PwrKrollso who liked the first day?00:17
greg-gI missed most of it00:25
popeygreg-g: it's all logged00:25
greg-gpopey: I have it all logged locally too :)00:26
greg-gbut that is nice and split up by session00:26
greg-gpopey: were you here all day?00:26
savvasoh yeah00:26
savvasnothing some caffeine wouldn't fix hehe00:27
savvasalthough it's a drug and as a future physician I shouldn't recommend it..00:27
savvasbut heck.. it helps me stay up!00:28
greg-gthe most caffeine addicted people I know are docs00:28
greg-gbut, that isn't to say all docs are caffeine addicted00:28
savvaswell it doesn't get to me that easily00:29
savvasI don't drink coffee a lot, but I had two cups for the previous exam00:30
savvasI managed to stay extra 2 hours up, then *puff* :p00:30
greg-gsavvas: should we move this chat over to ubuntu-classroom-chat?00:30
DShepherdshould i assume that the transcripts for today sessions are not up as yet?00:35
DShepherdvas, oh ok00:35
vaswhat time is the next class00:36
naliothvas: see /topic00:36
popeyDShepherd: they are up00:36
vasyes but utc in greece00:36
DShepherdpopey, you sure?00:36
popeyyes, I put them up00:36
popeyclick the links00:36
vaswhat time is in utc now?00:37
DShepherdoh. i was checking the wrong link..00:38
popey11:37pm vas00:38
vasthnak you00:38
vasin greece is 2:38 in th morning00:38
DShepherdpopey, thanks for the link. hey your the one who does the screenscasts?00:38
popeyi am one of them yes DShepherd00:38
DShepherdpopey, oh. well..00:39
DShepherdGREAT WORK MAN!!!00:39
DShepherdpopey, tell your theme to keep it up00:39
vaswhat kind of knowledge i should have to attend the class?00:39
vasi need to prepare00:39
vasgood  night guys see you tomorrow00:43
vasin the class00:43
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AcBushCan anyone in here help me? I have centos, but im just trying to install a dang torrent program....im a linux newb and cannot figure it out for the life of me01:40
naliothAcBush: apt-get install azureus01:41
AcBushbash: apt-get: command not found01:42
LinuxJuggalonalioth: centos dont have apt-get, AcBush: yum install azureus01:42
naliothAcBush: why are you asking Centos questions in an #ubuntu channel?01:42
naliothwhy are you not in #centos ?01:42
AcBushI have no idea, but centos says I was banned? I have no idea why....and you guys are much more helpful.01:43
AcBushI just wanna get azureus, so I can get vista back on my desktop....and then I can install ubuntu on my laptop01:43
naliothi have no idea what Centos even is based on01:43
LinuxJuggalonalioth: CentOS is based on RHEL01:44
AcBushLinuxJuggalo, it didnt a bunch of updating and stuff....then it said01:44
AcBushNo Match for argument: azureus01:44
AcBushNothing to do01:44
AcBush[root@localhost ~]#01:44
AcBushBtw, I appreciate it...much01:44
LinuxJuggaloAcBush maybe its not in the default repositories, try looking in universe01:44
naliothAcBush: join #fedora or #redhat for better help01:44
AcBushI just need to install a torrent program....Im pulling my hair out....01:47
alfermpHello, i need a littel help with my treo 750. How can i sync my treo with my ubuntu gutsy01:49
chris_mcnamara /quit01:50
LinuxJuggaloAcBush: you can also just search for the azureus rpm, then run from root: rpm -ivh filename.rpm01:51
AcBushwell, i did yum search torrent...and it said reading repositorty metadata in from local files01:52
AcBushthen it said01:52
AcBushBitTorrent.noarch 3.9.1-1 installed01:52
AcBushDoes that mean bittorent is installed? If so, how in the hell do I run it?01:52
LinuxJuggalocd to the app directory and execute it01:53
naliothLinuxJuggalo: it's not that simple01:54
AcBushAnd to execute it?01:54
naliothAcBush: open a termninal and type "btdownloadgui" <press enter key>01:54
AcBushCommand Not Found :(01:55
nalioththen i have no clue at all01:55
naliothperhaps #bittorrent might be of help01:55
naliothor ##linux01:55
AcBushI've been trying to install a program for over 2 hours.01:58
AcBushand still have no idea what im doing.01:58
nealmcbdesertc: have you seen the mootbot?02:52
nealmcbMootBot: help02:52
SOUL_ASSASSINis anybody familiar with bcm43xx-fwcutter?04:09
=== whs is now known as willwill
juan-argalguno habla español?08:46
ubotuSi busca ayuda en Español por favor entre en los canales #ubuntu-es, #kubuntu-es o #edubuntu-es, allí obtendrá mas ayuda.08:47
juan-argno no busco ayuda solo queria saber si algunoi hablaba en español09:03
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seer-as-shubhucan anyone tell what is todays session about newbie to ubuntu-classroom13:48
gnomefreakseer-as-shubhu: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek13:50
stdinsee https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for the schedule13:50
gnomefreakseer-as-shubhu: if in doubt type /topic13:51
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
gnomefreakgood morning dholbach13:51
dholbachhiya gnomefreak13:51
=== stdin_ is now known as stdin
DrDabblesOkay, so, giving irssi a shot. I just wish something as seemingly powerful as this existed in the GUI space. Though, I may just have to learn the Xchat-gnome project and work on improving it. :-P14:35
axisysIndex Preference under Email tab thunderbird is grayed out.. how do I enable it?14:42
PriceChild!support | DrDabbles axisys14:45
ubotuDrDabbles axisys: the official ubuntu support channel is #ubuntu. Also see http://ubuntu.com/support and http://ubuntuforums.org14:45
DrDabblesPriceChild: I mistakenly typed in the wrong channel. Not asking for support. Thanks.14:46
daimonwhen is the next session?14:54
PriceChilddaimon, /topic14:54
zenmester15 utc14:54
Sophomorewhich is to say, roughly an hour14:55
Sophomorefrom now14:55
daimonThanks, sorry to bother.14:55
=== sara is now known as tikal26
zenmesterSophomore: I understood that UTC is the same as GMT  that would make it now.15:04
kelsindaylight savings time I think is screwing with my idea too, would make me -4 instead of -5 gmt, hence my miss-estimate of the time :)15:07
daimonwhile we wait, does anyone here have metasploit running on 7.10?15:09
tazzdaimon: i do15:09
daimondo you happen to be using the db_postgres plugin?15:10
daimonare you using any of the db plugins?15:10
tazzdaimon: why do you ask?15:11
daimonI've got msfconsole working fine, and I've got postgres up and running on my box, but any time I try using something like db_create or db_nmap I get errors15:11
tazzdaimon: i dont think its perfect.15:12
daimonnoticed that15:12
daimonI can get db_autopwn working on BT2 and a slackware install, but for some reason it isn't playing nice with ubuntu15:13
tazzdaimon: i just loaded db_postgres and i think we are going ot big time here, mind joining #metasploit?15:19
jamesfoster@time utc15:46
ubotuCurrent time in Etc/UTC: October 23 2007, 14:46:38 - Next meeting: Server Team in 13 minutes15:46
GnuGustavohi everyone15:46
jonoI don't know about everyone else, but I am excited to see the rockstar known as Daniel 'dholbach' Holbach :)15:48
DrDabblesjono: Actually, I'm excited for that but also excited to grab a brew or two with you on Friday15:48
jonoDrDabbles: bring it on!15:48
adamsweetjono: and I thought you were going to say me15:48
rrittenhouse(?) Next meeting: Server Team in 13 minutes15:49
jonoadamsweet: unlikely, my short, spiky friend15:49
DrDabblesJono: My girlfriend is excited to meet you as well. Which has me worried. :/15:49
jonoDrDabbles: bow chicka waa waa!15:49
dholbachheya :-)15:49
dholbachrrittenhouse: that's for #ubuntu-meeting :)15:49
sorenrrittenhouse: No, the server team meeting is in ...15:49
rrittenhouseooooh ;)15:49
tazzjono, hi, i read your blog @ ubuntu15:49
sorenyes, that dholbach said. :)15:49
dholbachjono: what about the backstage requests I made earlier on? :)15:49
popeydholbach: do you want/need me to moderate and/or paste in questions,15:50
jonotazz: hey :)15:50
dholbachpopey: that'd be awesome15:50
jonodholbach: white doves present and correct15:50
DrDabblestazz: Do you listen to LUGRadio?15:50
jonopopey: I owe you a pint, my friend15:50
tazzDrDabbles: nopw15:50
popeyjust the one!?15:50
jonoadamsweet is one of the LugRadio presenters btw15:50
DrDabblestazz: www.lugradio.org15:50
jonohe is the cool one15:50
* jono chuckles15:50
jonoabout as cool as a blazing furnace, that is15:50
tazzlol at first i thought poppey was a bot :-D15:50
deandelponteso, prepare for profanity and insults!15:51
* adamsweet bows and thwacks jono across the chops15:51
DrDabblestazz: jono is what you might call a personality on that show15:51
* wankoo waves15:51
GnuGustavoeffie_jayx, where r u man15:51
tazzoh was he now?15:51
jonowankoo: unfortunate choice of nick :P15:51
PriceChildjono, don't make me !ohmy you :D15:51
Sodkijono: Hi, I'm the boring guy who asked you about boring package stuff in Évora, last Saturday. :-)15:51
jonoPriceChild: do it15:51
jonoPriceChild: do it15:51
jonoPriceChild: do it15:51
PriceChild!ohmy | jono15:51
ubotujono: Please watch your language and topic, and keep this channel family friendly.15:51
jonoSodki: hey :) you were not boring :)15:52
popeyand jono knows boring when he sees it15:52
jonoSodki: dholbach was the guy I mentioned :)15:52
jonoPriceChild: grass15:52
effie_jayxjono, behave...15:52
PriceChildjono, pardon?15:53
jonowow, great turn out for packaging 101 so far15:53
tazzhey dholbach, btw dhol in hindi is a kind of drum :-P15:53
jonohey Hobbsee15:54
dholbachtazz: cool :-)))15:54
DrDabblesAh, just enough time to get a cuppa coffee15:54
wankoojono: why is this nick unfortunate?15:54
deandelpontewankoo:  google it15:55
deandelponte"wank"  :)15:55
Amaranthwow dholbach is going to be very busy this week15:55
jonoAmaranth: heya dude15:55
jonoAmaranth: I am right in thinking you are at UDS?15:55
Amaranthjono: yep15:55
jonogood stuff :)15:55
wankoooops :(15:56
PriceChildNot exactly easy to miss... how tall are you?!15:56
AmaranthPriceChild: about 2m15:56
jcastrosasquatch cowers before him15:56
panosrui have a question and i would like someone to answer it15:56
popeypanosru: a classroom session is about to start15:57
popeyyou might want to ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat15:57
popeyor if it's of a support nature in #ubuntu15:57
panosrupopey, before i ask, may i make my question about ubuntu here?15:57
popeypanosru: you can ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat15:58
panosrupopey, my question is about windows or mac or ubuntu15:58
panosrupopey thanks :)15:58
cbaoth_ /ignore -channels #ubuntu-classroom * JOINS PARTS15:58
Picicbaoth_: you probably want QUITS aswell.15:58
=== popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Current Session: Packaging 101 - Session 1 - Daniel Holbach
jonoladies and gentlemen15:59
* adamsweet rolls drums15:59
jonoplease prepare15:59
jonofor the legend15:59
jonothe man15:59
warp10|GutsyingHi all!15:59
jonothe stuff of legend15:59
jonodaniel "kickarse" holbach15:59
* Hobbsee dies of shock, at the greatness of dholbach15:59
dholbachWelcome everybody to the Packaging 101 session!15:59
dholbachjono, Hobbsee: thanks a lot for that introduction :-)16:00
M0useP0t4t0thanks for invitation @ tuxmaniac :) appreciated!16:00
dholbachfor those who don't know me yet16:00
dholbachMy name is Daniel Holbach, I work for Canonical, part of the MOTU team for a long time and have worked in a couple of other Ubuntu teams already. What I'm working on now is trying to make becoming a MOTU more easier and enjoyable, so if you have any questions, recommendations or worries outside of this session, feel free to drop me a mail at dholbach@ubuntu.com16:00
popeyGuys, can we please take chatter and questions to the #ubuntu-classroom-chat channel, not here. Thanks.16:00
dholbachif you have any questions about the session itself, as popey says: ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat with QUESTION prefixed16:01
dholbachWho of you already started contributing to Ubuntu in form of packages or patches?16:01
dholbachOk: Who of you started playing with packaging tools already? :-)16:01
* Amaranth ​16:01
mruizdholbach, me!16:01
SophomoreI have16:01
Sodkime, but on Gentoo16:01
matthe1a little16:01
* Jucato a bit16:01
* effie_jayx raises hand16:01
* Tesla-BOO6C4E-HE 16:01
* Martinp23 :)16:01
peppychfirst try this afternoon16:01
* tuxmaniac pokes in16:01
warp10|Gutsyingme too!16:01
* andresmujica feels ashamed16:01
dholbachrock on! that's a great start! :-)16:02
bahadunnme too but mostly just debian packages16:02
* jono smiles16:02
dholbachWhat I want to show in today's sessions is two tasks Ubuntu Developers do quite often: 1) updating a package to a new upstream release, 2) providing a debdiff.16:02
dholbachWhy are they important? These tasks are performed quite often and if you're able to make good use of them, it's a very good starting point to get involved as an Ubuntu Developer.16:02
* evarlast raises hand. and using PPA - it rules!16:02
dholbachHow do you become an Ubuntu Developer? First of all you become a MOTU: a Master Of The Universe. The process is all written up on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers - basically it boils down to:16:03
dholbach 1) contribute patches and new packages16:03
dholbach 2) get them reviewed by the reviewer team16:03
dholbach 3) get them uploaded by a sponsor16:03
dholbach 4) Go back to 1) a couple of times until your sponsors tell you "I'm tired of this - you should be able to do this yourself."16:03
dholbach 5) Write your application to the MOTU Council.16:04
evarlasts/configure;make;make install/dh_make -s ;dch -v; debuild;dpkg -i/g #;p16:04
dholbachhttp://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess explains how uploads get sponsored. Sponsoring means: somebody who's allowed to upload to the build daemons, will sign your package with their GPG key and upload it for you.16:04
dholbachThe review process is also quite easy: you file a bug with the a link to the source package or attach the patch (debdiff), then you subscribe either ubuntu-main-sponsors (for packages in main or restricted) or ubuntu-universe-sponsors (for packages that live in universe or multiverse).16:04
dholbachAre there any questions about that already?16:04
manish-manipalany oyher sponsors?16:05
manish-manipalany other sponsors?16:05
popeyyou want specific questions or just next in the queue dholbach ?16:05
Amaranthmanish-manipal: #ubuntu-classroom-chat16:05
dholbachpopey: what you have in the queue already :)16:05
popey< oly-> QUESTION: I have just recently packaging an application i have written, i use the command dpkg-deb -b folder, i have been told i should not package this way any reason why ? and is this correct ?16:05
Amaranthdholbach: The current questions have nothing to do with what you just talked about16:06
dholbacholy-: there are a variety of different ways packaging applications: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic will help you with that16:06
oly-I know there are a few ways, i was just curious if there is any reason why i should not use that method,16:07
dholbacholy-: all the necessary bits in the debian/ directory are explained there - if you need help with your package, just write a mail to ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com16:07
dholbacholy-: I'd need to look at your source package to say that16:07
popey< scorpioxy> QUESTION: Is there anything specific or magical about packaging a gnome applet written in pyGTK?16:07
dholbachscorpioxy: no, that should be relatively easy - in http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Basic there should be a couple of python reference packages that you could look at16:08
dholbachscorpioxy: same goes for you: if you need help ask on the mentors list16:08
popey< evarlast> QUESTION: what is being done about the sparse documentation, conflicting documentation? What further documentation could be reference for packaging things like python apps, python libs via eggs, mono apps and libs, ruby apps, etc ?16:08
* dholbach is happy to see so many people doing packaging work already :)16:08
dholbachevarlast: good question!16:08
dholbachevarlast: it's something I've been working on in the last weeks and will continue to work on16:08
dholbachevarlast: I plan http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment to be the definite namespaces for things to live in16:09
popey< tuxmaniac> QUESTION: How is the sync between debian testing and Ubuntu done. Is there any involvement of the maintainer, MOTU other than the "Acks" ?16:09
dholbachtuxmaniac: the sync process is quite easy: 1) make sure we can sync the new version from debian (by proof reading the diff, test-building, test-installing), 2) file a bug with the sync request16:10
dholbachit's explained on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment too16:10
popey< DrDabbles> QUESTION: If I have an upstream update to a package not contained in UNIVERSE or MULTIVERSE...what happens?16:10
dholbach(or linked from there at leasT)16:10
dholbachDrDabbles: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment#NewPackages explains what to do16:10
=== warp10|Gutsying is now known as warp10
dholbachDrDabbles: either you package it on your own or you file a request for somebody else to do it16:11
dholbachboth is explained there16:11
dholbachTo sum it up: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers are the process pages that you really want to bookmark, if you're interested in packaging and joining the team. :-)16:11
dholbachThe MOTU team can be found on #ubuntu-motu and at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU - if you need help with anything let us know, there's also our motu-mentors list at http://lists.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-motu-mentors16:11
DrDabblesdholback: I actually mean what if it's in MAIN versus UNIVERSE16:11
dholbachDrDabbles: oh right - to get it into main it needs a review and to fulfil a couple of prerequisites16:12
dholbachthe process is on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuMainInclusionRequirements I beliebe16:12
dholbachhope that helps16:12
popey < tikal26> Question- How you can check if someone else is packaging something16:13
dholbachyou can either check http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs and filter the needs-packaging bugs and see if it was filed there16:13
dholbachor check http://revu.tauware.de16:13
dholbach(also if you want to know if somebody in Debian works on it: check http://bugs.debian.org/wnpp I believe)16:13
dholbachlet's get started updating a package16:14
dholbachone of the first things we need is check if we have deb-src entries in our /etc/apt/sources.list16:14
dholbachdeb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu gutsy main restricted universe multiverse     if you're on gutsy already16:15
dholbachthe next step will be to set up the DEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL variables16:15
dholbachI have these two lines in my   ~/.bashrc16:16
dholbachexport DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'16:16
dholbachexport DEBEMAIL='daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com'16:16
kavoorQUESTION: where can i get older versions .. for ex : firefox v 1.516:16
dholbachplease add something along those lines if you haven't already16:16
dholbachand run    source ~/.bashrc    in the terminal afterwards16:16
popeykavoor: please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat thanks16:16
dholbachthese two variables are used by a couple of tools and it will spare you the pain of changing them manually16:17
kavoor#join ubuntu-classroom-chat16:17
dholbachafter that we'll install a couple of tools we'll need along the way16:17
dholbachsudo apt-get install devscripts build-essential wget cdbs fakeroot liburi-perl debhelper16:17
popeykavoor: /join #ubuntu-classroom-chat16:17
dholbach . build-essential will give you a minimal build environment (make, gcc, etc.)16:18
dholbach . devscripts includes tools that make packaging a lot easier16:18
dholbachetc - this is all explained on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide16:18
dholbachBuildTools is the section I believe16:18
dholbach<mruiz> QUESTION: I dholbach. It would be great if you can explain to us how to prepare our development environment (hardy chroot, pbuilder, etc). Thanks!16:19
dholbachmruiz: for this tutorial I did not plan to set up chroots or pbuilders as it might take too long for those on a slow connection16:19
dholbachnow we'll get the source of the old package16:20
dholbachI chose the somewhat historic case of brasero 0.5.2 -> brasero 0.5.9016:20
dholbach(as it worked nicely for me... :))16:20
dholbachso instead of running       apt-get source brasero        to get the source from the archive, we'll run:16:20
dholbach dget -x http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/motu/brasero_0.5.2-0ubuntu1.dsc16:20
dholbachif the download is done on your machine, you'll see that it has downloaded a .orig.tar.gz, a .diff.gz and a .dsc file16:21
dholbachthe .orig.tar.gz file is the source tarball the upstream author provided on his homepage16:22
dholbachthe .diff.gz file contains the compressed changes done by the package maintainer16:22
dholbachthe .dsc file is a text-only description file16:22
dholbachnow we'll get the new source upstream tarball we want to update to (0.5.90):16:22
dholbachwget http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/motu/brasero-0.5.90.tar.gz16:22
sgtddemonstrating /topic16:22
dholbachnow we'll extract the tarball:16:23
dholbach tar xfz brasero-0.5.90.tar.gz16:23
dholbachand rename it to the .orig.tar.gz file name:16:23
dholbach mv brasero-0.5.90.tar.gz brasero_0.5.90.orig.tar.gz16:23
* RainCT says hi (a bit late :P)16:24
dholbachnow we'll simply copy the packaging changes over: in this case it's simply the debian directory16:24
popeyRainCT: ----> #ubuntu-classroom-chat16:24
dholbachcp -r brasero-0.5.2/debian brasero-0.5.90/16:24
dholbachnow let's get the build-dependencies for the package:16:24
dholbachsudo apt-get build-dep brasero16:24
dholbachthis might take a while, so I'm happy to take on a few questions16:25
popey< Knightlust> QUESTION: why host reviews on revu.tauware.de? Why not host it at revu.ubuntu.com?16:25
dholbachKnightlust: good question. it was community contributed solution to help with reviewing packages, I believe there was a .ubuntu.com redirect or hostname for quite a while16:25
dholbachthat's all I can say for now16:26
popey< kavoor> QUESTION: where can i get older versions .. for ex : firefox v 1.516:26
dholbachkavoor: best to check on launchpad: http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/firefox - there you should be able to get all old versions of it16:26
popey< gonzalo> QUESTION: How do we get any other packages? Like, say, synaptic? Is there a standard place from where to retrieve them?16:27
dholbachgonzalo: if you're talking about the source, it's simply        apt-get source synaptic16:27
popey< DrDabbles> QUESTION: If the new version has different build deps, just install them manually and note the packaging metadata?16:27
dholbachDrDabbles: that's a very good question16:27
dholbachif you run       diff -u brasero-0.5.{2,90}/configure.in16:28
dholbachyou will notice that quite a few things have changed from a build system point of view during those two releases (0.5.2, 0.5.90)16:28
dholbachfor example16:28
dholbachthat's a change you definitely want to reflect in debian/control16:29
dholbachif you all look at brasero-0.5.90/debian/control  for a sec, you'll see the Build-Depends line16:29
dholbachit contains all the packages that are required to be installed to build the package16:30
dholbachour version of brasero does not seem to make use of libburn, but libnautilus-burn16:30
dholbachso that change does not affect us16:30
dholbachDrDabbles: but generally: that's very important to check16:30
popey< Sophomore> QUESTION: wouldn't it be safer just to gzip -dc ../brasero*diff.gz | patch -p1 than copy the debian dir over? it'd be cleaner to do this I'd imagine, so ~ backup files wouldn't be copied over as well16:31
dholbachSophomore: definitely, we could also make use of debian/watch files and use uupdate, which would do it all for you16:31
dholbachSophomore: this was a selected easy example16:31
dholbachSophomore: but yeah, I agree16:31
popey< ian_brasil> Question : how can I add my key to the revu ring?...the emaill address on the page is not valid16:31
dholbachian_brasil: best to ask on #ubuntu-motu, there's always a few revu admins around16:32
dholbach(if it's not explained in a different way on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU)16:32
popey< tuxmaniac> QUESTION: How do I proceed if I dont want my machine to get loaded with all the build-deps of my packages. Is there a way to install build-deps -> remove after work done?16:32
dholbachtuxmaniac: good question: there's for example pbuilder: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto16:32
dholbachwhich will create a chrooted environment, in which those packages are installed and de-installed16:33
dholbachit has the benefit of building in a clean and minimal environment16:33
dholbachI just didn't feel we'd have the time for everybody to set up a chroot in this session16:33
popey < andresmujica> QUESTION: Which is the best way to help usefully to packaging without being a developer?16:33
dholbachandresmujica: it does not take a lot of coding experience to work on packaging. it's more important that you test things carefully, you're able to read documentation, talk to people and are interested in making things work and dive in directly16:34
dholbachandresmujica: on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Bugs we have a bunch of tasks that are suited for new contributors, you might want to check out the 'bitesize' tasks16:35
dholbachok, let's move on, everybody all set? all build-depends installed? :)16:35
dholbachfor each upload you prepare in ubuntu, you add a new changelog entry, so that's what we'll do now16:36
dholbachcd brasero-0.5.9016:36
dholbachdch -i16:36
dholbachyou will notice that a lot of the changelog entry has already been prepared for you16:36
dholbachDEBFULLNAME and DEBMAIL was used and the upload target ('gutsy') should also be there16:37
dholbachwe'll change the version string to 0.5.90-0ubuntu116:37
dholbachwhich means: 0.5.90 is the upstream version16:37
dholbachand 0ubuntu1 is the first upload to ubuntu (without being merged with a debian version)16:38
dholbach0.5.90-1 would be the first upload going to debian, we might decide to sync that16:38
dholbach(depending on the differences in the packaging)16:38
dholbachalso we'll change the upload target (it might say 'gutsy' or 'feisty' in your case) to 'hardy'16:39
dholbachin Ubuntu we can only do uploads to the "current development release"16:39
dholbachgutsy is released, so it was closed and only uploads to gutsy-updates and gutsy-security can happen16:39
dholbach(Ok, -proposed is part of that, and there's also -backports)16:40
dholbachadd a fancy changelog entry like        "New Upstream release"16:40
dholbachand save the file16:40
dholbachnow run      debuild -S -sa16:40
dholbachthis will build the source package (create the .diff.gz and .dsc file) for you16:41
dholbachit might complain if you don't have GPG set up, but that's expected and OK in our case16:41
dholbachcheck out https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto after the session, you'll need it to become an Ubuntu developer :)16:41
dholbach<ian_brasil> Question: i am currently uploading some documentation to my PPA into universe/devel ...should this be marked Gutsy or Hardy?16:42
dholbachian_brasil: if you want to get it into hardy, use hardy16:42
dholbachhardy should be set up right now, I hope the PPAs are on hardy too already - best to ask in #launchpad16:42
dholbachif not, using 'gutsy' for reviewing and testing purposes should be fine16:42
popey< ian_brasil> Question: if i want to send my work to someone to review what file do I need to send?16:43
dholbachian_brasil: best to upload it to some place and give them the link to the .dsc file16:44
dholbachian_brasil: that way, they can simply run        dget -x <link>16:44
dholbach(and get the whole package downloaded)16:44
dholbach.orig.tar.gz .diff.gz and .dsc are mandatory16:44
popey< tuxmaniac> QUESTION: This package has a Debian revision number but there does not seem to be16:44
popey< tuxmaniac> QUESTION: I have the .orig.tar.gz but it still gives this warning. Any thing I missed out?16:44
popey< tuxmaniac> QUESTION: This package has a Debian revision number but there does not seem to be an appropriate original tar file or .orig directory in the parent directory;16:45
popey< tuxmaniac> QUESTION: I have the .orig.tar.gz but it still gives this warning. Any thing I missed out?16:45
dholbachtuxmaniac: is this the output you get?16:45
dholbachdaniel@bert:~$ ls *.tar.gz16:45
dholbachbrasero_0.5.2.orig.tar.gz  brasero_0.5.90.orig.tar.gz16:45
tuxmaniacdholbach, yes16:45
dholbachtuxmaniac: and did you change the version number in debian/changelog to 0.5.90-0ubuntu116:45
dholbach(of the new changelog entry)16:46
dholbachonce you've done that, run    debuild -S -sa    again16:46
=== alf_ is now known as castigador
dholbachok, now we'll do a test build of the package16:47
dholbachup until now, we just did source changes and built source packages16:47
dholbachthese source packages are uploaded to the Ubuntu build daemons, building the binary packages locally is still important for testing reasons16:47
dholbachso now please run         debuild -us -uc16:47
dholbachthis will build the package and not ask you to sign the packages :-)16:48
dholbachI suppose this will take a while for everybody, so please ask questions in the meantime16:48
hydrogenOo, it failed!16:49
popeyQUESTION: compile failed here16:49
dholbachwhat's the error message, popey?16:49
popeythats the end of it16:49
DrDabblesComplains about no members for BraseroDataDiscPrivate16:49
eyedolI'm late. whats happening ATM16:50
popeyeyedol: --> #ubuntu-classroom-chat please16:50
dholbachinteresting, checking16:50
tuxmaniacdholbach, failed for me too16:50
AsSFOuRhi all16:50
peppych+1 :(16:51
* hydrogen rebuilds to get the original error message16:51
dholbachI'm sorry this happened - it worked for me when I prepared it16:51
dholbachthe problem is here:16:51
dholbachdata-disc.c:89: Fehler: expected specifier-qualifier-list before »GtkTooltips«16:51
dholbachdata-disc.c: In Funktion »brasero_data_disc_get_property«:16:51
dholbachdata-disc.c:602: Fehler: »BraseroDataDiscPrivate« hat kein Element namens »reject_files«16:51
dholbachdata-disc.c: In Funktion »brasero_data_disc_set_property«:16:51
dholbachI'm sure this is resolved in a newer version of brasero16:52
dholbachsorry to let you all run into this problem, we won't get that fixed just now16:52
dholbachI suggest we do a five minutes break until the next session?16:52
popeythanks dholbach16:52
=== popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Current Session: Packaging 101 - Session 2 - Daniel Holbach
dholbachok, welcome back to Session 216:58
dholbachsorry about the problem again, I found the solution in the meantime ;-)16:58
dholbachsomebody said in #ubuntu-classroom-chat "this was a good example" earlier16:58
dholbachand I think it really was: because it shows that MOTU work is sometimes detective work too :)16:59
dholbachas I said before: the new upstream version fixes it, so let's get the newest source and try again16:59
dholbach wget http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/gnome/sources/brasero/0.6/brasero-0.6.1.tar.gz16:59
dholbachrootvzla QUESTION: ¿As I am able comensar to work with the pbuilder and since where comienso since splits of it guides of pbuilder comienso to read?17:00
dholbachrootvzla: I don't speak spanish, but yeah, you can use pbuilder for this too, it's explained at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto how to use it17:00
dholbachonce you've set it up, you just run        sudo pbuilder build file.dsc17:00
unnamedXDcomenzar = begin17:00
dholbachand it will do the rest for you17:00
dholbachbut won't deal with this in this session17:01
dholbachonce you've got the tarball, run17:01
dholbachmv brasero-0.6.1.tar.gz brasero_0.6.1.orig.tar.gz17:01
dholbachcp -r brasero-0.5.90/debian brasero-0.6.117:01
dholbachcd brasero-0.6.117:01
dholbachdch -i17:01
dholbachand add a new changelog entry17:01
dholbachMake sure the version number is 0.6.1-0ubuntu1 this time17:02
dholbachand add something like 'New upstream release' as a changelog entry17:02
dholbachsome maintainers like to list interesting things that have happened upstream, the NEWS file is usually a good source of information for that17:03
dholbachsave the file and run    debuild -S -sa     again17:03
dholbachnow, let's see if we get it building now :-)17:04
dholbach debuild -us -uc17:04
dholbach<matthe1> QUESTION: matthew@matthew:~/brasero-0.6.1$ dch -i17:04
dholbach dch: fatal error at line 391:17:04
dholbach Cannot find debian/changelog anywhere!17:04
dholbachmatthe1: you haven't copied over the debian/ directory from our previous build17:05
dholbach cp -r brasero-0.5.90/debian brasero-0.6.117:05
dholbachsuccess/failure reports from anybody? :-)17:05
dholbachROCK ON17:05
dholbachwe've build our first package :)17:06
dholbachwhat might be interesting is to look and see what changed in the meantime in the packages17:06
dholbachcd ..; wget http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/motu/brasero_0.5.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb17:06
dholbachwe'll download the old binary package and compare the two17:06
dholbachdebdiff brasero_0.5.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb brasero_0.6.1-0ubuntu1_i386.deb      (if you're using i386)17:07
dholbachwill show which files changed, which dependencies changed etc17:08
dholbachit's important for the maintainer to check that, to see if files have gone missing, etc17:08
dholbachthat was the first thing I wanted to show you: updating a package can be quite easy and is a good step to get involved17:09
dholbachseb128 and lool are always looking for new contributors in the desktop team and they're preparing a lot of GNOME updates17:09
dholbach#ubuntu-desktop and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO might get you started in that team :)17:09
dholbachalso there are a lot of bugs tagged as 'upgrade', the link is on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Bugs17:10
dholbachok, let's move on to the second example I have in mind, if there are no more questions about this one17:10
LjL<afranke> QUESTION: isn't it up to the package maintainer to update packages?17:11
dholbachthanks LjL17:11
dholbachafranke: excellent question17:11
dholbachin Ubuntu we maintain all the packages in teams17:11
dholbachso for all GNOME related packages, you want to talk to the desktop team17:11
dholbachfor telepathy related packages to the telepathy team and so on17:11
dholbachhttp://wiki.ubuntu.com/Teams contains links to all of them17:12
LjL<evarlast> QUESTION: the first item at DesktopTeam/TODO says "needs UVFe". What is UVFe? and where can we find information about accronyms which may be common to packagers?17:12
tuxmaniacdholbach, you forgot bluetooth :-)17:12
dholbachtuxmaniac: exactly :)17:12
=== jasbir__ is now known as jassik
dholbachevarlast: that's a relict of the last release cycle17:12
dholbachUVFe means Upstream Version Freeze exception17:12
dholbachhttp://wiki.ubuntu.com/GutsyReleaseSchedule shows the schedule for the gutsy release17:13
dholbachUpstream Version Freeze means: no new upstream versions without approval17:13
dholbacheverything related to freeze exceptions is explained at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess17:13
dholbach<rootvzla> QUESTION: ¿With the pbuilder can work itself in any flavor of ubuntu can be feisty fawn, gutsy gibbon in other flavors or can work itself ajuro in a single flavor is a question tecnica simple?17:13
dholbachrootvzla: pbuilder-dist of the ubuntu-dev-tools package might help with that17:14
dholbachok, moving on17:14
dholbachLet's suppose we had received a bug report about the package description of xicc17:14
dholbachsaying that 'colour' should be 'color' instead17:14
dholbachit's ridiculous and would probably be rejected in reality, but just for the sake of the excercise, let's do it17:15
dholbachfirst we check if that's actually true and run17:15
dholbachapt-cache show xicc17:15
dholbachamong other things we get this:17:16
dholbach This utility lets you set an ICC colour profile for an X display, so that17:16
dholbach applications can use it to display colour calibrated images.  Applications have17:16
dholbach to specifically look for this atom but several applications such as Gimp and17:16
dholbach Eye Of Gnome already do.17:16
dholbachseems we have work to do :-)17:16
dholbachlet's get the source code for it:17:16
dholbachdget -x http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/motu/xicc_0.2-2.dsc17:16
dholbachthings like the package description are found in debian/control too17:17
dholbachcd xicc-0.217:17
dholbachsed -i 's/colour/color/g' debian/control17:17
kongois the session over ?17:17
LjLkongo: no. sssh17:17
dholbach(or open debian/control in your favourite editor and change it by hand)17:17
dholbachnow we'll add a debian changelog entry again17:17
dholbachdch -i17:17
dholbachmake sure we upload to 'hardy'17:18
dholbachand also make sure we explicitily state what we did17:18
dholbachso something like        * debian/control: change all occurences of 'colour' to 'color'      might be a good idea17:18
dholbach0.2-2ubuntu1 as a version number is fine17:19
dholbach'0.2' is the upstream version, '-2' the debian revision and 'ubuntu1' our change with regard to that17:20
dholbachsave the file and run      debuild -S     to build the source package17:20
dholbachI get the following:17:21
dholbachdpkg-source: error: Version number suggests Ubuntu changes, but Maintainer: does not have Ubuntu address17:21
dholbachdebuild: fatal error at line 1247:17:21
dholbachdpkg-source -b xicc-0.2 failed17:21
dholbacheverybody has that?17:21
dholbachthat's due to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField17:22
* hydrogen didn't get that..17:22
dholbachour friends in the Debian team asked us to change the maintainer field in packages, when we touch them17:22
giftnudel(there's a warning for me only)17:22
dholbachthat's why we need to do the following:17:22
dholbachedit debian/control and17:22
dholbachreplace        Maintainer: Ross Burton <ross@debian.org>17:22
dholbachXSBC-Original-Maintainer: Ross Burton <ross@debian.org>17:23
dholbachMaintainer: Ubuntu MOTU Developers <ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com>17:23
LjLtuxmaniac isn't getting the error message, either17:23
dholbachwe still preserve the original Maintainer, but as a general maintainer for a universe package, we set the MOTU team17:23
hydrogenits a warning here rather than an error17:23
dholbachthat's really weird, that some of you don't get the error17:23
dholbachmaybe we can investigate later17:23
dholbachstill http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField is a policy decision we need to adhere to17:24
dholbach(the update-maintainer tool in the ubuntu-dev-tools package does it automatically)17:24
dholbachnow we'll build the source package again17:24
dholbachdebuild -S17:24
dholbachif you now run17:25
dholbachcd ..; debdiff xicc_0.2-2.dsc xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.dsc17:25
dholbachit will show you a debdiff17:25
dholbach(note that we used the tool in the other session already, but there we ran it on .deb packages)17:25
dholbachthis time we want to see source changes17:26
dholbachcan you paste your debdiff to http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/ to see if we're all on the same page?17:26
LjL<savvas> QUESTION: where are debtags saved (the tags for each deb package)?17:26
dholbachLjL: to be honest with you, I've never used debtags much17:27
dholbachI'll get an answer17:27
dholbachany successful debdiffs on pastebin.ubuntu.com?17:28
LjL<giftnudel> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1243/17:28
dholbachgiftnudel: excellent work17:28
dholbachthat's exactly what it should look like17:28
dholbachnow if you run     debdiff xicc_0.2-2.dsc xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.dsc > xicc_0.2.2ubuntu1.debdiff17:28
dholbachthe debdiff will be written to a file17:29
dholbachand is ready to get reviewed using http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess17:29
dholbachso if you come across a bug you want to fix, you'd attach that debdiff file to it17:29
giftnudel(except for my e-mailadress)17:29
dholbachand subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors (for packages that live in universe and multiverse)17:30
dholbachand subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors (for packages that live in main and restricted)17:30
dholbachthat's it17:30
dholbachand that's your path to becoming a MOTU :)17:30
dholbachafter a few successful reviews, learning and encouragement of the team, you can ask to get added to the motu team17:30
dholbach<isagani> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1245/17:31
dholbachgood work isagani17:31
LjL<tuxmaniac> is this debdiff ok http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1246/17:31
dholbachtuxmaniac: could it be you swapped the .dsc files in the debdiff call?17:32
tuxmaniacdholbach, yes :-)17:32
dholbachtuxmaniac: and you added two changelog entries17:32
dholbach<kongo> QUESTION: For a given software, is it a good idea to have separate debian and ubuntu Maintainer ?17:32
dholbachkongo: they are different people who maintain the package and work on it17:33
slytherin<afranke> QUESTION: for a packages that doesn't live neither in universe nor main, who do you subscribe?17:33
dholbachkongo: collaboration between the debian and the ubuntu maintainer (and others, including the upstream authors) is really important17:33
kongokongo, could be different could be same17:33
dholbachkongo: you generally set your name in the maintainer field if you say:17:33
dholbach * I care for this package17:33
dholbach * I make sure its bugs get fixed17:33
dholbachso it's really a strong commitment to have your name in there17:34
slytherinafranke: for packages in main/restricted ubuntu-main-sponsors. For packages in universe/multiverse ubuntu-universe-sponsors17:34
dholbachafranke: do you have examples in mind?17:34
dholbach(that are not in main/restricted/universe/multiverse)17:34
afrankeslytherin: my question was in fact about new packages that are not yet in repositories17:34
afrankea "needs-packaging" package17:34
kongodholbach, what i am thinking is to have ubuntu package exclusive of debian package. Imean ubuntu package is not derived from debian17:34
dholbachafranke: they all start in universe17:34
dholbachkongo: if you decide to not merge with the debian packaging that's a valid choice, but might be duplication of efforts17:35
afrankedholbach: thanks17:35
dholbachkongo: it's good to be in touch with others who have an interest in the package too and coordinatge together17:36
dholbachany more questions?17:36
dholbachI was just told that debtags information resides in /var/lib/debtags - does that help?17:36
kongodholbach, thanks,17:36
dholbachsavvas: I'll try to summon mvo, who knows more about it :)17:37
mvosavvas: debtags are currently downloaded to /var/lib/debtags17:37
mvosavvas: in debian it goes into the Packages file, but currently not in ubuntu17:38
dholbachsavvas: does that help?17:38
dholbachthanks a lot mvo17:38
* dholbach hugs mvo17:38
=== scentia is now known as scent
dholbachlet's have some applause for Michael 'rockstar' Vogt, the apt hero (among other things)17:38
LjL<evarlast> QUESTION: is it the same process if updating an ubuntu package? for example gutsy shipped with pkgx-1.2.3, but I want to submit pkgx-1.3.4. Do I send the debdiff the same way?17:39
* mvo blushes17:39
* mvo hugs dholb17:39
* mvo hugs dholbach17:39
dholbachevarlast: yes, it should be roughly what we did in round one of our session17:39
dholbachevarlast: to get it reviewed, you might want to use PPA (http://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart) or REVU (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU) and link that in the sponsoring bug17:40
* giftnudel applauds17:40
dholbachthere are quite a few different review processes in different teams, but subscribing the sponsoring team to bugs is the most generic and general one17:40
dholbachany more questions? about what we did in the sessions? about becoming a MOTU? about Ubuntu Development?17:41
LjL<evarlast> QUESTION: will there every be any automatic update detection in PPA?  PPA could be smart enough to see when someone has uploaded an update to something in Universe and automatically associate it with a bug, or create a new bug for the package.17:41
dholbachevarlast: I wrote ppaput for that (in the ubuntu-dev-tools package)17:41
dholbachevarlast: just check it's manpage to see how it works17:42
LjL<evarlast> QUESTION: so use ppaput instead of dput?17:42
dholbachevarlast: yes, it has a slightly different syntax, but essentially yes17:42
dholbachit will build a source package, file a bug, and upload to PPA17:42
dholbachevarlast: ppaput still has some caveats, but we'll iron them out17:43
dholbachany more questions? about what we did in the sessions? about becoming a MOTU? about Ubuntu Development? :-)17:43
dholbachdid you have any problems during the session (apart from 0.5.90 not building)? found something irksome?17:43
dholbach<amarillion> QUESTION: I've tried packaging software written in java, but pbuilder won't let me use sun-java5-bin as a dependency. What is there to be done about that?17:44
dholbachamarillion: did you add multiverse to the pbuilder sources?17:44
dholbachamarillion: it should be explained how to do that in http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto17:44
dholbach<slytherin> QUESTION: Following the question raised by evarlast please provide explaination about UVFE and SRU17:44
Hobbseedholbach: pbuilder will die, as sun-java5-bin requires a licence agreement, doesnt it?17:44
amarillionthe problem is that sun-java5-bin can't be installed automatically because it asks for confirmation of the java license17:45
dholbachHobbsee: good point17:45
dholbachamarillion: maybe ask doko about that or ask how to workaround that on ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com17:45
dholbachslytherin: I explained UVFe before, it stands for upstream version freeze exception17:45
Riddellamarillion: use icedtea17:45
amarillionRiddell, I've tried but that crashes :(17:46
dholbachslytherin: SRU means Stable Release Update and it requires to follow the process on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates17:46
dholbachthis process is necessary to get more testing for uploads that are intended to go to gutsy-updates for example17:46
dholbachwhich go out to stable systems17:46
dholbach<hydrogen> QUESTION: wheres the free ice cream?17:46
slytherindholbach: I know a bit about it. I thought evarlast was interested in filing bugs for new upstream version of a package for stable release. That is why I brought up this.17:46
Riddellamarillion: right.  the sysadmins are aware of the sun-java issue, so we can just hope it gets fixed soon (for your own pbuilder though, you can pre-seed debconf)17:46
dholbachhydrogen: good question - if you find out: let me know :)17:47
LjL<afranke> QUESTION: what should I do if I want to package two versions of a package and want both to be included in universe (for instance for compatibility reasons)17:47
dholbachafranke: you will need to rename the source packages and binary packages17:47
dholbachafranke: for example   pingus    and    pingus-snapshot   (if you want to package an upstream snapshot)17:47
dholbachany more questions?17:48
dholbachwho of you ponders becoming a MOTU now? :-)17:48
dholbachwho of you is interested in joining the crew? :)17:48
* slytherin Is interested.17:48
* afranke will need a bit of practice :)17:48
hydrogenoh, i mastered the universe a long time ago17:48
LjL<savvas> QUESTION: I may have missed it, but where is the new 'fixed' package supposed to be uploaded/sent?17:49
hydrogenI've moved on to bigger and better things17:49
hydrogensuch as trying to get free desert17:49
dholbachslytherin, afranke, hydrogen: way to go! :-)17:49
dholbachsavvas: the example we did?17:49
* tuxmaniac wil lbecome a MOTU for sure17:49
tuxmaniacwork hard tuxmaniac work hard!17:49
* dholbach hugs tuxmaniac17:49
nrpil                                                              â”‚17:49
nrpil││  â””─ [o] jaosorg                â”‚                                                                          â”‚17:49
amarillionI'm interested in becoming MOTU too17:49
dholbachthat's the spirit17:49
kart_tuxmaniac, best luck!17:49
savvasdholbach: does it matter? if it's minor/major change in the package it matters where it will be sent/uploaded?17:49
dholbachsavvas: all uploads you intend to get sponsored follow http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess17:50
LjL<amarillion> QUESTION: is the size of the orig.tar.gz limiting? I've seen a large number of dependant libraries being included (again for a java package) which is unecessary on a linux system.17:50
dholbachyou'll make the debdiff available or link to the source package (.diff.gz .orig.tar.gz .dsc)17:50
savvasok ty :)17:51
dholbachamarillion: no it's not, openoffice for example has a source that's several hundred megabytes big :)17:51
dholbachamarillion: we try to re-use components which are already packaged17:51
LjL<scorpioxy> QUESTION: What can i do if fixing a bug in one package requires an update of another dependant package, do i package both as separate ones?17:52
dholbachamarillion: in some cases that's unfortunately not possible and upstream authors should be talked to17:52
amarillionIn this case, I've got a package that is 60Mb, of which contains a large number of jar files17:52
dholbachscorpioxy: yes and you mention that both review bugs are dependant on each other17:52
dholbachamarillion: we prefer things that build from source17:52
dholbachamarillion: so you'd try to package them separately all building form source17:53
LjL<slytherin> QUESTION: For the java issue, can we use --save-after-login option and manually install java package inside chroot?17:53
dholbachamarillion: I know that's not easy sometimes in the case of java :-/17:53
slytherinamarillion: Check if those jar files are available in Ubuntu and manage build dependencies accordingly.17:53
amarillionyeah, after trying this a few times I've got the feeling that java is f-ed up with regards to packaging17:53
hydrogenyour capslock button must have the exclamation point to the left of it!17:53
livingdaylighti wanted to know how i can add Nautilus to my panel?17:53
dholbachamarillion: you might want to talk to doko and people on the ubuntu-java mailing list17:54
amarillionWill do, thanks17:54
slytherinlivingdaylight: This is not a support channel. Please join #ubuntu17:54
dholbachslytherin: what is your save-after-login question about?17:54
slytherindholbach: As in, sudo pbuilder login --save-after-login and then install sun-java.17:55
dholbachahhh ok, that might work - I never actually tried it17:55
dholbachok, let's close the session17:55
dholbachthanks all for coming17:55
dholbachthanks for your enthusiasm and your questions17:55
dholbachand I hope to all see you on the motu mailing lists and #ubuntu-motu, becoming MOTUs soon17:55
dholbachcheck out: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU to get involved17:56
* Hobbsee warns *anyone* about to join ubuntu-universe-sponsors to read the entire description, before attempting to join.17:56
* afranke hugs the rocking dholbach for his session17:56
* dholbach hugs afranke back - thanks :-)17:56
=== LjL changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Next session: Automated testing - Lars Wirzenius & Henrik Omma
* savvas claps :)17:56
LjLthank you dholbach17:56
kongothanks dholbach17:56
dholbachthanks LjL and popey - you guys ROCK17:56
* dholbach hugs y'all17:56
scorpioxythanks dholbach17:56
Riddellslytherin: yes it'll work, but it'll still get stuck in the ubuntu build servers so best to use icedtea if you can17:57
amarillionthanks dholbach17:57
hydrogenI didn't get to ask my inflamatory question!17:57
hydrogen(why not k3b, its obviously much better)17:57
kongowhen is the next session ? testing one17:57
dholbachhydrogen: first ice cream, then inflamatory questions? :)17:57
slytherinRiddell: Ok. Thanks.17:57
* dholbach hugs hydrogen17:57
dholbachsee you guys around!17:57
PriceChild*wonders if lars or heno are around?*17:58
liwI'm here17:59
liwI'm Lars :)17:59
liwshall we start?18:01
henowelcome to a session on automated testing18:01
=== LjL changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Current: Automated testing - Lars Wirzenius & Henrik Omma
henoliw: please go ahead18:02
liwall right, I've not done one of these before, so please tell me if I'm doing something wrong18:02
hydrogensaying that is doing something wrong ;p18:02
* hydrogen be's quiet18:02
liwWe intend to automate some of the quality assurance work for Hardy. That's because testing everything manually multiple times is very tedious and uses up a lot of energy that could be used for other things. It also slows down development and bug fixing, since the feedback that something works or doesn't work can take weeks or months18:03
liwThere are several parts for this:18:03
liw* installation testing of ISO images, using pre-seeding18:03
liw* upgrade tests of installed systems, using piuparts and vlosuts and other tools18:03
liw* tests if installed systems, using autopkgtest, and also of GUI programs probably using Accerciser and Macaroon18:03
liwMore stuff may come, later, once we've gotten this to work.18:03
liwSome of that has been going on already, but not terribly well organized18:04
liwOnce the initial infrastructure starts working, we hope to involve the entire Ubuntu development community in defining and implementing tests.18:04
=== tikal26 is now known as tikal26|
liwthat's my introduction -- it's a lot of things quickly, and a lot of details are missing, but I'm now open for questions18:05
henowith this we hope to find problems early so that bugs can be worked on as they appear18:05
liwheno, if you have things to say, now's the time18:05
henoI'll just give the link to the testing pages https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing18:06
liwyes, definitely find bugs as early as possible, and possibly before they're uploaded, even18:06
liwI have some links, too, that might be useful: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam18:07
henoliw: <ttread_3> QUESTION: Can you explain what 'pre-seeding' is?18:07
liwpre-seeding is the procedure where the installer (the text-mode one or the gui one, they use the same backend) is given the answers a user would normally give from the keyboard/mouse so that they're read from a file instead18:08
liwthis way the entire installation process can be automated18:08
henoby using that we can test all the installer backend stuff quite easily on a range of hardware18:09
liwI don't seem to have a handy link to explain that in detail right now18:09
henobut we don't test the clicking of buttons in the installer gui18:09
liwheno, right, and also test the same things repeatedly -- the same tests every time there's a new ISO18:10
henothat will come later using the ATK framework and tools like dogtail18:10
henoliw: <hydrogen> QUESTION: could you elaborate a bit on how you plan to do this feasibly?  especially wrt hardware testing18:10
liwthe gui installer will basically be installed in two halves: the backend and actual installation stuff with pre-seeding, and the user interface with dogtail/accerciser/macaroon18:10
liwah yes, hardware testing18:11
heno(as you can tell we are still evaluating which tools to use)18:11
liwI plan on doing the bulk of the ISO testing in emulators, so not with real hardware18:11
liwthat of course doens't test anything that depends on actual hardware18:12
liwso for actual hardware testing we need people to still do installation testing on real hardware18:12
liwbut I hope to make that partially automated as well18:12
hydrogendo you have any ideas (or are you working on any) to increase the range of testers?18:12
PriceChildhydrogen, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please18:13
liwI'll answer hydrogen's question now, but please relay questions via -chat in the future18:13
liwI don't have concrete plans for increasing the range of testers, except that I want to make testing more fun18:13
liwI did quite a number of test installations of gutsy beta and rc and final isos, and it was quite boring, so I want to make it a more pleasant experience18:14
henoWe will also make test reporting easier with the QA website https://qa.stgraber.org/18:14
liwand by fun I mean less tedious -- I don't intend to add nethack to the ISOs for testers to play during the test18:15
henowe can semi-automate some of the testing and reporting; sun a single command to test openoffice and upload the results, say18:15
henorun even18:15
liwless tedious, more automated --- and perhaps more communal: get more people interact with each other during the test phases, perhaps18:16
liwnext question, please18:16
LjL<begert__> QUESTION: are there plans for releasing a "test kit" that users can run so that results can be gathered on a wide variety of system configurations?18:16
liwyes, something like that will be needed18:17
henoWe'd like to do that, but don't have any detailed plans18:17
PriceChild<scorpioxy> QUESTION: how do you plan on testing problems with X and the graphics drivers. Especially problems such as black screen on bootup, wrong refresh rates and so on18:17
henoit would be good to combine it with the hw-test program18:17
liwsomething I'd like to explore is a "tester live cd", which allows you to test lots of things (automatically), without requiring you to touch the hard disk18:18
begert__thank you18:18
liwI'm done with begert's question, so unless heno has something to say, I'll continue with scorpioxy's18:18
henoOn the last question: that will have to be done wit real HW18:19
henothough we can add some automation18:19
liwtesting problems with X and graphics drivers (and wireless etc) does need to happen on real hardware... what heno said18:19
liwand that's one part especially where Ubuntu needs lots of volunteers, and where we need to make it especially easy and fun to participate18:20
liwso that people with a free evening and a computer can do something real and useful, preferably without having to re-install their system afterwards18:20
liwnext question18:20
PriceChild<seer-as-shubhu> QUESTION: once you do testing on emulators why is there need for hardware testing?18:20
henowe also need to keep track of what hardware is being used for the testing18:20
henoanswered by the previous question :)18:21
liwemulators don't emulate all hardware, and what they do emulate, they don't emulate perfectly, so testing on real hardware is still reqwuired18:21
liwnext question18:21
PriceChild<ttread_3> QUESTION: Continuing on the pre-seeding, is it in the form of a special ISO that boots to the live CD and then directly to installation with programmed responses?  Or some other way external to the ISO?18:21
liwthat's one of the details I don't know about in Ubuntu -- in Debian it's part of the standard installer18:21
liwyou give a special boot command line argument (but the Ubuntu gui installer can ask for a pre-seed url)18:22
liwif we do make a tester live cd, we can make that always ask for a pre-seed, of course18:22
liwbut basically the pre-seed file is (or can be) external to the iso18:22
liwnext question18:22
PriceChild<dorto> QUESTION: Which is the most basic automated test method that could be used to test Ubuntu Hardy Tribe/milestone releases?18:22
henousing a custom ISO would defeat the purpose of testing candidate ISOs, so we won't be doing that18:23
liwheno, right, but a custom ISO might be useful for things like hardware testing, to verify that bugs in drivers have indeed been fixed; but this is all up in the air for now18:23
henoright, up for discussion at UDS18:24
liwthe most basic automated test method would be to use pre-seeding to drive an installation onto a computer, or one of the upgrade testing tools to test upgrades from gutsy to hardy18:24
liwthat much will certainly be doable fairly quickly after UDS and other meetings are over18:25
liwthings like automated testing of gui programs using the ATK layer are going to require a bit more time and effort to set up18:25
liwnext question18:25
PriceChild<radoe> QUESTION: pre-seeding is just one part to test if the installer just works, any plans for a automated test if it did its job right?18:25
liwpart of the testing is validating that the result is correct, that is a very good point18:26
liwI haven't yet thought much about how we'll do that on real hardware, in emulators it will be done using the test harness18:26
Myrttiliw: _o/18:27
liwnext question18:28
PriceChild<giftnudel> QUESTION: Will there be an easy way for users to write their own tests? Like a easy-to-use test framework?18:28
liwthat is the goal18:29
liwin fact I would like to see all tests written by users :)18:29
henoaccerciser and macaroon are tools that help you record tests18:29
henothey may need some adjusting after that though18:29
liwfor the gui testing, for example, we have a vision of a "recording tool", where the user can make a new test by pressing a "start recording" button, then do some things, and then press "end recording", and put the resulting test script onto a website or something18:29
heno(it's all python scripts)18:30
giftnudelthat answers the question, thanks.18:30
liwin similar ways for, say, server testing: someone will need to write tests (perhaps simple shell or python scripts) to test that a web server works before and after, that a database still returns the right data after an upgrade, and so on18:31
liwnext question then, please18:31
LjL<seer-as-shubhu> QUESTION:liw said "testing problems with X and graphics drivers (and wireless etc) does need to happen on real hardware"  but isn't hardware is required for testing ? then how do you catgorize which needs hardware and which doesnt?18:31
liwbasically for each test you have to make a decision about whether it needs real hardware or whether it can be run in an emulator18:32
liwthat needs to be an informed decision by a human, I'm afraid, perhaps aided by some automated heuristics18:32
liwI'd like to see as much as possible be testable in emulators, since emulator testing can be automated, and automation is not just fun and pleasant, it also gives faster turnaround time and thus speeds up development :)18:33
LjL<Rudd-X> QUESTION: in case of catastrophic test failures on the (admittedly good) scenario of a live CD with testing, how will you detect a test that failed midway?  May I suggest that you use the swap partitions on the hard disk if one is available?18:33
liwI don't yet know the answer to that question, sorry18:34
liwthe suggestion of using swap partitions is a good one18:34
liwnext question18:34
LjL<LjL> QUESTION: Do you have any plans to automate testing of successful installation and removal of main/universe packages?  I understand that testing for all possible 'postinst' failure scenarios (say) is likely NP-complete, but perhaps you have any tricks in mind to test in the most common scenarios?18:34
liwthe piuparts tool tests installation, upgrading, and removal of packages18:35
liwif I have time, I intend to test every package in Ubuntu with piuparts18:36
heno*cough* which liw wrote *cough*18:36
liwboth on bare-bones systems, and in a few carefully chosen representative systems18:36
savvasdid they say anything about graphics card / sound cards testing?18:36
liwnext question18:37
LjLliw: there is none at the moment18:37
LjL<radoe> QUESTION: Wouldn't it be nice to have the upcoming test framework as an independent (yet optional) part of final releases? So one can write tests and verify large rollouts quickly. Not sure if this is the right thing for GUI tasks, but all "scriptable" tests would be nice.18:37
liwthat would definitely be nice18:37
liwno, I take that back18:37
liwit would be AWESOME and IT WOULD ROCK THE WORLD18:38
liwbut the testing stuff takes space, and the CD is pretty full already18:38
henoyep, it's clearly the way to go18:38
henomost of the framework is on the CD already18:38
henoincluding ATK and python18:39
henojust need to add some scripts18:39
liwright, so hopefully we can fit all the testing stuff by only removing one background image18:39
liwor something like that O:-)18:39
LjL<Rudd-X> QUESTION: what's the projected/expected/target size of the testing payload?18:40
henowhich is in itself highly controversial, just ask kwwii :)18:40
liwI have as yet no idea how the testing payload will be18:40
liwfor example, one Accercises/dogtail script is pretty small, but if have/get good coverage, there's going to be lots and lots of them18:40
liwand some of them may need helper files, such as data for the test18:41
henoand we may need sample test data like PDFs and mp3 files18:41
henothough they could be downloaded during the test18:41
liwobviously we should use background images as test data...18:42
liwnext question?18:42
LjL<chrisle> QUESTION: Is there a tool that checks for correct desktop file while building packages (for gnome and kde menus)?18:42
liwI don't know of such a tool -- what would it check for?18:42
chrisleto create one in the correct place18:44
Rudd-Xdesktop file correctness?18:44
liwchrisle, I think the lintian and linda tools might do that, and if not, writing new tests for them to do that seems like a reasonable thing to do18:45
liwlintian and linda are "static checkers", meaning they check the package without running any files, which is fast and secure18:45
liwnext question18:45
LjL<desertc> QUESTION: Is there much collaboration between other Linux distributions, as you develop your automated tests?18:45
chrisleyes because a lot debs are only rebuild because of missing desktop files18:45
liwI don't think there's much collaboration right now, but it is our intention to contribute any tests specific to a program to upstream18:45
liwand I'd like to see Debian share any installation and other tests that we make for Ubuntu, to the extent they're suitable for Debian18:46
liwdefinitely most of the testing infrastructure will be useful for Debian, and perhaps other Linux distros18:46
henoI have spoken with Redhat and Novell people about this, but no concrete work has been done yet18:46
henoSun and Mozilla are also doing good work on automated testing18:47
liwaye, as distros and individual software projects grow in size, everyone is seeing the benefits of automated testing18:48
* liw thinks automated testing is luverly18:48
liwnext question?18:48
LjL<savvas> QUESTION: What are the plans for the next (hardy) long term support release? what are you going to test mostly of hardware?18:48
liwwe don't have very concrete plans yet, I think, those will be formulated during UDS18:49
liwthat is, in the next couple of weeks18:49
LjL<radoe> QUESTION: blueprint planning a testing framework has yet to be started?18:49
liwI think that's correct, it's still waiting for UDS to be started; heno, is that right?18:50
henoe.g. https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/desktop-automated-tests18:50
LjL<ian_brasil> Question: how much are you integrating autotest into the Ubuntu environment and do you have any plans to write a web front end to this if so?18:51
liwall test results should be reported on public web sites, and for things that are clearly bugs, reports should be filed on launchpad, and the qa.stgraber.org site will be extended to co-ordinate testing18:52
liwexactly how depends on what turns out to be useful, I expect18:52
liwnext question18:53
LjL<nealmcb> QUESTION: Interoperation with Active Directory infrastructures is important for our users.  But many testers don't have access to an AD site.  Also, users may want to try out an AD howto on a known-good configuration if they are having problems with their local AD.  Are there any AD test sites with public ids and passwords that testers and/or users can test against?18:53
liwI don't know anything about Active Directory, so I must answer "I don't know", sorry18:53
liwif such things are technically feasible, and useful, then perhaps they can be arranged18:54
liwnext question18:54
LjL<ttread_3> QUESTION: Is automated testing being developed on all the desktops - Kubuntu and Xubuntu included?18:54
henothere is a server team spec to improve compatability with Windows18:54
liwthe ATK framework is specific to GTK, and if Xubuntu includes it, then the testing frameworks should work on that, too18:54
henoKubuntu is tricky because it lacks a working access framwork like ATK18:55
liwit might not be possible to support Kubuntu with this, directly, but perhaps KDE will get a similar framework later, and then we'll extend the testing framework to support KDE as well18:55
henomost gtk apps should work (most of Xubuntu)18:55
LjL<desertc> QUESTION: Are hardware vendors included in the "big picture"?  Vendors like System76 and, of course, Dell provide an enormous hardware base with standard configurations.  Are there special ways they can get involved with the process of automated testing of future releases, since they have so much at stake with their customers?18:56
henoas indeed promised for KDE418:56
henowe have a hw certification program for such partners18:56
liwheno, we do? oh dear, I was hoping I could convince them to send me one of each of their hardware models :)18:57
henowhere we would perform testing for them and commit to fixing problems18:57
liwthat sounds very good to me18:57
henoliw: you can still try :)18:57
liwI think we're running out of time in about 100 seconds18:58
LjL<radoe> QUESTION: how will the development of all this be coordinated?18:58
henoon #ubuntu-testing in weekly QA team meetings18:58
henowe're also setting up a mailing list18:58
liwdefinitely in public, with full opportunity for anyone interested in joining18:59
henook, thanks everyone!18:59
henogreat questions!18:59
LjLthank you heno and liw18:59
liwthanks indeed -- it's nice to know I'm not the only one interested in testing the heck out of Ubuntu before the next release19:00
=== LjL changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Next session: Launchpad Q&A - Kiko
wnorrixi am19:00
=== LjL changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Current session: Launchpad Q&A - Kiko
begert__its a very interesting topic19:01
kikoI'm here, and you are here19:02
henoI'm not19:02
kikoso let's start out some Launchpad QA19:02
LjLkiko (Christian Reis) will now hold a questions and answers session about Launchpad19:02
kikopost your questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat and I'll take a go at giving a good answer.19:03
kiko<nealmcb> QUESTION: We've seen some tantalizing hints of OpenID working in the wild with launchpad as a provider.  What are the plans going forward?  We're looking forward to reducing the need for multiple logins for ubuntu activists.19:03
kikonealmcb, it's true, and you're right :)19:03
kikonealmcb, we put in a lot of effort this cycle into producing an OpenID implementation, and it's now actually being used for one partner site (the Ubuntu shop -- http://shop.ubuntu.com/)19:03
nealmcb(I'm particularly interested in use by locos)19:04
kikonealmcb, there are some additional changes we're working on that will make life better for loco sites -- an extension to OpenID that lets you ask if a user is in a certain group.19:04
kikonealmcb, this is all very new and we're still sorting out policies, but expect more documentation about this by the end of the year19:04
kikonealmcb, it currently "works" and if you try and log in to the shop you'll see you're redirected to login.launchpad.net19:05
kiko(it's one of the topics up for discussion in next week's LP team lead meeting, btw)19:06
kiko<dorto> QUESTION: Is there any plan to make one Launchpad user account work across all the Ubuntu websites? (say Ubuntu Forums)19:08
kikothe answer is the same as above -- yes, via OpenID we now have infrastructure to do this properly (instead of via that horrible hack that is used to authenticate Ubuntu wiki users)19:08
kikoI am in a meeting on the topic of forum integration at UDS, apparently :)19:09
kiko<javamaniac> QUESTION: Does LP will have an public api to gather data from him and send as well? maybe a SOAP or ReST API19:09
kikocurrently, we have a very skinny set of public APIs19:09
kikoI'll give three exhibits19:09
kikoa) An XMLRPC interface for posting bugs at https://help.launchpad.net/MaloneXMLRPC19:10
kikob) A set of RDF exports for products and teams and people: https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-bugs/+rdf  -  https://edge.launchpad.net/launchpad/+rdf -- https://edge.launchpad.net/~kiko/+rdf19:11
kikoc) A text rendering of bug data: https://edge.launchpad.net/bugs/1/+text19:12
kikothese were mostly hacked up jobs that solved specific problems at the time19:12
kikothis cycle we have a team put together to focus on two related subjects: Public APIs and feeds19:12
kikothere are some tricky bits to handle, including authentication (since you want to be able to actually let people change things through this API, you need to consider authentications and sessions)19:13
kikowe will have publically visible results early next year19:13
kikoinfrastructure is being deployed in this cycle and we should have a few examples popping up by December19:14
kikoI don't know a lot of specifics about what form the APIs will take -- if it will be REST or otherwise -- but I will post about it.19:14
kiko(when I know more :)19:15
kiko<dorto> QUESTION: Any update on whether/when Launchpad source code will be released to general public? Is it currently given to _anyone_ who asks for it(under restricted license)?19:21
shane_QUESTION: I have an Acer laptop on which suspend worked fine in Dapper and Edgy. But since Edgy suspend has been broken and during the 'tribe' phases of Gutsy I did test it and submitted a bug report on Launchpad... but as of Tribe 5 it still didnt work. Why do we have this regression that is seemingly hard to fix?19:21
LjLshane_: A session is in progress, please only ask related questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat19:22
dortoshane_: this is not a support channel. Try #ubuntu19:22
kikoshane_, ANSWER: visit answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu19:22
kikoThere has actually been a lot of discussion about OSSing LP internally as of late, but still no concrete decision in terms of dates and time19:22
shane_oops that was meant for -chat sorry..19:22
kikoit is a difficult decision for many of the stakeholders19:22
kikoso no promises, just allusions to possibilities; sorry.19:23
kiko<javamaniac> QUESTION: Does exist some way for a non-canonical staff to implement some LP blueprint?19:23
kikoit depends. that question might be asking if non-canonical staff can work on Launchpad code; the answer to that is no -- to me "not yet", but right now, "no".19:24
kikothere are some bits of work that are external to launchpad that /could/ be worked on19:24
kikoone example is cscvs, which is used for syncing other repositories into bzr branches19:26
kikocscvs /is/ released as free software, and there are quite a few bugs related to it19:26
kikohowever, there has been no community interaction or interest to date (I wonder why <wink>)19:26
kikoanother example is in integration with other bugtrackers; we're currently using screen-scraping and all sorts of unorthodox methods to pull data from certain bug trackers19:27
kikoit would be really cool if we did get contributors to produce machine-readable exports of bug data in these trackers19:27
kikoMantis is one such tracker19:28
kikofor cscvs, see https://edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-cscvs19:28
kikoif you are interested in working on bug tracker features, talk to me and I'll get you talking to an interested engineer19:28
=== pacoymayca is now known as martenz
kiko<wnorrix_> QUESTION: Is launchpad.net trying to replace sourceforget.net ?19:29
kikoI'm not familiar with sourceforget.net. :)19:29
kikothe real answer is: not exactly, but we do provide projects with similar services19:29
wnorrix_typo.. sourceforge.net19:29
kikowe are a project hosting solution19:30
kikowe do provide source control, bug hosting, question tracking19:31
kikowe're not exactly a sourceforge match, of course19:31
kikoso the answer is it depends on what your project needs.19:31
kiko(if all it needs is a todo list on windows then Launchpad is trying to replace notepad.exe too ;-)19:32
=== javamaniac_ is now known as javamaniac
kiko<dorto> QUESTION: Are projects completely unrelated to Ubuntu(even by long shot) welcome to be hosted on Launchpad? Would you rate it to be on par with Sourforge/Savannah? (at least bazaar is too superior)19:33
kikowow, good question.19:33
=== wnorrix_ is now known as wnorrix
kikothe answer is a very strong YES19:33
kikowe are thrilled to host your project on Launchpad19:33
kikoand we do host many many projects that are unrelated to Ubuntu19:33
Myrttiexaile <319:34
kikoone good example is launchpad.net/zope3 ; another is launchpad.net/exaile :)19:34
kikoin fact, Launchpad is actually run quite separately to Ubuntu19:34
kiko(which does cause some exasperation to the Ubuntu developers at times)19:34
kikoour missing is to provide a general open source hosting facility19:34
kikosupporting Ubuntu is mostly useful within that mission in that distributions are great magnets for users, bugs and code. ;)19:35
kiko<dorto> kiko: that's great to hear. QUESTION: Which is the best source to read to get started with project hosting on Launchpad? All I find are unfinished blueprints.19:39
kikodorto, yes! https://help.launchpad.net/FeatureHighlights19:39
kikodorto, also, https://edge.launchpad.net/+about19:40
kikotell me if you think those aren't good enough starting points19:41
kikoand I'll produce a document19:41
kiko<nealmcb> QUESTION: What is a good structure for a small code development team like loco-django.  Just use one team for simplicity?  Have an overall team for users and a -dev team to own the code?  When is a -bugs team useful, in practice?  Is there a set of best practices or recipies out there?19:41
kikookay, /this/ is a great question.19:41
kikothe answer is (of course) it depends on what you want.19:42
kikoif your team is really small -- say 2 or 3 people -- then using a single team makes things easier19:42
kikowhy would you want to split things up? there are basically two reasons.19:42
kikoa) trust. there are certain tasks you may want to restrict to a certain group of users. in this situation, you might want to use a separate team for core versus community, or something like that.19:43
kikofor instance, product drivers can approve nominated bugs and blueprints.19:43
kikob) email. because some roles are actually "announcement roles", in the sense that we notify them through email on certain events, it is sometimes useful to split teams up to provide a high-level separation.19:44
kikothe bug and security contacts are the most obvious cases. bug contacts get emailed on all traffic on bugs for your project. security contacts get emailed on all traffic related to bugs that are security-related in your project.19:45
kikothere are valid reasons why you might not want everybody in the development team to receive all security-related email.19:45
kikoof course, you can use a team or an individual in any of these roles19:45
kikoso a security contact can very well be an individual19:46
kikoand if you don't want all of your team members to receive all bugmail, you can use a separate -qa or -bugs team19:46
kiko(it's understandable why Ubuntu does it given bug volume, of course :)19:46
kiko<samgee> QUESTION: Is it possible to work on (libre) cscvs without using (non-libre) Launchpad?19:47
kikosamgee, sure. cscvs is free software -- launchpad just uses it internally.19:47
kikosamgee, it was released with the intention that some community members could help get the import service working better -- but nothing has happened so far. wanna help that change? :)19:47
samgeeyeah, but what about filing bugs and such?19:48
kiko<zeth> QUESTION You said "There has actually been a lot of discussion about OSSing LP internally" - what parts of LP are there that are not open source yet that might be useful to the wider world?19:48
kikosamgee, bugs are filed against cscvs normally -- have you seen https://edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-cscvs/+bugs ?19:48
kikosamgee, and the code is available at https://code.edge.launchpad.net/launchpad-cscvs/19:49
kikosee https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~launchpad/launchpad-cscvs/rocketfuel19:49
kikozeth, that's actually a good question. OSS launchpad would be useful to allow you to fix bugs in the service which affect you, and would also allow you to deploy a version of launchpad yourself.19:49
kikothe former makes sense, though you would still theoretically depend on our review and release process to get the code accepted (as with any other OSS project)19:50
kikothe latter makes less sense, since we designed Launchpad to provide a service so you didn't have to run a copy yourself19:50
kikoin a way it would be nonsensical to run your own copy of Launchpad and not benefit from having access to other project's code, bugs, translations, etc.19:50
kiko<Seveas> QUESTION: is it possible for a company to use a private, internally hosted, instance of launchpad as project management tool? And if so, who should I contact for getting a pricing quote on that?19:52
kikoSeveas, it's a possibility, though not currently possible, IYKWIM. it /is/ possible to use the service privately (i.e. your data is kept safely with us, but not disclosed to the public by default, and you control disclosure) you should contact statik (elliot@canonical.com) to request pricing for this.19:54
kiko<zeth> QUESTION Thanks kiki, but I am more wondering if there are there any parts left that are like Storm, i.e. that would be useful to other types of web application that are not project hosting services19:54
kikothere is /one/ piece of web application infrastructure that we will release, but it's currently hard to split out so it hasn't been done yet.19:54
kikoit's the zope3-based platform upon which LP is based.19:55
kikotalk to flacoste about that if you are interested -- it's a short-term project to get it released.19:55
kikownorrix, you mentioned a PPA tutorial.19:55
kikownorrix, I'd suggest you check out https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart first19:56
kiko<samgee> I'm kind of a free software purist, so I want to avoid using non-free software, even if it is to help a great project like Ubuntu. So I really want Launchpad to become free software. Helping with cscvs looks like a good way to do that. I could write the code without Launchpad, but I would have to use Launchpad for everything else (checking in, bugs, whatever). Is there a way around that?19:57
kikoif you wanted to, you could email patches to david allouche for inclusion19:57
kikoit would be weird to not want to use the bug tracker or bzr hosting19:57
kikobut I guess if you refuse to use google search then that would be a consistent position.19:58
Seveass/google search/pretty much every website :)/19:59
=== [3]robc4 is now known as robc4
kikosamgee, that's ddaa@canonical.com -- David Allouche, maintainer of cscvs.19:59
kiko<dorto> QUESTION : Is there a specific reason why help.launchpad.net isn't linked to from Launchpad's home page? Am I missing something?20:01
kikodorto, I guess it's a bug. I'll fix it and will include it in tomorrow's rollout. :)20:01
* kiko fishes for any last questions20:03
kikothanks to everybody20:06
kikoenjoy the waves20:06
popeythanks kiko, nice one20:06
=== PriceChild changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Current session: Edubuntu - Oliver Grawert
=== LjL changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Next session (should begin shortly): Edubuntu - Oliver Grawert
LaserJockHello everybody!20:35
LaserJockIt seems our illustrious leader Oliver couldn't make it today20:35
LaserJockso until or unless he shows up you're stuck with me20:35
LaserJockMy name is Jordan Mantha and I'm an Ubuntu Core Developer20:36
LaserJockI mostly work with Edubuntu20:36
=== LjL changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Current session: Edubuntu - Jordan Mantha (Oliver Grawert is unavailable)
jesguibuenas tardes20:36
LaserJockas this is spur-of-the-moment I'll give you a brief intro to Edubuntu20:36
jesguisaludos a todos20:36
LaserJockand then we can go to any questions20:37
PriceChild!es > jesgui (see pm from ubotu)20:37
LjLjesgui: saludos, por favor hable en #ubuntu-classroom-chat no aqui20:37
LaserJockFirst of all, Edubuntu is a derivative or "flavor" of Ubuntu geared specifically toward educational settings20:37
alfermpthank for the tip jesgui20:37
LaserJockit is a fairly small team20:38
LaserJockbut we've managed to produce a top-notch education distribution20:38
LaserJockEdubuntu started out as an OS for children20:39
LaserJockfocusing around a playful theme and kid-friendly applications20:39
LaserJockit has since grown into a full-fledged educational operating system20:39
LaserJockincluding the latest in LTSP (Linux Terminal Server Project)20:40
LaserJockeducational applications for a wide range of educational settings20:40
LaserJockok, so I'll take some questions20:40
LaserJockQUESTION: can you sum up main differences from standard ubuntu installation to edubuntu ?20:41
LaserJockthat is indeed a common question20:41
LaserJockthe most prominent technical difference is that the Edubuntu Classroom Server CD comes with LTSP20:42
LaserJockand will do an automatic setup where possible20:42
LaserJockwe try to keep the basic desktop applications as close as possible to Ubuntu20:42
LaserJockso you can think of Edubuntu as Ubuntu + LTSP + educational apps + different artwork20:43
LaserJockin the future we may develop the differences more20:43
LaserJockwhich may be very exciting for people interested in Linux in education20:44
LaserJockQUESTION: Are there any plans to adapt the thin-client model for businesses to use?20:44
LaserJockyes indeed20:44
LaserJockthe Ubuntu server team will be dealing a lot with LTSP for the next release20:44
LaserJockwe need better support of network authentication, things like easy LDAP and SMB setup20:45
LaserJockQUESTION: In the vein of Linux taking over the world by influencing youth, does the Edubuntu project  have any plans for marketing (for lack of a better word) Edubuntu to schools?20:45
LaserJockof course20:45
LaserJockgetting Edubuntu into school systems is a major goal20:46
LaserJockwe'd love to help students, teachers, and school administrators in "converting" their schools to Edubuntu20:47
LaserJockthe edubuntu.org site has some info on that20:47
LaserJockQUESTION: Is edubuntu also meant for a first contact with unix like operating systems, or more of a  general education platform?20:47
LaserJockI would say general education platform20:48
LaserJockobviously it's also a great platform to learn unix-like OSs20:48
LaserJockbut we'd like to include things like moodle and various teaching tools20:48
LaserJockQUESTION: since ubuntu is a newer product, what suggestions do you have for convincing network admins  that edubuntu is just as reliable (if not more so) than standbys like suse?20:49
LaserJockI would point a lot a Debian, actually20:49
LaserJockEdubuntu and Ubuntu are built on a solid Debian base20:50
LaserJockand Debian has a long and solid histry as a great server OS20:50
LaserJockI would also point to existing schools that are using Edubuntu successfully20:50
LaserJockQUESTION: With tablet and solidstate computers becoming popular in classrooms, because they are tough and  cheap, is Edubuntu looking at incorporating some of the features of these hardware  architectures, specifically designed for schools?  The Asus Eee computer looks like it is going  to be especially popular, as is the One Laptop Per Child.20:51
LaserJockmusashi1: of schools?20:51
LaserJockI don't have a handy list on me20:51
LaserJockbut the edubuntu-users list would give you a great place to look/ask20:51
LaserJockyou can find edubuntu-users on lists.ubuntu.com20:52
LaserJockEdubuntu is looking towards projects like OLPC and Intel's ClassmatePC project20:52
LaserJockI've been working on the Intel machine lately just seeing how things would work with *buntu on it20:52
LaserJockQUESTION: Does Edubuntu have special ties with Ubuntu Server, do you think there will ever develop a  Edubuntu Teachers' Edition or something similar?20:53
LaserJockI don't think anything special other than we have a common interest in server infrastructure20:53
LaserJockwe're going to be working with the server team on LTSP and network authentication as I said before20:54
LaserJockEdubuntu is indeed a Teachers' Edition20:54
LaserJockwe're just needing to work more on adding good software for it20:54
LaserJockQUESTION: Should we be evanglizing Edubuntu as a Child's dekstop to parents? or is more a school setting?20:54
nixternaldon't forget the need for devs too LaserJock20:54
LaserJockI think it could definately be both20:55
LaserJocknixternal: yes, thanks20:55
LaserJockright now I would say Edubuntu is only limited by the available hands20:55
LaserJockwe have lots of great ideas20:55
* nixternal also makes a quick note to non-devs that there is plenty of documentation work for Edubuntu as well20:55
LaserJockthe community is great20:55
LaserJockbut we need hands to do the work20:55
LaserJockEdubuntu can defiantely be suitable for a child's desktop20:56
LaserJocksome people have used it down to 18month olds20:56
LaserJockand I'm working on getting it going for universities20:56
LaserJockthe common goal is "Education"20:56
LaserJock QUESTION: Is there any plan for a non-LTSP Edubuntu distribution for those who want the installation to be20:56
LaserJock                            simpler on individual PCs(no network)? (like Ubuntu Desktop)20:57
LaserJockwe have a Desktop CD20:57
LaserJockit works just the same as the Ubuntu Desktop CD20:57
LaserJockit just had the Edubuntu themeing and some educational applications20:57
LaserJockwe couldn't stuff *all* of the edu apps so you won't get everything we have to offer20:58
LaserJockbut the rest can be easily downloaded via metapackages20:58
LaserJockQUESTION: Do you find you are able to introduce Edubuntu in schools easily, or do schools restrict  themselves to Windows20:58
LaserJockit can be tough20:58
LaserJockit is definately an uphill battle20:58
LaserJockbut well worth it20:58
LaserJockand there is growing success around the world20:59
LaserJockthere are several individual schools that have converted to Edubuntu20:59
LaserJockbeing able to drop an Edubuntu LTSP into an exisiting Windows network seamlessly will be a big help20:59
LaserJockQUESTION: many of the edubuntu educational apps are external projects (i.e. not developed by canonical),  are there any efforts by canonical to improve these apps? especially ones that are great but  seem to be lacking progress?21:00
LaserJockI believe all the apps are external projects21:00
LaserJockwe pretty much just try to pull it together and provide the needed glue21:00
shane_QUESTION: have the team tried specifically to push for Edubuntu adoption esp in developing countries since it is obviously cheaper?21:01
LaserJockwe have small apps here and there, Thin Client Manager, and I'm working on some cool menu stuff for the next release21:01
LaserJockshane_: sure21:01
LaserJockno licensing fees is always a motivator21:01
LaserJockQUESTION: What do you see as the biggest barrier for getting schools to use Edubuntu over any  other system?21:02
shane_Question: and how has it been recieved esp with the younger children?21:02
LaserJockshane_: quite well21:02
LaserJockwe have a thank you pic from a class full of kids somewhwere on edubuntu.org21:02
LaserJockone of the biggest barriers I see is getting around the mentatily that to produce useful citizens we must use tied to Microsoft products21:03
shane_My mother has a kindergarten and would really like to move them over to Edubuntu... but the the games and other stuff they have under Windows is quite vast21:04
LaserJockyou have administrators who are not technically adept making decisions21:04
LaserJockthey have to see that a switch will be better for the children, and better for their school21:04
LaserJockQUESTION: Are there plans to ship the KDE4 education programs in  hardy?21:04
LaserJockwell, I don't think so as default21:05
LaserJockwe created for Gutsy a edubuntu-desktop-kde package that will help people who enjoy KDE21:05
LaserJockOK, wow21:06
LaserJockwe chewed up our time21:06
LaserJockand there are a ton more questions21:06
shane_QUESTION: are there any plans for introducing a simpler interface more akin to XO in Edubuntu?21:06
LaserJockI'm gonna stop now21:06
LaserJockand I would envite everybody to head over to #edubuntu21:06
LaserJockI'll try to answer some more questions there21:06
LaserJockand introduce you all to the team21:07
popeythanks LaserJock21:07
BonesolTeraDynethanks LaserJock21:07
LaserJockThanks for coming everybody!21:07
stgraberthanks LaserJock21:07
peppychthanks LaserJock21:07
lieterthank you LaserJock21:07
=== popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Current session: Troubleshooting with Launchpad Answers - Alan Pope
popeyHello everyone!21:08
popeyMy name is Alan Pope, and apparently I look like Elvis.21:08
zzzzzZZZZzzzThat's nice.21:09
popeyI'm going to talk a bit about launchpad answers, and afterwards take some questions21:09
popeyLaunchpad was covered yesterday by Matt Revell. See the following log of that session if you'd like to know more about launchpad in general.21:09
popeyhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekgutsy/LP_Introduction1 - Log of the Launchpad session from yesterday.21:09
popeyFor the start of this session I'm going to "borrow" some of Matt Revells comments from that session.21:09
popey"Launchpad is a suite of tools that help you to take part in free software projects."21:10
popey"If you need help with Ubuntu, you can ask a question using Launchpad. Or, if you want to contribute back to the Ubuntu community by helping other people, you can answer their questions"21:10
popeyhttp://answers.launchpad.net/ - the main page for Launchpad Answers21:10
popeyhttp://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ -  the Launchpad Answers page specifically for the Ubuntu product21:10
popey(note this generally covers _all_ Ubuntu products [Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Edubuntu] due in part to them sharing many of the same packages and resources)21:10
popeySo if you want to file a question about an Ubuntu application (such as Gedit) or a Kubuntu package (such as Kate) you can do at the same URL above.21:11
popeyMailing lists and web forums are traditionally where free software projects answer user support questions. However, it can be difficult to capture that knowledge and make it easily available to the community.21:11
popeySome people are also intimidated by mailing lists or the initiation rituals of some forums :)21:11
popeyLaunchpad's Answer Tracker is a simple way for people to ask questions about a project.21:11
popeyAnyone can offer an answer and the original questioner can highlight the answer they found most useful.21:11
popeyMembers of a project's community can sign up to be support contacts, meaning they receive an email each time a new question is asked about that project. Support contacts can also identify which questions are FAQ.21:12
popeyFAQ - along with a good answer - are then easily searchable and available to anyone.21:12
popey < mbt> QUESTION:  Will there ever be a ML or NG <--> LP gateway for Answers?  Some people (well, like myself ;-)  have strong dislikes for web forum based systems21:12
popey                                        for various reasons.21:12
popeyGood question. I don't like forums either :)21:12
popeyThe good news is you can interact with launchpad answers entirely via email21:13
popeyyou don't have to visit the site at all21:13
popeyso you can treat it just like you would a mailing list21:13
popeyPeople can ask questions in their own language(s). Support contacts can choose to receive notification of questions asked in their preferred languages.21:13
popeyImportantly, all of the questions and answers are easily searchable, meaning that they build into a knowledge-base for the project.21:13
popeyBefore you can post questions (and indeed answers), on the answers system, you need to register on Launchpad.21:14
popeyYou can search and read answers without a Launchpad logon though.21:14
popeyhttps://launchpad.net/+login - Register with Launchpad here21:14
popeyClearly you only need to do this once.21:14
popeyThere are other benefits to registering on Launchpad, including being able to report, update, track and triage bugs, translate applications and so on. I'm not going to cover those areas.21:14
popeySo how about some use cases for Launchpad Answers:21:15
popeySCENARIO 1: John is a new user to Ubuntu and he has a problem with his computer. His 1280x1024 screen doesn't seem to be running at the right resolution.21:15
popeySCENARIO 2: Ralph is an experienced user of Ubuntu, and he would like to give back to the community. Ralph isn't a developer though, but feels he has enough experience at a user level to be able to help other new users.21:15
popeySCENARIO 3: Dave is a developer of a product (Mythbuntu) that is supplied in the Ubuntu repository, and is managed through Launchpad, he wants to answer technical questions from his users, and keep those answers in one searchable location so that he can refer other users to that resource.21:15
popey(yes, that's you Daviey )21:16
popeySo Scenario 1 is a user, Scenario 2 is an expert user, Scenario 3 is a developer21:16
popey< rohan> QUESTION: in relation to mbt's question, is Launchpad Answers meant in part to replace ubuntuforums.org ? if not, why ?21:16
popeyNo. Answers isn't a replacement for ubuntu forums21:16
popeyubuntu forums does consist of Q&A, but it also has a massive community of discussion around it21:16
popeyit also has libraries of how-tos, and other technical documents21:17
popeythat's not what answers is about21:17
popey< dorto> QUESTION: Wouldn't Launchpad Answers result in massive amount of duplication of Qs asked and Answers given? The same DVD questions are already asked on Forums, Mailing Lists and  Launchpad Bugs site.21:17
popeyPossibly, but that is going to happen anywhere21:17
popeynewbies just flat out don't search for answers - a lot of the time anyway21:18
popeythat's a fact we have to live with21:18
popeyhowever, having the database available and searchable is a significant benefit21:18
popeyin addition questions are tagged with the application to which they pertain21:18
popeyso someone can (for example) see all questions relating to "gedit" or "firefox"21:18
popeywhich you can't do on the forums (easily)21:18
popey < rohan> i mean, why not keep a single place - LA - for question answers and support ? why have ubuntuforums.org too, for the same purpose21:19
popeyubuntuforums was a separate entity, it grew throught the community21:19
popeyanswers has always been a strategic launchpad product21:19
popeythe two run in parallel21:19
popeythere is room for both in my opinion21:19
popeythere are a significant number of people who _only_ use the forums, and not answers, and there are also groups of people who use answers but not forums21:20
popey < mbt> QUESTION:  Is LP Answers intended only for "sanctioned" solutions and/or workarounds, or are answers free to address problems in any way that works?21:20
popeyGood question!21:20
popeyno, not at all, it's acommunity based application21:20
popeyso people sometimes give duff advice, in exactly the same way they do everywhere else21:20
mbtMay I clarify?21:21
mbtThere are often several ways to solve a problem, with varying degress of "Ubuntuness" to them.  Is there an unwritten something or general concensus as to what sort of answers are supplied?  That's really more what I was asking I think.21:22
popeywell, I'll give you an example21:22
popeyQ: I'd like to play DVDs, what should I do?21:22
popeyAnswer1: Install automatix21:22
popeyAnswer2: Read _this_ page on the wiki21:22
popeyAnswer3: Install the following list of packages... foo, bar, baz21:23
popeyEach answer is potentially valid21:23
popeynone are intrinsically _wrong_21:23
popeywhat you find though is that it is somewhat "self policing"21:23
popeyin that other members of the community will correct other people - but should do so within the bounds of the CoC21:23
popeyi.e. not saying "Don't listen to that advice it's rubbish!"21:23
popeybut saying something like "Some people advice against using method A, and suggest you should use method B"21:24
popeythat make sense mbt?21:24
mbtOkay, thanks!  That has been a big question for me.21:24
popeyI'm going to move on, then come back to questions21:24
popeyLet's take Johns problem first. You can do this along with me now if you have web access - you will _not_ need a Launchpad account for this bit.21:25
popeySCENARIO 1: John is a new user to Ubuntu and he has a problem with his computer. His 1280x1024 screen doesn't seem to be running at the right resolution.21:25
popeyJohn simply visits http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ (or goes to http://launchpad.net/ then clicks "Answers", then clicks "Ubuntu")21:25
popey(of course he can follow links from the ubuntu.com home page too via "Support")21:25
popeyJohn can then search for his problem. Type "resolution" in the search box at http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ then press "Search".21:25
popeyYou should see quite a few questions appear.21:25
popeyOn the right there is a button which can be pressed to open a new question. This can be done if a few searches reveal no results.21:26
popeySo if John wanted to ask a question, all he'd do is click the blue "Ask a question" button.21:26
popeyHowever we have lots of results when searching so lets take a look at one already reported.21:26
popeyTake a look at one specific example:- click on number 1111021:26
popeyThis should take you to:- https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/1111021:26
popeyHere you can see a number of items of information:-21:26
popey. A subject in bold, a nice _meaningful_ subject. This helps a lot when looking for answers.21:27
popey. A short description of the problem. Note that the poster gave the specific hardware details, and also the version of Ubuntu being used. In addition they gave a list of things they've tried which didn't work. This information often helps get a speedy answer, and could be considered the minimum required when asking a question.21:27
popey. A reply from Cesare Tirabassi dated the same day. In it, Cesare doesn't try to talk through how to fix the problem, but instead refers to a document that already exists on the wiki. This is great because in the future someone else (like John) may come and find this question.21:27
popey  If the reply had lots of technical detail, then it's possible the response may be no longer valid (possibly if screens, menus or programs change name)21:27
popey. A further reply from the original poster saying that the answer resolved the issue. This is great. It gives helpers some feedback that they are giving the right advice.21:27
popeyPretty much perfect example of an answers question :)21:28
popeyNotice down the left there are some neat features.21:28
popeyUnder "Actions" (blue box) we can21:28
popey. Edit the question (perhaps to fix the subject line if it wasn't clear).21:28
popey. View the entire history of the question21:28
popey. Subscribe to this single question so that we get email alerts when it is changed or updated21:28
popey. Link this question to a bug report - this can be useful where users report a problem as a question, but it's already a known bug. Bugs can be searched for in launchpad also.21:29
popey So you may actually find the bug yourself then link the question to the bug. Once you do that the user will get notifications of changes to the bug as well as the question.21:29
popey. Create bug report and link this question to it (assuming you have already searched and not found an appropriate one to link to)21:29
popeyUnder "Ubuntu question #11110"21:29
popey. You can see a summary of when the question was created, and who answered and solved it.21:29
popeyUnder Subscribers to question #11110"21:29
popey. The original poster (who asked the question) is subscribed21:30
popey. Lots of other people who are also subscribed (including me at the top :) )21:30
popeySubscription means that you get emails whenever this question is updated.21:30
popeyYou can of course unsubscribe to stop the mails21:30
popeySome of us are subscribed to all questions so we get a mail every time a new question is created, changed, answered, solved, reopened and so on.21:30
popey(we are "answer contacts")21:30
popeyIt's probably wise that most people _don't_ do that, you get a LOT of mail as a result.21:31
popeyNote that the question is marked as "solved".21:31
popeyThis can be done by the person who asked the question.21:31
popeyThey can choose to wait for more answers, or tick that the question is solved, and that way other people won't bother wasting time answering it.21:31
popeyAnd other people reading this question will easily find the "right" answer21:31
popeyTypically a question goes from "Open" (just asked) to "Needs Information" (when an answer contact asks for more detail), then to "Open" again (when the detail is provided) then hopefully "Answered" followed by "Solved".21:32
popeyHowever it can bounce back and forth many times before a question becomes "Solved".21:32
popeyQuestions can also be tagged as invalid if they are for example duplicates or spam.21:32
popeyOk, time for some more questions21:32
popey < dorto> QUESTION: Is there a *compelling* reason you think can justify adding yet another source of community support? FAQ can be collected and stickied on forums too; product21:33
popey                  developers can be requested to participate on forums instead of answers, forums are also browseable/searchable without logging in and tagging can be added.21:33
popeyanswers is linked to packages and products in launchpad21:33
popeyso in _one_ place you can see the code, translation, bug reports and answers21:33
popeyit's also only "another" source of community support for those people who don't _already_ use it21:34
popeyfor me the forums are _another_ source of community support21:34
popeyit's all about perspective21:34
popey< dgjones> QUESTION: How difficult is it to avoid duplication of similar bug reports by different people when the wording or terminology is slightly different or maybe written by people  with varied native languages?21:34
popeyYou can mark a question as invalid and link to another question that has already been answered21:34
popeyor link to a bug21:35
popeyanother benefit of launchpad is that answers are assigned to their packages21:35
popey(I'll show that in just a moment)21:35
popey < DShepherd> QUESTION: Who is responsible for administering the statuses for each Q&A entries and how do they determine which status is appropriate?21:35
popeyWhen a question is initially opened it is in status "open"21:35
popeyWhen someone types a reply they have two buttons "Add answer" and "add information request"21:36
popeyif you click "add answer" the status changes to "answered"21:36
popeyif you hit "add information request" (maybe to find out what version of ubuntu they are on) the status changes to "Needs information"21:36
popeythen the original poster gets to choose which answer was "right" or "more right" and tags that as solved21:37
popeythe one that was "right" gets highlighted21:37
popeyso others can see which was the right answer21:37
popey(something the forums don't do)21:37
popeyfor example if I visit the forums I might find a question with answers spanning 20 pages, and I have no clue which is the most right answer21:37
popeywith the answer tracker it is up to the person askingt the question to just tick which was the most right answer21:38
popeyin addition there is a janitor that cleans out questions that are dormant21:38
popeythat is ones that have had little or no activity, and are not solved yet21:38
popeythe questioner can re-open them to "bump" them up and maybe get someone to look at hem21:38
popey < FayZee> QUESTION: I just visited https://answers.launchpad.net/, selected the "One project" option and clicked the "Choose" link ... nothing. Because the link is designed to launch a21:38
popey                   JavaScript popup window and I prefer to surf with JS turned OFF. Any plans to include non-JS surfers such as myself?21:39
popeySpeak to Kiko :)21:39
popeyI don't develop Launchpad, I just use it21:39
popey < dorto> popey: Ok, that looks really cool :) QUESTION: Does it work like a wiki regarding how bug IDs are attached, removed(if it was wrongly attached) and maybe re-attached by any21:39
popey                  user? Or only some people can attach bugs/code/etc?21:39
popeythere's quite a bit of flexibility there yes21:40
enser762hi :D21:40
popeyyou can attach multiple bug reports to an answer21:40
popeyyou can modify the question21:40
popeyit does pretty much what you expect :)21:40
enser762whats the rules?21:40
mbtenser762: Please keep chat in #ubuntu-classroom-chat21:40
popeyok, my last few lines of prepared content, then if you have any more questions I'll deal with those at the end..21:41
popeySCENARIO 2: Ralph is an experienced user of Ubuntu, and he would like to give back to the community. Ralph isn't a developer though, but feels he has enough experience at a user level to be able to help other new users.21:41
popeyTo answer questions Ralph does need a logon to Launchpad.21:41
popeySo he should visit this page first:- https://launchpad.net/+login21:41
popeyOnce registered Ralph can just dive in and start answering questions.21:41
popeyRalph may have a lot of skill with one particular application, or one derivative of Ubuntu, in which case he may want to filter the questions to his speciality area.21:41
popeyAlternatively Ralph can just visit http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ and scroll down until he finds questions he thinks he can answer.21:42
popeyDon't worry if you can't answer many of the questions, someone else may be able to.21:42
popeyIn addition, there are some amazingly easy ones out there!21:42
popeyYou have to be quick to catch them though :)21:42
popeyA nice benefit of launchpad is that when you do "stuff" like answer questions, you get given "karma", points if you like21:42
popeyThese don't really mean much other than give you a little reward, and *might* be considered when/if you apply for ubuntu membership :)21:43
popeyIt's also useful to filter the display to only show questions which are "Open".21:43
popeyThat way you wont see any "Solved" (no need for more detail), "Answered" (potentially solved), or "Needs Information" (waiting for a reply from the original questioner).21:43
popeyTo do that simply go to http://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu/ then remove the tickboxes from everything except "Open" then press "Search" (with the search field blank).21:43
popeyStart answering!21:44
popeyTop tip: A considerable number of questions can be answered quite easiy with 30 seconds of google or wiki searching21:44
popeySCENARIO 3: Dave is a developer of a product (Mythbuntu) that is supplied in the Ubuntu repository, and is managed through Launchpad. He wants to answer technical questions from his users, and keep those answers in a nice searchable location so that he can refer other users to that resource.21:45
popeyThere is a link in the top right of Daves product (Mythbuntu) page https://launchpad.net/mythbuntu/ to answers.21:45
popeyThis takes him to https://answers.launchpad.net/mythbuntu/21:45
popeyIt's a "helpdesk" system for his product, with zero effort on his part, it's a bonus of hosting his code on launchpad!21:46
popeyDave can then start answering questions, converting questions to bugs, and generally interact with his community of users through questions and answers in the same way that Ralph does for Ubuntu.21:46
popeyThere are many more features I don't have time to explain, so why not drop by and have a play for yourself :)21:46
popeyAny questions?21:46
popey < mbt> QUESTION:  So, you can use Launchpad for many non-Ubuntu things, too, is that right?21:47
popeyyou can use it for anything hosted in launchpad21:47
popeyso yes, non-ubuntu products can also use it21:47
popeywhilst launchpad is heavily used by the ubuntu project, the ultimate idea is that anyone can register any project (subject to T&C) on launchpad21:48
popeyand use these great tools21:48
popey < ttread> QUESTION: Is there any way to associate a question or answer with a specific release or platform?21:48
popeyGood question!21:48
popeyThere are deliberately few tags, or fields for people to fill in21:48
popeythat is a pain in some ways because often the first thing you ask people is "what release, which video card, what application"..21:48
popey..but people actually are pretty bright and know there is some minimum level of detail they need to give21:49
popeyand they mostly do21:49
popeyYeah, okay you sometimes get questions like "My ubontoo don't work. HELP!!!"21:49
popeybut they are luckily few and far between21:49
popeyand you have to take into account that these people may never have used a formal support system before21:49
popeyso we cut them some slack :)21:50
popey < musashi1> QUESTION: adding code tags doesn't seem an option. any plans to make that a bit easier?21:50
popeyso you can paste logs and such? yes, that would be neat21:50
musashi1or terminal output21:50
popeyit can sometimes be difficult to read21:51
popeyhowever I usually read launchpad answers in my email client so it's less of an issue21:51
popeythe point that came up earlier, that some people don't like to answer questions in a web forums, but prefer to use mailing lists and such..21:51
musashi1i'm the opposite21:51
popeysure, that's the great thing! we have choice21:52
popeyone person chooses forums, another chooses mailing lists21:52
popeywe all get the job done in the end21:52
popey\o/ yay free software21:52
popey < mbt> QUESTION:  If a project chooses to host their things with LP, how easy is it to set up an Answers "portal" (Is that the right word?) for the project?21:52
popeyyou don't have to do anything I don't think. It just works21:53
popey(I think thats the case, kiko can confirm)21:53
popeywell there's only 5 mins left21:54
popeythanks for listening and being so polite and asking great questions everyone!21:55
popeyIf you have any more questions, feel free to ping me on irc21:55
peppychthanks to you popey nice session. I definitively have to hang more out on LP. you guys convinced me ;)21:58
nixternalpopey: you didn't offer them money again did you?21:59
Davieypopey: good session!21:59
BonesolTeraDyneThanks popey22:00
nixternalKubuntu Time?22:00
nixternalanyone staying awake for this one?22:00
BonesolTeraDyneI am22:00
Rudd-Xkubuntu, yes!!!!!22:00
stdinI stayed awake just for this :)22:00
moriancumerI've been waiting all day for this.22:00
Rudd-Xit's 16h00 over here22:01
=== popey changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Current session: Kubuntu - Richard Johnson
Rudd-Xlong live kubuntu!22:01
nixternalRudd-X: same here, Chicago!!!22:01
dortoit's 2:31AM here :(22:01
FADONit already started?22:01
ajmitchoh dear :)22:01
nixternalcan someone k/b ajmitch please, he is a troll22:02
Rudd-XGuayaquil! represent!22:02
nixternalkthxbye! :)22:02
ajmitchnixternal: can do22:02
FADON21:02 UTC22:02
nixternalok, let me start this out with a quick intro22:02
nixternalName: Rich Johnson, 33, Chicago, IL - Kubuntu, KDE, and Debian geek, Been with the Kubuntu project for about 2 years now, been using Linux since the Navy in 199422:03
nixternalummm, I do dev, motu, and doc work mostly, and the chicago loco team22:03
nixternalOK, that is out of the way22:03
nixternalI want to take a quick poll22:04
nixternalWho is here for the dev type stuff? Who is here for just the end user KDE rocks my socks stuff?22:04
dortoubunturos: yeah, India. You?22:04
Rudd-XI'm here for both22:04
Daisuke_Idoa little of column a, a little of column b22:04
Rudd-XI want juicy dev porn22:04
lieternixternal, last one22:04
OtenkiyaMostly rocks my sox, a little dev.22:04
robc4end user22:04
FADONjust like a user22:04
awkorama_i'm here for very ulikely convincement to switch to kde22:04
nixternalthanks Riddell :)22:04
Rudd-Xsup jonathan22:05
peppychto learn more so I would say both22:05
BonesolTeraDynea bit of both22:05
ajmitchthe former22:05
nixternalalrighty, lets kick off with some dev talk....I am sure you all followed the 7.10 release closely22:05
nixternalSo as most of you know we added Strigi (hold down the boos), and we incorporated Dolphin (not D3lphin) as the default file manager22:06
nixternalWe were the first distro to release KDE 3.5.8, and actually the only one still to day, with a major release22:07
Riddell? it was D3lphin22:07
nixternalwell it is dolphin now, someone woke up and realised you don't spell it with a 3 :)22:07
Riddellaye, we patched the name22:07
nixternalalrighty, the past is done, lets talk about Hardy and what we are looking at for the next 6 months of development22:08
nixternalsince Hardy is going to be an LTS release, our main goal is definitely going to be stability22:08
nixternalthere are a lot of bugs with Kubuntu right now, and only a handful of developers...so if there is one thing you take out of this entire talk, it should be...We need you! There is plenty of work, not only for developers, but for people who just installed Linux today, or are going to install it tomorrow22:09
nixternallet me retract that "lot of bugs with kubuntu"22:09
nixternalthere are a lot of K related bugs22:09
nixternalwhich of course when we absorb the packages, Kubuntu absorbs the issues as well...granted the vast majority are minor and usually easy to work around, but we have some bugs that we are definitely interested in getting them worked out with Hardy22:10
nixternalas for our plans, next weekend in Boston, most of our ideas will be on the firing line, or the drawing board in Boston at the Ubuntu Developer Summit22:11
nixternalso as it stands, nothing is yet set in stone....so hopefully we will be able to get some user input this following week of likes and dislikes...because we create Kubuntu for you more so than we do for us22:11
nixternalKDE 422:12
nixternalhow many ofyou just woke back up?22:12
* Rudd-X did22:12
* Otenkiya raises her hand22:12
* DShepherd yawns22:12
nixternalI love how I can just throw that out and people perk right up like I dropped something in their drink22:12
* daSkreech raises head22:12
* BonesolTeraDyne ditches #kubuntu to hear this22:12
Daisuke_Idoi think i'm the only one not impressed so far :)22:13
* begert__ drinks drink22:13
Daisuke_Ido(with kde4, not nixternal :)22:13
nixternalRiddell: you can throw in a little with this one as well, since you are the boss, but I would like to toss out my idea for Hardy, and I am sure, well I know we have talked about it22:13
nixternalHow about a Live CD with KDE 4 by default?22:13
Riddellooh, yes please22:14
* daSkreech fires up his burner22:14
DShepherdnixternal, that's usable? sure22:14
nixternalSeeing as we will not release the LTS with KDE 4, but instead keep with the more stable KDE 3.5 branch22:14
Riddelllets do that on the day of 4.0 release22:14
Rudd-XI think that would be a great idea *if* the packages in the KDE4 livecd are the same packages in a publicly available tentative repo22:14
nixternalRudd-X: they would be22:14
Rudd-XRiddell: that would be a major PR coup22:15
nixternalwe only use the Ubuntu repos, so what would be on said CD, would be available for everyone no matter what *buntu they installed22:15
daSkreechRudd-X: do you mean if they track the KDE4 repos?22:15
Rudd-XI basically mean what nixternal just confirmed.  that we as users can use it as an everyday desktop choice, not just on livecds.22:15
nixternalIf I can push Riddell a little more, I would like to work on getting the Live CD started prior to the 4.0 release, maybe an RC release so we can get people to start filing bugs on it22:16
stdinplease keep the chat in -chat :)22:16
Riddellhow usable KDE 4 is of course depends on the KDE developers22:17
Riddellit's a first rate platform which will last for years22:17
nixternalso with that said, we will bring you KDE 4, on a Live CD, that you can install and run as your main system if you want to, but don't expect 5 years of support on it :)22:17
Riddell4.0 however won't be the most stable of desktops22:17
nixternalthat is true22:17
Daisuke_Idoso...  am 8.04 LTS and an 8.04 regular release, depending on DE?22:18
nixternal4.1 will be the release that gets KDE 4 up to the specifications that the amazing KDE developers came up with22:18
nixternal8.04 LTS and lets say and 8.04 gift for the hollidays release?22:18
nixternalOK, forget the spelling, because I messed up holidays as well22:18
Riddellthe 4.0 CDs will be an updated 7.1022:20
nixternalThat is going to be the really big bit of dev news really for Hardy...but I really want you to know, that if you are an aspiring developer, I mean if you just looked at a #include today, or an import pyqt4 today, we can definitely use your help, and teach you as we go22:20
nixternalRiddell: OK, that is how we are going to do it then?22:20
Riddelldev news for hardy..22:20
nixternalya, that makes more sense, seeing that at the end of December, we won't even be at the halfway point with 8.04...good call22:20
Riddellwe hope to catch up more with bits we miss compared to Ubuntu22:21
Riddellthis will be the main spec for UDS https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyCatchup22:21
Riddellcurrent notes at the bottom22:21
nixternaland you beat me to it :)22:21
nixternalRiddell: mark Rudd-X down as a Python guy looking for work!22:22
Riddellbut we lack in printing, compiz, codec install (of course we had that first mind), printing support and a couple other areas22:22
Riddellwe can always use some of them22:22
nixternalwhoever is controlling questions, if there are dev questions, throw them in right nwo before we continue..is that cool?22:24
nixternalnice lag22:24
nixternaldaSkreech: do me a fave, copy/paste the questions from chat into here?22:25
nixternalI am w/o mouse right now22:25
Rudd-XQUESTION: Assuming we are going to KDE4 which has compositing already. Does it make sense to integrate compiz now?22:26
nixternaland that is why I love KDE...no mouse, yet I can still do almost all of what I need22:26
nixternalRudd-X: for 3.5 branch of KDE, yes it does make sense, since there will still be some 3.5 users, they want their eye candy as well22:27
nixternalstdin: bring the questions in here :) I can't c/p right now :)22:27
Rudd-X<daSkreech> QUESTION: Are we allowed to know how many Businesses are requesting Kubuntu vs Ubuntu? And if they require changes what those changes are?22:27
stdinnixternal: gotya22:27
nixternalRiddell: ^^ that would be a Canonical question22:27
RiddellRudd-X: short answer is I've no idea, I don't work in support or bizdev22:28
nixternalI can at least say there has been a few major roll outs of Kubuntu... the Canary Islands have their implementation as well as the French Parliament22:28
Riddelllonger answer is we have some big rollouts in Georgia and Canary Islands and French Parliament and various others22:28
nixternalGeorgia, the country, as well22:28
ubunturos<BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: When will we get KOffice installed by default instead of OpenOffice?22:28
nixternalwhen KOffice is a tad bit more usuable for new users would be my answer22:29
RiddellI don't get large amounts of commercial requests, a printer company asked me to review their PPD files for some reason22:29
nixternalI use and prefer KOffice over OOo, but I have tested a lot of new users with it, and they didn't respond as well22:29
ubunturosQUESTION:  Regarding KDE and its bugs... Any idea if KDE 4 is going to be a long-lived, stable platform that will have the chance to be ironed out?22:29
Riddellmost support is for server anyway of course22:29
nixternalubunturos: most definitely22:29
ubunturos<BonesolTeraDyne> QUESTION: When will we get some games installed by default? At least we could include KMines.22:30
nixternalI think when KDE 4 rolls out, you will see more free software developers jump on and help with the future development22:30
Rudd-X<Rudd-O> QUESTION: Any special attention towards automating and easing enterprisey needs such as lockdown (kiosk) and profile predefinition tools (sabayon)?22:30
nixternalholy smokes, I think that is a first I have seen the "games by default" question22:30
nixternalRiddell: are there any plans for Games by default?22:31
Riddellwe have had parts of KOffice by default, Krita and Kexi, but those are first in line to be pushed off when we need more CD space22:31
Riddellmm, games I'm unsure about22:31
Riddellit comes down to do we want another language on the CD or do we want kmines22:31
Riddelland I've always gone for more languages22:31
RiddellI'm willing to be persuaded of course22:31
stdin<Rob125> QUESTION: nixternal, can you go into a little more depth about aspiring developers and our use? If we're looking to contribute, what's the best possible way we can get involved or educate ourselves toward what's needed for Kubuntu?22:31
nixternalthere you heard it, persuade him22:31
Riddellsome of the KDE 4 games are beautifully slick22:31
Rudd-XI think you would need to assess whether kmines will give you that extra delta X users compared to a new language22:32
nixternalRob125: one sec, and I will get that one, let me get Rudd's really quick about kiosks22:32
RiddellRudd-X: Gutsy was the first release to have Kiosk in main.  unfortunately the tool is not well supported upstream and there's no KDE 4 version in the works (it would be a good target for someone wanting to get into KDE development)22:32
nixternalWe have the OEM install so far, and I do know there is a Kiosk mode available for Kubuntu, only because our local courthouse uses Kubuntu and Ubuntu in Kiosk mode, and my church uses it as well22:32
Riddellnixternal: they do?  excellent!22:33
nixternalFor Aspiring Devs:  There are many uses and of course each depends on your experience22:33
nixternalRiddell: ya, I heard the startup sounds during jury duty last year22:33
nixternalIf you are fluent in Python or C++, then of course if you look at the notes that are in the Spec, you can see we will have plenty for one to do22:34
nixternalbut it doesn't stop there whatsoever22:34
nixternalIf you are just learning a language, like I am with Python, we can still use you and actually teach you along the way...Kubuntu has some of the greatest Devs I have had the priviledge of working with and are always helping new developers22:35
nixternalyou can start out with some bug triage to get familiar with the processes we endure22:35
nixternalyou can apply patches22:35
nixternalyou can help write full-fledged applications, like mhb did with Gdebi in Gutsy22:36
nixternalor front-ends to be more precise22:36
Riddellhe wrote restricted manager too, go him!22:36
nixternalpackaging is another thing not only Kubuntu needs, but Ubuntu in general22:36
nixternaloh ya, k-r-m was mhb as well...he would be the superdev of Gutsy w/o a doubt22:36
Riddellnixternal: pst, merges!22:36
nixternalthat goes with the packaging of course...we have a lot of "K" packages that we need to merge from Debian22:37
nixternalas it stands, there are probably less than 10 Kubuntu packagers to help maintain thousands of packages22:37
Riddellhttp://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html loads of packages!22:37
nixternalof course we get a little help from the Ubuntu developers when they get some time, but even then, we are still under 10022:38
nixternalI just merged bitlbee for Hardy, so that will be one less on that list :)22:38
Riddellall needing merged with Debian22:38
stdin<lieter> QUESTION: is it possible to attract also 'regular' ubuntu devs to the kubuntu project for a larger devbase? Or do you really need 'fresh blood'?22:38
nixternalBoth...I think fresh blood brings fresh ideas22:38
nixternalI even enjoy the younger generation of developers, because they have a nack for stuff that me being an old time doesn't see22:39
ubunturos<daSkreech> QUESTION: Are you planning on upping the number of Developers for Kbuntu?22:39
nixternalie. compiz and such...not a fan of it, but there are definitely millions who are22:39
nixternalI finally left a black/green terminal after more than 10 years :)22:40
nixternalI wonder if he meant Paid Developers or Volunteer Developers22:40
Rudd-XI think he meant both22:40
nixternalwell we always plan on upping volunteer developers, and I know a lot of us try to recruit new developers22:41
nixternalthe paid devs is on Mr. Kubuntu himself to answer22:41
nixternalsee, Kubuntu has a small developer community...so as a developer, you don't have to worry about getting lost in the mix22:41
nixternalwe know our devs are volunteers and we try not to stress them, we let them do as they wish and if they can't do it and can pass it on, we totally celebrate that22:42
Riddellif someone wants to sponsor more developers that would be great, I don't believe Canonical has any plans to do so currently22:42
ubunturos<frank23> QUESTION: Does kubuntu always aim for feature-parity with ubuntu? Right now, kaffeine doesn't ask to install video codecs when you try to play an unsupported video like totem does in ubuntu. Does kubuntu have the feature where you plug in a printer and its automagically setup ?22:42
nixternalwe are a very fun community behind the scenes loaded with some very talented people, and some of the greatest personalities you could imagine22:43
nixternalfrank23: that is what our plans are for Hardy22:43
FADONubuntu still being ubuntu, kubuntu has his own way22:43
nixternalas a matter of fact, if you read https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyCatchup you will see everything you just asked22:43
stdin<begert__> QUESTION: how does being a KDE developer differ than being a Kubuntu developer?22:43
nixternalwell with Kubuntu you are concentrating more so on the release, but you are keeping upstream, KDE in this instance in the back of your mind22:44
nixternaland being a Kubuntu developer, will more than likely lead you to becoming a KDE developer22:44
nixternalit did for me at least22:44
nixternaleven though I am just a mouse compared to the giants22:44
nixternalKDE devs are developing for KDE and KDE only, all application type work22:45
stdin<Rudd-O> QUESTION: what is the singgle biggest factor (repeating hurdle, consuming task) that would multiply our packaging forces, to reuse Debian efforts?22:45
nixternalKubuntu devs are taking what the KDE devs do, and tweak it a bit, and make sure it gets to the user in the best possible condition22:45
nixternalwe do reuse debian efforts, and debian reuses ours22:46
nixternalthe single biggest factor though, would be the lack of people getting into development22:46
nixternalremember that Ubuntu attracts a lot of new users who aren't familiar with the free software world22:46
nixternalso we need to let them know it is safe, it is fun, and you will learn22:46
nixternalJuan (Jucato) is a perfect example of that22:47
nixternalin less than 2 years he is one of Kubuntu's greatest assetts22:47
nixternaland when I say 2 years, I mean he installed Linux for the first time just 2 years ago22:47
nixternalno prior dev expiernce at all22:47
ubunturos<Rudd-O> QUESTION: Any special attention towards automating and easing enterprisey needs such as lockdown and profile predefinition tools?22:48
nixternalkeeping people interested, preventing them from burning out, are also some steep hurdles22:48
Riddellkiosktool is in main as I say, but it needs attetion upstream22:48
nixternalI haven't heard much from KDE about those, but there are plenty of utilities that you ask about available for Linux, and I can attest that they work fine with KDE22:49
nixternalwe have to use them at the university, so I know22:49
nixternalRiddell: I think Rudd-X wants to help develop that, he does ask about it quite a bit ;)22:49
Rudd-XI asked only once :-)22:50
nixternalman, there are some good questions in the queue22:50
Rudd-XI'm just reporting a bug, as a matter of fact22:50
ubunturos<Daisuke_Ido> QUESTION: Would a Western/Eastern edition of (k)ubuntu be feasible?  english on all, split the languages, and you have the ability to have more software by default?22:50
* Riddell doesn't understand that question22:50
Daisuke_Idowe hashed it out in the other channel, disregard22:51
ajmitchI think it's producing 2 CDs & splitting langpacks amongst them22:51
nixternalit is feasible, but would require numerous seeds in order to accomplish such a task22:51
Riddellthere are geographic derivatives of Kubuntu such as ArabicLinux, but Kubuntu itself should be as general as possible22:51
ubunturos<FayZee> QUESTION: I love KDE and I love lot's of programs. That's one of the reasons I go for Knoppix when I want to run live. Has anyone considered making a rich Kubuntu for a large capacity memory stick at a premium price?22:52
nixternalyou could always do what some other countries do, and that is create your own Kubuntu with exactly that...I have been impressed seeing the different countries doing that22:52
nixternalKubuntu will always be free!22:52
nixternalfree in every sense22:52
nixternalI have seen "Ubuntu" sticks floating around, so I am sure a Kubuntu stick wouldn't be to difficult22:53
nixternaland honestly, I would love to have one in my pocket...much easier than carrying around a CD :)22:53
RiddellCanonical isn't really into selling software, but there's plenty of shops selling Kubuntu CDs and I'd welcome it on a memory stick too22:53
nixternalI haven't tried it on a memory stick, I want to now...man, I would need more than 4gb, that is expensive :)22:53
Riddellnixternal: CDs are 700MB, that's all that's needed22:54
nixternalya, but I want to run Kubuntu from the stick, not the iso22:54
Rudd-XI tried it on memstick, and I lug it around all the time.  I use it to fix my poweredge (no cd drive) when I can't boot it.22:54
nixternalthat is exactly how we did the Ubuntu one, and it was slow22:54
stdin<frank23> QUESTION: Appart from catching up feature-wise with ubuntu, are there major new features planned for Kubuntu 8.04. Will bug fixing and stabilizing be a major priority?22:55
Rudd-XI think I used isolinux or ms-sys to make the stick boot from the files copied on the disk.22:55
nixternalBug fixing, stabalizing, and catching up will be huge, but of course we are always open to what the users want and we will listen22:55
Riddellthe major new feature will be KDE 4.022:56
Riddell(for the brave!)22:56
nixternalif we can't get it on the disc, we can put it elsewhere so it is easy for you to get, as long as it is free of course :)22:56
stdin<ttread> QUESTION: Where should an aspiring developer go for more info?22:56
nixternalwe sit in there and watch Riddell dance and drink irn all day long!22:57
Riddellhttps://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu too22:57
nixternalwhich of course needs to be updated, so if someone wants to help do that, there you go :)22:57
nixternalfor people who are brand new and want to get in and working towards being a developer, we have plenty of small jobs, and seeing as I do the documentation, any help is tremendous help in that arena especially if you read and write english at least as bad as I do22:58
nixternaltranslations!!!! translations!!!! but I will talk more about that on Saturday during the documentation talk22:58
nixternalJust so everyone knows, Kubuntu has our philosophies, and that is what I love, but we also have the users that we need to make happy, so user input is a huge must22:59
nixternalthat is where fresh blood really comes in handy22:59
nixternallike I said, if you just installed Linux, or you are running Apple or Windows and want to know what this Linux is, even if you don't like it, tell us how to make it better so in the future you will like it22:59
stdinand help your fellow man/woman in #kubuntu (sorry for the plug)23:00
nixternalhahaha, most definitely23:00
nixternalsee if you can top Jucato in the amount of help he has doled out...which I thing is a tough one to beat23:00
nixternalin 2 years, I didn't even equal him in 6 months23:00
nixternalwow, jcastro no 2nd class citizen man! :)23:01
frank23nixternal: what is the schedule for hardy kubuntu documentation? I had helped out for the dapper kubuntu docs. This time around, I'd like to at least proofread the documention. things tend to get outdated when they don't get reviewed as I noticed in the gutsy docs23:01
nixternalyou guys got some ideas, some feedback. let it roll23:01
hydrogenmake adept not suck.23:01
* hydrogen hides :)23:02
nixternalfrank23: I will probably start working on it again in the next 2 or 3 months, when we know for sure what is going to be set in stone23:02
nixternalhydrogen: hahaha, I was going to say "that's impossible", but I know there is a plan somewhere on doing just that23:02
nixternalI have just started using Adept here again just to check it out, and I will see it has gotten better23:02
hydrogenmm, searching is still a "please just shoot me in the head" type of thing23:03
hydrogenbut, i'll stop disturbing23:03
nixternalya, it really is filtering and not searching23:03
hydrogenback to being productive!23:03
ubunturosa small request, nixternal: use the nick while answering questions (if x asked it, x: answer) - *request*23:03
Daisuke_Idoa qt package manager that's more like synaptic? >_>23:03
nixternalubunturos: no problem23:03
popeytime is pretty much up23:04
popeybut you're free to carry on23:04
nixternalpopey: carrying on here :)23:04
Rudd-Xadept dies on me sometimes23:04
stdinwe KDE users like to rock hard :)23:04
Daisuke_Idoadept just makes me cry23:04
Riddellit's unclear what will happen to adept with KDE 423:04
nixternalOK, so it seems like Adept is something we definitely need to work on23:04
Riddellit may get ported, or we may start from scratch using something like packagekit23:04
nixternaloh ya, I forgot about PackageKit23:05
Rudd-Xyeah!  what about packagekit?23:05
Rudd-Xthat is one of the "projects to watch"!23:05
Riddellwell, packagekit is interesting, but currently very incomplete for apt and without an apt maintainer23:05
Rudd-Xis it gonna be integrated?23:05
frank23adept... well it's better than kynaptic anyways ;)23:05
Rudd-Xi just made a quick addition about adept in the helpingkubuntu page23:06
* Mez bashes head on wall at the mention of kynaptic23:06
ubunturosadept helped me solve a problem, I couldn't otherwise23:06
nixternalMez: I haven't been ignoring you :)23:06
nixternalwell, I have, just didn't want to sound mean23:06
Meznixternal, I know, I didnt realise you were doing your talk - tis cool...23:07
nixternalwhat do you guys/gals want to see in Hardy?23:07
nixternalbesides Adept :p23:07
ttreadnixternal: When an app fails to launch, I get the bouncing cursor for 30 sec or so... and then nothing.  Any way to get better feedback to the user?23:07
ryanakcanixternal: better eGroupWare support in Kontact ;)23:07
ubunturosmore K apps ;)23:07
Mezttread, er, I believe in gutsy that apport is worknig for kde aps ;)23:07
Rudd-Xttread: how hard would it be to show a nice message with stdout/err of apps that returned with a != 0 external code?23:07
nixternalonly way I can think of is launching it from the command line to see why it bugs up on you23:07
nixternalryanakca: amen!23:07
Daisuke_Idofor the end user, a better way to install themes (window decorations, etc)23:07
Riddellttread: that's hard to do because KDE doesn't know if the app has sucessfully quit or just not started, but it's an upstream issue not Kubuntu specific23:07
Daisuke_Idoso many questions about installing from kde-look :\23:08
frank23qtparted has a very long lasting bug. It streches to several times the width of the screen on a big drive.23:08
Rudd-XRiddell: but kde apps that start sucessfully fork and return 023:08
frijoliehow do you get rid of the bouncing cursor?23:08
frijoliethat's annoying23:08
ryanakcafrijolie: somewhere's in System Settings...23:08
Rudd-Xfrijolie: in your startup notification settings23:08
Rudd-Xdon't bother with system settings yet, use kcontrol directly23:08
pointwoodRiddell: stability, stability, stability ;)23:08
Rudd-Xtype notif in the search box and you will see23:08
ryanakcafrijolie: in some dark corner covered in cobwebs that nobody ever goes in23:08
pointwood@ what I want from hardy23:09
RiddellRudd-X: true, well patches welcome :)23:09
Riddellpointwood: funny thing about bugs, we have people helping with features but for some reason bug fixing is boring :)23:09
stdinfrijolie: "system settings > keyboard & mouse > mouse > Visual feedback on activation" (it's well hidden)23:09
MezRudd-X, system settings is quite good for what it is IMO23:09
stdinoh wow, 1 second quicker...23:09
nixternalso good in fact that it is the new systems manager for KDE 423:09
Mezbut not as flexible as kcontrol23:09
nixternalnot yet23:09
hydrogenspeaking as a developer as well as a user.. I think it would be nice if kubuntu could either work out a way to install debug symbols by default for packages, or at least make it really easy to install them23:10
Rudd-Xand I think not as complete either23:10
nixternalbut it will be23:10
Rudd-Xhydrogen: yes!  debug symbols!23:10
Mezhydrogen, pitti has a debug symbols archive somewhere23:10
nixternalhydrogen: packagename-dbg if it is available for that package23:10
Rudd-Xit should be an option directly on adept23:10
nixternalthat would be for Ubuntu in general23:10
hydrogennixternal: yea, I realize they can be gotten, it would be nice if they were there by default though23:10
stdinhydrogen: there is, http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/ddebs/ is an archive will -dbgsym ddebs for all packages23:10
Riddellhydrogen: that's an interesting idea23:10
nixternalRudd-X: good idea!23:10
Rudd-Xsomething that we don't need to do manually with intervention23:10
nixternalRiddell: Rudd-X said it should be an option in Adept23:10
nixternalthat is a good idea actually23:11
Riddellyes, or apport23:11
Rudd-Xnot so much an option23:11
peppychHave to go now, thanks nixternal for the session and thanks to all for this other great OW day, I cant wait tomorrow. see you all23:11
Rudd-Xas a setting that defaults to off but when you turn it on, all subsequent packages you install get their -dbg appended to the trnasaction23:11
hydrogenbecause getting backtraces that are full of ?? is not all that helpful, and sometimes crashes are not easily reproducable23:11
nixternalthanks peppych23:11
vyomanfor how long do you see KDE 3.x to continue after the launch of version 4?23:11
* hydrogen is thinking till at least 4.123:11
Rudd-Xhydrogen: yes, the precious backtraces I get are useful23:11
nixternalvyoman: I thought it was done, but I heard it will continue until 4.1 is a viable replacement23:11
Rudd-Xis there a way to combine saved cores with separately downloaded or even installed debug symbols ?23:11
nixternal> or >> :)23:12
Rudd-Xnixternal: rofl23:12
nixternalI wondered the same thing actually, as that would make it less of a mess when I am going through them on LP for sure23:12
vyomani am thinking that much work on the next release could be lost when moving to version 423:12
hydrogenothre than that.. I've been very happy with gutsy so far23:13
BonesolTeraDyneHere's an idea: A lauchpad front-end in an application. YOu could view and search bugs\answers\ect without having to go to the site in a browser23:13
Rudd-XLP should be able to combine them and show the proper symbols23:13
Rudd-Xbut I don't think that's easy23:13
Rudd-Xand it would requiore a HUGE symbosl archive23:13
stdinI think LP re-runs backtraces with debugging symbols when bugs are reported from apport23:13
nixternalvyoman: it is a loss we are willing to make, even though I think changes we make now will be easy to carry into KDE 423:13
hydrogencompiz by default in hardy would be nice23:13
stdinbut I have no clue how that's done23:13
RiddellRudd-X: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/DebuggingProgramCrash might help23:13
Rudd-XRiddell: thanks23:13
Daisuke_Idohydrogen: as hardy is designed for stability, i wouldn't hold my breath if i were you23:13
Rudd-X80% gnome-system-tools23:13
pointwoodmy bet is that bling will come when kde4 becomes default23:14
hydrogenDaisuke_Ido: its been definatly improving23:14
RiddellBonesolTeraDyne: bughelper23:14
hydrogenpointwood: well, kde4 will have compositing built in23:14
pointwoodintegrated into kwin23:14
nixternalhydrogen: if they can get the KDE bugs worked out with Compiz, then it will defintely be looked into, at least add an easy option to enable it23:14
pointwoodhydrogen: exactly23:14
Rudd-Xhaha festival pronounces kwin "queen"23:14
hydrogenone thing I would really like to see.. and I realize that its not that easy, is for kubuntu to not lag a release or so behind when it comes to the new user friendly applications23:15
BonesolTeraDyneRiddell: I mean an all in one, not just for bugs23:15
stdinhydrogen: that's why we need more developers23:15
nixternalhydrogen: we would like to see that too, but of course we need help in ensuring that23:15
hydrogenit would be really nice if they started pioneering the new apps, but having it by the same release would be nice enough23:15
stdinhydrogen: like Balmer says "Developers!!! Developers!!! Developers!!! AHHHH!"23:15
nixternalomg, the monkey dance23:16
pointwoodugh! bad pics in my head! get rid of them!23:16
hydrogennixternal: well, yea.. the thing that I see is that a lot of times the feature is not announced as being part of the next release of gnome until after the freeze23:16
hydrogenwhich is too late to make a kde frontend23:16
nixternalahhhhh, I see what you are saying...yes23:16
nixternalie. Gdebi :)23:16
Riddellhydrogen: anything specific in mind?23:16
nixternalbut we were slow on that one23:16
hydrogenRiddell: restricted-manager, update-manager23:17
vyomandevelopers: I think the QT java bindings could help, tapping into the java dev could be huge23:17
Rudd-Xhang on gonna get some beerz23:17
nixternalvyoman: we have them \o/23:17
stdinhow long did it take to have a "working" version upgrade system for Kubuntu? ;)23:17
vyomanai ;)23:17
nixternalQt Jambi is in Gutsy!!!23:17
* nixternal uses it23:17
Mezstdin, do we have one yet?23:17
Mezmine keeps telling me that gutsy's available23:18
nixternalMez: I hope so, I just documented it23:18
stdinMez: yep, upgraded my feisty deskrop today23:18
Mez(any time I get a gutsy update)23:18
BonesolTeraDyneMez: Mine too, even though I'm running Gutsy.23:18
stdinhaving -proposed enabled helps23:18
nixternalnice wallop there, #sandiegofire if anyone is affected by the fires right now...to late for my aunt, she lost her crib yesterday23:18
Riddellany more questions?23:21
vyomanI would like to see harddisk encryption in the next release, its a must in gov and enterprise for laptops, can kubuntu do that alone or is it a joined effort with ubuntu?23:21
Daisuke_Idohow many licks does it take to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop?23:22
Daisuke_Idosorry...  i had to :\23:22
FADONI only want to know, what is going to happen with konqueror in the future23:22
nixternalFADON: nothing, it is staying!23:22
Riddellvyoman: that's an installer issue so common to all variants, d-i may be able to do it already I'm not sure23:22
stdinvyoman: that has to be a low level thing, in the base system23:22
vyomangot ya thanks23:22
nixternalFADON: Dolphin will just be a simpler file manager, Konqi will still do what it does, and do it better23:22
FADONgreat :D23:23
Daisuke_Idovyoman: i would imagine that would be joint.  maybe the guys behind truecrypt would be useful?23:23
Riddelllooks like we're about done23:24
FujitsuDaisuke_Ido: The alternate/server installer *buntu 7.10 supports disk encryption, and Ubiquity hopefully will for 8.04 LTS.23:24
nixternalrock on!23:24
Riddellthanks nixternal, top session23:24
Fujitsus/installer/installer in/23:24
nixternalthank you Riddell for the help :)23:24
stdinooh, here's a question (more for Riddell), how much support does Kubuntu receive from Canonical compared to Ubuntu?23:24
Riddellstdin: you mean commercial support offering sold by canonical?23:24
nixternalhey everyone, kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com for development stuff, kubuntu-users@lists.kubuntu.org for support, and http://www.kubuntuforums.net for forums support23:24
stdinRiddell: well that, and the time/money canonical devote to kubuntu23:25
nixternalif you have ideas and what not, we will open up a wiki page, if it hasn't been done already, so you can add your ideas....you all had great questions and some really great ideas23:25
hydrogenof course I did23:25
hydrogeni'm great after all23:25
FADONin my opinion, i've seen much more forums and blogs about ubuntu instead of kubuntu, is like not all the people knows about "the other offers"23:25
Riddellstdin: hard to break down since we're just variants of each other and 90% the same, most work applies to both.  but I'm the only person paid to work full time on it by Canonical23:26
Riddellstdin: in regards to commercial support offering, they're both entirely supported, buy some now from shop.canonical.com!23:26
andreiQUESTION: will there be kubuntu backpacks at the Canonical Store ? :D23:27
FADONthey always are there23:27
=== Mez changed the topic of #ubuntu-classroom to: Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Sessions will resume at 15.00 UTC on Wednesday 24th October
stdinI want one of those huddies from shop.canonical.com, but kubuntu branded :)23:27
Mezstdin, speak to sealne23:27
popeyor gerry carr23:27
MezI remember scott saying something about him possibly making some up23:27
FADONok, tomorrow 12 Hs argentina, during the lunch :P23:28
Riddellandrei: you'd need to ask Gerry the marketing man (gerry.carr@canonical)23:28
Riddellor /msg sealne for t-shirts indeed23:28
andreiis there time for another question ?23:30
Riddellandrei: sure23:30
andreido translations for Gutsy get automatically ported to 8.04 ?23:31
* popey has pasted the logs so far into the wiki.. maybe you lot will stop talking soon :)23:31
Riddellthey'll be imported whenever 8.04 opens for translating (after string freeze)23:31
stdinI wonder if it'll end up being 8.06 :p23:31
Riddellstdin: no23:31
stdinI'll be running it soon enough anyway and watch my email flow over with bug reports23:33
Rudd-Xanyone can help me with qlistwidget?23:56

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