[00:16] <sistpoty> bddebian: could you please give some feedback to fernando's application for motu on the MC list?
[00:30] <sistpoty> ajmitch: time to grill slangasek *g*
[00:32] <sistpoty> slangasek: so my question to you is: I want to package FAUmachine, which needs one rom found in etherboot. Is it ok to build-depend on etherboot and simply copy/gunzip the rom during building or would this get rejected, as no source of etherboot would be in the source-package of FAUmachine?
[00:34] <ajmitch> sistpoty: hah, sure
[00:37] <slangasek> sistpoty: interesting question.  I'm always of the opinion that it's better to not carry around duplicate copies of source code when it's not necessary; and there would be nothing unique in this case of having part of the "source" be included in a package that you build-depend on (header packages are a good example of this, particularly header packages for heavily-templated C++ libraries).
[00:37] <bddebian> sistpoty: Hmm, I'm not on that list :-)
[00:37] <slangasek> sistpoty: so I would say that's ok, though it would be better for security support if FAUmachine could simply depend on a suitable package, to avoid code duplication in binary packages too
[00:39] <slangasek> sistpoty: please let me know if my first line managed to get cut off, or if I've overlooked some rejections FAQ that applies here.. :)
[00:39] <sistpoty> slangasek: no, that actually was a real question (and I'm aiming at debian in the first place :P)
[00:40] <slangasek> ok then. :)
[00:40] <sistpoty> slangasek: well, depending on etherboot is no problem (but unneeded for the first case), however actually using the gzipped images is tougher, since that would mean to add gunzip code to FAUmachine
[00:40] <slangasek> sure
[00:41] <LaserJock_> evening MOTU Land
[00:41]  * slangasek moos
[00:42] <LaserJock_> hi slangasek
[00:42] <sistpoty> hi LaserJock_
[00:42] <LaserJock_> I figured you'd be recovering from the release still
[00:42] <LaserJock_> sistpoty: hi!
[00:43] <LaserJock_> how's Launchpad treating everybody?
[00:44] <TheMuso> Hey LaserJock_.
[00:45] <mrfantastic> hello
[00:45] <LaserJock_> TheMuso: don't know if you saw, but somebody asked about bug #93859 in -devel
[00:45] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 93859 in linux-source-2.6.20 "[Feisty] Very low volume on Toshiba satellite a100-155" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/93859
[00:46] <ajmitch> *finally* the OOM killer worked
[00:46] <mrfantastic> can anyone help me with my wifi problem?
[00:46] <sistpoty> bddebian: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/motu-council <- there you are ;) (or just reply to it starting a new thread)
[00:46] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: I saw you talking to someone about audio, but I didn't read scrollback.
[00:46] <sistpoty> LaserJock_: LP made me file more bug reports this week than ever before... but I'm still alive :P
[00:47] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: Its well known that the hda-intel module is under constant development due to many notebooks using that chip these days, all with having different quirks.
[00:47] <sistpoty> (bug reports against LP)
[00:47] <TheMuso> My expertise is not kernel alsa drivers.
[00:47] <LaserJock_> sistpoty: I saw a few. Anything I should know about specifically?
[00:48] <LaserJock_> TheMuso: ok, well, it might be nice if a dev left a comment perhaps. It's not fun to have 2 releases worth of "me too"s and "this is how I fixed it" and no response from devs
[00:48] <LaserJock_> I briefly skimmed the comments and didn't recognize any names
[00:49] <LaserJock_> mrfantastic: this is really a support channel, did you try #ubuntu?
[00:49] <LaserJock_> *isn't rather
[00:49] <mrfantastic> i have a dlink dwl g630...its got a acx111 chipset...7.04 ran my card fine until i upgraded to 7.10.  ubuntu still detects but no activity
[00:49] <mrfantastic> i tried that channel
[00:49] <mrfantastic> but no one helped
[00:50] <LaserJock_> mrfantastic: is it USB?
[00:50] <mrfantastic> cardbus
[00:50] <sistpoty> LaserJock_: well, not too sure, I guess making me file a bunch of reports in a week vs. the whole time prior to it is concerning... apart from that I guess bug #135669 is evil for MC business, but can be worked around
[00:50] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 135669 in soyuz "PPA uploads are showing up on lp.net/~user/+packages" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/135669
[00:50] <mrfantastic> what i did before was use ndis and install the windows driver
[00:50] <mrfantastic> that worked fine in 7.04
[00:51] <LaserJock_> sistpoty: I think I've already got that one on my list
[00:51] <sistpoty> cool
[00:53] <sistpoty> yay, I should read my mails a second time after writing, especially if I'm doing other stuff while writing *g*
[00:53] <LaserJock_> mrfantastic: you might ask a question at https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/
[00:53] <LaserJock_> sistpoty: yes, that does happen
[00:54] <LaserJock_> slangasek: I wonder if you've got any ideas for MOTU
[00:54] <mrfantastic> thanks ill check it out
[00:55] <mrfantastic> 1300 users in the ubuntu channel and no even gave me that much
[00:55] <ajmitch> slangasek: I'd be very interested to hear tham, as I get the impression that you aren't too happy with some of the MOTU work at times
[00:56] <LaserJock_> mrfantastic: well, it's a start anyway. I heard of a problem with acx* USB, but not cardbus
[00:56] <sistpoty> mrfantastic: maybe you could spread the word?
[00:57] <slangasek> ajmitch: er?  there have been specific occasions where I've been unhappy with something a MOTU has done; but there've also been plenty of specific occasions where I've been unhappy with something a Debian maintainer has done
[00:57] <mrfantastic> what was the problem with USB maybe i can try that method
[00:58] <sistpoty> (actually I meant to spread the word of raising a question on launchpad)
[00:58] <ajmitch> slangasek: right, I said 'at times', we can probably discuss various procedural things on list
[00:59] <LaserJock_> mrfantastic: there wasn't a solution, it was just a complaint
[01:00] <mrfantastic> oh
[01:00] <mrfantastic> thanks anyway
[01:01] <LaserJock_> mrfantastic: sorry I'm not much help :/
[01:01] <slangasek> LaserJock_: ideas for MOTU> I have ideas about how I would like to see MOTU work in general that I think would be of long-term benefit (i.e., closer cooperation with Debian maintainers), but currently no concrete ideas of how to get there, nor am I so arrogant to think everyone should/will start working a certain way just because I think it's best
[01:02] <LaserJock_> slangasek: I'm interested in your ideas
[01:02]  * TheMuso is likewise.
[01:02] <sistpoty> thanks bddebian!
[01:02] <LaserJock_> but I understand how it's easy to want things to be better, but much harder to actually get something going
[01:03] <slangasek> LaserJock_: well, I could say that I think all MOTUs should consider entering the Debian NM queue, but that doesn't mean everyone's interested in doing so :)
[01:03] <sistpoty> or has the time even :P
[01:04] <LaserJock_> slangasek: I am!!
[01:04] <LaserJock_> well, the Debian Maintainer queue
[01:04] <LaserJock_> I don't want to be a DD
[01:05] <sistpoty> LaserJock_: damn, you were approved for motu about my time? So it seems that I'm the one who'll enter nm last :P
[01:05] <bddebian> slangasek: Yes because they are all so friendly and helpful :-)
[01:05] <bddebian> sistpoty: NP
[01:05] <slangasek> given that MOTUs are charged with the work of merging changes between Debian and universe, I don't doubt that being in a position to NMU packages in Debian would make maintainers a little more receptive to suggested changes
[01:06] <LaserJock_> that makes some sense
[01:07] <slangasek> which would in the long term make the merge work a bit easier :)
[01:07] <LaserJock_> as long as it's not "Ubuntu is taking over my package, ^#*($*"
[01:07] <bddebian> *cough*
[01:07] <TheMuso> The packages I take care of, I tend to push all changes upstream if I can.
[01:07] <slangasek> LaserJock_: see, if you're a DD first, that doesn't matter ;)
[01:09] <LaserJock_> slangasek: sure
[01:09] <bddebian> LaserJock_: Yeah, jump on that DD fast track.. ;-P
[01:09] <LaserJock_> but I can't even keep track of Ubuntu, I'm not sure how' I'm supposed keep track of 2
[01:10] <slangasek> you get into Debian and trick Debian into helping you^Witself
[01:10] <slangasek> :)
[01:11] <TheMuso> slangasek: The more you talk about DDship, the more I am considering signing up. :)
[01:11] <slangasek> realistically, I know the Debian NM queue is long enough that there'll probably always only be a minority of MOTUs who are DDs
[01:11] <LaserJock_> well, how many do we have right now?
[01:11] <LaserJock_> I think probably around 5
[01:12] <bddebian> Well even as a DD you can
[01:12] <bddebian> grr
[01:12] <bddebian> can't just willy nilly upload fixes and changes to a package like you can in Ubuntu can you?
[01:12] <slangasek> (nor do I think that MOTUs should have to become DDs in order to get other Debian maintainers to listen to you)
[01:13] <LaserJock_> I like the Debian Maintainer idea
[01:13] <slangasek> bddebian: no (though I hope "willy nilly" doesn't accurately describe the Ubuntu process either ;)
[01:13] <TheMuso> All DDs I've had to contact have been very forthcoming and receptive of any changes I've suggested.
[01:13] <LaserJock_> slangasek: do you think Debian Maintainer could help bridge the gap?
[01:13] <slangasek> maybe
[01:14] <LaserJock_> for me the problem is basically that I don't know really anything about a lot of the packages I touch
[01:14] <bddebian> slangasek: I mean the concept of a single maintainer for a package.
[01:14] <LaserJock_> so being in Debian wouldn't necessarily help
[01:14] <slangasek> bddebian: right, there's obviously a different concept of package ownership at work
[01:14] <LaserJock_> bddebian: Debian has a lot teams though
[01:14] <bddebian> slangasek: Seriously, I have a question without trying to sound like a smartass
[01:14] <sistpoty> TheMuso: same here... actually of all my debian bugs filed from motu work, I guess only 1 or 2 got rejected
[01:15] <slangasek> but if the reason the Ubuntu changes don't get merged up is because the Debian maintainer is out to lunch, NMUs are an option too...
[01:15] <LaserJock_> yeah
[01:15] <LaserJock_> actually timing has been more of an issue for me that the Debian maintainer not liking the changes
[01:15] <bddebian> slangasek: Take the gnome-breakout stuff I just did.  The package was a mess but I get grilled for all of the little mistakes I made on my changes.  Why the double standard?
[01:15] <sistpoty> at least since there is the "everlasting BSP" :)
[01:16]  * bddebian has an acronym aneurism
[01:16] <slangasek> I mean, honestly, the reason I first got into Debian development was because at the time I was maintaining a bunch of rpms in house at work, and migrating to Debian was a way to make other people help me maintain them :)
[01:17] <slangasek> bddebian: uh, tough question
[01:17] <sistpoty> bddebian: OTOH some people in teams are quite relaxed when it comes to really bad stuff *cough*
[01:17] <bddebian> sistpoty: ;-)
[01:17] <slangasek> bddebian: short answer: it shouldn't be a double-standard, the people before you should've been held to the same high standard :)
[01:18] <LaserJock_> I'm just hoping BTS get's a web interface soon
[01:18] <sistpoty> slangasek: OTOH going through NM does require a much deeper understanding of packaging than becoming a MOTU
[01:19] <bddebian> LaserJock_: Amen to that
[01:19] <LaserJock_> the whole bugs-via-email thing just doesn't work for me
[01:19] <bddebian> Of course an LP e-mail integration wouldn't be bad either ;-)
[01:19] <slangasek> bddebian: but if you get someone who is a stickler about changes, I hope you take advantage of it, because the sponsoring/mentoring stages are pretty much the only time in Debian that you have anyone looking over your shoulder
[01:19] <slangasek> which means it's the best opportunity to learn from others
[01:19] <sistpoty> LaserJock_: I find it very convenient, and imho LP could have learned a lot from it
[01:20] <LaserJock_> sistpoty: to each his own I guess ;-)
[01:20] <sistpoty> probably :)
[01:20] <LaserJock_> I much prefer LPs web interface to BTSs email interface
[01:20] <slangasek> sistpoty: yes, that does seem to be one of the points of friction with Debian, doesn't it? :)
[01:20] <bddebian> slangasek: As I said don't take that wrong, I'm happy to learn more.  I just find the abuse about how I don't know shit and yada yada interesting when I have seen shitloads of Debian packages in pretty bad shape when looking at them for Ubuntu.
[01:20] <sistpoty> slangasek: sure
[01:21] <bddebian> I will readily admit that there is a lot I don't know and I am exceptionally weak on the copyright side
[01:21] <slangasek> bddebian: oh, well if you're getting that kind of abuse, then that's obviously not appropriate
[01:21] <LaserJock_> I've found Debian much better once I found a few people who where nice
[01:21] <slangasek> bddebian: and in that case, sure, there's a double standard because if you're a DD, people are less likely to say that about your packages even if they are crap ;)
[01:22] <sistpoty> LaserJock_: well, reportbug does a good job... we don't have an ubuntu equivalent (or I haven't found it yet). Likewise if you're forced to use email for triaging bugs like in debian, you'll learn the commands (I've not done that for LP yet=
[01:22] <bddebian> Well that almost makes sense :)
[01:22] <LaserJock_> sistpoty: yeah, I don't much care for reportbug and I don't have an idea most of the time what the emails are doing
[01:23] <azeem> slangasek: bddebian mostly gets abuse from himself, IME
[01:23] <bddebian> LaserJock_: Overall there are some great people in Debian.  Unfortunately there are 1 or 2 that sour it greatly for me ;-)
[01:23] <LaserJock_> azeem: haha
[01:23] <slangasek> sistpoty: ubuntu-bug?
[01:23] <LaserJock_> bddebian: well, so don't pay attention to the bad apples ;-)
[01:23] <bddebian> azeem: I don't mind abuse in general, just not when I'm trying to help and basically getting shit for it
[01:23] <Kmos> http://mindboosternoori.blogspot.com/2007/10/on-ubuntu.html
[01:23] <sistpoty> slangasek: not a package?
[01:24] <Kmos> check this blog entry about ubuntu and geneweb themuso patch
[01:24] <Kmos> =)
[01:24] <LaserJock_> bddebian: well, if you're feeling bad you can always go work on some MOTU Science bugs ;-)
[01:24] <slangasek> sistpoty: part of apport
[01:24] <sistpoty> ah
[01:25] <bddebian> LaserJock_: I looked at that list not too long ago
[01:25] <LaserJock_> basically, I'm starting to think we just need more MOTU education
[01:25] <bddebian> Actually isn't pybliographer one of the science packages?
[01:25] <LaserJock_> I think we need to increase the overall technical level of MOTUs
[01:25] <slangasek> LaserJock_: I would be happy to see that happen
[01:26] <sistpoty> slangasek: no, at least from looking at the source package.
[01:26] <TheMuso> Kmos: That was to work around LP infrastructure.
[01:26] <bddebian> LaserJock_: How do you reconcile that with everyone whining for a faster easier process? :-)
[01:26] <slangasek> sistpoty: $ dpkg -S `which ubuntu-bug`
[01:26] <slangasek> apport: /usr/bin/ubuntu-bug
[01:26] <LaserJock_> bddebian: well I don't
[01:26] <TheMuso> Kmos: Thats not a problem I could get fixed properly at that time.
[01:26] <LaserJock_> I don't agree with a "lower the bar to MOTU so we get more people" approach
[01:26] <sistpoty> slangasek: did you look at it? :P
[01:26] <LaserJock_> I think if you have fewer people who were competent you'll get farther
[01:27] <sistpoty> (line 3 in particular *g*)
[01:27] <Kmos> TheMuso: I mailed the maintainer and he says he doesn't have nothing to do with derivative distros like ubuntu.. today there is a 5.01-3 release that fixes the problem.
[01:27] <Kmos> :)
[01:27] <slangasek> bddebian: you reconcile it by making "more education" a goal for everyone, instead of a barrier to entry
[01:27] <slangasek> sistpoty: oh, haha, that's not email
[01:27] <Kmos> TheMuso: http://packages.qa.debian.org/g/geneweb/news/20071019T210206Z.html
[01:27] <slangasek> :)
[01:27] <LaserJock_> slangasek: agreed
[01:27] <TheMuso> Kmos: I don't doubt that. We couldn't easily bring in new upstream versions at the time, and it didn't seem like it was worth it just for a quick fix like that.
[01:28] <sistpoty> Kmos: since I'm a member of debian-games as well, would you mind to answer Miriam Ruiz's mail?
[01:28] <slangasek> alrighty, gotta run; later, folks
[01:28] <Kmos> TheMuso: i think it was a valid fix.. because we really don't have time to report it upstream.. i've done with by mail to the maintainer, but today I created an bug in Debian BTS
[01:29] <Kmos> sistpoty: i'm not subscribed to debian games ML.. i need to check that manually
[01:29] <sistpoty> cya slangasek
[01:29] <sistpoty> Kmos: who come? you want to work in that team, don't you?
[01:29] <bddebian> Laster slangasek
[01:30] <Kmos> sistpoty: i already have worked with some packages.. i had some problems with rhonda, that I agree in some points.
[01:30] <Kmos> sistpoty: do you have the URL of miriam mail ?
[01:30] <TheMuso> Kmos: It was an LP/Ubuntu tool that made the package choak. Normally, 0 length po files are not a problem.
[01:30] <Kmos> TheMuso: pitti said it was a feature, not an bug.. that check is now normal.
[01:31]  * Kmos smoke
[01:31] <pwnguin> imbrandon: bootcharts or it didnt happen
[01:31] <sistpoty> Kmos: let me look... but please subscribe to the games mailing list, as that is usually the first point of contact (it also recieve the bug mails, so how could you know about these w.o. subscribing?)
[01:32] <Kmos> sistpoty: i need to do it :)
[01:33] <LaserJock_> hmm
[01:34] <LaserJock_> it just seems like we have so many initiatives or programs for such a small number of people
[01:34] <bddebian> amen
[01:35] <Kmos> sistpoty: done, now.. I need to wait for moderator confirmation
[01:35] <Kmos> sistpoty: don't need moderator approvement.. it's done
[01:35] <sistpoty> Kmos: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-games/2007/10/msg00043.html
[01:36] <sistpoty> Kmos: (please look at the whole thread)
[01:36] <pwnguin> I'd caution taking advice on lowering the bar to MOTUship from non-MOTU peoples
[01:36] <TheMuso> pwnguin: I don't think that was discussed...
[01:37] <pwnguin> ?
[01:37] <TheMuso> I didn't see anything about lowering the bar.
[01:37] <pwnguin> then you missed that email
[01:38] <TheMuso> pwnguin: As it is though, I agree.
[01:38] <pwnguin> My question is, is universe missing people, or leaders (*M*otu)?
[01:38] <LaserJock_> I honestly think Universe is missing technically competent people
[01:38] <Kmos> sistpoty: ok, thx
[01:38] <pwnguin> the wiki and the like highly revolves around becoming a Master of universe
[01:38] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: Agreed.
[01:39] <LaserJock_> our processes aren't really that bad
[01:39] <LaserJock_> but if you look at the developers of other distros
[01:39] <pwnguin> i wonder if that focus in the wiki promotes a misconception that only MOTU contribute to universe
[01:39] <LaserJock_> in general we are a very young and immature group
[01:39] <pwnguin> heh
[01:40] <LaserJock_> I've got a mind to think that we actually more effort on teaching *existing* MOTUs
[01:40] <LaserJock_> *actually need
[01:40] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: Agreed also.
[01:41] <LaserJock_> pwnguin: I don't think that misconception has really anything to do with MOTU
[01:41] <pwnguin> the purpose of MOTU is to sponsor uploads and such right? to be a set of eyes upon the larger universe contributing community
[01:41] <LaserJock_> pwnguin: no, it's purpose is to maintain Universe and Multiverse
[01:41] <pwnguin> so if you're not part of MOTU
[01:41] <TheMuso> It sometimes feels like we do more sponsoring than anything else though.
[01:41] <pwnguin> you dont maintain?
[01:41] <LaserJock_> that's not what I said
[01:42] <LaserJock_> I said the purpose of MOTU is to maintain Universe and Multiverse
[01:42] <LaserJock_> if there aren't enough people in MOTU itself to handle that then you "outsource"
[01:42] <bddebian> is it ok to chgrp in a postinst?
[01:43] <pwnguin> LaserJock_: by default, there arent enough people
[01:43] <LaserJock_> pwnguin: why would you say that?
[01:43]  * jdong chuckles at his horrible sedjob
[01:43] <jdong> "Medibuntu -- 7.04 "gutsy fawn" "
[01:43] <TheMuso> bddebian: Why would you need to do that?
[01:43] <LaserJock_> jdong: hehe
[01:44] <pwnguin> LaserJock_: because theres a lot more software than people?
[01:44] <LaserJock_> the thing is, MOTU was never meant to be a oversight committee, IMO
[01:44] <pwnguin> well i think thats a mistake
[01:44] <LaserJock_> well, I'd respectfully disagree
[01:45] <LaserJock_> most people didn't become MOTUs so they could babysit people
[01:45] <pwnguin> indeed
[01:45] <TheMuso> Agreed.
[01:45] <LaserJock_> the reason we teach and help is so that the people we teach will join us
[01:45] <LaserJock_> to become part of the team
[01:45] <pwnguin> if you want quality, you have to have babysitters
[01:46] <pwnguin> peer review is fundamental
[01:46] <LaserJock_> Debian does quite well without much babysitting
[01:46] <pwnguin> heh
[01:46] <pwnguin> by which you mean, they accept 2 new DDs a year
[01:47] <LaserJock_> well, that's somewhat of another issue
[01:47] <LaserJock_> I'm saying that Debian produces arguably the best distribution, without requiring much day-to-day babysitting
[01:48] <pwnguin> because everyone goes through an extreme process to make sure you're sane
[01:48] <LaserJock_> there could be some of that
[01:48] <LaserJock_> although it's not always so extreme
[01:48] <LaserJock_> there could quite possibly be many ways to streamline that process
[01:49] <LaserJock_> but I'm afraid we don't even have very good "babysitters" right now in Ubuntu
[01:49] <pwnguin> true; azureus at this point ought to just be killed
[01:49] <LaserJock_> I'm not throwing out mentoring and sponsorship
[01:49] <TheMuso> pwnguin: lol
[01:50] <bddebian> TheMuso: xboing moves the scores file in postinst from var/lib/foo to /var/games/foo but it's root:root so it can't save the scores :-)
[01:50] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: Do you mean that the QA has dropped with sponsorship?
[01:50] <LaserJock_> I'm suggesting that perhaps we'd end up with an even faster/better process if the MOTU where more educated
[01:50] <jdong> I wonder, our Azureus seems to be such a mess... that should we just start over and base off Fedora... again?
[01:50] <pwnguin> just base off upstream
[01:50] <TheMuso> bddebian: Well why not have the file placed correctly at package build time?
[01:50] <pwnguin> is there someohing nonfree with az?
[01:50] <LaserJock_> I think it's no so much a matter of quantity but quality
[01:50] <bddebian> TheMuso: Because that would be the smart thing to do ;-P
[01:51] <jdong> pwnguin: only if you want it to actually work
[01:51] <pwnguin> heh
[01:51] <bddebian> I never know how radically to change packages
[01:51] <jdong> pwnguin: as much as people say it works fine with Fedora patches and GNU GCJ.... I frankly don't buy it
[01:51] <jdong> pwnguin: the only properly functioning Azureus I've ever seen is with Sun Java
[01:51] <pwnguin> it woriks fanfuckingtasically from the tarball
[01:51] <TheMuso> bddebian: Well what you said about moving it sounds VERY VERY crackful to me.
[01:51] <pwnguin> and sun java
[01:51] <pwnguin> well actually
[01:51] <pwnguin> i take that back
[01:51] <jdong> pwnguin: exactly...
[01:52] <pwnguin> Ubuntu's package will cause hotspot to crash
[01:52] <bddebian> TheMuso: I agree.  Another point about Debian packages.. ;-)
[01:52] <pwnguin> which is an accomplishment, really
[01:52] <jdong> pwnguin: something borkens when it's compiled from source with GCJ
[01:52] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: As a group, what do you think we lack in terms of knowledge?
[01:52]  * pwnguin hats off to azureus packager
[01:52] <jdong> pwnguin: I'll have to set up a Fedora 8 VM sometime to fool with their stability...
[01:52] <Kmos> deluge-torrent does the job for me :)
[01:53] <pwnguin> jdong: a massive problem is this native ui patchset
[01:53] <jdong> pwnguin: last time I tried was FC6 and it was actually quite nice... a tad slower than Sun Java's Azureus but at least everything worked.
[01:53] <pwnguin> azureus is the only tool that i can game the system enough with =)
[01:54] <LaserJock_> TheMuso: programming knowledge is some of it
[01:54] <pwnguin> heh
[01:54] <LaserJock_> we need to be able to actively patch and be able to review patches
[01:54] <pwnguin> i dont see how motu can require programming knowledge when core dev doesnt
[01:54] <LaserJock_> core dev doesn't?
[01:55] <pwnguin> ive seen a few admit they cant
[01:55] <LaserJock_> well, that's not exactly true
[01:55] <LaserJock_> I'd admit it
[01:55] <LaserJock_> but that doesn't mean I don't know *anything*
[01:55] <LaserJock_> I need to know more
[01:55]  * TheMuso can read and understand shell scripts, a little bit of perl, most C, and pretty much no C++.
[01:55] <pwnguin> but does mean you might know enough
[01:55] <TheMuso> and some python
[01:56] <LaserJock_> well, we are working on *source* packages
[01:56] <LaserJock_> we are working on the instructions on building software
[01:56] <TheMuso> yep indeed.
[01:56] <LaserJock_> you can do a fair amount without programming experience
[01:57] <LaserJock_> but I think at some point, if you want to be effective you gotta have that experience
[01:57] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: Actually, another thing that would be good to know is how to interpret stack traces from apport.
[01:57] <pwnguin> heh
[01:57] <LaserJock_> exactly
[01:57] <LaserJock_> I'm totally clueless when it comes to apport
[01:57] <pwnguin> how does that even work?
[01:57] <TheMuso> Likewise.
[01:57] <LaserJock_> I have no idea about debugging symbols etc.
[01:58] <pwnguin> i wonder if anyone besides keybuk knows wtf to do with apport
[01:58] <LaserJock_> in short, I think a lot of MOTU is just incapable of being anything but paperwork shufflers
[01:58] <TheMuso> If I knew how to read a stack trace for a C program, chances are I could then fix it.
[01:58] <pwnguin> LaserJock_: and i think a lot of people would rather be writing code than signing up to shuffle paper in MOTU
[01:58] <TheMuso> On the other hand, a while back, I actually coded a patch to fix endianness issues in a package.
[01:59] <pwnguin> how is a stack trace hard to read?
[01:59] <pwnguin> it's basically the nest of function calls
[01:59] <TheMuso> pwnguin: For someone who knows how to read them, thats easy to say.
[01:59] <LaserJock_> yeah, I don't have a clue what it's doing
[01:59] <TheMuso> Try looking at one of the text files apport retracer produces.
[01:59] <pwnguin> bug #?
[02:00] <TheMuso> I know function calls when I see them, but thats about it.
[02:00] <TheMuso> Then, things get more complicated when threads are involved.
[02:00] <pwnguin> yes
[02:00] <pwnguin> its a miracle it works at all
[02:01] <pwnguin> i imagine apport is supposed to be used with gdb or some such
[02:01]  * sistpoty needs to go to bed... gn8 everyone
[02:01] <TheMuso> Night sistpoty.
[02:01] <TheMuso> c
[02:01] <TheMuso> ugh
[02:02] <TheMuso> pwnguin: Given time, I could work out stack traces, but I think a session by one experienced with them for MOTUs is an absolute must.
[02:02] <LaserJock_> then there's upstream knowledge
[02:02] <TheMuso> We get a lot of apport crash bugs filed, and we tend not to deal with them mostly.
[02:02] <LaserJock_> and tool knowledge
[02:02] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: Yes indeed.
[02:02] <pwnguin> LaserJock_: i think upstream knowledge is a steep requirement given the MOTU concept
[02:03] <TheMuso> Autoconf/automake stack is another problem at times.
[02:03] <pwnguin> god
[02:03] <TheMuso> pwnguin: At least knowing build frameworks is a need to know.
[02:03] <pwnguin> i so hate autoconf
[02:03] <LaserJock_> pwnguin: we're supposed to be working with upstreams though
[02:03] <TheMuso> Well, the fact is that most projects use it.
[02:03] <LaserJock_> moving bugs upstream
[02:04]  * TheMuso has seen many crap autoconf setups in his time
[02:04] <TheMuso> And, I've seen very very good ones.
[02:04] <pwnguin> well, sure. but what i mean is rather than simply being familiar with upstream, you should have the ability to navigate the upstream landscape
[02:04] <pwnguin> ie never know who you'll be dealing with next and still feel comfortable
[02:04] <LaserJock_> well, kinda
[02:05] <TheMuso> brb
[02:05] <LaserJock_> but we've got a whole lotta bugs that we're not going to be able to fix
[02:06] <LaserJock_> so, I guess my point is that maybe  a focus on MOTU education would be the way to go
[02:06] <TheMuso> back
[02:06] <LaserJock_> you don't have to be a uberhacker to be a MOTU
[02:06] <pwnguin> so they can start fixing bugs upstream hasnt?
[02:06] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: I'm behind you here.
[02:06] <LaserJock_> but you don't stop learning once you've become a MOTU
[02:06] <TheMuso> aint that the truth.
[02:06] <LaserJock_> making MOTU should just be the beginning :-)
[02:07]  * TheMuso went for MOTU, with the full intension of becoming a core-dev one day.
[02:07] <LaserJock_> pwnguin: well, we have to evaluate if it's an upstream bug to start with
[02:07] <LaserJock_> and if we should/could do a fix in Ubuntu first
[02:08] <LaserJock_> a MOTU should be roughly on par with a DD
[02:08] <pwnguin> ouch
[02:08] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: Roughly on par, I'd say the same as.
[02:08] <LaserJock_> well, it's a bit hard to make a direct comparision
[02:08] <jmg> LaserJock_: are you talking about a full motu, with uploader rivilege?
[02:08] <jmg> or any motu?
[02:08] <pwnguin> this is what i mean
[02:08] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: Yes, but I mean in terms of quality of work
[02:08] <LaserJock_> jmg: a MOTU is a Universe uploader
[02:08] <pwnguin> there's a conflict of defintions out there
[02:08] <LaserJock_> TheMuso: agreed
[02:09] <jmg> ok
[02:09] <pwnguin> plenty of people are willing to take part in a process where someone else has to review the package before its taken
[02:09] <TheMuso> Another thing I think needs talking about, is dealing with shared libs, sonames, and the rest.
[02:09] <LaserJock_> TheMuso: exactly
[02:09] <jmg> is someone writing a book? :)
[02:10] <pwnguin> there's already two
[02:10]  * TheMuso should read that shared libs guide again
[02:10] <pwnguin> debian new maint guide and debian-policy
[02:10] <LaserJock_> the other aspect of this though
[02:10] <LaserJock_> pwnguin: and the Ubuntu Packaging Guide
[02:10] <pwnguin> yes
[02:10] <TheMuso> !shlibs
[02:10] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about shlibs - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[02:10] <TheMuso> gah anybody got that url for the shared libs guide?
[02:10] <jmg> i mean, a really comprehensive book
[02:10] <LaserJock_> is that if you have a good team of high-quality MOTUs then it becomes a good place for people to learn packaging
[02:11] <LaserJock_> and sponsoring is smooth
[02:11] <LaserJock_> et.c
[02:11] <LaserJock_> *etc.
[02:11] <jmg> !revu
[02:11] <ubotu> REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
[02:12] <pwnguin> one thing about MOTU that makes it challenging versus debian is that as a debian packager you often have a good clue of what you've mangled compared to upstream
[02:13] <pwnguin> quilt and dpatch help make patching source more obvious i think
[02:15] <LaserJock_> pwnguin: yeah, true
[02:16] <pwnguin> so whats the story with sun java 7?
[02:16] <pwnguin> people moaning about nonfree build deps, is that fixed yet?
[02:18] <bddebian> Damn I hate Debian being on OFTC :)
[02:18] <LaserJock_> and gnome on gimpnet
[02:19] <pwnguin> was there a purpose behind debian leaving oftc?
[02:19] <pwnguin> hiding from users?
[02:20] <StevenK> Firstly, it left Freenode, not OFTC.
[02:20] <pwnguin> oops
[02:20] <pwnguin> yea
[02:20] <pwnguin> leaving FOR oftc
[02:20] <StevenK> The main reason was lilo (the person) kept messaging all users asking them to donate money
[02:21] <LaserJock_> Ubuntu almost left for oftc as well
[02:21] <StevenK> And most developers got sick of this, so we held a vote.
[02:21] <bddebian> Really?  I thought they got sick of all the netsplits?
[02:21] <LaserJock_> StevenK: that's all?
[02:21] <StevenK> And netsplits, right.
[02:21] <bddebian> though I have seen more of those on oftc that freenode in recent history ;-)
[02:22] <ScottK> bddebian: That's a benifit of Debian on OFTC then twice the chance to enjoy netsplits.
[02:22] <ScottK> Here and on OFTC
[02:22] <LaserJock_> lol
[02:22] <bddebian> ScottK: heh
[02:22] <StevenK> I'm interested in why Ubuntu nearly jumped to OFTC, but I'm late for lunch.
[02:22] <bddebian> Later
[02:22] <LaserJock_> StevenK: some issues with Canonical, and being close to Debian
[02:24] <bddebian> Goddamn getting help on Debian is like pulling teeth
[02:25]  * pwnguin recalls once being asked not to mention #debian-devel in #debian
[02:26] <mekius> pwnguin: probably a good thing ;)
[02:26] <pwnguin> well, it always feels like DDs hide from users to me
[02:26] <ajmitch> think of how many users think that there should be an exception to the 'no support' rule, just for their problem
[02:27] <pwnguin> i still dont know what support IS
[02:27] <pwnguin> ive filed bugs against universe packages, i hope its no sin
[02:28] <LaserJock_> pwnguin: ?
[02:28] <ajmitch> filing bugs is expected & encouraged
[02:37] <LaserJock_> hi persia
[02:37] <persia> Hey LaserJock_
[02:37] <ScottK> Heya persia.
[02:38] <persia> hi ScottK
[02:38] <LaserJock_> heah ScottK
[02:38] <ScottK> Hi there LaserJock_.
[02:39] <imbrandon> pwnguin: you are jldugger correct ?
[02:39] <LaserJock_> hi imbrandon
[02:39] <imbrandon> heya LaserJock_
[02:39] <imbrandon> and persia ScottK
[02:40] <imbrandon> and ajmitch , hell *
[02:40] <imbrandon> ;)
[02:40] <persia> Good evening imbrandon
[02:40] <ScottK> Hi there imbrandon
[02:40] <ajmitch> wow, I rate in a greeting
[02:40] <bddebian> Heya imbrandon :)
[02:40] <imbrandon> ajmitch: lol
[02:40]  * ajmitch is overwhelmed
[02:40] <bddebian> heh
[02:40] <ScottK> Hello there ajmitch
[02:41]  * ajmitch is going to have to go off & rest, can't handle all this attention
[02:41] <ajmitch> or it's because I'm sick of being online today, and I feel like going & reading a book :)
[02:42] <imbrandon> heh
[02:42] <LaserJock_> ajmitch: pfft
[02:42] <LaserJock_> reading
[02:43] <imbrandon> bddebian: there is sekrit talk iirc of freenode and oftc merging anyhow as of late
[02:43] <LaserJock_> now that lilo is gone?
[02:43] <LaserJock_> or would was that talk before?
[02:43] <imbrandon> yea, its been mentioned a few times from the high ups in the staffer chans
[02:43] <imbrandon> lately
[02:44] <imbrandon> and afaik there has even been talk to the oftc people about it a tad bit
[02:44] <LaserJock_> it'd be nice if all the FLOSS projects were on the same network
[02:44] <imbrandon> but thats all hear say from a lowly "level one" freenode staffer ( myself )
[02:45] <persia> Does that mean freenode would enable SSL?
[02:45] <ScottK> One irc network to rule them all.
[02:45] <imbrandon> persia: no idea
[02:46] <imbrandon> stargate atlantis is on tonight , w00t, thats all thats on my mind
[02:46] <imbrandon> heh
[02:46] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: what a geek
[02:46] <imbrandon> lol
[02:46] <imbrandon> stargate and heroes is all i watch on tv
[02:46]  * TheMuso needs to see seasons 2 and 3 before eve considering 4. :p
[02:46] <imbrandon> and mostly i dvr those
[02:46] <LaserJock_> heroes is pretty good
[02:46] <TheMuso> Not that we have season 4 here at all.
[02:47] <LaserJock_> I've been watching Chuck and Bionic Woman lately
[02:47] <LaserJock_> I do comedy more than scifi
[02:48] <imbrandon> TheMuso: that sucks *cough*torrent*cough*
[02:48] <TheMuso> imbrandon: I'd rather DVDs thanks.
[02:48] <imbrandon> chuck was "OK" i only seen the pilot, looked cheesy
[02:48] <TheMuso> And I don't have the quota to spare.
[02:49] <imbrandon> TheMuso: you watch sg-1 too ?
[02:49] <imbrandon> seen all 10 seasons ?
[02:49] <TheMuso> imbrandon: Yep, waiting for season 10 to come out here on DVD.
[02:49] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: it's kinda cheesy, but not overly, IMO
[02:49] <TheMuso> I've seen up to season 9
[02:49] <TheMuso> So I've got seasons 1-9 on DVD.
[02:49] <imbrandon> TheMuso: ahh rockin, season 10 is the best one since season 6
[02:50] <imbrandon> 7 8 9 sucked imho
[02:50] <TheMuso> The end of 7 was cool, and parts of 8 and 9, but the rest were average for the most part, agreed.
[02:50] <LaserJock_> I think I'd rather watch 24
[02:50] <imbrandon> i cant wait for the movies, they said there will be 2, one to wrap up the 10th season and one totaly new one
[02:51] <TheMuso> Yeah same here.
[02:51] <TheMuso> Sucks being an Aussie sometimes. :p
[02:51] <TheMuso> But the wait is worth it.
[02:51] <imbrandon> i've been hooked on stargate since the original movie, before sg-1
[02:51] <LaserJock_> TheMuso: sucks being broke ;-)
[02:51] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: I did like the movie. sg-1 I can take it or leave it
[02:51] <TheMuso> imbrandon: I've got that on DVD also. I wouldn't consider myself an absolute stargate junky, but I do enjoy watching them.
[02:52]  * imbrandon is a total junkie ;)
[02:52] <TheMuso> I've got a friend who is willing to pay top dollar to get VIP ticket for the conventions that come out here.
[02:52] <TheMuso> I'm not that bad.
[02:52] <TheMuso> I just watch and enjoy.
[02:52] <imbrandon> heh , that and star trek too but those are all off air and i think i've seen every TNG and Enterprise epsidode 10 times
[02:52] <TheMuso> heh
[02:53] <TheMuso> I'm probably more a starwars junky than stargate, but still love stargate.
[02:53] <TheMuso> Read most of the starwars books.
[02:53] <imbrandon> infact all my servers and computers here at home are named after star trek ships ;)
[02:53] <TheMuso> And the books IMO are better than the movies.
[02:53] <TheMuso> Oh god.
[02:53] <imbrandon> lol
[02:54]  * imbrandon uses irc from hood
[02:54] <LaserJock_> TheMuso: yeah, it's that bad ;-)
[02:54] <LaserJock_> TheMuso: I'm sure we can find some imbrandon pics from Trekkie conventions
[02:55] <imbrandon> you think thats bad, my old employer named servers after star wars planets, courscant,kashyyyk,tatooine etc and the dns server and backup dns server names were itchy and scratchy ;)
[02:55] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: you got KDE translated into klingon
[02:55] <imbrandon> LaserJock_: hahaha
[02:55] <imbrandon> LaserJock_: actualy i've never been to a trek convention
[02:55] <imbrandon> ( or stargate / starwars )
[02:56]  * LaserJock_ feels relieved
[02:56] <LaserJock_> I was gonna have to draft up a letter to the TB
[02:56] <imbrandon> i still love the itchy and scratchy dns server names
[02:56] <LaserJock_> "can easily be bribed to upload viruses by Mt. Dew or Trek memorabilia"
[02:56] <imbrandon> ahahahahaha
[02:57] <imbrandon> mt dew maybe, corona definately :)
[02:58] <imbrandon> i actualy have a "Gate" ( working ) that is ontop of my land "Kubuntu Towers" in SecondLife , lol
[02:58] <LaserJock_> oh my
[02:58] <imbrandon> ( right beside the ubuntu pyrmid on OSS island )
[02:58] <LaserJock_> I wish I had a computer at how that would run Second Life
[02:58] <LaserJock_> the only thing I've been able to use is my iMac at work
[02:58] <imbrandon> hehe
[02:59] <imbrandon> there is an osx client
[02:59] <LaserJock_> and well, Second Life is kinda hard to justify at work
[02:59] <imbrandon> afaik
[02:59] <LaserJock_> even if it was for chemistry
[02:59] <LaserJock_> yeah, I know, I did try it out
[02:59] <imbrandon> i thought your lappy was semi powerfull ?
[02:59] <LaserJock_> pfft
[02:59] <imbrandon> it dont take much to run SL
[02:59] <LaserJock_> it's a 2.6GHz celeron with an ATI 7000 IGP
[03:00] <LaserJock_> my desktop I think will run it kinda ok
[03:00] <imbrandon> yea it should work fine, i use lass than that for my SL computer ( a G3 800mhz with 640mb ram and a ATI 7xxx card onboard )
[03:00] <LaserJock_> really?
[03:00] <LaserJock_> hmm
[03:00] <imbrandon> yea
[03:00] <LaserJock_> maybe I'll give it a try
[03:01] <LaserJock_> a group I work with has created a Chemistry education and chemoinformatics area
[03:01] <imbrandon> i think its a 7200, not sure, i'll ahve to look
[03:01] <LaserJock_> one of the profs uses SL to do chemistry quizzes
[03:01] <imbrandon> there is a whole FLOSS island with lots of ubuntu stuff and a ubuntu ( and ubuntu-developers ) groups
[03:02] <imbrandon> and i put up a "Kubuntu Towers" building a few months ago, its a 7 story tower
[03:02] <imbrandon> man i get this room way way OT real easy
[03:02] <LaserJock_> I don't particularly get the point of SL, but it seems like some people seem to get a lot out of it
[03:03] <imbrandon> i do it for the $$, i actualy make money selling icecast streams in-game
[03:03] <imbrandon> i dont "play" much anymore
[03:03] <LaserJock_> interesting
[03:03] <LaserJock_> that's kinda weird
[03:04] <imbrandon> and lindens translate into real $$ , 1000 lindens == approx $5 usd, depending on the trading index
[03:05] <LaserJock_> I should find some ways of making some change online
[03:05] <imbrandon> i normaly make about 5000 lindens a day on a good day
[03:05] <imbrandon> minimum 10k a week
[03:05] <LaserJock_> I'd love to be able to pay for hosting and maybe some misc. stuff
[03:05] <imbrandon> so i dont get rich, but its worth the time i put in to make the automated scripts ;)
[03:05] <LaserJock_> yeah
[03:06] <LaserJock_> that's not so bad actually
[03:06] <imbrandon> and honestly my adsense on my website pays for my webhosting
[03:06] <imbrandon> but not much more
[03:06] <LaserJock_> I don't like ads, but if I found a good way to make some money it'd be nice
[03:06] <LaserJock_> my uncle makes around $700/month off of his site from ads
[03:07] <imbrandon> i just have the one small bar on the left on my site, i dont think its tooo obtrusive
[03:07] <TheMuso> If SL was accessible, I'd probably give it a go.
[03:07] <LaserJock_> TheMuso: man, I've got 20/20 vision with my contacts and I got all confused ;-)
[03:07] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: lo
[03:07] <TheMuso> lol
[03:08] <imbrandon> heh
[03:08] <imbrandon> well its opensource ( the client ) so it could be made accessable i supose
[03:08] <imbrandon> dunno how though
[03:08] <TheMuso> With great difficulty.
[03:08] <TheMuso> I would think.
[03:08] <LaserJock_> "turn left ... turn left ... oops too far"
[03:08] <imbrandon> there is even some opensource servers too but they are real immature atm
[03:09] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: lol
[03:09] <imbrandon> the client is "official" but the servers are all reverse engneered
[03:10] <imbrandon> anyhow time to watch stargate, back in about an hour
[03:10] <TheMuso> imbrandon: have fun
[03:10] <imbrandon> btw , gameboy emu on a old Palm VIIx ( with Palm OS 3.5 ) rocks
[03:10] <imbrandon> hehe ok , i'm out
[03:11] <TheMuso> heh
[03:11] <LaserJock_> oh wow, MS Office 2008 for mac is close to coming out
[03:12] <TheMuso> Meh. Why bother. :p
[03:12] <LaserJock_> I'd love to get Leopard+Office 2008 by my birthday ;-)
[03:13]  * TheMuso is interested in Leopard for its accessibility features. Tiger still has features that I think could be duplicated elsewhere.
[03:13] <jdong> Leopard looks interesting, I might purchase the upgrade for my macbook
[03:13] <LaserJock_> TheMuso: because my work computer has an Intel processor and Office is really slow and buggy
[03:13] <jdong> as right now I've mostly given up on making Ubuntu power consumption rival OS X on this machine
[03:13] <TheMuso> Yeah well the previous version of Office is PPC only afaik.
[03:13] <LaserJock_> yep
[03:13] <LaserJock_> so it runs, but slower
[03:13] <jdong> even in an extreme case powertopping down to 4 wakeups/sec and throttling the CPU 50%, I was unable to get power consumption down to OS X's 9.0W
[03:14] <TheMuso> jdong: youch.
[03:14] <LaserJock_> and my Excel data analysis can lock up my computer
[03:14] <TheMuso> jdong: I wonder what OS X does then.
[03:14] <jdong> TheMuso: I think there MUST be some device on the motherboard that OS X can place in a lower power state
[03:14] <LaserJock_> TheMuso: turns on the super sekret backup battery that they don't tell you about
[03:15] <TheMuso> jdong: Fun.
[03:15] <TheMuso> LaserJock_: lol
[03:15] <Burgundavia> Wakeups-from-idle per second : 447.0
[03:15] <jdong> TheMuso: Apple's laptops got that PMU chip thing that's apparently capable of regulating power flow to most devices.... and Linux doesn't have a driver to touch it
[03:15] <TheMuso> Is there being one worked on?
[03:15] <jdong> TheMuso: 2.6.23 can read the PMU's battery stats, but nothing else
[03:15] <TheMuso> jdong: Do intel Apple devices use ACPI?
[03:15] <TheMuso> jdong: Right.
[03:15] <jdong> TheMuso: Intel apple devices support an ACPI interface...
[03:16] <jdong> but I don't think that's the primary interface OS X uses
[03:16] <TheMuso> Right.
[03:16] <jdong> I have confidence that Linux will eventually unlock the secret....
[03:16] <jdong> but for now I see no reason to go from 5:30 battery life to 3:20 just to run Ubuntu
[03:16] <TheMuso> I'd agree with that.
[03:17] <jdong> most of my daily workflow involves ssh'ing into another box via terminal anyway...
[03:17] <LaserJock_> yep
[03:17] <jdong> if it works, it works. I'm not a zealot by much...
[03:17]  * TheMuso was pondering an apple notebook for his next notebook, i.e when this one dies. Unless that gets sorted, its likely not to be now. :)
[03:17] <jdong> TheMuso: not that a macbook is a *bad* laptop for ubuntu
[03:18] <jdong> TheMuso: 3:30 battery life on a laptop is about average, I'd say; and almost everything else works OOTB
[03:18] <TheMuso> jdong: Of course not, but I'd want max battery life.
[03:18] <jdong> :)
[03:18] <TheMuso> So if OS X can deliver that...
[03:18] <jdong> I've yet to have a major complaint about OS X
[03:18] <jdong> though honestly I use it more like *nix than like a Mac
[03:18] <LaserJock_> I quit like it
[03:18] <TheMuso> Heh I'm sure.
[03:18]  * persia complains about focus-follows-mouse
[03:19] <jdong> 6 tiled terminals, X server always up...
[03:19] <jdong> heck I even use gtkpod to manage my iPod!
[03:19] <LaserJock_> really? heh
[03:19] <TheMuso> jdong: lol
[03:19] <LaserJock_> I'm struggling with iTunes
[03:19] <jdong> LaserJock_: yeah. I am not amused by the ways iTunes likes to restrict you
[03:19] <pwnguin> ... right click?
[03:19] <jdong> even something as SIMPLE as copying all the files from an iPod into the library
[03:19] <TheMuso> jdong: The need tabbed terminal windows.
[03:19] <TheMuso> they
[03:19] <jdong> TheMuso: iTerm
[03:19] <pwnguin> macbooks present a small problem when we demo them with ubuntu
[03:20] <TheMuso> jdong: ah
[03:20] <pwnguin> they have one big button for the mouse
[03:20] <jdong> pwnguin: right click can be worked around by using synaptics to define two and three finger tap
[03:20] <pwnguin> jdong: which nobody remebers when they just throw in a liveCD
[03:21] <jdong> pwnguin: that is true; but that's a general Ubuntu problem IMO. Stock configuration of the touchpads across the board are quite mediocre
[03:21] <ScottK> tonyyarusso: Kompozer starts with a K, how come it isn't integrated with KDE?
[03:21] <jdong> pwnguin: but IIRC multi-finger tap is on by default. 2 for middle, 3 for right
[03:21] <ScottK> ;-)
[03:22] <TheMuso> One thing that appeals to me about getting an apple notebook next, is that Apple's software is actually deacent, and the OS has everything the notebook needs. Every windows notebook however, has crap from the manufacturer, that clogs it up.
[03:22] <pwnguin> imbrandon: yes
[03:22] <LaserJock_> ScottK: lol
[03:22] <pwnguin> imbrandon: i just haven't set up a bot to reserve the nick ;)
[03:22] <TheMuso> I don't see the need for manufacturers to extend/screw acpi in bad ways for example.
[03:23] <pwnguin> well, what if they published before the spec?
[03:23] <TheMuso> pwnguin: Its not just power management/acpi.
[03:23] <jdong> TheMuso: apple hardware is also fairly standardized and you're much more likely to find someone else with the same specs as you
[03:23] <pwnguin> i hear toshiba's oddities derive from having something useful before ACPI
[03:24] <TheMuso> jdong: Thats certainly another point I've considered as well.
[03:24] <jdong> TheMuso: plus, I honestly think Apple has a higher-quality construction than 90% of the systems out there...
[03:24] <jdong> my parents have $2500 Precision M90's from Dell and I am unimpressed with the build quality and parts chosen
[03:24] <TheMuso> Yeah well, its Dell.
[03:25] <jdong> lol :) indeed
[03:25] <TheMuso> My ThinkPad R50 is of a solid enough construction that I'm happy with it.
[03:25] <jdong> cheap dell + accidental damage protection is the way to go
[03:25] <jdong> TheMuso: when I said 90%, I was reserving the 10% for the thinkpad line :)
[03:25] <TheMuso> And I paid AUD$2600 for it at the time
[03:25] <TheMuso> jdong: Right.
[03:25] <pwnguin> im reasonably satisfied with this toshiba
[03:25] <LaserJock_> my toshiba stinks
[03:26] <LaserJock_> my first laptop
[03:26] <pwnguin> they dont do removable batteries
[03:26] <jdong> TheMuso: a lot of people around here have expensive thinkpads... they're cool, but I honestly can't justify spending the extra money for it :(
[03:26] <LaserJock_> I almost bought an ibook
[03:26] <pwnguin> but other than that, its got a lot of the same stuff the thinkpads do
[03:26] <TheMuso> jdong: Yeah but Apple's aren't cheap either.
[03:26] <pwnguin> hdapms, fingerprint, tablet. nice keyboard
[03:26] <jdong> TheMuso: when I was shopping for that laptop, I was down between a Macbook or a Thinkpad with similar size and specs... macbook was $1300, thinkpad was around $2000....
[03:26] <TheMuso> Right.
[03:27] <TheMuso> I'd probably want a pro though, to get the expresscard slot. :p
[03:27] <jdong> TheMuso: I knew before making the purchase that Ubuntu would run better on the thinkpad hands down... but could not convince myself that running Ubuntu over Darwin was worth $700...
[03:27] <TheMuso> right
[03:27] <Burgundavia> jdong: apple is just as cheap as anything else
[03:28] <TheMuso> Being an audio junky, I'd want to use a card instead of a firewire/USB audio interface.
[03:28] <Burgundavia> and they are notorious for changing parts without telling anybody
[03:28] <pwnguin> ok
[03:28] <pwnguin> so we have all these laptop experts
[03:28]  * TheMuso is no expert.
[03:28] <pwnguin> why does snd-intel-hda suck so bad?
[03:28] <TheMuso> Now thats a good question.
[03:29] <tonyyarusso> ScottK: That's just a reworking of "Composer", as the base code was called in the old Mozilla Suite.  Not my fault KDE asserts control of all things involving the letter K.  :P
[03:29] <LaserJock_> I think I'm gonna have to right a Gnome app that starts with a K
[03:29] <LaserJock_> just for the fun of it
[03:29] <jdong> pwnguin: apparently it's because they didn't strictly define the CODECS enough, leading to so many incompatible implementations
[03:30] <jdong> Burgundavia: maybe I have a biased view from the machines I own...
[03:30] <jdong> Burgundavia: do you have suggestions for laptops that are not cheaply made, or change parts or introduce other incompatibilities arbitrarily?
[03:31] <Burgundavia> jdong: don't buy a computer
[03:31] <tonyyarusso> LaserJock_: KGroX - confuse everyone.  It starts with a K, but the main part of the pronouncable name is a G, and it has a capitalized X for some reason.  In reality, it's for rox.
[03:31] <jdong> Burgundavia: I guessed you might say that :)
[03:31] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: you work on telepathy, no?
[03:32] <tonyyarusso> StevenK: as well
[03:34]  * nenolod yawns, FTP mirrors still slow from gutsy upgraders
[03:35] <nenolod> question: should new packages be built against hardy or is building them against gutsy fine for now?
[03:35] <persia> nenolod: build against gutsy for now, but plan on rebuilding prior to requesting upload
[03:35]  * nenolod wants to hold off on upgrading to hardy until the new toolchain settles
[03:36] <nenolod> persia, right i knew that ;)
[03:36] <TheMuso> nenolod: Or you could just wait till hardy opens with a new toolchain.
[03:36] <nenolod> TheMuso, well i just debianised a pidgin plugin i use
[03:36] <persia> nenolod: If you want to play, try a chroot, but it's really not ready yet.
[03:36] <nenolod> TheMuso, and i was going to upload it to revu in a little bit
[03:37] <TheMuso> The number of hardy uploads so far can be counted on two hands.
[03:37] <nenolod> so i would like to build it against gutsy right now since i'm er building it to use :D
[03:37] <TheMuso> And just about all are toolchain related.
[03:37] <nenolod> ok. :P
[03:37] <persia> nenolod: If nothing else, that will make it very easy for backporters :)
[03:37] <nenolod> no point in backporting it
[03:37] <nenolod> the players in gutsy don't support MPRIS except bmpx
[03:38] <TheMuso> MPRIS?
[03:38] <nenolod> (the plugin in question is pidgin-mpris, which uses mpris to query the now playing track in a MPRIS-compliant player)
[03:38] <TheMuso> ah
[03:38] <nenolod> TheMuso, Media Player Remote Interface Specification
[03:38] <TheMuso> One can do that stuff with mpd already.
[03:38] <nenolod> yeah. it's the same concept.
[03:38] <TheMuso> Right.
[03:38] <nenolod> there's also a pidgin plugin for rhythmbox
[03:39] <TheMuso> I'm not fussed on people spewing their currently playing song actually.
[03:39] <nenolod> TheMuso, there's a pidgin plugin for audacious 1.3 too, but audacious 1.4 uses MPRIS protocol instead
[03:39] <nenolod> ;)
[03:39] <TheMuso> I find it irritating.
[03:39] <nenolod> TheMuso, ah. what this does is set it as your available message like on iChat on MacOS with iTunes
[03:39] <nenolod> that's all it does
[03:39] <nenolod> it doesn't spam anyhting ;p
[03:39] <TheMuso> Still, its irritating IMO
[03:40] <nenolod> yes. np spam sucks.
[03:40] <nenolod> i wrote something to deal with that
[03:40] <nenolod> (at least on IRC - where it seems to be most common) http://carpathia.dereferenced.org/~nenolod/rfc/ircpp-v0.3
[03:40] <TheMuso> Well I'm not bothered, as I don't join channels where thats likely to occurr.
[03:42] <TheMuso> lol. I don't believe it. On a forum here in Australia, theres already a discussion about OS X 10.6
[03:42] <persia> Decibel does it as well, no?
[03:44] <LaserJock_> TheMuso: I agree, the music thing is annoying ;-)
[03:44] <soundofpillows>  yeha
[03:44] <soundofpillows> yeah*
[03:45] <nenolod> it's more annoying when they put a bunch of colours and control codes in it
[03:45] <soundofpillows>  they should change it
[03:45] <nenolod> they should just be shot
[03:46] <nenolod> it's like the IRC version of a Gentoo user
[03:46] <nenolod> :(
[03:46] <LaserJock_> lol
[03:46] <nenolod> COLOURS MAKE IT GO FAST^W^WBE MORE COOL
[03:46] <soundofpillows> lol
[03:46] <LaserJock_> "my use flags are bigger than yours"
[03:46] <nenolod> oh yeah?
[03:46] <soundofpillows> nah it would be better  w/o so moany colors
[03:47] <nenolod> USE="∞"
[03:47] <nenolod> is that so?
[03:47] <soundofpillows> yes
[03:47] <LaserJock_> soundofpillows: get a real OS ;-)
[03:47] <nenolod> (that was supposed to be the UTF-8 infinity symbol)
[03:47] <LaserJock_> nenolod: that's what it is here
[03:48] <nenolod> some gentoo user would just do
[03:48] <nenolod> USE="∞+1"
[03:48] <nenolod> my useflags are still bigger !
[03:49] <soundofpillows> same here
[03:49] <nenolod> there's a few clueful gentoo users. they do exist.
[03:49] <nenolod> i know all 20 of them.
[03:50] <nenolod> i can count them on my fingers and toes!
[03:50] <LaserJock_> I was a gentoo user for 2 years
[03:50] <nenolod> i used gentoo when debian's future was uncertain
[03:50] <LaserJock_> then I just got tired of compiling
[03:50] <LaserJock_> so I moved to Ubuntu
[03:50] <bddebian> Debian's future was uncertain?
[03:50] <LaserJock_> and spend most of my time compiling
[03:50] <soundofpillows> LaserJock_: Windows up in the house!!!!!
[03:50] <nenolod> then i got a girlfriend
[03:50] <RAOF> tonyyarusso: Kinda.  Telepathy's one of my interests, certainly.
[03:51] <LaserJock_> soundofpillows: watch it, I'll ban you ;-)
[03:51] <soundofpillows> c# 0000ff ello
[03:51] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: I was wondering how much of its goals are done and how much is left.  Is it almost complete, just barely getting going, somewhere in between?
[03:51] <nenolod> bddebian, Debian 3.1 times had issues. :P
[03:51] <nenolod> bddebian, then debian got hit with a brick of sanity again, and they got etch out the door
[03:52] <soundofpillows> LaserJock_: I hate it when people are discriminating me because i'm black
[03:52] <nenolod> soundofpillows, i discriminate against you because you're a smelly human
[03:52] <nenolod> oh wait. so am i.
[03:52] <nenolod> crap. :(
[03:52] <bddebian> I know about Debian's history, but I'm not sure I was say that their future was uncertain because of that
[03:53] <nenolod> bddebian, it seemed uncertain to me at the time.
[03:53] <nenolod> so i decided to try gentoo
[03:53] <nenolod> it was all the rage
[03:53] <soundofpillows> LaserJock_: smelly peinguins arent any better
[03:53] <bddebian> ah
[03:54] <nenolod> then i decided gentoo was stupid, and tried slackware
[03:54] <nenolod> and i used slackware for few years
[03:54] <soundofpillows> i'd have to prefer windows over ubuntu
[03:54]  * ScottK returns and wonders what the heck is going on.
[03:54] <soundofpillows> but i'd pick ubuntu over vista any day
[03:55] <DarkMageZ> they're telling their life stories
[03:55] <nenolod> then i tried gentoo again because of switching to amd64, then stuck with it, then switched to ubuntu around 7.04
[03:55] <nenolod> ;p
[03:55] <LaserJock_> DarkMageZ: back in my day ...
[03:55] <nenolod> i used debian 2.2 on m68k :P
[03:55] <LaserJock_> anybody got ops in here?
[03:56] <soundofpillows> i gots tons of ops
[03:56] <rob> yes..
[03:56] <rob> LaserJock_, what's up?
[03:56] <nenolod> hey rob
[03:56] <rob> hi nenolod
[03:56] <soundofpillows> rob: long time no see
[03:57] <rob> soundofpillows, yeah, I don't even recall your nick :)
[03:57] <rob> (sorry)
[03:57]  * nenolod waits for pbuilder to finish
[03:58] <soundofpillows> rob: ='(|
[03:58]  * DarkMageZ waits for archive.ubuntu.com... downloading dependencies so i can rebuild cdbs
[03:58] <nenolod> DarkMageZ, i wonder if i will ever work on conspire again. i've been so busy. :(
[03:58] <rob> hey do you guys know when the mentoring-ship will start for hardy? I'm hopefully hoping to be mentored for it..
[03:58] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: still there?
[03:58] <soundofpillows> rob: duh
[03:59] <LaserJock_> DarkMageZ: that's why I updated my mirror right before release
[03:59] <soundofpillows> same here
[03:59] <soundofpillows> brb
[03:59] <nenolod> soundofpillows, i thought you ran windows
[03:59] <DarkMageZ> nenolod, yeah. i noticed the conspire channel was fairly dead. maybe it'd be easier to finish off the majority changes and push then into xchat.
[03:59]  * pwnguin thinks he runs ALICE
[03:59] <nenolod> DarkMageZ, zed thinks ipv6 is stupid
[03:59] <nenolod> DarkMageZ, :))
[04:00] <nenolod>  -> creating base tarball [/var/cache/pbuilder/base.tgz]
[04:00] <nenolod> finally.
[04:00] <LaserJock_> soundofpillows is a Vista lover that only wishes he could be cool enough to run Ubuntu
[04:00]  * rob has contributed packages before, but wants to get more involved this time around
[04:00] <nenolod> vista: that OS which has incorrect manpages
[04:00] <LaserJock_> rob: excellent
[04:00] <LaserJock_> rob: the MOTU mentoring program might be interesting
[04:01] <DarkMageZ> nenolod, hmm. i think zed needs to wake up.
[04:01] <rob> LaserJock_, yeah, that's exactly what I need I think
[04:01]  * rob heads off to the shop
[04:01] <nenolod> nenolod@petrie:~/wrk/pkg$ sudo pbuilder build pidgin-mpris_0.2.3-0ubuntu1.dsc
[04:01] <nenolod> woo.
[04:01] <DarkMageZ> nenolod, mpris?
[04:01] <nenolod> DarkMageZ, media player remote interfacing specification
[04:02] <nenolod> now, providing i didn't do anything retarded, this package should just work
[04:02] <nenolod> (i haven't needed to package anything in a few months.)
[04:03] <pwnguin> the mpris concept should die
[04:03] <nenolod> pwnguin, you should die :(
[04:03] <RAOF> tonyyarusso: Yeah, sorry, I'm still here :).  So, I use empathy instead of pidgin at the moment.  They seem pretty much feature-equivalent.
[04:03] <nenolod> pwnguin, we put a lot of effort into it
[04:03]  * pwnguin is now listening to: Angsty Teens - Not Another Heartbreak.mp3 [3:13/3:50]
[04:04] <RAOF> tonyyarusso: The voip part of Empathy doesn't seem to work well, but I haven't tested it with anyone on the other end.
[04:04] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: that's just an IM client - I'm wondering about the whole framework.  (I have some grandiose ideas in my head, and I'm wondering if it would be completely unreasonable to suggest them for Hardy)
[04:04] <RAOF> tonyyarusso: Ah.  What sort of grandiose ideas?
[04:04] <nenolod> pwnguin, why should mpris die?
[04:05]  * imbrandon returns
[04:05] <pwnguin> well, if it's a plugin to let everyone know that you listen to music
[04:05] <nenolod> pwnguin, mpris is a protocol
[04:05] <nenolod> pwnguin, for media player state to be queried
[04:05] <nenolod> pwnguin, not a plugin.
[04:05] <nenolod> pwnguin, pidgin-mpris is a plugin for that.
[04:05] <nenolod> :P
[04:05] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: Well, let's see if I can put them into words here...:  So I log onto AIM with pidgin.  Something in the background manages the connection, messages, etc., and pidgin is just an interface to it.
[04:05] <imbrandon> pwnguin: ahh i was just wondering if it was you that commented on the blog, as for the optimzations, its a one line c app, didednt think it mattered much :)
[04:06] <pwnguin> imbrandon: apparently it does :)
[04:06] <nenolod> riddle of the day: write a C program which reproduces it's own code in 20 characters or less
[04:06] <pwnguin> nenolod: its used to tell people what you're listening to, rihgt?
[04:06] <nenolod> :))
[04:06] <nenolod> pwnguin, no
[04:06] <imbrandon> pwnguin: huh ?
[04:06] <RAOF> tonyyarusso: Ah, so you mean telepathy.  Yes, this exists right now.  Empathy is that client.
[04:06] <nenolod> pwnguin, it's a generic protocol which can be used to remotely pause/stop/print/get title/etc
[04:06] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: I muck with some settings, and have to restart X.  No problem - the connections are separate from the GUI interface, so they aren't lost when I do so.  I log into Gnome again, and this time decide I want to use Empathy.  Fire up that client, and all of my connections are still there.  It even opens the conversation window I had going, with the history.
[04:07] <pwnguin> i really cant see a purpose aside from being a MOO.dll replacement
[04:08] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: Now, I'm talking to someone during a weekday, and about an hour into the conversation I realize I'm going to be late for class.  In the flurry of activity of grabbing my books and jumping in the car, I forget to mention what's going on to the person I'm talking to, or change my status.
[04:08] <nenolod> pwnguin, http://wiki.xmms2.xmms.se/index.php/Media_Player_Interfaces
[04:08] <nenolod> pwnguin, it is not some IRC toy
[04:08] <pwnguin> well pidgin is ;)
[04:08] <nenolod> pwnguin, yes, and so is pidgin-mpris. but mpris itself is not a toy.
[04:09] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: Now, that's no problem, because I set up a calendar including my class as a recurring event through Evolution.  Empathy realizes that it's time for class, sends my friend a message saying "Whoops, gotta run to Calc!", and changes my status to "Away - Calc class; back at 3"
[04:09] <pwnguin> imbrandon: -static appears to hurt a lot
[04:09] <RAOF> tonyyarusso: Right.  So, apart from the pidgin bit, I believe that the framework is in a state that you could do all this.
[04:10] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: Two weeks later I decide I'm sick of Evolution, and switch to Thunderbird.  Again, everything's done in the background and apps are just frontends on this level, so I install the Lightning extension, and poof, it loads up the calendar I had set up in Evolution.
[04:10] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: There's more ;)
[04:10] <RAOF> tonyyarusso: However, I don't think pidgin is likely to get a telepathy backend.
[04:10] <RAOF> Right.  *That's* not going to happen :)
[04:10] <tonyyarusso> grr
[04:11] <nenolod> pwnguin, wait a minute
[04:11] <imbrandon> pwnguin: well it still only take miliseconds to run and i dont want something to make tty1 not work if a lib gets fubared ( or dist-upgraded to newer libc or junk )
[04:11] <nenolod> pwnguin, people actually use pidgin's IRC support?
[04:11] <nenolod> :x
[04:11] <pwnguin> heheh
[04:11] <pwnguin> yes sadly
[04:11] <nenolod> that's too bad
[04:11] <imbrandon> pidgin has MyspaceIM support, i just noticed that today heh
[04:11] <nenolod> ew.
[04:12] <RAOF> tonyyarusso: The syncing of calendars is a bit out of telepathy's domain, really.
[04:12] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: Then, I'm going to work on a project.  I fire up GTimer, and start timing.  Empathy changes my status to "Away - working on Project X".  When I'm done and stop timing, I check a box saying the task is now complete, and it modifies it in Planner.
[04:12] <pwnguin> i just imagine that pidgin-mpris is primarily a tool to query the media player and report the results to whatever chat you're in
[04:12] <nenolod> ugh
[04:12] <tonyyarusso> then marks me as available on IM.
[04:12] <nenolod> pwnguin, basically
[04:12] <pwnguin> which was my complaint
[04:12] <pwnguin> this should be abolished
[04:12] <nenolod> pwnguin, it can also update your available message with the track
[04:12] <RAOF> (13.12.04| tonyyarus)) RAOF: Then, I'm going to work on a project.  I fire up GTimer, and start timing.  Empathy changes my status to "Away - working on Project X".  When I'm done and  stop timing, I check a box saying the task is now complete, and it modifies it in Planner.
[04:12] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: Then there should be more than telepathy made methinks.  I envision basically total desktop integration.
[04:12] <nenolod> chmod: cannot access `/tmp/buildd/pidgin-mpris-0.2.3/./configure': No such file or directory
[04:12] <nenolod> ugh. i forgot. i have to run autogen.sh.
[04:12]  * RAOF should stop playing with his trackpad.
[04:13] <imbrandon> RAOF: lol
[04:13] <imbrandon> external mice ftw
[04:13] <pwnguin> psh
[04:13] <RAOF> tonyyarusso: Desktop integration is cool.  However, you won't get thunderbird, firefox, etc along for the ride.
[04:13] <pwnguin> my built in wacom rocks
[04:13] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: Why not?  We can extend them.
[04:14] <imbrandon> jesus google is fast, i just published that last post 1.5 hours ago and its already indexed
[04:14] <pwnguin> imbrandon: im sure they have massive rss fetchers in addition to their crawler
[04:14] <RAOF> tonyyarusso: Well, kinda.  But they'll always have the integration bolted on, which pretty much defeats the purpose
[04:15] <imbrandon> pwnguin: tiss nice they have me on their rss list then ;)
[04:15] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: Then say I'm talking to someone on IM, and they say "Hey, wanna come over?  Saturday at 6 - my place."  That last bit gets auto-recognized as an event, I click it like a hyperlink, get a popup with some options, and add it to my calendar.  On Saturday, my IM client gives me a little message coming from my machine as the user, reminding me.
[04:15] <Hobbsee> oh, fricking hell.  third person in <24 hours.
[04:15] <imbrandon> pwnguin: but i doubt it i look at my rss feed stats more than my webstats
[04:15] <pwnguin> imbrandon: i bet the spider finds rss sources and makrs them special
[04:15] <pwnguin> or possibly just the planet's
[04:16] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: So, a bit out of our league for now?
[04:16] <imbrandon> pwnguin: well i get crawled by google once a day on avg anyhow, so maybe it was "just the right time" to post too
[04:16] <pwnguin> imbrandon: but back to the important stuff -- if you can run change the script to run autologin, why can't you just login from there?
[04:17] <imbrandon> huh ?
[04:17] <pwnguin> fork / execs are expensive
[04:17] <pwnguin> you change /etc/event.d/tty1
[04:17] <imbrandon> tbh i dident think about that, lol
[04:17] <imbrandon> probably would work
[04:18] <pwnguin> thats probably the first place i would have looked
[04:18] <pwnguin> assuming i knew how all this crap worked in the first place
[04:18] <RAOF> tonyyarusso: That sort of integration sounds feasible, but I'm not sure about using the IM client as a notifier.
[04:18] <LaserJocky_> HI
[04:18] <pwnguin> HELLO
[04:18] <imbrandon> heh, probably would be easier to change the userid that way too AND not have to install build-essential
[04:18] <LaserJock_> LaserJocky_: lowercase, we don't need shouting
[04:18] <pwnguin> heh
[04:18] <pwnguin> wth
[04:19] <tonyyarusso> RAOF: true - there's probably a better thing for that bit.  Well, I'll probably try to describe it better and beg for volunteers on Planet or something :)
[04:19] <pwnguin> this will get confusing fast
[04:19] <imbrandon> programers always look for the hard way it seems
[04:19] <imbrandon> lol
[04:19] <pwnguin> then what am i?
[04:19] <pwnguin> ive always heard it said programmers are lazy in a special way
[04:19] <imbrandon> heh well, yea , ummm that dident come out correctly
[04:19] <imbrandon> :)
[04:19] <LaserJocky_>  the small caps are not as bold
[04:20] <LaserJock_> LaserJocky_: that's the point
[04:20] <LaserJocky_> but i will live
[04:20] <imbrandon> LaserJocky_: u ok?
[04:20] <pwnguin> SCORE *** confusing nics:1 imbrandon:0
[04:20] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: split personalities
[04:20] <imbrandon> hahahah yea i just caught that
[04:20]  * imbrandon dies
[04:20] <LaserJocky_> imbrandon: i've had better days
[04:21] <imbrandon> kinda like when StevenK and ScottK are both active, it ALWAYS makes me re-read atleaste one line of IRC
[04:21] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: I always get confused on weird ones
[04:21] <leonel> what do you recommend  for  virtualization with gutsy ?
[04:21] <persia> In that case, at least tab completion isn't as tricky
[04:22] <LaserJocky_> LaserJock_: u calling me weird?!?!?!
[04:22] <imbrandon> leonel: what level ? i like OpenVZ but VBox is good too just for general stuff
[04:22] <LaserJock_> LaserJocky_: yeah, got a problem with that?
[04:22] <LaserJocky_> LaserJock_: we could catch fade right here, right now
[04:23] <pwnguin> seriously, this will be the end of IRC, right here.
[04:23]  * imbrandon blinks
[04:23] <LaserJock_> LaserJocky_: I'll throw you in the pool if you don't watch it
[04:23] <LaserJocky_> i realy think that ubuntu has quite some potential
[04:24] <pwnguin> i hope we all do
[04:24] <LaserJocky_> LaserJock_: that will be pretty hard after getting kicked in the back with ur face imprinted in the ground
[04:24] <LaserJock_> LaserJocky_: how would you know? You <3 Vista
[04:25] <LaserJocky_> oh no
[04:25] <LaserJocky_> i dont use vista
[04:25] <imbrandon> LaserJocky_ must be related to nixternal
[04:25] <pwnguin> just windows
[04:25]  * persia thinks half the conversation is missing
[04:25] <LaserJocky_> i think its the worst OS yet
[04:25] <LaserJocky_> 3.1 was better than vista
[04:25] <nixternal> !visternal
[04:25] <ubotu> Oh no!  The pointy-clicky Vista lover has arrived!  He's rumoured to be giving out free money, too!
[04:25] <pwnguin> persia: compare soundofpillow's host to laserjock's
[04:25] <nixternal> biatches :p
[04:25] <LaserJock_> LaserJocky_: pfft, you weren't old enough to use 3.1
[04:26] <imbrandon> LaserJocky_: 3.1 is older than you
[04:26] <imbrandon> :)
[04:26] <LaserJock_> LaserJocky_: ok, so you wanna learn how to package software for Ubuntu?
[04:27] <LaserJock_> pwnguin: suspicious isn't it? ;-)
[04:27] <LaserJocky_> i know every thing there is to package software for ubuntu
[04:27] <LaserJock_> *cough*
[04:27] <bddebian> :-)
[04:27] <LaserJocky_> is that a chalenge?
[04:27] <Testing> /part
[04:28] <leonel> imbrandon: vbox said  I have a too old cpu after installing gutsy guest :(
[04:28] <LaserJock_> LaserJocky_: bring it on
[04:28] <imbrandon> leonel: wow
[04:28] <imbrandon> never seen that before
[04:28] <leonel> even it's a dual core duo
[04:28] <imbrandon> seems like a bug then
[04:28] <LaserJocky_> command:ban (LaserJock_) :D
[04:28] <leonel> and did't boot
[04:28] <pwnguin> psh
[04:28] <leonel> and qemu does not work with gutsy guests..
[04:29] <leonel> or feisty guests
[04:29] <imbrandon> LaserJocky_: ok bro time to stray back onto topic
[04:29] <pwnguin> what a noob. thats not how bans work!
[04:29] <LaserJocky_> i konw "P
[04:31] <nenolod> has the revu keyring been synced lately?
[04:31] <imbrandon> nenolod: if you mean in the last 48 hours, unlikely
[04:32] <leonel> well thanks
[04:32] <nenolod> disappointing.
[04:32] <imbrandon> nenolod: need me to run a sync ?
[04:32] <nenolod> imbrandon, yeah. if you could. my GPG key is registered with launchpad (duh)
[04:32] <imbrandon> ssh imbrandon@sparky.ubuntuwire.com
[04:32] <imbrandon> err
[04:32] <imbrandon> ok
[04:32] <imbrandon> one sec
[04:33] <pwnguin> hax
[04:33] <nenolod> assuming that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU is correct, that's ally ou need right?
[04:33] <nenolod> or has it changed since REVU got chowned a while back?
[04:33] <imbrandon> as long as its on LP and you are in U-U-C
[04:33] <imbrandon> it shoudl work
[04:33] <persia> nenolod: That's still correct
[04:34] <imbrandon> erm, cruft, i forgot the script to sync the keys
[04:34]  * imbrandon thinks
[04:36] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: hmm, have you tried openbox?
[04:36] <imbrandon> LaserJock_: nah, always beena  fluxbox guy
[04:36] <imbrandon> i might try it sometime
[04:36] <LaserJock_> man, the latest release is really slick
[04:36] <imbrandon> siretart: round ?
[04:37] <Hobbsee> LaserJock_: of openbox?
[04:37] <LaserJock_> yeah
[04:37] <Hobbsee> hm
[04:37] <imbrandon> is it in gutsy ?
[04:37] <imbrandon> heya Hobbsee
[04:37] <LaserJock_> I believe so yes
[04:37] <Hobbsee> hiya imbrandon
[04:37] <LaserJock_> there's a blog post from Og Maciel about it
[04:37] <LaserJock_> from a while ago
[04:37] <imbrandon> well i've been on this 200mhz for a few days now and probably will be untill uds is over so i might try it in addition to my fluxbox
[04:38] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: whats the key sync script called on sparky? i forget
[04:38] <pwnguin> heh
[04:38] <pwnguin> imbrandon: bootcharts or it isnt happening :P
[04:38] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: is it a laptop?
[04:38] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: see ~/.bashrc
[04:38] <imbrandon> LaserJock_: nope
[04:38] <Hobbsee> for the aliases
[04:38] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: thanks
[04:38] <Ubuntu_> si
[04:38] <imbrandon> !es
[04:38] <ubotu> Si busca ayuda en Español por favor entre en los canales #ubuntu-es, #kubuntu-es o #edubuntu-es, allí obtendrá mas ayuda.
[04:39] <LaserJock_> Ubuntu_: blasphemy
[04:39] <Ubuntu_> aki
[04:39] <TheMuso> Heya Hobbsee.
[04:40] <Ubuntu_> LaserJock_ is gay
[04:40] <Ubuntu_> peace
[04:41] <imbrandon> nenolod: ok key update running, i'll poke you when its done
[04:41] <Ubuntu_> out
[04:41] <LaserJock_> hahaha
[04:41] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: carefull, he probably has the same ISP/Connection as LaserJock_ but its not him
[04:41] <imbrandon> ;)
[04:42] <bddebian> heh
[04:42] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: oh well.  any time that you're a git, you get the sharp end of my kickban stick.  if youv'e got others on your IP, then be warned, they may come beta you up
[04:42]  * Hobbsee ponders wesnoth
[04:42] <imbrandon> hehe
[04:42]  * persia recommends westnoth
[04:42]  * Hobbsee hasnt played it before, but hears others have, and it looks interesting.
[04:42]  * bddebian recomends lordsawar
[04:42] <Hobbsee> looks very age-of-empires-ish, at first glance.
[04:42] <LaserJock_> persia: how is it different?
[04:42] <bddebian> Oh, it's not in Ubuntu yet
[04:43] <pwnguin> Hobbsee: its turn based.
[04:43] <persia> bddebian: W: Unable to locate package lordsawar E: No packages found
[04:43]  * imbrandon ponders messing with openbox
[04:43] <pwnguin> liquidwar had a new release recently, after two years
[04:43] <imbrandon> LaserJock_: is it just as light as flux?
[04:43] <persia> LaserJock: No idea.  I've never played age-of-empires
[04:43] <Hobbsee> pwnguin: point.
[04:43] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: lighter
[04:43] <imbrandon> pwnguin / LaserJock_ and no its not a laptop
[04:44] <lintone> hello
[04:44] <pwnguin> lightness has a couple components
[04:44] <LaserJock_> age of empire is one of my all time favorite games
[04:44] <LaserJock_> lintone: play nice now or I'll have you kicked again
[04:44] <bddebian> persia: Aye, I just got it in to unstable :-)
[04:44] <lintone> age of empires  is da shiznit
[04:44] <pwnguin> Hobbsee: what does "point." mean?
[04:45] <Hobbsee> pwnguin: as in, "good point" or "granted", etc.  as in, i'm agreeing with you
[04:45] <imbrandon> i just "blew up" my core 2 duo 3ghz , and no money to spend on puters atm so i'm on this old relic for a few weeks, its good to keep me in perspective anyhow
[04:45] <persia> bddebian: Thanks.  I'll grab it from there :)
[04:45] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: ouch
[04:45] <LaserJock_> how'd you do that?
[04:45] <pwnguin> jebus, how do you blow up one of those?
[04:45] <lintone> doom is the best game ever
[04:45] <pwnguin> heh
[04:45] <lintone> thats why its on ipod linux
[04:46] <lintone> LaserJock_: drools over food network
[04:46] <imbrandon> a power cable got caught in the cpu fan and i dident have "auto shutoff at X temp" in the bios on
[04:46] <imbrandon> my own dumbarse mistake
[04:46] <pwnguin> is that something that normally comes disabled?
[04:46] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: :(
[04:46] <imbrandon> pwnguin: apparently on this board it was
[04:47] <lintone> that sux
[04:47] <pwnguin> heh
[04:47] <pwnguin> doh
[04:47] <imbrandon> i'm actualy suprised how productive this thing can be though
[04:47] <LaserJock_> yeah
[04:48] <imbrandon> and i do all my major builds on my database server and just remotely debsign them so it will be ok for a few weeks
[04:48] <LaserJock_> I'm really surprised how well my Athlon 1800+ still works
[04:48] <pwnguin> wait
[04:48] <pwnguin> how do you not have a newer spare?
[04:48] <imbrandon> heh i'm not made o $$
[04:48] <TheMuso> imbrandon: I used to use a dual celeron 466 as my primary workstation.
[04:48] <TheMuso> SO I know what you mean.
[04:49] <Hobbsee> hm.  pacificnet mirror is still getting hammered.
[04:49] <imbrandon> i have a crapton of computers arround here, even a xbox cluster , but nothing above 200mhz
[04:49] <LaserJock_> hehe, I think my calculator is faster than that
[04:49] <imbrandon> well the xboxes are 733mhz celerons, but the reolution on a TV sucks
[04:49] <imbrandon> resolution*
[04:49] <TheMuso> imbrandon: Their biggest bottleneck is ram.
[04:49] <TheMuso> Or lack of it.
[04:49] <persia> imbrandon: run the 200MHz machine as an Xterm for processing on the xbox :)
[04:50] <imbrandon> yea only 64mb
[04:50] <imbrandon> persia: i have serouisly considered it
[04:50] <imbrandon> but its either a xbox 733mhz with 64mb ram or a 200mhz with 128, i choose the 200
[04:50] <imbrandon> :)
[04:51] <persia> Urf.
[04:51] <LaserJock_> man, to think we tossed out a 333MHz with 128MB at work
[04:51] <LaserJock_> I could shipped it to imbrandon
[04:51] <pwnguin> heh
[04:51] <pwnguin> see
[04:51] <pwnguin> this is what i mean
[04:51] <LaserJock_> *could've
[04:51] <jsgotangco> heh
[04:52] <pwnguin> theres a huge difference between "made of cash" and "doesnt have anything newer than a 200mhz cpu as a spare
[04:52] <LaserJock_> oh trust me, there isn't really
[04:52] <imbrandon> well i had a few others but i was doing some house cleaning a few months ago and got rid of everything
[04:53] <imbrandon> cept my production computers and my servers
[04:53] <imbrandon> i just happen to have this accidently
[04:53]  * pwnguin checks the kclug postings for "free for pickup" postings from imbrandon
[04:53] <TheMuso> Old hardware still has good uses.
[04:53] <imbrandon> pwnguin: it all went via craigslist
[04:53] <TheMuso> My 466 runs xfce really nicely. It does have 768MB RAM however.
[04:53] <pwnguin> bet you wish you had that sparcstation now!
[04:53] <pwnguin> hahaha
[04:53] <imbrandon> lol yea
[04:54] <LaserJock_> I've got a sparc sitting at work
[04:54] <LaserJock_> still need to find a keyboard for it
[04:54] <imbrandon> i havent checked the kclug list in a few days, i only glance at it every few days
[04:54] <persia> LaserJock_: why?  They run great headless...
[04:54] <LaserJock_> persia: I gotta set it up
[04:54] <persia> LaserJock_: serial ports?
[04:54] <ShadowMinds> hi
[04:54] <imbrandon> LaserJock_: sparks default to serial connection if they boot with no keyboard / monitor
[04:55] <LaserJock_> what would I hook up to the serial connection?
[04:55]  * persia wishes other machines did that too
[04:55] <minghua> I feel it is easier to find a keyboard than finding a serial cable...
[04:55] <persia> LaserJock_: A null modem cable, or a dumb terminal
[04:55] <imbrandon> nother sial port on a laptop or linux box
[04:55] <imbrandon> or a wise terminal
[04:55] <persia> Or just a modem set up to handle incoming calls :)
[04:55] <LaserJock_> I don't think we've got anything serial
[04:56] <LaserJock_> it might be easier to just get a keyboard
[04:56] <ShadowMinds> I have a question maybe someone here can answer it. I just updated to Gutsy a few hours ago. I'm running a dual monitor setup. How do I get the back ground to display evenly on both screens?
[04:56] <persia> LaserJock_: In that case you might need one of the nifty USB to serial-null-modem devices.
[04:56] <imbrandon> laptop dosent have a serial port ?
[04:56] <pwnguin> ShadowMinds: half on each?
[04:56] <ShadowMinds>  currently it has half on each
[04:57] <persia> ShadowMinds: It sounds like you're looking for support, which we don't really do here.  You might try #ubuntu, or a localised channel.
[04:57] <ShadowMinds> hmm ok
[04:57] <ShadowMinds> how do i go to #ubuntu ?
[04:57] <minghua> persia: The sparc I used have USB ports.
[04:57] <imbrandon> unless it packagiong support
[04:57] <ShadowMinds> lol i just started using IRC
[04:57] <pwnguin> /join #ubuntu
[04:58] <ShadowMinds> thanks
[04:58] <persia> minghua: And no serial?  What's the default TTY if there's no console?
[04:58] <LaserJock_> minghua: lucky you ;-)
[04:58] <imbrandon> yea i wish i had my old sparc right now too, it had dual 500mhz procs and 1GB ram :)
[04:59] <LaserJock_> nice
[04:59] <LaserJock_> I think the one I've got is a single 400MHz
[04:59] <minghua> persia: I don't really know.  It uses a USB keyboard and a USB mouse, I didn't bother to check other things.
[05:00] <persia> minghua: I suspect you've a serial port on the back.  The newest I've played with is the Blade 1000, which was USB for keyboard & mouse, but still had serial, and does serial console just fine.
[05:00]  * Hobbsee smells an oncomming kickban
[05:00] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: ?
[05:00] <pwnguin> -devel
[05:01] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: -devel
[05:01] <Hobbsee> yeah
[05:01] <imbrandon> ahh i mostly only watch one chan at a time, even though i've connected to over 100 avg
[05:01] <imbrandon> lol
[05:01]  * imbrandon is lazy today
[05:01] <nenolod> i love it when people don't include configure
[05:02] <minghua> persia: I think the one I used is Blade 1000, too.  Let me check.
[05:02] <nenolod> and the way that they call autotools has to be done in especially the right way
[05:02] <nenolod> and cdbs can't do it
[05:02] <nenolod> i love overriding rules in debian/rules to work around the clueless
[05:02] <nenolod> i really really do
[05:02] <TheMuso> imbrandon: Shame on you. Even I manage to track multiple channels.
[05:02] <LaserJock_> lol
[05:02] <nenolod> TheMuso, heh. i'm on 163 channels across 10 networks
[05:02] <nenolod> :D
[05:03] <TheMuso> nenolod: ouch!!
[05:03] <imbrandon> i'm only on 2 networks and 40 chans or so atm
[05:03] <persia> nenolod: use a makebuilddir/$package:: rule to set things up just-so
[05:03] <nenolod> i had to fork xchat to make it support that amount of channels and fds
[05:03] <nenolod> persia, i overrode debian/stamp-autotools-files
[05:03] <nenolod> mostly because i wasn't aware of that
[05:04] <nenolod> :D
[05:04] <pwnguin> too many channels
[05:04] <pwnguin> no point in idling on dead channels
[05:04] <persia> nenolod: I'll recommend makebuilddir::, just because it's a published common hook, so easier for others looking at the package to understand.
[05:04] <Hobbsee> pwnguin: you're only a serious IRC'er when you have a +u
[05:04] <pwnguin> *cough* #ubuntu-laptop
[05:05]  * pwnguin guesses that means usermask?
[05:05] <persia> nenolod: More generally, take a look at https://perso.duckcorp.org/duck/cdbs-doc/cdbs-doc.xhtml#id2480675
[05:05] <minghua> Hmm, can't find what model I was using then.
[05:05] <Hobbsee> pwnguin: nah.  20 channel limit removed.
[05:06] <pwnguin> fancy networks with their nickservs and their netsplits. back when i was a kid we could take over channels and we LIKED it that way!
[05:06] <nenolod> persia, thanks. i was unaware of it.
[05:06] <imbrandon> pwnguin / Hobbsee +T6eiu is what i have 99% of the time
[05:06]  * persia wishes that waving a magic wand would cause all useful documentation to be organised in an easily accessible place
[05:06]  * Hobbsee waves the magic wand
[05:07] <imbrandon> is your pointy stick a majic wand ?
[05:07] <imbrandon> magic*
[05:07] <pwnguin> that reminds me
[05:07] <persia> Hobbsee: That didn't by any chance result in a URL being placed in your brain, whch URL you might wish to share?
[05:07] <pwnguin> i need to map my wiimote buttons to something useful
[05:07] <Hobbsee> persia: www.ubuntu.com ?
[05:07] <pwnguin> maybe like an NES controller
[05:07] <imbrandon> pwnguin: you hooked a wiimote to the computer ?
[05:08] <pwnguin> yea
[05:08] <pwnguin> dead easy
[05:08] <pwnguin> apt-get wminput
[05:08] <persia> methinks a pointy stick isn't the magic wand I had in mind.
[05:08] <imbrandon> kick arse, i thought hooking a keyboard and mouse and usb hub to a xbox was cool
[05:08] <imbrandon> lol
[05:08] <LaserJock_> persia: can you play DOOM with it? ;-)
[05:08] <imbrandon> well and my snes controller to my parallel port
[05:08] <bddebian> persia: ;-)
[05:08] <pwnguin> haha
[05:09] <pwnguin> i'd been meaning to get one of those
[05:09] <imbrandon> works great for the emu's
[05:09] <pwnguin> my laptop has parallel but not serial =/
[05:09] <imbrandon> pwnguin: i have about 10 of them already modified for the parallel port next time your in KC
[05:09] <pwnguin> anyways, the wiimote works pretty good as a powerpoint presentation tool
[05:09] <imbrandon> linux has a driver built in
[05:10] <pwnguin> imbrandon: ive been meaning to find a wireless xbox controller
[05:10] <pwnguin> i hear they work rather well
[05:10] <imbrandon> yea xbox ports and xbox controlers are just odd shaped usb devices / ports
[05:10] <pwnguin> oh
[05:10] <imbrandon> just have to wire them up right
[05:10] <pwnguin> i guess you cant really try it out on a pc that doesnt have usb
[05:11] <imbrandon> thus being able to hook a usb hub and usb key / mouse to an xbox easy
[05:11] <imbrandon> just splice one controler wire with a usb hub wire
[05:11] <pwnguin> yea, but the wireless ones?
[05:12] <imbrandon> the wireless one still has an IR reciever that hooks to the xbox, just wire that to a normal usb port
[05:12] <pwnguin> oh
[05:12]  * pwnguin wonders about the 360
[05:12] <imbrandon> err s/IR/RF/g
[05:12] <imbrandon> the 360 has true usb ports and the 360 controlers are just usb controllers
[05:12] <pwnguin> imbrandon: if you wanna get really strange, you can plug a "classic controller" into the wii
[05:13] <pwnguin> wiimote, and then use the wiimote to bluetooth the input to your bluetooth host
[05:13] <imbrandon> pwnguin: yea but is a n64 controller they mean
[05:13] <nenolod> persia, so, would i do makebuilddir/pidgin-mpris:: or makebuilddir/pidgin-mpris-0.2.3:: or makebuilddir/pidgin-mpris_0.2.3-0ubuntu1:: ?
[05:13] <pwnguin> closer to cube
[05:14] <ScottK> Hooray.  My first removal bug of the Hardy hunting season is filed.
[05:14] <LaserJock_> ScottK: yeah?
[05:14] <imbrandon> yea, i love the old NES and SNES, its funny i have at one point in time put a mini-itx into a NES case and had it boot right to a NES emu with nes controllers hooked up via the normal ports but the ports were wired to the parallel port ( supports upto 5 nes controllers )
[05:14] <pwnguin> imbrandon: the downside to the wiimote thing is that it uses uinput and thus isnt very secure. i seem to be good at finding things that use uinput
[05:14] <ScottK> Yeah.
[05:15] <ScottK> secvpn is a very evil package.  It has to be killed.
[05:15] <imbrandon> ScottK: lol
[05:15] <persia> nenolod: makebuilddir/$binary-package-name, so probably makebuilddir/pidgin-mpris or makebuilddir/pidgin-mpris-0.2.3, depending on your contol file.
[05:15] <pwnguin> are the hardy repos open?
[05:15] <nenolod> pidgin-mpris, then.
[05:15] <imbrandon> ScottK: thats awesom, seeing how i havent even started looking at hardy
[05:15] <ScottK> I gave up trying to rehabilitate it when I got to it adding it's user to sudoers in the postinst
[05:15] <minghua> pwnguin: I don't think so.
[05:16] <nenolod> persia, and i can just do "sh autogen.sh" ?
[05:16] <LaserJock_> ScottK: do you have a removal plan?
[05:16] <pwnguin> 1. blacklist 2. unpublish. 3. drink yourself silly
[05:16] <ScottK> File bugs on whatever annoys me that I think I can sell to pitti.
[05:16] <persia> nenolod: You can probably just do ./autogen.sh
[05:17] <ScottK> Actually I need to think about that and write something to ubuntu-devel.
[05:17] <nenolod> persia, thanks
[05:17]  * minghua hopes he doesn't annoy ScottK...
[05:17] <ScottK> I don't think pitti's package removal powers extend that far.
[05:17] <LaserJock_> ScottK: it'd be nice to do something systematic
[05:17] <ScottK> Agreed.
[05:18] <LaserJock_> I think we should be pretty ruthless for Hardy :-)
[05:18] <ScottK> I need to think it over and then bounce some ideas off StevenK.
[05:18] <ScottK> LaserJock_: Were you at the MOTU meeting today?
[05:18] <LaserJock_> no :(
[05:18]  * ScottK doesn't recall.
[05:18] <ScottK> Ah.
[05:18]  * imbrandon wasent either :(
[05:18] <LaserJock_> I haven't made a MOTU Meeting in forever
[05:18] <ScottK> Yeah I volunteered to come up with a plan.
[05:18] <ScottK> for removal.s
[05:18] <LaserJock_> I"m not even supposed to be on IRC
[05:18] <imbrandon> nenolod: btw key sync done
[05:18] <LaserJock_> ScottK: ah, great
[05:19] <ScottK> Kind of by accident I got gpgme and openssl097 during Gutsy.  I'm sure there's a lot more cruft to kill.
[05:19] <LaserJock_> it'd be kinda cool if we could do like Debian and not allow packages with RC bugs in
[05:20] <imbrandon> could i mark gnome* RC then ? heh
[05:20] <nenolod> imbrandon, thanks
[05:20]  * imbrandon ducks
[05:20]  * LaserJock_ kicks imbrandon in the butt
[05:20] <ScottK> openssl097 didn't die until Monday before release.
[05:20] <imbrandon> LaserJock_: btw hows kubuntu , still chuggin ?
[05:20] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: no, back to the dark side
[05:20] <imbrandon> doh
[05:21] <LaserJock_> KDE is great though
[05:21] <LaserJock_> just looks goofy ;-)
[05:21] <imbrandon> lol, mine always looks like XP :)
[05:21] <imbrandon> i even THOUGHT about skinning flux to XP for something to goof with
[05:21] <LaserJock_> why oh why for the love of all that is good in this world!!
[05:22] <imbrandon> :)
[05:22] <minghua> imbrandon: You don't label a package RC, you just label bugs RC
[05:22] <minghua> imbrandon: So please go ahead and read through GNOME bugs. :-)
[05:22] <imbrandon> minghua: i know, i wasy unsuccessfully trying to be funny
[05:22] <imbrandon> :)
[05:23] <minghua> It was funny, just not accurate. ;-)
[05:23] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: if I didn't work on an upstream GTK project I might stick with KDE
[05:23]  * nenolod tests to make sure the final version with all of the crappy workarounds still works
[05:24]  * imbrandon plans on testing the new c# qt bindings as soon as i get a real computer
[05:24] <LaserJock_> imbrandon: yeah, I saw about that
[05:24] <imbrandon> man i probably have written more c# code then i have looked at c++ code, and i forgot about it all when i came to linux because it was all gtk
[05:25] <minghua> Huh?  But GTK is in C.
[05:25] <nenolod> persia, thanks for the tip
[05:25] <nenolod> minghua, there is GTK C++ bindings
[05:25] <imbrandon> all the gui c# bindings untill reciently were gtk
[05:25] <nenolod> minghua, and GTK C# bindings
[05:25] <imbrandon> or windows.system.forms
[05:25] <minghua> nenolod: Right, I know that, but I don't see imbrandon's logic.
[05:26] <LaserJock_> minghua: there weren't qt bindings
[05:26] <imbrandon> minghua: in other words if i wanted to write a GUI c# app i had to use gtk as the took kit , not qt
[05:26] <minghua> Now I see.  So "it" refers to c#, not linux...
[05:26] <imbrandon> untill reciently
[05:26] <TheMuso> Thats a good thing. :p
[05:26] <nenolod> qt is evil </troll>
[05:26] <imbrandon> lol
[05:26] <TheMuso> qt  is currently inaccessible. </fact>
[05:27] <nenolod> using qt is communism </fact> </troll>
[05:27] <minghua> qt lacks CJK input support. </hearsay>
[05:27]  * minghua doesn't mind communism at all. :-)
[05:27] <imbrandon> minghua: nah it does, freeflying uses it all the time
[05:27] <nenolod> s/is/is not/
[05:27] <nenolod> :D
[05:28] <nenolod> ew.
[05:28] <minghua> imbrandon: I probably know both Qt's CJK support and freeflying a little better than you do...
[05:28] <nenolod> makebuilddir/pidgin-mpris:: causes a second build
[05:28] <nenolod> oh. just a rerun.
[05:28] <nenolod> of configure.
[05:28] <minghua> imbrandon: The Qt 3's support is a non-upstream patch.
[05:28] <imbrandon> minghua: true, but i do know it has it ;)
[05:29] <minghua> imbrandon: but full of bugs.
[05:29] <nenolod> hmm.
[05:29] <pwnguin> which is likely why its not upstream :_
[05:29] <imbrandon> hey i dident say it was great, just it was there ;)
[05:29] <nenolod> i could use a debian/autogen-stamp
[05:29] <minghua> imbrandon: Okay.  s/lacks/sucks at/, if you prefer.
[05:30] <imbrandon> btw has anyone talked to freeflying lately? i havent seen him active for weeks
[05:30] <nenolod> perfection.
[05:30]  * nenolod checks with pbuilder just to be sure
[05:31] <TheMuso> imbrandon: I've only ever seen him come on and off IRC>
[05:32] <nenolod> brb. need moar hacker fuel.
[05:36] <freeflying> imbrandon: hi
[05:36] <imbrandon> heya bro, long time no see
[05:36] <imbrandon> :)
[05:36] <freeflying> heh
[05:37] <freeflying> :)
[05:38] <freeflying> imbrandon: what's up with Qt's CJK support?
[05:38] <imbrandon> freeflying: nothing we were just mentioning it
[05:38] <imbrandon> i rember you had lots of trubbly with kopete's CJK support in dapper right ?
[05:40] <freeflying> dapper? so long ago :), actually, qt just lacks of the CJK font supports, besides this, I'm ok with it
[05:40] <freeflying> and kopete can work fine under CJK locales
[05:40] <imbrandon> ahh ok
[05:41] <imbrandon> yea dapper does seem like a while ago, heh we on another LTS now
[05:41] <freeflying> kopete in dapper can work fine too
[05:42] <imbrandon> maybe it was just the fonts then, it has been a while
[05:42] <minghua> imbrandon: No, it has nothing to do with fonts, from what I see.
[05:43] <imbrandon> minghua: no idea personaly, i only go by what freeflying said :)
[05:43] <freeflying> yes, Qt will not add any extra support for CJK font in 3.x
[05:44] <minghua> imbrandon: bug #88179, for example, is obviously Qt related, but nobody seems to care.
[05:44] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 88179 in scim "[apport] scim-launcher crashed with SIGSEGV in QTextCodec::fromUnicode()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/88179
[05:44] <minghua> (or know what is really going on)
[05:45] <imbrandon> :)
[05:47] <freeflying> minghua: I think its mostly a issue of scim, but not qt, you know skim has its own module manager, but now, scim's will run its owns under kubuntu
[05:47] <minghua> imbrandon: There is also bug #37711 which doesn't seem to generate much interests.
[05:47] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 37711 in scim-qtimm "Qt/SCIM broken (Cannot enter numbers in to spinbox widget)" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/37711
[05:48] <minghua> freeflying: Either scim's problem or Qt's problem, it still counts as "Qt's CJK input", IMHO.
[05:49] <imbrandon> time for a reboot, brb
[05:49] <minghua> freeflying: I know your opinion about CJK support in Ubuntu/Kubuntu.  And I have mine.  I think we can agree to disagree.
[05:51] <StevenK> ScottK: Bounce what off me? :-)
[05:51] <freeflying> minghua: actually, I have not good idea of the input method support in Ubuntu/Kubuntu now, due to what scim/skim is now
[05:52] <freeflying> minghua: as to the #37711, its a upstream issue of scibus, but not relate to scim/qt
[05:55] <minghua> freeflying: From what I read in #37711, scribus developers think it's a qt or scim issue.  If you know what the problem is about scribus, please point out in the bug report.
[05:56] <freeflying> minghua: this issue seems has been discussed on the mailing list of scibus already, I don't know why haven't been fixed
[05:58] <minghua> freeflying: I don't know either.  And it also seems no one replied to the bug report does.  That's why I suggest you pointing out the fix in the bug report.
[05:59] <freeflying> minghua: AFAIK, someone has pointed out on the ML of scibus
[06:00] <minghua> freeflying: But not the patch.
[06:00] <minghua> And last time I read that bug, I remember the upstream mailing list thread concludes it's Qt or scim's problem.
[06:01] <minghua> There are just many such bugs, I don't follow every links in them.
[06:01] <freeflying> minghua: will check it later
[06:03] <RAOF> StevenK: Could you please sponsor a Debian specto upload at your leisure? (http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/main/s/specto/specto_0.2.2-2.dsc )
[06:05] <StevenK> RAOF: Can you bug me in about, oh 20 minutes?
[06:05] <RAOF> StevenK: Certainly.
[06:15]  * nenolod uploads pidgin-mpris to REVU.
[06:15] <daric> afternoon evry one
[06:18] <ScottK> StevenK: Ideas for some kind of plan to be systematic about cruft removal in Hardy.  I need to think about it first though.
[06:20] <|_> hello
[06:22] <StevenK> ScottK: Sure.
[06:28] <ubu_1337_LNX> *cricket*
[06:30] <bddebian> Gnight folks
[06:31] <ubu_1337_LNX> hello
[06:32] <LNX_opensrc8> hello
[06:32] <nenolod> hm.
[06:33] <RAOF> StevenK: That's about 20 min, right?  Colour yourself bugged.
[06:33] <nenolod> anyone know why dput did not upload the .orig.tar.gz?
[06:33] <nenolod> (to revu)
[06:33] <minghua> nenolod: You need "dpkg-buildpackage -sa".
[06:33] <RAOF> nenolod: Because your .changes file doesn't include it, because you didn't pass "-sa" to debuild/dpkg-buildpackade?
[06:34] <nenolod> i used debuild -S to build the package. :x
[06:34] <nenolod> oh.
[06:34] <nenolod> i know.
[06:34] <nenolod> upload the one in the chroot.
[06:34] <nenolod> :P
[06:35] <RAOF> Yup.  That builds a source package, but it won't include the .orig.tar.gz unless it thinks that the package is the first debian revision for that upstream version.
[06:35] <minghua> Someone should write a patch to make dpkg-buildpackage to use "-sa" as default for "-0ubuntu1" version.
[06:35] <persia> RAOF: It's not always that smart.  Safer to always use -sa when one wants a new upstream.
[06:36] <minghua> persia: It's smart enough for Debian. ;-)
[06:36] <persia> minghua: Or just do a comparison against the last version, to see if the upstream version or revision changed.
[06:36] <RAOF> persia: Oh, absolutely.  I can't remember an example when it *did* work for me.
[06:36] <persia> minghua: Only when people do -1.  It doesn't work for -0.1 either.
[06:36] <minghua> Maybe -0 too, but that's what I mean by "smart enough".
[06:37] <minghua> It's fair to require new-upstream NMUers know what they are doing.
[06:37] <minghua> persia: I don't think parsing changelog is a good idea, though.
[06:38] <persia> minghua: Why not?
[06:39] <minghua> I can't exactly pin down my feeling.  But one reason is people may prefer using -0ubuntu1, -0ubuntu2, ... in REVU.
[06:39] <nenolod> there. now it's uploaded.
[06:39] <minghua> No, that doesn't make sense.
[06:39] <persia> minghua: That's a violation of recommendations
[06:39] <minghua> persia: Oh really?  I didn't know.
[06:40] <minghua> It's a valid scheme for Debian mentors.
[06:40] <persia> minghua: More generally, my opinion is that if it's going to ever automatically add -sa, it should do it based on the information it has regarding the upstream version, rather than the revision number.  Otherwise, it should just play dumb.
[06:40] <minghua> persia: I'll think about it.
[06:40] <persia> minghua: It also breaks for people who extensively use Experimental (unless that got fixed: I haven't been paying as much attention to Debian for the past bit)
[06:41] <nenolod>   pidgin-mpris_0.2.3-0ubuntu2.dsc: done.
[06:41] <nenolod>   pidgin-mpris_0.2.3.orig.tar.gz: done.
[06:41] <nenolod> that's better.
[06:41] <minghua> There is no official version naming scheme for experimental anyway...  Is there?
[06:43] <persia> minghua: Not really, but many people put -1 in experimental, and then -2 and -3 are showstopper fixes for early testers, and -4 or -5 drop into unstable, but this isn't really the right forum :)
[06:44]  * nenolod waits for revu to notice that there's a newer upload
[06:44] <StevenK> RAOF: Paste the link again?
[06:52] <StevenK> Muahahaha
[06:52] <StevenK> From Planet Ubuntu:
[06:52] <StevenK> "The team were delighted to be joined by members of Greater London Linux User Group, Datahop IT and some awesome people from a little company called Canonical. Some random bloke calling himself “Mark Shuttleworth” turned up; we allowed him to join our party as he had bought a round of drinks and some nibbles."
[06:54] <minghua> Actually, I think I read a serious "Who the hell is Mark Shuttleworth?" on a Chinese forum a few days ago.
[06:56] <StevenK> Hah
[06:58] <white> i hope that there was no melbourne release party, cos i did not get an invite :/
[06:58] <nenolod> minghua, :D :D :D
[06:58]  * white is always up for a beer, even if the enemy releases :)
[06:59] <minghua> white: Oh, I was not aware that Windows has release parties as well. ;-)
[07:00] <white> minghua: i somehow doubt that they let me in with a debian shirt, but when i ever happen to be in redmond, I will go into their hq with that shirt and a smile :)
[07:00] <tonyyarusso> white: check https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseParties
[07:01] <nenolod> geeze
[07:02] <nenolod> i keep forgetting to use -sa
[07:02] <nenolod> i need to get more stoned clearly
[07:02] <nenolod> ;p
[07:06] <nenolod> http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=387
[07:06] <nenolod> tada
[07:06] <nenolod> :P
[07:13] <StevenK> RAOF: Successfully uploaded packages. ; $beers_owed[StevenK]++
[07:24] <jdong> IntegerOverflowError: Unable to increment value
[07:25] <StevenK> jdong: :-P
[07:28] <nenolod> well anyway, pidgin-mpris is ready for review ;p
[07:29] <ScottK> jdong's the local pidgin expert anyway.
[07:29] <jdong> ROFL
[07:30] <jdong> nice one
[07:30] <ScottK> You get sharkattack fixed?
[07:30]  * ScottK is to lazy to actually look.
[07:30] <ScottK> jdong: ^^^
[07:31] <nenolod> jdong, hi. sign off on that package mister pidgin expert
[07:31] <nenolod> :(
[07:32] <ScottK> jdong did some work the the pidgin package trying to backport it (so he may actually know something about it), but is not a MOTU.
[07:32] <jdong> ScottK: not yet... will try to find some time tomorrow to walk over and turn it on
[07:33] <ScottK> jdong: OK.  I think there's more discussion about backports testing recently and it'd be nice if the tools were working ...
[07:33] <ScottK> Good night.
[07:33]  * ScottK heads to bed.
[07:33] <jdong> I've only trivially messed with pidgin for the sake of backporting; apart from that I'm pretty useless with pidgin
[07:33] <jdong> ScottK: night
[07:34] <ScottK> That's probably more than anyone else here.  You're still stuck with the expert lable.
[07:34] <jdong> aww
[07:44] <nenolod> imbrandon, thanks for your help earlier ;)
[07:46] <imbrandon> nenolod: np
[07:50] <nenolod> now hopefully someone will sign off on my packages
[07:50] <nenolod> as gutsy has 1 mpris capable player
[07:50] <nenolod> :P
[07:51] <minghua> nenolod: Come here often and nudge people in the following months. :-)
[07:53] <imbrandon> ok i'm off to sleep yall, have fun
[07:53] <nenolod> minghua, it's on my autojoin
[07:53] <nenolod> ;p
[07:56] <siretart> imbrandon: pong
[07:57] <imbrandon> siretart: i found what i needed in Hobbsee's .bashrc :) thanks
[07:57] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: \o/
[07:57] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: good thing tehre's no p/w's in it or anything
[07:57] <ajmitch> imbrandon: sure, blame Hobbsee
[07:57] <Hobbsee> yeah, yeah, it's all my fault.
[07:57] <ajmitch> people these days
[07:58] <imbrandon> Hobbsee: hehe yea dont put passwords in a shared system :)
[07:58] <nenolod> who is this Hobbsee and why do i want to blame him?
[07:58] <ajmitch> him?
[07:58] <imbrandon> her
[07:58]  * Hobbsee is a green alien.
[07:58] <imbrandon> :)
[07:58] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: oh of course :)
[07:58]  * siretart is confused
[07:58] <nenolod> imbrandon, yeah. she seemed happier than your average male.
[07:58] <ajmitch> siretart: that's my normal state
[07:58] <imbrandon> siretart: me 3
[07:58] <siretart> might be related to my uptime today (~5mins)
[07:58] <nenolod> but... english rules say "if unknown, assume it's male"
[07:58] <nenolod> ;p
[07:58] <ajmitch>  /whois Hobbsee
[07:58] <ajmitch> :)
[07:59] <ajmitch> can't you tell from the ircname there? ;)
[07:59] <nenolod> ajmitch, yeah. i partially wrote the ircd freenode uses ;)
[07:59] <imbrandon> i think the sarah@ gives it away :)
[07:59] <nenolod> Hobbsee, you're the FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER?
[07:59] <nenolod> WOW.
[07:59] <ajmitch> imbrandon: I was looking at the Flying Spaghetti Monster part
[07:59]  * imbrandon dident actualy look
[07:59] <Hobbsee> nenolod: yup :)
[07:59] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: yeah, well.
[07:59] <nenolod> you're my hero
[07:59] <nenolod> :(
[08:00] <imbrandon> ahh its not sarah@ anyhow, heck it took 6 months to convince her to make a diffrent hostname
[08:00] <imbrandon> :)
[08:00] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: :P
[08:00] <ajmitch> launchpad tells all
[08:01] <Hobbsee> imbrandon: dapper and such wouldnt let me have a long hostname.
[08:01] <imbrandon> anyhow, i'm really off to sleep, been a long day, gnight
[08:01] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: nice photo there on LP
[08:01] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: indeed!
[08:01] <nenolod> imbrandon, you mean the whole people asking for naked pictures thing that happens on IRC didn't convince her?
[08:02] <nenolod> imbrandon, she really must be a troll
[08:02] <ajmitch> how disturbing
[08:02] <nenolod> so notable that xkcd made a joke about it: http://www.xkcd.org/322/
[08:02] <minghua> Hobbsee: How is "Hobbsee" pronounced, by the way?
[08:02] <ajmitch> xkcd, what a wonderful repository of wisdom
[08:02] <nenolod> hobb-see i assume
[08:03] <TheMuso> c
[08:03] <TheMuso> ugh
[08:03]  * TheMuso prods dreamhost. Fix your damn core router already
[08:04] <Hobbsee> minghua: "hobbs-ee"
[08:04] <TheMuso> Ok, they have.
[08:04] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: wherever did that come from?
[08:04] <minghua> Hobbsee: "ee" pronounced as in "see"?
[08:04] <Hobbsee> minghua: yes
[08:04] <TheMuso> Wow. Just got an FTBFS for lpia on hardy notice.
[08:04] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: which, where?
[08:04] <ajmitch> that nick :)
[08:04] <minghua> Hobbsee: Good, thanks.
[08:04]  * persia thinks it's a diminuative construction
[08:04] <Hobbsee> minghua: yes, hobb-see, i gues.  either way
[08:05] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: you know where i live, yet you dont know that?  :)
[08:05] <minghua> persia: But Hobbs is last name...
[08:05] <ajmitch> hehe :)
[08:06] <ajmitch> and you still don't know where I live
[08:06] <Hobbsee> true.  i did know
[08:06] <persia> minghua: You've never introduced yourself as "Hua"?
[08:07] <minghua> persia: Not really.  Chinese has a very different name using/introducing custom from westerns (or Japanese, for that matter).
[08:07]  * persia will research that later
[08:07] <minghua> persia: And I've never been introduced as "little Hua" when I was young...
[08:08] <minghua> persia: And if you want to research, it also differs in Northern China and Southern China.
[08:08] <minghua> (In other words, I suggest you to forget about this idea. :-)
[08:38] <imbrandon> err damn it , how can i find out wtf the floppy drive is if its not /dev/fd0 or /dev/floppy but its listed in lsdev ?
[08:44]  * siretart installs hardy in a virtualbox on gutsy. lets see how this works out
[08:47] <StevenK> Heh, and what's the point, it has a new toolchain only
[08:49] <siretart> StevenK: there is not really a point. I experiment if developing hardy in a vm fits my workflow better, since I'm using this laptop for daily work
[08:49] <StevenK> Ah
[08:49] <Hobbsee> siretart: wont it just break X majorly, and possibly be harder to debug in a VM?
[08:51] <siretart> Hobbsee: this is a good question. there are guest additions, which provide xv and stuff
[08:51] <siretart> however how good they work out in practice, we'll see
[08:51] <Hobbsee> siretart: true.  except not in the gutsy package, iirc
[08:51] <siretart> Hobbsee: no, you need to download them from the website
[08:52] <siretart> fortunately, the virtualbox-ose package has integrated this in its UI
[08:52] <Hobbsee> siretart: indeed.
[08:52] <Hobbsee> ahh, nice!
[08:58] <siretart> yay virtualbox_1.5.2-25433_Ubuntu_gutsy_amd64.deb <- great example for well formed binary package filename :/
[08:59] <Hobbsee> heh
[08:59] <minghua> Would dpkg accept that?
[08:59] <siretart> sure
[08:59] <persia> minghua: The words are just extra revision info
[08:59] <minghua> Oh, but what's it's Version: in DEBIAN/control?
[09:00] <minghua> Surely you can't have 1.5.2-25433_Ubuntu_gutsy there?
[09:00] <siretart>  Package: virtualbox
[09:00] <siretart>  Version: 1.5.2-25433_Ubuntu_gutsy
[09:00] <ajmitch> that's interesting
[09:01]  * minghua accepts defeat.
[09:03]  * TheMuso should give virtualbox a whilr at some point.
[09:03] <TheMuso> whirl
[09:08] <siretart> hm. the rdp server seems to work just fine
[09:25] <dary1> anyone know how to get suspend/resume working for wireless networks?
[09:25] <TheMuso> Hey norsetto.
[09:26] <norsetto> Hey TheMuso
[09:26] <TheMuso> dary1: #ubuntu for support.
[09:26] <norsetto> hiya all
[09:26] <dary1> ok - sorry
[11:07] <proppy> hi
[11:25] <norsetto> hi proppy, how is it?
[11:29] <proppy> norsetto: nice, just received 2x10kg packages from japan :)
[13:39] <Hobbsee> wow, it's quiet....
[13:42] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: Theres nothing to do.
[13:42] <TheMuso> I'd do the minutes from last night's meeting, but I'm a little tired.
[13:43] <coNP[uni]> Hey Hobbsee, TheMuso
[13:43] <StevenK> TheMuso: Play in the traffic.
[13:43] <Hobbsee> The
[13:43] <Hobbsee> ahhh.
[13:43] <Hobbsee> hehe
[13:43] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: gah.
[13:43] <TheMuso> StevenK: um.... right
[13:43] <Hobbsee> playing in the traffic is bad, mmmkay?
[13:44] <TheMuso> That I am well aware of.
[13:44]  * Hobbsee is going thru and unsubscribing from a whole bunch of bugmail
[13:44] <Hobbsee> no, that was to StevenK
[13:44]  * Hobbsee now has a hardy tarball.  yay!
[13:46] <tiagoboldt> I've already read and learned how to package into .debs applications. I've tried it out for a while but, what now? Where can I start being helpful?
[13:47] <sladen> tiagoboldt: #ubuntu-motu
[13:47] <sladen> D'oh.
[13:47] <Fujitsu> sladen: This is #ubuntu-motu, isn't it?
[13:47] <sladen> D'oh.
[13:47] <sladen> D'oh.
[13:47] <sladen> D'oh.
[13:47] <tiagoboldt> :x
[13:47] <tiagoboldt> missed the point..
[13:48] <norsetto> tiagobold: what about some packaging bugs?
[13:48] <sladen> tiagoboldt: it's an automatic reaction when people ask on other channels.  I was being particularly thick in this case.
[13:48]  * TheMuso wishes we didn't have dinner so late... Suerly got to do with my tirdness now. :p
[13:49] <norsetto> tiagoboldt: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=packaging
[13:49] <tiagoboldt> nice:)
[13:49] <norsetto> tiagoboldt: come back here and ask for help if it is needed; for sponsoring subscribe u-u-s
[13:50] <tiagoboldt> after have it packaged, where shhould I submit it?
[13:50] <norsetto> tiagoboldt: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Sponsorship/SponsorsQueue
[13:50] <tiagoboldt> what's uus?
[13:50] <Hobbsee> ubuntu universe sponsors
[13:50] <norsetto> tiagoboldt: give me the time to fetch the link :-)
[13:50]  * Hobbsee ponders forwarning tiagoboldt
[13:50] <tiagoboldt> norsetto, bookmarking it all, thanks :D
[13:51] <norsetto> Hobbsee: I need to talk to you (no, I don't need money ....)
[13:51] <Hobbsee> norsetto: go for it
[13:51] <Hobbsee> heh :)
[13:51] <norsetto> Hobbsee: you remember that person we talked about yesterday, the one that applied to about 9720323 launchpad groups?
[13:51] <Hobbsee> norsetto: yeah, but not the name
[13:52] <norsetto> Hobbsee: well, today I only received two emails
[13:52] <Hobbsee> norsetto: feel free to /query
[13:52] <norsetto> Hobbsee: I was wondering if, being a she, is there not an ubuntu women group?
[13:53] <Hobbsee> norsetto: there is a ubuntu-women group.
[13:53] <norsetto> Hobbsee: becuase I think all she need is somebody to talk to: https://launchpad.net/~1024kb
[13:53] <Hobbsee> but it's not necessary to be a part of it, being a woman and oding ubuntu stuff, of course
[13:54] <TheMuso> Ok, I'm off.
[13:55] <norsetto> themuso: what? and the package you promised me to review in revu?
[13:55] <TheMuso> norsetto: What package?
[13:55] <Hobbsee> norsetto: actually, looking at that page, that's not a bad idea.
[13:56] <norsetto> TheMuso: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=378
[13:56] <norsetto> Hobbsee: yeah, I thought you could be the right person I could talk to about it
[13:56] <TheMuso> I didn't promise anything.
[13:56] <norsetto> TheMuso: you didn't?
[13:56] <TheMuso> norsetto: Not that I know of.
[13:57] <norsetto> TheMuso: ah! You just didn't know
[13:57] <TheMuso> no
[13:57] <TheMuso> I'll have a look tomorrow however.
[13:57] <norsetto> TheMuso: jokes aside, if you really have nothing else you do, and if you feel like doing it, please give it a look, I will appreciate
[13:58] <TheMuso> norsetto: Will do so tomorrow.
[13:58]  * TheMuso is too tired to concentrate at this point.
[13:58] <norsetto> TheMuso: take it easy, sleep tight!
[13:58] <TheMuso> Thanks, will do.
[14:00] <norsetto> Hobbsee: ops, that must have been my query .....
[14:01] <Hobbsee> (sorry)
[14:01] <Hobbsee> nah, power ran out, so i tried to suspend - and that fell over.
[14:01] <Hobbsee> norsetto: please re-/query
[14:17] <hellboy195> hoi :)
[14:17] <papo> hi hellboy195
[15:11] <bddebian> Heya gang
[15:12] <geser> Hi bddebian
[15:15] <bddebian> Heya geser
[15:18] <sebastian^> hi bddebian
[15:19] <hellboy195> hoi bddebian
[15:21] <bddebian> Hello sebastian^, hellboy195
[15:21] <norsetto> bbdebian: salutations
[15:21] <bddebian> Heya norsetto
[15:22] <sebastian^> hmm interesting conversation :)
[15:28] <norsetto> is anyone around here using xulrunner?
[15:30] <hellboy195> cya guys
[16:09] <bsund> i'm thinking of starting to contribute to universe.. but it takes some learning about how to make them.. i don't care about it.. i just wanna make sure it's worth it.. the thing that got me started was that azureus and xmoto has'nt  changed since feisty.. and they are kinda old.. so should i start or start making requests? i don't wanna make like 3 packages and see that everything else is good
[16:10] <CyberMatt> hello i uploaded a package to REVU about a week ago and no one has  commented on it yet did i do somthing wrong
[16:12] <bddebian> CyberMatt: No, since we are in between releases people tend to take some time and decompress
[16:13] <bddebian> I'll try to take a look early next week at REVU if I can, though I have a management meeting most of the week :-(
[16:14] <CyberMatt> lag
[16:14] <bsund> bddebian, do you need contributers or are you fine with requests.. i thought at first that there was a reason why stuff was outdated.. that no changes unless crucial... but after gutsy.. same old stuff
[16:16] <bddebian> bsund: Sorry, I don't quite get your question?
[16:17] <CyberMatt> has anyone ever considered apt via bit torrent
[16:17] <bsund> bddebian, if you want a package you need, you have two choices? contribute or request? and i was asking if you had so much people contributing that a request would be done fast?
[16:17] <hellboy195> hi :)
[16:18] <CyberMatt> upgrading to gutsy is killing my tubes
[16:18] <bddebian> bsund: Unfortunately no, we need lots more contributors :-)
[16:19] <CyberMatt> as in download speed
[16:20] <bsund> oki, i'll try to learn more about it :) and try to chat some more to get my english straight ;)
[16:22] <bsund> i didn't want to learn all the deb stuff just to make a few debs, but if it's needed i might be able to to do some worthwhile stuff with it
[16:25] <jamesfoster> I'm not a packaging expert, but it seems to me that making Debian/Ubuntu packages is a lot more difficult than it should be.
[16:26] <bsund> i thinks there's a reason why people loathe yum and praise apt :)
[16:26] <jamesfoster> I don't mind this, but I suspect that developers coming from a Windows background may find it pretty unappealing.
[16:28] <bsund> i agree it's alot to deal with, thats why i asked in here :) but sort it out get it straight and it will (hopefully) work! ;)
[16:29] <jamesfoster> I don't mind putting the work in, but I'm just curious about why there hasn't been any sort of initiative to make it easier.
[16:30] <bsund> if anyone could makedeb woot-src.tar.gz all systems would brake at the end.. i think and hope there's a reason why there's a bit of tinkering
[16:30] <luk_> hmm, there are lots of initiatives to make it easier
[16:30] <luk_> it's also already a lot easier than it used to be...
[16:34] <bsund> one thing i've always thought about.. people say linux is secure, how hard is it to get a backdoor into any package? is there any security there?
[16:35] <bsund> so it have to be some walls between which make it hard to get a package through i think
[16:37] <jamesfoster> luk_: I guess what I have in mind is a GUI that performs some validation on fields, as well as showing novice packagers what fields they need to have so that they don't miss anything important. A missing value is more glaringly obvious in a GUI than it is in a text file.
[16:39] <luk_> noone is stopping people from writing GUIs to do packaging, though I guess there are not many people who are bothered enough to help you...
[16:39] <bsund> jamesfoster, that's what i got turned off of.. i did the dh_make and it says "license: blank" but if you look at COPYING it is GPL all over.. so i was like how will it look at the depend stuff?
[16:40] <slangasek> license auditing is not something that software does well.
[16:41] <bsund> but i have no problem with it.. i think it's fine.. i think it _should_ be some trenches to cross over to make sure the one who did it isn't a blank idiot and that the package wouldnt brake the system
[16:41] <jamesfoster> luk_: I realise that. I'm just wondering whether there's any major problems you know of that I'm not considering?
[16:42] <bsund> but it's just the reason why i'm here to ask if there's need for contributers or there is to much contributers and no requests
[16:43] <luk_> if you're thinking about syntax validation, then that would be a big improvement, though other validation is more difficult...
[16:43] <luk_> though I guess much is already done in lintian/linda for validation...
[16:44] <luk_> so no need to start from scratch if you really are serious about a GUI for packaging
[16:44] <bsund> slangasek, sry i'm not into this stuff but i sure wanna get into it, in what way is it well if it does'nt look into COPYING when it does pretty much the same stuff elsewhere
[16:45] <bsund> <- need to improve typing
[16:52] <bsund> this chan is kinda dead :) i don't get it, such a huge distribution when it comes to users.. but kinda dead when it comes to development..
[16:53] <bsund> i want to see like ppl racing.. like.. -> dumbass your package came 0.001ms after mine retard ;)
[16:57] <bsund> the philosophy has always been, if you don't like it, make it better.. if this turns out like.. luser has no place all hail canonicial.. ubuntu wont turn out better then microsoft
[16:59] <bsund> canonicial/canonical
[17:01] <Amaranth> bsund: we just had a release
[17:01] <Amaranth> and it's a weekend
[17:02] <bsund> it sounds like you're >10ppl ;)
[17:04] <bsund> but i don't get it tbh.. it's universe, it should be on bleeding age
[17:04] <bsund> s/age/edge
[17:05] <superm1> ScottK, you here by chance?
[17:05] <superm1> or another member of motu-uvf?
[17:06] <ScottK> Yes
[17:08] <geser> ScottK: when you are here, can you check if the debdiff in bug #154136 qualifies for -proposed as we can't get the new version into gutsy
[17:08] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 154136 in gnumed-client "gnumed - "new upstream available" - 0.2.7.1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/154136
[17:08] <ScottK> geser: Looking.
[17:09] <superm1> ScottK, i haven't filed a bug yet (i will in a moment), but i have a very small diff that i wanted to make sure was fine by motu-uvf for mythbuntu-control-centre in principle to go for gutsy-updates.  mythbuntu-control-centre fails on amd64 if you haven't ever used medibuntu without it.http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1094/
[17:09] <ScottK> geser: Go for it.
[17:10] <geser> ScottK: thanks
[17:10] <ScottK> geser: Make sure you use a bug number than can't conflict with what's in Hardy.
[17:10] <geser> sure, as usual
[17:12] <ScottK> geser: I remind people because not everyone remembers to leave space for the hardy upload in their numbering.
[17:14] <bsund> bah i love ubuntu so you might see me more here.. had a few beers and a scotch.. although i'll be bashing more around in future i'll hope ^^
[17:21] <ScottK> superm1: Define "fails" more completely.  I guess I'd like to read the bug.
[17:21] <superm1> ScottK, sorry, yeah i probably should have made it before i pinged.  i wasn't expecting a quick response.  give me a few moments :)
[17:22] <superm1> bug 154985
[17:22] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 154985 in mythbuntu-control-centre "MCC fails on amd64 if medibuntu hasn't been used in the past" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/154985
[17:24] <ScottK> superm1: ACK, so this will be 0.10-0ubuntu1.1, right?
[17:25] <superm1> ScottK, yeah.
[18:20] <bluefoxicy> VMware Player cannot be installed on your computer type (i386).
[18:20] <bluefoxicy> o_o
[18:22] <brandon_> i've been experiencing a bug, like a lot ofpeople. Logging into gnome or kde takes 30-40 seconds in gutsy. There is alrady a bug report, but nothing is being done because apparently none of us who has the bug is doing anything to help fix it. so i'm willing, and able, but what do i do?
[18:25] <geser> please try it again during the week, most developers are now enjoying the weekend
[18:25] <brandon_> very well
[18:57] <ScottK> bluefoxicy: Gutsy doesn't have a package for that.
[18:58] <bluefoxicy> ScottK:  seems vmware was removed in favor of virtualbox
[19:23] <ScottK> vmware-player was removed because the package we had was ancient, broken, and had no hope of working.
[19:23] <ScottK> It wasn't in favor of anything.
[19:58] <proppy> oy
[21:11] <pwnguin> ok, what the heck does scrollkeeper DO?
[21:11] <jdong> pwnguin: use 100% CPU for a few minutes? :D
[21:36] <slangasek> pwnguin: provides an index/catalog for installed documentation (GNOME documentation, anyway)
[21:55] <norsetto> always look on the bright side of life
[21:55] <somerville32> I try to
[21:59] <bddebian> Heya gang
[22:00] <norsetto> there we are, peace is over
[22:00] <norsetto> bddebian: boo :-)
[22:02] <bddebian> Heh, heya norsetto
[22:04] <hellboy195> bddebian: hoi ^^
[22:04] <bddebian> Hello hellboy195
[22:05] <norsetto> Can't believe this guys, the default paste key on my terminal is not ctrl-v, I will write to my mp
[22:10] <imbrandon> anyone seen the Netsurf ( netsurf-browser.org ) for Linux ? i am having no luck finding it for anything but RISC OS but someone left a comment that it might be good for my low end system
[22:15] <norsetto> imbrandon: isn't in debian?
[22:21] <slangasek> netsurf seems to be in Debian now, yes
[22:22] <norsetto> slangasek: guess that will be soon autosynced too
[22:22] <slangasek> when hardy opens, yep
[22:23] <norsetto> hardy: toc, toc
[22:28] <imbrandon> slangasek / norsetto , ahh dumb of me, i should have checked debian
[22:29] <imbrandon> slangasek: btw congrats on the release
[22:34] <slangasek> imbrandon: thanks
[22:39] <hellboy195> good night :D
[23:03] <ScottK> norsetto: shift - insert is along time Linux/Unix standard for pasting.
[23:04] <norsetto> scottK: sorry, it was a lame attempt at humour (re. people complaining about backspace in ff.....)
[23:04] <ScottK> Ah.
[23:05]  * ScottK recalls praising the day Ubuntu made backspace != back.
[23:05] <imbrandon> ScottK: cept when your using a apple keyboard ( like me ) its shift+help :)
[23:05] <imbrandon> and yes i use an apple keyboard on a x86
[23:05] <ScottK> Hmmm.  Ok.
[23:05] <norsetto> scottK: don't ask .....
[23:05]  * ScottK doesn't
[23:06] <imbrandon> err s/x86/non-apple hardware
[23:06] <imbrandon> guess they are x86's now
[23:09] <imbrandon> and numlock is apple(super)+clear
[23:09] <imbrandon> hrm anyhow . back to looking at this package
[23:14] <bddebian> Gads I hate copyright crap :-(
[23:14] <bddebian> Heya persia
[23:14] <persia> Hi bddebian.
[23:14] <persia> Should I be uploading to fix received FTBFS reports, or is it better to still wait a bit?
[23:19] <bddebian> persia: hey, I found another sound issue for ya ;-)
[23:20] <persia> bddebian: Which?
[23:21] <bddebian> Games package wok, but give me a sec to find what I did with the details :-)
[23:22] <bddebian> Ah yes, undefined reference to ov_raw_seek.  I think it's either missing a -lvorbis or it's not pulling a proper header file in somewhere
[23:23] <persia> compile-time or run-time?  Which package?
[23:23] <bddebian> wok
[23:23] <bddebian> build-time
[23:24] <persia> Ah.  Sorry.  I misparsed "wok" as a mystyping of "work".  My apologies for the lack of confidence.
[23:24] <bddebian> hehe, I can't imagine why you'd do that with me.. ;-)
[23:25] <persia> It doesn't help that I can't find a "wok" package in either Ubuntu or Debian :)
[23:26] <persia> Anyway, does -lvorbis show in the output?  Alternately, is libvorbis-dev (recursively) in build-depends?
[23:27] <persia> The other possibility is the new strict headers rule, where every header referenced in a given source file must now actually be included in that source file, as opposed to randomly included in the larger scope of things.
[23:28] <bddebian> persia: No it's in Games svn
[23:28] <pwnguin> fun
[23:28] <pwnguin> i didnt try to grab that game into my ppa
[23:29] <bddebian> And no -lvorbis doesn't seem to appear but libvorbis-dev is a b-d
[23:29] <pwnguin> i grabbed all the other ones from kenta cho though
[23:30] <persia> bddebian: Might be a ./configure issue.  Hold on why I fight with the annoyance of grabbing the tarball from there
[23:31] <pwnguin> where in gods name IS the debian Games SVN?
[23:32] <slangasek> svn://svn.debian.org/svn/pkg-games/ ?
[23:32] <ScottK> persia: Upload to gutsy-proposed is OK with an ack from motu-uvf.
[23:33] <persia> ScottK: The FTBFS is hardy/lpia.  I'm really not sure the fix belongs in gutsy-proposed :)
[23:39] <norsetto> g'night all
[23:39] <pwnguin> persia: how does one grab the tarball from there?
[23:40] <persia> pwnguin: Painfully.  The easy way is to grab it from http://pkg-games.alioth.debian.org/tarballs/
[23:40] <pwnguin> i think i'll do that then
[23:42] <persia> bddebian: If nothing else, quilt-make should be included, and the calls set as dependencies, no?
[23:43] <ScottK> persia: Ah.  No, don't upload for Hardy yet AFAIK.
[23:44] <bddebian> persia: I would think
[23:44] <persia> ScottK: That was my understanding, and I'm especially uncertain about FTBFS fix uploads, given the current focus.
[23:44] <persia> bddebian: OK.  I have a build tree.  Tracking...
[23:48] <persia> OOh.  Cool.  Upstream lives in my town.
[23:49] <imbrandon> persia: where is that ?
[23:49] <persia> imbrandon: Suginami-ku
[23:49] <imbrandon> ah
[23:51] <imbrandon> on the PPA's if i specify gutsy in the changelog will it build against gutsy or only the current development release ?
[23:51] <imbrandon> ( or is this a #launchpad question )
[23:52] <bddebian> bbl dinner time
[23:52] <persia> bddebian: It's a GCC issue.  You need to explicity #include header files now.  That's also the reason for the build warnings for wok.c
[23:52] <bddebian> Ah, OK
[23:54]  * persia goes back to "testing" teg