50] cardbus [00:50] LaserJock_: well, not too sure, I guess making me file a bunch of reports in a week vs. the whole time prior to it is concerning... apart from that I guess bug #135669 is evil for MC business, but can be worked around [00:50] Launchpad bug 135669 in soyuz "PPA uploads are showing up on lp.net/~user/+packages" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/135669 [00:50] what i did before was use ndis and install the windows driver [00:50] that worked fine in 7.04 [00:51] sistpoty: I think I've already got that one on my list [00:51] cool [00:53] yay, I should read my mails a second time after writing, especially if I'm doing other stuff while writing *g* [00:53] mrfantastic: you might ask a question at https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ [00:53] sistpoty: yes, that does happen [00:54] slangasek: I wonder if you've got any ideas for MOTU [00:54] thanks ill check it out [00:55] 1300 users in the ubuntu channel and no even gave me that much [00:55] slangasek: I'd be very interested to hear tham, as I get the impression that you aren't too happy with some of the MOTU work at times [00:56] mrfantastic: well, it's a start anyway. I heard of a problem with acx* USB, but not cardbus [00:56] mrfantastic: maybe you could spread the word? [00:57] ajmitch: er? there have been specific occasions where I've been unhappy with something a MOTU has done; but there've also been plenty of specific occasions where I've been unhappy with something a Debian maintainer has done [00:57] what was the problem with USB maybe i can try that method [00:58] (actually I meant to spread the word of raising a question on launchpad) [00:58] slangasek: right, I said 'at times', we can probably discuss various procedural things on list [00:59] mrfantastic: there wasn't a solution, it was just a complaint [01:00] oh [01:00] thanks anyway [01:01] mrfantastic: sorry I'm not much help :/ [01:01] LaserJock_: ideas for MOTU> I have ideas about how I would like to see MOTU work in general that I think would be of long-term benefit (i.e., closer cooperation with Debian maintainers), but currently no concrete ideas of how to get there, nor am I so arrogant to think everyone should/will start working a certain way just because I think it's best [01:02] slangasek: I'm interested in your ideas [01:02] * TheMuso is likewise. [01:02] thanks bddebian! [01:02] but I understand how it's easy to want things to be better, but much harder to actually get something going [01:03] LaserJock_: well, I could say that I think all MOTUs should consider entering the Debian NM queue, but that doesn't mean everyone's interested in doing so :) [01:03] or has the time even :P [01:04] slangasek: I am!! [01:04] well, the Debian Maintainer queue [01:04] I don't want to be a DD [01:05] LaserJock_: damn, you were approved for motu about my time? So it seems that I'm the one who'll enter nm last :P [01:05] slangasek: Yes because they are all so friendly and helpful :-) [01:05] sistpoty: NP [01:05] given that MOTUs are charged with the work of merging changes between Debian and universe, I don't doubt that being in a position to NMU packages in Debian would make maintainers a little more receptive to suggested changes [01:06] that makes some sense [01:07] which would in the long term make the merge work a bit easier :) [01:07] as long as it's not "Ubuntu is taking over my package, ^#*($*" [01:07] *cough* [01:07] The packages I take care of, I tend to push all changes upstream if I can. [01:07] LaserJock_: see, if you're a DD first, that doesn't matter ;) [01:09] slangasek: sure [01:09] LaserJock_: Yeah, jump on that DD fast track.. ;-P [01:09] but I can't even keep track of Ubuntu, I'm not sure how' I'm supposed keep track of 2 [01:10] you get into Debian and trick Debian into helping you^Witself [01:10] :) [01:11] slangasek: The more you talk about DDship, the more I am considering signing up. :) [01:11] realistically, I know the Debian NM queue is long enough that there'll probably always only be a minority of MOTUs who are DDs [01:11] well, how many do we have right now? [01:11] I think probably around 5 [01:12] Well even as a DD you can [01:12] grr [01:12] can't just willy nilly upload fixes and changes to a package like you can in Ubuntu can you? [01:12] (nor do I think that MOTUs should have to become DDs in order to get other Debian maintainers to listen to you) [01:13] I like the Debian Maintainer idea [01:13] bddebian: no (though I hope "willy nilly" doesn't accurately describe the Ubuntu process either ;) [01:13] All DDs I've had to contact have been very forthcoming and receptive of any changes I've suggested. [01:13] slangasek: do you think Debian Maintainer could help bridge the gap? [01:13] maybe [01:14] for me the problem is basically that I don't know really anything about a lot of the packages I touch [01:14] slangasek: I mean the concept of a single maintainer for a package. [01:14] so being in Debian wouldn't necessarily help [01:14] bddebian: right, there's obviously a different concept of package ownership at work [01:14] bddebian: Debian has a lot teams though [01:14] slangasek: Seriously, I have a question without trying to sound like a smartass [01:14] TheMuso: same here... actually of all my debian bugs filed from motu work, I guess only 1 or 2 got rejected [01:15] but if the reason the Ubuntu changes don't get merged up is because the Debian maintainer is out to lunch, NMUs are an option too... [01:15] yeah [01:15] actually timing has been more of an issue for me that the Debian maintainer not liking the changes [01:15] slangasek: Take the gnome-breakout stuff I just did. The package was a mess but I get grilled for all of the little mistakes I made on my changes. Why the double standard? [01:15] at least since there is the "everlasting BSP" :) [01:16] * bddebian has an acronym aneurism [01:16] I mean, honestly, the reason I first got into Debian development was because at the time I was maintaining a bunch of rpms in house at work, and migrating to Debian was a way to make other people help me maintain them :) [01:17] bddebian: uh, tough question [01:17] bddebian: OTOH some people in teams are quite relaxed when it comes to really bad stuff *cough* [01:17] sistpoty: ;-) [01:17] bddebian: short answer: it shouldn't be a double-standard, the people before you should've been held to the same high standard :) [01:18] I'm just hoping BTS get's a web interface soon [01:18] slangasek: OTOH going through NM does require a much deeper understanding of packaging than becoming a MOTU [01:19] LaserJock_: Amen to that [01:19] the whole bugs-via-email thing just doesn't work for me [01:19] Of course an LP e-mail integration wouldn't be bad either ;-) [01:19] bddebian: but if you get someone who is a stickler about changes, I hope you take advantage of it, because the sponsoring/mentoring stages are pretty much the only time in Debian that you have anyone looking over your shoulder [01:19] which means it's the best opportunity to learn from others [01:19] LaserJock_: I find it very convenient, and imho LP could have learned a lot from it [01:20] sistpoty: to each his own I guess ;-) [01:20] probably :) [01:20] I much prefer LPs web interface to BTSs email interface [01:20] sistpoty: yes, that does seem to be one of the points of friction with Debian, doesn't it? :) [01:20] slangasek: As I said don't take that wrong, I'm happy to learn more. I just find the abuse about how I don't know shit and yada yada interesting when I have seen shitloads of Debian packages in pretty bad shape when looking at them for Ubuntu. [01:20] slangasek: sure [01:21] I will readily admit that there is a lot I don't know and I am exceptionally weak on the copyright side [01:21] bddebian: oh, well if you're getting that kind of abuse, then that's obviously not appropriate [01:21] I've found Debian much better once I found a few people who where nice [01:21] bddebian: and in that case, sure, there's a double standard because if you're a DD, people are less likely to say that about your packages even if they are crap ;) [01:22] LaserJock_: well, reportbug does a good job... we don't have an ubuntu equivalent (or I haven't found it yet). Likewise if you're forced to use email for triaging bugs like in debian, you'll learn the commands (I've not done that for LP yet= [01:22] Well that almost makes sense :) [01:22] sistpoty: yeah, I don't much care for reportbug and I don't have an idea most of the time what the emails are doing [01:23] slangasek: bddebian mostly gets abuse from himself, IME [01:23] LaserJock_: Overall there are some great people in Debian. Unfortunately there are 1 or 2 that sour it greatly for me ;-) [01:23] azeem: haha [01:23] sistpoty: ubuntu-bug? [01:23] bddebian: well, so don't pay attention to the bad apples ;-) [01:23] azeem: I don't mind abuse in general, just not when I'm trying to help and basically getting shit for it [01:23] http://mindboosternoori.blogspot.com/2007/10/on-ubuntu.html [01:23] slangasek: not a package? [01:24] check this blog entry about ubuntu and geneweb themuso patch [01:24] =) [01:24] bddebian: well, if you're feeling bad you can always go work on some MOTU Science bugs ;-) [01:24] sistpoty: part of apport [01:24] ah [01:25] LaserJock_: I looked at that list not too long ago [01:25] basically, I'm starting to think we just need more MOTU education [01:25] Actually isn't pybliographer one of the science packages? [01:25] I think we need to increase the overall technical level of MOTUs [01:25] LaserJock_: I would be happy to see that happen [01:26] slangasek: no, at least from looking at the source package. [01:26] Kmos: That was to work around LP infrastructure. [01:26] LaserJock_: How do you reconcile that with everyone whining for a faster easier process? :-) [01:26] sistpoty: $ dpkg -S `which ubuntu-bug` [01:26] apport: /usr/bin/ubuntu-bug [01:26] bddebian: well I don't [01:26] Kmos: Thats not a problem I could get fixed properly at that time. [01:26] I don't agree with a "lower the bar to MOTU so we get more people" approach [01:26] slangasek: did you look at it? :P [01:26] I think if you have fewer people who were competent you'll get farther [01:27] (line 3 in particular *g*) [01:27] TheMuso: I mailed the maintainer and he says he doesn't have nothing to do with derivative distros like ubuntu.. today there is a 5.01-3 release that fixes the problem. [01:27] :) [01:27] bddebian: you reconcile it by making "more education" a goal for everyone, instead of a barrier to entry [01:27] sistpoty: oh, haha, that's not email [01:27] TheMuso: http://packages.qa.debian.org/g/geneweb/news/20071019T210206Z.html [01:27] :) [01:27] slangasek: agreed [01:27] Kmos: I don't doubt that. We couldn't easily bring in new upstream versions at the time, and it didn't seem like it was worth it just for a quick fix like that. [01:28] Kmos: since I'm a member of debian-games as well, would you mind to answer Miriam Ruiz's mail? [01:28] alrighty, gotta run; later, folks [01:28] TheMuso: i think it was a valid fix.. because we really don't have time to report it upstream.. i've done with by mail to the maintainer, but today I created an bug in Debian BTS [01:29] sistpoty: i'm not subscribed to debian games ML.. i need to check that manually [01:29] cya slangasek [01:29] Kmos: who come? you want to work in that team, don't you? [01:29] Laster slangasek [01:30] sistpoty: i already have worked with some packages.. i had some problems with rhonda, that I agree in some points. [01:30] sistpoty: do you have the URL of miriam mail ? [01:30] Kmos: It was an LP/Ubuntu tool that made the package choak. Normally, 0 length po files are not a problem. [01:30] TheMuso: pitti said it was a feature, not an bug.. that check is now normal. [01:31] * Kmos smoke [01:31] imbrandon: bootcharts or it didnt happen [01:31] Kmos: let me look... but please subscribe to the games mailing list, as that is usually the first point of contact (it also recieve the bug mails, so how could you know about these w.o. subscribing?) [01:32] sistpoty: i need to do it :) [01:33] hmm [01:34] it just seems like we have so many initiatives or programs for such a small number of people [01:34] amen [01:35] sistpoty: done, now.. I need to wait for moderator confirmation [01:35] sistpoty: don't need moderator approvement.. it's done [01:35] Kmos: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-games/2007/10/msg00043.html [01:36] Kmos: (please look at the whole thread) [01:36] I'd caution taking advice on lowering the bar to MOTUship from non-MOTU peoples [01:36] pwnguin: I don't think that was discussed... [01:37] ? [01:37] I didn't see anything about lowering the bar. [01:37] then you missed that email [01:38] pwnguin: As it is though, I agree. [01:38] My question is, is universe missing people, or leaders (*M*otu)? [01:38] I honestly think Universe is missing technically competent people [01:38] sistpoty: ok, thx [01:38] the wiki and the like highly revolves around becoming a Master of universe [01:38] LaserJock_: Agreed. [01:39] our processes aren't really that bad [01:39] but if you look at the developers of other distros [01:39] i wonder if that focus in the wiki promotes a misconception that only MOTU contribute to universe [01:39] in general we are a very young and immature group [01:39] heh [01:40] I've got a mind to think that we actually more effort on teaching *existing* MOTUs [01:40] *actually need [01:40] LaserJock_: Agreed also. [01:41] pwnguin: I don't think that misconception has really anything to do with MOTU [01:41] the purpose of MOTU is to sponsor uploads and such right? to be a set of eyes upon the larger universe contributing community [01:41] pwnguin: no, it's purpose is to maintain Universe and Multiverse [01:41] so if you're not part of MOTU [01:41] It sometimes feels like we do more sponsoring than anything else though. [01:41] you dont maintain? [01:41] that's not what I said [01:42] I said the purpose of MOTU is to maintain Universe and Multiverse [01:42] if there aren't enough people in MOTU itself to handle that then you "outsource" [01:42] is it ok to chgrp in a postinst? [01:43] LaserJock_: by default, there arent enough people [01:43] pwnguin: why would you say that? [01:43] * jdong chuckles at his horrible sedjob [01:43] "Medibuntu -- 7.04 "gutsy fawn" " [01:43] bddebian: Why would you need to do that? [01:43] jdong: hehe [01:44] LaserJock_: because theres a lot more software than people? [01:44] the thing is, MOTU was never meant to be a oversight committee, IMO [01:44] well i think thats a mistake [01:44] well, I'd respectfully disagree [01:45] most people didn't become MOTUs so they could babysit people [01:45] indeed [01:45] Agreed. [01:45] the reason we teach and help is so that the people we teach will join us [01:45] to become part of the team [01:45] if you want quality, you have to have babysitters [01:46] peer review is fundamental [01:46] Debian does quite well without much babysitting [01:46] heh [01:46] by which you mean, they accept 2 new DDs a year [01:47] well, that's somewhat of another issue [01:47] I'm saying that Debian produces arguably the best distribution, without requiring much day-to-day babysitting [01:48] because everyone goes through an extreme process to make sure you're sane [01:48] there could be some of that [01:48] although it's not always so extreme [01:48] there could quite possibly be many ways to streamline that process [01:49] but I'm afraid we don't even have very good "babysitters" right now in Ubuntu [01:49] true; azureus at this point ought to just be killed [01:49] I'm not throwing out mentoring and sponsorship [01:49] pwnguin: lol [01:50] TheMuso: xboing moves the scores file in postinst from var/lib/foo to /var/games/foo but it's root:root so it can't save the scores :-) [01:50] LaserJock_: Do you mean that the QA has dropped with sponsorship? [01:50] I'm suggesting that perhaps we'd end up with an even faster/better process if the MOTU where more educated [01:50] I wonder, our Azureus seems to be such a mess... that should we just start over and base off Fedora... again? [01:50] just base off upstream [01:50] bddebian: Well why not have the file placed correctly at package build time? [01:50] is there someohing nonfree with az? [01:50] I think it's no so much a matter of quantity but quality [01:50] TheMuso: Because that would be the smart thing to do ;-P [01:51] pwnguin: only if you want it to actually work [01:51] heh [01:51] I never know how radically to change packages [01:51] pwnguin: as much as people say it works fine with Fedora patches and GNU GCJ.... I frankly don't buy it [01:51] pwnguin: the only properly functioning Azureus I've ever seen is with Sun Java [01:51] it woriks fanfuckingtasically from the tarball [01:51] bddebian: Well what you said about moving it sounds VERY VERY crackful to me. [01:51] and sun java [01:51] well actually [01:51] i take that back [01:51] pwnguin: exactly... [01:52] Ubuntu's package will cause hotspot to crash [01:52] TheMuso: I agree. Another point about Debian packages.. ;-) [01:52] which is an accomplishment, really [01:52] pwnguin: something borkens when it's compiled from source with GCJ [01:52] LaserJock_: As a group, what do you think we lack in terms of knowledge? [01:52] * pwnguin hats off to azureus packager [01:52] pwnguin: I'll have to set up a Fedora 8 VM sometime to fool with their stability... [01:52] deluge-torrent does the job for me :) [01:53] jdong: a massive problem is this native ui patchset [01:53] pwnguin: last time I tried was FC6 and it was actually quite nice... a tad slower than Sun Java's Azureus but at least everything worked. [01:53] azureus is the only tool that i can game the system enough with =) [01:54] TheMuso: programming knowledge is some of it [01:54] heh [01:54] we need to be able to actively patch and be able to review patches [01:54] i dont see how motu can require programming knowledge when core dev doesnt [01:54] core dev doesn't? [01:55] ive seen a few admit they cant [01:55] well, that's not exactly true [01:55] I'd admit it [01:55] but that doesn't mean I don't know *anything* [01:55] I need to know more [01:55] * TheMuso can read and understand shell scripts, a little bit of perl, most C, and pretty much no C++. [01:55] but does mean you might know enough [01:55] and some python [01:56] well, we are working on *source* packages [01:56] we are working on the instructions on building software [01:56] yep indeed. [01:56] you can do a fair amount without programming experience [01:57] but I think at some point, if you want to be effective you gotta have that experience [01:57] LaserJock_: Actually, another thing that would be good to know is how to interpret stack traces from apport. [01:57] heh [01:57] exactly [01:57] I'm totally clueless when it comes to apport [01:57] how does that even work? [01:57] Likewise. [01:57] I have no idea about debugging symbols etc. [01:58] i wonder if anyone besides keybuk knows wtf to do with apport [01:58] in short, I think a lot of MOTU is just incapable of being anything but paperwork shufflers [01:58] If I knew how to read a stack trace for a C program, chances are I could then fix it. [01:58] LaserJock_: and i think a lot of people would rather be writing code than signing up to shuffle paper in MOTU [01:58] On the other hand, a while back, I actually coded a patch to fix endianness issues in a package. [01:59] how is a stack trace hard to read? [01:59] it's basically the nest of function calls [01:59] pwnguin: For someone who knows how to read them, thats easy to say. [01:59] yeah, I don't have a clue what it's doing [01:59] Try looking at one of the text files apport retracer produces. [01:59] bug #? [02:00] I know function calls when I see them, but thats about it. [02:00] Then, things get more complicated when threads are involved. [02:00] yes [02:00] its a miracle it works at all [02:01] i imagine apport is supposed to be used with gdb or some such [02:01] * sistpoty needs to go to bed... gn8 everyone [02:01] Night sistpoty. [02:01] c [02:01] ugh [02:02] pwnguin: Given time, I could work out stack traces, but I think a session by one experienced with them for MOTUs is an absolute must. [02:02] then there's upstream knowledge [02:02] We get a lot of apport crash bugs filed, and we tend not to deal with them mostly. [02:02] and tool knowledge [02:02] LaserJock_: Yes indeed. [02:02] LaserJock_: i think upstream knowledge is a steep requirement given the MOTU concept [02:03] Autoconf/automake stack is another problem at times. [02:03] god [02:03] pwnguin: At least knowing build frameworks is a need to know. [02:03] i so hate autoconf [02:03] pwnguin: we're supposed to be working with upstreams though [02:03] Well, the fact is that most projects use it. [02:03] moving bugs upstream [02:04] * TheMuso has seen many crap autoconf setups in his time [02:04] And, I've seen very very good ones. [02:04] well, sure. but what i mean is rather than simply being familiar with upstream, you should have the ability to navigate the upstream landscape [02:04] ie never know who you'll be dealing with next and still feel comfortable [02:04] well, kinda [02:05] brb [02:05] but we've got a whole lotta bugs that we're not going to be able to fix [02:06] so, I guess my point is that maybe a focus on MOTU education would be the way to go [02:06] back [02:06] you don't have to be a uberhacker to be a MOTU [02:06] so they can start fixing bugs upstream hasnt? [02:06] LaserJock_: I'm behind you here. [02:06] but you don't stop learning once you've become a MOTU [02:06] aint that the truth. [02:06] making MOTU should just be the beginning :-) [02:07] * TheMuso went for MOTU, with the full intension of becoming a core-dev one day. [02:07] pwnguin: well, we have to evaluate if it's an upstream bug to start with [02:07] and if we should/could do a fix in Ubuntu first [02:08] a MOTU should be roughly on par with a DD [02:08] ouch [02:08] LaserJock_: Roughly on par, I'd say the same as. [02:08] well, it's a bit hard to make a direct comparision [02:08] LaserJock_: are you talking about a full motu, with uploader rivilege? [02:08] or any motu? [02:08] this is what i mean [02:08] LaserJock_: Yes, but I mean in terms of quality of work [02:08] jmg: a MOTU is a Universe uploader [02:08] there's a conflict of defintions out there [02:08] TheMuso: agreed [02:09] ok [02:09] plenty of people are willing to take part in a process where someone else has to review the package before its taken [02:09] Another thing I think needs talking about, is dealing with shared libs, sonames, and the rest. [02:09] TheMuso: exactly [02:09] is someone writing a book? :) [02:10] there's already two [02:10] * TheMuso should read that shared libs guide again [02:10] debian new maint guide and debian-policy [02:10] the other aspect of this though [02:10] pwnguin: and the Ubuntu Packaging Guide [02:10] yes [02:10] !shlibs [02:10] Sorry, I don't know anything about shlibs - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi [02:10] gah anybody got that url for the shared libs guide? [02:10] i mean, a really comprehensive book [02:10] is that if you have a good team of high-quality MOTUs then it becomes a good place for people to learn packaging [02:11] and sponsoring is smooth [02:11] et.c [02:11] *etc. [02:11] !revu [02:11] REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU [02:12] one thing about MOTU that makes it challenging versus debian is that as a debian packager you often have a good clue of what you've mangled compared to upstream [02:13] quilt and dpatch help make patching source more obvious i think [02:15] pwnguin: yeah, true [02:16] so whats the story with sun java 7? [02:16] people moaning about nonfree build deps, is that fixed yet? [02:18] Damn I hate Debian being on OFTC :) [02:18] and gnome on gimpnet [02:19] was there a purpose behind debian leaving oftc? [02:19] hiding from users? [02:20] Firstly, it left Freenode, not OFTC. [02:20] oops [02:20] yea [02:20] leaving FOR oftc [02:20]