[00:38] <h3xor> Hello Everyone
[00:49] <sgtd> greetings, h3xor.
[01:07] <rdz11> http://www.mangolanguages.com/
[01:07] <rdz11> oopss sorry
[01:52] <nxvl> how do i work with rc bugs?
[04:38] <Fattay> Oh man do I need help...
[04:39] <Jordan_U> Fattay, :)
[04:39] <Jordan_U> Fattay, Are you at a terminal?
[04:40] <Fattay> No.
[04:40] <Fattay> Would you like me to be?
[04:40] <Jordan_U> Yes
[04:40] <Fattay> K I am now
[04:40] <Fattay> :)
[04:41] <Jordan_U> Fattay, Do you see a file named xorg.conf.failsafe in /etc/X11 ?
[04:42] <Jordan_U> Fattay, If you don't know how to check it's "ls /etc/X11"
[04:42] <Fattay> No, that file isn't in there.
[04:43] <Fattay> There is xorg.conf but no xorg.conf.failsafe
[04:43] <Jordan_U> Fattay, Ok, have you tried running "sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg -phigh" and setting the driver to "vesa"?
[04:45] <Fattay> Just did that.... "xserver-xorg postinst warning: overwriting possibly-customised configuration file; backup in /etc/X11/xorg.conf.20071022034441
[04:47] <Fattay> Jordan_U: What Now, heh?
[04:51] <Jordan_U> Fattay, Kill X again and try starting GDM again ( you can use the up arrow to go to a command you have previously run )
[04:52] <Fattay> Starting Gnome Display Manager....[OK]
[04:52] <Fattay> Still at terminal though, and its blinking....
[04:52] <Fattay> What now?
[04:52] <Fattay> Damnet!
[04:53] <Fattay> \Back to the blue screen....failed to start the x server...
[04:53] <Fattay> :(
[04:53] <Jordan_U> Fattay, What graphics card do you have?
[04:55] <Fattay> I actually have two graphics cards installed.
[04:56] <Fattay> Since I was running dual monitors when I had Windows on the machine.
[04:57] <Fattay> One is an Nvidia. Other is like an integrated one. my comp specs are 400gb hd, amd 64 dual core, 4800+ 2gb ram..
[04:58] <Jordan_U> Fattay, Try disabling one of them in the BIOS
[04:58] <Fattay> One moment, lets see...
[05:01] <Fattay> Hmm....Not seeing where to disable one.
[05:06] <Fattay> Would it make a difference that I currently have CentOS installed?
[05:08] <Fattay> Because I had no problems installing CentOS earlier today.
[05:13] <Fattay> Jordan_U: ?
[05:17] <nxvl> how do i work with rcbugs?
[05:17] <Jordan_U> Fattay, No, that wouldn't make a difference
[05:18] <Fattay> Gah.
[05:18] <Fattay> I want Ubuntu to workkkkkkkkkkkkkkk....why does this always have to happen to me *hits head*
[05:18] <Jordan_U> Fattay, You can try the xorg.conf from CentOS though
[05:22] <Fattay> How would I do that?
[07:41] <nanbudh> what are keyrings exactly and how do i use them?
[07:42] <MarkC> nanbudh: uh... maybe you want to try asking on #ubuntu or #kubuntu...
[07:45] <mickgardner> when does the ubuntu classroom stuff start, i must be half a day early..?
[07:46] <nanbudh> could u please tell me what is scheduled over here?
[07:47] <awkorama> nanbudh: topic
[07:49] <MarkC> 15:00 utc
[07:49] <MarkC> @time utc
[07:49] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 22 2007, 06:49:55 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 day
[07:50] <MarkC> :P
[08:51] <tomak> hi guyz
[09:00] <ozmickg> hi tomak
[11:01] <gaurav_> how do i find out what wireless access point i am connected to? ie, the mac address?
[11:19] <vistakiller> what time is the utc?
[11:19] <chettagadeng>      /msg nickserv set hide email on
[11:21] <jamesfoster> @time utc
[11:21] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 22 2007, 10:21:39 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 day
[11:22] <nanbudh> is there going to be any class? and when?
[11:22] <jamesfoster> In slightly under 5 hours it all starts.
[11:22] <nanbudh> hi ubotu! i have seen u
[11:23] <nanbudh> i am new at this.how does this work?ppl discuss a topic ?
[11:26] <jamesfoster> nanbudh, My understanding is that there will be various sessions that are essentially monologues. You can ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat though.
[11:27] <nanbudh> jamesfoster:ok so a lecture in which we can ask wuestions. its simple yet best idea
[11:55] <JordiR> q
[12:48] <jamesfoster> @time utc
[12:48] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 22 2007, 11:48:06 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 day
[13:46] <willwill> @now
[13:46] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 22 2007, 12:46:33 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 day
[13:58] <fernando> moin all
[14:03]  * willwill is away: Busy...
[14:03] <willwill> sorry
[14:03] <willwill> i forgot to turn off away message
[14:16] <unnamedXD> hello
[14:43] <willwill> @now
[14:43] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 22 2007, 13:43:17 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 day
[14:43] <willwill> few mins left
[14:47] <sgtd> hmm... i show 1 hour 13 minutes left
[14:48] <sgtd> maybe daylight savings though
[14:49] <keithcleaveruk> it did say utc on the pages though... maybe we're all early!
[14:50] <michaelramm> i think that it is starting at 10am Central US time which is 1 hr 10 mins away (at least that is what I figured)
[14:50] <willwill> now i'm 8:50 pm @ asia/bangkok (time synchoronized) about ten mins left?
[14:51] <keithcleaveruk> @now
[14:51] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 22 2007, 13:51:35 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 day
[14:52] <michaelramm> October 22 2007, 13:51:35...starts at 15:00...so there is an hour+ left
[14:53] <michaelramm> Bangkok   Mon 10:00 PM (from TimeandDate.com)
[14:54] <michaelramm> See Here for starting time of 15:00 UTC http://urltea.com/1uev
[14:57] <willwill> @now Asia/Bangkok
[14:57] <ubotu> Current time in Asia/Bangkok: October 22 2007, 20:57:24 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 day
[14:57] <willwill> hmm, ubotu is few seconds faster than mine
[15:00] <willwill> @now
[15:00] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 22 2007, 14:00:56 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 day
[15:01] <willwill> 14 pm now
[15:01] <michaelramm> 1 hours to go
[15:02]  * willwill think uow is 14pm
[15:21]  * LongPointyStick waves
[15:21] <effie_jayx> LongPointyStick, ;)
[15:25] <amgad-laptop> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[15:37] <keithcleaveruk> @now
[15:37] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 22 2007, 14:37:35 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 day
[15:39] <jim> time
[15:39] <popey> "The time sponsored by Canonical is..."
[15:39] <popey> "..twenty to jono"
[15:40] <popey> BEEEEP
[15:40] <willwill> ha ha ha
[15:40] <Hobbsee> @now
[15:41] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 22 2007, 14:41:03 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 day
[15:41] <SvZ> Hi all
[15:42] <SvZ> @now
[15:42] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 22 2007, 14:42:34 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 day
[15:42] <willwill> SvZ$ all is not here at the moment
[15:43] <SvZ> willwill, ahh
[15:49] <Spidernet> WoW ubuntu users!!! 190 in a classroom good evening to all.
[15:51] <nxvl_> good morning
[15:51] <SvZ> Spidernet, Oh! at night now. (Thailand)
[15:51] <isagani> here too (philippines)
[15:51] <mybunche> 11pm in here
[15:51] <public_void> Good afternoon (UK)
[15:52] <Spidernet> in Greece its evening :)
[15:52] <eXodi4> good morning in Venezuela :P
[15:52] <rff> Good afternoon (PT)
[15:52] <SvZ> hi all!
[15:52] <effie_jayx> eXodi4, me too :D
[15:52] <warp10> Hi all
[15:52] <begert_> hey all
[15:52] <willwill> @now
[15:52] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 22 2007, 14:52:59 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 day
[15:53] <willwill> good evening from Asia/Bangkok!
[15:53] <ubunturos> good evening from Asia/India/Mumbai
[15:53] <keithcleaveruk> @now Europe/Cardiff
[15:53] <SvZ> ( - -/|
[15:53] <nxvl_> almost 10 am here
[15:53] <nxvl_> (peru)
[15:53] <zarej> good afternoon to all(Serbia)
[15:53] <blaa> sawaddee kha from Thailand
[15:54] <DShepherd> Spidernet, good morning to you
[15:54] <willwill> SvZ$ foreigners didn't use japanese emoticons?
[15:54] <Spidernet> i feel so nice know that we are for a cose here..
[15:54] <DShepherd> DShepherd, almost 10am here to (Jamaica)
[15:54] <DShepherd> too*
[15:54] <nickagian> afternoon people from Greece
[15:55] <Spidernet> hi nickagian
[15:55] <jestin> good morning from Kansas City (USA)
[15:55] <deukalionas> hi from athens
[15:55] <deandelponte> Ahh... wish I was in Jamaica... Wisconsin USA here
[15:55] <ceno-byte> hello from Florida
[15:55] <sgtd> deandelponte: Wisconsin USA here too.
[15:55] <bullgard4> Hello from Berlin!
[15:55] <rff> when's the next session?
[15:56] <ceno-byte> 5 min
[15:56] <ubunturos> rff, 1500 hrs UTC
[15:56] <bullgard4> rff: in 4 mins time.
[15:56] <rff> thank you!
[15:56]  * ubunturos notes the nick count reaching one short of 200
[15:56] <jim> hi from andros
[15:57] <willwill> ubunturos$ yes, another one
[15:57] <bullgard4> jim: What does 'andros' mean?
[15:57] <Spidernet> andros? hi there
[15:57] <deukalionas> hi jim
[15:57] <nickagian> hi jim from andros
[15:57] <blaa> hi grandfather pFz[0]
[15:57] <jim> is an island from greece
[15:57] <pFz[0]> I just 12
[15:57] <bullgard4> jim: Thank you for explaining.
[15:57] <dampyre_> hi
[15:57] <siriusly> hello from Plymouth UK
[15:58] <dampyre_> hello from chile
[15:58] <blaa> pFz[0]: <-- grandfather from thailand
[15:58] <tdwester> Hello from Boise Idaho
[15:58] <foutrelis> :)
[15:58] <jono> hi everyone :)
[15:59] <keithcleaveruk> hi jono
[15:59] <foutrelis> Do I see greeks in here? :P
[15:59] <cbh|work> Hi,
[15:59] <emarkd> hello jono et al
[15:59] <j_ack> hi, jono
[15:59] <jono> hey
[15:59] <SvZ> Hi
[15:59] <jono> lets give it a few minute for latecomers to arrive
[15:59] <harkonen> the latecomer just arrived
[15:59] <jono> is someone logging this session?
[15:59] <popey> yes jono
[15:59] <Spidernet> greeks geeks :)
[15:59] <jono> cool
[15:59] <foutrelis> Spidernet: ;)
[16:00] <ubunturos> one second :)
[16:00] <cbh|work> For some reason I read 'latecomers' as 'racoons'. How odd.
[16:00] <willwill> blaa$ isn't pFz[0] is great-grandfather?
[16:00] <popey> For some reason I read 'latecomers' as 'community community community community community'. How odd.
[16:00] <blaa> willwill: that 's right !!!
[16:00] <willwill> good evening everybody from Asia/Bangkok, 10.00.34pm now
[16:00] <foutrelis> jono: Oh, you are the speaker at the first event. Hi :)
[16:00] <jono> popey: hehe
[16:00] <jono> heya foutrelis :)
[16:00] <cbh|work> Heh
[16:01]  * foutrelis smiles
[16:01] <ceno-byte> hi jono
[16:01] <willwill> popey$ that's the ubuntu way :)
[16:01] <jono> heya ceno-byte
[16:01] <isagani> my kalarm just went off :)
[16:01] <jono> ok
[16:02] <jono> I think we can get going :)
[16:02] <foutrelis> :)))
[16:02] <SvZ> willwill, õõ+
[16:02] <ubunturos> great :)
[16:02] <jono> hello everyone and welcome to Ubuntu Open Week!
[16:02] <unnamedXD> hello
[16:02] <jono> for those of you who don't know me, I am Jono, and I work as the Ubuntu Community Manager here at Canonical - my job is to help keep the Ubuntu communtity as happy and a fulfilling place as possible, to encourage people to get involved, to resolve problems and to help us all work together to really make Ubuntu rock
[16:03] <blaa> hi jono
[16:03] <OrcoFortran> hi jono
[16:03] <jono> hey bla
[16:03] <Spidernet> nice rocking with you!
[16:03] <jono> blaa OrcoFortran
[16:03] <_MMA_> jono: You forgot metalhead. ;) \m/
[16:03] <jono> :)
[16:03] <OrcoFortran> cool job you have
[16:03] <willwill> jono$ do you help the LoCoTeams too?
[16:03] <jono> the Ubuntu community is a pretty stunning place, and one that encourages a variety of different types of contribution, from packaging, to translations, bug triage, artwork, multimedia, training, development, advocacy, support and more
[16:03] <SvZ> hi jono
[16:03] <dholbach> Three Cheers For The Open Week! :-)
[16:03] <mrevell> hip hip
[16:04] <robbe13_> hurra
[16:04] <greg-g> horay!
[16:04] <OrcoFortran> horay!
[16:04] <nansub0111> hello
[16:04] <mrevell> :)
[16:04] <jono> :)
[16:04] <pedro_> viva!
[16:04] <robbe13_> !!
[16:04] <popey> Can we please keep comments and questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:04] <jono> our community has been a key component in what has enables Ubuntu to be so successful - on one side there is a powerful, easy to use Linux distribution, but its foundation is an open, fun, committed community that works together to make some pretty incredible things happen
[16:05] <jono> the success of Ubuntu is the success of this community, and we should all feel proud and all part of Ubuntu's continued growth
[16:06] <jono> one of the key aspects of the Ubuntu community is its openness - we have worked to build a community that is as open and community governed as possible, with tools such as the Code Of Conduct, Community Council, Team Councils and other structures to help the community feel open, independent and effective
[16:07] <jono> as part of my own work, I have two people who work for me - Daniel Holbach (dholbach) who works on developer relations and is working to grow and scale the Ubuntu developer community - he is primarily working on MOTU. In addition to Daniel, Jorge Castro (jcastro) works on upstream relations - he works with other software projects to help them work as effectively with the Ubuntu community as possible - together we are the three horsemen :)
[16:08]  * dholbach bows
[16:08] <jcastro> hi!
[16:08] <jono> if any of you have any questions or concerns about the community, our door is always open, and feel free to get in touch to discuss things
[16:09] <Hobbsee> they bite.
[16:09] <jono> so, lets talk Ubuntu Open Week
[16:10] <jono> this week is a special week of IRC tutorial sessions that help new contributors get involved in the incredible Ubuntu community
[16:10] <jono> each session is intended to provide a tutorial to the covered topic, and each session is delivered by an expert in that particular field
[16:10] <jono> so, lets have a look at some of the highlights:
[16:11] <jono> first of all, packaging is a critical component in Ubuntu, and many sessions this week focus on packaging, how to do it, and how to get involved in the MOTU (masters of the universe) project that produces packages for hundreds and hundreds of different applications
[16:12] <jono> a great session for learning packaging is the Packaging 101 session at 15.00UTC tomorrow and at 19.00UTC on Wednesday - this will be led by Daniel Holbach, one of the key members of the MOTU project
[16:13] <jono> there are also sessions on patching packages and a MOTU Q+A later in the week
[16:13] <jono> other technical sessions include the kernel team session later at 20.00UTC, a bazaar session on Friday at 19.00UTC and more
[16:13] <jono> if advocacy is more your interest, see the range of sessions on LoCo teams, mentoring, Ubuntu Women and more
[16:14] <jono> we also have a number of sessions about Launchpad, and a range of sessions covering the derivative distributions in the Ubuntu world such as Kubuntu, Gobuntu, Xubuntu and Ubuntu Studio
[16:15] <_MMA_> w00t!
[16:15] <jono> finally, I will be doing a Q+A session where you can ask your burning questions about the community on Wed at 15.00UTC, and Mark Shuttleworth will be available for all your questions on Wed after my session at 16.00UTC
[16:15] <jono> I will also have time for a few questions in this session
[16:15] <jono> I think its safe to say it is going to be an action packed week - bring it on!
[16:16] <jono> so, let me explain how it works
[16:16] <jono> in this room the session leader will deliver the session. most sessions last around 30 - 40 minutes and then have questions at the end
[16:17] <jono> questions should be asked in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefixed with "QUESTION" - e.g. "QUESTION: how do I do foo?"
[16:17] <jono> the session leader will then be able to look at the questions and answer them in this channel
[16:18] <jono> as the week continues, you will be able to find logs of the sessions on the main Ubuntu Open Week website - they are linked there - thanks to the incredible scribes team for helping here
[16:18] <jono> I would like to say a big thanks to everyone getting involved in Ubuntu Open Week, and if you are new to our community, I look forward to chatting and hopefully meeting you in the future - welcome to our community, I really hope you enjoy it :)
[16:19] <jono> right, that is allI wanted to say to introduce the week, I am happy to fill the remaining time with questions, so take it away folks - ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:19] <popey> jono: we have some lined up
[16:19] <popey> < bullgard4> QUESTION We have about 100 subscribers in our ubuntu-berlin mailing list. But in our IRC channel #ubuntu-berlin a maximum of 20 people appears. How to activate them to the IRC channel?
[16:19] <jono> popey: great
[16:21] <jono> bullgard4: hmmm, if you mean no more than 20 people seem to be able to join, that is an IRC question, and I recommend you ask in #freenode - as for encouraging more people onto IRC, I would send a few emails to the mailing list to encourage people to join the IRC channel and get involved in the discussions
[16:21] <deandelponte> Yes, it was, sorry
 QUESTIONS: Why made gobuntu when gNewSense already free[dom] ubuntu? Didn't gNewSense merge to Gobuntu project?
[16:22] <Hobbsee> bullgard4: is this #ubuntu-de?
[16:22] <jono> Hobbsee: #ubuntu-classroom-chat please :)
[16:22] <bullgard4> Hobbsee: No
[16:22] <jono> willwill: I am not involved in Gobuntu directly, so I am not the right person to ask, but as far as I am aware, it was so that the project could be part of the official Ubuntu family, and to produce a distro with absolute freedom
[16:23] <jono> willwill: I think it is best to ask the Gobuntu team about that :)
[16:23] <popey> < clemyeats> QUESTION: To jcastro, what level of cooperation can we expect between Ubuntu and Linux Mint and are there any plans on that in the near future?
[16:23] <willwill> jono$ thank you
[16:23] <rbs-tito> jono: Any chance of the gnewsense team getting on board with gobuntu, a merger?
[16:23] <jono> willwill: :)
[16:23] <alextrax> hi to all
[16:23] <jcastro> popey: generating a response, give me a minute.
[16:23] <popey> ALL: can we keep chat to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please, many thanks
[16:24] <jono> rbs-tito: again, I am not the best person to ask - I am not involved there
[16:24] <Hobbsee> bullgard4: (and others who read this):  doesn't look to be a freenode limitation.  channel should be fine with 1000+ people, there's no limiter on it.
[16:25] <jono> Hobbsee: #ubuntu-classroom-chat, please :)
[16:25] <Hobbsee> jono: OK.  i wont help answering anything else, even if it's been explicitly asked.
[16:25] <jono> Hobbsee: do answer, just not in here, in there :)
[16:26] <jcastro> popey: Clearly our relationship with derivatives is important, but I haven't really started pursuing derivatives like Mint (yet), though I will eventually once we we're finished with FOSSCamp and UDS. That being said if someone from Mint were to bug me over mail or so with concerns I will do my best to get those addressed.
[16:27] <popey> < ubunturos> QUESTION: who's in the scribes team?
[16:27] <popey> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-scribes/+members may help here
[16:27] <jono> ubunturos: see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScribesTeam
[16:28] <popey> < deandelponte> QUESTION:  Where can I find information about packaging a Java application to be included in one of the repositories?
[16:28] <jono> I think dholbach is a good person to answer this
[16:28] <jono> dholbach: is that ok?
[16:28] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment#NewPackages
[16:29] <dholbach> deandelponte: ^
[16:29] <jono> :)
[16:29] <popey> < MartinW> QUESTION: How do you feel about the hundreds of different versions of Ubuntu (Gobuntu, Ubuntu Ultimate, Ubuntu CE etc.)
[16:29] <jono> MartinW: good question
[16:29] <jono> its always a tough one, because choice is such a good and bad thing
[16:30] <jono> on side side, its incredible to see such choice, so many different versions, each with a special focus and speciality
[16:30] <rbs-tito> Ubuntu Satanic edition was one step too far by my records :)
[16:30] <jono> and the other hand it can feel like the Ubuntu world is diluted
[16:30] <jono> my views is that I love seeing these additional versions
[16:30] <jono> but I spend most of my time on Ubuntu proper
[16:31] <jono> we really do encourage plenty of derivatives, and naturally encourage people to get involved in Ubuntu itself
[16:31] <jono> and many of the derivatives are very similar to the main Ubuntu version, particularly the core platform
[16:31] <jono> so there is often not much difference
[16:31] <popey> < DShepherd> QUESTION: will the community be able to vote on the features for newer ubuntu releases before they are decided on?
[16:32] <rbs-tito> popey: A good example of that is the Gutsy wallpaper
[16:32] <popey> rbs-tito: ---> #ubuntu-classroom-chat is that way
[16:32] <jono> DShepherd: the way it works right now is that the community are welcome to suggest new features and ideas for a new version, and propose these features for discussion at the Ubuntu Developer Summit
[16:33] <jono> new features are written up as specifications, discussed at the Summit and then implemented
[16:33] <jono> anyone and everyone is welcome to get involved in this process
[16:33] <jono> right now there is no formal means of generating an idea of popularity of certain features, but this is something I am looking into at the moment
[16:34] <popey> < FayZee> QUESTION: Will the logs of this classroom-chat appear alongside the logs of the classroom?
[16:34] <jono> FayZee: they usually don't as far as I am aware, but would be nice if they did :)
[16:34] <popey> I am logging both, so I can provide them if people want them, but generally the -chat sessions aren't pasted on the wiki as I remember
[16:35] <popey> < ceno-byte> QUESTION:How would does somebody get a job working for Canonical?
[16:35] <jono> ceno-byte: heh, I get this one asked a fair amount :)
[16:35] <jono> ceno-byte: just, be good
[16:35] <jono> thats all
[16:35] <jono> we are always looking for good people
[16:35] <jono> and we are a company that is growing quickly, and we look to the community to hire a lot of people
[16:36] <jono> but do good work, and keep you eye on the Careers page on ubuntu.com
[16:36] <jono> :)
[16:36] <popey> < jason_> QUESTION: Ubuntu is based on Debian, so why is there a duplication in effort with packaging?
[16:36] <jono> jason_: again, I will ask dholbach to answer this one
[16:37] <dholbach> jason_: it's not a real duplication of efforts: we basically import source packages from Debian unstable and rebuild them automatically on the start of the release cycle for a certain while
[16:38] <dholbach> jason_: we actually don't re-package everything, we merge packages where we have ubuntu changes
[16:38] <dholbach> those changes are available at http://merges.ubuntu.com
[16:38] <ccm> I's looking for a place in the wiki to find the upcoming community council meetings. Are they only announced in the very channel topic?
[16:38] <jason_> dholbach: thanks
[16:38] <popey> < vladimir_e> QUESTION: Do packages contributed to Ubuntu find their way to Debian?
[16:39] <jono> hehe, dholbach?
[16:39] <jono> :)
[16:39]  * jono gleefully passes packaging Q's to dholbach :)
[16:39] <dholbach> vladimir_e: there's the utnubu team (ubuntu backwards) who actively work on that, also lots of folks follow up on debian bug reports about new packages (ITPs and RFPs) and inform about new packages that entered ubuntu
[16:40] <dholbach> (also there's merges.ubuntu.com and patches.ubuntu.com which contain patches for existing packages)
[16:40] <popey> < meka> QUESTION: what's the reasoning behind LoCo (why not LUGs, or UUGs). If it's just a finacial reason (gethering more ubuntu-only users) i understand partialy. Isn't it better to have as much FOSS people in "one place" as posible?
[16:41] <jono> meka: its nothing to do with finances
[16:41] <jono> the LoCo project is there to grow a worldwide network of groups enthused with advocating Ubuntu
[16:41] <jono> they are not there to replace LUGs
[16:41] <jono> and they are not there to compete with LUGs
[16:41] <jono> they are just groups of Ubuntu fans in a particular region who work together to spread the word about Ubuntu
[16:42] <jono> many of the LoCo team contributors still go to LUGs, they just work with LoCo teams too
[16:42] <jono> the LoCo project is a *stunning* project :)
[16:42] <popey> < vladimir_e> QUESTION: Does Ubuntu support any sort of certification as LPI and such?
[16:42] <jono> vladimir_e: there is work going into Ubuntu Training Courses
[16:43] <jono> vladimir_e: see the training session later in the week about it
[16:43] <jcastro> http://www.ubuntu.com/training/certificationcourses/professional
[16:43] <jono> thu at 3pm UTC
[16:43] <popey> < XiXaQ> QUESTION: some of the most popular applications in ubuntu, especially evolution and gnucash, have their channels on other networks, like gimpnet and oftc. Is anything being done to convince them to move here?
[16:44] <jono> XiXaQ: not really, it makes sense for their channels to be wherever they like - most people tend to have their projects on Freenode, but there are exceptions
[16:44] <jono> its not really an Ubuntu problem
[16:44] <popey> < tuxmaniac> QUESTION: Does Ubuntu install proprietary drivers without any notifications to the user? I am of the impression that not all hardware proprietary drivers are listed in the Restricted Drivers Manager. Is it true?
[16:44] <jono> tuxmaniac: I am not the best person to ask - ask in #ubuntu-devel
[16:45] <popey> < mybunche> QUESTION: One of the attractions of Ubuntu is that it's feels more global. The next UDS is in Boston, will the next UDS be in Asia? And are other locations considered?
[16:45] <jono> mybunche: we generally switch between the US and Europe, but we are always looking into alternative locations too - personally, I would love us to do one in Asia
[16:45] <jono> but there are many factors to consider in where we host it
[16:46] <popey> < DShepherd> QUESTION: What is the procedure to folllow if a community member wishes to suggest features for newer Ubuntu releases?
[16:46] <jono> DShepherd: write a detailed specification about how the feature should work, gather input from the community, and then propose the specification for discussion at the next UDS
[16:46] <jono> DShepherd: there are guides on the Ubuntu wiki to show how to make a spec
[16:47] <popey> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpecSpec is useful
[16:47] <popey> < J_K9> QUESTION: If Canonical is looking for a particular skill in a new employee, how do they usually go about finding the right person for the job in the FOSS community?
[16:47] <jono> J_K9: well, various routes - we naturally list jobs on our careers page, but we also hire people based on recommendations or experience working with them as community volunteers
[16:48] <jono> we also keep an eye on many different communities for good people
[16:48] <popey> < warp10> QUESTION: Do you think there is a possibility for our Community and Dell to increase their relationships and knowledge sharing, to improve Dell support for Ubuntu?
[16:49] <jono> warp10: I think so - there is a great support community on the ubuntu forums, as for Dell being more open to us, I think it takes time - these relationships take time to refine and develop, but Dell are doing great work here :)
[16:49] <jono> I hope the relationship continues to prosper and grow :)
[16:49] <popey> < meka> QUESTION: jono, i'm dumb when it comes to licences, so can my university play your tracks (i know it's CC licence), and if so, is there a obligations of some kind ("this track is produced by ... " or something)?
[16:50] <jono> meka: if you mean my personal music on recreantview.org, yep the license allows anyone to play it, share it, remix and modify it, just provide credit
[16:50] <popey> < Xbehave> QUESTION: how does development break down between kubuntu and ubuntu? as a kubuntu user i find that we seam to get the new features about a release behind
[16:52] <jono> Xbehave: the core platform (most of the bits under the GUI) are shared, but all specs are discussed at the UDS, its just that sometimes bits of GUI work come a bit later with Kubuntu - this is something I hope will change as we are now monitors specs better for GUI requirements
[16:52] <keogh> que hora es orita en españa?
[16:52] <popey> < willwill> QUESTION, again: I heard from Mr.Thep (Thai l10n GNOME Maintainer) that contributions to LP isn't reach upstream but jtv(one of canonical staff, live in thailand) said that LP will have a feature that send contributions to upstream. Is this true? Is it is automatically?
[16:53] <jono> mrevell: can you answer this one?
[16:53] <jono> (mrevell works with the LP team)
[16:54] <jono> I think he must be away
[16:54] <mrevell> hi
[16:54]  * mrevell reads up
[16:54] <jono> oh
[16:54] <jono> :)
[16:55] <mrevell> Ah, looks like we're talking about translations.
[16:55] <mrevell> If a project isn't using Launchpad Translations officially, then we don't push those translations automatically.
[16:55] <mrevell> However
[16:55] <mrevell> with the release of Launchpad 1.1.10 coming this Wednesday
[16:56] <mrevell> we will hide the "translations" app for projects that don't use it
[16:56] <mrevell> so you won't be able to make translations that would be wasted.
[16:56] <mrevell> Hope that helps.
[16:56] <jono> ok, one final one popey
[16:56] <popey> ok, jono, pick a number between 1 and 6
[16:57] <jono> 3
[16:57] <popey> < ccm> QUESTION: are all ubuntu related dates welcome on the fridge event ical/event list or do the teams/locos have to have a minimum size?
[16:57] <willwill> mrevell$ thanks
[16:57] <mrevell> np
[16:57] <jono> ccm: all are welcome :)
[16:57] <jono> right
[16:57] <jono> thanks everyone
[16:58] <popey> thanks jono
[16:58] <XiXaQ> thank you. :)
[16:58] <jono> thanks popey :)
[16:58] <peppych__> thx
[16:58] <jono> enjoy the rest of open week all :)
[16:58] <sn0> thx :)
[16:58] <dholbach> thanks jono :)
[16:58] <soren> popey: Will you stick around to do the question managing thing for my session as well?
[16:58] <popey> sure
[16:58]  * soren hugs popey
[16:58] <jono> there will be another Q+A at 3pm on wed, bring your questions there :)
[16:58] <popey> prv me "next" when you want the next question
[16:59] <michaelramm> Hello, Soren!
[17:00] <soren> popey: Will do.
[17:00] <OrcoFortran> thanks :)
[17:00] <soren> alright, welcome everybody!
[17:00] <soren> My name is Soren, and I work for Canonical on Ubuntu's server edition.
[17:01] <soren> Please keep the questions coming as I haven't prepared a whole lot in advance.
[17:01] <soren> Our launchpad page is as http://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-server
[17:02] <soren> We also have a mailing list, which you can subscribe to from http://lists.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-server
[17:02] <soren> ...and of course an IRC channel #ubuntu-server. You're always welcome to stop by either of those with your questions or if you want to help out and answer questions from time to time.
[17:03] <OrcoFortran> Question: I know this is not under canonical's control,however, is canonical working with dell to bring ubuntu preloaded on server?
[17:03] <soren> The server edition of ubuntu uses the same collection of packages as the desktop version.
[17:03] <soren> We only don't install very many packages from the start.
[17:03] <popey> OrcoFortran: questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[17:03] <OrcoFortran> sorry
[17:03] <soren> This means that you can without any problems install server packages on your desktop, or even install gnome on your server.
[17:04] <soren> Mind you, if you install gnome on your server installation, that doesn't make any questions about that suitable for the #ubuntu-server channel. It's still desktop stuff :)
[17:04] <popey> < gehel_> QUESTION : will we see more Java Integration in the future ? Especially things like GlassFish, or other application servers ?
[17:04] <soren> Er..  To be honest, I don't know what Glassfish is :)
[17:04] <soren> Regarding java:
[17:04] <gehel_> Glassfish is the opensource application server from SUN
[17:05] <soren> It's always been a bit troublesome due to licensing issues.
[17:05] <soren> ...but since Sun is in the process of freeing it, I expect to see it becoming more seamlessly available.
[17:06] <soren> I don't think there's anything in particular planned in that respect,
[17:06] <soren> but if you have specific suggestions, feel free to file blueprints on launchpad and write a specification about it and we'll take a look.
[17:06] <soren> ...or you can do the hard work yourself and help us out!
[17:06] <dholbach> glassfish is in the archive since feisty already.
[17:07] <soren> Oh, cool.
[17:07] <popey> < DrDabbles> QUESTION: What efforts are being made to advance the ease of configuration for ubuntu servers? Efforts such as ebox, etc.?
[17:08] <soren> For gutsy we added a set of easily selectable tasks that was meant to make some commonly needed packages easier to install.
[17:08] <alextrax> starting upgrading to 7.10
[17:08] <soren> For hardy, we're going to be working on getting eBox included.
[17:08] <soren> eBox will provide a simple and easy to use web interface for a set of services commonly needed by small business kind of setups.
[17:08] <soren> DNS, dhcp, proxy, vpn, etc..
[17:09] <soren> Next week is UDS where we'll be looking at what else we can do to make everything easier.
[17:09] <soren> If you have suggestions, please e-mail us at ubuntu-server@lists.ubuntu.com or file blueprints on launchpad.
[17:10] <soren> ...or stop by UDS in Boston next week and discuss things with us.
[17:10] <popey> < Linuturk> QUESTION: What will we see as far as thin clients and the "ease of use" for administering servers?
[17:10] <soren> That's really two separate questions.
[17:10] <soren> Edubuntu is focused on thin clients.
[17:10] <soren> If you want that sort of functionality, edubuntu does that out of the box (as far as I know) :)
[17:11] <soren> I believe I answered "ease of use for adminsterings servers" a minute ago :)
[17:11] <soren> If not, please rephrase your question.
[17:11] <popey> < mybunche> QUESTION: In the future Will Ubuntu Server have a GUI? Maybe something like [windows] home server?
[17:12] <soren> I'm not familiar with windows home server, but eBox is a shiny web interface, which is likely to be the most gui-like interface you're going to see in a while.
[17:12] <soren> UNIX servers and gui's are traditionally not something that goes hand in hand.
[17:12] <soren> :)
[17:12] <popey> < OrcoFortran> Question: I know this is not under canonical's control,however, is canonical working with dell to bring ubuntu preloaded on server?
[17:13] <soren> To be perfectly honest: I haven't a clue :)
[17:13] <loofi> Hi Soren. Can we expect a role for XEN server under installation in the near future?
[17:13] <popey> < Linuturk> QUESTION: Have you considered fluxbox as a lightweight gui for windows admins moving to linux?
[17:13] <popey> loofi: questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[17:13] <soren> No, and I don't think that's the right way to go.
[17:14] <soren> fluxbox doesn't look like anything (s)he's used to, so I don't think it'll be of much use to him/her.
[17:14] <soren> ...in the sense that it doesn't provide a familiar environment anyway, so it seems a bit pointless.
[17:14] <popey> < J_K9> QUESTION: Will Ubuntu Server adopt a more modular approach in the future, in which more preset configurations and software selections become available?
[17:15] <soren> Yes, indeed.
[17:15] <soren> We added the task selection step in the server installer for gutsy as a start.
[17:15] <soren> If you have suggestions for more tasks (and which packages should be included in those tasks) just give us a shout and we'll look into it.
[17:16] <popey> < XiXaQ> QUESTION: The new mailserver task is brilliant. It simplifies alot. Will you keep adding new tasks, and if so, what will they be?
[17:16] <popey> slight dupe, sorry
[17:16] <soren> Er, yeah, that was answered a second ago. However..
[17:16] <soren> With regard to being modular, I think ubuntu server is highly modular already.
[17:16] <soren> We don't force any superfluous software onto your system.
[17:17] <soren> so you can pick the exact pieces you need to solve your puzzle :)
[17:17] <popey> < Linuturk> QUESTION: I've been told a few times in #ubuntu-server that said channel isn't for support. Is this true, and/or can that be clarified in the topic of the channel?
[17:17] <soren> The current topic is: Ubuntu Server discussion and support | for general (not server specific) support visit #ubuntu | Seriously good guide to asking questions on IRC: http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/linuxHelpAsk.html
[17:18] <soren> It already says "support".
[17:18] <soren> Up until about a year ago (I think) it was a development only channel, but we changed it, so feel free to stop by and ask your questions.
[17:18] <popey> < rick_h_> QUESTION: Is there going to be a well defined list of known issues in doing an LTS->LTS server upgrade?
[17:19] <soren> Yes, we'll include that sort of thing in the release notes.
[17:19] <_MMA_> ;)
[17:19] <_MMA_> (sorry)
[17:19] <soren> That's what they're for, after all :)
[17:19] <popey> < MartinW> QUESTION: I want to setup a basic LAMP server for my computer studies final project. Do you know a good guide?
[17:19] <rick_h_> well, just checking it'll be more LTS -> LTS than Gutsy->Hardy
[17:20] <soren> During install you can select the "LAMP server" task.
[17:20] <soren> That should set everything up for you. If you're having problems with it, stop by our IRC channel or e-mail the mailing list and we'll do our best to help you out.
[17:21] <popey> < agy> Question: What is Canonical's strategy with Landscape (http://www.canonical.com/landscape) and when can we expect to see something of it? Could you explain it a little more?
[17:21] <soren> Uh, that's a tough one :)
[17:21] <soren> Landscape is a service provided by Canonical to our support customers.
[17:22] <soren> It allows you to manage and monitor a large set of Ubuntu machines easily.
[17:22] <soren> IIRC, tt is currently in its beta phase..
[17:23] <soren> if you want to try it out, you can find more info on:
[17:23] <soren> http://www.canonical.com/landscape
[17:23] <soren> At the bottom there's a link to a page where you can sign up for a trial.
[17:23] <popey> < Muzik-qs> QUESTION: Is there any effort going into an ubuntu desktop management server which is free and open for the community to use -- along the lines of RHN from Redhat (which only runs on their servers and tells you about what you have support for) or SMS from Microsoft?
[17:24] <soren> I'm afraid I'm not sure what either of those provide, so it's a bit hard for me to tell you what we offer that matches it.
[17:24] <soren> It's quite possible that landscape fits into that space, but I'm not sure.
[17:25] <soren> Rumour has it that we're getting low on questions, so keep 'em coming!
[17:25] <popey> FYI: RHN provides a centralised web based management tool
[17:25] <popey> people can logon to RHN and see what updates are pending for all their systems
[17:25] <Muzik```> I've never used landscape before, I'm just looking from the previous question.  Can it be run on a local server (or does it reside at canonical hq?)
[17:25] <soren> I see. That's sort of what landscape does too, I believe.
[17:26] <soren> You install a (free as in speech) client on your machines and manage them from a web interface running on Canonical servers.
[17:26] <popey> < J_K9> QUESTION: Can you spill the beans on some interesting, upcoming features in Ubuntu Server?
[17:27] <soren> Well, nothing is set in stone yet.
[17:27] <soren> We'll be discussing things at UDS next week and only then will we know what exactly we'll be spending the next 6 months doing.
[17:28] <soren> A lot of it is going to be "boring" stuff like making sure Dapper->Hardy upgrades work without a hitch, but there's lots of room for shiny new stuff.
[17:28] <soren> ...but since nothing's really decided yet, there's still time to suggest new things, and you can also work on things yourself and we can include them! The sky is the limit! :)
[17:29] <popey> < gonzalo> Question: Are there any plans for another LTS Server version?
[17:29] <soren> I'm not sure what you mean. Hardy (the release scheduled for release in April 2008) will be an LTS release.
[17:29] <soren> If that doesn't answer your question, just ask again.
[17:30] <popey> < evarlast> Q: Are there plans to fork the server into a conventional server vs. a Home-Server? Where Home Service might not include email, ldap and "enterprise" services, but instead NAS, UPnP Music, and automatic disk management ?
[17:30] <soren> Well, as I mentioned earlier, ubuntu is a really modular beast.
[17:30] <soren> You can start out with a bare bones install and just cherry pick the components you want (e-mail, vpn, etc.)
[17:31] <soren> ...so there's really no need to separate it into several editions.
[17:31] <soren> The reason we've split desktop and server is because of space on the CD.
[17:31] <soren> ...or lack thereof :)
[17:32] <popey> < J_K9> QUESTION: How does Ubuntu's Server team approach security?
[17:32] <soren> We have people dedicated to a) monitoring security mailings lists for new vulnerabilites and b) doing auditing of our existing software.
[17:33] <soren> when they come across issues, they prepare fixes for all our support releases. currently, that means Dapper, Edgy, Feisty, and Gutsy.
[17:33] <soren> These updates should be easily available on any ubuntu system and only be a  quick apt-get update && apt-get upgrade away.
[17:34] <popey> < stani> QUESTION: What is the best performing virtualisation platform (ease to install, speed, ...) for Ubuntu Server?
[17:34] <soren> Good question.
[17:34] <soren> Like many good questions, it doesn't have a good answer, though :)
[17:34] <soren> Different virtualisation systems have different requirements of the hosts and different limitations.
[17:35] <soren> IMO there's really no one virtualisation system that gives you everything.
[17:35] <soren> They all have their quirks and downsides.
[17:35] <soren> It really depends on your needs.
[17:35] <popey> < mralphabet> QUESTION: What are short term and long term plans for backports (non security, rather feature enhancements - IE mysql or php or samba) for LTS?
[17:36] <soren> Well, we don't support backports, actually.
[17:37] <soren> The ubuntu backports project (sort of a separate project) provide backports of various software, but it's not really supported.
[17:37] <soren> We support security updates and serious bug fixes. That's it.
[17:37] <popey> < effie_jayx> QUESTION: what makes the server kernel special?
[17:37] <popey> [compared to desktop kernel i suspect this means]
[17:37] <effie_jayx> yep :D
[17:37] <soren> That's a really good question. Let me check.
[17:38] <effie_jayx> I ask because many people install desktop and start adding server functionality... but the kernel is different in some way
[17:38] <charlesnw> right.
[17:39] <charlesnw> it includes things like ipvs and such
[17:39] <soren> Hm... There's different settings for io scheduling and stuff like that.
[17:39] <soren> The selection of drivers seems to be the same.
[17:39] <popey> max memory settings are higher in the bigiron kernels also?
[17:40] <soren> I'm not sure of the details, to be honest.
[17:40] <soren> popey: We dropped the -bigiron flavour for gutsy, actually :)
[17:40] <charlesnw> soren: interesting
[17:40] <charlesnw> I never ran -bigiron on any systems. always -server
[17:40] <charlesnw> on servers of course. :)
[17:41] <popey> < evarlast> QUESTION: Any plans on having Xen by default?
[17:41] <soren> Not that I know of.
[17:41] <soren> That was an easy one :)
[17:41] <popey> < Linuturk> QUESTION: What is the target audience for Landscape, and will you have to pay for support through Canonical to use such a system? What is the target audience for the beta?
[17:41] <charlesnw> I found it greatly helped performance with my vmware system ( I run vmware server on Feisty Fawn host and dapper guests). run server kernel on host and in all guests
[17:41] <popey> charlesnw: please take chat to #ubuntu-classroom-chat, thanks
[17:42] <charlesnw> ah sure
[17:42] <soren> It's not really my area of expertise, but I'll try to answer nonetheless.
[17:42] <soren> Landscape is a service provided to support customers.
[17:42] <soren> It targets organisations with many ubuntu systems that would like to manage them from a central place.
[17:43] <soren> The target audience for the beta is almost the same, except you don't have to be a paying support customer.
[17:43] <soren> I don't know what will happen when the beta period is over.
[17:43] <popey> < nealmcb> QUESTION: What plans are there for improved directory and authentication support, better integration with AD, etc?
[17:44] <soren> We hope to make it a lot easier for an Ubuntu system to use ldap or kerberos for authentication in Hardy.
[17:45] <nealmcb> s/integration/interoperation/  :-)
[17:45] <soren> It's something that is needed in enterprise settings and that is an interesting place to get into :)
[17:45] <soren> We hope that we'll be able to include an easily available ldap server thing, too.
[17:46] <soren> We'll know more post UDS :)
[17:46] <popey> < tazz> Question: What was the need to come up with ubuntu server, when we already have debian?
[17:47] <soren> Well, Ubuntu has a much shorter relaese cycle than Debian.
[17:47] <soren> This means that every 6 months you can get a fresh, supported server software stack.
[17:48] <tazz> ah, ok so the deference between the 2 of them is the release cycle?
[17:48] <soren> Currently, there's actually very little difference between Ubuntu server and a Debian server, but that might change in the future.
[17:49] <soren> Many people find themselves in a situation where they want to run Debian stable, but they also need some new software. This forces them to maintain a system that is a mix of stable and testing and that can cause all sort of problems.
[17:49] <tazz> oh, ok i get it now :-)
[17:50] <soren> If all goes well, every 6 months, you can have a fresh selection of packages that we've spent a great deal of time on making sure interacts properly.
[17:50] <popey> < popey> QUESION: I see there is some discussion regarding bringing newer versions of SAMBA into Ubuntu Server. Can you briefly talk about the decisions that have been made in this areas and why?
[17:50] <popey> [dapper specifically]
[17:50] <soren> We will not be bringing a new version of Samba into Dapper.
[17:50] <soren> That's not our policy.
[17:51] <soren> We will, however, do our best to identify the precise problems in Samba in Dapper and fix those.
[17:52] <soren> Just taking a new version of Samba might cause problems for existing users, and to be perfectly honest, I think not breaking things that already works is more important than fixing other problems.
[17:52] <soren> That doesn't mean we shouldn't fix them, but we should be absolutely sure that we don't break existing setups in the process.
[17:52] <xworkming> Any one able to give me a hand
[17:52] <popey> < sommer> QUESTION: I noticed that DB2 is certified to run on Ubuntu, is work being done to certify other proprietary software to work on Ubuntu?
[17:53] <soren> Yes
[17:53] <soren> next question, please. :)
[17:53] <popey> xworkming: there is a session on at the moment, you might want to move over to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[17:53] <popey> < ubuntu_demon> QUESTION: What's a good FLOSS virtualization platform available for Ubuntu (in main) for VPS (Virtual Private Server) where each VPS hosts another website ?
[17:53] <soren> Hmm...
[17:54] <soren> I'm not sure, actually.
[17:54] <xworkming> I need to install cli only
[17:54] <xworkming> What would i need to write out for the boot parameters on Gutsy?
[17:54] <Amaranth> xworkming: This is not the place
[17:54] <soren> I'm going to have to pass on that question. We can talk later, sommer, ok?
[17:54] <xworkming> There are so many ubuntu chanels
[17:54] <ubuntu_demon> soren: np :)
[17:54] <popey> < Ubersoldat> QUESTION: Do you believe Ubuntu Server is ready for mainstream use as a competition for RHEL?
[17:55] <sommer> soren: np... just realized it was worded as a yes or no
[17:55] <soren> Yes.
[17:55] <soren> In a word, yes :)
[17:56] <sommer> cool thanks soren.
[17:56] <soren> We've proven to be quick with security fixes, we got a massive selection of packages to choose from.
[17:56] <soren> sommer: Oh, that wasn't an answer to your question. :)
[17:56] <soren> I see not particular reason why we shouldn't be a good replacement for RHEL.
[17:57] <popey> < savvas> QUESTION: Any plans for more architectures to be supported by ubuntu-server?
[17:57] <soren> Not at the moment, no.
[17:57] <soren> do you have anything in particular in mind?
[17:57] <jefftUK> QUESTION: As architectures have been mentioned, can I ask about Java support on PPC?
[17:57] <savvas> no I was just curious, do go to the next question :)
[17:57] <soren> Alright.
[17:58] <soren> jefftUK: #ubuntu-classroom-chat, please.
[17:58] <popey> < J_K9> QUESTION: Are there any plans to simplify virtualization set-up and management in Ubuntu Server?
[17:58] <jefftUK> Typically it's something that most distros don't put a lot of effort into, but has the opening up by Sun made any difference in this area?
[17:58] <jefftUK> OK sorry.
[17:58] <popey> this is the last question.
[17:59] <soren> Yes, there is. I've created a script that makes is trivially easy to setup a virtual machine for vmware. I'll post info the server mailing list.
[17:59] <soren> Oh, right.
[17:59] <soren> Thanks for stoppy by, everyone.
[17:59] <popey> thanks very much soren and everyone for asking questions..
[17:59] <soren> #ubuntu-server is the irc channel for all the cool kids.
[18:00] <soren> See you there!
[18:00] <Amaranth> mrevell: Would you like your session to be moderated?
[18:00] <peppych__> thx soren
[18:00] <Ubersoldat> Thanks to you guys
[18:00] <tazz> thank you prof!
[18:00] <tazz> :-P
[18:00] <ubuntu_demon> thnx soren
[18:00] <mrevell> Amaranth: I don't mind, tbh. I'll be two minutes.
[18:00] <jefftUK> Thanks, my first session and I'll be back!
[18:00] <Amaranth> mrevell: I'll get it setup so we can flip it on if needed
[18:01] <mrevell> Amaranth: thank you :)
[18:01] <popey> Amaranth: you taking over?
[18:01] <Amaranth> popey: No, just trying to get things a little organized
[18:02] <mrevell> Okay, I'm good to go, I think :)
[18:02] <mrevell> Everyone ready?
[18:02] <keithcleaveruk> i'm ready
[18:02] <mrevell> Cool :)
[18:02] <mrevell> Hello and thanks for attending this session which is an introduction to Launchpad.
[18:03] <mrevell> Over the next hour, I'll tell you what Launchpad is, what you can do with it and a little about its role in the Ubuntu community.
[18:03] <mrevell> I'll also tell you when you can attend other Launchpad sessions during Ubuntu Open Week.
[18:03] <mrevell> So, what is Launchpad?
[18:03] <mrevell> Launchpad is a suite of tools that help you to take part in free software projects.
[18:03] <mrevell> There are six main Launchpad applications, each dealing with different parts of the development and life of a free software project.
[18:03] <mrevell> * Bug tracker - https://bugs.launchpad.net/
[18:03] <mrevell> * Code hosting - https://code.launchpad.net/
[18:03] <mrevell> * Translations - https://translations.launchpad.net/
[18:04] <mrevell> * Answers (user support) - https://answers.launchpad.net/
[18:04] <mrevell> * Blueprint (feature planning) - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/
[18:04] <mrevell> * Soyuz (package and distribution management) - more about Soyuz later.
[18:04] <mrevell> Projects can pick and choose which applications they want to use but the more of Launchpad that a project uses, the more useful it becomes.
[18:04] <mrevell>  
[18:04] <mrevell> Launchpad and Ubuntu
[18:04] <mrevell>  
[18:04] <mrevell> The Ubuntu community makes extensive use of Launchpad.
[18:04] <mrevell> Ubuntu's bugs are tracked in Launchpad:
[18:04] <mrevell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[18:04] <mrevell> You can translate Ubuntu using Launchpad:
[18:04] <mrevell> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[18:05] <mrevell> If you need help with Ubuntu, you can ask a question using Launchpad. Or, if you want to contribute back to the Ubuntu community by helping other people, you can answer their questions:
[18:05] <mrevell> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[18:05] <mrevell> You can propose new features and see future plans for Ubuntu:
[18:05] <mrevell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[18:05] <mrevell> Other projects use Launchpad too. For example, the Bazaar version control system, the Jokosher audio editor, the Zope web framework and others.
[18:05] <mrevell>  
[18:05] <mrevell> People in Launchpad
[18:05] <mrevell>  
[18:05] <mrevell> Before you can start using Launchpad, you need a Launchpad account. Signing up for one is easy. All you need is a working email address. You can find out how to create your Launchpad account in our guide at:
[18:05] <mrevell> https://help.launchpad.net/CreatingYourLaunchpadAccount
[18:06] <mrevell> Having your own Launchpad account will allow you to log into the Ubuntu wiki, use the Canonical shop, order ShipIt CDs and more. It's pretty important if you want to take part in the Ubuntu community.
[18:06] <mrevell> Once you've got your account, you can personalise it with information about yourself and a couple of photos!
[18:06] <mrevell> Launchpad isn't Facebook, though :-)
[18:06] <mrevell> Adding this sort of information to your profile can be really useful.
[18:06] <mrevell> Let's take a look at a real-life Launchpad user profile:
[18:06] <mrevell> https://launchpad.net/~alanpope
[18:07] <mrevell> If you're logged into Launchpad, you can see a short personal statement from Alan, how to contact him and some of what he has worked on in Launchpad.
[18:07] <mrevell> Launchpad is great at bringing free software people together
[18:07] <mrevell> For example: if I come across a feature blueprint that Alan has filed, and I like his idea. Let's say his idea is to create a new Ubuntu application for tracking information about Elvis impersonators.
[18:07] <mrevell> I want to help him flesh the idea out, so I click on his name on the blueprint page and it takes me to his Launchpad profile.
[18:07] <mrevell> On his profile page, I find out how to contact him, what other things he's been working on and I even get an idea of what he looks like!
[18:08] <mrevell> (Take a look at https://launchpad.net/~matthew.revell if you really want to see my picture.)
[18:08] <mrevell> Now, Alan is no longer a meaningless name but he's a person I can start working with.
[18:08] <mrevell> By clicking the tabs at the top of his profile, I can even see what he's been up to in each different part of Launchpad. Clicking the "Answers" tab, I see that he frequently answers people's support requests:
[18:08] <mrevell> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/~alanpope/
[18:09] <mrevell> Not only can someone with a Launchpad account contact other people but they can also take on certain roles, such as:
[18:09] <mrevell> * bug contact
[18:09] <mrevell> * project driver
[18:09] <mrevell> * official translator.
[18:09] <mrevell> They can also create and join teams.
[18:09] <mrevell>  
[18:09] <mrevell> Teams in Launchpad
[18:09] <mrevell>  
[18:09] <mrevell> So, Alan and I get together and decide that we want to work on our new Elvis impersonator tracker. We've also met some other people who want to get involved.
[18:10] <mrevell> We create a team at:
[18:10] <mrevell> https://launchpad.net/people/+newteam
[18:10] <mrevell> You can see an example of a real team at:
[18:10] <mrevell> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki
[18:10] <mrevell> It looks much like a person's profile. You can also see who is a member of the team, either as a list:
[18:10] <mrevell> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki/+members
[18:10] <mrevell> or as a group photo:
[18:11] <mrevell> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki/+mugshots
[18:11] <mrevell> Just like people, teams can also be members of other teams.
[18:11] <mrevell> This makes it easy to create a structure for a project or initiative within Launchpad.
[18:11] <mrevell>  The Ubuntu Wiki team is a member of the Ubuntu Documentation Project team, as you can see here:
[18:11] <mrevell> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki/+participation
[18:11] <mrevell> Teams are like people in other ways.
[18:11] <mrevell> They too can, for example, act as a project or Ubuntu package's bug contact.
[18:12] <mrevell> This means that whenever a new bug is filed against that project or package, everyone in that team is notified.
[18:12] <mrevell> Those team members also get the permissions of a bug contact, such as setting certain restricted bug statuses.
[18:12] <mrevell>  
[18:12] <mrevell> Blueprints
[18:12] <mrevell>  
[18:12] <mrevell> Remember earlier I mentioned blueprints?
[18:13] <mrevell> Well, just like blueprints in the world of architecture, Launchpad blueprints help to turn an idea into something a little more concrete.
[18:13] <mrevell> Blueprints are a flexible way for people to set out an idea, optionally with details of how they'd implement it.
[18:13] <mrevell> Let's take a look at an example:
[18:13] <mrevell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/free-flash
[18:14] <mrevell> Each blueprint can have a:
[18:14] <mrevell> * "Drafter" - the person who is responsible for setting out the idea
[18:14] <mrevell> * "Assignee" - the person who is going to implement the ideas set out in the blueprint
[18:14] <mrevell> * "Reviewer" - the person who'll check the work on the blueprint.
[18:14] <mrevell> You can see these in the top right of the page, along with an implementation status, priority and a definition.
[18:14] <mrevell> although anyone can create a blueprint, it's the project's drivers who get to choose its priority etc.
[18:15] <mrevell> There's something else in the top-right, too: the "series-goal".
[18:15] <mrevell> Launchpad helps projects and distributions to plan their releases in a number of ways.
[18:15] <mrevell> A distro-series or release-series is a major line of development.
[18:15] <mrevell> In Ubuntu's case, Gutsy is one of these distro-series.
[18:15] <mrevell> An important link on this page is "Read the full specification".
[18:16] <mrevell>  Launchpad Blueprint isn't designed to replace the wikis, mailing lists and other ways that projects use to organise themselves.
[18:16] <mrevell> Instead, it helps track useful meta-data about the information held on these wikis.
[18:16] <mrevell> So, the Ubuntu wiki is where the Ubuntu community stores the meat of its blueprints.
[18:16] <mrevell> There's a lot more to say about blueprints but we don't have time in this session. Join us at 17.00 UTC on Friday to learn more about Blueprint.
[18:16] <mrevell> However, before we leave blueprints, I'd like to point out the small white cross on a red background; it looks like a Swiss flag.
[18:17] <mrevell>  
[18:17] <mrevell> Mentoring
[18:17] <mrevell>  
[18:17] <mrevell> Remember I said earlier that Launchpad helps free software people to work together?
[18:17] <mrevell> Mentoring is a fantastic example of just how Launchpad does it.
[18:17] <mrevell> Let's say I see the blueprint we've been looking at.
[18:17] <mrevell> Imagine I'm a keen but inexperienced developer.
[18:18] <mrevell> I really want to help implement a free Flash player for Ubuntu. I don't know where to start though.
[18:18] <mrevell> However, I see that Alexander Sack is offering to mentor people on this.
[18:18] <mrevell> I click his name and I'm taken to a page listing his blueprints.
[18:18] <mrevell> Another click on the "Overview" tab and I can find out how to contact him.
[18:18] <mrevell> Now, Alexander can help me learn how I can use my skills to help progress this blueprint and to learn the ways of the Ubuntu community.
[18:19] <mrevell> Each offer of mentoring is linked to a particular Launchpad team.
[18:19] <mrevell> This makes it easy to find offers that you're particularly interested in.
[18:19] <mrevell> Ubuntu's Mozilla team, for example:
[18:19] <mrevell> https://edge.launchpad.net/~mozillateam/+mentoring
[18:19] <mrevell> Both bug reports and blueprints can have offers of mentoring.
[18:19] <PriceChild> mrevell, remove the edge. from links ;)
[18:19] <mrevell> PriceChild: Thanks, although they should redirect.
[18:20] <mrevell> :)
[18:20] <mrevell>  
[18:20] <mrevell> Bug Tracker
[18:20] <mrevell>  
[18:20] <mrevell> For many people in the Ubuntu community, reporting and managing bugs accounts for a lot of the time they spend using Launchpad.
[18:20] <mrevell> Let's take a look:
[18:20] <mrevell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[18:20] <mrevell> Reporting bugs using Launchpad's web interface is pretty easy.
[18:20] <mrevell> Simply type in a summary of the bug you've found and Launchpad will search all existing bug reports to check that the bug hasn't already been reported.
[18:21] <mrevell> If you see that the bug has been reported, you can subscribe to it and get email updates when something changes.
[18:21] <mrevell> However, if the bug hasn't been reported, all you need do is describe what you found in more detail.
[18:22] <mrevell> A member of the Ubuntu bugs team will try to confirm that you bug exists and give it an appropriate importance level.
[18:22] <mrevell> Other people can also add comments or upload screenshots and other attachments to help the relevant developers understand the problem.
[18:22] <mrevell> You can also use the bug tracker through its email interface.
[18:23] <mrevell> This makes it particularly easy to automate your use of the bug tracker or may be of interest if you prefer not to use the web interface.
[18:23] <mrevell> You can find out more at: https://help.launchpad.net/BugTrackerEmailInterface
[18:23] <mrevell> There's something else that's particularly special about the way Launchpad deals with bugs.
[18:23] <mrevell>  Briefly: bugs in free software can pop up in almost anywhere!
[18:23] <mrevell> This is partly because free software projects share code and rely on libraries provided by other projects.
[18:24] <mrevell> It's also true that if you find a bug whilst using Ubuntu, that bug may have originated in, for example, code provided by the Firefox or OpenOffice.org projects.
[18:24] <mrevell> Launchpad makes it easy for different communities to work together on the same bug.
[18:24] <mrevell> If you want to know more about this or any other part of the bug tracker there are two sessions you should attend:
[18:24] <mrevell> 19.00 UTC today for "Bug triage"
[18:24] <mrevell> 17.00 UTC Thursday for "Managing bugs with Ubuntu".
[18:25] <mrevell> One cool thing we'll tell you about on Thursday is that you can link bug reports to branches of code that fix that bug.
[18:25] <mrevell>  
[18:25] <mrevell> Code hosting
[18:25] <mrevell>  
[18:25] <mrevell> Launchpad works with the Bazaar version control system. Bazaar is a distributed version control system.
[18:25] <mrevell> That means everyone has their own code repository (called a branch in Bazaar terms).
[18:25] <mrevell> Unlike with CVS or Subversion, you don't need special permissions to start work on someone else's code.
[18:25] <mrevell> Instead, you create your own branch and work on that.
[18:26] <mrevell> It's then easy for the project to merge your changes back into the original branch.
[18:26] <mrevell> And hosting a branch publicly is really easy. All you need is a standard web server and you can also do it through Launchpad.
[18:26] <mrevell> aunchpad makes Bazaar even more useful.
[18:26] <mrevell> s/aunchpad/Launchpad :)
[18:26] <mrevell> One of the problems with distributed version control is that it can be hard to find all the branches associated with your project.
[18:26] <mrevell> Launchpad solves that. It has a browsable code catalogue for each project.
[18:27] <mrevell> Anyone can register their branch to show up in your project's branch list
[18:27] <mrevell> You can see how active each branch is, read the developer's commit messages and create your own working copy of that code, complete with full version control,  at any time.
[18:28] <mrevell> Take a look at the branches for Ubuntu's Update Manager: https://code.launchpad.net/update-manager
[18:28] <mrevell> You can see the main branch but people have also created their own branches.
[18:28] <mrevell> Bazaar makes it really easy for development to take different directions, while Launchpad helps make sure it's all accessible from one place.
[18:28] <mrevell> Now, take a look at the Bazaar project's branches: https://code.launchpad.net/bzr
[18:29] <mrevell> Notice the small bug icons?
[18:29] <mrevell> If you create a branch to fix specific bugs, you can link the branch to the relevant bug reports. The bug icons indicate there's a link.
[18:29] <mrevell> With a link between a bug report and the branch that fixes it, everyone can now easily get hold of a bug's solution.
[18:29] <mrevell> On that page you can also see several branches registered to the Bazaar Developers team. These are team branches.
[18:30] <mrevell> They're hosted centrally, on Launchpad, and only members of the Bazaar Developers team can commit to them.
[18:30] <mrevell> Team branches are ideal for working together on a major line of development. Anyone can still create their own copy, though.
[18:30] <mrevell> Finally, Launchpad can make a continuous import of almost any CVS or Subversion repository hosted on the internet.
[18:30] <mrevell> This means that you can create your own Bazaar branch of the code and your own line of development.
[18:30] <mrevell> With Bazaar's bzr-svn plugin, and the appropriate commit access, you can even commit your code back to Subversion repositories.
[18:31] <mrevell> You can find out more about hosting code with Launchpad in our session here at 18.00 UTC on Thursday.
[18:31] <mrevell> You can find out more about Bazaar here at 19.00 UTC on Friday.
[18:31] <mrevell>  
[18:31] <mrevell> Translations
[18:31] <mrevell>  
[18:31] <mrevell> Launchpad Translations, formerly known as Rosetta, takes the pain out of translating software into different languages.
[18:32] <mrevell> Let's take a quick look at Ubuntu's Translations page:
[18:32] <mrevell> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[18:32] <mrevell> There you get a quick overview of how well Ubuntu 7.10 (Gutsy) has been translated into many different languages.
[18:32] <mrevell> Much of the free software world uses GNU's GetText. Developers put markers in their code to show where a GetText should insert a string of interface text.
[18:33] <mrevell> GetText uses a certain file format to store translated strings.
[18:33] <mrevell> Although it's simple enough to edit this format by hand, the truth is that translators shouldn't have to be coders.
[18:33] <mrevell> Launchpad shields translators from the underlying complexities and gives them a simple web interface.
[18:33] <mrevell> Launchpad currently works with 243 languages and has more than 820,000 strings in its database.
[18:33] <mrevell> Naturally, the same phrases occur in the interfaces of many applications.
[18:34] <mrevell> When someone is translating an application, Launchpad checks its database to see if it has already seen those strings in that language.
[18:34] <mrevell> If it has, it suggests them to the translator.
[18:34] <mrevell> Launchpad also gives teams different ways to ensure they get the right balance between control of translations and encouraging community participation.
[18:34] <ksivaji> lol
[18:34] <mrevell> From fully open - where anyone can translate - to totally restricted, where only pre-appointed translators can make translations and suggestions.
[18:35] <mrevell> Of course, development work usually starts on a new release while the stable release is still in use. Launchpad allows multiple translation efforts to take place concurrently for the same project.
[18:35] <mrevell> So, translation can begin on a new release and continue on the stable release.
[18:35] <mrevell> You can find out more about Launchpad Translations at 16.00 UTC Friday.
[18:35] <mrevell>  
[18:35] <mrevell> Answers
[18:35] <mrevell>  
[18:35] <mrevell> Mailing lists and web forums are traditionally where free software projects answer user support questions. However, it can be difficult to capture that knowledge and make it easily available to the community.
[18:36] <mrevell> Some people are also intimidated by mailing lists or the initiation rituals of some forums :)
[18:36] <mrevell> Launchpad's Answer Tracker is a simple way for people to ask questions about a project.
[18:36] <mrevell> Anyone can offer an answer and the original questioner can highlight the answer they found most useful.
[18:36] <mrevell> Members of a project's community can sign up to be support contacts, meaning they receive an email each time a new question is asked about that project. Support contacts can also identify which questions are FAQ. FAQ - along with a good answer - are then easily searchable and available to anyone.
[18:37] <mrevell> People can ask questions in their own language(s). Support contacts can choose to receive notification of questions asked in their preferred languages.
[18:37] <mrevell> Importantly, all of the questions and answers are easily searchable, meaning that they build into a knowledge-base for the project.
[18:37] <mrevell>  
[18:37] <mrevell> Personal Package Archives
[18:37] <mrevell>  
[18:37] <mrevell> Remember earlier I spoke about Soyuz? Well, this is the part of the Launchpad that helps put Ubuntu together.
[18:38] <mrevell> The part of Soyuz you're most likely to come across is Personal Package Archives.
[18:38] <mrevell> With Personal Package Archives (PPA), you can build and publish binary Ubuntu packages for multiple architectures simply by uploading an Ubuntu source package to Launchpad.
[18:38] <mrevell> If you've got a Launchpad account, you've signed the Ubuntu code of conduct and you've got an GPG key in your Launchpad profile, you can get your own PPA.
[18:39] <mrevell> Your PPA gives you:
[18:39] <mrevell> * An APT repository of up to 1 gigabyte for material licensed in accordance with the PPA Terms of Use.
[18:39] <mrevell> * Binary packages built for x86 and AMD64 architectures against Ubuntu.
[18:39] <mrevell> * A web front-end where Launchpad users can browse and search for your packages.
[18:39] <mrevell> You can find out how to use your PPA at:
[18:39] <mrevell> https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart/
[18:39] <mrevell> and in our session at 15.00 UTC on Friday.
[18:40] <mrevell> This is one of the most exciting areas of development for Launchpad at the moment.
[18:40] <mrevell> PA is in beta at the moment, so you'll need to join the Launchpad Beta Testers team. In fact, I'd recommend that to everyone!
[18:40] <mrevell> s/PA/PPA - cut and paste error
[18:40] <mrevell> Find out how in our guide:
[18:40] <mrevell> https://help.launchpad.net/JoiningLaunchpadBetaTesters
[18:40] <mrevell>  
[18:40] <mrevell> What Next?
[18:40] <mrevell>  
[18:41] <mrevell> There's so much to tell you about Launchpad.
[18:41] <mrevell> I've just about covered the basics.
[18:41] <mrevell> So, please do join us for the other sessions this week and come visit us on the launchpad-users mailing list at:
[18:41] <mrevell> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/launchpad-users
[18:41] <mrevell> Of course, two important sessions to come to, if you're curious about Launchpad, are our Q&A sessions with Launchpad superstar kiko :)
[18:41] <mrevell> They're at:
[18:42] <mrevell> 18.00 UTC tomorrow and
[18:42] <mrevell> 19.00 UTC tomorrow.
[18:42] <mrevell> And of course
[18:42] <mrevell> I'll tackle as many questions as I can now. Let me go read the backlog :)
[18:42] <mrevell> < bullgard4> QUESTION: Very new Launchpad bug reports are invisible to even Launchpad subsribers. What is the reason and what is your policy towards changing this?
[18:43] <mrevell> Hi bullgard4 - I'm afraid I'm not sure what you mean. In what way are they invisible?
[18:43] <popey> private
[18:43] <mrevell> Are we talking about bugs filed against Launchpad?
[18:44] <mrevell> Okay, well, I'll move on for now.
[18:44] <mrevell> < nealmcb> QUESTION: Is there a way to search for a launchpad profile by irc nick, or wiki name?  Without google.....
[18:45] <mrevell> Right now, no. Although we may have a bug report filed about this. If not, I shall file it after this session!
[18:45] <mrevell>  < savvas> QUESTION: When asking for a login, can the user be redirected to launchpad.net? Example, try to login when viewing a bug report, the domain remains bugs.launchpad.net instead of launchpad.net - this causes problems with some password saving applications, such as firefox's password manager, it results to multiple entries for the same website.
[18:47] <mrevell> The simple answer is "No". However, we're always keen to hear how we can improve Launchpad. I don't think I've seen a bug filed about this. Again, I'll be happy to file one after this session, or you can file it yourself at:
[18:47] <mrevell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad
[18:47] <savvas> ah launchpad project
[18:47] <savvas> ok
[18:47] <mrevell>  < greg-g> QUESTION: To have more than one adminstrator for a team, must I create a new group "team-admins" and set that as the group administrator?  Or can I just add to a list of approved members who can adminstrate the team?
[18:49] <mrevell> greg-g: Teams can have many administrators. As the team owner, visit your team's membership list and from there you can upgrade individual members to be admins.
 so.. let me see if I got this straight: the person that creates a blueprint means they must develop the solution/application for that blueprint, or someone else can pick it up?
[18:50] <mrevell> savvas: Anyone can pick the blueprint up and get to work on it. It's up to developers to coordinate with each other as to who does what.
 QUESTION: how are bugs marked as "high" or "low" importance; how do ubuntu members define which is which? by the number of users reporting the bug?
[18:51] <mrevell> That's an ubuntu question really. Join the bug triage session coming up next :)
 QUESTION: What is a good structure for a small code development team like loco-django.  Just use one team for simplicity?  Have an overall team for users and a -dev team to own the code?  When is a -bugs team useful, in practice?  Is there a set of best practices or recipies out there?
[18:53] <mrevell> It's difficult to say without knowing more about what you want to achieve. For example: a separate bugs team to set as a bug contact can be useful if you have some developers who don't want to receive notification of all the bug reports when they're made.
[18:53] <mrevell> nealmcb: What I would say, though, is that this is the sort of thing I'd like to add to the Launchpad Help wiki. So, for now, I'd suggest we have a chat on the launchpad-users list.
 QUESTIONS: is there any easy way to search ALL open bugs in ubuntu, or the marked for mentoring, or is needed to enter to the specific packages. I want it because for starters is easier to browse all the bugs and find out on what we want to help
[18:54] <mrevell> nxvl: You can search all bugs in Ubuntu at:
[18:54] <mrevell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[18:55] <mrevell> QUESTION: We've seen some tantalizing hints of OpenID working in the wild with launchpad as a provider.  What are the plans going forward?  We're looking forward to reducing the need for multiple logins for ubuntu activists.
[18:56] <mrevell> nealmcb: We're keen to help the Ubuntu community in this way. I don't have any exciting information right now, although we have been talking to the Ubuntu Forums teams to see if we can help by providing authentication for the forums. So, if you have specific suggestions or anything, please mail me.
 QUESTION:  Whats that Karma stuff?
[18:57] <mrevell> gautad1: A useful way to show how active someone is in launchpad. Very simply: the more you do in Launchpad, the higher your karma.
 QUESTION: will there ever be something like Launchpad-Lite with similar functionality to Google Code hosting but using Bzr instead?
[18:57] <mrevell>  nansub0111 I'm intrigued to hear more about your ideas for this! Please mail me :)
 QUESTION: We hear there are plans to provide a stable API so other apps can more easily query and parse launchpad data, which would be VERY helpful.  Any updates?  Any hints on how you plan to structure the API?
[18:57] <mrevell> Last question this
[18:58] <mrevell> Please mail me or join Kiko's Q&A sessions to have answers to other questions
[18:59] <mrevell> nealmcb: A stable public API is something that we believe strongly in. I'm not a developer, tbh, do I can't really give much info on the API. However, it is coming and I know we'd be keen to hear your ideas/requirements.
[18:59] <mrevell> Okay, thanks everyone, mail me - matthew.revell@canonical.com!
[18:59] <popey> thanks mrevell
[18:59] <peppych__> thanks mrevell excellent talk
[18:59] <nosrednaekim> thanks!
[18:59] <mrevell> thanks all
[19:03] <popey> heno: you're up :)
[19:04] <heno> popey: thanks
[19:05] <keithcleaveruk> has this session tarted yet?
[19:05] <keithcleaveruk> *started
[19:06] <heno> In the Ubuntu accessibility team we work to make the distro accessible to different groups such as visually or motor impaired
[19:06] <heno> General information here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Accessibility
[19:07] <heno> we have included various tools like screen readers, magnifiers and on-screen-keyboards
[19:07] <heno> to provide access to these groups
[19:07] <heno> much of the work lies in integration with the existing desktop
[19:08] <heno> the screen reader needs to pick up text info from other programs for example
[19:08] <heno> We've also added several access modes to the live CD
[19:09] <heno> so that it can be tested and installed with those tools already running
[19:09] <heno> For Gutsy we saw some improvements based on compiz
[19:10] <heno> such as a more advanced magnifier and colour filters for the colour blind
[19:10] <heno> ... new technologies often bring access regressions as well though
[19:11] <heno> because these use cases are not tested for as much
[19:12] <heno> I'll leave the introduction at that. can I take any questions?
[19:13] <popey> heno: would you like me to paste them in?
[19:13] <heno> popey: yes please
[19:13] <popey> you may also want to join #ubuntu-classroom-chat to follow the conversation
[19:13] <heno> yep, thanks
[19:14] <popey> < harkonen_> QUESTION: do the curent screen readers read individual elements in the GUI, or only things like pop up windows and documents?  and how is navigation done thru GUI if user can't see to use the mouse; is it done with arrow keys, &c?
[19:15] <heno> yes, gui elements written with GTK all contain access information like 'this is a button' and it's label
[19:15] <heno> it should be possible to navigate the whole desktop with the keyboard
[19:16] <heno> and when it isn't that's a bug!
[19:16] <heno> (new programs often introduce such bugs)
[19:16] <harkonen_> does it compare well with JAWS then? (if you've seen JAWS in action?)
[19:16] <heno> the screen readers also have their own hot keys to help you navigate text
[19:17] <heno> I've not had JAWS demonstrated, but I hear that it does
[19:18] <heno> See the Orca project for details
[19:18] <popey> < clem> QUESTION: are these tools and technologies gathered in a single metapackage? And if so, are related desktop themes too?
[19:18] <heno> http://live.gnome.org/Orca
[19:18] <heno> they are generally not in a meta-package but are installed by default
[19:19] <heno> that's because it's difficult for someone who needs that to install anything without the tools
[19:19] <heno> they are simple to activate on any standard desktop
[19:20] <heno> Alt+f2 + orca for example
[19:20] <heno> or boot the Live CD and press F5
[19:20] <heno> some high contrast themes are also included
[19:20] <heno> ok, popey, next
[19:21] <popey> < ian_brasil> QUESTION enabling assistive technologies for running dogtail tests often causes strange errors (often due to GTK labelling errors)..what do you think of hacking linda/lintian so that a package fails checking if this is not done (i.e treating ATI as a first class citizen)
[19:22] <heno> ian_brasil: we are working on exactly that for Hardy
[19:22]  * ian_brasil puts away crystal ball
[19:23] <heno> Lars Wirzenius will be working on automated desktop testing which will be stress testing both the desktop and the whole access framework
[19:23] <ian_brasil> is this framework web based...open source?
[19:23] <heno> some details here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings/OsloSprint
[19:24] <heno> of course!
[19:24] <ian_brasil> thx...thats great
[19:24] <heno> ian_brasil: we'll be using things like linda, lintian, piuparts, dogtail, sccerciser, etc
[19:24] <heno> ok, next?
[19:25] <popey> < Linuturk> QUESTION: As a side effect of your efforts, you have made it easier for users of tablet computers to use all the features of their systems in a more complete manner. Are you aware of any specific group or team that focuses on tablet specific accessibility, or would that be something your team would cover?
[19:25] <Linuturk> For example, I've modified the gdm login manager to bring onBoard up on startup for my tablet.
[19:25] <ian_brasil> autotools?
[19:26]  * warp10 is away: Sono occupato
[19:26] <heno> Linuturk: I don't think we would cover that for the general public, but this is also a big part of making the future mobile platform more accessible
[19:27] <heno> there will be groups working on that
[19:27] <popey> can we keep the chatter to #ubuntu-classroom-chat as much as possible please
[19:27] <heno> popey: next
[19:27] <Linuturk> heno: is there a certain group or team where I should focus my efforts
[19:27] <Linuturk> ?
[19:28] <heno> Linuturk: the eZoom developer Kristian Lyngstøl may be starting a team to work on this
[19:28] <popey> < popey> QUESTION: A member of my local lug claims that Ubuntu breaches local UK laws regarding accessibility, specifically I believe due to the initial boot screen being hard to read  (brown on black). Is there anything being done (other than F6 - which is hard to read) to make the initial boot screen easier to read?
[19:28] <heno> though we are still just brainstorming
[19:29] <heno> popey: I take it you are referring to the Live CD boot screen
[19:30] <popey> yes
[19:30] <heno> we don't have any changes planed STM, and changes to default visible things are always controvertial
[19:31] <heno> but to put it in perspective: that is only an issues on a non-installed (Live) system, which in turn relates to a demo or the install
[19:31] <popey> it's the first thing you see though...
[19:32] <popey> ..or in his case _don't_ see :S
[19:32] <heno> and Ubuntu is the only OS I know of that even attempts to make the installation accessible
[19:33] <heno> it could be better of course. one option is to make a derivative with much more access turned on by default
[19:33] <heno> but we'd rather not go that route because we then lose much critical mass
[19:34] <heno> popey: perhaps a single F-key to give zoom+high contrast would be good
[19:34] <heno> I'm sure most software breaks lots of access rules in most contries
[19:34] <popey> sure, in perspective this is a Fedora user
[19:35] <heno> I wish the rules were tighter and enforced better than they are
[19:35] <popey> ok, thanks. next?
[19:35] <heno> popey: yes, they have been catching up nicely :)
[19:35] <heno> next?
[19:36] <popey> < maks_> QUESTION integration with debian accessiblity support [http://www.debian.org/devel/debian-accessibility/] eg mario lang, who is himself disabled of sight?
[19:36] <heno> We have some collaboration with debian, including Mario, yes
[19:37] <heno> they have traditionally focused more on command line tools ike speakup
[19:37] <heno> while we have introduced desktop tools earlier
[19:37] <heno> we are both borrowing code from each other
[19:38] <heno> It now looks like our on-screen-keyboard, onBorad, may go upstream and merge with GOK, which is great
[19:39] <maks_> merci
[19:40] <heno> next?
[19:40] <popey> < Linuturk> QUESTION: Are there any good text to speech engines out there, for someone who has the capacity to know what they want to say, but are unable to verbalize it?
[19:40] <heno> Linuturk: espeak is lightweight and has support for many languages and festival has a more natural voice but is a bit slower
[19:41] <heno> espeak is on the live CD and installed on all systems by default
[19:41] <heno> you can pipe any text source into it
[19:41] <Linuturk> many thanks :)
[19:41] <heno> popey: next?
[19:42] <popey> thats your lot
[19:42] <heno> ok, great
[19:42] <popey> :)
[19:42] <heno> any more questions anyone?
[19:42] <heno> popey: thanks for helping
[19:42] <popey> < sesamebike> QUESTION: for the lazyman, is it possible to control the GNOME desktop via the voice commands? Like, "Open firefox, browse to url...." etc. maybe with a lerning mode
[19:43] <popey> np
[19:43] <heno> sesamebike: some work is being done on this but it is still very primitive
[19:44] <sesamebike> keep up the good work!
[19:44] <heno> sesamebike: thanks!
[19:44] <heno> see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SpeechRecognition
[19:45] <popey>  < gonzalo> Question: Gutsy has a voice control program (though it's from Gnome IIRC), which seems would be useful in the accessibility field, but so far only recognizes English... Is there any work on it, maybe getting it to work with other languages?
[19:46] <heno> gonzalo: yes, there is some work being done on Spanish, German and Japanese
[19:46] <eolo999> question:what about festival?
[19:47] <heno> perhaps others. See the VoxForge site for details
[19:47] <eolo999> question: what about festival?
[19:47] <heno> eolo999: we provide it as an option for Orca, but espeak is the default
[19:48] <popey>  < mbt> QUESTION:  espeak in gutsy doesn't seem to work properly—No speech comes out, just errors on stderr.  Is there a trick?
[19:48] <eolo999> thx
[19:48] <heno> mbt: please file a bug :) Is that running it with Orca or from the command line?
[19:49] <mbt> From the command line.. I can pipe through lame and then get the output, but not directly.  Will file.  Thanks :)
[19:49] <heno> we made some late changes, reverting portaudio to v18. we might have broken something :(
[19:49] <Linuturk> can confirm problem here heno :)
[19:49] <heno> a11y needs more testing! ...
[19:50] <heno> apparently the screen readers are working, which is the main use case
[19:51] <heno> looks like that's it for today
[19:51] <heno> thanks everyone!
[19:51] <popey> thanks heno
[19:56] <edsiper> :D
[19:56] <vistakiller> :P
[19:56] <fabian> vote for pedro
[19:57] <edsiper> pedro_ is our rockstar
[19:57] <pedro_> haha
[19:57] <popey> pedro_: do you need help moderating?
[19:58] <pedro_> popey, of course, that would be good :-)
[19:58] <pedro_> popey, thanks you :-)
[19:58] <popey> np
[19:58] <popey> off you go :)
[20:00] <pedro_> ok here we go then
[20:00] <pedro_> hello everyone! and welcome to the bug triage session
[20:01] <pedro_> my name is Pedro Villavicencio and i'm here with Brian Murray
[20:01]  * bdmurray waves
[20:01] <pedro_> we both work for Canonical in the QA Team
[20:01] <squish> * w00t QA
[20:01] <pedro_> probably all of you guys are wondering what's "triage"
[20:01] <pedro_> what does that means
[20:02] <pedro_> In a hospital "triage" is the process of separating the very badly wounded from those who are lightly wounded
[20:02] <pedro_> In the Free Software/Ubuntu World, it's the process of separating and identifying bugs that are most severe and most useful for the developers
[20:02] <pedro_> and the bugs become triaged by gathering more information about the bug itself
[20:03] <pedro_> setting their status
[20:03] <pedro_> setting their importance
[20:03] <pedro_> and identifying duplicates of it
[20:03] <pedro_> there's no blood in the process !
[20:04] <pedro_> there's quite few teams in ubuntu that triage bugs
[20:04] <pedro_> the most general of these is the Ubuntu Bug Squad
[20:04] <pedro_> there's info about how to join the Ubuntu Bug Squad here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/GettingInvolved
[20:05] <pedro_> if you need help triaging a bug or want to discuss a bug or best practices, most of members of the bug squad are usually accessible in #ubuntu-bugs here at freenode
[20:05] <pedro_> and of course if you don't like too much chatting you can find us in the ubuntu-bugsquad mailing list
[20:06] <pedro_> which is listed at http://lists.ubuntu.com
[20:06] <pedro_> ok first step for doing some triage is of course having bugs
[20:07] <pedro_> one way that bugs are reported about Ubuntu is by someone going to the Launchpad website and finding https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug
[20:07] <pedro_> if you go to http://bugs.launchpad.net/  you'll see a red button on the right side of the screen
[20:07] <pedro_> with a white label "Report a bug"
[20:08] <pedro_> then you'll be asked for a summary and then for a package and further information regarding the bug
[20:08] <pedro_> the process itself is very free form though and can lead to incomplete reports or ones without a package
[20:09] <pedro_> another way for a bug to be reported to launchpad is by someone using the "help -> report a problem" item
[20:09] <pedro_> in every application of ubuntu
[20:09] <pedro_> this process will collect the information about the version of Ubuntu the reporter is using, the application name and also it's version
[20:10] <pedro_> a report filed that way may be much more complete and they are marked with the apport-bug tag
[20:10] <pedro_> you can find all of them here https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=apport-bug
[20:12] <bdmurray> Now that we know where bug reports come from and how they get reported about Ubuntu we look at how to improve a bug report
[20:13] <bdmurray> An important part of triaging bugs is ensuring that the bug is valid, is associated with a package, is well described and contains enough information for a developer to know it is a valid bug and start working on it.
[20:14] <bdmurray> Detailed information about this can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Improving
[20:14] <bdmurray> Parts of the process include identifying the package the bug is about and the version the reporter noticed it on
[20:14] <bdmurray> As pedro_ sometimes bugs are submitted without a package
[20:15] <bdmurray> A listing of these can be found at http://tinyurl.com/22gw9k .  In this list of bugs you'll notice that the package is just "--"
[20:16] <bdmurray> Looking at the one of the bugs we will see that it affects "Ubuntu".
[20:16] <bdmurray> An easy thing we can do to help the bug along is to assign it to a package.
[20:16] <bdmurray> We have some documentation about determining the package at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage .
[20:17] <bdmurray> We can modify the package a bug is assigned to by clicking on the bug's current status, importance or the downward arrow in the far right side of the package row.
[20:17] <bdmurray> This will reveal a new area of the bug report where you can see the package box is empty.
[20:17] <bdmurray> In that box you can type a package name directly or click on the "Choose ..." hyperlink which will reveal a search for a package dialog.
[20:18] <bdmurray> There can also be bug reports without a specific version of Ubuntu or the package the bug is about.
[20:18] <bdmurray> As there are multiple versions of Ubuntu currently out, Dapper, Edgy, Feisty and Gutsy, finding out the affected release improves the bug report too.
[20:19] <bdmurray> Also determining the version of the package the bug was discovered with helps to improve the report.
[20:19] <bdmurray> Two ways to find out the package version on an installed system are using 'dpkg -l $pkgname' in a terminal and by using Synaptic to search for the package name and looking in the installed version column.
[20:19] <bdmurray> Another critical part of improving a bug report is ensuring that there are detailed steps to reproduce the bug.
[20:20] <bdmurray> This helps other triagers and developers recreate the bug and study it more.
[20:20] <bdmurray> The steps should be broken down individually and as detailed as possible, it is better to have too much information rather than not enough.
[20:20] <bdmurray> I've triaged a fair bit of bugs and one time I saw a reporter add a screencap of their bug as an attachment.
[20:21] <bdmurray> That bug was quite easy for me to recreate!
[20:22] <bdmurray> We can take a couple of questions at this point.  Are there any questions about what we have covered so far?
[20:22] <popey> yes
[20:22] <popey>  < ubuntu_demon> QUESTION: Do you have to be a member of ubuntu-bugsquad to triage bugs ?
[20:23] <bdmurray> No, you don't have to be a member of the team to triage bugs.  Anyone can help in the triaging process!
[20:23] <squish> How do you deal with security bugs that are hazardous to expose to the public intially?
[20:24] <Amaranth> squish: #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[20:24] <popey> squish: please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[20:24] <popey> < jkimball4> QUESTION: Are bugs related to a version other than the current stable pointless to triage?
[20:24] <bdmurray> It is possible to report a bug as Private where the visibility of the bug then becomes limited.
[20:25] <bdmurray> No, it is possible that the bug still exists in the latest release so getting the steps to recreate the bug and trying to recreate the bug in the latest release is still valuable.
[20:25] <bdmurray> Okay, moving on now.
[20:25] <bdmurray> Well have some time for more questions at the end.
[20:25] <popey> just say when you want more questions
[20:26] <bdmurray> Every bug has a "Status" and there are currently 9 of these available in Launchpad.
[20:27] <bdmurray> they include New, Incomplete, Invalid, Confirmed, Triaged, In Progress, Won't Fix, Fix Committed, and Fix Released. We will just cover their meaning briefly.
[20:27] <bdmurray> When a bug is first reported the status of the bug is New meaning that the bug report has not been acted upon. These are good candidates for triaging.
[20:27] <bdmurray> A bug report that has a status of Incomplete means that the bug report is missing information. Missing information can include the version of Ubuntu or the version of the package, steps to reproduce the bug report.
[20:28] <bdmurray> A Confirmed bug report is one that someone, other than the original reporter, has been able to reproduce or one that has the minimum debugging information for that package available.
[20:28] <bdmurray> A Triaged bug is one that should have enough information for a developer to start working on a fix for the bug. This status can only be set my a member of the ubuntu-bugcontrol, formerly the ubuntu-qa, team.
[20:28] <bdmurray> An In Progress bug is one that a developer is working on fixing the bug.
[20:29] <bdmurray> An Invalid bug report is one that was determined not to be a bug or one that did not have enough information whether or not it was a bug.
[20:29] <bdmurray> More information about the other statuses can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status
[20:30] <bdmurray> The statuses most commonly set by members of the Bug Squad are Incomplete, Confirmed and Invalid.
[20:30] <bdmurray> You would use the Incomplete status when gathering more information and asking the reporter a question.
[20:30] <bdmurray> Confirmed after you have everything needed.
[20:31] <bdmurray> The status of the bug report can be modified by clicking on the bug's current status at the top of the bug report.
[20:32] <bdmurray> This will reveal places for you to assign the bug to a package, mentioned previously, and set the status of the bug report.
[20:32] <bdmurray> You can also add a comment to the bug report which will show up in the bug's web page and be e-mailed to subscribers of the bug.
[20:32] <bdmurray> So to triage a bug we would add a comment asking for more information and set the bug to Incomplete.
[20:33] <pedro_> great, so what if you're triaging a crash report
[20:34] <pedro_> and the trace isn't really good of
[20:34] <pedro_> and if there's some user that is having problems with his sound card
[20:34] <pedro_> for that kind of issues we have made some debugging information for specific packages and problems available at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
[20:35] <pedro_> the debugging pages contain questions that you will need to ask to the reporter
[20:35] <pedro_> in order to make the bug more complete
[20:35] <pedro_> One helpful thing to do when asking questions are making each question separate line so they are not missed
[20:36] <pedro_> Since we want to avoid to have more than one triager working on the same bug, we don't want to duplicate the job, do we?
[20:37] <pedro_> it's a good idea to assign the bug to yourself, this is done by selecting the "Me" option in the "Assigned to" area in the report
[20:37] <pedro_> and please do so :-)
[20:38] <pedro_> once you have the bug assigned, you'll be receiving e-mails with any activity in the report
[20:38] <pedro_> for example: another bug was marked as a duplicate
[20:38] <pedro_> the reporter just answered your questions
[20:38] <pedro_> another person can confirm the bug, etc, etc
[20:39] <pedro_> if you want to see the list of bugs that are assigned to you, launchpad has a nice page located at https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+assignedbugs
[20:39] <pedro_> of course you should replace the "me" by your launchpad username :-P
[20:39] <pedro_> After your job as a triager is done, which basically means that the bug has enough information and you already moved the status to confirmed
[20:40] <pedro_> you should unassign yourself by selecting "Nobody" in the "Assigned to" area
[20:41] <pedro_> and if you want to continue receiving emails about the bug activity you might want to subscribe to the report by activating the "E-mail me about changes to this bug report" option at the bug page and then just click on Save Changes
[20:41] <pedro_> ok, can we take some questions?
[20:43] <pedro_> popey, may you fire us with questions? :-)
[20:43] <popey> sure
[20:43] <popey> < mbt> QUESTION:  Are there published standards for determining the severity of a bug as part of the triage process?
[20:44] <pedro_> mbt, yes we have a wiki page about that and you can read it here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance
[20:44] <pedro_> there's also one explaining the status at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status
[20:45] <pedro_> ok, next
[20:45] <popey> < squish> How do you deal with security bugs that are hazardous to expose to the public intially?
[20:45] <bdmurray> The importance of a bug can be set by a member of the ubuntu-bugcontrol team.  In the event that you are not a member of the team feel free to bring the bug up on the mailing list or in #ubuntu-bugs.
[20:45] <pedro_> popey, wasn't that already answered? :-P
[20:46] <nxvl> yes it was
[20:46] <popey> sorry, re-asked
[20:46] <popey> < public_void> QUESTION: Can people submit bug fixes with reports? Does this make the process easier?
[20:46] <pedro_> public_void, of course they can! that's the perfect scenario!
[20:46] <bdmurray> Even linking to a patch upstream is very helpful.
[20:47] <pedro_> yep, ok, next
[20:47] <popey> < sourcercito> QUESTION: when we're done recolecting information about a bug, how do we now to whom assign the bug to be take care of.
[20:48] <bdmurray> For the most part bugs should only be assigned to people when they are working on them.
[20:49] <bdmurray> Each package has subscribers to it and receive information about the bug reports.
[20:49] <bdmurray> er, and they
[20:49] <bdmurray> Does that answer your question sourcercito?
[20:50] <sourcercito> bdmurray, yes, thanks
[20:50] <popey> < ttread> QUESTION: For bugs in an upstream package, is it best to report in launchpad, in the upstream project's bugracker, or both?
[20:50] <pedro_> ttread,  that's the greatest thing about launchpad
[20:51] <pedro_> if you find a bug in an upstream package you can fill the bug in the upstream tracker
[20:51] <pedro_> and then linking the bug with launchpad
[20:51] <pedro_> so if the bug upstream get fixed you'll be notified about that
[20:51] <pedro_> the same if the bug upstream needs more info
[20:52] <pedro_> so yeah, you can do both if you want to :-)
[20:52] <popey> < UKHack> <QUESTION> I'm relatively short of time, but I'd like to help out with the triage effort - what would you advise me to do to make the most of my time?
[20:53] <bdmurray> As mentioned previously some bugs come into without a package and assigning them to a package doesn't require much commitment / time.
[20:54] <bdmurray> Also looking at the apport-bug tagged bugs may make the most of your time as they will already have a lot of information in them.
[20:54] <bdmurray> I think that is all we have time for here, however pedro_ and I will be in ubuntu-bugs for a while and happy to take questions there
[20:55] <popey> theres 5 mins and 3 questions left
[20:56] <bdmurray> popey: okay let's give a try then and hope BenC doesn't get mad
[20:56]  * BenC is fine :)
[20:56] <popey> < BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: In the wiki article, the bug severity levels mention small or large "portions" of users as criteria. What percentages would be considered small or large?
[20:57] <bdmurray> Determing the scope of a bug and the number of affected users can be tricky.
[20:57] <bdmurray> Some things to consider are "Is the application installed by default?"
[20:58] <bdmurray> "Is the bug in a common operation of the application?"
[20:59] <bdmurray> If it is hardware related "How prevalent is the hardware?"
[20:59] <popey> ok, we're about out of time
[20:59] <bdmurray> But these are estimates and it is largely a judgement call.
[21:00] <popey> thanks to bdmurray and pedro_ !
[21:00] <pedro_> thanks all for the attention ! :-)
[21:00] <bdmurray> Thanks for having us.  If you any furhter questions join us #ubuntu-bugs or use the mailing list!
[21:00] <ubuntu_demon> thanks :)
[21:00] <popey> cool
[21:00] <nxvl> thanks
[21:00] <squish> *applause
[21:01] <nxvl> u resolv many doubts i had
[21:01] <nxvl> :D
[21:01] <BenC> Hello, and thank you for having me. I'm Ben Collins, the Kernel Team Lead, hired by Canonical to work on Ubuntu.
[21:02] <BenC> The Kernel Team handles the Linux Kernel, third-party modules, and other programs related to the kernel (such as initramfs-tools, udev, etc).
[21:03] <BenC> Interacting with the kernel team can be done in many ways. The most direct is via IRC on #ubuntu-kernel. We also have a mailing list: kernel-team@lists.ubuntu.com.
[21:03] <zul> win 13
[21:03] <BenC> Most of our discussions happen on the mailing list (patches, bug discussions, etc.), with work occurring in the git repo at http://kernel.ubuntu.com/
[21:04] <BenC> More information about the kernel team can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam
[21:05] <BenC> Ok, open to questions now :)
[21:06] <popey>  < mbt> QUESTION:  When troubleshooting the kernel, or drivers within it, upstream devs *insist* on using a vanilla kernel.  What is the best, Ubuntu/Canonical-sanctioned way to do this for the purpose of reproducing "clean" reports for upstream, or should all those go through LP so that the kernel team can work with the upstream devs?
[21:06] <BenC> One of the major things we did in gutsy kernel was to trim way down on our patches to the stick kernel
[21:07] <BenC> *stock
[21:07] <BenC> One thing that has been suggested, and may be discussed for hardy, is a pristine kernel for people to reproduce bugs on, to better work with upstream on fixing it
[21:08] <BenC> This would probably be offered through launchpad via a persona-package-archive
[21:08] <popey> < nxvl> QUESTION: to help the kernel team is needed to know kernel development?
[21:09] <BenC> Well, to help debug the problems, a good understanding is needed at the very least.
[21:09] <BenC> But where we need the most help is bug triaging, which only requires a little knowledge on classifying the bugs and gaining all the needed info for the devs to better handle it
[21:10] <popey> < ubuntu_demon> QUESTION : Does Ubuntu do ASLR (Address space layout randomization) ? If not will something like this be added in the future ? What kind of memory protection techniques does Ubuntu use ? What kind of memory protection techniques will Ubuntu have in the future ?
[21:11] <BenC> ASLR was planned, but because of compatibility issues, we could not enable it
[21:12] <BenC> For hardy, we plan to look at stack protection for x86_64 at least, and ASLR being enabled
[21:13] <BenC> These things are being driven mostly by the security and server teams (but obviously benefit desktop as well)
[21:13] <popey> < evarlast> QUESTION: what is the kernel team doing to ensure that the kernel performs well on computationally intese systems?  See http://scalability.org/?p=418
[21:13] <BenC> Short answer to that is "nothing" :)
[21:14] <BenC> Our main focus has been the areas that the majority of our users want, which so far has been desktop/laptop, and on the server (generic servers)
[21:14] <BenC> If community efforts can drive interest in this area, then it's something we will work with more
[21:15] <popey> < ikonia> Quesstion: What is the decision process for backport's of current kernel release to current ubuntu packaged kernel
[21:15] <BenC> I'm not exactly sure of the question, but I suspect you mean something like 2.6.23 on gutsy
[21:16] <BenC> and the decision process is, we have too much work to get hardy done, there's no way we can spend our time on a new kernel for gutsy
[21:16] <BenC> Since it's only 6 months till the next release, it doesn't make much sense
[21:16] <BenC> We have considered such things for LTS releases, but so far have decided against it due to the incompatibilities with old userspace and new kernels
[21:17] <ikonia> BenC: apologies, the question was badley worded. I was aiming to ask "what is the driver for backporting fixes/improvments from the current release kernel to the current ubuntu packaged kernel - keeping in mind the effort involved. Is is straight effort V Benifits or is it driven by demand. This is more relvenent on LTS releases
[21:17] <BenC> For the most part, we only backport security fixes, and major fixes (which hopefully don't exist at release time :)
[21:18] <ikonia> thank you
[21:18] <popey> < BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: How do you choose what modules are loaded with the default kernel that's included with the CDs, and what should be left for installation by the user?
[21:18] <BenC> We don't choose
[21:19] <BenC> The kernel decides based on what hardware it finds
[21:19] <BenC> if you have the device and we have the driver, the driver gets loaded (except in cases like restricted modules, such as nvidia)
[21:19] <BenC> Or maybe you are asking about what modules we include with the CD
[21:20] <BonesolTeraDyne> Yes, how do you determine what modules come with the CD
[21:20] <BenC> BonesolTeraDyne: is this a question of what is loaded (as in modprobe) or what we make available (as in packaging)?
[21:20] <BenC> Ok
[21:20] <BenC> The CD just includes all the modules that we compile in the kernel, and the third-party modules (linux-ubuntu-modules, linux-restricted-modules)
[21:21] <BenC> Our aim is to include as many drivers as possible, where it makes sense
[21:21] <popey> < evarlast> QUESTION: Will KExec ever be an option so that we can reboot without POST?
[21:22] <BonesolTeraDyne> thank you
[21:22] <BenC> I'm pretty sure the kexec package includes an init script to handle that already
[21:22] <BenC> Whether it will be enabled by default or not is unknown
[21:23] <BenC> some drivers do not de-initialize hardware properly, and a kexec to a new kernel can fail easily in these cases
[21:23] <popey> < PwrKroll> QUESTION: Is there anything you feel the Kernel is missing so far, and if so, what, and future plans?
[21:24] <BenC> The only thing that quickly comes to mind is a stable 802.11 API :)
[21:24] <BenC> upstream wireless-dev is handling that, we are helping as much as possible
[21:25] <popey> < Linuturk> QUESTION: What is currently in development to improve batterlife on mobile computers (ie laptops, tablets)?
[21:25] <PwrKroll> thank you
[21:25] <Linuturk> battery life*
[21:25] <BenC> Intel is doing a lot of work in this area, especially with the powertop utility
[21:26] <Linuturk> I've noticed that the powertop changes it suggests do not stick.
[21:26] <BenC> Integrating a lot of the work that came from this project, and starting a baseline for improvement during hardy is going to be discussed at UDS
[21:27] <BenC> One of the kernel team developers (amitk) will be in charge of this effort
[21:27] <popey> < ikonia> Question: What is the current development model with regard to kernel headers, more so now the the distro wide sanitisezed headers (LLC) project is in effect Dead
[21:28] <BenC> That project is dead because the stock kernel now has a headers target that installs sanitized headers direct from the source tree
[21:28] <BenC> we've been using this to create the linux-libc-dev package since feisty
[21:28] <ikonia> that was teh response I was looking for, thank you
[21:28] <popey> combining two questions:-
[21:28] <popey> < ikonia> Question: How do you feel the ubuntu packaged kernels has progressed with the current LIBATA branch - has UUID worked out as expected
[21:28] <popey> < ikonia> Question: What as the driver to adopt UUID so early when in most peoples mind it was so early from being the norm
[21:29] <BenC> libata has turned out to be a real pain, but at the same time a real win for us overall
[21:29] <BenC> most new chipsets are being supported in libata, and not in ide (for pata)
[21:29] <alexlafreniere> hi
[21:29] <alexlafreniere> whats goin on
[21:29] <popey> alexlafreniere: chat is in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[21:30] <popey> < zul> QUESTION: what is required for a patch from launchpad to be accepted?
[21:30] <alexlafreniere> sorry
[21:30] <BenC> The UUID change was in preparation for this change
[21:30] <popey> sorry BenC
[21:30] <ikonia> BenC: that makes sense. Sensible response, thank you
[21:30] <BenC> popey: np
[21:30] <popey> zuls question is next
[21:31] <BenC> zul: Basically, patches need to be approved by two kernel devs
[21:31] <BenC> if the patch is marked as such in lp, we'll see it and review it (as opposed to just being an attachment)
[21:32] <popey> < ikonia> What is the selection point for a kernel for a new release, is it just "current" at start time of the project and then it sticks, or is there normally a wait for X feature
[21:32] <BenC> The upstream kernel is on roughly a 3 month release cycle
[21:33] <BenC> Since dapper, we've tried to decide on the kernel version that would release no later than 3 months before our planned release
[21:33] <BenC> So for Hardy, that should be 2.6.24, but we will evaluate that decision at UDS to see what features are planned for 2.6.24, to make sure we don't take anything that may be very unstable
[21:34] <popey> < ttread> QUESTION: Since on an installed system the hardware doesn't change often, could the modprobe at bootup be optimized or eliminated to reduce bootup time?
[21:34] <BenC> Well, it can't be eliminated :)
[21:34] <BenC> There are probably things that could be done to speed up the process (perhaps pre-load modules instead of waiting for device detection)
[21:35] <BenC> Other things that come to mind are pre-linking, like what OSX does
[21:35] <BenC> charting the time there could be good for seeing if there really is anything to gain
[21:36] <popey> < ikonia> Question: How do you deal with ubuntu specific patches and the effects on the kernel at development packaging time. Gcc and binutils is a famous issues with Fedora based distro's, do you aim for vanilla compatability and work towards that, or do you aim towards version compatability and patch towards that
[21:36] <BenC> The good thing about the toolchain is we can use which ever version we want...doesn't have to match the userspace version
[21:37] <BenC> we haven't had a reason to do this, since we try to keep things in sync, but we're not locked down either
[21:38] <BenC> As for our aim, since inter-distro binary-compatibility for the kernel is non-existent anywhere, we don't aim for that sort of compatibility
[21:38] <ikonia> thank you
[21:38] <popey> < ubuntu_demon> QUESTION: What kind of kernel related security stuff can we look forward to (other than the already mentioned ASLR and stack protection for x86_64) ?
[21:39] <BenC> There's AppArmor, which just released with gutsy
[21:39] <BenC> I think we plan to extend support for that in Hardy
[21:39] <BenC> I realize that's more userspace protection, but it's provided by the kernel :)
[21:40] <BenC> protecting userspace is likely the best line of defense, IMO, since it's the main entry point to root access
[21:40] <BenC> but we're always open to suggestions
[21:40] <popey> < ubuntu_demon> QUESTION: How mature is the iwlwifi driver ? When (which Ubuntu release) do you think it will be mature enough to start recommending average users to buy ipw4965 ?
[21:41] <BenC> Uh, gutsy :)
[21:41] <BenC> iwl4965 (from the iwlwifi driver) is already there
[21:41] <BenC> In fact, I'm using it right now
[21:41] <makiolo> test tak ...
[21:42] <popey> < nixternal> QUESTION: does Ben's servers really set out in a barn, secured by electrical wire? :p
[21:42] <makiolo> sorry
[21:42] <Tesla-HETy> BenC: it does not answers the question really
[21:42] <popey> chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[21:42] <BenC> Tesla-HETy: basically it does, because I would not be using it if it wasn't stable :)
[21:43] <Tesla-HETy> ok. ty
[21:43] <BenC> nixternal: Yes, there is over $100k USD worth of server equipment in my barn, protected by cows and electrical fence :)
[21:43] <nixternal> haha, good times!
[21:44] <popey> < ubuntu_demon> QUESTION : the kernel can't reach C3 and C4 (powertop doesn't show C3 and C4). Will this be fixed for Hardy ?  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.22/+bug/129200
[21:44] <BenC> Answering that question would require more time than we have here...my first impression would be that the hw doesn't support it.
[21:45] <popey> < ikonia> Question: While I appriciate the hassle and pain of supporting and building multiple kernel versions for the same release (I'm not talking archs) is there not a need starting to arise for more custom kernels such as the LL kernel required for ubuntu studio
[21:46] <BenC> There is a need, and we support those needs (realtime, xen, lpia, ...)
[21:46] <ikonia> fair enough
[21:46] <BenC> However, supporting multiple kernel flavours for the main platform (e.g. multiple desktop and server kernels) is not something we want to get in to
[21:47] <BenC> e.g., we used to have 386, 686, 686-smp, k7, k7-smp
[21:47] <BenC> we wont do that again
[21:47] <popey> < ikonia> Question: with ubuntus populatirty in my opinion being driven by desktop effects / laptop users as a general rule, do you feel that advancment features of the kernel are not being exploited enough/quick enough due to focus appearing to be aimed at usability
[21:47] <ikonia> BenC: thats good to hear
[21:48] <ubuntu_demon> BenC : regarding C3/C4 my hardware does support it (intel Core Duo T2500). The bug is confirmed. I don't know what hardware is affected. I understand that you don't have time to go into it further right now.
[21:48] <BenC> Yes, I did used to worry about that...but we've been making a huge investment recently in building a server team, and taking advantage of some of the more advanced features related to that target
[21:49] <popey> < aditya> QUESTION: Is there any way to load per user modules into the kernel (eg. user 'abc' loads fuse module to be accessible only by him) Or is some work being done on this?
[21:49] <ikonia> BenC: music to my ears, thank you
[21:49] <BenC> Nope, no such support exists
[21:50] <aditya> BenC: any work being done in this direction?
[21:50] <BenC> not that I'm aware of
[21:50] <aditya> ok. ty
[21:50] <popey> < ikonia> Question: What is your toolchain used for building initial ubuntu releases, more so around the kernel, is it a specific sanitised tool chain, or a toolchain that is exactly the same as the release the user would get
[21:51] <BenC> If you check the release schedule, the first step is always a new toolchain, and usually that toolchain persists throughout the entire development cycle
[21:51] <ikonia> I've seen the toolchain at early stage, nice to know its followed though
[21:52] <BenC> We have a tool chain person that handles that, and one of the initial steps is to make sure that the base system compiles with it (and this includes a new kernel)
[21:52] <popey> < Yasumoto> QUESTION: this may be a bit basic, but I've been starting to work on compiling a kernel. do you guys recommend using an ubuntu-specific one, or can I just use a vanilla kernel?
[21:53] <BenC> you can use whatever you like, we don't support self-compiled kernels any way :)
[21:53] <BenC> Which source tree you use depends greatly on why you are going through the pain of compiling it yourself
[21:53] <popey> < ikonia> Question: With more and more drive been given to userspace are you trying to focus any ubuntu features tools at really utilising this new found userspace power, an obvious example is your inclusion of fuse
[21:54] <Yasumoto> haha, alright, fair enough. (mainly just to learn how it works together) thanks
[21:54] <BenC> The kernel team really doesn't focus on this, but the rest of the distro team does, and they are driven by blueprints on launchpad
[21:54] <popey> < evarlast> QUESTION: any change of SELinux becoming default or moving more to the forefront like in Fedora?
[21:55] <BenC> As far as I can tell, AppArmor is going to be preferred for this
[21:55] <BenC> There are some documents on the wiki explaining apparmor-vs-selinux
[21:56] <popey> < ikonia> Question: Are you gonverned by any restrictions, such as physical space/size for the kernel at package sizing, and does this effect any features, as not all functions are modular
[21:56] <BenC> The kernel itself is well under the size restrictions, which are architecture dependent
[21:57] <ikonia> so its arch depentant - not self imposed
[21:57] <BenC> generally features are not restricted by this size
[21:57] <popey> < ikonia> Question: would it be fair to say that the kernel team was a reasonable portion of the decision to drop some external archs such as PPC
[21:57] <ikonia> thanks
[21:57] <popey> < ikonia> Question: follow on - how does the partnership with Sun for Sparc effect the progress of the x86/x86_64 development progress within ubuntu
[21:58] <BenC> No, kernel had nothing to do with dropping PPC
[21:58] <popey> We're pretty much out of time now..
[21:59] <BenC> Yeah, sorry, last question would be pretty lengthy too :)
[21:59] <ikonia> thats fair enough
[21:59] <popey> fantastic session, well done BenC !
[21:59] <BenC> Thanks for having me
[21:59] <ubuntu_demon> thanks :)
[21:59] <Tesla-HETy> BenC: thanks
[22:00] <BonesolTeraDyne> Thanks
[22:00] <LjL-Temp> thanks
[22:00] <ikonia> BenC: enjoyed, thanks
[22:00] <aditya> Thank you
[22:00] <alexlafreniere> Thanks for your time BenC!
[22:00]  * atoponce pokes his head in
[22:01] <atoponce> are we ready to begin discussion on loco teams?
[22:01] <erosa> thx BenC and popey
[22:01] <nxvl> atoponce: yes
[22:01] <nxvl> :D
[22:01] <atoponce> sweet! :) let's get started then
[22:02] <atoponce> first, i need to mention that i am behind somewhat of a laggy connection
[22:02] <atoponce> so, i apologize in advance if there is some lag between my lecture points
[22:03] <atoponce> well, let's begin with "what is this loco team thing anyway?"
[22:03] <atoponce> the term "LoCo" stands for "local community"
[22:03] <atoponce> thi thing that separates Ubuntu from any other distro is the community
[22:04] <atoponce> take a look at the forums, for example.  how many hundreds of thousands of users have posted how many millions of posts?
[22:04] <atoponce> when you ask anyone what makes ubuntu ubuntu, it's the community
[22:04] <atoponce> so, it makes sense that we get together, in person, or online, to build that community
[22:05] <atoponce> so, to help these loco teams get headed in the right direction, we have very exhastive docs
[22:06] <atoponce> i'll be referring mainly to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeams
[22:06] <atoponce> as well as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamKnowledgeBase and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoFAQ
[22:07] <atoponce> so, it's important to note first that a LoCo is a SIG (special interest group), and not a LUG (Linux Users Group)
[22:07] <atoponce> Ubuntu LoCo teams are for building Ubuntu in the community, not for spreading Linux in general
[22:08] <atoponce> although we do welcome users from all distros to participate, we want to advocate Ubuntu in all our events and meetings
[22:08] <atoponce> So, what is a LoCo specifically?
[22:08] <atoponce> a LoCo team is a collection of members all running or interested in ubuntu looking to meet together
[22:09] <atoponce> our visions and goals are generally advocating its use to arganizations, schools and corporations
[22:10] <atoponce> rather than just improving our personl skill sets, although it's definitely a bonus. :)
[22:10] <atoponce> as such, we meet either in person, or online to discuss how we can get ubuntu spread throughout our area
[22:11] <atoponce> loco teams are split out geographically, by country in most cases, or by state in the US
[22:11] <atoponce> loco teams are usually free to attend / join in terms of monetary cost
[22:11] <atoponce> some teams may ask for financial donations or contributions to help print posters, cds, etc
[22:12] <atoponce> it's really up to each team
[22:12] <atoponce> and, specific execution of the loco team can vary greatly between teams
[22:12] <atoponce> translations, support, advocation, meeting, education, etc
[22:13] <atoponce> ok. so, know that we know a bit about a loco team, why create/join one?
[22:13] <atoponce> well, for the most part, there are ubuntu users with similar interests that want to meet together and get things going
[22:14] <atoponce> we enjoy advocation and want to see the earth covered with ubuntu :)
[22:14] <atoponce> as such, friendships are built, social networks created, and a great sense of community is established
[22:14] <atoponce> loco teams are a *ton* of fun
[22:15] <atoponce> of course, as mentioned in -chat, we need to fix bug #1 to dethrone microsoft
[22:15] <atoponce> ok. so, how to join a team?
[22:15] <atoponce> well, because teams are based on geographic location, there is a pretty exhaustive list of teams already in existence
[22:16] <atoponce> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList is the authoritative list on what teams are in existence
[22:16] <atoponce> if your team is not listed there, make sure to add it
[22:16] <atoponce> joining a team generally means finding the team's IRC channel and joining online
[22:17] <atoponce> of coures, you can join the mailing list or launchpad team page as well
[22:17] <atoponce> don't forget about adding yourself to the team wiki if one exists
[22:17] <atoponce> once joined, the fun begins
[22:18] <atoponce> generally, you'll be asked to contribute to the team in some way, magnifying your talents
[22:18] <atoponce> sitting idle on a team by not helping to build the team or to contribute is usually discouraged in some teams, and you could be removed if you're not helping to build the team
[22:19] <atoponce> so, get those blank cds ready for some burning. :)
[22:19] <atoponce> of course, there are many ways to contribute
[22:19] <atoponce> forums posts, mailing lists, irc, wiki additions, booths, cds, posters, art, you name it
[22:20] <atoponce> anything to get the team strong and firm-footed in the community
[22:20] <atoponce> what if there isn't a team in your area? then what?
[22:20] <atoponce> well, that's when you get to starting a team
[22:20] <atoponce> but, before i get to that, let me answer a couple questions
[22:21] <atoponce> 15:17 < popey> QUESTION: Some people prefer IRC, others like Mailing Lists, others forums, and yet others  prefer social networking. Is there a "right" way to communicate within a LoCo? How do you  ensure everyone is up to speed given all these different mediums of communication?
[22:21] <popey> here we go
[22:22] <atoponce> i would say that there isn't a "right way" to communicate. what *is* important, is *to* communicate, regardless of the medium
[22:22] <atoponce> it may vary from team to team, but when communication is open, teams grow
[22:22] <atoponce> 15:19 < popey> QUESTION: Most LoCos have people who "do stuff" and people who are "less active", "idlers",  should you be pushing the idelrs or let them idle?
[22:23] <atoponce> this also varies from team to team. some teams want everyone active, some don't mind the idling
[22:24] <atoponce> it's important to realize that the goal is to spread ubuntu through advocacy from team members
[22:24] <atoponce> but, i would encourage contributions rather than removing them from the team
[22:24] <popey> I'm not suggesting removal
[22:24] <atoponce> ok. let's pick up on starting a loco team
[22:24] <popey> :)
[22:25] <atoponce> popey: understood. i would say to "feel it out" with your team to see what should be most appropriate
[22:26] <atoponce> ok. so, when starting a tem, it's *extremely* important to understand that the design is *NOT* to replace the local LUG
[22:26] <atoponce> rather, to work with it
[22:27] <blahblahx> hey
[22:28] <popey> blahblahx: questions/comments in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[22:28] <blahblahx> what sessions are going on now?
[22:29] <atoponce> think of it as a python group that wants to spread the language in a general programming group
[22:29] <popey> blahblahx: questions/comments in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[22:29] <atoponce> so, to start a loco, check the authoritative list that i posted earlier to see if a team exists in your area
[22:30] <atoponce> if there is a team, then you should work with the existing loco rather than start a new one
[22:30] <atoponce> even if you think that the existing loco team isn't performing well, or if you can do better
[22:31] <atoponce> if you are sure there isn't a team in your area, then there are a few things that you need to get into place first before starting
[22:31] <atoponce> you need a mailing list, irc channel, and wiki page as the minimums
[22:31] <atoponce> a launchpad page may help with membership counts
[22:31] <atoponce> least important would be a team page
[22:32] <atoponce> once those main resources are in place, then the #1 focus sholud be building members to advocate ubuntu in your community.
[22:32] <atoponce> dealing with a cms or team logos should not be the focus of the team
[22:32] <atoponce> so. questions here
[22:32] <popey> < Tesla-HETy> QUESTION: what long term goal of LoCo team should be?
[22:33] <atoponce> Tesla-HETy: the long term goal af a loco should be to build ubuntu in your area. whether that means getting schools on edubuntu, corporations on ubuntu-server, or families using ubuntu-desktop
[22:33] <atoponce> loco teams are all about advocation
[22:33] <atoponce> next
[22:33] <popey> < gaurav_> QUESTION: Does a LoCo consist of any hierarchal membership levels? Is everyone equal as the next person? If someone is being idle or there is a problem, is it brought up as a group or does a single person take a stand to identify it?
[22:34] <atoponce> gaurav_: that is up to the team
[22:34] <atoponce> some teams like delegating out positions and priorities. some it's one leader with nothing but members
[22:35] <atoponce> it would all depend, i guess, on what responsibilities needed to be filled and how thet team wolud want to be run internally
[22:35] <popey> < Wybiral> QUESTION: When burning CDs isn't a good option, what would you suggest is the best way to get involved?
[22:35] <atoponce> Wybiral: there are several ways. forums posts, wiki editing, blogging, just general help
[22:36] <atoponce> of course, getting out in your city/state/country, and vocal advocacy is also a big plus. even posters or buttons
[22:36] <atoponce> identify your talents, and magnify them in the community
[22:36] <popey> < desertc> QUESTION: What relationship do you see between LoCo teams and sub-LoCo-teams, such as US states or US cities?  How do you see these smaller teams working together and collaborating with the larger teams?
[22:37] <atoponce> desertc: very good question. if you don't mind, i'm going to defer it. i'll be covering that here in the next topic. :)
[22:37] <atoponce> i think i'm cought up on the question queue, so let's continue
[22:37] <atoponce> "running or participating in a LoCo team"
[22:38] <atoponce> this is the area that takes all the time as a member
[22:38] <atoponce> running a team effectively takes a great deal of work, and contributions for all team members, not just the team leader and a couple of the strong ones
[22:39] <atoponce> it consists of instal lfests, local community work, advocation, etc.
[22:39] <atoponce> it consists of rolling up the sleeves, and getting dirty, so to speak
[22:39] <atoponce> when running a team, however, the team might get fairly large, spread over a massive area
[22:40] <atoponce> that's ok. when a team gets to that size, it can split down into smaller teams, falling under the larger umbrella
[22:40] <atoponce> such as a city team that coexists under the state/country team
[22:41] <atoponce> this is perfectly ok, as long as the city team, and the state/country team can continue working getting the community involved
[22:41] <atoponce> for example
[22:41] <atoponce> we have a texas team, or starting at any event, here in the states
[22:41] <atoponce> there is also a houston team, which is a city in texas
[22:42] <atoponce> because of the size of texas, this is okay. making members drive from one end of the state to the other, just for a meeting is a bit much, so we split it out into smaller teams to distribute the membership, and create that community
[22:43] <atoponce> i should mention at this point that running a loco team should not require much in the way of financial funding
[22:43] <atoponce> if executed correctly, a team can split out the load amongst members costing only a few dollars / year / member
[22:43] <atoponce> this is reasonable
[22:43] <atoponce> cds can be burned. posters printed. t-shirts made
[22:43] <atoponce> all for cheap, if everyone chips in
[22:44] <atoponce> ok. question time
[22:44] <popey> < desertc> QUESTION: How would you address concerns from people who feel their LoCo does not represent their local community, as an extreme example there is only one LoCo for the China team and one for the Russian Team.
[22:45] <atoponce> desertc: well, it's important to sense where the most activity will be. in the case of large countries like china and russia, meeting in person is not optimal
[22:45] <atoponce> as such, online meetings, such as irc, can be great
[22:46] <atoponce> if membership count warrants it, they could split dividing the members geographically, to help facilitate local community work
[22:46] <atoponce> i hope that answers your quetion.
[22:46] <popey> < BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: What kind of contributions do you think someone could\should make if they don't have much free time, or can't really socialize with their group for some reason? For example, a busy college student who is constantly in class or doing homework
[22:47] <atoponce> BonesolTeraDyne: good question. i think it would be important for that person to analyze what time he/she does have available, what talents he/she can add to the group, and go from there
[22:47] <atoponce> in my case, it's blogging and attending the once-per-month meetings
[22:48] <atoponce> but i would say that they need to weigh their free time and see what they can do
[22:48] <popey> < sgtd> QUESTION: How have those in LoCo's found the reaction of local Linux User Groups (LUGs)
[22:49] <atoponce> sgtd: for the most part, very possitve. some LUGs have lost members, but others gained. all in all, i would say that the experience is positive, as long as the loco realizes that it's not to replace the LUG, but work along side it
[22:50] <atoponce> ok. i have about 10 min left, so i'm going to finish on approved /non-approved teams then conflicts, then i'll take any questions that remain. if we go a few minutes over, i'm sure that'll be okay, seeing as though this is the last session. :)
[22:50] <atoponce> i'm sure you've heard about approved teams. what's the point?
[22:51] <atoponce> well, having an approved team gives you a couple of incentives
[22:51] <atoponce> jono may want to help me out on this one, if he's paying attention. :)
[22:51] <atoponce> basically, you get more CDs from canonical than you can get through shipit
[22:52] <atoponce> also, you get booth material for setting up kiosks at fairs and events
[22:52] <atoponce> but, probably the greatest incentive is a piece of pride
[22:52] <atoponce> knowing that the Community Council has approved your team, means you have been recognized by Canonical in your team/community building success
[22:53] <atoponce> getting approved means having an active team, with a good userbase and active comminuty involvement
[22:53] <atoponce> it varies from team to team, but generally, a good rule of thumb is this:
[22:53] <atoponce> 2-3 large community events
[22:53] <atoponce> large membership list
[22:53] <atoponce> active mailing list
[22:53] <atoponce> and regularly scheduled meetings
[22:54] <atoponce> to get approved, create an application on your team wiki, outlining all these in great detail, and submit it to jono
[22:54] <atoponce> if he give you the go-ahead, then you go to the CC seeking approval, just as you would for regular membership
[22:54] <atoponce> finally, conflicts
[22:55] <atoponce> every team has them at one point or the other
[22:55] <atoponce> it's important to note that conflicts sholud be handled by the team, and not taken to the CC if at all possible
[22:55] <atoponce> the CC doesn't need to concern itself with every little problem
[22:55] <atoponce> also, if your team is having a conflict, chances are, it's arisen before
[22:56] <atoponce> so, if your team can't resolve the conflict, then it may be best to take it to some loco leaders that may have experienc or knowledge on how to handle it
[22:56] <atoponce> such as jono, nixternal, Zelut, elkbuntu, PriceChild myself and others
[22:56]  * popey pokes atoponce 
[22:56] <PriceChild> atoponce, not me ;)
[22:57] <atoponce> just remember that 90% of the problems come from a lack of communication
[22:57] <atoponce> team members need to be united in purpose and vision and 100% open in communication to avoid these issues
[22:57] <atoponce> in conclusion, remember that we're about advocacy and strengthening ubuntu in the community
[22:58] <atoponce> it's what makes ubuntu great, and the reason a vast majority of us are using it
[22:58] <atoponce> so, i'll take the last remaning questions now
[22:58] <popey>  < popey> QUESTION: Do you think that LoCos should become incorporated (in some way) in order to handle money (paying for space at venues, CDs, leaflets etc), or they should seek sponsorship - others to handle the money?
[22:58] <popey> (was the first question, but got skipped)
[22:59] <atoponce> popey: that would depend on the team. if they feel that they cannot execute without it, then by all means, they should seek it.
[22:59] <atoponce> i wolud advise to be careful in this area though
[22:59] <H264> popey: I'd seek sponsership
[22:59] <atoponce> it's easy to get distracted and caught up in the details of things like this, losing the greater goal
[22:59] <H264> *sponsorship first
[23:00] <popey> that's all our questions
[23:00] <atoponce> well. thx for having me. it's been a pleasure
[23:00] <popey> thanks very much for taking the time atoponce, very useful session!
[23:00] <atoponce> just remember that ubuntu rocks! and the community rocks harder! :)
[23:00]  * popey applauds
[23:00] <gaurav_> thank you for taking the time ;)
[23:00] <Yasumoto> thanks atoponce! :)
[23:01] <popey> atoponce: one moment
[23:01] <atoponce> np :)
[23:01] <peppych> thank atoponce your connection made it finally ;)
[23:01] <atoponce> glad there wasn't any realy issues. :)
[23:01] <BonesolTeraDyne> thanks atoponce
[23:01] <isabel__> thank Aaron
[23:02] <isabel__> for you time
[23:02] <atoponce> np :)
[23:02]  * Heartsbane thanks Aaron.
[23:02] <popey> atoponce: there is one question i mssed if you have a moment
[23:02] <atoponce> sure
[23:02] <popey> < ttread> QUESTION: Do LoCos usually advocate mainly to desktop users, server admins, or both?  How about terminal server use in schools?
[23:03] <atoponce> ttread: good question. i would say generally, desktop users. but really, it depends on who your target audience is. if going after schools ,then edubuntu seems appropriate. if corporations, then ubuntu-server
[23:03] <atoponce> i would say generally though, desktop users
[23:04] <atoponce> any other questions?
[23:04] <popey> that's your lot
[23:04] <popey> thanks again
[23:04] <atoponce> np
[23:04] <popey> Come back tomorrow everyone!
[23:04] <thaddeusq> popey: what time?
[23:04] <peppych> thanks to all for organizing the open week, I cant wait tomorrow to join more sessions, see you
[23:04] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[23:06] <isabel__> bye ..see you tomorrow :D
[23:06] <popey> bye
[23:06] <BonesolTeraDyne> bye
[23:06] <pwnguin> aww crap, i forgot about open week.
[23:21] <Virusurbano> HELLO
[23:44] <herbert> Hi from Peru!!
[23:48] <nxvl> hi
[23:49] <nxvl> i'm trying to do my first merge
[23:49] <nxvl> and i need some help
[23:53] <FrankQ> You can better go to #ubuntu, probably