[00:54] <daskreech> Any transcripts?
[00:57] <ausimage> daskreech: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs :)
[01:02] <daskreech> ausimage: Thanks
[01:02] <ausimage> sure
[04:45] <rick_2047> hey everyone
[04:46] <rick_2047> does anyone talk in here
[04:47] <mbt> This is just for the Open Week.  Sessions start at 15:00 UTC today, and the host will give them here.
[04:47] <mbt> The discussion for the sessions, as well as the questions for the sessions, happens in #ubuntu-classroom-chat.
[04:47] <mbt> If you are looking for support for Ubuntu Dapper, Feisty, or Gutsy, please visit #ubuntu
[12:00] <kotfic> ADMIN
[12:00] <kotfic> oops heh
[12:00] <popey> :)
[12:04] <kiri> lol
[12:05] <kiri> that's the passord?
[12:05] <kiri> :-)
[12:05] <kotfic> first time i ever used irssi
[12:05] <popey> \o/ irssi
[12:06] <kotfic> what time is it UTC by the way? I had trouble tracking down what time zone im in heh
[12:07] <awalton__> add a second clock to your panel and set it to UTC
[12:08] <kotfic> where are the docs for adding clocks to irssi?
[12:09] <PriceChild> @now
[12:09] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 24 2007, 11:09:43 - Next meeting: Edubuntu Team in 8 hours 50 minutes
[12:09] <PriceChild> kotfic, ^
[12:10] <kotfic> merci
[12:10] <PriceChild> Which means that The openweek starts again in 3 hours, 50 minutes
[12:11] <kotfic> j'ai compris
[12:21] <effie_jayx> elkbuntu,  hola
[12:33] <kotfic> bon jour
[12:35] <Panzerboy> hello all
[12:36] <kotfic> howdy
[12:36] <Panzerboy> missed the first 2 days :)
[12:36] <popey>  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek logs available :)
[12:37] <Panzerboy> yeah, saw it in the topic, thanks :)
[12:38] <kotfic> did you catch most of it popey? anything seem particularly interesting
[12:39] <popey> I caught it all :)
[12:39] <popey> the kernel talk was interesting, from benc
[12:39] <popey> also dholbach stuff was cool
[12:40] <kotfic> how wizardly would one have to be to keep up?
[12:40] <popey> my session was _clearly_ the best :)
[12:40] <Panzerboy> heh
[12:40] <Panzerboy> what was your session about?
[12:40] <kotfic> bien sûr
[12:40] <popey> Launchpad Answer tracker
[12:40] <Panzerboy> wow, i don't even know what that is :)
[12:41] <popey> it's all explained https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekgutsy/LP_TroubleshootAnswers
[12:41] <popey> there
[12:41] <Panzerboy> okay
[12:54] <effie_jayx> popey,  was the compiling failure fixed later on?
[12:54]  * effie_jayx had to pick up his daughter at school 
[12:56] <Panzerboy> btw, the link in the topic, for the classroom transcripts, refers to the last year
[12:56] <Panzerboy> while those are interesting as well, i think that people coming here now, would like to see the transcripts of _this_ year's sessions :)
[12:57] <effie_jayx> Panzerboy,  they are in the schedule for this years
[12:57] <effie_jayx> Panzerboy, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek ... just click on the session in the schedule
[13:05] <Panzerboy> yeah, i figured it out, but it is still confusing
[13:05] <Panzerboy> i mean, the first thing you read is the topic :)
[13:15] <stelt_> can i already put up a question for Mr. Shuttleworth now? During the live event i'm at work :-(
[13:17] <LinuxJuggalo> stelt_: dont think so, Q&A is during the sessions
[13:17] <stelt_> darn
[13:18] <louis_> Whats your question? If you would like I can pass it on during the session and then you can read the log later...
[13:18] <LinuxJuggalo> unless an op is nice enough to save your question for when mark is here
[13:18] <popey> i can do that
[13:20] <LinuxJuggalo> !utc
[13:20] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about utc - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[13:21] <LinuxJuggalo> errr what was the command
[13:21] <popey> @now
[13:21] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 24 2007, 12:21:53 - Next meeting: Edubuntu Team in 7 hours 38 minutes
[13:23] <stelt_> louis_ , my question(s): Do you feel there should be more of a generalized combined effort of getting free software popular, by making it even easier, next to and including Ubuntu as one of the options? What do you think of the ideas posted at http://freedomdrive.org , a general free software installer, as easy and available as possible?
[13:24] <LinuxJuggalo> ahhh
[13:25] <stelt_> louis_ : that domain has a strong name, that i want to put to (more) good use ...
[13:26] <popey> stelt_: I'll ask that for you stelt_
[13:26] <stelt_> thanks popey
[14:45]  * willwill is away: Busy...
[14:45]  * willwill is back (gone 00:00:03)
[14:45] <willwill> sorry
[15:00] <Pricey> @now
[15:00] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 24 2007, 14:00:14 - Next meeting: Edubuntu Team in 5 hours 59 minutes
[15:03] <kai> HI@all
[15:04] <kai> Jemand da???
[15:04] <kai> ^^
[15:05] <dee> kai: ja, but you better should visit #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[15:25] <nokia78> /k #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[15:25] <nokia78> lol
[15:26] <awalton__> @now
[15:26] <awalton__> bot dead?
[15:26] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 24 2007, 14:26:19 - Next meeting: Edubuntu Team in 5 hours 33 minutes
[15:28] <Pricey> Everyone getting excited?
[15:28] <hugol1> PriceChild:  why? are you bringing girls?
[15:28] <hugol1> :-P
[15:28] <lavender_dream> excited for The Man?
[15:28] <lavender_dream> yes!
[15:28] <seer-as-shubhu> yup
[15:30] <PriceChild> !guidelines > hugol1 (please read the pm from ubotu)
[15:31] <hugol1> PriceChild: you didnt like my joke?
[15:37] <PriceChild> *points at the channel* stay
[15:40] <popey> :)
[15:40] <popey> 20 minutes until Jono-time!
[15:44] <a7p_> mmm ...
[15:57] <DrDabbles> @now
[15:57] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 24 2007, 14:57:58 - Next meeting: Edubuntu Team in 5 hours 2 minutes
[15:59] <jono> hello everyone!
[15:59] <nokia78> hi
[16:00] <PriceChild> The next session is about to being. Please feel free to start your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:00] <PriceChild> *begin
[16:00] <jono> right
[16:00] <jono> lets leave a few mins for latecomers to arrive :)
[16:00] <jono> feel free to start posting your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:00] <Pandemic> is there a main channel for ubuntu?
[16:01] <harrisony> Pandemic: #ubuntu
[16:01] <BonesolTeraDyne> Pandemic: #ubuntu maybe?
[16:01] <Pandemic> Perhaps
[16:01] <jono> the aim of this session is in which you can ask me anything you like
[16:01] <jono> it is usually about ubuntu, but people also ask some odd questions too
[16:01] <jono> the way it works is that you post a question in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix it with QUESTION
[16:02] <jono> this way they stand out and PriceChild will paste them in here for me
[16:02] <annma> hi jono :)
[16:02] <jono> I will answer your questions, and then my boss and your friend, Mark Shuttleworth will be here in the next session for two hours to answer more questions
[16:02] <jono> hey annma :)
[16:02] <jono> ok, so we all ready?
[16:03] <jono> I guess its time to begin
 Question: Are there enough Ubuntu developers? There are many (major) unresolved bugs in Gusty, e.g. ISDN-users with FritzCards (quasi-standard in Germany) could not use the internet. Ubuntu will loose much users with such errors. :(
[16:03] <jono> dee: we could always use more developers, thats for sure
[16:04] <jono> but we are not understaffed with contributors in the community
[16:04] <jono> but one of my main interests is growing the developer base in ubuntu
[16:04] <jono> and one of the key areas to do this is MOTU - if you have an interest in getting involved as an ubuntu developer, packaging is a great way to get started
[16:04] <jono> in fact, there is a packaging 101 session later today to help you all get started - delievered by dholbach
 QUESTION: Who is welcome at UDS and is their a list of daily topics so we can choose which days to attend?
[16:05] <jcastro> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/sprints/uds-boston-2007/   <-- list of topics
[16:05] <jono> DrDabbles: everyone is welcome, but remember it is a developer summit, and we are all working hard at it to discuss features and specs
[16:05] <jono> thanks jcastro
[16:06] <jono> there is a timetable available at http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/uds-boston-2007
[16:06] <jono> feel free to come along to the sessions and get involved :)
 QUESTION Hey Jono - how did you get involved in Ubuntu originally, and what is your current range of activities?
[16:07] <jono> mzungu_: heya :) well, I first heard of ubuntu back when it was on the rumour mill and not announced
[16:07] <jono> I started using it, and after a while I was looking to move roles so I emailed  Mark and asked if there is anything I could do at Canonical (I had met him a few times before, so he knew what I did)
[16:08] <jono> he said there was a job called Ubuntu Community Manager, so I applied, four interviews later (last one being in his kitchen, which was a little odd :) I got it
[16:08] <jono> in terms of activities, my job falls into a few areas:
[16:08] <jono>  * working to help the many ubuntu teams work well together, and efficiently as possible
[16:09] <jono>  * resolving conflict in various teams and helping to provide a different viewpoint in debates
[16:09] <jono>  * writing and developing governance to ensure the community is open, independent and effective
[16:09] <jono>  * acting as the community guy at Canonical to ensure we always have a good relationship with the community
[16:09] <jono>  * and I also have dholbach and jcastro working on my team, and we work together kick as much as as six legs can achieve
 QUESTION: What is your opinion on Kevin Carmony joining the Ubuntu community?
[16:10] <jono> BonesolTeraDyne: I know Kevin, and I am really proud to welcome as well as anyone else to our community
[16:11] <jono> I know he is a keen desktop linux user, and I am pleased he has come to the ubuntu family :)
 QUESTION: Im a US peace corps volunteer working in west africa,  the ONG I work for is interested in giving formations in Linux and Server Administration,  Ive looked at the LoCo wiki resources alot and saw on Canonical a section for becoming training partners,  are there other resources that I should be looking into?
[16:12] <jono> kotfic_: I recommend you email me with the details and I can help you out - jono AT ubuntu DOT com
 QUESTION: Thanks for the answer. But what can _users_ do to get such major bugs fixed in time (before a new release)?
[16:13] <jono> dee: a great way is really caring about getting that bug fixed - so, do lots of testing to work to try and reproduce the bug, ensure there is a bug report and it is up to date, and ask developers in #ubuntu-devel about the current state of the bug
[16:13] <jono> a big part of getting a bug fixed is ensuring the bug report is complete, has plenty of details of how to reproduce the bug and is ready for a dev to look at and fix
[16:13] <jono> this saves time for a dev to work to try and reproduce the bug themselves
 QUESTION: What efforts are going into the CNR features, and other pay-for services for things like CODECs for those of us in the US?
[16:14] <jono> DrDabbles: this is not really my area, and more something that the business team at canonical works on
[16:14] <jono> what I can say is that we are keen to offer additional applications and services for the ubuntu desktop and server
[16:14] <jono> and there is a bunch of people in London working on this, complete with their keen business wit and expertise
 QUESTION: A new dev cycle begin. What will be the next major focus of this cycle? Quality Assurance? Marketing? Development of support/OEM programs?
[16:15] <jono> _nand__: all of the above :P
[16:15] <jono> _nand__: each release has a focus on fixing all things - and many teams each work on different things
[16:16] <jono> for hardy we are keen to make it a really rock solid release, it is an LTS and we want to spend more time on bugfixing, and more time desktop polish
[16:16] <jono> but also, we are growing our training/oem and isv offerings, and you can see ubuntu appearing on more machines around the world
[16:16] <jono> I would also like to see community marketing become much more focussed in the next release too
[16:17] <jono> I would love to see the wider community market ubuntu in lots of areas, and this is where the loco teams come in very well
[16:17] <jono> so, its all systems go for all teams - a new ubuntu release basically means "lets all make it even better", and I am keen to see progress in all teams
 QUESTION: Do you feel that Ubuntu still has some critical growing pains that need to be fixed or that it has resolved them all (if any)?
[16:18] <jono> Sodki: we certainly have our share of growing pains, the sheer growth of ubuntu has been so quick, that the community has sometimes struggled a little to keep up
[16:18] <jono> a good example is the loco project, there are just so many new teams being formed, that we have experienced a few bottleneck problems for resources - so a new loco council is being created to help tend to these requests more effectively
[16:19] <jono> much of my job is identifying these scaling issues an helping to fix them, and if you see any, do get in touch with me
[16:19] <jono> in terms of ubuntu itself as a distro having growing pains, I think we are doing well - the software is maintaining a quality that people appreciate, and is growing steadily
[16:19] <jono> its a hugely exciting time for all of us, we are seeing real growth and taking linux and free software our to *real* people
[16:20] <jono> bring it on! :)
 QUESTION: (Hey jono :D) were do you see ubuntu and the community in 5 years time
[16:21] <jono> harrisony: I can see us growing more and more and Ubuntu being a real force in the computing industry, not just the Linux world
[16:21] <jono> I think Ubuntu will be a household name that people are aware of
[16:21] <jono> and lots of people around the world in businesses and at home will be using it
[16:21] <jono> the community will have also grown hugely, and there will be a number of additional teams working on different parts of the system
[16:22] <jono> I can also see Ubuntu going into other areas more such as security, appliances, vehicles, etc
[16:22] <jono> we are all determined to take free software and linux to the masses
[16:22] <jono> and in five years, I think we will be largely there
 QUESTION: Jorge Castro was hired by Canonical to do community relations with upstream (like GNOME, KDE, etc) and downstream (derivative distros) projects. with such a large number of these projects, will poor jcastro be able to do all that alone? (poor guy)
[16:23] <jono> Jucato: well, jorge won't be dealing with every single upstream in the world, he will be working with key upstreams
[16:23] <jono> and jorge will also be spending time working on elements that are common to all upstreams
[16:23] <mmcgrath> it hasn't been asked yet in the classrom
[16:23] <jono> he will also be jamming with me to some metal
[16:23] <jcastro> lots of metal
[16:23] <Jucato> haha :)
[16:24] <jono> \m/
[16:24] <annma> ;)
[16:24] <jono> also, upstreams are something that everyone on my team will work with, jorge will be mainly the guy who will overview our general relationship with upstreams
 QUESTION: Which part of Ubutnu do you think needs more work: Documentation or Development?
[16:24] <jcastro> Right now we have some key core ones we're focusing on, for example there will be KDE people at FOSSCamp I look forward to working with. From there I expect I'll move to the other ones that are part of what we ship out of the box (Like X.org, GNOME, pidgin, etc.). So if you think of Ubuntu as a big pie, I'm starting from the middle and working my way outwards. Obviously Debian is a huge part of that pie, so that's on the list as well.
[16:25] <jimbo> welcome to nicargua team
[16:25] <jono> BonesolTeraDyne: I would say both, but to pick one, documentation - we need a lot more docs for software in ubuntu, how the community works and how to get started
 QUESTION: How long is the development cycle for Ubuntu, although there's 6 monthly versions, when does the initial wish list for a version to be released in say 2 years start
[16:26] <jono> dgjones: we literally propose new features for the next release, but then sometimes that feature may not be ready in time, so it gets deferred, but the general aim is always the next release
 QUESTION: Will there be any integration of LP Answers, Forums, mailing lists, etc. with OEM's such as Dell? What kind of community sharing can we expect from these relationships as they develop? What is your best case scenario from a community perspective?
[16:27] <jono> sure, we would love OEMs to work with LP, thats certainly something we are keen to do
[16:27] <jono> its not something I work on myself, so again, I can't really provide specific details on the current state of this
[16:27] <jono> I also actively encourage all OEMs to participate in the community and we also encourage them to participate in their development through MOTU
[16:27] <jono> I don't understand the last bit of the question DrDabbles
 QUESTION: Who comes comes up with the names of ubuntu releases ?
[16:29] <jono> no_mind: we take a bunch of suggestions from the community (you can find the page on the wiki) and generally mark decides on the name
 QUESTION: When do you think we will start seeing TV adverts for Ubuntu?
[16:29] <jono> BonesolTeraDyne: not for a while yet, TV advertising is *hugely* expensive, and often not that much of a return on the investment
[16:30] <jono> BonesolTeraDyne: I personally think we should get all new born babies stamped with the ubuntu logo on their back
[16:30]  * jono chuckles
 QUESTION: Hey Jono , as Ubuntu Community Manager how important is for you communication with other linux communities such as debian or fedora ? do you think ubuntu community as part of debian community in general ? thanks.
[16:30] <jono> madmetal_spyros: nice nick, btw :)
[16:31] <jono> madmetal_spyros: its really important for me to have a good relationship with other companies - two good examples here are Red Hat, with my good friend Max Spevak, and Ted Haeger when he was at Novell
[16:31] <madmetal_spyros> thanks jono :)
[16:31] <jono> I am always keen to engage in discussion with other companies, and I have been kicking around the industry for a while now, and I tend to see a lot of these people when I am on the road
[16:32] <jono> as for Debian, the Debian project is *hugely* important to us
[16:32] <jono> we are grateful for the incredible work that goes on in Debian
 QUESTION: What is canonical doing to be more transparent to the community?
[16:32] <jono> mmcgrath: good question
[16:33] <jono> this is something that is really important to me, but it is a tough problem
[16:33] <jono> I am keen that we are transparent as possible, so as an example, our distro team (who works on Ubuntu) work and discuss Ubuntu in public channels such as #ubuntu-devel
[16:34] <jono> I have also worked with various departments to engage with the community, such as the marketing and training teams
[16:34] <jono> who hold meetings with the community regularly
[16:34] <jono> I also have a phone call the majority of new employees to discuss the community and how important it is to us
[16:34] <jono> I am very much committed to ensuring that I play my part in keeping Canonical "not evil"
[16:35] <hugolp> jaja
[16:35] <hugolp> nice one
[16:35] <jono> obviously some things need to be secret, its the nature of business
[16:35] <jono> but for community interaction, transparancy is the key
 QUESTION: Jono why do you hate smiley winks ;).  More seriously though,  How do you see the role of the community as a help service?
[16:35] <jono> davmor2: heh, let me clear this up - I don't hate smiley winks, I hate their over use
[16:36] <jono> an example:
 hi jono ;)
 hello, dude, hows things
 good, thanks ;) ;)
 ...ok, something wrong with you?
[16:36] <davmor2> :)
 no I am fine ;)
 go away please
[16:36] <jono> :)
[16:36] <jono> onto the question in hand...
[16:37] <jono> the community is critical in helping ubuntu users, and the work in #ubuntu, on the forums and on the LP answer tracker is nothing short of amazing
[16:37] <jono> helping people with ubuntu is a really important community contribution, and keep up the great work :)
 QUESTION: Hi.  As a business person selling computers with ubuntu pre-installed are there any marketing materials or other forms of resources available for that purpose?
[16:38] <jono> bahadunn: send me an email, and I will forward it to the right person
[16:38] <jono> bahadunn: our OEM could probably help here
[16:38] <jimbo> will you raise the suport for the LoCo ?
[16:38] <jono> jimbo: questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[16:38] <bahadunn> jono: okay no problem
 QUESTION: Opeth or Symphony X? :-)
[16:39] <jono> Sodki: ooooh....I like Opeth, if not a little emo at times, Symphony X are a great power metal band, so both :)
 QUESTION: Have you ever considered merging communities and available packages with other desktop-oriented distributions? E.g. Fedora?
[16:40] <jono> savvas: where it makes sense, its always wise to merge communities, but the direction and focus of a community such as Fedora is different
[16:40] <jono> there are different technological differences and different direction and scope
[16:40] <jcastro> (also) we're not just a desktop-oriented distro, we have an awesome server piece as well
[16:41] <jono> again though, where it makes sense to combine forces, lets go, but I think its fairly rare that happens
[16:41] <savvas> (Followup) where is actually Ubuntu heading?
 QUESTION: Do you think Ubuntu will be an option to have pre-installed from major brick & morter stores like Best Buy & CompUSA? If so, how long do think until we see that?
 QUESTION: has there been any thought to boxing and selling Ubuntu in CompUSA or Best Buy or whatever big comptuer store?  At least a good number ofAmercians oddly seem to want the box and printed manual and pre pressed CD yet dont want to wait to order one online...
[16:41] <jono> savvas: world domination, one computer at a time
[16:42] <jono> pdragon: absolutely, its gonna happen, its just a matter of time
[16:42] <jono> pdragon: as for timescales, I have no idea, but I hope in the next year or so
[16:43] <jono> harkonen: right now boxed copies are not on our roadmap, but who knows? this is not really something I do - more of a business team thing
[16:43] <jono> problem with boxed sets is that they age quickly for a produce that appears every six months
 QUESTION: Do you think Ubuntu will ever be used by big name video game console makers, such as Nintendo?
[16:44] <jono> BonesolTeraDyne: depends on what you mean? if you mean running on the console, then Ubuntu already runs on PS3
[16:44] <jono> if you mean as a development workstation, I think it could really happen - we have already seen large CGI studios using Linux
[16:44] <BonesolTeraDyne> No, I mean used as the default OS for the console\handheld.
[16:45] <jono> BonesolTeraDyne: right, I think it could be an option - particularly with ubuntu mobile work going on - its a big question, but who knows what is possible? ubuntu mobile offers lots of potential for mobile devices
 QUESTION: jono, many people judge the community due to the fact that LAUNCHPAD is Closed source. what can we as comunity say to avodi conflict and still look good
[16:46] <jono> stebandido: well, the LP issue is there, and LP will be open source at some point
[16:46] <jono> but personally, I care for ubuntu, and ubuntu is an open source operating system
[16:47] <jono> sure, LP is a key chunk of how we make ubuntu, but everyone needs to make their own opinion on how much that affects their use of ubuntu
[16:47] <jono> for some, LP being closed source will prevent them using ubuntu, and there is nothing we can do about that until LP is open sourced
[16:47] <jono> to be honest, It think its an edge case, few people cite LP being closed source as a real blocker for using ubuntu
 QUESTION: Is there more likelyhood of seeing the ubuntu developers and teams participate more in the forums, and any chance we might see mark in there a little more often?
[16:49] <jono> Bonzodog: the thing about developers it that they typically use tools and processes that suit them, and for communication this has traditionally been mailing lists - I know some devs go on the forums, and we are keen to help the forums community contribute ideas and features to ubuntu, but most devs seem to prefer using mailing lists
[16:49] <jono> this is not a smite on the forums, its just the way certain groups of people tend to work, in the same way that programmers live in bug trackers but artists often don't
 QUESTION: Which do you perfer, Yahoo or Google?
[16:49] <jono> BonesolTeraDyne: Google
[16:49] <jono> :)
 QUESTION: First of all thanks to you guys for your work Ubuntu is just awesome ;) Here's my question what would be the impact on Ubuntu if Debian would collapse.
[16:50] <jono> peppych: thanks! :)
[16:50] <jono> peppych: if Debian went away, that would be very, very bad
[16:50] <jono> Debian is hugely important to us
[16:51] <jono> but its very unlikely Debian will go away, in the same way the kernel won't go away
[16:51] <jono> it is a strong, community centric project - this means it will always be
[16:51] <Gareth> .
[16:51] <jcastro> debian is more popular than ever from what I've seen
[16:51] <jono> so its not a worry for me, but I am keen to ensure our relationship with Debian is strong
 Question: Do you meet in a Regular basis with the local Team Leaders, so you can debate common strategy's for the community? Do you feel important to this kind of things happen (discuss common strategy's)?
[16:52] <jono> urbanf I meet loco leaders whenever I can when I am on the road
[16:52] <jono> and there are regular loco meetings
[16:52] <jono> but I will also be looking to hold a loco sprint in London sometime soon and I will invite some key loco leaders to that sprint
 QUESTION: Speaking of metal my favorite is living sacrifice.  What is your favorite band?
[16:53] <jono> bahadunn: fave band is Overkill, followed by Cannibal Corpse, then Decapited, then AC/DC :)
[16:53] <bahadunn> ah
 QUESTION: Any plans for canonical to dive into creating community/ open hardware along with software. Something like openmoko and neo 1973
[16:53] <Mez> woo for cannibal corpse ;)
[16:53] <bahadunn> sounds like my style
[16:53] <jono> bahadunn: send me a mail with that band's detail - would love to check them out
[16:53] <jono> no_mind: ooh, good question - no plans of yet, we are focussing our efforts on getting ubuntu out to the masses
[16:54] <jono> the hardware game is an expensive one
[16:54] <jono> and we need to focus our efforts on key targets
[16:54] <bahadunn> jono: no problem
[16:54] <jono> one big misconception with canonical is that because Mark is a millionaire and runs the company, that we somehow have an unlimited pot of money - we still have budgets, strategy and business plans, so we need to be focussed on key areas
 QUESTION: what do you plan to do on the community side to promote the kubuntu/edubuntu/xubuntu communities, (if anything)
[16:55] <jono> Mez: I will be working with Jorge to ensure those distros get the focus and attention they need
[16:55] <Mez> jono, that depends on your definition of "need"
[16:55] <jono> we want to encourage and promote all of them, as they kick major chunks of undercarriage :)
[16:56] <jono> Mez: inded
[16:56] <jono> indeed
[16:56] <no_mind> jono, question is about extending the reach of ubuntu. Something like a "ubuntu machine" on the lines of apple
[16:56] <jono> its a big subject, and one I can't really cover in detail in 3 mins here
[16:56] <jono> no_mind: right, like I say we are focussing on the ubuntu software right now
 <QUESTION>how active is ubuntu mobile at moment i mean progress?
[16:57] <jono> seer-as-shubhu: it is making great progress, lots of work is going into the project, and see the latest team report at wiki.ubuntu.com/TeamReports for details on recent progress
 QUESTION: How does project indiana and Ian Murdock's work at Sun affect Ubuntu and Debian
[16:58] <jono> Bonzodog: not something I have looked into in any great detail, but I do have a TODO list item to call Ian
 QUESTION: Hi, Don't you plan to develop together with Debian things like base-install, apt, dpkg, modconf etc ? (If I have mentioned some which are not developed by Debian sorry)
[16:58] <jono> laco: I recommend you speak to dholbach about this
[16:58] <jono> he is a better person to answer
[16:58] <jono> right, my time is up!
[16:58] <jono> thanks everyone for your questions!
[16:59] <jimbo> thx for the answers
[16:59] <seer-as-shubhu> thnx jono
[16:59] <harrisony> jono is cool
[16:59] <hendrixski> thank you jono
[16:59] <BonesolTeraDyne> thanks jono
[16:59] <tuxmaniac> :)
[16:59] <peppych> thanks you jono
[16:59] <Bonzodog> Thanks Jono
[16:59] <dee> thx jono
[16:59] <stebandido> jono,  you rock
[16:59] <jono> thanks everyone! :)
[16:59] <jono> keep up the great work everyone :)
[16:59] <laco> jono, thanks
[17:00] <Tursiops> thanks jono
[17:00] <mruiz> jono, rock on!
[17:00] <jono> :)
[17:01] <jono> ok, Mark is up next
[17:01] <jono> he will be here soon
[17:01] <marius> Hi Jono, nice to meet you :D
[17:01] <Belutz> sabdfl, hi :)
[17:01] <sabdfl> evening / morning / afternoon all
[17:01] <Belutz> sabdfl, greetings from Indonesia
[17:01] <jono> marius: thanks :)
[17:01] <Seeker`> lo sabdfl
[17:01] <Jucato> salut sabdfl!
[17:01] <jono> sabdfl: hello boss
[17:01] <jimbo> hi
[17:02] <sabdfl> salut indeed!
[17:02] <fetova> hi :)
[17:02]  * tuxmaniac waves from India to sabdfl 
[17:02] <madrazr> Good Evening sabdfl
[17:02] <sabdfl> jono: all systems go?
[17:02] <no_mind> sabdfl, hello!
[17:02] <OrcoFortran> Good morning :) ET time USA
[17:02] <jono> sabdfl: yes indeed
[17:02] <sabdfl> PriceChild: roll on
 QUESTION: will canonical rais the suport for LoCos?
[17:03] <sabdfl> jimbo: are there specific things you have in mind?
[17:03] <jimbo> disc
[17:03] <sabdfl> i think we do quite a bit already, wrt hosting, cd's, events
[17:03] <sabdfl> we looked at sending cd's to loco teams for redistribution, but it didn't work well in the end
[17:03] <sabdfl> but we do respond to some requests
[17:04] <sabdfl> we can't send everything requested, it would cost millions
[17:04] <sabdfl> and we would rather support more floss development
[17:04] <sabdfl> PriceChild: next?
 QUESTION: What grand plans do you have for Ubuntu on the Mobile and embedded platform?
[17:04] <sabdfl> that's a very exciting project
[17:05] <sabdfl> linux is going to be in every home, and office, in the form of consumer electronics
[17:05] <sabdfl> it started with set-top boxes
[17:05] <sabdfl> but now a lot of electronics is powerful enough to run linux
[17:05] <sabdfl> and soon, that will all go mobile
[17:05] <sabdfl> so, not so much grand plans as providing a reliable platform for people to build great products
[17:06] <sabdfl> bring the best of ubuntu - free software, free license, standard platform with apt and security updates, to that community
[17:06] <sabdfl> ok?
[17:06] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: (in a good sense) Why Debian instead of all the beautiful distros? What made you choose this one particularly? Is it the packaging capabilities/administration or the community that would most probably grow as the years go by? :)
[17:06] <sabdfl> first, the philosophy of (a) license precision, (b) freedom, (c) quality
[17:06] <sabdfl> that makes debian unique - it's a superb forum for building a shared, common platform
[17:07] <sabdfl> and we want to be part of a broader community like that
[17:07] <sabdfl> second, because I have been a DD since 1996 :-)
[17:07] <sabdfl> third, because of the breadth of packages
[17:07] <sabdfl> our relationship with debian is very important, and we work hard at it
[17:07] <sabdfl> sometimes i'm disappointed by individuals there, but in general i still think it's a good partnership
[17:07] <sabdfl> and i think we give a lot back
[17:08] <sabdfl> which people often don't measure
[17:08] <sabdfl> but i think we contribute more to debian than any other organisation, or derivative, so i feel good about it
[17:08] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION: Hi Mark. I know UDS is some days ahead but do you already have a "plan" for Hardy in mind? Or will it just be a LTS-release?
[17:08] <sabdfl> :-)
[17:08] <sabdfl> the plan is only ever complete after UDS
[17:09] <sabdfl> i know server and mobile will both get a lot of attention
[17:09] <sabdfl> with folks from upstream, partners, customers etc all there to talk about them
[17:09] <sabdfl> LTS is very important - it does influence how we run the release and plan features
[17:09] <sabdfl> as for specifics - come to Boston next week!
[17:09] <sabdfl> next!
[17:09] <Realvz> What is Ubuntu doing to attract more vendors and make ubuntu laptops and desktops more available to general public...to people who havent even heard of Linux or even M$
[17:09] <jack_>  /quit
 QUESTION: What kinds of partnership opportunities with Canonical are available to entrepreneurs who want to start a business, and use Linux in their office and/or in their product (i.e. a phone or an appliance)?
[17:10] <PriceChild> Realvz, questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[17:10] <sabdfl> We have a range of partner programs - training, engineering, oem, isv, ihv
[17:10] <sabdfl> and others too
[17:10] <sabdfl> best person to speak with is Malcolm Yates - malcolm.yates@canonical.com
[17:10] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: how do you guys measure the popularity of ubuntu ? I mean what metrics are used
[17:11] <sabdfl> we have some visibility on downloads
[17:11] <sabdfl> more than 1 million people came to ubuntu.com/download last week :-)
[17:11] <sabdfl> but remember, we have 300 mirrors
[17:11] <sabdfl> so that's only a limited view
[17:11] <sabdfl> we don't have any registration or hidden monitoring
[17:12] <sabdfl> but ubuntu machines, like any OS "look slightly different" on the net
[17:12] <sabdfl> apache server tag lines, or browser lines
[17:12] <sabdfl> and so ubuntu users leave a footprint, and we can measure growth pretty accurately
[17:12] <sabdfl> needless to say the community continues to grow at a phenomenal pace
[17:12] <sabdfl> next!
 QUESTION Hi Mark - Of major importance to the growth of Ubuntu and Linux in general is hardware compatibility.  Is the message getting across to the hardware manufacturers?
[17:12] <sabdfl> yes!
[17:12] <sabdfl> partly, announcements like Dell's and other OEM's help there
[17:13] <sabdfl> people who provide them with components want to say "hey, our stuff works with Linux too!"
[17:13] <sabdfl> also, the fact that consumer electronics (which have a lot of Linux work going on) and PC's are converging, helps
[17:14] <sabdfl> if you make a bluetooth chip, you might as well sell that to a smartphone manufacturer, who could well have linux, as a laptop manufacturer, with windows
[17:14] <sabdfl> that helps a lot
[17:14] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: will ubuntu participate in any of the hardware projects apart from intels? i.e olpc or openmoko
[17:14] <sabdfl> i would love to have participated in OLPC but we were excluded by them, mainly i think because we were babies in the same cot, we were very new when they started
[17:15] <sabdfl> perhaps that opportunity will come around again
[17:15] <sabdfl> it's a beautiful project
[17:15] <sabdfl> were not heavily involved with openmoko, though i think their work is super
[17:15] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Many of us used to read your blog at markshuttleworth.com, it had a ton of great insight into more than just Ubuntu, but into Open Source and the computer industry as a whole.  It was so inspiring.  And then it just stopped for the last 3 months. What happened? Will we see more?
[17:15] <sabdfl> mea culpa, i've just been engrossed in the rest of life
[17:16] <sabdfl> i haven't stopped writing, just trying to catch up on email
[17:16] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: there have been press statements in the past about you and Canonical giving more support to Kubuntu and KDE, like hiring KDE/Kubuntu developers, raising Kubuntu's status, etc. Any updates on those?
[17:16] <sabdfl> i would love to do everything simultaneously in Ubuntu and Kubuntu, but we can't
[17:16] <sabdfl> that would take *more* than double the resources
[17:16] <sabdfl> because of coordination
[17:16] <sabdfl> i think the Kubuntu team does a superb job
[17:17] <sabdfl> both in terms of keeping up, adding new features, and quality
[17:17] <Hobbsee> hooray Riddell!
[17:17] <sabdfl> indeed :-)
[17:17] <sabdfl> also, what's interesting, is that we see a lot of community participation in kubuntu in areas that Canonical does the work in ubuntu
[17:17] <sabdfl> so perhaps it's better this way? the community feels a lot of ownership there, and i'd be loathe to lose that
[17:18] <sabdfl> we also see amazing participation in ubuntu, more and more core devs in ubuntu are not canonical, which is exactly what i'd like to see
[17:18] <sabdfl> hopefully, some day, the majority of the MOTU council, Tech Board and CC will be non-Canonical
[17:18] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: How much is the Dell pre-install deal costing Canonical / install?
[17:19] <sabdfl> nada :-)
[17:19] <sabdfl> that was driven by Dell, based on demand from their customers
[17:19] <sabdfl> we get the opportunity to sell support, which is great
[17:19] <sabdfl> but we don't pay them to install it, and they don't pay us unless the customer buys support
[17:19] <sabdfl> so go on, recommend those machines *with support* to your mates please!
[17:20] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Mark Have things gone to plan so far?
[17:20] <sabdfl> no :-)
[17:20] <sabdfl> i didn't expect us to have the mobile initiative, for example, that was a great opportunity that was unexpected
[17:20] <sabdfl> some things have taken longer, but most things have grown faster than i dreamed
[17:21] <sabdfl> i think we all wanted to build this, but we didn't know if people really needed it or wanted it
[17:21] <sabdfl> that much is clear now :-)
[17:21] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Whatever happened to 'Free Software Laptop'? Do you think PPC a feasible architecture for that?
 QUESTION:has there been enough interest in a Free software laptop? have any laptop/desktop vender's been contacted or currently working on making this a reality that you know of?
[17:21] <sabdfl> slytherin: PPC is in a tricky position for consumer or developer hardware right now
[17:21] <sabdfl> hard to see how they would amortise the cost of development across a small demand base
[17:22] <sabdfl> i think its more likely that a large manufacturer adopts that as a standard requirement
[17:22] <sabdfl> for example, LinuxBIOS and free-software-friendly components
[17:22] <sabdfl> it's getting easier and easier
[17:22] <sabdfl> as far as I know, it is not yet a real plan
[17:23] <sabdfl> as soon as it is, i will send details to a list that folks are signing up to, that currently sees zero traffic (deliberately)
[17:23] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Have you considered advertising for Ubuntu (either through traditional and expensive media -- think of the firefox page ad in the New York Times), or through other means (a funny yet informative ad, which could be the next youtube/email forward/word of mouth hit)?  What about an advertising partnership with one of the hardware providers, like Dell.
[17:23] <sabdfl> we have considered that, but with some exceptions we prefer to spend money on development, so it gets better and better, and folks talk about it for that reason
[17:23] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What is Canonical doing to bring the word to people like, say, my mom, who is definitely *not* aware of the F/OSS movement (Print ads, etc.)?
[17:24] <PriceChild> whoops
 QUESTION: About the mobile ubuntu, do you have any plans to cooperate with some companies? Like openmoko.com (Neo Base mobile phone) or any other company?
[17:24] <sabdfl> Otenkiya: well, ubuntu got covered in NYT, and WSJ, and Financial Times
[17:24] <sabdfl> does your Mom read any of those?
[17:25] <sabdfl> i think we are getting people excited about an alternative, and when they explore further they learn about FLOSS
[17:25] <sabdfl> savvas: OpenMoko and MID are different segments
[17:25] <sabdfl> but i'm interested in collaboration with them
[17:25] <sabdfl> just haven't had time to go and research them, or they haven't come knocking
[17:25] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: I believe that videogames could be a killer application to spread Linux into the mass-market. Do yout think there is a chance that some *big* houses (like EA, for example) will ever release their top-class videogames for Ubuntu?
[17:26] <sabdfl> yes, but most likely on a linux-based console initially
[17:26] <sabdfl> PC-linux is very hard to support at scale because of fragmentation
[17:26] <sabdfl> perhaps ubuntu might be the tip of a wedge there
[17:26] <sabdfl> i don't know!
[17:26] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: sabdfl, I just had a meeting with Intel Indonesia, they want to try bundling their classmate pc with edubuntu, what should I do?
[17:27] <sabdfl> i think 8.04 edubuntu will rock with the ClassmatePC
[17:27] <sabdfl> they can do pilots with 7.10 to help shape 8.04
[17:27] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What is your personal opinion of the direction that the commercial Linux conferences such as LinuxWorld & OSCon are going vs. some of the regional shows such as Ohio Linux Fest, Linux Fest NorthWest and Southern California Linux Expo?  And does Ubuntu plan to shift its involvment away from the commercial shows in favor of regional shows?
[17:27] <sabdfl> the ubuntu community is generally well represented at regional shows
[17:28] <sabdfl> and in many senses those are more interesting
[17:28] <sabdfl> you meet people you can maintain an ongoing relationship with, support one another, learn from one another
[17:28] <sabdfl> Canonical can only attend a relatively few events, so it's natural to focus on the bigger ones
[17:28] <sabdfl> i enjoyed OSCON a lot this year
[17:28] <sabdfl> will probably be there again
[17:29] <sabdfl> i've been on the road 60% of 2007, mostly for Ubuntu, i don't think i could go to more events
[17:29] <sabdfl> and others feel the same!
[17:29] <sabdfl> but if we can help you represent ubuntu at a local event, please ask
[17:29] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Do canonical sponsor other FLOSS projects (and/or are they willing to) other than ubuntu?
[17:29] <sabdfl> Bzr is a major one we sponsor - it's really amazing, and as of today is the fastest Python-based version control system for most projects
[17:29] <sabdfl> heh, very glad to be able to say that :-)
[17:30] <sabdfl> though i'm sure the others will all come up with new ideas too!
[17:30] <sabdfl> if you haven't tried it, bazaar-vcs.org is the place
[17:30] <sabdfl> and watch out for the next release, i think next week, which has that performance enhancement
[17:30] <sabdfl> also, lots of things related to the distro
[17:30] <Mez> sabdfl, I've tried a lot of it, trying to convince work to switch ;)
[17:30] <sabdfl> usplash, ubiquity, casper, etc
[17:31] <sabdfl> i personally also fund SchoolTool, which i think is important
[17:31] <sabdfl> and there are others too
[17:31] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Have you spoken to Kevin Carmony yet now that he has announced his joining our community; he made a big thread in the forums about it
[17:31] <sabdfl> i have, he's up to interesting things and of course has a unique perspective, so i'm glad he joined the ubuntu community
[17:32] <sabdfl> and will try to fix any bugs he reports :-)
[17:32] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: "our relationship with debian is very important, and we work hard at it" > do you have plans to be separated from debian in the future, as in, not to be so dependant on debian's release?
[17:32] <sabdfl> we aren't ever dependent on a debian release
[17:32] <sabdfl> but we want to stay part of the community
[17:32] <sabdfl> we collaborate around their unstable, always-moving tip, called "sid" or "unstable"
[17:32] <sabdfl> there are lots of places where we actually lead
[17:33] <sabdfl> but we have no plans to go off in a totally different direction
[17:33] <sabdfl> though, i wish debian would make it easier to collaborate with them sometimes
[17:33] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Thanks for the invitation to Boston. It's a little but too far from here. But as you mentioned Ubuntu Mobile. What's the status? Can you really release a final in april next year?
[17:34] <sabdfl> dee: yes, i think our first version will release in April, with 8.04
[17:34] <sabdfl> have you tried it?
[17:34] <sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/CreatingAnImageForUMEDevice
[17:34] <sabdfl> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/HildonDesktopManualProcedure
[17:34] <sabdfl> join the community
[17:35] <sabdfl> it's quite hard core and fun to create something like this from scratch
[17:35] <sabdfl> i think we can help to define the handheld interface of the future
[17:35] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Follow up the the vendor HW support question. I've heard Dell is getting drivers made but keeping them to themselves so as to make buying a Ubuntu-Dell more attractive. Is this true? They are not putting the drivers out in the wild?
[17:35]  * Hobbsee thinks this would be a prime question for mdomsch
[17:36] <sabdfl> as far as I know this is entirely untrue
[17:36] <mdomsch> _MMA_, I concur with sabdfl
[17:36] <sabdfl> the dell guys have been really open to working together on the desktops
[17:36] <sabdfl> and everything i've seen has been pushed out to the public repos
[17:36] <sabdfl> it's easier for everyone that way
[17:36] <sabdfl> and it helps sell more dell machines to linux lovers - both of ubuntu and other distros
[17:36] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION:  Grumpy Groundhog — Is it going to become a reality?
[17:37] <sabdfl> mbt: i sure hope so! have you heard of PPAs?
[17:37] <sabdfl> https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart
 sabdfl: Yep.
[17:37] <sabdfl> this is a way to take any package in ubuntu, change it, and send it to us for building and packaging
[17:37] <sabdfl> essentially, it allows anyone to have a public apt archive
[17:38] <sabdfl> you can build against any ubuntu release
[17:38] <sabdfl> either brand new packages
[17:38] <sabdfl> or modified ubuntu ones
[17:38] <sabdfl> hopefully, that's the start of Grumpy
[17:38] <sabdfl> [for those not in the know, Grumpy is about building daily packages from upstream]
[17:38] <sabdfl> but PPAs totally rock
[17:38] <sabdfl> a superb way to learn about packaging
[17:38] <sabdfl> or just to Get Stuff Done
[17:39] <sabdfl> or test patches you want to submit to your friends or Ubuntu or Debian
[17:39] <sabdfl> enjoy!
[17:39] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Compiz by default was a 'gutsy' thing to do for 7.10.  What do you think the next big thing will be for the Ubuntu Desktop?
[17:39] <sabdfl> interesting...
[17:39] <sabdfl> i wonder if virtualisation on the desktop is that far away
[17:40] <sabdfl> at the moment, it's mostly a server thing
[17:40] <sabdfl> but it's huge
[17:40] <sabdfl> and i suspect there's a desktop angle waiting in the wings
[17:40] <sabdfl> xen, or kvm, are very cool
[17:40] <sabdfl> so thats something to explore
[17:40] <sabdfl> also, perhaps, finding some commonality between the mobile world and the desktop / laptop world
[17:41] <sabdfl> really pushing the UI harder
[17:41] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: RMS recently appealed to RadioHead users to pressurise them to provide media in Ogg version too. Do you think such targeted campaigns with the support of users of such services (i.e. not Ubuntu-friendly) will help or hinder Ubuntu's cause?
[17:41] <sabdfl> help, definitely
[17:41] <sabdfl> free software is part of a broader movement, of collaboration, sharing and services
[17:41] <sabdfl> so, raising the profile of one raises the profile of all
[17:41] <sabdfl> i would love to see the world switch to ogg
[17:42] <sabdfl> there's lots of engineers at SONY or Creative that don't realise how great .ogg is
[17:42] <sabdfl> and that you can have genuinely awesome tech freely available for the whole industry
[17:42] <sabdfl> that's the future
[17:42] <sabdfl> so we need to encourage people to explore that future, in all fields
[17:42] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION:  Has the recent lawsuit by Acacia against Red Hat and Novell persuaded you to reconsider a patent deal with Microsoft?
[17:42] <sabdfl> no, not at all
[17:43] <sabdfl> remember, novell did a deal that i think was poor for free software, and they still got sued by acacia
[17:43] <sabdfl> when i last blogged about this, i pointed out that the real enemy is not microsoft
[17:43] <sabdfl> because they are NOT going to sue
[17:44] <sabdfl> the enemy is patent trolls, and here we have a good example of that coming true
[17:44] <sabdfl> so there's no additional pressure to do a bad deal with microsoft
[17:44] <sabdfl> though, i would do a good deal with microsoft, if i thought it was helpful to the cause of free software
[17:44] <sabdfl> it's not infeasible that microsoft could start to see benefits to themselves in being aligned on this issue
[17:45] <sabdfl> they settle a LOT of patent troll suits every year
[17:45] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: what are the next areas that you feel canonical will enter into (like mobile), in the future?  what are your dreams for that?
[17:45] <sabdfl> Hobbsee: Canonical, or Ubuntu?
[17:45] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: both, i think.
[17:45] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: pick which half you want to answer. ubuntu more so.
[17:45] <sabdfl> because the latter is now as much in the hands of our community as it is in the hands of canonical
[17:46] <Hobbsee> right, so answer the canonical half :)
[17:46] <sabdfl> i'm intrigued by the work being done by derivatives
[17:46] <sabdfl> like ubuntu studio
[17:46] <sabdfl> i think we will see that some of them take off
[17:46] <sabdfl> then we will support them more directly
[17:46] <sabdfl> like we do kubuntu
[17:46] <Hobbsee> [02:46] <_MMA_> ;)
[17:46] <sabdfl> but the community can innovate faster than we can
[17:46] <sabdfl> so, if you have a great idea, chase it down, make a derivative, use PPAs and lead the way
[17:46] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What is Canonical going to do/doing to enable the GNOME Online Desktop?  Will Canonical be offering an online component (optionally subscription-based)?
[17:47] <sabdfl> not sure yet - it's interesting, but there are lots of different questions about how it will work
[17:47] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: If you could change something in the ubuntu project what would you change and why?
[17:48] <sabdfl> i would like to have a better relationship with debian developers, but alas i think a vocal few make that difficult
[17:48] <sabdfl> i love to see DD's who participate directly in ubuntu, and of course a lot of ubuntu devs are DD's
[17:48] <sabdfl> so that helps
[17:48] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What was it like up there, "in the skies"? Were you terrified in any of your space-flights? :)
[17:48] <sabdfl> only one space flight so far :-)
[17:49] <sabdfl> at least, in real life
[17:49] <sabdfl> lots of time in simulators :-)
[17:49] <sabdfl> never terrified, but certainly tense and focused
[17:49] <sabdfl> you are terrified the day before
[17:49] <sabdfl> when you finally decided to do it
[17:49] <sabdfl> but on the day... it's focus, focus, YEAH!
[17:49] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Other KDE distros are now gettng a lot better. And users have been comparing Ubuntu and Kubuntu features a lot. Do you expect Kubuntu to be able to stand up to that level of quality, and if not, are there plans to address that?
[17:50] <sabdfl> i think Riddell is the best person to answer that!
[17:50] <sabdfl> i do think kubuntu is an excellent platform for kde lovers and developers
[17:50] <sabdfl> one of the first to make new technologies available
[17:50] <sabdfl> and of course it has all the hardware support that ubuntu does
[17:50] <sabdfl> and the size of the community is amazing
 I think we're the best of course :)
[17:50] <Hobbsee> how are we making the new technologies available, when we're often a release behind ubuntu?
[17:51] <sabdfl> but of course there will be excellence elsewhere, and that's healthy
[17:51] <sabdfl> next?
[17:51] <sabdfl> Hobbsee: KDE 4?
[17:51] <sabdfl> next?
 Question: Do you or Canonical have plans for additional revenue streams beyond selling support for Ubuntu? Firefox for example directs traffic to google directly from the browser.
[17:51] <sabdfl> yes, there are lots of services we provide
[17:52] <sabdfl> for example, we do contract engineering for people who want to modify ubuntu in specific ways
[17:52] <sabdfl> i think each of the platforms will give us multiple streams of revenue
[17:52] <sabdfl> which helps make ubuntu even better
[17:52] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: is it ok if we approach local laptop vendor so they have products with ubuntu preinstalled?
[17:52] <sabdfl> hell yes!
[17:52] <Hobbsee> just don't take a crowbar with you....
[17:52] <sabdfl> and you can direct them to maria.bonnefon@canonical.com too if they have questions
[17:52] <Hobbsee> [02:52] <Belutz> great!
[17:53] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: why is it that you decided to use kubuntu on your personal laptop ?
[17:53] <sabdfl> desktop
[17:53] <Mez> yeah, someone corrected me in -chat
[17:53] <sabdfl> i have other folks at home who are used to windows, and it's a bit more similar
[17:53] <Hobbsee> [02:53] <Mez> yeah, someone corrected me in -chat
[17:53] <sabdfl> also, i wanted to be familiar with both
[17:53] <sabdfl> and for development purposes, i just need a shell
[17:53] <sabdfl> and vim, of course :-)
[17:53] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: when are you planning a download  mirror for INDIA ?
[17:54] <sabdfl> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+archivemirrors
[17:54] <sabdfl> there is one in Madras
[17:54] <sabdfl> please feel free to organise more!
[17:54] <sabdfl> write to the IT departments of universities
[17:55] <sabdfl> it's easy for them to setup both CD mirrors (for the install ISO) and archive mirrors for packages
[17:55] <sabdfl> next?
 < stelt_> question(s): Do you feel there should be more of a generalized combined effort of getting free software popular, by making it even easier, next to and including Ubuntu as one of the options? What do you think of the ideas posted at http://freedomdrive.org , a general free software installer, as easy and available as possible?
[17:55] <sabdfl> i think those rock
[17:55] <sabdfl> we supported the Open CD for that reason
[17:55] <sabdfl> it's important to get people using free software on windows, for example
[17:55] <sabdfl> it familiarises them with the idea
[17:56] <sabdfl> then they say "why can't ALL software be like this"?
[17:56] <sabdfl> that's why i think Firefox and Mozilla are so important
[17:56] <sabdfl> and why i was so saddened that the Iceweasel thing was turned into such a nasty mess
[17:56] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: We are all aware of Steve Ballmer's passion for developers, do you plan to show any similar passion in the future?
[17:57] <sabdfl> yes, but i don't plan to try to match his armpits, rather buy in artificial pherome machines or somethin'
[17:57] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What are your plans on improving Ubuntu's usability on laptops?  I've been running 7.10 on mine, and while it has improved there are still many rough edges (notably suspend/resume seems to break often - i.e. it worked fine in the beta but is broken in the final release).  Is there any team I can become involved in to help resolve the issues here?
[17:57] <sabdfl> kernel team, and acpi with mjg59 are good places to start
[17:57] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Would it make sense for Ubuntu to make use of cross-distro information gathering projects like smolt?
[17:58] <sabdfl> "acpi with mjg59", sounds like a cooking class!
[17:58] <sabdfl> and it is. cooking with gas :-)
[17:58] <sabdfl> DaSkreech_: sometimes, but we already have a hardware compatibility program, so not in that case
[17:58] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Hi Mark! On your daily computing, have you ever had a problem that Ubuntu OS couldn't solve it and you needed some application that runs on Windows or Mac OS X? If so, how did you solved that problem? :)
[17:59] <sabdfl> only thing that's on my todo list that i don't think i can do from Linux is update the firmware on my Nokia phone
[17:59] <sabdfl> i do have a Mac at home too, which I use for iTunes downloads
[17:59] <sabdfl> haven't booted windows in a LONG time
[17:59] <sabdfl> except to show people that you can in a virtual machine, under Ubuntu :-)
[18:00] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What do you think Debian can do to make it easier to collaborate with them?
[18:00] <sabdfl> i think this needs to be the last one
[18:00] <popey> you have two hours allotted
[18:00] <sabdfl> samgee: most important, don't accept flaming DD's when they talk in constructive terms about Ubuntu
[18:01] <PriceChild> popey, pm
[18:01] <popey> got it
[18:01] <sabdfl> the thing that makes our life most difficult is that DD's are afraid to talk about positive experiences or opportunities for collaboration, because some folks will flame them mercilessly, as if they were somehow traitors
[18:01] <sabdfl> which is, imo, insane
[18:01] <sabdfl> i think it will take a strong leader in debian who realises and is willing to state, publicly, that ubuntu is good for debian
[18:01] <sabdfl> we strive to take debian to places where it will not go alone
[18:01] <Hobbsee> Currently, there's effort going into a combined debian and ubuntu QA team, as well, so that the fixes get back in more effectively.
[18:02] <sabdfl> and that's good
[18:02] <sabdfl> last question?
[18:02] <popey> sabdfl: you taking a break?
[18:02] <sabdfl> oh
[18:02] <popey> sabdfl: you have another hour :)
[18:02] <sabdfl> ok, i can do longer
 QUESTION: Have you voted for the gibbon yet?  (http://nicubunu.blogspot.com/2007/10/distro-deathmatch-werewolf-versus.html)  ;)
[18:02] <PriceChild> He's hard :)
[18:02] <sabdfl> fingers are glowing :-)
[18:02] <sabdfl> voted, thanks :-)
[18:02] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Why did you start Ubuntu in the first place instead of contributing to an already existing distribution?
[18:03] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: you'll cope.  maybe your next initiative should be irc-over-brainwaves.
[18:03] <sabdfl> thully: dan frye from IBM puts it best
[18:03] <sabdfl> he's referring to the linux kernel specifically
[18:04] <sabdfl> he says that "we have separated research and development, from productisation"
[18:04] <sabdfl> (sorry, RL conversation)
[18:05] <sabdfl> what he means is that the linux kernel guys, at kernel.org and on the LKML, actually care ONLY about productisation
[18:05] <sabdfl> erk
[18:05] <sabdfl> about kernel core development
[18:05] <sabdfl> while the distros care ONLY about productisation
[18:05] <sabdfl> and that's PERFECT
[18:06] <sabdfl> in a normal software company, the SAME people have to be both good at R&D, during the early phase of the product cycle, and also good at integration / QA / documentation, at the end of the cycle
[18:06] <sabdfl> but with the linux kernel, we separate those two out perfectly
[18:06] <sabdfl> so, i know Debian very well indeed
[18:06] <sabdfl> and initially i thought we might be able to do Ubuntu inside Debian, but pushing hard to narrow its focus
[18:06] <sabdfl> and then i realised that this would be a huge mistake
[18:07] <sabdfl> because, to do Ubuntu, you would need to cut out many of the things that make Debian wonderful
[18:07] <sabdfl> effectively, Debian sid is like the LKML
[18:07] <sabdfl> and we are like a distro that produces a release kernel from their work
[18:07] <sabdfl> that's actually a very powerful structure
[18:07] <sabdfl> other people also do amazing but DIFFERENT things with the output from Debian
[18:08] <sabdfl> so, this is the better way
[18:08] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: [follow-up] Will the hardware dedicated to PPA be increased?  It took 8 hours to build a package that takes 6 minutes to build on my server.
[18:08] <sabdfl> mbt: yes, i think the servers are just full of Hardy package builds
 QUESTION: What is the future plan for PPAs? More architecture, RPM, support for other distros like debian unstable or fedora?
[18:08] <Hobbsee> mbt: i think that was due to some part of it breaking, and no one around to fix it.  that's not normal.
[18:08] <popey> (related)
[18:08] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: ppa, not production...
[18:08] <sabdfl> https://edge.launchpad.net/+builds
[18:08] <sabdfl> yes, but they will soon be the same pool
[18:09] <sabdfl> we will bring on stream another set of PPA-dedicated builders
[18:09] <sabdfl> slytherin: not sure yet!
[18:10] <sabdfl> will depend on what people do with it
[18:10] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What are you doing to solve the "codec dilemma"?  Free formats are great in theory, but in practice everybody has iPods and a large collection of MP3/AAC files, and I don't see all of that disappearing in favor of Ogg overnight.
[18:10] <sabdfl> MP3 will solve itself when the patent expires
[18:10] <sabdfl> video is much trickier
[18:10] <sabdfl> Flash -> Gnash
[18:11] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: How is the business model surrounding Ubuntu different than the original support model Red Hat had up until Red Hat 9 (after which Enterprise Linux and Fedora became separate)?
[18:11] <sabdfl> poelcat: it's similar, i think we have a wider range of services we offer at present
[18:12] <sabdfl> but circumstances are quite different, and i am confident we can make it work well
[18:12] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Getting involved in ubuntu usually involves signing up for and learning a complex, arcane set of overlapping collaboration technologies: irc, wiki, forums, mail lists, launchpad, and on the devel side: dput's odd ideas of how to do authentication and feedback, etc.  Experienced folks find them mostly second nature, but it turns off newcomers.  Where is the road out of this maze of twisty passages?
[18:12] <sabdfl> nealmcb: there's also a lot of distro-specific processes and terminology
[18:12] <popey>  < nealmcb_> provisioning via launchpad?
[18:12] <sabdfl> freezes and milestones and gibbons
[18:13] <sabdfl> PPAs are a good start
[18:13] <sabdfl> because you can Just Get Started, and publish your work for friends / customers
[18:13] <sabdfl> and from there, we'll figure it out
[18:13] <sabdfl> if you have good suggestions, the right person to take them to is dholbach
[18:13] <sabdfl> jono would also love to hear about that, i think :-)
[18:13] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: any plans of shipping pressed CDs for Xubuntu? I'm sure a few users would appreciate that, even if shipit offers only LTS Xubuntu releases
[18:14] <sabdfl> not at this stage, i'm afraid
[18:14] <popey>  < jono> sabdfl: sure would :)
[18:14] <sabdfl> we might be able to help get a good price if you want to place an order with the same supplier we use
[18:14] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: any intent to collaborate with fedora on their linux hardware database and smolt?
[18:14] <sabdfl> Solarion: dup :-)
[18:14] <popey> oops
[18:14] <sabdfl> we have a hardware database too!
[18:15] <sabdfl> but i'm happy to collaborate in places where we both can contribute and benefit
[18:15] <sabdfl> i think some fedora folks are coming to UDS, which is cool
[18:15] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Updating during a release consumes a lot of bandwidth and is probably impractical for people without high speed access. Is there any plan to have updates delivered ans binary diffs?
[18:15] <sabdfl> i tihnk release-to-release binary diffs would be HUGE
[18:15] <sabdfl> not sure what the saving would be
[18:16] <sabdfl> do you have figures that suggest feisty->gutsy is smaller as a binary delta?
[18:16] <popey>  < frank3434> I meant security updates and such
[18:16] <sabdfl> that might be possible
[18:16] <sabdfl> come to UDS to discuss, present a paper!
[18:16] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Do you sometimes come accross stuff that doesn't work in ubuntu (eg wireless), and that you are frustrated?
[18:16] <sabdfl> yes, indeed
[18:16] <sabdfl> sound, often
[18:17] <sabdfl> i try to make sure the laptops we have in the company are from a diversity of brands
[18:17] <sabdfl> so folks file bugs :-)
[18:17] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION : If ubuntu becomes very populair, will there be more ''sponsors" needed for the whole project , certainly for the shipping of cd's ?
[18:17] <sabdfl> possibly, and we'd certainly accept sponsorship!
[18:18] <sabdfl> as long as it doesn't involve paying for undisclosed patents :-)
[18:18] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: VCD/DVD playing with totem-gstreamer is pain even with all the codecs and libdvdcss2 installed. Is there any plan for having some (sponsored) dedicated developer to solve these problems?
[18:18] <sabdfl> slytherin: not AFAIK
[18:18] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: follow up on laptop usability: Suspend/resume does not work for many people with swsusp or uswsusp. I myself have very good experiences with a TuxOnIce patched kernel. Has it already been proposed to include that patch by default in Ubuntu, and if not, why not?
[18:18] <sabdfl> slytherin: i tihnk a commercial DVD player is still, alas, the best solution
[18:19] <sabdfl> profoX`: best person to speak with is mjg59 or benc
[18:19] <sabdfl> waaay outside my level of competence :-)
[18:19] <sabdfl> i know they care a lot about suspend/resume, but need folks to help debug and fix during the dev cycle
[18:19] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: iPods are all over, yet Ubuntu's support for them is currently quite lacking (i.e. Rhythmbox has no sync/can't delete songs).  Is there any plans to improve this support?
[18:19] <sabdfl> thully: we're in the hands of upstream, there
[18:19] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: What does the victory over OOXML really mean for Linux?
 QUESTION:  Do you see the ISO shooting down Microsofts second attempt at pushing through OOXML?
[18:20] <sabdfl> hmm... caution, it's not yet a victory
[18:20] <sabdfl> there is a ballot-resolution meeting in Jan
[18:20] <sabdfl> MSFT is trying to convince "no" voting countries to change to "yes"
[18:20] <sabdfl> it will be very tight
[18:21] <sabdfl> if they fail there, then i hope they will start to support ODF
[18:21] <sabdfl> OpenOffice deserves some competition ;-)
[18:21] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: how do you think being a FOSS software house CEO differs from being a proprietary software house CEO?
[18:22] <sabdfl> it's much more interesting - because there are tons of smart people that DON'T work for you but you can still engage with them, debate and discuss, and collaborate
[18:22] <sabdfl> not many proprietary ceo's would have the benefit, or the challenges, of debian :-)
[18:22] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: How would canonical value the additions of domotics (home automation) to Ubuntu? Id love Ubuntu to control my house. Would Canonical support an Ubuntu derivate distro with domotics in mind?
[18:22] <sabdfl> hugolp: get cracking in a PPA, i think that's a brilliant idea!
[18:23] <sabdfl> if it takes off, then we would help more
[18:23] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: how come both ubuntu and kubuntu sometimes seem to be focused on reinventing the wheel when it comes to similar purposes: e.g. aptitude for ubuntu and adept-manager for kubuntu, wouldn't it be better if there would be work done on 1 common back-end so the individual distro's work would be limited to front-end GUI creation. Could you see this happening in the future?
 Do you think this would contribute to lessening the perceived features-gap between the 2 distros as there seems to be now?
[18:23] <sabdfl> i *think* there are common backends for most of the similar capabilities
[18:23] <sabdfl> i know Riddell and co are not big NIH'ers
[18:23] <Hobbsee> the upgrader in adept is a copy of update-manager, written in qt
[18:24] <Hobbsee> afaik, anyway
[18:24] <sabdfl> the reason i think we still have both KDE and Gnome (and others) is that diversity breeds innovation
[18:24] <sabdfl> at the price of some duplication
[18:24] <Hobbsee> for most things, it's just a problem that no one ends up writing a qt front-end - but the gnome-types are getting better at making sure there are separate backends, to avoid code duplication
[18:24] <sabdfl> thanks Hobbsee
[18:24] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Do you think it would be worth our time to develop a distributed APT backend, like apt-torrent or the defunct deb-torrent? How much is software distribution costing the community in terms of bandwidth/dollar?
[18:24] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: you're welcome
[18:25] <sabdfl> awalton__: it's definitely a cool idea, though it has some rough challenges to overcome. at this stage, bandwidth isn't a big constraint IMO
[18:25] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Ubuntu Live in Portland was awesome!  Are there plans in work for next year's conference?
[18:25] <sabdfl> dinda: indeed :-)
[18:25] <sabdfl> next?
[18:25] <sabdfl> (hi dinda)
 QUESTION: with Ubuntu's icon set based on gnomes icon set which is based on the tango style and most major gnome apps(gimp, pidgin etc) adopting this same style is there any chance Ubuntu will do the same to tie in with the desktop apps and gnome?
[18:26] <sabdfl> hmm... keybuk is a good person to ask, as is kwii
[18:26] <sabdfl> i'm not a huge fan of tango, i'm afraid
[18:26] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION:  Is there any plan to partner gstreamer so some of the more common codecs could be bought legally from within ubuntu?
[18:26] <Hobbsee> s/kwii/kwwii/
[18:27] <sabdfl> not afaik, davmor2, but i am not entirely sure
[18:27] <sabdfl> we could run a poll to see if that would be popular
[18:27] <popey> (especially given some have left Fluendo now)
[18:27] <sabdfl> right person to ask is randy.linnell@canonical.com
[18:27] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: any plans to hold a conference for us poor schmoes stuck in the middle of the us, 4km from most popular spots?  :)
[18:28] <Hobbsee> i think that's called irc :)
[18:28] <sabdfl> we go where we can get a venue and a crowd...
[18:28] <sabdfl> but it really is worth the trip
[18:28] <sabdfl> looks like May 19-23 is next one after Boston
[18:28] <sabdfl> save the dates
[18:28] <sabdfl> though i don't know the venue yet
[18:28] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: what is the Ubuntu marketing strategy/plan for the near future?
[18:28] <sabdfl> i'm all typed out, so folks, 3 more questions
[18:29] <sabdfl> Mean-Machine: make it rock, build community, share the love!
[18:29] <sabdfl> we had fantastic coverage for Gutsy
[18:29] <sabdfl> really, really amazing
[18:29] <sabdfl> so i don't see any big changes to that plan
[18:29] <sabdfl> next?
[18:30] <popey> sabdfl: pick a number between 1 and 7
[18:30] <popey> (to make it fair)
[18:30] <sabdfl> 6
[18:30] <sabdfl> 2
 QUESTION: Are there any plans of a properly integrated alternative to Microsofts Remote Assistance feature? (basically: easy encrypted remote desktop)
[18:30] <sabdfl> 1
[18:30] <sabdfl> pointwood: that would make a GREAT spec for a UDS
[18:30] <sabdfl> seriously
[18:30] <sabdfl> all the components to do that are in place
[18:31] <sabdfl> so, start trying to champion that idea
[18:31] <sabdfl> try to get developers on your side
[18:31] <sabdfl> and it will happen
[18:31] <sabdfl> next?
 Question: What kind of tools do you recommend to use, for Ubuntu development? (Language; IDEs)
[18:31] <sabdfl> Python!
[18:31] <Hobbsee> nano!  ahem.
[18:31] <sabdfl> i'm not a big IDE fan, i use vim
[18:31] <sabdfl> eclipse is supposed to be great, if you haven't tried it
[18:31] <sabdfl> next?
 QUESTION: Have you seen the work with Fluxbuntu? What are your opinions of the goal of the project, and anything other comments you might have on this derivative?
[18:32] <sabdfl> i haven't seen it in action, but perhaps someone will show it to me in Boston next week?
[18:32] <sabdfl> very much looking forward to seeing everyone again next week
[18:32] <sabdfl> new faces, and others will be missed
[18:32] <sabdfl> but i think it's going to rock
[18:32] <sabdfl> phew
[18:32] <popey> thanks sabdfl
[18:32] <sabdfl> thanks very much popey, Hobbsee et al
[18:32] <DaSkreech_> sabdfl rocks!!!
[18:32] <sabdfl> PriceChild too
[18:33] <DaSkreech_> Three cheers for hte ops!!!!
[18:33] <Hobbsee> sabdfl: you're welcome
[18:33] <PriceChild> Anytime :)
[18:33] <sabdfl> this was fun as always!
[18:33] <DaSkreech_> Great session :)
[18:33] <sabdfl> thanks mdomsch for popping in too
[18:33] <drhous1> thanks for your time sabdfl great session
[18:33] <Rob125> sabdl, as in 'free beer whenever you're around.'
[18:33] <sabdfl> cheers all, enjoy the rest of the open week!
[18:33] <hendrixski> thank you for the great answers sabdfl
[18:33] <Otenkiya> Thanks sabdfl!
[18:33] <BonesolTeraDyne> thanks sabdfl!
[18:33] <marius> we love you sabdfl :D make Ubuntu #1 ;)
[18:33] <shaffox> Thanks sabdfl!
[18:33] <samgee> thanks a bunch sabdfl
[18:33] <hendrixski> GO UBUNTU!!!
[18:33] <sabdfl> :-) great questions make it easy, hendrixski, thanks for yours
[18:33] <nico1a> thank sabdfl
[18:33] <mybunche> My first time, enjoying it. Thanks.
[18:34] <mzungu_> many thanks for the insights, Mark
[18:34] <bbartek> Thx sabdfl
[18:34] <greg-g> great interview, thanks sabdfl
[18:34] <frank3434> thanks mark
[18:34] <peppych> thanks sabdfl
[18:34] <hendrixski> sabdfl, yw
[18:34] <pointwood> thx a lot sabdfl
[18:34] <Solarion> thanks, Mark
[18:34] <Solarion> lots of good answers
[18:34] <Quintasan> thanks for answering out questions
[18:34] <Linuturk> thx sabdfl
[18:35] <Linuturk> :)
[18:35] <Myrtti> thanks Mark <3
[18:35] <Belutz> thanks sabdfl
[18:35] <sumnerm> Thanks sabdfl
[18:35] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekgutsy/AskMark Log is online everyone!
[18:35] <Solarion> sabdfl: if you're in Iowa City in the next year, I'll invite you to a beer or coffee. :)
[18:36] <Pici> Thanks popey!
[18:36] <vincentt> THanks popey
[18:37] <Solarion> popey: thanks
[18:37] <Solarion> PriceChild: thanks!
[18:38] <PriceChild> no problem, thanks
[18:38] <Mean-Machine> sabdfl: thanks and congrats on the Rugby World Cup 2007
[18:39] <Solarion> great, now everyone can see my bad mjg59 joke.  :(
[18:39] <r3m0t> where?
[18:39] <Solarion> r3m0t: nowhere.  It does not exist.
[18:39]  * Solarion waves his hand
[18:39] <r3m0t> you LIE
[18:40] <Gareth> sabdfl: Thanks for taking the time to answer everyone's questions, if you're travel schedule ever finds you in Southern California around February...we'd love to have you at the SoCal Linux Expo :)
[18:40] <vincentt> Solarion, was it 17:05 < Solarion> dunno if mjg59 wants to be associated with gas per se...  ;)?
[18:41] <Solarion> vincentt: I have no recollection of that, Senator.
[18:41] <vincentt> :P
[18:41] <drhous1> shashank: You are a bit too late.. but you can get the logs at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekgutsy/AskMark
[18:42] <shashank> drhous1: thanks a lot!
[18:53] <edgarin> hi
[18:57] <hendrixski> is this still waiting for the next session?
[18:57] <samgee> yep
[18:57] <hendrixski> Question: hendrixski why are you so awesome?
[18:57] <hendrixski> I just am... thank you for asking
[18:57] <begert__> 4 minutes
[18:57] <hendrixski> great questions keep 'em comming
[18:57] <hendrixski> lol
[18:59] <DaSkreech_> Hu begert__  :)
[18:59] <Solarion> Question: have you been talking to yourself long?
[18:59] <DaSkreech_> did Hobbsee  poke you ?
[18:59] <Aw0L> Question: is it true that when the machines take over the world, they will use Linux and therefore using MS now is counterproductive?
[18:59] <DaSkreech_> Aw0L: No they will use Politicians
[18:59] <Aw0L> that machiens?
[18:59] <Aw0L> machines*
[18:59] <edenbeast> you realize that would mean using MS == saving the world
[18:59] <hendrixski> DaSkreech_, why thanks for asking.  no.
[19:01] <seb128> hello everybody
[19:01] <dholbach> hey seb128!
[19:01] <Quintasan> hiho
[19:01] <marius> hi Sebastian
[19:01] <seb128> dholbach!!!
[19:01] <dholbach> welcome super-seb128 and super-lool
[19:01] <Aw0L> edenbeast, no no - the machines will take over regardless - if we want to hack their drones to fight for us, we'd better sharpen our linux kung foo
[19:02] <dholbach> the dynamic desktop duo!
[19:02] <seb128> lool is also around? ;-)
[19:02] <seb128> let's get started
[19:02] <seb128> my name is Sébastien Bacher and I'm working on the Ubuntu Desktop for Canonical
[19:02] <seb128> do we have some desktop contributors around?
[19:03] <dholbach> Martinp23 is here!
[19:03] <seb128> waouh, lot of people on this chan ;-)
[19:03] <seb128> right
[19:03] <seb128> dholbach as well ;-)
[19:03] <Riddell> do I count? :)
[19:03] <seb128> Riddell: did you contribute to the Ubuntu desktop? ;-)
[19:04] <Hobbsee> Riddell: no. you're from the evil kubuntu team :P
[19:04] <seb128> ok
[19:04] <seb128> I'll do a short presentation of the team and then we will do Q&A
[19:04] <dholbach> seb128: the rest of people are all future desktop team contributors :)
[19:04] <DaSkreech_> Evel!
[19:04] <seb128> The ubuntu desktop team wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam , you should find informations on what the team is doing, how to contribute, etc there.
[19:04] <seb128> if the documentation is not clear your are welcome to improve it, that's a wiki ;-)
[19:04] <seb128> The team has an IRC channel (#ubuntu-desktop) and a mailing-list (ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com), feel free to join or subscribe if you have any question or want to contribute
[19:04] <seb128> there is also 2 teams on launchpad
[19:05] <seb128> desktop-bugs which focus on the bug triage
[19:05] <seb128> hey fernando ;-) (an another desktop team contributor)
[19:05] <fernando> hey seb128 =)
[19:05] <seb128> and ubuntu-desktop which is quite new and has restricted membership since it gives access to the bzr of the team for example
[19:06] <seb128> What we are usually doing:
[19:06] <seb128> we
[19:06] <seb128> - update desktop packages
[19:06] <seb128> - triage desktop bugs
[19:06] <seb128> - fix desktop bugs
[19:06] <seb128> - discuss changes to do for the next versions
[19:06] <seb128> - work on those
[19:06] <seb128> - and probably many other things I didn't enumerate there ;-)
[19:07] <seb128> the team is quite open so if you have any suggestion or something you want to work on, feel free to join
[19:07] <seb128> Some things we want to work on for the next cycle:
[19:07] <Solarion> what makes a bug a Desktop bug?
[19:07] <seb128> - update GNOME to 2.22 (we like to have GNOME update and users like that as well apparently ;-)
[19:08] <seb128> Solarion: a bug filed on one of the desktop packages but questions after the introduction please
[19:08] <seb128> - the new version will be a LTS so we will mainly focus on bug fixing and stabilisation
[19:08] <seb128> - probably some specifications that will discussed at UDS
[19:08] <seb128>  
[19:08] <seb128> Some other things that need work and where anybody can contribute:
[19:09] <seb128> - the tasks which have just been listed
[19:09] <seb128> - improve the wiki documentation
[19:09] <seb128> - speak about the team work and try to get new contributors
[19:09] <seb128> - try to figure a nice workflow around bzr for packaging
[19:10] <seb128> (we did add some packages to the ubuntu-desktop bzr archive on launchpad but  that complicates the work for the moment and we would like to get it as simple as "get the source, do your change, upload")
[19:11] <seb128> - and maybe get some "work to do" automated lists for packages that need to be merged on Debian, updates, don't build, etc
[19:11] <seb128>  
[19:11] <seb128> that's about it for the introduction
[19:12] <keegan> what languages has one to know to become a desktop developer
[19:12] <seb128> questions are welcome now, could somebody look at #ubuntu-classroom-chat and copy the questions?
[19:12] <seb128> keegan: english (or french) ;-)
[19:12] <seb128> computer languages? none
[19:12] <Quintasan> [20:12:24]      pwnguin | QUESTION: I'm trying to control my ubuntu desktop with a wiimote; what resources does the Desktop Team offer for this sort of effort?   │ Bonzodog
[19:12] <seb128> there is lot of things you can do without coding
[19:13] <phitoo> could you please address the plans for kubuntu?
[19:13] <marius> [21:04] <marius> QUESTION: Hi Sebastien! Will it ever be an original, full compatible Yahoo Messenger 8 client for Ubuntu? Because Pidgin is not even close compatible with Yahoo Messenger 8...not to talk about other chat clients such as Kopete...
[19:13] <seb128> pwnguin: none at the moment, we have limited ressources and quite some work on the "standard desktop" at the moment, you are welcome to join the team and start an effort on that though
[19:13] <pwnguin> seb128: theres already a package
[19:14] <pwnguin> seb128: it just requires some knowledge about xmodmap
[19:14] <seb128> pwnguin: feel free to join #ubuntu-desktop to speak about better integration whenever you want then
[19:14] <seb128> phitoo: questions on #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[19:15] <seb128> is anybody taking care of selecting questions and copying those here?
[19:15] <seb128> marius: that would be upstream work, we don't have the ressources to do coding for them at the moment
[19:15] <Quintasan> QUESTION: Is anyone planning on paying attention to the small details on compiz during the gutsy cycle?
[19:15] <marius> i see, thaks :)
[19:16] <marius> thanks*
[19:16] <seb128> Quintasan: yes, we will focus on fixing bugs and usuability issues and compiz is on the list of software that need some polish
[19:16] <pwnguin> seb128: so should i asssign bugs to the desktop team?
[19:17] <seb128> pwnguin: no, we read bugs on desktop teams packages
[19:17] <nalioth> questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please. direct them to jussi01
 QUESTION: Will the K/Ubuntu device database ever work? (not just tell me Im not using Ubuntu Hoary or Breezy)
[19:17] <seb128> you have a list of those packages on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/+packagebugs
[19:17] <seb128> if you want to let the desktop know about something you can subscribe the team
[19:17] <seb128> don't assign it though
 QUESTION: GIMP 2.4 was released today! Ubuntu 7.10 has the RC3 version...why there is such a long delay until we can update it? Also, Transmission packages are very old (version 0.72), today was released version 0.90.... I use version 0.82 from another repo. Firefox took about 4 days until was available for update.
[19:18] <seb128> jussi01: there was some discussions about it during the UDS in Sevilla 6 months ago and that's on the map, not sure if that will happen this cycle though
[19:18] <seb128> marius: -chat for question please
[19:19] <seb128> next
[19:19] <jussi01> QUESTION: GIMP 2.4 was released today! Ubuntu 7.10 has the RC3 version...why there is such a long delay until we can update it? Also, Transmission packages are very old (version 0.72), today was released version 0.90.... I use version 0.82 from another repo. Firefox took about 4 days until was available for update.
[19:19] <seb128> such a long delay? it was release today as you said ...
[19:19] <seb128> we will look at updating it to gutsy-proposed and gutsy-updates as we do with GNOME 2.20.1
[19:20] <seb128> dunno about transmission
[19:20] <seb128> that's not a desktop package
[19:20] <seb128> neither is firefox, but 4 days doesn't look like too much time to test possible regression, especially if there was saturday and sunday in this 4 days
[19:20] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: I'm trying to control my ubuntu desktop with a wiimote; what resources does the Desktop Team offer for this sort of effort?
[19:20] <pwnguin> uh
[19:20] <pwnguin> already answered
[19:21] <pwnguin> next
[19:21] <seb128> already replied to this one directly here ;-)
[19:21] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: Where is help most needed? Development or Packaging?
[19:21] <seb128> nosami: I would say bug triage and fixing ;-)
[19:21] <seb128> but contribution to package updates and development are also very welcome
[19:21] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: With the increasing speed with which development and stable (and compatible) releases of software are coming out, is the Desktop team considering making certain classes of packages "volatile", or starting some sort of "volatile" component for the desktop that would enable users to continue running a chosen release, but also have newer versions of popular packages like OOo, Pidgin, and so forth?
[19:22] <seb128> mbt: not really, no, we focus on the desktop version for the next Ubuntu release which is already enough work
[19:22] <seb128> such efforts are rather in the scope of the backport team
[19:22] <seb128> and not limited to desktop packages
[19:22] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: Are there any plans to provide an approachable and consistent experience for graphical system administration? Currently there are tens of different looking tools scattered across administration/preferences and a few things in accessories and other places.
[19:24] <seb128> zeth: I'm not sure what your issue with the current tools is exactly, we removed the application, system tools category of the default menu to avoid confusion
[19:24] <seb128> all the admin tools are under system, administration now
[19:24] <seb128> and what they do should be clear enough (network, users, etc)
[19:25] <seb128> specific suggestions are welcome on the chan or list if you have some though
[19:25] <seb128> next
[19:25] <jussi01> QUESTION: Since Webmin will no longer be part of Ubuntu, will CipUX be replacing it? (Debian seems to be leaning towards it) If not, then what other solution?
[19:25] <seb128> we do sync packages on Debian so if they get it it'll be available in Ubuntu as well
[19:26] <seb128> dunno specifically about this one, that would be rather a question for the server team than the desktop one
[19:26] <seb128> next
[19:26] <jussi01>  QUESTION: My phpmyadmin apt-get install was interrupted, how can i restart it, so the config script will rerun aswell. Apt-get remove/install, wont do a rerun on the config script.
[19:26] <jussi01> ( Jaac )
[19:26] <seb128> Jaac: that's rather an user support question and off topic here, you can try on #ubuntu though
[19:26] <seb128> and phpmyadmin is not a desktop package for the record
[19:26] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: about half of the .mp4s I download from google video refuse to play in totem -- are there any concrete plans for new gstreamer plugins and fixes to existing ones, in either ubuntu or upstream?
[19:27] <seb128> pwnguin: you are welcome to open bugs with example, I don't think we get many complain about that at the moment
[19:28] <pwnguin> would a link to a video be a good enough example, or should i upload an actual video?
[19:28] <seb128> I don't read a lot of mp4 myself but the ones I tried worked after installing the required codecs (which totem mades easy nowadays)
[19:28] <seb128> pwnguin: links are good enough
[19:28] <pwnguin> its mostly google tech talks -- apparently they dropped ogg
[19:28] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: Are there any plans to implement an "Extract to..." and "Open Terminal Here" functions in the right click context menu?
[19:29] <seb128> marius: install nautilus-open-terminal and you will get the corresponding one
[19:29] <seb128> extract to is a file-roller wishlist, there is already an item to extract to the current directory, I'm not sure it makes sense to have a specific item to extract somewhere else
[19:30] <seb128> opening the software and clicking on extract is easy enough
[19:30] <seb128> next
[19:30] <jussi01>  <mbt> QUESTION:  Does the Desktop team only work with the main component, or does it work in the universe/multiverse as well?
[19:30] <seb128> we work on the Ubuntu default desktop, which is what you get when you try a desktop CD
[19:31] <seb128> the list of packages we track is https://bugs.launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/+packagebugs
[19:31] <seb128> for universe packages that's up to the MOTUs
[19:31] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: is it theoretically possible to unlock a gnome keyring without typing a password?
 pwnguin: pam integration works for standard logins but not autologin at the moment if that's the question
[19:33] <seb128> not sure of what is required to make it work with autologin
[19:33] <seb128> if somebody knows please let me know
[19:33] <pwnguin> yikes
[19:33] <pwnguin> two conversations in one window
[19:33] <seb128> I had a quick look before gutsy but didn't manage to get it working (it was opened a password entry on login)
[19:33] <seb128> and I've been too busy with other things to look at it
[19:33] <pwnguin> im pretty sure the keyring encrypts your keys with a password
 QUESTION: Are there any packages that manages mobile phones connected via Bluetooth or usb?
[19:33] <seb128> but patches are welcome
[19:34] <jussi01> oops. sorry
[19:34] <seb128> next
[19:34] <seb128> jussi01: that's ok ;-)
[19:34] <jussi01> :)
[19:35] <seb128> Quintasan: I don't know a lot about the bluetooth tools but you can have a look to gnome-bluetooth
[19:35] <seb128> I know that gnome-vfs-obexftp should be installed
[19:35] <treb0re> wammu + gammu
[19:35] <seb128> but it has been suggested late for gutsy and we didn't manage to get it promoted to main and added to the desktop by default
[19:35] <seb128> but we will look into better bluetooth support in this cycle for pretty sure
[19:35] <seb128> next
[19:36] <jussi01>  <pwnguin> QUESTION: if compiz is enabled by default, does this open the possibility of installing 3d games by default?
[19:36] <seb128> mvo: ^ around? ;-)
[19:36] <seb128> pwnguin: the team working on compiz is not the desktop team at the moment, it has its specific group of people, but I think they are working to get everything working correctly
[19:37] <pwnguin> ah
[19:37] <sistpoty> pwnguin: these will hardly fit on the CDs, I guess (at least the one's that look and play really cool imho)
[19:37] <seb128> not sure if that's still the case but I think I read once they were considering switching the window manager before activating a 3d application
[19:37] <seb128> that was about compiz & 3d games
[19:37] <seb128> for the default installation that's not likely
[19:37] <seb128> there is no space on the CD for that as pointed by sistpoty
[19:38] <seb128> and no real candidate at the moment anyway
[19:38] <seb128> and that's not really a required feature
[19:38] <seb128> rather something you can install if you want
[19:38] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: does the desktop team deal with Kubuntu also? or is that separate
[19:38] <sistpoty> oh, there were enough candidates imho... (slune for example), but no space :P
[19:39] <seb128> jussi01: no, the kubuntu team deal with kubuntu, we work on the standard Ubuntu GNOME desktop (packages on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/+packagebugs)
[19:39] <lool> seb128: I was at dinner
[19:40] <seb128> lool: that's alright, just pointing desktop people which were around when we started the desktop team session
[19:40] <seb128> everybody, we need extra questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ;-)
[19:41] <stelt> seb-128 , i had a question for Mark, but that didn't come through :-(
[19:41] <seb128> I'm not mark so I can't reply for him ;-)
 QUESTION: Who decides what bookmarks added into Firefox by default in Ubuntu and Free Software links?
[19:42] <stelt> seb128, no packaging is the subject?
[19:42] <seb128> Quintasan: no idea, firefox has its own team which is not the desktop one, you can ask to asac on IRC when he's around though or open a bug
[19:42] <seb128> I expect that's up to the Ubuntu firefox maintainer
[19:42] <Quintasan> seb128: thanks i found those quite useful
[19:42] <seb128> and could be discussed on ubuntu-devel-list
[19:43] <seb128> if you have any suggestion for changes
[19:43] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: is conference voip in ubuntu solid enough to replace IRC in the next open week?
[19:43] <seb128> stelt: feel free to ask desktop packaging questions in -chat if you want
[19:43] <dholbach> *snort* with 316 people? :)
[19:44] <pwnguin> think ambitious ;)
[19:44] <seb128> pwnguin: no idea, I don't know about voip a lot nor organize this week but I would expect IRC to be easier
[19:44] <seb128> for bandwith, noise, etc issues
[19:44] <lool> It's more confortable to read up IRC async IMO
[19:44] <seb128> yes, I don't think voip would scale
[19:45] <seb128> so I would tend to say that IRC works fine there
[19:45] <seb128> next
[19:45] <seb128> come on people, we need extra questions
[19:45] <seb128> still 15 minutes in this session ;-)
[19:46] <seb128> nobody considering joining the team and having suggestions, questions, things to ask? ;-)
 QUESTION: Are there any plans to replace the default bittorrent client with a better one?
[19:46] <seb128> ah, interesting one
[19:46] <seb128> I don't use bittorent a lot and the default client seems to do the job
[19:46] <marius> i have a lot of suggestions, I want to move to GNOME from KDE because it's faster....but I can't :( There are things I miss :(
[19:47] <seb128> but if there is some real bittorent users who things the default applications is not good and that we have better alternative please mail the ubuntu-desktop list with some rational
[19:47] <seb128> we are happy to consider changes if that can benefit to users
[19:47] <seb128> next
 QUESTION:  Does the Desktop team work with the backports team(s) at all?
[19:47] <marius> 10x :)
[19:48] <seb128> jussi01: no, I don't think there is real need for that at the moment, we update packages in the current version of the distribution and they work at making those available in backport when it makes sense
[19:48] <seb128> mbt: ^
[19:49] <seb128> if you think we should interact for a good reason you are welcome to let we know which one ;-)
[19:49] <seb128> we are open for questions and suggestions from the backport team though
[19:49] <seb128> and are happy to make changes that make their work easier if they make sense
[19:49] <seb128> next?
 QUESTION: don't you think it would be smart to take packaging and easy installation to a broader scope? Any distro, any free program even on Windows, through one general, super-easy, super-available installer? see some ideas on http://freedomdrive.org (a strong name that i'd like to put to more use)
 QUESTION: are there plans to get a better disk/fstab manager?  There's currently none.  :(
[19:50] <jussi01> Quintasan: please dont
[19:50] <seb128> stelt: dunno about this project but there is autopackage and some other similar projects trying to go in this direction
[19:51] <seb128> I don't think it really benefit users though
[19:51] <seb128> distribution packages are integrated, tested and known to be mostly working
[19:51] <seb128> encouraging users to try quick made package often create breakages and upgrade issues
[19:51] <seb128> next
[19:52] <jussi01>  <Quintasan> QUESTION: I heard that CNR (click and run) service form Lin/Free spire i avilable for Ubuntu, will it be included into any realase?
[19:52] <seb128> Quintasan: no idea about that
[19:52] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: are there plans to get a better disk/fstab manager?  There's currently none.  :(
[19:53] <seb128> jussi01: no concrete plan but we have one in dapper which was far from being optimal and that would be nice to get one before the next lts, maybe something to consider to work on this cycle
[19:53] <seb128> Solarion: ^
[19:53] <seb128> jussi01: sorry about the nick confusion ;-)
[19:54] <seb128> Solarion: if you have some ideas on the topic on want to work on it you are welcome to join the IRC chan or list and bring the subject there
[19:54] <seb128> next?
 QUESTION: Does anyone on the team run with the default desktop settings?
[19:54] <lool> pwnguin: I do!
[19:54]  * Martinp23 too!
[19:54] <pwnguin> and you like it this way?
[19:55] <seb128> pwnguin: I can't speak for other people but I don't change a lot (tweak the panels, fonts, background and some other small things but that's basically it)
[19:55] <seb128> pwnguin: anything specific?
[19:55] <pwnguin> well, two gnome panels comes to mind
[19:55] <seb128> there is no enough room on one
[19:55] <seb128> s/no/not
[19:56] <seb128> and we have no real interest to copy windows in the "one panel at the bottom" way
[19:56] <pwnguin> well mines at the top :P
[19:56] <seb128> but there was a 2006 SoC on a panel profiles switcher applications
[19:56] <seb128> if somebody wants to pick up the work and get it integrated in Ubuntu that would be a good idea
[19:57] <seb128> having some default profiles, a standard GNOME one, a windows like one, and an Ubuntu one for example
[19:57] <seb128> next
 QUESTION: how tight is CD capacity for app picking?
[19:58] <seb128> Tesla-HETy: very, we try to fit on one CD and that's starting being really though, the CD was quite oversized before gutsy and we had to do quite some ugly packaging hacking to get it back on what is required
[19:59] <seb128> gimp-gnomevfs which was a tiny Depends is not on the gutsy desktop because of that
[19:59] <seb128> we did some packaging changes now though which should gave us some space
[19:59] <seb128> but there is nothing to waste there
[19:59]  * dholbach high-fives seb128
[19:59] <dholbach> thanks seb128 and lool for this excellent Desktop Team session :-)
[19:59] <seb128> (especially than free space means extra translations on the CD)
[19:59]  * popey whispers "lose the mandela video"
[19:59] <seb128> next one and we are done then?
[19:59]  * seb128 hugs dholbach
[20:00]  * dholbach hugs seb128 back
 QUESTION: Do you maintain a janitors list like the linux-kernel, with simple projects for newbies?
[20:00] <seb128> what is a "janitors list"?
[20:00] <seb128> ah, easy tasks to contribute?
[20:00] <Solarion> yes
[20:00] <Solarion> http://janitor.kernelnewbies.org/
[20:00] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO has a lot of easy tasks - most of them include tasks like updating packages, which will be part of the next session :-)
[20:01] <Solarion> :)
[20:01] <seb128> what dholbach said
[20:01] <seb128> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/GettingStarted also
[20:01] <seb128> and https://edge.launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/+mentoring
[20:02] <jussi01> 1 more seb128 ?
[20:02] <seb128> jussi01: if you want
 QUESTION: not to be critical but speaking of default themes are there any thoughts or plans to do a really professional and attractive default theme - something to rival the "other" OSs?
[20:02] <seb128> that would an artwork team question ;-)
[20:02] <seb128> I know there is some discussion about artwork changes for hardy
[20:02] <seb128> I think the icon and GTK themes will get some work for the next lts
[20:03] <seb128> but I don't know details there
[20:03] <seb128> maybe dholbach knows? ;-)
[20:03] <dholbach> no, but kwwii and ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com are the best points of contact there :)
[20:04] <_MMA_> I just asked kwwii to pop in.
[20:04] <seb128> jussi01: thanks for copying the questions and moderating!
[20:04] <seb128> and thanks everybody for attending the session
[20:04] <seb128> and for the good questions ;-)
[20:04] <Solarion> thanks seb128, jussi01
[20:04] <dholbach> thanks seb128 and the DesktopTeam!
[20:04] <seb128> and see you soon on the desktop team chans and mailing lists ;-)
[20:05] <dholbach> Welcome everybody to the Packaging 101 session!
[20:05] <dholbach> My name is Daniel Holbach, I work for Canonical, part of the MOTU team for a long time and have worked in a couple of other Ubuntu teams already. What I'm working on now is trying to make becoming a MOTU more easier and enjoyable, so if you have any questions, recommendations or worries outside of this session, feel free to drop me a mail at dholbach@ubuntu.com
[20:05] <dholbach> Who of you already started contributing to Ubuntu in form of packages or patches?
[20:05] <marius> thanks Sebastien!
[20:05]  * pwnguin has
[20:05] <dholbach> Who of you started playing with packaging tools already? :-)
[20:06]  * Muzik``` has since yesterday
[20:06]  * Rob125 timidly raises his hand.
[20:06]  * amarillion has some packages in his PPA
[20:06] <dholbach> rock on pwnguin, muzik``, Rob125, amarillion! :)
[20:06] <dholbach> What I want to show in today's sessions is two tasks Ubuntu Developers do quite often: 1) updating a package to a new upstream release, 2) providing a debdiff.
[20:06] <dholbach> Why are they important? These tasks are performed quite often and if you're able to make good use of them, it's a very good starting point to get involved as an Ubuntu Developer.
[20:06] <seb128> dholbach \o/
[20:07] <dholbach> How do you become an Ubuntu Developer? First of all you become a MOTU: a Master Of The Universe. The process is all written up on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers - basically it boils down to:
[20:07] <dholbach>  1) contribute patches and new packages
[20:07] <dholbach>  2) get them reviewed by the reviewer team
[20:07] <dholbach>  3) get them uploaded by a sponsor
[20:07] <dholbach>  4) Go back to 1) a couple of times until your sponsors tell you "I'm tired of this - you should be able to do this yourself."
[20:07] <dholbach>  5) Write your application to the MOTU Council.
[20:08] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess explains how uploads get sponsored. Sponsoring means: somebody who's allowed to upload to the build daemons, will sign your package with their GPG key and upload it for you.
[20:08] <dholbach> The review process is also quite easy: you file a bug with the a link to the source package or attach the patch (debdiff), then you subscribe either ubuntu-main-sponsors (for packages in main or restricted) or ubuntu-universe-sponsors (for packages that live in universe or multiverse).
[20:08] <dholbach> Are there any questions about that?
[20:09] <amarillion> Can you use your own email address and gpg key for new packages before you pass them to a sponsor?
[20:09] <dholbach> Any questions about the processes? How to become an Ubuntu Developer? What MOTUs do?
[20:09] <dholbach> amarillion: yes, good question
[20:09] <dholbach> amarillion: you're encouraged to have your own name in the debian/changelog entry, etc
[20:10] <dholbach> that way they will show up on your http://launchpad.net/~<LaunchpadID>/+packages page
[20:10] <dholbach> which is important when you apply to become a MOTU
[20:10] <dholbach> it will show what you've done over the release cycles
[20:10] <dholbach> the only thing the sponsor does is: read the diff, make sure it's OK, then sign it with their key and upload it
[20:11] <dholbach> Any more questions?
[20:11] <dholbach> Seems everybody in here knows about MOTU and Ubuntu Development already. :-)
[20:11] <dholbach> (or has been in yesterday's session... :-))
[20:11] <dholbach> To sum it up: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers are the process pages that you really want to bookmark, if you're interested in packaging and joining the team. :-)
[20:12] <dholbach> The MOTU team can be found on #ubuntu-motu and at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU - if you need help with anything let us know, there's also our motu-mentors list at http://lists.ubuntu.com/ubuntu-motu-mentors
[20:12] <dholbach> If there are no more questions, let's move on and try to update a package
[20:13] <dholbach> the example I'll use is a slightly historic one, we'll try to update brasero 0.5.2 to brasero 0.5.90
[20:13] <dholbach> first of all: make sure you have a   deb-src  line in your /etc/apt/sources.list
[20:13] <dholbach> I have this one for example:
[20:13] <dholbach> deb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu gutsy main restricted universe multiverse
[20:14] <dholbach> that way we don't only have a source for binary packages (which get installed during updates, etc), but also a source for source packages
[20:14] <dholbach> after that, run:
[20:14] <dholbach>  sudo apt-get update
[20:14] <dholbach> next thing will be to set the DEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL variables
[20:14] <dholbach> edit ~/.bashrc in your favourite editor and add something like
[20:15] <dholbach> export DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'
[20:15] <dholbach> export DEBEMAIL='daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com'
[20:15] <dholbach> after that, run       source ~/.bashrc      or restart your terminal
[20:15] <dholbach> these variables will be used by a variety of packaging tools and make your life easier
_ QUESTION: There is a desktop tool, already packaged as a .deb - but not in ubuntu universe etc.  how does one do the work to get it included?
[20:16] <dholbach> mzungu_: the process for that is quite easy: it's explained at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment#NewPackages
[20:16] <dholbach> you will have to upload the source package (not the .deb), which includes .orig.tar.gz .diff.gz and .dsc
[20:16] <dholbach> it will be reviewed, then uploaded if it's OK
[20:17] <dholbach> now we'll install some necessary tools:
[20:17] <dholbach>  sudo apt-get install devscripts build-essential wget cdbs fakeroot liburi-perl debhelper
[20:18] <dholbach> we'll base the new version of brasero on the old one (0.5.2), get it by running:
[20:18] <dholbach>  dget -x http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/motu/brasero_0.5.2-0ubuntu1.dsc
[20:18] <dholbach> normally you'd just use    apt-get source <package>        but in our case, we use an older version
[20:18] <dholbach> if you look at what it downloaded, you'll notice, that there's a .orig.tar.gz a .diff.gz and a .dsc file
[20:19] <dholbach>  * .orig.tar.gz is the upstream tarball we get from the project's homepage
[20:19] <dholbach>  * .diff.gz is the compressed set of changes we apply in Ubuntu to make it build with our build services
[20:19] <dholbach>  * .dsc is a file which includes descriptions as text-only
[20:20] <dholbach> dget -x has downloaded and extracted the tarball, then applied the changes
[20:20] <dholbach> now we'll get the new version we want to upgrade to
[20:20] <dholbach>  wget http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/motu/brasero-0.5.90.tar.gz
[20:20] <dholbach> we'll extract it:
[20:20] <dholbach>  tar xfz brasero-0.5.90.tar.gz
[20:21] <dholbach> and rename it to conform with the naming pattern:
[20:21] <dholbach>  mv brasero-0.5.90.tar.gz brasero_0.5.90.orig.tar.gz
[20:21] <dholbach> in the case of brasero the only packaging changes are in debian/ so in this example, we'll just copy them over
[20:21] <dholbach>  cp -r brasero-0.5.2/debian brasero-0.5.90/
 QUESTION: is it possible for a company to host a proprietary service by hosting their own password-protected repository?  Assuming it's not open-source-software that they're hiding behind the passwords?
[20:22] <dholbach> hendrixski: yes, they can do that, I believe sftp is an option
[20:22] <dholbach> best to check the apt manpages
[20:23] <dholbach> now that we've copied over the debian changes, we'll do update the version number and add a changelog entry
[20:23] <dholbach>  cd brasero-0.5.90
[20:23] <dholbach>  dch -i
[20:23] <dholbach> every change we make in Ubuntu needs to have a changelog entry
[20:23] <dholbach> as we're updating to 0.5.90 we'll change the version number in the first line
[20:24] <dholbach> to 0.5.90-0ubuntu1
[20:24] <dholbach> "0.5.90" is the upstream version
[20:24] <dholbach> "-0" is the bit that refers to the debian version (in our case we did not merge a debian version, so we'll use -0)
[20:25] <dholbach> "ubuntu1" says that it's the first version of it in Ubuntu
[20:25] <dholbach> as upload target (behind the version number) we'll use "hardy" instead of "gutsy"
[20:26] <dholbach> we can always only upload to the active development release, which now is hardy
[20:26] <dholbach> gutsy is 'locked'
[20:26] <dholbach> there's also gutsy-updates and gutsy-security, but that's not part of our example right now :)
[20:26] <dholbach> as version string we'll use something like "New Upstream Release"
[20:27] <dholbach> did that work for everybody up until now? any questions?
 QUESTION:  When building testing packages, say, when testing a patch or something, what sort of version scheme should be used to ensure that the test package is (a) newer than the current package, and (b) "older" than the next-to-be-released?  (Example:  LP 131526 is one such instance)
[20:27] <dholbach> mbt: say you're preparing a 0.5.4-3ubuntu2 upload (which fixes 0.5.4-3ubuntu1)
[20:27] <dholbach> you could use 0.5.4-3ubuntu2~testing1
[20:28] <dholbach> ~ is used in cases like that to indicate "this is less than"
[20:28] <mbt> Excellent, thank you.  That one has been bugging me.  :)
 hhmm... and.. that leads me to another question I guess:
[20:28] <dholbach>  QUESTION: Is it possible to create a nightly build of the main branch that creates package(s) for testing as well?  Are there already tools that do this or would one have to write their own script?
[20:29] <dholbach> hendrixski: you mean a CVS checkout or something?
[20:29] <dholbach> hendrixski: it should be easy enough to script that and use 'dch' to generate a new automated changelog entry for every checkout
[20:30] <dholbach> I'd expect a few lines shell or python should do that
[20:30] <dholbach> everybody has the changelog done alright?
[20:30] <DaveMorris> hendrixski: I have that already, I'll paste bin it for you
[20:30] <dholbach> now we'll install the build-dependencies of brasero, so we can build it properly
[20:30] <dholbach> sudo apt-get build-dep brasero
[20:31] <hendrixski> DaveMorris, I would appreciate that, thank you :-)
[20:31] <dholbach> so what are build-dependencies?
[20:31] <dholbach> if you check out debian/control you will notice that in its first stanza it's talking about the source and Build-Depends
[20:32] <dholbach> in the next stanza(s) it mentions Depends
[20:32] <dholbach> Depends are what will be required to install the resulting binary package
[20:32] <dholbach> Build-Depends are the packages that are needed to build the package
[20:33] <dholbach> the Ubuntu build daemons all have a minimal build environment, which will just install what you specify in the Build-Depends
[20:34] <dholbach> to build the source package, please run
[20:34] <dholbach>  debuild -S -sa
[20:34] <dholbach> please ignore the (possible) message about you not being able to sign the source package
[20:34] <dholbach> that's irrelevant for now
[20:35] <dholbach> in general you will need a gpg key, everything related to it, is explained over here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto
[20:35] <DaveMorris> hendrixski: and anyone else http://www.pastebin.ca/748368
[20:35] <dholbach> we should have a bunch of files now and it should look something like this:
[20:35] <dholbach> brasero_0.5.2-0ubuntu1.diff.gz  brasero_0.5.2.orig.tar.gz        brasero_0.5.90-0ubuntu1.dsc           brasero_0.5.90-0ubuntu1_source.changes
[20:35] <dholbach> brasero_0.5.2-0ubuntu1.dsc      brasero_0.5.90-0ubuntu1.diff.gz  brasero_0.5.90-0ubuntu1_source.build  brasero_0.5.90.orig.tar.gz
[20:35] <dholbach> everybody got that far?
[20:35]  * mbt nods
[20:36] <dholbach> neat-o :)
[20:36] <dholbach> let's try to build it
[20:36] <dholbach> please run:
[20:36] <dholbach>  debuild -us -uc
[20:36] <dholbach> this will build the package but not try to sign it in the end
 QUESTION:  Can this build process be adjusted for SMP systems?  e.g., is there a way to pass -jX to 'make' where X is the number of parallel process desired?
[20:37] <dholbach> mbt: that should happen automatically
[20:37] <dholbach> does that work out for all of you? I get an error message
[20:37] <hendrixski> DaveMorris, thanks.  :-)
[20:37] <mbt> I ask because it just tried to build this package (and failed), but only ever used one of my CPUs
[20:37] <dholbach> can somebody pastebin the result?
[20:38] <DaveMorris> http://www.pastebin.ca/748370 - coz I delete the last 1
[20:38] <dholbach> mbt: in my case it uses both cores, you could ask on #ubuntu-devel about that
[20:38] <dholbach> DaveMorris: I was asking about the result of the build
[20:39] <mbt> http://pastebin.com/m2a85b9fc
[20:39] <mbt> That is as much as my terminal history permits
[20:39] <dholbach> #
[20:39] <dholbach> data-disc.c:107: error: expected specifier-qualifier-list before ‘GtkTooltips’
[20:39] <dholbach> #
[20:39] <dholbach> data-disc.c: In function ‘brasero_data_disc_get_property’:
[20:39] <dholbach> exactly what I get too
[20:39] <dholbach> this is a build failure, nick named FTBFS (fails to build from source)
[20:40] <dholbach> what can we do to try to fix it?
[20:40] <mbt> New upstream, I would guess.
[20:40] <dholbach> mbt: good answer
[20:40] <dholbach> MOTU work or work as an Ubuntu developer is always detective work
[20:40] <dholbach> if you come across bugs like this one, you'll like check what upstream did in the meantime
[20:40] <dholbach> or see what's happening in Debian and other distributions
[20:41] <dholbach> if you're interested in a package it's good to be in touch with all of there people
[20:41] <dholbach> and that's a great thing about packaging: you get to know a lot of people
[20:41] <dholbach> let's get the new upstream source, 0.6.1 is out already:
[20:41] <dholbach>  wget http://ftp.gnome.org/pub/gnome/sources/brasero/0.6/brasero-0.6.1.tar.gz
 QUESTION: debuild will create new files, and the "clean" target might forget to remove some files. Is that a problem? Will they be added to the diff?
[20:41] <seb128> dholbach: GtkToolTips being deprecated in the new GTK I would look if they build with some GTK DEPRECATED option ;-)
[20:41] <dholbach> seb128: upstream fixed it :)
[20:42] <seb128> alright ;-)
[20:42] <dholbach> amarillion: that's usually a sign of a broken clean target
[20:42] <dholbach> amarillion: best to make sure you remove those autogenerated files in the clean target, in debian that's as far as I know a RC bug
 QUESTION:  If, however, a new upstream is not available, I would assume that the proper thing to do is patch it.  Do you modify *.orig.tar.gz, though, or do you do something else to achieve the desired result?
[20:43] <dholbach> mbt: no, we try to leave the .orig.tar.gz as it is, there are only a few cases where it's OK to change it
[20:43] <dholbach> mbt: there are a lot of different packaging patch systems you can use
[20:43] <dholbach> dpatch or cdbs's simple-patchsys among them
[20:43] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide explains about all of them
[20:43] <dholbach> patches are then stored in debian/patches and applied at build time
[20:44] <dholbach> that's a really nice way to keep track of patches, because once you update to a new upstream release, you might just drop some patches, because they were committed to upstream SVN by removing the patch file
[20:44] <dholbach> good question though :)
[20:44] <dholbach> let's go through the steps to update to 0.6.1 again
[20:45] <dholbach>  mv brasero-0.6.1.tar.gz brasero_0.6.1.orig.tar.gz
[20:45] <dholbach>  tar xfz brasero_0.6.1.orig.tar.gz
[20:45] <dholbach> cp -r brasero-0.5.90/debian brasero-0.6.1
[20:46] <dholbach>  cd brasero-0.6.1
[20:46] <dholbach>  dch -i
[20:46] <dholbach> again, we'll change the version number to 0.6.1-0ubuntu1
[20:46] <dholbach> and the upload target to hardy
[20:47] <DaveMorris> [Question] when does hardy as a target open up?
 Quote's dholbach: "in debian that's as far as I know a RC bug". What is RC?
[20:47] <eolo999> whois mdomsch
[20:47] <dholbach> RC means release-critical
[20:47] <dholbach> DaveMorris: it's open already
[20:48] <dholbach> now we'll build the source package again
[20:48] <dholbach>  debuild -S -sa
[20:48] <dholbach> (and ignore the gpg warnings)
[20:48] <dholbach> check that everything went alright, and attempt to build it again
[20:48] <dholbach>  debuild -us -uc
 QUESTION: How about using pbuilder so as not to clutter up things with build-deps etc...?
[20:49] <dholbach> bahadunn: good question, I figured that for this tutorial it might take too long for some (on slow connections) to set up the pbuilder
[20:49] <dholbach> pbuilder will create a minimal environment (just like the build daemons) - a chroot, and install the necessary build-depends in there
[20:49] <dholbach> that way you don't need to install them on your 'main system'
[20:50] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PbuilderHowto has more information on that
 QUESTION:  If a person is going to manage a mediocre number of packages, how would they go about setting up their own dedicated build server?  PPA is nice, but the storage space is rather small for a large number of packages, particularly if you package just emacs and OpenOffice for two releases.
[20:50] <dholbach> mbt: writing a small script that uses pbuilder should be fine, I guess
[20:50] <dholbach> I've been told that setting up 'dak' requires much more effort
 QUESTION: Maybe a seperate pbuilder session sometime then?
[20:51] <dholbach> bahadunn: I believe that PbuilderHowto on the wiki should be sufficient, it's quite good
[20:51] <bahadunn> yes I agree
[20:51] <sistpoty> pbuilder is not session dependant, you can start is as often as you want (or as your box can deal with it)
[20:51] <bahadunn> I asked the question just before you posted the link...
[20:52] <dholbach> ok, great bahadunn, thanks for the question
[20:52] <dholbach> does the package build alright for everybody?
[20:52] <bahadunn> no problem
[20:52] <amarillion> yes it works
[20:52]  * mbt nods
[20:52] <peppych> Finished running lintian.
[20:52] <peppych> think so :)
[20:52] <amarillion> I get a complaint that hardy is not a valid ubuntu version
[20:52] <pascalin> yes
[20:52] <dholbach> rock on!
[20:52] <dholbach> amarillion: I answered in -chat
[20:53] <dholbach> so what we can do now is compare the old and the new versions of the .deb packages
[20:53] <dholbach> get the old .deb file:
[20:53] <dholbach>  wget http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/motu/brasero_0.5.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb
[20:53] <dholbach> and run:
[20:53] <dholbach>  debdiff brasero_0.5.2-0ubuntu1_i386.deb brasero_0.6.1-0ubuntu1_i386.deb      (if you're on i386)
 QUESTION:  Will debdiff work across architectures?
[20:54] <dholbach> mbt: yes, I ran it on amd64 :)
[20:54] <dholbach> debdiff will compare the contents of the two packages and let you see easily what's missing from either of them
[20:54] <dholbach> also it will show you changed dependencies, etc
[20:55] <dholbach> as a maintainer it's really important to check that and be aware of missing files, etc
[20:55] <dholbach> congratulations everybody, we updated a package successfully! :-)
[20:55] <dholbach> any more questions? :-)
[20:56] <dholbach> ok, let's have a five minute break until we move on to the next session
[21:01] <dholbach> alrightie, let's get going for round 2
[21:01] <dholbach> everybody doing alright?
[21:01]  * mbt nods
[21:01] <peppych> yep
[21:01] <dholbach> rock on! :-)
 QUESTION: I just woke up and seems as if i missed the whole session, can i read the logs and ask you any questions later?
[21:02] <dholbach> harrisony: yes, somebody will post the link later on, I'm not sure where to find it right now :)
 QUESTION: I thought a good thing to fix a bug is attaching a debdiff to a bug report... but actually the debdiff output is just a list of files, not the files themselves
[21:02] <dholbach> amarillion: excellent question!
[21:02] <dholbach> amarillion: it depends if you run debdiff on two .deb files or on two .dsc files
[21:03] <dholbach> if you'd propose a new upstream version to get uploaded, you'd probably not attach the source diff
[21:03] <dholbach> but link to the source package you've uploaded somewhere
[21:03] <dholbach> you can use PPA for that (http://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart) or REVU (http://wiki.ubuntu.com/REVU) and just link to the location of the .dsc file
[21:03] <dholbach> (so people can run   dget -x <dsc file>  to get the source and review it)
 dholbach: Thanks for your talk.  Can you address the differences between the x86 and x86-64 packages?  Are all the packages available for both?  What are the policies of Ubuntu between these two architectures?
[21:04] <dholbach> desertc: yes, if you specify  Architecture: any  in debian/control, the source package will be built on all buildds, on all different architectures we use
[21:05] <dholbach> this is necessary for all packages that contain architecture dependent code
[21:05] <dholbach> you'd not need that for packages that contain only scripts (like python) or artwork, etc
[21:05] <dholbach> in their case you'd use    Architecture: all
 QUESTION: What was the bit that didn't cut it in the first session. I notice a new version of brasero being used for this one...
[21:06] <dholbach> effie_jayx: we used 0.5.90 which failed to build (because as seb128 pointed out, GtkToolTip was deprecated in GTK upstream), this has been fixed in 0.6.1
[21:07] <effie_jayx> dholbach,  cool then...
[21:07] <effie_jayx> :D
[21:07] <dholbach> any more questions?
[21:07] <dholbach> before we move on? :)
[21:08] <dholbach> alrightie
[21:08] <dholbach> in session two we'll produce a debdiff
[21:08] <dholbach> which will put you in the position to contribute patches that are ready for submission to review
 QUESTION:  Is there an easy way to clean up build-deps when *not* using pbuilder?  Like the ones we installed earlier?
[21:09] <dholbach> mbt: you can use tools like deborphan for that
[21:09] <dholbach> ok, let's move on
[21:09] <dholbach> let's suppose we're all trying to fix an easy bug
[21:10] <dholbach> I'd like to point out that we have http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Bugs
[21:10] <dholbach> which list a bunch of easy bugs, things like the 'bitesize' tasks
[21:10] <dholbach> in this case we assume somebody complained that the package description of xicc contains 'colour' where it should say 'color' instead
[21:11] <dholbach> this is ridiculous and would be rejected, but let's do it as a simple excercise :)
[21:11] <dholbach> let's check if it's actually true:
[21:11] <dholbach>   apt-cache show xicc
[21:11] <dholbach> Description: set the ICC colour profile for an X display
[21:11] <dholbach>  This utility lets you set an ICC colour profile for an X display, so that
[21:11] <dholbach>  applications can use it to display colour calibrated images.  Applications have
[21:11] <dholbach>  to specifically look for this atom but several applications such as Gimp and
[21:11] <dholbach>  Eye Of Gnome already do.
[21:11] <dholbach> seems the person in the bug report is right
[21:11] <dholbach> let's get the source
[21:11] <dholbach>  dget -x http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/motu/xicc_0.2-2.dsc
[21:12] <dholbach> again, it'll download the .orig.tar.gz the .diff.gz and the .dsc file and extract it automatically for us
[21:12] <dholbach>  cd xicc-0.2
[21:12] <dholbach> and check out debian/control
[21:13] <dholbach> in the binary packages stanza you'll see the package description
[21:13] <dholbach> we'll simply fix it, by running:
[21:13] <dholbach>  sed -i 's/colour/color/g' debian/control
[21:13] <dholbach> (you can do it manually too, if you like)
[21:13] <dholbach> again, we'll write a changelog entry to explain what we did and why
[21:13] <dholbach>  dch -i
[21:14] <dholbach> this time   0.2-2ubuntu1   would be the correct version number
[21:14] <dholbach> 0.2 to indicate the upstream version number
[21:14] <dholbach> -2 indicates the debian revision
[21:14] <dholbach> and ubuntu1 our change
[21:14] <dholbach> we'll change the upload target to hardy again
[21:14] <dholbach> (as it most likely wouldn't get accepted in gutsy-updates anyway)
[21:15] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates explains which kind of updates are accepted there
[21:15] <dholbach> as changelog entry, we'd write something like
[21:15] <dholbach>  "debian/control: changed all occurences of 'colour' to 'color'."
[21:16] <dholbach> it's important to point out the files you touched and why, it will make the work of other maintainers much easier
[21:16] <dholbach> especially in Ubuntu, where all packages are maintained by the whole team
[21:16] <dholbach> now run     debuild -S     to build the source package
[21:17] <dholbach> do you get the following line:
[21:17] <dholbach> dpkg-source: error: Version number suggests Ubuntu changes, but Maintainer: does not have Ubuntu address
[21:17] <dholbach> debuild: fatal error at line 1247:
[21:17] <dholbach> ?
[21:17] <mbt> Actually, I didn't.
[21:17] <effie_jayx> I did
[21:17] <peppych> line 1155 yes
[21:17] <mbt> I got that as a warning, though.
[21:17] <dholbach> that's because of http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField
[21:18] <dholbach> our friends in the Debian project asked us to change the maintainer field for Ubuntu uploads
[21:18] <dholbach> so what we'll do is, change the Maintainer: string in debian/control
[21:18] <dholbach> we'll replace:
[21:18] <dholbach> Maintainer: Ross Burton <ross@debian.org>
[21:18] <dholbach> with
[21:18] <dholbach> XSBC-Original-Maintainer: Ross Burton <ross@debian.org>
[21:18] <dholbach> Maintainer: Ubuntu MOTU Developers <ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com>
[21:19] <dholbach> that way we preserve the original debian maintainer
[21:19] <dholbach> but set the maintainer string to the MOTU team
[21:19] <dholbach> which is the general contact for Universe and Multiverse packages
[21:19] <dholbach> we'll run    debuild -S   again
[21:20] <dholbach> (update-maintainer is a neat script in ubuntu-dev-tools which would actually have done the maintainer change for us)
[21:20] <dholbach> now you should have these files:
[21:20] <dholbach> xicc_0.2-2.diff.gz  xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.diff.gz  xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1_source.build    xicc_0.2.orig.tar.gz
[21:20] <dholbach> xicc_0.2-2.dsc      xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.dsc      xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1_source.changes
[21:20] <effie_jayx> dholbach,  my key... ? debsign: gpg error occurred!  Aborting....
[21:21] <dholbach> effie_jayx: that's to be expected in this tutorial, that's fine
[21:21] <dholbach> if you follow https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto you'll get around that hurdle too
[21:21] <dholbach> now if you run
[21:21] <dholbach>  debdiff xicc_0.2-2.dsc xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.dsc
[21:21] <dholbach> it will show you the source changes we did
[21:21] <dholbach> can somebody pastebin their result somewhere?
[21:22] <dholbach> nobody?
[21:22] <amarillion> just a sec :)
[21:22] <mbt> 1 sec
[21:23] <mbt> http://pastebin.com/m2f58fa1e
[21:23] <peppych> http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1301/
[21:23] <effie_jayx> dholbach, http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/1302/
[21:23] <amarillion> http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/41984/
[21:23] <amarillion> dang... too slow
[21:23] <dholbach> all look good!
[21:23] <dholbach> rock on!
[21:23] <dholbach> great work :-)
[21:23] <effie_jayx> YEAH :D
[21:23] <dholbach>  debdiff xicc_0.2-2.dsc xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.dsc > xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.debdiff
[21:23] <peppych> :)
[21:24] <dholbach> will give you the debdiff file you can attach to the bug report and you fixed the bug
[21:24] <dholbach> now you would just subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors to the bug and get a review
[21:24] <dholbach> first step to become a MOTU: DONE!
[21:24] <dholbach> in the real world, you'd add a   (LP: #1234567)   to the changelog entry
[21:25] <dholbach> (1234567 being the number of the bug)
[21:25] <dholbach> and it would get automatically closed, when the build daemon accepts your package
 QUESTION:  How do you use the debdiff as someone that wants to apply it?  Just patch -p4 < file.debdiff?
[21:25] <dholbach> mbt: exactly, in most cases it's p1, but yeah, you just use patch
[21:26] <dholbach> any more questions?
[21:26] <dholbach> who could imagine walking the steps towards becoming a MOTU now? :-)
[21:26]  * mbt nods
[21:26]  * amarillion too
[21:26] <dholbach> great
 QUESTION: a patch would then be a debdiff between the old and new package?
[21:27] <peppych> peppych nods too
[21:27] <dholbach> effie_jayx: yes, you'd run it on the .dsc files and attach it to the bug report
[21:27] <MrPink> what exactly is this channel... will there really be "classes" here? Like someone telling or showing people how to do stuff? Os is this just a support channel like #ubuntu ?
 QUESTION: right now there are about 70 MOTU's. Is that too few? Debian has about 900 DD's I believe...
[21:27] <mbt> MrPink: Please to go #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[21:27] <dholbach> amarillion: we're actively recruiting :-)
[21:28] <dholbach> amarillion: the MOTU team does a great job and works together with upstreams and Debian maintainers, but I'd like to encourage you all to join in
[21:28] <dholbach> the process is really straight-forward
[21:28] <dholbach> MrPink: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[21:29] <dholbach> any more questions? about packaging? about Ubuntu development? about becoming a MOTU?
[21:29] <dholbach> (about me?) ;-)
 QUESTION: if an MOTU objects to a debdiff, is there an authority to appeal to?
[21:30] <dholbach> pwnguin: you can always discuss packaging changes and problems you have on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com
[21:30] <dholbach> pwnguin: we have quite a lot of people on the sponsoring team who do a very good job, so there will a be not just one pair of eyes on your debdiff
 QUESTION: I've seen mentioned that there are packages in debian that are not in ubuntu. So there is not a 1:1 correspondence, right? What could be reasons for packages not being in ubuntu?
[21:30] <sistpoty> any other MOTU... in case there should real problems between a personal member arise, motu-council (or jono) would be the someone to contact
[21:31] <dholbach> sistpoty: for technical questions, I'd rather think ubuntu-motu@ or ubuntu-devel@
[21:31] <dholbach> but for social problems between maintainers, feel free to talk to me or the motu-council, right
[21:31] <dholbach> amarillion: in most cases this happens, when we turned the auto import of debian source packages off
[21:31] <sistpoty> dholbach: definitely (was just an addition)
[21:31]  * dholbach hugs sistpoty
[21:31] <dholbach> (the MOTU team hugs a lot)
[21:31]  * sistpoty hugs dholbach
[21:31] <dholbach> :-)
[21:31] <pwnguin> dholbach: in my case, its certainly not one i expect to have a lot of favor for overall, but i can imagine situations where one guy refuses a patch that many others would have accepted
[21:32] <dholbach> amarillion: we import source changes of debian during the first phase of the release cycle (if there are no ubuntu changes that could be overwritten)
[21:32] <dholbach> amarillion: in those cases we have to merge semi-manually
[21:32] <dholbach> amarillion: check out http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule for the current plan for hardy (and note the debian import freeze)
[21:33] <dholbach> pwnguin: right, that can happen: some sponsors will ask you to fix little bugs they see in your approach, some probably won't
[21:33] <dholbach> pwnguin: all of them are reasonable and you can talk to them
 QUESTION: What about refreshing docs about packaging, to be more linked to real practices?
[21:34] <dholbach> eolo999: I'm working on that: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide will contain more hands-on examples like on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Recipes
 QUESTION:  Where is more detailed information on using the build system to split packages apart into things like -doc and -dev and -dbg and the like?
[21:34] <dholbach> mbt: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide should contain information on that
[21:34] <dholbach> mbt: it has a reference packages section too, in /Basic I believe
 dholbach, the package in question is batik. One time I requested in #ubuntu-motu that the batik library be packaged, and then somebody said that an old version was already in debian
[21:35] <dholbach> amarillion: it should be in hardy then, if it's not ask on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com
 QUESTION: I read from Wikipedia that it will be Ubuntu Grumpy Groundhog, unstable branch of ubuntu. How many Packages freshness that Grumpy have?
[21:35] <dholbach> willwill: Grumpy is a concept up until now and not implemented yet
[21:35] <dholbach> willwill: the plan is to import svn snapshots of upstream source and build them into packages
[21:36] <dholbach> about the frequency, I don't know
 QUESTION: what's the best way to build a package which has its debian/ directory kept in bzr?
[21:36] <dholbach> Riddell: excellent question
[21:36] <dholbach> some teams decide to not only use the archive as their main source repository but a version control system as well
[21:36] <dholbach> that way you have a team of contributors who don't need to be uploaders yet, but much broader
[21:37] <dholbach> bzr-builddeb is a really useful tool to achieve that
[21:37] <dholbach> you can pass --orig-dir=.. (or some such) to build it with an upstream tarball
 QUESTION: When running dh_make, one of the files generated is watch.ex. Supposedly to automatically track new releases. Can you explain a bit about them? Does that actually work well in practice?
[21:37] <dholbach> amarillion: it works very well
[21:38] <dholbach> amarillion: there's an example at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Recipes
 QUESTION:  When putting packages together, can we do so for main as well as uni-/multi-verse?  e.g., GNU coreutils, which is VERY out of date, needs to be repackaged.  Is there any reason that any one of us could not do that?
[21:38] <dholbach> mbt: updates to tools like coreutils should be coordinated with people on ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
[21:38] <dholbach> mbt: sometimes it's very easy to overlook implications of those changes
[21:39] <dholbach> mbt: is too huge a project to "just do it", but generally, yes: definitely, you can work on anything you like and propose it
[21:39] <mbt> Very true, given the "centralness".  Which is why I was curious.  Thank you.  :)
 QUESTION: which is more important to MOTU: fixing bugs users of Ubuntu experience, or cooperating with upstream? For example, gksudo is mildly broken, and an upstream pam module refuses a 3 line patch on grounds that its a hack
[21:40] <dholbach> pwnguin: the desktop team would deal with gksu, you should file a bug for it, attach the patch and ask for inclusion
[21:40] <pwnguin> no no
[21:40] <dholbach> but yeah, both is important
[21:40] <pwnguin> the patch is to the pam module, not gksudo
[21:40] <dholbach> ah ok
[21:40] <dholbach> in any case, you'd file a bug with the patch attached and subscribe the sponsors team
[21:40] <pwnguin> it would be a massive gksudo patch, which is why its not fixed even though the desktop team knows, and as pursued it with gksudo upstream
[21:40] <dholbach> it's good to link to the upstream discussion too
[21:41] <dholbach> in some cases we decided to override upstream maintainers and do what was best in the situation to accomodate the needs of our users
[21:41] <dholbach> such decision are in some cases inevitable
 Question: Do you need to know any particular programming languages to get involved with packaging, or is there lots you can do if you don't know C++ or whatever?
[21:42] <dholbach> aos101: more important than knowing programing languages is being able to learn, really motivated and being careful about changes you inflict on some million users
[21:42] <dholbach> along the way you'll learn about shell scripting and about Makefiles
[21:42] <dholbach> maybe some python bits, and in case you patch C or C++ source, maybe about those as well
[21:43] <dholbach> you'll learn step by step, but it's not a strict prerequisite to know about C++ or any other language when you start
[21:43] <dholbach> excellent questions
[21:43] <dholbach> any more of them? :)
[21:44] <dholbach> I'd like to reiterate: the cool thing about MOTU is that you can touch some 20000 packages and sky's the limit, you can fix user bugs, implement your own ideas, it's a great place to be involved in
[21:44] <dholbach> especially because you get in touch with so many different people
[21:44] <dholbach> and becoming a MOTU is really straight-forward
 QUESTION:  How does one participate very early in the dev cycle for the next release?
[21:44] <dholbach>  (e.g., Hardy is certainly not going to be usable now, so how does one get started packaging for it and the like)?
[21:44] <dholbach> good question
[21:45] <dholbach> early in the release cycle we merge debian and ubuntu packages
[21:45] <dholbach> http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html for example shows the packages that need merging
[21:45] <radmen> hi
[21:46] <dholbach> it's a great way to get involved, because you can try to actively reduce the delta between ubuntu and debian packages and feed those changes back to debian
[21:46] <nalioth> radmen: class is goin on. please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[21:46] <dholbach> also in the beginning of the release cycle we take a look at NEW packages
[21:46] <radmen> nalioth: sorry, will be quiet from now
[21:46] <dholbach> packages that are not in ubuntu or debian yet
[21:46] <dholbach> after Feature Freeze we mostly try to stabilize and fix as many bugs as we can
[21:46] <dholbach> including fixing FTBFS bugs
[21:47] <dholbach> making packages installable, etc
 QUESTION: I remember playing around with merges, What is MOM? and I know there is another like it but I can't remember the name. which do you use?
[21:47] <dholbach> effie_jayx: MOM is http://merges.ubuntu.com
[21:47] <dholbach> it look at debian and ubuntu packages and spits out a patch which in many cases is ready to be just applied
[21:48] <dholbach> DaD is a community contributed service that does the same but allows comments
[21:48] <dholbach> I mostly used MoM or merged by hand (in the case of desktop packages, we mostly merged and updated to a new upstream version in the same run)
 QUESTION:  Let's say that I write a new piece of software, and want it to go into Ubuntu's universe right away, before the next release.  Is that feasible?  Or is new software required to have reasons or justifications for inclusion?
[21:49] <dholbach> mbt: if it's redistributable (good license) and is not the 10000th copy of something we already have, definitely bring it in! :)
 QUESTION: What the advantage and disadvantage of checkinstall?
[21:49] <dholbach> willwill: checkinstall is a tool intended for users who don't want to bother getting into packaging themselves
[21:49] <dholbach> willwill: we developers don't use it
[21:50] <dholbach> it introduced a lot of problems in the past, I don't know if that's been fixed
[21:50] <dholbach> any more questions? :-)
[21:51] <dholbach> BRING IT ON everybody! I want to see as many of you becoming MOTUs in the hardy cycle as possible! :-)
[21:51] <effie_jayx> dholbach,  thanks ... very enlighting this talk
[21:51] <effie_jayx> :D
[21:51] <DaveMorris> thanks
 QUESTION:  Is there an end-all book for DEB packaging available somewhere that you are aware of?
[21:52] <peppych> effie_jayx + 1
[21:52] <peppych> thanks
[21:52] <dholbach> mbt: there's the debian policy and the debian maintainer guide linked from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Documentation
[21:52] <dholbach> all ubuntu packaging information is going to be merged into http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
[21:52] <dholbach> I'm actively working on that
 QUESTION: is there an official policy for using either debhelper or cdbs?
[21:53] <dholbach> amarillion: no, not at all: I tend to use CDBS, because it makes my life easier
[21:53] <dholbach> but people have reasoned that it lacks documentation and avoid it, but it has proved to be very helpful to me
[21:53] <dholbach> (and avoided copy and pasting from other packages :))
 QUESTION: what do you think is the coolest thing about getting involved with ubuntu?
[21:54] <dholbach> sistpoty: getting to learn people, learning something new every day, making users happy by fixing their bugs, having fun with a bunch of other people :-)
 QUESTION: There are a lot of users practically complaining that when they submit a bug that the teams don't even look at it? What would you comment on that? Shouldn't there be a "just seen by someone from the staff"? Because as it is now, I think some if not many bugs are left behind
[21:54] <sistpoty> and for me it's the amazing community (to add that)
[21:55] <dholbach> savvas: we're working on it and there'll be a session about the bug squad and dealing with bugs later this week
[21:55] <dholbach> it's proven hard to get back to all bugs, but we're doing better and better
 QUESTION:  Is the path to becoming a core dev similar to the one to get to be a MOTU?
[21:55] <dholbach> mbt: yes, it consists of getting more experience and more experience
[21:55] <dholbach> the process is on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopers too
 QUESTION: so if i'm readin gthis right, I can go to  http://merges.ubuntu.com/universe.html and pick "Celestia" for example.  I do the process outlined here and bring it up to the debian version (CVS).  What is the 'base version' ?  How do you prevent all of us in here from all going and doing celestia (multiple effort)
[21:56] <Muzik```> sorry... multiple effort should read redundant effort :)
[21:56] <dholbach> Muzik``: DaD tries to address that by using comments
 QUESTION: follow up to willwill's - how would you see a tool that, while being targeted at end-users just like checkinstall, would strive to create packages that are as standards-abiding as possible? do you think such a tool would end up in better-quality packages (because more people can start very easily making packages) or in worse-quality ones (for exactly the same reason)?
[21:57] <dholbach> LjL: I don't think so - there's a lot to be considered when you do packaging
[21:57] <dholbach> LjL: in some cases it's very easy, but as soon as packages start to depend on other packages' functionality, you'll get into trouble
[21:57] <dholbach> I'm all for making the process easier, but there's no "do it all for me" tool yet
[21:57] <dholbach> ok everybody
[21:57] <dholbach> thanks for all your questions
[21:57] <dholbach> you all ROCK
[21:58] <LjL> thank you
[21:58] <mbt> Thank you for the session!
[21:58] <dholbach> and I hope to see you on the motu mailing lists and the irc channel soon
[21:58] <dholbach> have a great day
[21:58]  * dholbach -> bed :-)
[21:58] <The_Machine> is this chan still +m?
[21:58] <The_Machine> :P
[21:58] <amarillion> thanks a lot
[21:58] <LjL> current session - desktop team?
[21:58] <sistpoty> gn8 dholbach, thanks a lot for the session!
[21:58] <LjL> i just noticed... bah
[21:58] <evand> no, the topic is off
[21:59] <evand> this was just packaging
[21:59]  * dholbach hugs sistpoty
[21:59] <evand> and coming up next is gobuntu
[21:59] <aos101> Thanks for the session.
[21:59]  * sistpoty hugs dholbach again
[21:59] <evand> thanks LjL
[21:59] <LjL> evand: i know
[21:59] <dholbach> :-)
[21:59]  * willwill this what I wait!
[21:59] <LjL> dholbach: sorry for the mislabelling in the topic
[21:59] <evand> ah, my bad
[21:59] <sistpoty> before we move on to the next session, please everyone still interested in packaging mattters join #ubuntu-motu
[21:59] <willwill> dholbach$ thank for the answers :)
[22:00] <evand> OK, before we get started here, allow me to introduce myself and make a few notes.
[22:00] <LjL> Ubuntu Open Week info: Information and Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek | Ubuntu classroom transcripts: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ClassroomTranscripts | Please ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat not here | Current Session: Gobuntu - Evan Dandrea
[22:01] <evand> Hi, I'm Evan Dandrea, I work on Ubuntu as a member of the installer team, but this past release I was tasks with implementing Ubuntu without Restricted, which you all know as Gobuntu
[22:02] <evand> If you are unfamiliar with Gobuntu, please see the Ubuntu website, specifically this page: http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/gobuntu
[22:03] <evand> Now, I am pretty terrbile at following fast moving conversations, so if I miss a "QUESTION" in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, someone please call attention to it.  I'm not going to try and dodge anything ;)
[22:04] <evand> That said, does anyone have a question to start us off with?
[22:04] <evand> (please ask it in #ubuntu-classroom-chat using QUESTION to preface it)
[22:04] <evand> 17:04:29 < mbt> QUESTION:  Does RMS have anything to do with Gobuntu?
[22:04] <evand> 17:04:37 < mbt> (Or are there plans to have him work with it?)
[22:05] <evand> My understanding is that RMS does not have any intention of participating in Gobuntu or giving it his blessing.  However, I do believe that gNewSense, one of the main motivators for creating Gobuntu, has his blessing.
[22:06] <evand> To expand on that, one of our main goals is making it as easy as possible for gNewSense to continue to happen.
[22:06] <evand> By creating Gobuntu, we're trying to make it so that they don't have to derive from an older LTS release and manually rip bits out.
[22:07] <evand> 17:05:23 < lokpest> QUESTION: Will gobuntu only come with gnome _as default_  or will there a KDE version in the future?
[22:08] <evand> As it stands there are only plans for a GNOME-based Gobuntu release, but if someone steps forward and does the legwork for creating a KDE Gobuntu, I as well as others, I imagine, would be willing to help with some of the infrastructure details.
[22:08] <evand> If that's something you'd like to see, I'd suggest you attend the Gobuntu spec meeting at UDS Boston in person or via VoIP
[22:08] <evand> speaking of which
[22:09] <evand> so there's a mailing list, http://lists.ubuntu.com/gobuntu-devel
[22:09] <evand> and on that list I've put up some details about the meeting for the Gobuntu specification for Ubuntu 8.04
[22:10] <evand> bascially, as far of our 6 month release cycle we meet for a week to plan out the features for the next release
[22:10] <evand> this coming week we're going to do that for 8.04 and Gobuntu is a session on there
[22:10] <evand> you don't have to be in Boston (the venue for this event) to attend.  You can dial into the appropriate VoIP line for the room (which I'll post to the mailing list when that's determined)
[22:11] <evand> I encourage everyone who is interested in rolling up their sleeves and working on Gobuntu to attend that
[22:11] <evand> 17:06:08 < samgee> QUESTION: What is gobuntu's relation to gnewsense?
[22:12] <evand> We invited the gNewSense developers to the previous development summit, and created the initial specification for Gobuntu based on input from them.
[22:12] <evand> Ideally we'd like to be a great platform for derivation for them.
[22:13] <evand> We are *not* trying to replace gNewSense.  We were created to make gNewSense's work easier.
[22:13] <evand> created in part, that is
[22:13] <evand> 17:10:48 < edenbeast> QUESTION: Mono .NET some still regard it as  controversial with regards to its legal freedom and  it's gaining prominent places in standard gnome, what's  gobuntu's take on it?
[22:15] <evand> that's a touchy subject for many.  As far as the patent issue goes, Gobuntu is not prepared to strip out any piece of software because of patent claims.  You cannot reasonably write a piece of software and say that it is 100% free of software patents, given the rubber stamp the USPTO seems to yield nowadays.
[22:16] <evand> 17:12:50 < samgee> QUESTION: Is it just licenses that get taken into  consideration or do you exclude patented stuff as well?
[22:16] <evand> ^ covered above
[22:16] <evand> as is this \/
[22:16] <evand> 17:13:27 < lokpest> QUESTION: can you talk expalin why gobuntu reject  patent-encumbered programs, even though FSF says that  this doesnt make it non-free?
[22:16] <evand> we do not reject software covered by patents.  Most of the linux kernel can be construed as being covered by patents despite being free.
[22:17] <evand> 7:14:24 < savvas> so gobuntu is actually the ubuntu-minimal package?
[22:17] <evand> No
[22:17] <evand> Gobuntu is roughly ubuntu-standard, ubuntu-minimal, and gobuntu-desktop
[22:18] <evand> gobuntu-desktop is generated using seeds, for those curious:
[22:18] <evand> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SeedManagement
[22:18] <evand> 17:18:07 < LjL> QUESTION: About patents - i believe Ubuntu itself (not  Gobuntu) already strips out some packages because of patents.  Since I don't suppose you are going to put those packages  "back in", I assume that you will simply consider whatever  standard Ubuntu feels it cannot included "patented enough" to  avoid inclusion?
[22:19] <evand> correct, and I apologize for not being clearer.  We defer the decision to the Ubuntu archive team.
[22:20] <evand> If the archive team feels that there is a serious threat of Ubuntu being sued into the ground by including a piece of software, then they choose to not include it and Gobuntu, by using the Ubuntu archive, doesn't include it either
[22:20] <evand> What I just said should not be taken as a literal interpetation of how they choose what and what does not go into the archive
[22:20] <evand> You'd have to approach them on the exact formula.
[22:21] <evand> 17:18:55 < savvas> QUESTION: (followup) so you provide desktop gui utils for  the customizations (as much as there exist, that is)?
[22:22] <evand> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this.  Gobuntu is released as a installer CD, just like Ubuntu.  It is not treated as just an add-on package.  Does that answer your question or can you clarify?
[22:22] <evand> 17:19:06 < samgee> QUESTION: What do you consider to be not modifiable? For  example, you exclude pdf docs (without source) although  some programs can alter them
[22:24] <evand> Anything that does not include the original source material.  In the case of programs, that's binary blobs.  In the case of media, that's the source document.  In the case of PDFs, I think the distinction would be whether or not it's an image based PDF.
[22:25] <evand> I should note that there is no dictator here.  Gobuntu operates under the same governmental system as Ubuntu.  So if you disagree with a decision, you can always appeal to the tech board.
[22:25] <evand> that that usually only happens if a consensus on something cannot be met
[22:25] <evand> as we work as a team in Ubuntu
[22:25] <evand> no one person "owns" any package
[22:25] <evand> 17:24:07 < samgee> QUESTION: Do you have a policy on supporting closed  formats (like Flash) even if there is free software that  can handle it?
[22:26] <evand> While it's unfortunate that such formats exist, we do include software (such as Gnash, a completely free Flash player) in Gobuntu
[22:27] <evand> Now what we will not do is include flash files in Gobuntu
[22:27] <evand> as those violate what I said above
[22:28] <evand> 17:28:05 < pwnguin> QUESTION: has there been any serious efforts to package  and promote free alternatives to non-free programs in  Gobuntu thus far?
[22:29] <evand> The one major distinction that's gotten a lot of discussion so far is that in 8.04 we're going to probably use Epiphany as the default browser rather than Firefox or Debian's version
[22:29] <pwnguin> what about nvidia?
[22:29] <evand> Personally, I think this is great and we should definitely advocate the fact that we're the distribution that uses Epiphany
[22:30] <evand> pwnguin: do you mean nv or nou\avo (sp?)
[22:30] <pwnguin> sure
[22:30] <pwnguin> nouveau, yes
[22:31] <evand> ok, so it was mentioned in -chat that the default GNOME desktop includes Epiphany.  Right, but do any major distributions make it their default browser?
[22:31] <evand> oh
[22:31] <evand> I think I misunderstood that comment
[22:31] <evand> nevermind :)
[22:32] <evand> pwnguin: The decision to use nouveau over nv would be one that would probably happen at the Ubuntu tech board level.  I think we want to make sure that Gobuntu is stable, and not just a testing ground for Ubuntu.
[22:32] <evand> So when that driver proves to be ready, it most certainly be included
[22:33] <evand> IMHO, I hope that's soon as I cannot stand the nvidia binary driver
[22:33] <evand> 17:28:16 < lokpest>  QUESTION: can u give us a quick explaination of the  "Draconian trademark restrictions" of Firefox (does It  really make it firefox non-free etc)?
[22:34] <evand> To be honest I have not followed the discussions in Debian well enough to give you what I would consider a decent overview, and the question of whether or not it really makes Firefox "non-free" is highly subjective.
[22:34] <pwnguin> theres no such than as a quick explaination of firefox's trademarks
[22:34] <evand> heh
[22:35] <evand> I will say that I think it's an unfortunate fork, but I hope it really turns out to be a blessing for Epiphany here as that browser is long overdue for some attention.
[22:35] <LinuxJuggalo> @now
[22:35] <evand> 17:33:03 < samgee> QUESTION: Do you install the source material of content  together with the content or will it be available in the  src repository?
[22:35] <evand> We install the source material with the content
[22:35] <evand> This is done for Ubuntu as well
[22:35] <evand> See the Examples/ directory
[22:36] <evand> 17:35:23 < pwnguin> QUESTION: how does Ubuntu's current trademark policy sit  with gobuntu?
[22:36] <evand> They are one-in-the-same.  We will not bow to threats from Microsoft or anyone else.
[22:37] <pwnguin> i mean, the ubuntu logo and trademark
[22:37] <evand> I am actually not sure on that as it pertains to the Gobuntu logo and trademark.  I will ask Mark and reply to that question on the gobuntu-devel mailing list.
[22:38] <evand> next question?  Have I missed any more?
[22:38] <evand> Anyone want me to clairfy something?
[22:39] <evand> 17:39:16 < samgee_> QUESTION: Is it possible to upgrade from feisty ubuntu to  gutsy gobuntu?
[22:39] <evand> Good question, and I'm glad you asked it.
[22:40] <evand> No, at the moment it is not possible to upgrade from one to the other.
[22:41] <evand> Given my understanding of how the package system works, or how I assume it to work, it would be quite difficult to do that.  I am curious to find out if it's possible and I'll check into that and reply to the gobuntu-devel list.
[22:41] <evand> 17:40:02 < popey> QUESTION: Will you be at UDS Boston, and if so, what Specs  are you pushing for gobuntu?
[22:41] <evand> Yes, I'll be at UDS Boston and FOSSCamp.
[22:42] <evand> There is a single specification for Gobuntu for UDS Boston:
[22:42]  * popey subscribes
[22:42] <evand> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/gobuntu-hardy
[22:42] <popey> thanks
[22:42] <popey> (see you there)
[22:42] <evand> I encourage everyone to attend.  But if you're going to participate, please make it more of a "I'd like to see this and I have the time and energy to accomplish it" rather than "wouldn't it be great if..." comments
[22:43] <evand> popey: always (I saw you in Spain, but I don't believe we were ever formally introduced)
[22:43] <evand> I could be wrong, I have a *terrible* memory
[22:43] <popey> bummer
[22:43] <popey> i was there, yes
[22:43] <evand> 17:40:25 < tehk> QUESTION: How functional are the free java packages, and  Gnash. Sorry if this was discussed earlier
[22:44] <evand> Free java, I'm not sure as I have not tested icedtea yet.  Gnash works quite well for me, but ymmv.
[22:44] <evand> 17:41:44 < Zaratrust> QUESTION: is there any kind of relationship between  gobuntu devs and the gnewsense devs?
[22:45] <evand> Yes, we invited them to UDS Spain to make sure that this project helped them further theirs.  I hope we have a continuing relationship with them where they derive from Gobuntu in the future and feed us back suggestions and patches.
[22:46] <evand> 17:42:44 < samgee_> QUESTION: Is gobuntu completely free now or is it still a  work in progress?
[22:46] <evand> THANK YOU for asking this.
[22:46] <evand> Gobuntu is a work in progress.
[22:46] <evand> 7.10 includes Firefox, which is a big problem.
[22:46] <evand> It also has some evil kernel modules.
[22:47] <evand> Making a completely free distribution is a monumental task (as the gNewSense developers)
[22:47] <evand> But it's something we intend to accomplish
[22:47] <evand> It will go much quicker as the project as a community picks up steam and there's more of you contributing patches
[22:47] <evand> Remember, you don't need to be an Ubuntu developer to get work done
[22:48] <evand> I'm a lowely MOTU and despite my changes to things like the seeds needing to get approval, I did a fair amount of legwork for Gobuntu so far
[22:48] <evand> but you don't even need to have any kind of Ubuntu association
[22:48] <evand> Just subscribe to the mailing list.  Find something you'd like to change, discuss it, and create a patch.
[22:49] <evand> If you don't understand how some part of the Ubuntu/Gobuntu infrastructure works, *ask*!
[22:49] <evand> 17:44:50 < pwnguin> QUESTION: How can gobuntu bring in more developers  interested in a completely Free system while still  relying on a non-free support system?
[22:50] <evand> Ouch.  Well, I would argue that Canonical has every intention of open sourcing Launchpad.
[22:50] <evand> We will probably remove links to LP in the menus, however.
[22:50] <evand> But I think setting up a separate bugzilla is a bit too much work over the long term
[22:51] <evand> Of course, we can discuss that at length on the mailing list or at UDS
[22:51] <evand> 17:45:20 < desertc> QUESTION: Other than producing an operating system for  enthusiasts of Free Software, how do you see Gobuntu  playing in the wider world?  Are there bigger niches that  you see this alternative OS being effective?  Are there  organizations that cannot use Ubuntu because of patent  concerns that you are trying to help?  Or do you see this
[22:51] <evand>  as a work i progress to build an operating csystem  comparable in function to Ubuntu as the features of st
[22:51] <evand> 17:45:20 < desertc> rictly Free Software improve?
[22:52] <evand> I know of no existing relationships with such organizations, but if they exist, I'd love to see them use Gobuntu.
[22:52] <evand> Our primary goal is being a top notch *free software* distribution for derivation.
[22:53] <evand> But there's no reason why we cannot expand beyond that
[22:53] <evand> But it's somewhat early to start hunting nitches.  Especially when we have quite a ways to go before we accomplish that first part. :)
[22:53] <evand> 17:47:31 < Zaratrust> QUESTION: still regarding gNewSense, what are the main  differences between gobuntu and gNewSense?
[22:54] <evand> We hope to be the platform that they derive from.  Our goal is to make it extremely easy for them to base their distribution off of every release, not just the LTS ones.
[22:54] <evand> As far as differences, that's up to them
[22:54] <evand> They choose (I believe) to keep .NET out
[22:55] <evand> on that, they make take a more liberal stance on software patents than we do
[22:55] <evand> But we want to work together and define a clear path for collaboration between Gobuntu and gNewSense.
[22:55] <evand> 17:47:32 < pwnguin> QUESTION: what's the deal with 3945 wifi? i heard about  an iwl driver as an alternative to the version the  restricted driver tool notifies me about?
[22:56] <evand> I'm not familiar with that issue, you'd have to take it up with the kernel team (#ubuntu-kernel).  Or if you get no response there (though I cannot see why you wouldn't), I can talk to Ben Collins directly next week.
[22:57] <evand> 17:50:13 < sistpoty> QUESTION: evand: where can interested people come  together after the meeting and ask questions to gobuntu  devs? (hint: should be answered as last question of the  meeting;)
[22:57] <evand> Thanks for the hint :)
[22:57] <evand> Please come and join the Gobuntu mailing list
[22:57] <evand> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/gobuntu-devel
[22:57] <evand> To quote Mark:
[22:58] <evand> "Please don't use this list as a forum for demands about your ideal platform - use it to discuss the work you are willing to put into bringing Gobuntu more into line with that ideal."
[22:58] <evand> and a follow up to that from him:
[22:58] <evand> "Gobuntu exists as a forum for action - it will only be as good as the effort that goes into it. Colin, Evan, Daniel Holbach and others will help anyone who wants to put time and effort into Gobuntu achieve that goal."
[22:58] <evand> Also, please plan on attending the Gobuntu spec session at UDS Boston
[22:58] <evand> I'll post the exact date and time of that as soon as it's available, on the mailing list
[22:59] <evand> the associated spec as mentioned before can be found here:
[22:59] <evand> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/gobuntu-hardy
[23:00] <evand> we will come out of that with a specific list of things to get done for Hardy, so it's pretty important that we have as many willing contributors there so we can reach consensus
[23:00] <evand> but fear not if you cannot make it and your thoughts don't make it to that document
[23:00] <evand> there's nothing stopping you from posting patches of your own to the mailing list
[23:00] <evand> and you can do that right up to the Freeze (see the release schedule for Ubuntu)
[23:00] <evand> THANKS EVERYONE!
[23:01] <popey> thanks evand
[23:01] <evand> I hope I hear from you all on the mailing list soon
[23:01] <samgee_> thanks evand
[23:01] <evand> and lets make Gobuntu 8.04 rock!
[23:06] <sistpoty> thanks evand for the session!
[23:08] <willwill> thanks!
[23:08] <willwill> i just awake (4am) for this session!
[23:08] <Zaratrust> thank you