[08:05] <MacSlow> Greetings everybody!
[08:06] <kraut> moin
[08:06] <MacSlow> hi kraut
[08:09] <kraut> hi MacSlow
[12:08] <flint> ogra, Is there and Edubuntu meeting on this channel soon?
[12:08] <flint> @schedule
[12:08] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 24 Oct 20:00: Edubuntu Team | 30 Oct 16:00: Kernel Team | 31 Oct 12:00: Edubuntu Team | 07 Nov 20:00: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 15:00: Community Development Team
[12:09] <ogra> flint, 20:00 UTC
[12:09] <flint> @schedule New York
[12:09] <ubotu> Schedule for America/New_York: 24 Oct 16:00: Edubuntu Team | 30 Oct 12:00: Kernel Team | 31 Oct 08:00: Edubuntu Team | 07 Nov 15:00: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 10:00: Community Development Team
[12:10] <flint> ogra, thanks
[15:59]  * asac waves
[15:59] <calc> hi
[15:59] <asac> @time
[15:59] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 24 2007, 15:00:01 - Next meeting: Edubuntu Team in 4 hours 59 minutes
[16:00] <evand> hi
[16:00] <ArneGoetje> hi
[16:00] <cjwatson> good afternoon
[16:00] <bryce> morning
[16:00] <asac> hmm can we get our meetings in this channel on the fridge?
[16:00] <cjwatson> doko_,lool,seb128: ping
[16:00] <seb128> cjwatson: hi
[16:01]  * lool w00t
[16:01] <cjwatson> if somebody would like to volunteer as secretary to get our meetings onto the Fridge, I would welcome that
[16:01]  * asac has no idea _how_ to do that ... but would volunteer
[16:02] <cjwatson> I have no idea how either, which is why I'm asking :-)
[16:02] <lool> I think there's an ics for the fridge and there's another one for our meetings, perhaps people maintaining the fridge could use it?
[16:02] <cjwatson> I suspect it involves mailing fridge-devel
[16:02] <doko_> pong
[16:03] <asac> cjwatson: i will figure out ;)
[16:03] <asac> is it worth an ACTION? :)
[16:03] <cjwatson> it is now, I'll note it
[16:04] <asac> ok
[16:04] <lool> asac: Just in case that's useful, http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event/ical and http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=15dh3ig0tj98ot7pchdqrvl09g%40group.calendar.google.com
[16:04] <cjwatson> so, I don't see any agenda items from folks; anything to raise, or are we saving it all for our upcoming meeting marathons?
[16:04] <asac> save +1
[16:05] <cjwatson> I mainly wanted to take the opportunity to talk to people a bit about fosscamp and uds before we all set off
[16:05] <cjwatson> for veterans, FOSSCamp is new; for new people, everything is new
[16:06] <evand> given the past two UDS, should we expect the VoIP sessions to not be saved again?  I'm debating going out and buying a voice recorder just in case.
[16:06] <cjwatson> I don't think you should rely on getting voice recordings
[16:06] <cjwatson> a voice recorder is an option, though I would recommend being more religious about making sure every session has a secretary at the start
[16:07] <cjwatson> we have learned from last time and will be presenting a launchpad intro in a plenary session at the start, and I hope printed sheets as well
[16:07] <evand> that is my intention, but even with good notes I often wish I remembered *exactly* what someone said
[16:08] <asac> about launchpad ... i am not sure if i subscribed myself on launchpad for attending uds ... how can i figure out if i am now subscribed?
[16:08] <cjwatson> asac: that's a good point
[16:08] <cjwatson> https://launchpad.net/sprints/uds-boston-2007
[16:08] <cjwatson> there is an "Attendees" expander
[16:09] <asac> ah  ... i really did it;)
[16:09] <cjwatson> (which I'm not in, *cough*)
[16:09] <asac> lol
[16:09] <cjwatson> please follow my example and register your attendance if you haven't already ;-)
[16:09] <bryce> oops, me either
[16:09] <cjwatson> I think the scheduling frankenstein we're using actually has you all hardcoded as attending, but please register anyway to avoid relying on it
[16:10] <bryce> how are blueprints getting decided for the agenda?
[16:11] <asac> cjwatson: i know i came up with it lates ... but is there still a slot in the core schedule for application-qa-community
[16:11] <asac> (no idea if it matters at all)
[16:11] <cjwatson> I'll finish talking about fosscamp (briefly) and then move onto UDS
[16:12] <cjwatson> as I think you've all been told, FOSSCamp is an ad-hoc conference to help improve communication with upstreams
[16:12] <cjwatson> the scheduling will happen on the day, by means of a whiteboard or post-it notes or similar low-tech
[16:13] <cjwatson> please come with an informal list of things you want to discuss with people, and make sure to grab schedule slots early
[16:13] <cjwatson> there's a list of whom Canonical has sponsored to attend at https://wiki.canonical.com/UdsCambridgeSponsorships (under BarCamp)
[16:13] <cjwatson> (since the naming changed during planning)
[16:13] <cjwatson> if you were responsible for inviting somebody, please make sure to take advantage of that and talk with them :-)
[16:14] <cjwatson> otherwise, it should be lower-pressure than UDS, and a good opportunity to ramp up, not to mention figuring out what your upstreams are doing by way of input into UDS
[16:15] <cjwatson> OK, so the 10000-foot view of UDS scheduling
[16:15] <cjwatson> we have a core schedule and an automatic schedule
[16:15] <lool> cjwatson: I see Julien Cristau listed on the page, but I met him IRL last week and he never heard of the event; is this the same Cambridge?
[16:15] <cjwatson> lool: he's on for UDS, not FOSSCamp
[16:16] <cjwatson> lool: if he didn't hear about it, that's unfortunate, check with clan
[16:16] <lool> Ok, I will
[16:16] <cjwatson> the core schedule is what we want to make sure gets discussed, and is scheduled with some care by hand
[16:16] <cjwatson> (in the past we had problems with important things getting bitten by autoscheduler bugs, hence this practice)
[16:17] <cjwatson> http://people.ubuntu.com/~scott/uds-boston-2007/ in the unlikely event that you haven't already seen it
[16:17] <cjwatson> we can still make changes to the core schedule, so if there's something important you want, mail me the details, preferably with a spec already registered in Launchpad
[16:17] <cjwatson> however, the autoscheduler will be used to fill in the gaps
[16:18] <cjwatson> specs that are proposed and accepted for uds-boston-2007, that have a priority set, and that have status New or Discussion (phew) will be considered for scheduling
[16:18] <cjwatson> (I may have missed out a condition or two there, so if it breaks, come to me)
[16:19] <cjwatson> obviously this is dependent on the necessary people being available in some slot
[16:19] <cjwatson> try not to make me "participation essential" for meetings as otherwise it'll probably never get scheduled :-)
[16:20] <cjwatson> however, there is actually a fair bit of room in the platform track
[16:20] <lool> Are we to set ourselves participation essential or is the person motivating the spec supposed to mark the important people as such?
[16:20] <cjwatson> so yes, there is space for more sessions
[16:20] <cjwatson> lool: I *believe* that the autoscheduler will consider the assignee and the drafter as implicitly essential
[16:20] <asac> cjwatson: ok ill mail you about the application qa thing then
[16:21] <cjwatson> but if you think you really need to be at something, then yes, feel free to mark yourself as participation essential
[16:21] <cjwatson> the semantic there is "this spec probably can't be properly sorted out without this person"
[16:22] <lool> Ok, thanks
[16:22] <cjwatson> any further questions about the next week?
[16:22] <ArneGoetje> so, should I register specs for each topic I sent to you for the i18n round table session?
[16:23] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: it may be appropriate to do so after the roundtable discussion, and then they can go onto the agenda for the next day
[16:23] <cjwatson> the colloquial term you'll hear for this is "breakout sessions"
[16:23] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: ok
[16:23] <bryce> I had marked some existing X specs for this UDS a while back, but I'm not seeing any of them here.  Should I just go ahead and create new specs for them?
[16:23] <cjwatson> bryce: mail me a list and I'll look into it
[16:24] <bryce> ok
[16:24] <cjwatson> bear in mind that the schedule in ~scott is just the core schedule
[16:24] <cjwatson> the automatic schedule stuff will be filled in first thing each morning
[16:24] <bryce> it's not showing up on sprints/uds-boston-2007 either
[16:24] <cjwatson> ok, definitely mail me
[16:24] <cjwatson> next: roundtables
[16:25] <cjwatson> I have two confirmed roundtables, two further ideas, and five slots in total
[16:25] <cjwatson> the roundtable sessions are 45-minute sessions that aren't there to produce specs, but to talk through a relatively large topic and come up with ideas for specific plans of attack
[16:26] <cjwatson> or even just "how could we improve all this mess in future"-type stuff
[16:26] <cjwatson> the two I have confirmed are internationalisation (arne) and CD size control (doko)
[16:27] <cjwatson> the two maybes are bug reporting improvements and derivatives; I'd welcome somebody to chair those, though I'll probably chair one myself
[16:27] <cjwatson> any more ideas for things that could benefit from a fairly large number of people?
[16:27] <cjwatson> (don't say "paintball")
[16:27] <cjwatson> for those who were in Sevilla, this is sort of an evolution of what we were calling "forums" then
[16:28] <cjwatson> ok, if you think of anything, please mail me or talk to me at FOSSCamp about it
[16:29] <cjwatson> the last thing I have is that some people (particularly newcomers) have asked for training sessions, and we're planning to fit those in at allhands
[16:29] <ArneGoetje> question: do we need to register ourselves for sessions we want to attend or do we just walk in whatever interests us?
[16:30] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: in RFC-speak, you SHOULD register but MAY walk in
[16:30] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: where to register?
[16:30] <cjwatson> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/<specname>/+subscribe
[16:30] <ArneGoetje> ah...
[16:31]  * ArneGoetje is not familiar with this sytem yet...
[16:31] <asac> cjwatson: maybe you can give us (new ones) an idea about all-hands as well? what kind of work? do we expect to happen there?
[16:31] <cjwatson> registration means you'll automatically get mail about wiki page updates following the session on which you may want to comment, which can be useful
[16:32] <cjwatson> asac: ok, fair question
[16:32] <cjwatson> AllHands is Canonical's yearly whole-company meeting; individual teams see each other reasonably frequently but it's not often that we meet other parts of the company
[16:33] <cjwatson> so its purposes include:
[16:34] <cjwatson>  * learning about what other parts of the company are doing (which has an effect on what we do, even if it's not obvious at times; it is helpful to be aware of it)
[16:35] <cjwatson>  * meetings about projects that are commercially-sensitive
[16:35] <cjwatson>  * training sessions, perhaps on things that cross teams (Bazaar, Python, Launchpad, Landscape, etc.)
[16:35] <cjwatson>  * induction for new staff, you know the sort of thing that happens at a real company :-)
[16:36] <cjwatson>  * social interaction; it is much easier to work with people when you've chatted with them face to face
[16:36] <evand>  * paintball? ;)
[16:37] <simira> :)
[16:37] <cjwatson> I'm sure there'll be some fun as well, yes :-)
[16:37] <cjwatson> the agenda so far is on the wiki, so please go and look
[16:37] <simira> I'm so sorry I can't come to the uds :( Hope to be with you guys next year
[16:40] <evand> so is this going to be similiar to UDS in that we might not be scheduled for a meeting but we're welcome to sit in on them?
[16:40] <cjwatson> yes, indeed generally encouraged if you aren't otherwise busy
[16:40] <cjwatson> if in doubt, feel free to ask
[16:40] <evand> ok
[16:40] <cjwatson> there might be some private sessions but the worst that happens is that somebody apologises and tells you to go away :-)
[16:41] <evand> haha
[16:41] <cjwatson> and the *really* last thing I have is to remind people that tomorrow is a free day off for the Canonical distro team
[16:41] <cjwatson> since we'll all be travelling and then working hard for quite a while
[16:42] <seb128> \o/
[16:42] <ArneGoetje> good... need some time to pack my things. :)
[16:42] <cjwatson> me too
[16:42] <cjwatson> Oh, would anyone like to be a platform representative on some QA team tracks?
[16:42] <cjwatson> they have asked for somebody to help review technical plans
[16:42] <cjwatson> doesn't have to be a single person
[16:43] <slangasek> sounds interesting
[16:43] <seb128> cjwatson: I'm happy to go to QA sessions
[16:43] <cjwatson> excellent; in particular they have some automatic testing work that's going to bleed over into things we do
[16:44] <cjwatson> OK, if I don't get round to explicitly scheduling you guys for it, please go along as you have time
[16:44] <seb128> ok
[16:44] <evand> I'll be in the automatic testing meeting for sure
[16:45] <cjwatson> right, sounds like that's a wrap, so adjourned. Bonne voyage!
[16:45] <cjwatson> and see you all in Boston :-)
[16:45] <slangasek> see y'all in Cambridge :)
[16:45] <asac> see you all in boston :)
[16:45] <asac> thanks
[16:46] <evand> safe travels to all
[16:46] <seb128> cjwatson: thanks
[16:46] <evand> thanks
[16:46] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[16:46] <bryce> cya all!
[16:47] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: BTW: when we arrive at the Hotel, do we have some scheduled meeting time, or do we just check in ourselves and look who is there already?
[16:50] <evand> ArneGoetje: I'll let cjwatson reply as well, but my experience has always been that the first night is there to get settled in and hang out.  So you check in and look for familiar faces (or announce yourself on IRC if you're new)
[16:53] <simira> cjwatson: have a nice day off, and a nice trip. :)
[16:53] <cjwatson> ArneGoetje: yes, what evand said. There are usually folks around in the lobby or the bar, but failing that, get a head-start on the jetlag :-)
[16:54] <ArneGoetje> cjwatson: ok, I'll try... with 13 hours time difference that's tough. :)
[16:55] <evand> yay, finally no jet lag
[16:55] <calc> 13h ouch
[16:57] <ArneGoetje> BTW: do we have a special IRC channel or do we just use the usual ones?
[16:59] <heno> meh, doesn't look like the QA meeting is o the Fridge schedule
[17:00] <heno> but I take it the chan is free
[17:01] <simira> heno, how are you?
[17:01] <liw> I see no objections
[17:01] <liw> heno, shall we start?
[17:01] <heno> hey, simira :)
[17:01] <simira> I see a liw also!
[17:01] <liw> hi, simira
[17:01] <simira> hi :) when did you convert to ubuntu?
[17:02]  * pedro_ waves
[17:02]  * ogasawara is here
[17:02] <simira> well, have a nice meeting, I'm heading home for dinner
[17:02]  * stgraber too
[17:02] <liw> simira, http://liw.iki.fi/liw/log/2007-09.html#20070924b -- exactly one month ago
[17:02] <evand> ArneGoetje: there's usually a #uds-boston or some such channel.
[17:02]  * bdmurray is lurking in the shadows
[17:03] <heno> ok, let's start
[17:03] <liw> shall I chair? heno? stgraber?
[17:03] <simira> liw: wow, grats!
[17:03] <simira> liw: you're going to Boston then, lucky...
[17:03] <heno> liw: go ahead :)
[17:03] <simira> (I'm not the least jealous... :( )
[17:03] <liw> I've not done this before, let's hope I'm not messing things up
[17:03] <liw> #startmeeting
[17:03] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:03. The chair is liw.
[17:03] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:04] <liw> we don't have much of an agenda prepared
[17:04] <liw> [TOPIC] post-release bug status
[17:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  post-release bug status
[17:04] <heno> I just posted a straw man one now
[17:04] <liw> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam -- right, at the bottom of the page now
[17:05] <heno> my favourite bug graph this week http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/plots/update-manager-month-unconfirmed.png
[17:05] <liw> what's the situation with bugs now, almost a week after the release?
[17:05] <liw> uh oh, that doesn't look good
[17:05] <heno> poor mvo really gets flooded just after release
[17:05] <liw> mvo?
[17:06] <heno> we should help out with these I think
[17:06] <bdmurray> I think some of them are invalid, just temporary issues with mirrors, etc
[17:06] <heno> bdmurray: can you try some bughelper duplication-finding magic on those?
[17:06] <mvo> liw: hello
[17:06] <liw> do I read that graph correctly: it shows the number of new, untriaged bugs each day?
[17:07] <heno> are there lots of apport-generated ones?
[17:07] <mvo> that is quite possible
[17:07] <mvo> yes, those are mostly auto-generated
[17:07] <mvo> we have e.g. ~50 duplicates for a adept bug, let me dig the bugnumber
[17:08] <heno> liw: right, see http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/update-manager.html for the interactive version
[17:08] <mvo> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/update-manager/+bug/154771
[17:08] <bdmurray> 153500 maybe?
[17:08] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 154771 in update-manager "Kubuntu 7.10 Upgrading to Kubuntu 7.10 and after gives error and says Distribution is Up To Date" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[17:08] <liw> is there automation for finding duplicated, automatically reported bugs?
[17:08] <mvo> bdmurray: yes, that is the other one
[17:08] <heno> http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/ for other packages
[17:08] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~brian/testing_graphs/ for other packages
[17:09] <mvo> the problem with the update-manager bugs is that each update problem gets to this package first
[17:09] <bdmurray> liw: I believe ther is for crash reports
[17:09] <pedro_> liw, for stacktraces yes, don't know if there's one for that kind of issues
[17:09] <heno> mvo: so you don't sound too worried
[17:09] <mvo> even if its really a bug in e.g. a postinst
[17:10] <mvo> its certainly not good
[17:10] <mvo> our upgrade is fragile, mostly because of the fact that for ~2000 installed package ~4000 maintainer scripts gets run and some are really fragile
[17:11] <mvo> it used to be a upgrade error if e.g. invoke-rc.d can't stop a daemon
[17:11] <mvo> -> maintainer script failre, upgrade error
[17:11] <liw> mvo, do you think the fragility could be lessened by more vigorous pre-release testing using automated tools?
[17:11] <bdmurray> mvo: did you find anything out about the medibuntu repo ones?
[17:12] <heno> mvo: I guess you and liw should talk a bit about upgrade testing at UDS
[17:12] <mvo> same for .e.g python. if python-central is not able to compile py modules (e.g. because of locally installed stuff) the upgrade may fail
[17:12] <mvo> liw: to a certain extend yes
[17:12] <mvo> liw: one big issue is that we do not test universe packages enough for upgradability
[17:12] <heno> mvo: what's the limiting factor on test coverage; coding tests or HW to run on?
[17:12] <Lutin> bdmurray: what are the medibuntu-related ones ?
[17:12] <cjwatson> we made python a bit less fragile in the gutsy cycle by at least ensuring that debconf doesn't fail to configure in that case
[17:12] <liw> mvo, we should test universe packages as well, certainly
[17:13] <mvo> liw: but then its a problem with our paradigma, maintainer script fails -> upgrade fails
[17:13] <heno> imagine if we wanted to run a silly amt of permutations of upgrade scenarios
[17:13] <mvo> heno: time
[17:13] <heno> mvo: as in dev time?
[17:13] <bdmurray> bug 153948 is an example
[17:13] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 153948 in rosetta "Launchpad translations take a plain '%' char as a format string when it's not a format string" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153948
[17:13] <mvo> cjwatson: yes, I think we do better than before (with invoke-rc.d as well)
[17:13] <mvo> bdmurray: no, sorry
[17:13] <bdmurray> Lutin: bug 153958 is an example
[17:13] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 153958 in update-manager "update-manager problem when upgrading from Feisty to Gutsy" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153958
[17:13] <mvo> heno: dev time to setup the tests
[17:14] <mvo> heno: the currently available auto-upgrade tester could test universe as well, the code is there
[17:14] <Lutin> bdmurray: this url has been deprecated for months
[17:14] <mvo> heno: but it takes time to generate the base image for the upgrade test and especially in universe quite a few packages fail to install
[17:14] <heno> I wonder how many of the bugs we are getting involve universe packages
[17:14] <bdmurray> Lutin: well, apparently not everyone knows that
[17:15] <liw> it would be possible to set up piuparts for example to break invoke-rc.d and see what happens, might be an interesting thing to do
[17:15] <mvo> heno: the other issue is that the upgrade takes a lot of time with  a lot of packages
[17:15] <mvo> heno: I did tests with ~12000 installed packages and dpkg eat ~500 mb of real mem
[17:15] <Lutin> bdmurray: unfortunately :/
[17:16] <liw> mvo, that's thankfully a problem that can be solved by throwing hardware at it
[17:16] <mvo> liw: if invoke-rc.d is broken, every upgraded daemon fails and that makes the upgrade fail (or at least it gives scary errors)
[17:16] <heno> mvo: right, I'm thinking it would be cool to combine this with other tests, like server testing that needs HW anyway
[17:16] <mvo> right
[17:16] <liw> mvo, right, the point would be to see how much stuff breaks by that kind of thing
[17:17] <mvo> right
[17:17] <heno> so just to wrap up the topic:
[17:17] <Lutin> bdmurray: does this kind of bug _break_ the upgrade ? I wouldn't believe it
[17:17] <mvo> I didn't managed to analyze the bugreports fully yet, but from what i have seen over the weekend it seem a lot of errors are releated to getting the upgrades because of server overload (especially mirrors) and then packages breaking during the upgrade
[17:18] <heno> bdmurray, pedro_, ogasawara: would you say the bug report impact from the release has been noticeable, but not alarming?
[17:18] <ogasawara> heno: yes
[17:18] <pedro_> i thought it would be worse
[17:19] <pedro_> we indeed get a lot of reports during the weekend but nothing alarming
[17:19] <heno> ok, great
[17:19] <heno> next topic?
[17:19] <bdmurray> my concern is us fallling further behind in the next 2 weeks though
[17:19] <liw> [AGREED] the bug report impact from the release has been noticeable, but not alarming
[17:19] <MootBot> AGREED received:  the bug report impact from the release has been noticeable, but not alarming
[17:20] <liw> [TOPIC] mobile platform test cases
[17:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  mobile platform test cases
[17:20] <heno> bdmurray: with UDS and AllHands getting in the way, true
[17:21] <heno> any one here have experience with the mobile platform?
[17:21] <liw> not me
[17:21] <ogasawara> heno: I don't
[17:21] <pedro_> i dont...
[17:22] <bdmurray> I've used a mobile device before. ;)
[17:22] <heno> we need some better test plans there; But I'll email some people
[17:23] <heno> (it was worth asking :) ) ; ok, next topic
[17:23] <liw> [TOPIC] testing plans for hardy
[17:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  testing plans for hardy
[17:24] <heno> I seem to remember we had various long-term issues we wanted to discuss last week, but cut short
[17:24] <heno> hence the general testing and bug topics on the agenda
[17:25] <heno> has everyone going to UDS looked at the proposed topics and subscribed?
[17:25] <liw> I'm trying to find the log from the previous meeting
[17:26] <liw> I've looked at and subscribed to all relevant UDS topics I know of
[17:26] <heno> you need to subscribe to the specs to be scheduled for the meetings
[17:26]  * ogasawara needs to subscribe then
[17:26] <heno> yeah, please do that before UDS starts
[17:26] <liw> http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20071017_1719.html -- that should be our previous meeting
[17:26] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20071017_1719.html -- that should be our previous meeting
[17:27] <heno> I'll go through the list later today and subscribe other distro people to things that seem relevant as well
[17:28] <liw> nothing much in that log, though
[17:28] <liw> I'll re-iterate my intention of concentrating, to the extent possible, on automating tests, starting with using existing tools of various kinds
[17:29] <liw> anyone else?
[17:29] <heno> right; system-level stuff before new year (est.) and then make a start on gui-based testing after new year
[17:29] <liw> anything else?
[17:29] <liw> yeah, like that
[17:30] <heno> I have another topic: QA resource page
[17:31] <liw> let's do the remainign one in the wiki first
[17:31] <liw> [TOPIC] bug management plans for hardy
[17:31] <MootBot> New Topic:  bug management plans for hardy
[17:31] <liw> I have the feeling we should try to keep the number of untriaged bugs and the number of open bugs as low as possible -- it's easier to do triage if there's only a small number of bugs to work on
[17:31] <liw> but I haven't participated in triage at all yet
[17:32] <heno> a noble goal
[17:33] <liw> let's see if it is a practical one as well
[17:33] <liw> anything else about bug management?
[17:33] <heno> that either means cloning more triagers, tightening policy (closing more bugs), making it more difficult to file bugs, etc.
[17:33] <bdmurray> I think writing some bughelper clue files for previous high profile bugs to identify duplicates and cleanup some packages might be worthwhile
[17:34] <heno> which may all be valid choices
[17:34] <heno> bdmurray: 'clean up some packages' -> the clue files for them?
[17:36] <bdmurray> Like mvo mentioned an update-manager bug earlier, lets write a clue file for that and other update-manager bugs and see how many dupes we can find and what affect that has on the number of update-manager bugs
[17:37] <heno> bdmurray: right, this is a good time for that as we're not under the pressure of a release
[17:37] <davmor2> Sorry I'm late :(
[17:37] <bdmurray> well, we also need to keep an eye out for sru candidate bugs
[17:37] <bdmurray> but I think some of the reports may help with that
[17:38] <davmor2> SRU?
[17:38] <bdmurray> stable release update
[17:38] <davmor2> ta
[17:40] <liw> anything else on this topic?
[17:41] <heno> next?
[17:41] <liw> [TOPIC] QA resource page
[17:41] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA resource page
[17:41] <liw> heno?
[17:41] <heno> I just posted this page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Resources
[17:42] <heno> I'd like us to bring up a few on-line resources about QA at these meetings each week
[17:42] <heno> there is lots we can all learn out there
[17:42] <heno> as a new team I think that would be valuable
[17:43] <liw> I agree
[17:43] <heno> We could all just add links to that page, but I'd like them to be mentioned here in some way
[17:43] <heno> a long list of links is not that useful
[17:44] <liw> mentioning them here would be good
[17:44] <liw> also, perhaps adding a few words of description to each link?
[17:44] <liw> [LINK] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Resources
[17:44] <heno> I wonder if we could ask each person to bring one item to the meeting each week and say two lines about it?
[17:44] <MootBot> LINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Resources
[17:45] <liw> I'd rather have people mention anything they happen to find
[17:45] <heno> it could be an article, research paper, good blog entry about QA, video, etc.
[17:45] <liw> in a repeating topic that happens every week
[17:45] <heno> ok, that works too
[17:45] <davmor2> sounds good :)
[17:46] <liw> I'll add that topic to the agenda now so we don't forget
[17:46] <bdmurray> And what is the purpose?  I'd have to stop doing something else to do this.
[17:46] <heno> these are not required reading of course, just recommended :)
[17:46] <heno> bdmurray: if you don't feel it helps you then you don't need to
[17:47] <heno> you might want to glance at what is being posted though
[17:47] <bdmurray> I'd certainly like to, but I'm quite uncertain where to fit it in
[17:47] <liw> I follow programming.reddit.com and they fairly often have testing stuff there, so I'd be more than happy to mention anything there
[17:48] <heno> bdmurray: you mean about finding links or looking at other people's submissions?
[17:48] <bdmurray> heno: both. ;)
[17:48] <davmor2> I think an useful links that further the cause can only be a good thing :)
[17:48] <heno> right, the google tech talks are quite long, about an hour
[17:50] <heno> bdmurray: you could post an informative bug search from your weekly work that new community people might find useful
[17:51] <bdmurray> heno: okay, I'll see what I can come up with
[17:53] <liw> so: anyone is welcome to bring what they have, and anyone is welcome to make what use they can of what is brought -- are we in agreement? :)
[17:53] <heno> I guess this is something I'm used to fro my university days; lunch-time talks
[17:53] <heno> I think so
[17:53] <liw> any other topics?
[17:53] <heno> any other business?
[17:53] <heno> :)
[17:54] <heno> oh, the open week sessions went really well!
[17:54] <bdmurray> When will the next meeting be?
[17:54] <heno> bdmurray, pedro_, liw: well done!
[17:54] <liw> bdmurray, good point
[17:54] <heno> hm, we should schedule one during UDS
[17:54] <davmor2> yes,  Is there a way that we can log our hardware fully?  So that it gets added to bugs and reports save having to add it each time?
[17:54] <heno> with in-person and voip
[17:55] <liw> heno, would it be best to do that scheduling on site when we know what the uds schedule looks like?
[17:55] <heno> right, should we punt that decision to Monday?
[17:55] <liw> davmor2, the reportbug(-ng) program could perhaps be adapted to report bugs to launchpad
[17:56] <liw> heno, I'd say we should punt to Monday
[17:56] <heno> davmor2: I'd like to start using hwtest for this
[17:56] <davmor2> any links for hwtest?
[17:56] <heno> it produces an XML file that we can store different places
[17:57] <heno> it should be an ubuntu app
[17:57]  * heno looks for it
[17:57] <heno> when did we remove that from the menus?
[17:58] <bdmurray> I thought it was run once thing
[17:58] <davmor2> okay cool.  I'm thinking that in testing senario's it may speed things up if every tester with intel cpu is having issues where as everyone with amd's are fine same for 32 and 64 bit etc.
[17:58] <bdmurray> That is why it isn't in the menu
[17:59] <bdmurray> However, I don't recall seeing it when doing Gutsy installs
[17:59] <heno> I think it was there in the old days, but removed for the reason you stated
[18:00] <heno> let's take that question to the mailing list ...
[18:00] <liw> anything else for this meeting?
[18:00] <heno> bdmurray: should that be announced somewhere, should we just start using it?
[18:01] <davmor2> heno are you on about ubuntu device database?
[18:01] <bdmurray> heno: that what?
[18:01] <heno> davmor2: yes
[18:01] <heno> bdmurray: ubuntu-qa mailing list
[18:01] <davmor2> it's hidden in system tools
[18:01] <heno> (sorry, unclear)
[18:02] <davmor2> ubuntu-qa has a mailing list ?
[18:02] <bdmurray> davmor2: yeah, I haven't looked at it in a bit and no is subscribed but we thought we would start using it for this
[18:03] <bdmurray> so I need to double check the config then we can start using it
[18:03] <heno> bdmurray: can you post some info to the bugsquad list and place a link in the wiki, etc. when it's ready?
[18:04] <heno> or we can just subscribe and go?
[18:04] <stgraber> sorry, was afk for quite a long time :)
[18:05] <bdmurray> why don't we just start using it and see what happens
[18:05] <heno> davmor2: let's play with that app a bit and brainstorm on the new list
[18:06] <heno> ok cool
[18:06] <davmor2> where's the sign up point?
[18:06] <heno> anything else?
[18:06] <liw> how does one subscribe?
[18:06] <bdmurray> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-qa
[18:07] <davmor2> request sent :)
[18:08] <pedro_> subscribed :-)
[18:08] <heno> ok, I think we're done
[18:08] <liw> subscribed
[18:08] <liw> #endmeeting
[18:08] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:08.
[18:09] <liw> heno, I'll write a summary in a bit, where should I send it?
[18:09] <heno> liw: thanks, can you email it to me?
[18:10] <liw> will do
[18:10] <heno> should be just the bot output mostly
[18:10] <liw> yup
[21:01] <RichEd> hello edubunteros ... and good evening :)
[21:01] <RichEd> ogra will kick off with technical
[21:01] <RichEd> then we'll move into UDS Hardy Heron Discussions
[21:02]  * RichEd hands the mic to ogra
[21:02] <ogra> well, not much to say, i'm up t my ellbows in the guts of the classmatePC
[21:02] <ogra> *up to
[21:02] <stgraber> good evening
[21:02] <ogra> and i just realized i missed a talk i had to hold yeterday
[21:03] <ogra> but apparently someone held it (there is praise on planet)
[21:03] <LaserJock> ogra: hehe, I covered for you
[21:03] <RichEd> oops ... juliux's ubucon ?
[21:03] <juliux> RichEd, it was a sucess;)
[21:03] <RichEd> goed
[21:03] <ogra> LaserJock, WOW, i owe you a truckload of beer
[21:03] <LaserJock> RichEd: Open Week
[21:03] <juliux> but no ogra ;)
[21:03] <sbalneav> Meeting?
[21:03] <juliux> RichEd, next ubucon in german in 2008 weekend after the .10 release;)
[21:04] <LaserJock> I just gave a brief overview of Edubuntu
[21:04] <ogra> i totally missed it (worked on the classmate image from 8:00 in the morning till 23:00)
[21:04] <LaserJock> and fielded as many questions as I could
[21:04] <LaserJock> there was quite a lot of interest
[21:04] <ogra> yeah, you had good press :)
[21:04] <juliux> RichEd, more then 300 visitors on two days
[21:05] <RichEd> nice :)
[21:05] <ogra> i'm really feeling a bit overworked atm .. i need a break after UDS, sorry if i miss stuff
[21:05] <LaserJock> there's clearly interest in Edubuntu, we just need to capitalize and market it
[21:05] <ogra> yeah
[21:05]  * juliux votes for holiday for ogasawara 
[21:05]  * juliux votes for holiday for ogra 
[21:06] <ogra> well, beyond that here is a little list of proposals for specs i want to put up
[21:06] <ogra> LTSP:
[21:06] <ogra> - virtual-haldevices (revisited from seville, i have some demo code already)
[21:06] <ogra> - loacalapps (majority of work is already done by scott)
[21:06] <ogra> - GUI frontends for ltsp-tools (should probably be a sub spec of a general edubuntu server maintenance tools spec)
[21:06] <ogra> Classmate:
[21:06] <ogra> - UME-edu derivative
[21:06] <ogra> - inclusion of the defined missing bits (TPM etc)
[21:06] <ogra> Edubuntu
[21:06] <ogra> - network session management (italc and the like)
[21:06] <ogra> - edubuntu-content-server (moodle/wiki flavor integration)
[21:06] <ogra> - edubuntu CD discussion (how do we proceed with teh edubuntu CDs)
[21:06] <ogra> - meta system enhancements (new meta packages or install tasks):
[21:06] <ogra>     - edubuntu-content-server (see above)
[21:06] <ogra>     - edubuntu-auth-server (based on teh network auth server work of teh server team
[21:07] <ogra>     - edubuntu-file-server
[21:07] <ogra>     ....
[21:07] <ogra> is sbalneav around btw ?
[21:07] <ogra> ah, yes
[21:07] <ogra> (missed that)
[21:07] <ogra> RichEd already created a spec for the CD discussion
[21:07] <ogra> you might want to subscribe to it
[21:07] <ogra> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/edubuntu-addon
[21:07] <RichEd> great ... i think colin added me ... will check
[21:08] <ogra> since it might have huge impact o the future of edubuntu
[21:08] <LaserJock> yes, for sure
[21:09] <ogra> well, my main cocern with the addon CD is that we force a two CD install upon the user ...
[21:09] <sbalneav> Yes I am!
[21:10] <ogra> and we wont gain anything in testing since the install tests for each milestone CD still has to happen
[21:10] <ogra> so instead of doing two CD tests (live and server) its then ubuntu and edu-addon so i think that will be on par time wise ...
[21:12] <ogra> but well, thats to be discussed during the BOFs :)
[21:12] <ogra> any comments on the above lists ...
[21:12] <ogra> additions ...
[21:12] <ogra> critics ...
[21:12] <LaserJock> yeah, there's a lot of things that can be done
[21:12] <sbalneav> One quick one, but I think we can just roll it into maybe the virtual hal
[21:13] <sbalneav> C versions of cdpinger and jetpipe, started from udev if devices is available.
[21:13] <LaserJock> hmm, do we need to do anything more edu focused?
[21:13] <stgraber> ogra: no spec about TCM/Italc/Any other classroom management tool ?
[21:13] <LaserJock> most of your list is server related
[21:13] <LaserJock> - network session management (italc and the like)
[21:13] <LaserJock> stgraber: ^^
[21:13]  * stgraber is blind :)
[21:13] <ogra> stgraber, you come, right ?
[21:14] <sbalneav> LaserJock: Did we want to resurrect the menus thing?
[21:14] <stgraber> ogra: yep
[21:14] <LaserJock> sbalneav: I will be working on it yes
[21:14] <ogra> YAY
[21:14] <sbalneav> Any other edu apps we want to get in there?
[21:14] <LaserJock> I don't think we need to spec out the menus again
[21:14] <LaserJock> just need implementation
[21:14] <sbalneav> I'll help with that.
[21:14] <LaserJock> well, we should have an application review
[21:15] <sbalneav> Do we want a seabass spec? :)
[21:15] <LaserJock> lol
[21:15] <sbalneav> I'm game if you are.
[21:15] <LaserJock> no, that's ok
[21:15] <ogra> we should find ressources to have a look at the getdeb UI ... (without the package install option, i like the app revie pages)
[21:15] <LaserJock> but there are certainly apps I think we should be including
[21:16] <LaserJock> ogra: good idea
[21:16] <ogra> it looks like it assembles some of the stuff we dfined in seville
[21:16] <ogra> for an online app DB
[21:16] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:17] <ogra> seems to be a good time since there are some collaboration efforts lately
[21:17] <LaserJock> overall it seems to me like we're heading into two directions
[21:17] <LaserJock> we have a server focus
[21:18] <LaserJock> and an educational app focus
[21:18] <ogra> yeah
[21:18] <sbalneav> ogra: what flight are you coming in on?  I can't get international calling turned on in my phone fast enough, so I'll give you my cell: (204) 795-8321.  When you touch down, start pinging me.  If you tell me your flight, I'll try to make it over to the terminal you're at.
[21:18] <RichEd> I've just published a wiki page for this spec discussion:
[21:18] <RichEd> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Education/UDS-Boston/Overview
[21:18] <ogra> i think its LH420
[21:18] <RichEd> * there's the list ogra put up above ...
[21:19] <RichEd> * the edubuntu roadmap which has some outstanding spec from Gutsy
[21:19] <RichEd> * an and ideas page from David Trask
[21:19] <RichEd> * and an
[21:19] <sbalneav> Get my cell #?
[21:19] <RichEd> we need to extract the good feature proposals from the roadmap and david
[21:20] <RichEd> and add any new ones raised here
[21:20] <RichEd> ...
[21:20] <RichEd> ogra / LaserJock: who wants to lead us through the roadmap at lightnening speed to agree what should be brought in ?
[21:21] <LaserJock> ogra probably knows better what's been implemented
[21:22] <ogra> hmm
[21:22] <LaserJock> I would like to insert here, that I'd personaly like to see a specific "These are the products we are going to produce and their purposes" list
[21:23]  * ogra fixes formatting
[21:23] <LaserJock> I imagine that the results of the CD discussion will affect the list
[21:23] <ogra> for sure
[21:23] <LaserJock> but I think we need to nail down what we want to deliver before we list features
[21:24] <ogra> well, the question is what fits on such a CD if i have to add half a system for ltsp
[21:24] <RichEd> LaserJock: two main thrusts requested by upper management ...
[21:24] <ogra> currently addon doesnt carry *any* base packages
[21:24] <RichEd> 1. tools to assist large scale deployment and management
[21:24] <RichEd> 2. tools for actual teaching in the classroom
[21:24] <RichEd> ---
[21:24] <ogra> i fear we would have to drop the excessive list of langpacks
[21:25] <LaserJock> RichEd: ok, those sound good
[21:25] <LaserJock> is there a constraint on delivery?
[21:25] <LaserJock> like how many CDs
[21:26] <ogra> every CD costs money
[21:26] <sbalneav> Isn't the list of langpacks exacerbated by the need to include Mozilla langpacks as well?   Should we raise the xulrunner/netkit issue?
[21:26] <RichEd> There is a bit of resistance to provide more than one education / edubuntu CD
[21:26] <LaserJock> the problem I'm seeing is that we're becoming a server OS + educational OS + teaching OS
[21:26] <ogra> sbalneav, hardy will have xulrunner in main ;)
[21:26] <ogra> and epiphany built against it
[21:26] <RichEd> So that is another reason to try to get edubuntu to be an add on that installs straight after and on top of Ubuntu CD1
[21:27] <LaserJock> RichEd: except I don't think we have enough space
[21:27] <RichEd> i.e. Ubuntu swallows the cost of our first CD
[21:27] <ogra> well, it builds a psychological hurdle we need to overcome via marketing
[21:28] <ogra> so we'll need to do way more promotional work then imho
[21:28] <LaserJock> I seriously don't think we can provide LTSP + good selection of educational apps for various ages + content and teaching tools for teachers all on 1 CD
[21:28] <ogra> right
[21:28] <LaserJock> so maybe we need to have targeted CDs
[21:28] <LaserJock> targeted Addon CDs
[21:29] <LaserJock> if we were to drop the Desktop CD and the 1st CD (because that's Ubuntu)
[21:29] <sbalneav> Correct me if I'm wrong, but the LTSP bit doesn't take up hardly any room, does it?  So I think the issue really is splitting apps vs content.
[21:29] <LaserJock> and had a Classroom Server Addon, Educational Applications Addon, and Teaching Tools Addon or something
[21:30] <LaserJock> sbalneav: LTSP itself may not, but adding in all kinds of server bits that make it cool might
[21:30] <ogra> sbalneav, it will take up as much as debootstrap needs and the ltsp-client deps
[21:30] <sbalneav> Ah, ok
[21:30] <ogra> thats surely 1-200M
[21:30] <LaserJock> I think there are a lot of people who wouldn't care about LTSP
[21:30] <LaserJock> the just want educational apps
[21:30] <ogra> right
[21:30] <LaserJock> or maybe they want moodle and wikipedia or something
[21:31] <sbalneav> Well, maybe the ltsp bits should get moved off to a separate cd, then.
[21:31] <ogra> we'll likely loose a lot of freshly switched K12LTSP users
[21:31] <sbalneav> along with server type stuff.
[21:32] <ogra> and indeed edubuntu is currently mostly hyped for its ltsp integration ...
[21:32] <LaserJock> If we had a really rocking Server CD I think the LTSP people would really love it
[21:32] <ogra> at least i the most reviews i saw in the past
[21:32] <ogra> the prob here is that you need a desktop for ltsp
[21:32] <LaserJock> if you start with Ubuntu though it's not going to be that bad
[21:33] <ogra> so just addig it to the server CD (for which we give commercial support) is a bit tricky
[21:33] <LaserJock> slip in the Server CD and get Edubuntu branding and a great LTSP server
[21:33] <sbalneav> BTW, there are 6 K12ltsp cdroms
[21:33] <ogra> i know
[21:33] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:33] <ogra> be sure i dont want to go there
[21:33] <LaserJock> well, yes and no
[21:34] <ogra> i'm maintainng three atm and its a fulltime job
[21:34] <ogra> i wouldnt want to imagine 6 :)
[21:34] <LaserJock> 6 CDs gives you an enormous potential for educational content
[21:34] <sbalneav> I hate to raise the dvd issue....
[21:34] <ogra> sure
[21:34] <sbalneav> maybe it's time?
[21:34] <LaserJock> we *should* have openclipart
[21:34] <ogra> sbalneav, if you pay me a 10M line :P
[21:35] <ogra> then i'll be with you :)
[21:35] <sbalneav> Me?!?  Dude, just as soon as *I* start getting paid, I'll buy you fibre :) :)
[21:35] <ogra> heh
[21:36] <LaserJock> yeah
[21:36] <ogra> well, in any case DVD production is quite a lot more time consuming due to the bandwith requirements ...
[21:36] <ogra> i think its probably time to go for a DVD eve thopugh that will loose us a lotusers
[21:36] <LaserJock> well, I personally like the idea of several (say 2 or 3) targetted CDs
[21:37] <LaserJock> plus a demo LiveCD
[21:37] <LaserJock> but well, I don't have to maintain CDs ;-)
[21:38] <ogra> well, in such a case i'd prefer to keep the current model
[21:38] <ogra> the current addon still has a lot of potential we dont use
[21:38] <stgraber> they would also get few testing, Add-on CDs was only tested by 3 people I wouldn't even imagine if we had 3 of those :)
[21:38] <LaserJock> well, my point was targetting
[21:38] <ogra> we ship just blindly all langpacks for example
[21:39] <ogra> LaserJock, my point is getting it all on one CD
[21:39] <sbalneav> Is it any harder (other than size) to maintain 1 dvd image, as opposed to 3 cd images?
[21:39] <ogra> sbalneav, the dowload times are horrible
[21:39] <sbalneav> Seems to me the dvd would be less work.
[21:39] <ogra> note that i cant use torrents during development
[21:39] <sbalneav> Well that, but downloading 3 cd's is almost as bad as 1 dvd
[21:39] <ogra> no
[21:39] <sbalneav> 3/4's as bad
[21:39] <ogra> since i can start work after the first iso is there
[21:40] <sbalneav> ah
[21:40] <sbalneav> Well, how often do you have to download?
[21:40] <sbalneav> Once every couple of days?  Or once a day?
[21:41] <ogra> once every two weeks at least
[21:41] <LaserJock> I'd say have Canonical get you a faster line so you can do your work ;-)
[21:41] <stgraber> you can also use rsync and sync only the delta (Don't know how efficient that's though)
[21:41] <ogra> usually i spend every third development week only with isos
[21:41] <LaserJock> ok, but here's a question
[21:41] <LaserJock> would our testing be easier with a DVD
[21:41] <ogra> stgraber, its a lot more on the DVD (it contains more than just the CDs)
[21:41] <LaserJock> ?
[21:42] <ogra> well, the DVD has six install variants ...
[21:42] <sbalneav> I guess it comes down to (from canonical's point of view) what's more cost efficient.  Buying you a faster line, but you can do more work because you don't have multiple images to maintain, or slower line, but lose employee productivity because of uneccessary work.
[21:42] <LaserJock> well, let's maybe cut that down
[21:42] <ogra> the CDs have three each and i have an addon CD
[21:42] <sbalneav> If it were *ME*, you'd have the 10 meg line by now :)
[21:42] <ogra> LaserJock, we'd likely rather raise it
[21:42] <ogra> for the different flavours
[21:43] <LaserJock> but it would all be on one media at least
[21:43] <ogra> sbalneav, i just bought a 2M SDSL line since i need the upstream speed ...
[21:43] <ogra> but that oe cant get upgraded higher :/
[21:43] <LaserJock> look, there's no clear winning solution here, IMO
[21:43] <ogra> LaserJock, right
[21:44] <ogra> with neither of the scenarios you mean ?
[21:44] <ogra> i agree ...
[21:44] <LaserJock> but I think we have to recognize that we aren't going to be an Educational distro for long if we don't deliver content
[21:44] <LaserJock> if we are just Ubuntu LTSP + plus a couple token edu apps
[21:44] <sbalneav> LaserJock++
[21:44] <LaserJock> I think we might get left in the dust
[21:44] <ogra> i dont see us having to deliver content though
[21:45] <LaserJock> not content in the sense of ebooks
[21:45] <ogra> but i see us including tools to easily include content
[21:45] <ogra> like http://www.softlab.ntua.gr/~ttsiod/buildWikipediaOffline.html
[21:45] <LaserJock> altherough somebody did suggest that
[21:45] <ogra> (something i'd loved to have in gutsy but i had no time for it)
[21:45] <LaserJock> but stuff like openclipart
[21:46] <LaserJock> moodle, wikipedia
[21:46] <ogra> right
[21:46] <ogra> moodle is not content
[21:46] <LaserJock> and lots of educational apps
[21:46] <LaserJock> no, but it's content focused
[21:46] <ogra> indeed
[21:46] <LaserJock> and I meant content in the sense that we need more edu "stuff"
[21:46] <ogra> but hw far would that go ?
[21:46] <ogra> i mean you will have localized content etc
[21:46] <RichEd> sabdfl was suggesting we work with the other friendly distros to see what apps they have selected to install on top of edubuntu / ubuntu
[21:47] <ogra> you would end up with 10 DVDs if you wuld start to ship anything we can find
[21:47] <RichEd> like guadalinex, extramedura, MAX
[21:47] <LaserJock> ogra: not everything, but more than 1CD
[21:47] <RichEd> although their selections may not be available in english
[21:48] <RichEd> b.t.w. he says Max employ 8-10 teachers as fuill time staff to test & play with apps and make recommendations
[21:48] <LaserJock> *unless* we really want to push Universe and "install over network what you want"
[21:48] <RichEd> * luxury !
[21:48] <ogra> LaserJock, i'd go for that in case of content, yes
[21:49] <LaserJock> I'm not a K12 teacher or ICT expert or anything
[21:49] <ogra> LaserJock, having tools for getting the content things like aptoncd for edu content for example would make more sense imho
[21:49] <LaserJock> but I've definately seen where people want education apps
[21:49] <ogra> imagine somethig like g-a-i that offers differet teaching content and builds a CD if needed
[21:50] <ogra> edubuntu job is imho to provide the platform
[21:50] <ogra> and to make the content easily accessible
[21:50] <LaserJock> yes, that's why I'm trying to say, we first of all need to figure out what we are trying to provide
[21:50] <ogra> but not t package up wikipwdia
[21:50] <RichEd> ogra: would it be possible for people to select a list of applications, and for an automated process to "assemble .iso for download" ?
[21:51] <LaserJock> then we can decide what features we need to deliver that product
[21:51] <ogra> LaserJock, i just outlined it :) thats my personal view of edubuntu
[21:51] <ogra> RichEd, would require some dev time but is surely possible to write
[21:52] <LaserJock> AptonCD basically does that, right?
[21:52] <ogra> not online :)
[21:52] <LaserJock> oh, not viea web page no
[21:52] <LaserJock> *via
[21:52] <ogra> LaserJock, RichEd wants online synaptic with iso builder ;)
[21:53] <LaserJock> *cough*
[21:53] <LaserJock> anyway
[21:53] <ogra> RichEd, in fact synaptic has such a function in its file menu
[21:53] <stgraber> but you won't be able to suppot any of those ISOs as it'd be impossible to test every possibilities (so high risk of people complaining of non-working images)
[21:53] <RichEd> so that the users can get 1 base CD from us, and then only download what they need for CD2
[21:53] <LaserJock> I think we have lot more to do to get to the "make the content easily accessible" bit
[21:53] <LaserJock> and I'm not so sure about the platform thing
[21:54] <RichEd> if it is a CD which installs apps from g-a-i then isn't it like a simple archive ?
[21:54] <LaserJock> stgraber: as long as it's just a "repo on a CD" it shouldn't be bad
[21:54]  * RichEd is just throwing out ideas ... some may very well be a bit off whack
[21:54] <ogra> RichEd, i think g-a-i integration is not that easy (it needs to be sigend with the archive key etc)
[21:55] <ogra> but synaptics has a mode for that that could be tweaked and extended i think
[21:55] <LaserJock> ogra: what is Edubuntu supposed to be a platform for?
[21:55] <ogra> LaserJock, teaching ?
[21:55] <LaserJock> so then it needs a lot of teaching tools and educational software
[21:56] <ogra> right
[21:56] <LaserJock> that's what I was meaning by "content"
[21:56] <ogra> oh
[21:56] <LaserJock> and I think we have a long ways to go before we've got enough of that
[21:56] <ogra> i tught you meant content with content :)
[21:56] <RichEd> LaserJock: rather say "teaching / learning tools" ?
[21:56] <RichEd> rather than content or o/s or server tools
[21:56] <LaserJock> there's things like ebook library management
[21:56] <ogra> LaserJock, well, the ubuntu way of things was always to find a sensible default ...
[21:57] <ogra> that takes its time :)
[21:57] <LaserJock> right
[21:57] <LaserJock> what I'm saying is that we need to have a media or set of products that can deliver that
[21:57] <LaserJock> I don't see it happening with only 1 CD
[21:57] <ogra> no, thats why we'Re at two already
[21:57] <LaserJock> so a DVD would give you enough space
[21:58] <LaserJock> but has lots of associated costs
[21:58] <ogra> but the second CD still has a lot of potential we can use
[21:58] <LaserJock> I think an alternative would be to have targetted CDs
[21:58] <ogra> we're far from falling under any constrints here
[21:58] <LaserJock> perhaps even by age range
[21:58] <LaserJock> yes, but we've only added around 4 apps since Edgy
[21:59] <ogra> yeah and we ship around 200MB of langpacks
[21:59] <LaserJock> if we really got serious about adding tools it's gonna get filled up pretty quickly
[21:59] <ogra> which is not really needed
[21:59] <LaserJock> openclipart is ~100MB
[21:59] <ogra> fine, lets add it
[21:59] <LaserJock> but is a very important thing to educators
[22:00] <LaserJock> for sure I think we'd be fine for Hardy with the current Addon CD
[22:00] <ogra> right
[22:00] <ogra> probably even for hardy+1
[22:00] <LaserJock> quite possibly
[22:00] <ogra> i'm good at space shuffling after two years :)
[22:01] <LaserJock> hehe, yes you are
[22:01] <ogra> i think ubuntu will do the move at some point
[22:01] <ogra> and i think that might be hardy+1
[22:01] <ogra> (dont trust my predictions though) :)
[22:01] <LaserJock> I think 2 CDs is still a bit confusing for people
[22:02] <ogra> yeah
[22:02] <LaserJock> although I think that can be handled well via marketing/docs
[22:02] <ogra> well, anyway, we shouldnt do the CD discussion here and now ...
[22:02] <LaserJock> yeah
[22:02] <ogra> (even though we just did :P)
[22:03] <stgraber> :)
[22:03] <LaserJock> I just like to talk about it since I won't be in Boston
[22:03] <ogra> right
[22:03] <ogra> subscribe to the spec :)
[22:04] <LaserJock> I did
[22:04] <LaserJock> and if I'm available I'll try to listent in
[22:04] <ogra> so ... where do we go now ? :)
[22:05] <ogra> any vote on specs ?
[22:05] <ogra> what do we want to take from gutsy ?
[22:06] <ogra> Palm device support ... is that implemented sbalneav ?
[22:06] <sbalneav> no
[22:06] <ogra> do we want to carry it over ?
[22:06] <sbalneav> Ummm.
[22:06] <ogra> your decision :) you were after it
[22:07] <sbalneav> If I get time to implement it without it being an official spec, can it still go in?
[22:07] <ogra> ltsp-update-manager-integration ... is something i definately want
[22:07] <sbalneav> My big hitter for hardy's localapps.
[22:07] <ogra> sbalneav, sure, who is upstream for LTSP ?
[22:07] <ogra> :P
[22:07] <sbalneav> Gawd, who knows anymore :)
[22:07] <ogra> all your decision :)
[22:08] <ogra> well ...
[22:08] <sbalneav> ok, leave it off for now
[22:08] <ogra> edubuntu-menus-completion ...
[22:08] <ogra> something we really should attack now ... and LaserJock already built a good information base
[22:09] <LaserJock> I'll be working on that
[22:09] <RichEd> chriskenyon is also wanting that
[22:09] <LaserJock> I don't think it needs a BOF or anything
[22:09] <LaserJock> well, there's gonna have to be some though into actually
[22:10] <LaserJock> I think I'm going to have to bug Gnome and/or XDG
[22:10] <LaserJock> becase our current implentation will no longer work
[22:10] <ogra> edubuntu-user-management ... i'd love to tackle that but with very low priority (thats LDAP integration for users ad groups manager)
[22:10] <ogra> LaserJock, well, then we need to fix xdg ourselves without breaking it
[22:10] <ogra> :)
[22:11] <ogra> dran easy, isnt it ?
[22:11]  * ogra hides
[22:12] <ogra> well, there is only edubuntu-application-review left on that list .. i think thats an ongoing thing not bund to a release
[22:12] <ogra> (and needs manpower we dont have for web development)
[22:12] <ogra> but having a look at the getdeb ui would probably make sense at least to add a note about it :)
[22:13] <ogra> in case you dont know it: http://www.getdeb.net/
[22:13] <sbalneav> I gotta go.
[22:13] <sbalneav> Wife's coming to pick me up.
[22:13] <ogra> ciao sbalneav, thanks for attending
[22:13] <sbalneav> See you all online tomorrow.
[22:14] <LaserJock> ogra: it should work via apt-url
[22:15] <LaserJock> the "download" part anyway
[22:15] <ogra> well, i dont want the installer parts :)
[22:15] <ogra> i want the app review tool
[22:15] <ogra> for a datatbase
[22:15] <ogra> as we defined it in the spec ... but with focus on the wine page
[22:16] <ogra> getdeb looks better suited and more in the direction we need
[22:16] <ogra> but it surely needs changes for our specific purpose
[22:17] <LaserJock> ldm is done, righ?
[22:17] <ogra> anyway so far we have: ltsp-update-manager-integration, edubuntu-menus-completion, edubuntu-user-management (with extra low prio, only if dev time is left)
[22:17] <ogra> ldm is done
[22:17]  * ogra moves on to dtrasks page
[22:18] <ogra> thats mostly a list of bugfix requests ... grmbl
[22:18] <ogra> "Out of the box support for Screen Readers and Text to Speech"
[22:18] <ogra> orca is simply broken in ltsp, thats a bug and needs fixage ... no spec
[22:18] <ogra> Default Automatic Removal of Stale NBD Swap files
[22:18] <ogra> is something we do with gutsy by default iirc
[22:19] <ogra> "Stale processes left over after logout"
[22:19] <ogra> app bugs that need fixage ...
[22:19] <ogra> "Firefox pixmap caching issue"
[22:19] <ogra> upstream issue we cant do much here
[22:19] <ogra> (sigh)
[22:20] <ogra> "TeacherTool inclusion or should it be separate?"
[22:20] <ogra> requires someone to package teachertool
[22:20] <ogra> "Thin-client manager Improvements"
[22:20] <ogra> that would make a nice spec and i know stgraber has interest in it
[22:21] <stgraber> indeed
[22:21] <ogra> "Edubuntu needs to be focused on as a high load server"
[22:21]  * RichEd cheers for stgraber 
[22:21] <ogra> i agree that we should review if we ship the server kernel on the server CD ... *if* there is a server CD after the discussion :)
[22:22] <ogra> "Authentication Stuff and User Management Stuff"
[22:22] <ogra> server team ...
[22:22] <ogra> we'll get a nice auth server setup in hardy from the server team we can just include
[22:22] <ogra> nothing for us to spe
[22:22] <ogra> c
[22:23] <ogra> "Profile management (Sabayon) needs to be standard and easy"
[22:23] <ogra> fully agreed, covered by one of my spec suggestions
[22:23] <ogra> "Inclusion of Openoffice extensions system-wide"
[22:23] <ogra> not sure we can do that at all with our package design
[22:24] <ogra> that needs discussion with the openoffice maintainer first if its even technically possible to provide them packaged
[22:24] <ogra> i know we have a policy to not ship firefox extensions packaged
[22:24] <ogra> might be that applies there as well
[22:24] <ogra> "Marketing and Advocacy"
[22:25] <ogra> RichEd, ?
[22:25] <LaserJock> ogra: there are lots of firefox extentions in the repos
[22:25] <RichEd> ogra: I'll work through the "discussion" ones ... those will not need a formal LP spec ? or do you think we should go that route
[22:25] <ogra> LaserJock, none in main
[22:26] <ogra> RichEd, we will likely have "workshop" and "discussion" BOFs like in seville again
[22:26] <RichEd> we need a specific community discussion ... and can slot most of those in ... I'll work that into my overview page
[22:27] <ogra> err ..
[22:27] <ogra> i'm on dtrasks page atm
[22:27] <RichEd> yep ...
[22:27] <ogra> and was asking about the "Marketing and Advocacy" topic
[22:27] <RichEd> marketing and advocacy ... that is under way by me for my official job task
[22:28] <ogra> ah, fine ... not a spec then :)
[22:28] <ogra> "Support"
[22:28] <RichEd> very high priority ... so i can share that discussion with the group at UDS ... won't take long
[22:28] <ogra> not sure what to do about that one
[22:28] <RichEd> that's what my earlier comment ^ referred to
[22:28] <ogra> the beta site surely lacks activity
[22:28] <ogra> bu we have nobody to work on it
[22:29] <RichEd> under community ... how to muster contributors / advisors
[22:29]  * ogra doesnt think thats a spec=)
[22:29] <LaserJock> well, pips1, highvoltage and I have been working on a plan for edubuntu.org
[22:29] <ogra> LaserJock, want to spec it ?
[22:29] <RichEd> and related is a discussion dtrask and I had this week via email ... for a school project
[22:30] <RichEd> the idea is for david to set assignments for class work and marks etc. for adding pages to the edubuntu site ...
[22:30] <LaserJock> ogra: it might not be a bad idea, is pips1 going to Boston?
[22:30] <ogra> i dont think so
[22:30] <LaserJock> so none of us will actually be there :/
[22:30] <RichEd> LaserJock: he'll be invited to UDS+1 again I think
[22:30] <LaserJock> we can spec it anyway
[22:30] <ogra> right ...
[22:30] <LaserJock> maybe just not under the official Boston schedule
[22:30] <ogra> nothing to put on the list then ?
[22:31] <ogra> ok
[22:31] <RichEd> See project idea above ^ to get web-site content moving and contributions coming in ...
[22:31] <LaserJock> highvoltage got the drupal theme from Fridge imported
[22:31] <LaserJock> and pips1 updated the drupal install
[22:32] <LaserJock> so we gotta get the them Edubuntu-ized
[22:32] <RichEd> We'll discuss this on Monday at UDS, and when we visit Davids kids and school ... he'll introduce us to the kids as the guys who put together their edubuntu software
[22:32] <LaserJock> we're working on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Edubuntu/Website
[22:32] <RichEd> He reckons they would be hyped to have "their work" published, with a small acknowledgement to the school
[22:32] <ogra> LaserJock, doesnt sond like it needs a spec ...
[22:32] <LaserJock> perhaps not
[22:32] <LaserJock> we'll see
[22:33] <LaserJock> we need details ;-)
[22:33] <ogra> "Other things that defy categorization"
[22:33] <RichEd> He suggested (seeing as his kids are younger) a kids level section on the edubuntu site
[22:33] <ogra> Inclusion of NSCD. ... if the server team includes it in the auth server well, get it ... else not
[22:33] <ogra> no spec
[22:34] <ogra> the rest looks like better suited for bug reports on that sitwe
[22:34] <ogra> so ... to summarize
[22:35] <ogra> "Thin-client manager Improvements" , "Edubuntu needs to be focused on as a high load server" (depending on CD decision), "Profile management (Sabayon) needs to be standard and easy" (covered by my specs)
[22:35] <ogra> anything i missed ?
[22:36]  * RichEd scrolls back
[22:36] <ogra> rater look at dtarsks wikipage :) if you miss anything in my list
[22:37] <ogra> *dtrask
[22:37] <RichEd> --- just this one ---
 "TeacherTool inclusion or should it be separate?"
 requires someone to package teachertool
[22:37] <RichEd> but from this approach ...
[22:37] <ogra> yeah its an old K12LTSP app
[22:38] <ogra> it was ported during feisty abut you need to do a lot of manual work
[22:38] <RichEd> oops I was mixing up SchoolTool
[22:38] <ogra> would be a good project for someone who wants to become a MOTU
[22:38] <ogra> ah
[22:38] <ogra> well, schooltool waits for zope3 to be stable
[22:38] <ogra> which might happen in hardy
[22:39] <RichEd> ogra: well there was shripani in the channel this past week who has some programming skill
[22:39] <RichEd> and was keen to assist ... could he be "trained up" or mentored do you think ?
[22:39] <ogra> ah, nice
[22:39] <ogra> yeah
[22:39] <ogra> i was not very active on IRC this week
[22:39] <ogra> so i missed him
[22:39] <RichEd> well add it to the spec list if the tool is useful
[22:40] <RichEd> and i'll see if i can catch him tomorrow
[22:40] <ogra> nah
[22:40] <ogra> its not a spec
[22:40] <RichEd> okay ... so how would we get it started ... just a channel chat or email ?
[22:40] <ogra> i mean it resembles only what italc or TCM do but uses nonstandard stuff in the backend we wont have in main
[22:41] <ogra> writing a spec for something to be packagesd for universe doesnt really seem appropriate
[22:41] <ogra> in the channel is best
[22:41] <ogra> if i meet him i'll talk to him
[22:42] <ogra> so my spec proposals now ... what do we pick or drop
[22:42] <ogra> any suggestions ?
[22:43] <ogra> none ?
[22:43] <RichEd> ogra: are those allready in lp ?
[22:43] <ogra> hey, i dont want to implemnt them all :)
[22:43] <ogra> nope
[22:44] <RichEd> well what about making it a mail list question ? to get input and stimulate some traffic ?
[22:44] <ogra> RichEd, hmm
[22:44] <RichEd> send out the list, and ask people to send their top 3 ?
[22:44] <ogra> i fly friday early morning
[22:44] <ogra> and wont have much time to read mails beyond teh bare minimun during UDS
[22:45] <ogra> not sure you and i can participate much in such  a discussion
[22:45] <stgraber> I can probably give a hand with the iTalc/TCM one (having an iTalc install working) but I'll probably be busy with Ubuntu QA and the QA Website during hardy development
[22:45] <RichEd> i'm happy to process the mail thread ... give people until end of friday to respond ?
[22:46] <ogra> and tell them not to edit the wiki :)
[22:46] <RichEd> just a suggestion that a simple "voting stats" may help
[22:46] <RichEd> no long discussion ... just "My top 3"
[22:46] <ogra> else we end up with a chaos like on dtrasks site where everyone just puts his bugs up
[22:46] <ogra> right, something like that
[22:46] <RichEd> we can still make our own decisions in the end, but have (some) external input
[22:47] <LaserJock> ogra: I thought your list was good
[22:47] <ogra> yeah, but i'd like to keep https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Education/UDS-Boston/Overview in a state that we can use it as a base for work during UDS :)
[22:47] <ogra> its well structured atm
[22:47] <RichEd> LaserJock: ogra wants to narrow it down ... to how many ogra .. what is a reasonable number ?
[22:47] <ogra> no idea
[22:48] <ogra> virtual-hal devices are surely not urget
[22:48] <RichEd> how many do we have on the list ?
[22:48] <ogra> just something to show off with in the feature list
[22:48] <LaserJock> can we just have a list of possibilites with high/medium/low priorities?
[22:48] <ogra> we had three from dtrask and three from gutsy iirc
[22:49] <RichEd> well ogra .. how about this ... if you can move the ones on the list into the section -- specs proposed --
[22:50] <RichEd> then I'll send the mail tomorrow ...
[22:50] <ogra> LaserJock, i added tags to my specs
[22:50] <RichEd> to -devel
[22:50] <ogra> (if the wiki ever saves)
[22:50] <RichEd> anyone here who wants to send their own priority tags to all of the specs is welcome to send that to me by mail
[22:51] <ogra> that leaves as high: session management, UME-edu derivative, edubuntu CD discussion, GUI frontends for ltsp-tools , edubuntu-mass-maintenance
[22:51] <LaserJock> yeah, -devel is actually useful if you use it ;-)
[22:51] <RichEd> seeing as your input is valued as committed community members :) like LaserJock and stgraber
[22:52] <ogra> that makes 11
[22:52] <RichEd> so ... trim it down to say 8 with user input ...
[22:52] <RichEd> get those 8 into launchpad
[22:53] <RichEd> and aim to get 6 onto the agenda with a BOF etc ?
[22:53] <RichEd> are those numbers reasonable ?
[22:55] <RichEd> 5 mins to close of meeting ... ogra ^ yes/no ?
[22:55] <ogra> i'm updaing the wikpage with the lists we selected
[22:56] <RichEd> do we get all 11 into lanchpad or trim as suggested ?
[22:56] <RichEd> if we decide that we can close for the night
[22:57] <ogra> have a look
[22:57]  * RichEd checks
[22:57] <ogra> i added a proposed list with prio in brackets
[22:58] <ogra> and added prios to mine
[22:58] <ogra> i count 8 with high prio
[22:58] <RichEd> let me refresh ...
[22:59] <ogra> (note the sabayon one is covered in mass maintannce)
[22:59] <RichEd> okay ... let me have the page edit for 2 mins ...
[23:04] <RichEd> ogra: reload & check new section ... proposed - just a list in priority order
[23:05] <ogra> whats edubuntu ? at the bottom ?
[23:05] <RichEd> lost & found ... just wiped it :)
[23:06] <RichEd> then I think we are done ?
[23:06] <ogra> profile management and "network session management" cover the same imho
[23:06]  * RichEd raises the hammer to hit the gong ...
[23:06] <RichEd> while making the suggested edit
[23:06] <ogra> hit it ... i'll fix
[23:06] <ogra> ah, k
[23:07] <ogra> yeah, looks good
[23:07] <RichEd> i fixed ... combined them
[23:07] <RichEd> okay ... tamarra i'll send the mail to the devel list
[23:08] <stgraber> isn't thin-client manager improvements (med) similar to network session management (italc and the like) (hi)
[23:08] <RichEd> you get working on getting the specs into launchpad
[23:08] <ogra> well, you wanted to work on TCM :)
[23:08] <ogra> that justifies a separate spec
[23:08]  * RichEd waves the hammer threateningly at stgraber 
[23:08] <RichEd> italc may be a relationship with the developers
[23:08] <ogra> i wouldnt do anything to TCM but make sure there are no regressions
[23:09] <ogra> but i wouldnt imrove it for that specific spec
[23:09] <RichEd> thin-client-manager is our baby
[23:09] <ogra> right
[23:09] <ogra> TCM will be covered by both
[23:09] <RichEd> goingggg once
[23:09] <RichEd> goingggggggg twice
[23:09] <ogra> but one is fo its development and one is for its usage :)
[23:09]  * RichEd looks for hands ?
[23:10]  * ogra waits for gong 
[23:10] <ogra> man i'm tired
[23:10] <ogra> working since 8:00
[23:10] <RichEd> just this german fellow muttering to this swiss fellow
[23:10]  * RichEd hits the gong
[23:10] <ogra> yay
[23:10] <RichEd> ogra: did a 2 am last night
[23:10]  * ogra falls asleep immediately
[23:10] <ogra> zzzZZZZZ
[23:10] <ogra> :)
[23:10] <stgraber> yeah, will have to sleep well tonight, I doubt that I'll find time to sleep next one
[23:10]  * RichEd hears that famous snore
[23:10] <ogra> RichEd, i'm doing that since cyprus
[23:10] <stgraber> having flight at 6am and 2hours from the airport :)
[23:11] <ogra> and there is no relaxing before UDS
[23:11] <RichEd> g'night all
[23:11] <ogra> night
[23:11] <stgraber> night
[23:11] <RichEd> except at the FOSSCamp bar
[23:11] <ogra> stgraber, tomorrow already ?
[23:11] <ogra> right, the bar :)
[23:11]  * RichEd vainshes in a tear in the fabric of the ether
[23:11] <stgraber> ogra: nope, early Friday but will have to leave to the airport at 3am
[23:12] <ogra> luckily your tains go
[23:12] <ogra> *trains
[23:12] <stgraber> they don't
[23:12] <ogra> i'm not yet sure i'll get a proper train friday at 6 :)
[23:12] <stgraber> My father will bring me to the airport (yeah I'm lucky :))
[23:12] <ogra> swiss conductors are on strike as well ?
[23:12]  * ogra cant convince his GF :(
[23:12] <stgraber> nope but don't expect a train before 6am :)
[23:12] <ogra> ah, k :)
[23:13] <ogra> well, i fl out at 11 ... o have to be there around 9
[23:13] <stgraber> I don't have direct flight, so I'll be at 12 at Newark and 15 at Boston
[23:14] <ogra> i'm careful with connection flights ...
[23:15] <ogra> if direct is an opportunity i usually try to take that :)
[23:15] <stgraber> Had some luggage problems ?
[23:15] <ogra> only once yet
[23:15] <ogra> and luckily on return
[23:16] <ogra> anyway, i need sleep
[23:16] <ogra> night :)
[23:16] <stgraber> so do I
[23:16] <stgraber> night