[00:12] <_cecilia_> en 15 min voy para verlo
[00:38] <effie_jayx> _cecilia_,  que vas a ver?
[03:41] <swaperror> doei!
[04:49] <jose>  Xx
[05:25] <tehk> .join #emacs
[06:06] <alfermp_> How can i change resolution for tty's in gusty
[06:18] <tonyyarusso> you don't
[06:18] <tonyyarusso> apparently
[07:04] <AstralJava> tonyyarusso: Is this confirmed? I kinda suspected as much, but never went on to find out whether it was just that I didn't know how to, or for some other reason.
[07:04] <tonyyarusso> AstralJava: yes - After LP comes back up, look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/~tonyyarusso for the one with "consoles [1-6]" in the title.  there are 17 duplicates.
[07:07] <tonyyarusso> !logs
[07:07] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at Channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - See also !OpenWeek - See also !OpenWeek
[07:07] <tonyyarusso> !openweek
[07:07] <ubotu> openweek is Ubuntu is hosting a series of introductory sessions for people who want to join the Ubuntu community, which all takes place in a week. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek for schedules, logs, and instructions.
[07:08] <AstralJava> tonyyarusso: Thanks.
[14:27] <stefg> @schedule berlin
[14:27] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 30 Oct 17:00: Kernel Team | 31 Oct 13:00: Edubuntu Team | 07 Nov 21:00: Edubuntu Team | 08 Nov 16:00: Community Development Team
[14:31] <hydrogen> @wrong.
[15:57] <DrDabbles> @now
[15:57] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 25 2007, 14:57:07 - Next meeting: Kernel Team in 5 days
[16:09] <billycin1> hi folks
[16:09] <billycin1> sorry i am late
[16:09] <popey> hi
[16:09] <billycin1> needs to file a bug for gutsy
[16:09] <billycin1> network manager issues
[16:09] <billycin1> 3 of us in the office
[16:09] <Hobbsee> billycin1: /msg nickserv ghost billycina <yourfreenodep/w>
[16:09] <Hobbsee> then you can have your nick back.
[16:10] <billycin1> so
[16:10] <billycin1> few topics i wanted to cover today
[16:11] <billycin1> ok - we'll live with this right now
[16:11]  * billycin1 prays the network will not cut out again
[16:11] <billycin1> so:
[16:11] <billycin1> 1. wanted to give an update on what we have been doing in the training project so far
[16:11] <billycin1> 2. timelines - when you can see something happening
[16:11] <billycin1> 3.How you can get involved
[16:12] <billycin1> 4. what will happen next
[16:12] <billycin1> btw - this is my first open week session
[16:12] <billycin1> so... be patient ;)
[16:12] <billycin1> alright
[16:13] <billycin1> so as some of you will know, canonical started to initiate community involvemet with the training projects in august
[16:13] <SvZ> @now
[16:13] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 25 2007, 15:13:44 - Next meeting: Kernel Team in 5 days
[16:13] <billycin1> the plan was, and still is to produce a community based / involved desktop course
[16:13] <billycin1> which will then be freely available for all to use
[16:14] <billycin1> since august a bunch us have done * a lot * of work
[16:15] <billycin1> and much sweat, blood and tears has been exchanged
[16:15] <billycin1> well, almost
[16:15] <billycin1> the process is:
[16:15] <billycin1> We agreed on the TOC - over 60 people provided input to that
[16:15] <billycin1> we then have bi-weekly meetings to discuss progress of the project and any issues
[16:16] <billycin1> there are 11 sections
[16:16] <billycin1> details of which you can find:
[16:16] <billycin1> here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Training
[16:16] <billycin1> basically: our indian content writer write the base
[16:16] <billycin1> we then refine, chop, edit, enhance
[16:16] <billycin1> etc
[16:17] <billycin1> this has been a tough process - for a number of reasons
[16:17] <billycin1> but mainly because of use of bzr and docbook
[16:17] <billycin1> but we're getting there
[16:17] <billycin1> i can elaborate but will spare the details for now
[16:17] <billycin1> so we are now at the stage where
[16:18] <billycin1> next week we host a 2-day pilot in sri lanka
[16:18] <billycin1> this will run as a real life course where we check the material content,
[16:18] <billycin1> ensure thatthe instructor is focusing on the right sections
[16:18] <billycin1> time each section
[16:18] <billycin1> and basically ensure that our objectives are met
[16:18] <billycin1> not sure how many of you know but
[16:19] <billycin1> the whole of the sri lanka government is deploying ubuntu :)
[16:19] <billycin1> so
[16:19] <billycin1> 1. big \o/
[16:19] <billycin1> 2. we would anyway need to train them, so what we are doing is training the instructors, who will then need to go and train the office workers
[16:20] <billycin1> so i will be going there
[16:20] <billycin1> and our indian training partner will be running the 2 days
[16:20] <billycin1> if all goes according to plan, this is what will happen next:
[16:21] <billycin1> 1. I survive 2 days of flights and 2 days in sri lanka and make it from there to boston
[16:21] <billycin1> 2. Start drafting the corrections / amendments that will need to happen
[16:22] <billycin1> if it is anything like the system builder course, this should not take longer than 2 weeks
[16:22]  * billycin1 keeps fingers crossed
[16:23] <billycin1> 3. i will then send the files to Drichardson who has kindly volunteered to make the material 'look pretty'
[16:23] <billycin1> 4. Once this is done - and I am aiming for mid - end nov at the latest
[16:23] <billycin1> IT WILL BE RELEASED TO THE WIKI
[16:24] <billycin1> the reason it is written in docbook is so that it can be printed off in courseware style
[16:24] <billycin1> so you guys (and whoever) can use it freely
[16:24] <billycin1> how can you get involved from here:
[16:24] <billycin1> well, many ways and feel free to add:
[16:25] <billycin1> 1. Please join our bi-weekly meetings
[16:25] <billycin1> the next one will take place in3 weeks from today (as opposed to 2 weeks as i am in boston)
[16:25] <billycin1> we discuss how to improve the material and new elements required
[16:25] <billycin1> or anything that has been missed
[16:26] <billycin1> 2. Get translating - the more people who can access this in more languages - the better
[16:26] <billycin1> 3. make it your own
[16:27] <billycin1> when we issued the TOC for review, there were many many suggestions
[16:27] <billycin1> as this is intended for newcomers, we had to KIS
[16:27] <billycin1> but there is no reason why you guys can not elaborate and make material available on features you feel need it
[16:28] <billycin1> you will have the framework to make this more simple
[16:28] <billycin1> the minute we know what will be involved in hardy, we will also need to make updates for that
[16:29] <billycin1> i think you will all agree that this is a great way to reach out to more ubuntu newbies
[16:30] <billycin1> if the Canonical / community approach works, this course will be the first in the series of such initiatives
[16:31] <billycin1> ok - i am going to move over to the chat section so that i can answer some questions
[16:31] <popey>  < michaelramm> QUESTION: Is there a place for a Linux/Ubuntu newbie on the training team?
[16:31] <billycin1> popey: absolutely
[16:31] <billycin1> move tothe chat room
[16:31] <popey> billycin1: we tend to stay here
[16:31] <popey> I'll paste your questions in here
[16:31] <popey> sorry / their/ questions in here
[16:32] <billycin1> so i should stay here?
[16:32] <popey> yus
[16:32] <billycin1> cool
[16:32] <billycin1> ok, i'm back
[16:32] <billycin1> so: newbies - hugely in demand
[16:32] <popey> :)
[16:32] <popey> (just say "next" when you want the next question)
[16:32] <billycin1> this course is designed for newbies, so those of us who have been using it for a while take some things for granted
[16:33] <billycin1> if you can be part of the material reviewing or
[16:33] <billycin1> just tell us what you feel is unclear and problematic to new users - that would be great
[16:33] <billycin1> next please
[16:33] <popey>  < dinda> QUESTION:  Will the materials be updated for each release?  or just LTS?
[16:33] <michaelramm> Well, in that case....michaelramm reporting for duty!
[16:34] <billycin1> michaelramm: fabulous :)
[16:34] <billycin1> dinda: for every release
[16:34] <billycin1> the sys admin course is updated majorly got LTS but we still provide updates with every release
[16:34] <billycin1> critical updates
[16:34] <billycin1> next pls
[16:34] <popey>  < FayZee> QUESTION: You say the instructor-led material will be in docbook so as to be printed off. What format will the e-learning course take? Moodle?
[16:35] <billycin1> yes - moodle
[16:35] <billycin1> the elearning course will be a paid for service
[16:35] <billycin1> next pl
[16:35] <popey>  < kotfic> QUESTION: you mentioned training trainers,  are there any resources for people who need to train trainers?
[16:36] <billycin1> so - there will also be an instructor guide available
[16:36] <billycin1> which is hugely self explanatory
[16:36] <billycin1> other than that - i would rely on people who have trained desktop before.
[16:36] <billycin1> .... even MS
[16:36] <billycin1> next pls
[16:37] <popey>  < dinda> QUESTION: How is the Partner Program working out?  Can you tell the room a bit about that process?
[16:37] <billycin1> sure
[16:37] <billycin1> so right now we have about 15 key countries in which we are actively looking for partner
[16:37] <billycin1> s
[16:37] <billycin1> we have fulfilled 8 of those countries
[16:37] <billycin1> in advanced process with US and UK
[16:37] <billycin1> and have another 5
[16:38] <Gareth> topic
[16:38] <Gareth> erm
[16:38] <billycin1> we are limiting the number of partners in each country / region
[16:38] <billycin1> so that the partners who have signed up, can enjoy the fruits of their labour
[16:39] <billycin1> students are not queueing around the block right now
[16:39] <billycin1> and while we expect this to change with increase in corporate and government deployment
[16:39] <billycin1> this does take time and effort from Canonical and the partners
[16:39] <billycin1> so - anybody can get a hold of the desktop course and start teaching it
[16:39] <billycin1> but
[16:40] <billycin1> only authorised partners get the official partner status
[16:40] <billycin1> so to speak
[16:40] <billycin1> dinda: does that answer?
[16:40] <dinda> sounds great
[16:40] <billycin1> cool
[16:40] <billycin1> next pls
[16:40] <popey>  < dgjones> QUESTION: In Europe there is the ECDL (European Computer Driving Licence)  which gives basic IT training with a Europe wide recognised qualification, but its Microsoft based, will the training thats being developed offer something similar in terms of a qualification & levels of training
[16:40] <billycin1> dgjones: good question
[16:41] <billycin1> so instead of creating our own, we are thinking of partnering with ECDL
[16:41] <billycin1> they do have a linux interest which we are exploring
[16:41] <billycin1> also for the international version, not just european
[16:41] <billycin1> there are so many certifications out there - we want to make it really easy for people
[16:41] <billycin1> next pls
[16:42] <popey>  < michaelramm> QUESTION: What resources will be provided so that LoCo's can take the training to the community?
[16:42] <billycin1> take the training to the community?
[16:42] <billycin1> elaborate please
[16:42] <michaelramm> offer training sessions to the local community, not ubuntu community
[16:43] <billycin1> michaelramm: so, the material is there for you to use but I don't see a scenario right now where we fund such training
[16:43] <billycin1> if that is what you mean?
[16:44] <billycin1> next pls
[16:44] <michaelramm> so the instuctor-led class, would there be handouts, a book for reference, etc.
[16:44] <billycin1> michaelramm: so - print will not be provided BUT
[16:45] <billycin1> what we will be doing is offering printed versions in book format which can be ordered online
[16:45] <billycin1> I doubt this will suit the purpose though as it will be a paid for service
[16:45] <billycin1> i am looking att a coupld of options for this
[16:45] <billycin1> next pls
[16:45] <popey>  < kotfic> QUESTION: what are the usual turn around times on doc translation for somting like French?
[16:46] <billycin1> kotfic: no idea - never done it but
[16:46] <billycin1> what i can tell you is that it is taking a full time translator 6 weeks to translate from english to russian
[16:46] <billycin1> 400 sides of another corse we have
[16:46] <billycin1> course
[16:47] <billycin1> so - to do it well, takes time
[16:47] <billycin1> next ple
[16:47] <billycin1> s
[16:47] <Mnabil> lol
[16:47] <popey>  < FayZee> QUESTION: I'm interested in the paid-for elearning course in Moodle. Can you tell something about it please?
[16:47] <billycin1> Fayzee: so
[16:47] <billycin1> it will have the same TOC and structure as the instructor led
[16:48] <billycin1> planned for release in late Nov. / early dec
[16:48] <billycin1> anticipated price is $100 for a 4 hour stint
[16:48] <billycin1> access will be available for 6 months
[16:48] <billycin1> it iwll be very interactive
[16:48] <billycin1> with simulations, voice overs etc
[16:48] <billycin1> anything else you would like to know?
[16:49] <Fay> Sounds cool :-) Thanks
[16:49] <billycin1> next pls
[16:49] <Fay> Is there a link?
[16:49] <billycin1> not yet
[16:49] <billycin1> the child is not born
[16:49] <billycin1> ;)
[16:49] <popey>  < popey> QUESTION: "partner status", does that mean that non-partners can't use the trademarked Ubuntu logo in their marketing, or is it slightly less insidious than that :S?
[16:50] <billycin1> so they can not use the ubuntu training partner logo
[16:50] <billycin1> if you can usually use the 'regular' ubuntu logo - then you can continue to do so
[16:50] <popey> thats the only difference?
[16:51] <billycin1> popey: yes, you are not stamped as an authorise training center. can you use the logo now?
[16:51] <billycin1> the regular ubuntu i mean
[16:51] <popey> as an ubuntu member you can on business cards, yes
[16:51] <popey> maybe elsewhere too
[16:51] <popey> but I guess you will have a special logo "Training partner" type thing
[16:51] <popey> ok that answers my question, thanks :)
[16:51] <billycin1> if you imply that you are a professional working on canonical's behalf, then no
[16:52] <popey> right
[16:52] <billycin1> yes we do
[16:52] <billycin1> np
[16:52] <billycin1> next pls
[16:52] <popey> < bonii> QUESTION: How can the local LUGs and GLUGs which try to provide training to the newcomers be integrated into the LOCOs so that the reach can be increased?
[16:52] <billycin1> bonii: huge question
[16:52] <billycin1> which i will gladly flick onto the loco team council
[16:53] <popey> there isnt a loco team council (yet)
[16:53] <billycin1> there is one of those now - i think?
[16:53] <popey> as I understand it
[16:53] <popey> flick it to jono :)
[16:53] <billycin1> right - i think one is in the forming and that would be a good place to start
[16:53] <billycin1> i think that activity should absolutely be established
[16:53] <billycin1> next pls
[16:53] <michaelramm> All bucks stop at the desk of Jono Bacon!
[16:54] <popey> < moriancu1er> QUESTION: Where are these materials available?
[16:54] <popey> (put that in so you can plug in the wiki and mailing list)
[16:54] <billycin1> they will be loaded onto the wiki
[16:54] <billycin1> thanks popey
[16:55] <billycin1> I will announce the launch on the training mailing list which popey has kindly reminded me to advertise ;)
[16:55] <billycin1> 2 mailing lists: ubuntu-training-community
[16:55] <popey> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-training-community
[16:55] <billycin1> which receives all the dupdates on what's going on
[16:55] <billycin1> and one for training support related queries
[16:56] <popey> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-training-support
[16:56] <billycin1> ie when students or people about to take the ubuntu 199 exams can ask questions
[16:56] <billycin1> thanks popey
[16:56] <popey> np
[16:56] <billycin1> nice double act
[16:56] <billycin1> ok - we have 5 mins before the next meeting, after that i am happy to move to #ubuntu-training
[16:56] <popey> < dinda> QUESTION:  So currently you can only become an authorised Instructor by working for an authorised partner, correct?
[16:57] <billycin1> correct
[16:57] <billycin1> next pls
[16:57] <popey> thats your lot
[16:57] <billycin1> oh and
[16:57] <popey>  < dinda> QUESTION: What about any partnerships with Universities?
[16:58] <billycin1> #ubuntu-training - please join us, we do tend to hang out there daily and we sometimes get lonely....
[16:58] <billycin1> dinda: so that would be the ubuntu academy
[16:58] <Divilinux> hy all
[16:58] <billycin1> which has been delayed
[16:58] <billycin1> until 2008
[16:58] <billycin1> popey: that all?
[16:59] <popey> YES
[16:59] <popey> er
[16:59] <popey> yes
[16:59] <billycin1> :)
[16:59] <dinda> Great session, Billy!
[16:59] <billycin1> thanks for your time all
[16:59] <popey> thanks billycin1
[16:59] <michaelramm> Thanks Billy!
[16:59] <tbrminsanity> tks
[16:59] <billycin1> thanks all :)
[16:59] <billycin1> i am moving to #ubuntu-training
[17:01] <mrevell> Hello and thanks for attending this session which is an introduction to Launchpad.
[17:01] <mrevell> Over the next hour, I'll tell you what Launchpad is, what you can do with it and a little about its role in the Ubuntu community.
[17:02] <mrevell> Please post questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat. I'll answer questions at the end of the session.
[17:02] <mrevell> I'll also tell you when you can attend other Launchpad sessions during Ubuntu Open Week and about other sessions we've had that you can read in the UOW logs!
[17:02] <mrevell>  
[17:02] <mrevell> So, what is Launchpad?
[17:02] <mrevell>  
[17:02] <mrevell> Launchpad is a suite of tools that help you to take part in free software projects. There are six main Launchpad applications, each dealing with different parts of the development and life of a free software project.
[17:03] <mrevell> They are:
[17:03] <mrevell> * Bug tracker - https://bugs.launchpad.net/
[17:03] <mrevell> * Code hosting - https://code.launchpad.net/
[17:03] <mrevell> * Translations - https://translations.launchpad.net/
[17:03] <mrevell> * Answers (user support) - https://answers.launchpad.net/
[17:03] <mrevell> * Blueprint (feature planning) - https://blueprints.launchpad.net/
[17:03] <mrevell> * Soyuz (package and distribution management) - more about Soyuz later.
[17:03] <mrevell> Projects can pick and choose which applications they want to use but the more of Launchpad that a project uses, the more useful it becomes.
[17:04] <mrevell>  
[17:04] <mrevell> Launchpad and Ubuntu
[17:04] <mrevell> --------------------
[17:04] <mrevell>  
[17:04] <mrevell> The Ubuntu community makes extensive use of Launchpad.
[17:04] <mrevell> Ubuntu's bugs are tracked in Launchpad:
[17:04] <mrevell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[17:04] <mrevell> You can translate Ubuntu using Launchpad:
[17:04] <mrevell> https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[17:04] <mrevell> If you need help with Ubuntu, you can ask a question using Launchpad.
[17:04] <mrevell> Or, if you want to contribute back to the Ubuntu community by helping other people, you can answer their questions:
[17:04] <mrevell> https://answers.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[17:04] <mrevell> You can propose new features and see future plans for Ubuntu:
[17:04] <mrevell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[17:05] <mrevell> Other projects use Launchpad too. For example, the Bazaar version control system, the Exaile media player, the Zope web framework and others.
[17:05] <mrevell> People in Launchpad
[17:05] <mrevell> -------------------
[17:05] <mrevell>  
[17:05] <mrevell> Before you can start using Launchpad, you need a Launchpad account.
[17:05] <mrevell> Signing up for one is easy. All you need is a working email address.
[17:05] <mrevell> You can find out how to create your Launchpad account in our guide at:
[17:05] <mrevell>  
[17:06] <mrevell> https://help.launchpad.net/CreatingYourLaunchpadAccount
[17:06] <mrevell>  
[17:06] <mrevell> Having your own Launchpad account will allow you to log into the Ubuntu wiki, use the Canonical shop, order ShipIt CDs and more. It's pretty important if you want to take part in the Ubuntu community.
[17:06] <mrevell> Once you've got your account, you can personalise it with information about yourself and a couple of photos!
[17:06] <mrevell> Launchpad isn't Facebook, though :-) Adding this sort of information to your profile can be really useful.
[17:06] <mrevell>  
[17:06] <mrevell> Let's take a look at a real-life Launchpad user profile:
[17:06] <mrevell>  
[17:06] <mrevell> https://launchpad.net/~alanpope
[17:06] <mrevell>  
[17:07] <mrevell> If you're logged into Launchpad, you can see a short personal statement from Alan, how to contact him and some of what he has worked on in Launchpad.
[17:07] <mrevell> Launchpad is great at bringing free software people together
[17:07] <mrevell> For example: if I come across a feature blueprint that Alan has filed, and I like his idea, I may want to help out. Let's say his idea is to create a new Ubuntu application for tracking information about Elvis impersonators.
[17:07] <mrevell> I want to help him flesh the idea out, so I click on his name on the blueprint page and it takes me to his Launchpad profile.
[17:08] <mrevell> On his profile page, I find out how to contact him, what other things he's been working on and I even get an idea of what he looks like!
[17:08] <mrevell> (Take a look at https://launchpad.net/~matthew.revell if you really want to see my picture.)
[17:08] <mrevell> Now, Alan is no longer a meaningless name but he's a person I can start working with.
[17:08] <mrevell> By clicking the tabs at the top of his profile, I can even see what he's been up to in each different part of Launchpad.
[17:08] <mrevell> Clicking the "Answers" tab, I see that he frequently answers people's support requests:
[17:09] <mrevell> https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/~alanpope/
[17:09] <mrevell> Not only can someone with a Launchpad account contact other people but they can also take on certain roles, such as:
[17:09] <mrevell>  
[17:09] <mrevell> * bug contact
[17:09] <mrevell> * project driver
[17:09] <mrevell> * official translator.
[17:09] <mrevell>  
[17:09] <mrevell> They can also create and join teams.
[17:09] <mrevell>  
[17:09] <mrevell> Teams in Launchpad
[17:09] <mrevell> ------------------
[17:09] <mrevell>  
[17:09] <mrevell> So, Alan and I get together and decide that we want to work on our new Elvis impersonator tracker. We've also met some other people who want to get involved.
[17:10] <mrevell> We create a team at:
[17:10] <mrevell>  
[17:10] <mrevell> https://launchpad.net/people/+newteam
[17:10] <mrevell>  
[17:10] <mrevell> You can see an example of a real team at:
[17:10] <mrevell>  
[17:10] <mrevell> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki
[17:10] <mrevell>  
[17:10] <mrevell> It looks much like a person's profile. You can also see who is a member of the team, either as a list:
[17:10] <mrevell>  
[17:10] <mrevell> https://edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki/+members
[17:10] <mrevell>  
[17:10] <mrevell> or as a group photo:
[17:10] <mrevell> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki/+mugshots
[17:11] <mrevell> Just like people, teams can also be members of other teams.
[17:11] <mrevell> This makes it easy to create a structure for a project or initiative within Launchpad.
[17:11] <mrevell> The Ubuntu Wiki team is a member of the Ubuntu Documentation Project team, as you can see here:
[17:11] <mrevell> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-wiki/+participation
[17:11] <mrevell> Teams are like people in other ways.
[17:11] <mrevell> They too can, for example, act as a project or Ubuntu package's bug contact.
[17:11] <mrevell> This means that whenever a new bug is filed against that project or package, everyone in that team is notified.
[17:12] <mrevell> Those team members also get the permissions of a bug contact, such as setting certain restricted bug statuses.
[17:12] <mrevell>  
[17:12] <mrevell> Blueprints
[17:12] <mrevell> ----------
[17:12] <mrevell>  
[17:12] <mrevell> Remember earlier I mentioned blueprints?
[17:12] <mrevell> Well, just like blueprints in the world of architecture, Launchpad blueprints help to turn an idea into something a little more concrete.
[17:12] <mrevell> Blueprints are a flexible way for people to set out an idea, optionally with details of how they'd implement it.
[17:13] <mrevell> Let's take a look at an example:
[17:13] <mrevell> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/free-flash
[17:13] <mrevell> Each blueprint can have a:
[17:13] <mrevell> * "Drafter" - the person who is responsible for setting out the idea
[17:13] <mrevell> * "Assignee" - the person who is going to implement the ideas set out in the blueprint
[17:13] <mrevell> * "Reviewer" - the person who'll check the work on the blueprint.
[17:13] <mrevell> You can see these in the top right of the page, along with an implementation status, priority and a definition.
[17:14] <mrevell> That last one is important because it can only be set by the project drivers. So, although anyone can create a blueprint, it's the project's drivers who get to choose its priority etc.
[17:14] <mrevell> There's something else in the top-right, too: the "series-goal".
[17:14] <mrevell> Launchpad helps projects and distributions to plan their releases in a number of ways.
[17:14] <mrevell> A distro-series or release-series is a major line of development.
[17:14] <mrevell> In Ubuntu's case, Gutsy is one of these distro-series
[17:15] <mrevell> An important link on the blueprint page is "Read the full specification".
[17:15] <mrevell> Launchpad Blueprint isn't designed to replace the wikis, mailing lists and other ways that projects use to organise themselves.
[17:15] <mrevell> Instead, it helps track useful meta-data about the information held on these wikis.
[17:15] <mrevell> So, the Ubuntu wiki is where the Ubuntu community stores the meat of its blueprints.
[17:16] <mrevell> There's more to say about blueprints but we don't have time in this session.
[17:16] <mrevell> Join us at 17.00 UTC on Friday to learn more about Blueprint.
[17:16] <mrevell> However, before we leave blueprints, I'd like to point out the small white cross on a red background; it looks like a Swiss flag.
[17:16] <mrevell>  
[17:16] <mrevell> Mentoring
[17:16] <mrevell> ---------
[17:16] <mrevell>  
[17:16] <mrevell> Remember I said earlier that Launchpad helps free software people to work together?
[17:16] <mrevell> Mentoring is a fantastic example of just how Launchpad does it.
[17:17] <mrevell> Let's say I see the blueprint we've been looking at.
[17:17] <mrevell> Imagine I'm a keen but inexperienced developer.
[17:17] <mrevell> I really want to help implement a free Flash player for Ubuntu. I don't know where to start though.
[17:17] <mrevell> However, I see that Alexander Sack is offering to mentor people on this.
[17:17] <mrevell> I click his name and I'm taken to a page listing his blueprints.
[17:17] <mrevell> Another click on the "Overview" tab and I can find out how to contact him.
[17:18] <mrevell> Now, Alexander can help me learn how I can use my skills to help progress this blueprint and to learn the ways of the Ubuntu community.
[17:18] <mrevell> Each offer of mentoring is linked to a particular Launchpad team.
[17:18] <mrevell> This makes it easy to find offers that you're particularly interested in.
[17:18] <mrevell> Ubuntu's Mozilla team, for example:
[17:18] <mrevell> https://edge.launchpad.net/~mozillateam/+mentoring
[17:19] <mrevell> Both bug reports and blueprints can have offers of mentoring.
[17:19] <mrevell>  
[17:19] <mrevell> Bug Tracker
[17:19] <mrevell> ------------
[17:19] <mrevell>  
[17:19] <mrevell> For many people in the Ubuntu community, reporting and managing bugs accounts for a lot of the time they spend using Launchpad.
[17:19] <mrevell> Let's take a look:
[17:19] <mrevell>  
[17:19] <mrevell> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[17:19] <mrevell>  
[17:19] <mrevell> Reporting bugs using Launchpad's web interface is pretty easy.
[17:19] <mrevell>  
[17:19] <mrevell>  Simply type in a summary of the bug you've found and Launchpad will search all existing bug reports to check that the bug hasn't already been reported.
[17:19] <mrevell>  
[17:20] <mrevell> If you see that the bug has already been reported, you can subscribe to it and get email updates when something changes.
[17:20] <mrevell>  
[17:20] <mrevell> However, if the bug hasn't been reported, all you need do is describe what you found in more detail.
[17:20] <mrevell>  
[17:20] <mrevell> A member of the Ubuntu bugs team will try to confirm that you bug exists and give it an appropriate importance level.
[17:20] <mrevell>  
[17:21] <mrevell> Other people can also add comments or upload screenshots and other attachments to help the relevant developers understand the problem.
[17:21] <mrevell> You can also use the bug tracker through its email interface.
[17:21] <mrevell>  
[17:21] <mrevell> This makes it particularly easy to automate your use of the bug tracker or may be of interest if you prefer not to use the web interface.
[17:21] <mrevell>  
[17:21] <mrevell> There's something else that's particularly special about the way Launchpad deals with bugs.
[17:21] <mrevell>  
[17:22] <mrevell> Briefly: bugs in free software can pop up almost anywhere.
[17:22] <mrevell> This is partly because free software projects share code and rely on libraries provided by other projects.
[17:22] <mrevell>  It's also true that if you find a bug whilst using Ubuntu, that bug may have originated in, for example, code provided by the Firefox or OpenOffice.org projects.
[17:22] <mrevell> Launchpad makes it easy for different communities to work together on the same bug.
[17:23] <mrevell> If you want to know more about this or any other part of the bug tracker you can attend our session dedicated to Launchpad's Bug Tracker at 19.00 UTC today
[17:23] <mrevell> and read the log of the Bug Triage session - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekgutsy/BugTriage
[17:24] <mrevell> Earlier I said that if projects use more than one Launchpad application, Launchpad actually becomes more useful to them.
[17:24] <mrevell> One of way is bug-branch links. Developers can upload code to Launchpad and mark it as a fix for a particular bug.
[17:24] <mrevell>  
[17:24] <mrevell> Code hosting
[17:24] <mrevell> ------------
[17:24] <mrevell>  
[17:24] <mrevell> Launchpad works with the Bazaar version control system. Bazaar is a distributed version control system.
[17:24] <mrevell> That means everyone has their own code repository (called a branch in Bazaar terms).
[17:25] <mrevell> Unlike with CVS or Subversion, you don't need special permissions to start work on someone else's code.
[17:25] <mrevell> Instead, you create your own branch and work on that.
[17:25] <mrevell> It's then easy for the project to merge your changes back into the original branch.
[17:25] <mrevell> And hosting a branch publicly is really easy.
[17:25] <harkonen> QUESTION: so to draft a project, do you have to have any real plan for how it's going to get done or can it potentially be just a raw idea?
[17:25] <mrevell> harkonen: I'll answer questions at the end of the session, thanks.
[17:25] <mrevell> All you need is a standard web server and you can also do it through Launchpad.
[17:26] <mrevell> Launchpad makes Bazaar even more useful.
[17:26] <mrevell> One of the problems with distributed version control is that it can be hard to find all the branches associated with your project.
[17:26] <mrevell> Launchpad solves that. It has a browsable code catalogue for each project.
[17:26] <mrevell> Anyone can register their branch to show up in your project's branch list.
[17:26] <mrevell> You can see how active each branch is, read the developer's commit messages and create your own branch at any time.
[17:26] <mrevell> Importantly, Launchpad can either directly host the branches or mirror them.
[17:27] <mrevell> This means they're always available for anyone to create their own branch.
[17:27] <mrevell> Take a look at the branches for Ubuntu's Update Manager: https://code.launchpad.net/update-manager
[17:27] <mrevell> You can see the main branch but people have also created their own branches to work on their priorities.
[17:27] <mrevell> Bazaar makes it really easy for development to take different directions, while Launchpad helps make sure it's all accessible from one place.
[17:27] <mrevell> Now, take a look at the Bazaar project's branches: https://code.launchpad.net/bzr
[17:28] <mrevell>  Notice the small bug icons?
[17:28] <mrevell> If you create a branch to fix specific bugs, you can link the branch to the relevant bug reports. The bug icons indicate there's a link.
[17:28] <mrevell> With a link between a bug report and the branch that fixes it, everyone can now easily get hold of a bug's solution.
[17:28] <mrevell> On that page you can also see several branches registered to the Bazaar Developers team. These are team branches.
[17:28] <mrevell> They're hosted centrally, on Launchpad, and only members of the Bazaar Developers team can commit to them.
[17:29] <mrevell> Team branches are ideal for working together on a major line of development. Anyone can still create their own copy, though.
[17:29] <mrevell> Finally, Launchpad can make a continuous import of almost any CVS or Subversion repository hosted on the internet.
[17:29] <mrevell> This means that you can create your own Bazaar branch of the code and your own line of development.
[17:29] <mrevell> With Bazaar's bzr-svn plugin, and the appropriate commit access, you can even commit your code back to Subversion repositories.
[17:30] <mrevell> You can find out more about hosting code with Launchpad in the session after this - i.e. here at 18.00 UTC .
[17:30] <mrevell>  
[17:30] <mrevell> Translations
[17:30] <mrevell> ------------
[17:30] <mrevell>  
[17:30] <mrevell> Launchpad Translations, formerly known as Rosetta, takes the pain out of translating software into different languages.
[17:30] <mrevell> Let's take a quick look at Ubuntu's Translations page:
[17:30] <mrevell>  
[17:30] <mrevell> https://translations.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[17:30] <mrevell>  
[17:31] <mrevell> There you get a quick overview of how well Ubuntu 7.10 (Gutsy) has been translated into many different languages.
[17:31] <mrevell> Much of the free software world uses GNU's GetText.
[17:31] <mrevell>  Developers put markers in their code to show where a GetText should insert a string of interface text.
[17:31] <mrevell> GetText uses a certain file format to store translated strings. Although it's simple enough to edit this format by hand, the truth is that translators shouldn't have to be coders.
[17:32] <mrevell> Launchpad shields translators from the underlying complexities and gives them a simple web interface.
[17:32] <mrevell> Launchpad currently works with 243 languages and has more than 820,000 strings in its database.
[17:32] <mrevell>  
[17:32] <mrevell> Naturally, the same phrases occur in the interfaces of many applications.
[17:32] <mrevell>  
[17:32] <mrevell> When someone is translating an application, Launchpad checks its database to see if it has already seen those strings in that language. If it has, it suggests them to the translator.
[17:32] <mrevell> Launchpad also gives teams different ways to ensure they get the right balance between control of translations and encouraging community participation.
[17:33] <mrevell> From fully open - where anyone can translate - to totally restricted, where only pre-appointed translators can make translations and suggestions.
[17:33] <mrevell> Of course, development work usually starts on a new release while the stable release is still in use.
[17:33] <mrevell> Launchpad allows multiple translation efforts to take place concurrently for the same project.
[17:33] <mrevell> So, translation can begin on a new release and continue on the stable release.
[17:34] <mrevell> You can find out more about Launchpad Translations at 16.00 UTC tomorrow.
[17:34] <mrevell>  
[17:34] <mrevell> Answers
[17:34] <mrevell> -------
[17:34] <mrevell>  
[17:34] <mrevell> Mailing lists and web forums are traditionally where free software projects answer user support questions.
[17:34] <mrevell> However, it can be difficult to capture that knowledge and make it easily available to the community.
[17:34] <mrevell> Some people are also intimidated by mailing lists or the initiation rituals of some forums :)
[17:34] <mrevell> Launchpad's Answer Tracker is a simple way for people to ask questions about a project.
[17:34] <mrevell> Anyone can offer an answer and the original questioner can highlight the answer they found most useful.
[17:34] <mrevell> Members of a project's community can sign up to be support contacts, meaning they receive an email each time a new question is asked about that project.
[17:35] <mrevell> Support contacts can also identify which questions are FAQ. FAQ - along with a good answer - are then easily searchable and available to anyone.
[17:35] <mrevell> People can ask questions in their own language(s). Support contacts can choose to receive notification of questions asked in their preferred languages.
[17:35] <mrevell> Importantly, all of the questions and answers are easily searchable, meaning that they build into a knowledge-base for the project.
[17:35] <mrevell>  
[17:35] <mrevell> Personal Package Archives
[17:35] <mrevell> --------------------------
[17:35] <mrevell>  
[17:36] <mrevell> Before I continue, you can find out more about using Launchpad Answers in the Ubuntu community in the logs of popey's session at:
[17:36] <mrevell> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekgutsy/LP_TroubleshootAnswers
[17:36] <mrevell>  
[17:36] <mrevell> So, Personal Package Archives
[17:36] <mrevell>  
[17:36] <mrevell> Remember earlier I spoke about Soyuz? Well, this is the part of the Launchpad that helps put Ubuntu together.
[17:37] <mrevell> The part of Soyuz you're most likely to come across is Personal Package Archives.
[17:37] <mrevell> With Personal Package Archives (PPA), you can build and publish binary Ubuntu packages for multiple architectures simply by uploading an Ubuntu source package to Launchpad.
[17:37] <mrevell> If you've got a Launchpad account, you've signed the Ubuntu code of conduct and you've got an GPG key in your Launchpad profile, you can get your own PPA.
[17:37] <mrevell> Your PPA gives you:
[17:37] <mrevell>  
[17:38] <mrevell> * An APT repository of up to 1 gigabyte for material licensed in accordance with the PPA Terms of Use.
[17:38] <mrevell> * Binary packages built for x86 and AMD64 architectures against Ubuntu.
[17:38] <mrevell> * A web front-end where Launchpad users can browse and search for your packages.
[17:38] <mrevell>  
[17:38] <mrevell> You can find out how to use your PPA at:
[17:38] <mrevell> https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart/
[17:38] <mrevell> and in our session at 15.00 UTC tomorrow (i.e. Friday).
[17:38] <mrevell> This is one of the most exciting areas of development for Launchpad at the moment.
[17:38] <mrevell> PPA is in beta at the moment, so you'll need to join the Launchpad Beta Testers team.
[17:39] <mrevell> In fact, I'd recommend that to everyone. Find out how in our guide:
[17:39] <mrevell> https://help.launchpad.net/JoiningLaunchpadBetaTesters
[17:39] <mrevell> There's so much to tell you about Launchpad. I've just about covered the basics.
[17:39] <mrevell> So, please do join us for the remaining Launchpad sessions this week and come visit us on the launchpad-users mailing list at:
[17:39] <mrevell> http://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/launchpad-users
[17:39] <mrevell>  
[17:39] <mrevell> Okay, I'll dip into the -chat channel to find your questions. Just a moment.
 QUESTION: so to draft a project, do you have to have any real plan for how it's going to get done or can it potentially be just a raw idea?
[17:41] <mrevell> harkonen: If you want to sketch out some ideas and use Blueprint to help track, for example, who else is involved, then that's no problem.
[17:42] <mrevell> harkonen: Launchpad doesn't enforce any particular project management methodology on you. Instead, Blueprint helps you track ideas, feature specs, as chunks of work.
 QUESTION: How does Bazaar handle edit conflicts? With everyone having their own version of the code, doesn't that create more of them?
[17:44] <mrevell> lardarse: Nice nick. A great deal of development effort has gone into Bazaar's merge handling. I'm not a Bazaar developer but we do have a specific Bazaar session tomorrow (Friday) at 19.00 UTC.
 QUESTION:  When will the LaunchPad product be open-sourced, and why isn't it an open-source project already?
[17:45] <mrevell> mbt: Let me delve into the Launchpad Q&A session logs from Tuesday and I'll quote the answer that one of the Launchpad team leaders, Kiko, gave
[17:46] <mrevell> There has actually been a lot of discussion about OSSing LP internally as of late, but still no concrete decision in terms of dates and time
 it is a difficult decision for many of the stakeholders
[17:46] <mrevell> 18:31 <@kiko> so no promises, just allusions to possibilities; sorry.
[17:47] <mrevell> mbt: So, I plan has always been to open Launchpad and we will. I don't know when, though.
[17:47] <mrevell> s/I plan/our plan
[17:47] <mbt> Thank you.
[17:47] <mrevell> mbt: But it is something that we recognise as important and that we're working towards.
[17:47] <mrevell>  QUESTION:  Is there a Bazaar tutorial for someone who is already familiar with using Subversion or another non-distributed RCS?
[17:48] <mrevell> mbt: Take a look at: http://bazaar-vcs.org/BzrSwitching
 QUESTION: Any chance of launchpad ever supporting git for code repositories?
[17:50] <mrevell> bahadunn: I may have to come back to you on that. I was hoping to get a colleague who works directly on that part of Launchpad, but he's unavailable right now.
 QUESTION: with regards to 'mentoring' can you just do search for "these projects offer mentoring" instead of looking at specific projects to see if they offer it? (like a general search for those who want to help but don't have any particular app in mind?)
[17:51] <bahadunn> mrevell: ok thanks
[17:52] <mrevell> edenbeast: At the moment, no. But that would be a good addition to mentoring. Thanks. I'll make a note of that and put it forward as a suggestion.
[17:53] <mrevell> bahadunn: Ah, my colleague mwhudson is preparing an answer.
[17:54] <bahadunn> mrevell: cool
[17:54] <mrevell> bahadunn: ""It is unlikely that Launchpad will support hosting git branches at all soon.  But it's possible that we'll support importing from git, in a similar way to how we import from Subversion and CVS today"
[17:54] <mrevell> Any further questions? We have another six minutes.
[17:55] <mrevell> Up next is a session on the Launchpad Bug Tracker. Then after that we have a session on Launchpad Code Hosting.!
 QUESTION: do unanswered blueprints fade after a certain time?
[17:57] <mrevell> edenbeast: Well, there aren't really "unanswered" blueprints. However, blueprints are generally listed by the priority they've been assigned. So, if the project you're working with doesn't assign it a priority, or gives it a low priority, it'll appear lower in searches.
[17:57] <mrevell> Okay, popey has changed the topic, so I guess my time here is done.
[17:57] <mrevell> :)
[17:58] <mrevell> It's been a real pleasure and thank you very much for your questions and for listening.
[17:58] <mybunche> Thanks mrevell.
[17:58] <mrevell> Please do mail (matthew.revell@canonical.com) or ping me with further questions/comments about Launchpad.
[17:58] <mrevell> And join the launchpad-users mailing list and the beta team! :)
[17:58] <Jucato> thank you mrevell! (LP is less of a jungle to me now :P)
[17:58] <popey> sorry, wasn't trying to shove you out the door
[17:58] <popey> thought you'd finished :)
[17:58] <mrevell> Enjoy the bug tracking session that's coming up next.
[17:58] <mrevell> joking popey :)
[17:58] <popey> :)
[17:58] <popey> yeah, but this is logged :)
[17:59] <popey> people might think you really _do_ hate me :)
[17:59] <mrevell> popey: Ah, so it is.
[17:59] <mrevell> popey: Haha.
[18:02] <BjornT> ok, let's get on with the next session then
[18:02] <BjornT> i'm bjorn tillenius, the lead developer for the bug tracking part of Launchpad, and i'll be your host for this session about managing ubuntu bugs in launchpad.
[18:02] <BjornT> so, first of all, what's this session going to be about?
[18:03] <BjornT> some of you probably listened to the 'bug triage' session earlier this week, where brian and pedro explained how to triage bugs.
[18:03] <BjornT> in this session we'll focus on how to actually use launchpad to triage and manage the bugs. that means that i will try to explain how launchpad works, rather explaining about a specific process.
[18:03] <BjornT> for example, i might explain how to actually edit the status of a bug in the ui.
[18:03] <BjornT> what the different rows in the 'Affects' table means.
[18:03] <BjornT> how to deal with bugs that aren't ubuntu specific, and which already exists in another bug tracker.
[18:03] <BjornT> how to get an overview of bugs you are interested in.
[18:03] <BjornT> and so on...
[18:04] <BjornT> popey: do i need +v to speak in this channel? i.e., didn't anyone see what i just wrote the last minute? :)
[18:04] <popey> no
[18:04] <lardarse> we saw it
[18:05] <popey> but if we +z or +m the channel you will
[18:05] <BjornT> cool :)
[18:05] <BjornT> i haven't prepared this session that much actually, since there's so much to choose from. it's hard to know what you're interested in.  so, what i'll do is to start explaining about various things, but also monitor #ubuntu-classroom-chat for any question.
[18:05] <BjornT> don't be afraid to ask questions. i will stop now and then to answer them. that way you can tell me what you want me to talk about.
[18:06] <BjornT> so, let's start to look at the bug page, and see how to do various things.
[18:06] <BjornT> for example, let's look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/27014
[18:07] <BjornT> that is a bug that has already been triaged, but it serves as a good example
[18:07] <BjornT> btw, if you want to try things out, you can do so at https://staging.launchpad.net/
[18:08] <BjornT> staging contains a copy of our database, but it gets reset every day, so you can use it to experiment with. no e-mail notifications will be sent, or anything like that, so you won't annoy anyone with your edits.
[18:09] <BjornT> let's start with the pencil icon next to the "Bug description" (there's also "Edit description/tags" in the menu to the left)
[18:10] <BjornT> that takes you to an important page, where you can improve the summary and description of a bug.
[18:10] <BjornT> this bug already has a resonable good summary and description, but if you look at it, you can see that it has quite a lot of comments.
[18:11] <BjornT> often a lot of useful information get hidden inside the comments.
[18:12] <BjornT> that might make it hard for someone else to see what the bug is actually is about, especially when looking in the bug listings, where only the summary is visible
[18:12] <BjornT> so, if there is a discussion going on in the bug, it's useful to add the result of the discussion to either the summary or description.
[18:13] <BjornT> since we're already on that page, i should mentioned something about tags as well, which can can edit on the same page.
[18:14] <BjornT> tags are used to group bugs together in an ad-hoc way.
[18:14] <BjornT> a tag is a free-form text string, so it could be anything
[18:14] <BjornT> however, it's mostly useful when more than one person is using the same tag, so it's good to find out what tags are supposed to be used.
[18:15] <BjornT> for ubuntu, there's a list of tags at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Tags
[18:16] <BjornT> let's break for a question.
[18:16] <BjornT> < lardarse> QUESTION: For those of us who weren't here at the other session, what does triaging a bug mean?
[18:17] <BjornT> triaging a bug basically means deciding which priority a bug should have.
[18:18] <BjornT> in order to triage a bug, it's important to have as much information as possible, though, so a vital step in the triaging process is to gather information from the bug reporter, and ensure the bug report has all the information necessary to decide what's wrong, and how to fix it.
[18:19] <BjornT> gathering information from the bug reporter is important, and it's someone anyone can do. if you're interesting in trying it out, you should get in contact with the ubuntu bugsquad: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad
[18:20] <BjornT> let's get back to the bug page again.
[18:20] <BjornT> when triaging a bug you often have to edit the status, change the package, and so on.
[18:21] <BjornT> it's not entirely obvious how to do this, though.
[18:21] <BjornT> if you look at the bug page there are two rows in the 'Affects' table, 'Evolution' and 'evolution (Ubuntu)'
[18:22] <BjornT> when a bug first comes in as a bug report in Ubuntu, it usually has only the latter one, and that's the one you should edit.
[18:23] <BjornT> you'll probably see that if you click on 'evolution (Ubuntu)', it will take you to all the open bugs reported against the evolution package in ubuntu
[18:23] <BjornT> however, you'll also see that there are three 'eject' buttons, two of them are next to the Status and Importance
[18:24] <BjornT> if you click on any of them, a new edit screen will be visible
[18:24] <BjornT> there you can change the package; set the status and importance, as well as setting the assignee.
[18:25] <BjornT> you'll see that there are several different options for the status. i'm not going to explain what they mean now.
[18:26] <BjornT> if you're interested i'd suggest reading what kiko wrote aobut bug statuses: http://news.launchpad.net/general/of-bugs-and-statuses
[18:26] <BjornT> as well as talking with the ubuntu bug squad. they have documentation of how the different statuses should be used for ubuntu
[18:27] <BjornT> if you look at the "Importance" field in the same edit screen, most of you will see a pencil that is crossed out, and you can't change it.
[18:28] <BjornT> this is because the importance is used to prioritize the work of the developers, so they don't want just anyone being able to change it, since it can easily be misused.
[18:29] <BjornT> for ubuntu, you'll have to be a member of the ubuntu-bugcontrol team. you can become a member of that team after being a member of the ubuntu-bugsquad team, showing that you can triage bugs reasonable well.
[18:30] <BjornT> so, let's get back to the bug page and take a closer look at the 'Affects' table
[18:31] <BjornT> as i said before, there are two rows, one for 'Evolution' and one for 'evolution (Ubuntu)'
[18:31] <BjornT> this means that the same bug is in two places; the ubuntu package, and the upstream project (Evolution)
[18:32] <BjornT> it's often like this for ubuntu packages. bugs usually get fixed in upstream Evolution, and then the next version of the package will automatically have the fix.
[18:33] <BjornT> in launchpad we track the status of the bug in both locations.
[18:34] <BjornT> the reason for this is that even though the bug gets fixed in upstream Evolution, the bug still exists in the ubuntu package.
[18:34] <BjornT> the new version of Evolution needs to be packaged and uploaded, before it's considered fixed in ubuntu.
[18:35] <BjornT> a quick question before moving on
[18:35] <BjornT> < camrdale> QUESTION: how do I get the Importance changed if I'm not a member of a bugsqad team, is there somewhere to contact?
[18:36] <BjornT> to clarify, you have to be a member of the ubuntu-bugcontrol team to change the importance.
[18:36] <BjornT> and if you want to change the importance without being a member, you should contact them. if you do that a few times, they will probably let you join.
[18:37] <BjornT> the ubuntu-bugcontrol team can usually be found in #ubuntu-bugs here at freenode
[18:38] <BjornT> let's continue talking the same bug being in multiple places
[18:38] <BjornT> *talking about*
[18:39] <BjornT> it's important to link ubuntu bugs to existing upstream bugs, since that tells the developers that they don't have to do much about it. they can basically ignore the bug, until it gets fixed by someone else.
[18:41] <BjornT> the bug can not only be linked to upstream projects like Evolution. it can also be linked to other packages, for example the evolution package in debian
[18:42] <BjornT> linking to debian is usually a good thing to do, since many packaging bugs are fixed by debian, and can be synced from there.
[18:42] <BjornT> let's talk a bit about how to link the ubuntu bug to another bug.
[18:43] <BjornT> to do that, let's take a look at this bug instead: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/evolution/+bug/157060
[18:44] <BjornT> now, this bug hasn't been triaged yet, so i'm not saying that it should be linked to another bug, but it serves as a good example, since it's not linked.
[18:45] <BjornT> to say that a bug exists in another place, you use the "Also affects:" links
[18:45] <BjornT> you can choose to either add a project, or a distribution
[18:46] <BjornT> a distribution are things like Debian, which has packages, and project is everything else. a general rule is that if you want to link to Debian, use "Distribution", otherwise use "Project"
[18:47] <BjornT> if we click on "Project", it takes us to another page
[18:48] <BjornT> there we can see that the project is "Evolution", which is correct (if it's wrong, we can change it, but it's usually correct)
[18:48] <BjornT> there's also possible to enter the url of the other bug report
[18:49] <BjornT> ideally, you should search the bug tracker Evolution uses (you can see that it uses the Gnome Bug Tracker to track its bugs), and enter the URL of the relevant bug report here.
[18:50] <BjornT> that allows Launchpad to check the status of the other bug, and display this in Launchpad, so it's easier to keep track of it.
[18:51] <BjornT> one obvious question is of course, what to do if you can't find any existing bug report about the same problem.
[18:51] <BjornT> well, there are two things you can do here.
[18:52] <BjornT> the first thing is to simply leave out the URL. even though this is not as helpful as having a URL, it still tells people that the bug is not ubuntu specific, and it should be linked to another bug.
[18:53] <BjornT> by saying that the bug exists in upstream Evolution, but not linking to an actual bug report, allows someone else to see that this bug needs to be linked, and find, alternatively file a new bug report.
[18:54] <BjornT> for example, if you look at https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/evolution
[18:54] <BjornT> there you can see a link to "24 bugs need forwarding upstream"
[18:55] <BjornT> they are the bugs that someone should link to other bug reports
[18:55] <BjornT> we're starting to run out of time, so let's take another question before it's too late
[18:55] <BjornT> QUESTION: Shouldn't (almost) all bugs be linked to Debian, since Ubuntu syncs with Debian for every release?
[18:57] <BjornT> yes, this is true. however, sometimes it can be more work than it's worth, since there are a lot of bugs that'd need to be linked.
[18:57] <BjornT> if you're able to find the corresponding debian bug easily, though, then you should link it, i think.
[18:57] <BjornT> there is also work going on to make this much easier.
[18:58] <BjornT> ok, i should talk briefly about the second option for what to do when you can't find the bug in another bug tracker
[18:58] <BjornT> the answer is to file a new bug in the other bug tracker, since it probably hasn't been reported there yet.
[18:59] <BjornT> however, i should note that this is something that you should be a bit careful about.
[18:59] <BjornT> the relationship between ubuntu and upstream is important, so the one filing bugs in the bug tracker should ideally have a good relationship with the upstream project.
[19:00] <BjornT> so you should talk to the bugsquad before doing this.
[19:00] <BjornT> ok, that was everythin we had time for. thanks for listening!
[19:01] <samgee> thanks BjornT
[19:01]  * mwhudson clears his throat
[19:01] <BjornT> oh, and if you have any questions, you can talk to us in #launchpad
[19:01] <mwhudson> Good evening everyone!
[19:02] <mwhudson> I'm Michael Hudson.  I've been working for Canonical for about six months now.
[19:02] <mwhudson> I mostly work on Launchpad's code hosting services, and that's what I'm going to talk about today.
[19:02] <mwhudson> Please post questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat. I'll answer questions at the end of the session.
[19:02] <mwhudson> Step 1 of code hosting is getting code onto Launchpad, and there are three ways you can do it:
[19:02] <mwhudson> 1. You can host your Bazaar branches on Launchpad itself.
[19:02] <mwhudson> 2. You can mirror your Bazaar branches from your own server to Launchpad.
[19:02] <mwhudson> 3. You can have Launchpad maintain a Bazaar branch based on your SVN / CVS repository.
[19:03] <mwhudson> There's a common theme here: Bazaar.
[19:03] <mwhudson> I don't know how much you all know about Bazaar.
[19:03] <mwhudson> Here's the important thing from Canonical/Launchpad's point of view:
[19:03] <mwhudson> It's a *distributed* revision control system.
[19:03] <mwhudson> This means that anyone can take any branch and start hacking and make commits, give it to other people.
[19:04] <mwhudson> This means that anyone can take any branch and start hacking and make commits, give it to other people.
[19:04] <mwhudson> If you get a branch from someone, you can commit to their branch, revert their commits,
[19:04] <mwhudson> run 'log' and 'blame' and so on.
[19:04] <mwhudson> You don't even need internet access -- 'bzr branch' by default grabs the whole history of the branch.
[19:04] <mwhudson> Similarly, you can publish the complete branch -- and of course, people can copy that, and tailor it to their needs.
[19:05] <mwhudson> This is great for Free Software, because it radically lowers the barrier to entry.
[19:05] <mwhudson> You don't need to convince someone to give you the commit bit to be able to contribute meaningfully.
[19:05] <mwhudson> You can find out more about Bazaar in the open week session tomorrow at 19:00 UTC with Jelmer.
[19:05] <mwhudson> How do you publish your branch? Well, you can just upload it to Launchpad.
[19:06] <mwhudson> == 1. You can host your Bazaar branches on Launchpad. ==
[19:06] <mwhudson> I assume everyone has a Launchpad account?
[19:06] <mwhudson> If not, you really should get one now, before all the cool names are taken.
[19:06] <mwhudson> Got an account? Good
[19:06] <mwhudson> Once that's done, you'll need to upload a public SSH key.
[19:06] <mwhudson> You can make one of these using ssh-keygen, or whatever you do on Windows.
[19:07] <mwhudson> Once you've generated a key (or if you have one already), go to your Launchpad page
[19:07] <mwhudson> So, my Launchpad page is https://launchpad.net/~mwhudson.
[19:07] <mwhudson> There is a link in the Actions menu, on the left, labelled "Update SSH keys".
[19:07] <mwhudson> As a shortcut you can go to http://launchpad.net/people/+me/+editsshkeys
[19:07] <mwhudson> .
[19:07] <mwhudson> Once you're there, paste in your public key and click "Import Public Key".
[19:08] <mwhudson> Once that's done, you can push up a bzr branch.
[19:08] <mwhudson> Let's see how this can work:
[19:08] <mwhudson> mwh@grond:~$ cd ~/src/my-cool-project/
[19:08] <mwhudson> (this is my latest super cool project)
[19:08] <mwhudson> mwh@grond:my-cool-project$ bzr init .
[19:08] <mwhudson> (this creates an empty Bazaar branch in this directory)
[19:09] <mwhudson> mwh@grond:my-cool-project$ bzr add
[19:09] <mwhudson> added README.txt
[19:09] <mwhudson> added cool.py
[19:09] <mwhudson> (this adds the files of my project to the branch)
[19:09] <mwhudson> mwh@grond:my-cool-project$ bzr ci -m 'initial commit'
[19:09] <mwhudson> Committing revision 1 to "/home/mwh/src/my-cool-project/".
[19:09] <mwhudson> added README.txt
[19:09] <mwhudson> added cool.py
[19:09] <mwhudson> Committed revision 1.
[19:09] <mwhudson> (this created a revision containing the files i just added)
[19:09] <mwhudson> mwh@grond:my-cool-project$ bzr push bzr+ssh://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mwhudson/+junk/my-cool-project
[19:09] <mwhudson> Created new branch.
[19:10] <mwhudson> (this publishes the branch on launchpad)
[19:10] <mwhudson> You can see that bzr is a pretty lightweight tool here.
[19:10] <mwhudson> The '+junk' part of the URL means it's not part of a registered project
[19:10] <mwhudson> (I'll delete the branch some time after the meeting)
[19:10] <mwhudson> It takes Launchpad a couple of minutes to scan the branch,
[19:11] <mwhudson> but as I uploaded this one a couple of hours before the meeting we can see it here:
[19:11] <mwhudson> https://code.launchpad.net/~mwhudson/+junk/my-cool-project
[19:11] <mwhudson> I'll come back to this page after I've talked about other ways you can get code onto Launchpad.
[19:11] <aprendix> Hi, folks!
[19:11] <mwhudson> == 2. Mirror your Bazaar branches from your own server to Launchpad. ==
[19:11] <mwhudson> If for some reason you don't want to upload your code to Launchpad
[19:11] <mwhudson> (maybe you want to host your code on a server on the same side of the world as you)
[19:12] <mwhudson> you can arrange for Launchpad to mirror your branch.
[19:12] <mwhudson> As well as providing you with a free backup, it helps people find your code
[19:12] <mwhudson> as Launchpad is the default place to hunt for Bazaar branches.
[19:12] <mwhudson> An example of a mirrored branch is the mainline branch for the Bazaar tool itself:
[19:12] <mwhudson> https://code.launchpad.net/~bzr/bzr/trunk
[19:12] <mwhudson> (this is not hosted directly on Launchpad because it uses PQM,
[19:12] <mwhudson> which is a very cool tool for making sure that the tests always pass before code makes it to mainline
[19:12] <mwhudson> -- but I'm drifting off-topic)
[19:13] <mwhudson> On this page you can see where the branch is mirrored from, when the branch was last mirrored and when it will next be mirrored.
[19:13] <mwhudson> == 3. You can have Launchpad maintain a Bazaar branch based on your SVN / CVS repository. ==
[19:13] <mwhudson> The last major way of hosting code on Launchpad is to have your code imported from another repository.
[19:13] <mwhudson> We already do this for a number of major projects.
[19:14] <mwhudson> One that is close to my heart is Python:
[19:14] <mwhudson> https://code.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports/python/trunk
[19:14] <mwhudson> The way this works is that once details are registered,
[19:14] <mwhudson> Launchpad will copy the history of the CVS or SVN repository into a Bazaar branch
[19:14] <mwhudson> and then several times a day will update the Bazaar branch from the foreign repository.
[19:15] <mwhudson> We have several hundred imports going currently, and more get added every week.
[19:15] <mwhudson> You can see the recent additions at https://code.launchpad.net/+recently-imported-branches.
[19:15] <mwhudson> The code of the import service is the open source CSCVS project:
[19:15] <mwhudson> https://launchpad.net/launchpad-cscvs
[19:15] <mwhudson> Please ask questions people, it feels like I'm talking to myself :)
[19:15] <popey> (sorry)
[19:16] <mwhudson> So now we have some code on Launchpad.  What can we do with it?
[19:16] <mwhudson> The obvious thing is that we can get ourselves a copy of it.
[19:17] <mwhudson> Bazaar comes with a Launchpad plugin that makes getting the current development branch of any project a breeze.
[19:17] <mwhudson> For example, this is all it takes to get the development branch of my pydoctor documentation generator:
[19:17] <mwhudson> mwh@grond:~$ bzr get lp:///pydoctor
[19:17] <mwhudson> http://code.launchpad.net/pydoctor/ is redirected to https://code.launchpad.net/pydoctor/
[19:17] <mwhudson> Branched 516 revision(s).
[19:17] <mwhudson> mwh@grond:~$
[19:18] <mwhudson> If you want to get a specific branch, for example the branch I uploaded earlier
[19:18] <mwhudson> we go to its branch page: https://code.launchpad.net/~mwhudson/+junk/my-cool-project
[19:18] <mwhudson> On this page you can see instructions for how to download the branch
[19:18] <mwhudson> ("Example: bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mwhudson/+junk/my-cool-project").
[19:19] <mwhudson> You can also see the commit messages for the last few revisions of the branch.
[19:19] <mwhudson> This is a boring branch, the Bazaar project has some more interesting ones.
[19:19] <mwhudson> If we look at the mainline branch for bzr again:
[19:19] <mwhudson> https://code.launchpad.net/~bzr/bzr/trunk
[19:19] <mwhudson> We can look at the options.  "Browse code" and "Browse revisons" are links to codebrowse.
[19:20] <mwhudson> Codebrowse is Launchpad's online branch browsing service, it lets you browse through the revisions of a branch.
[19:20] <mwhudson> A bit like viewvc for CVS or Subversion.
[19:20] <mwhudson> Codebrowse actually runs GPLed software called Loggerhead, initially written by Robey Pointer.
[19:20] <mwhudson> I spend quite a bit of my work time maintaining it.
[19:20] <mwhudson> The version of the code we run is on Launchpad: https://code.launchpad.net/~mwhudson/loggerhead/production
[19:21] <mwhudson> (So you can use loggerhead to browse loggerhead... nicely recursive).
[19:22] <mwhudson> Returning to https://code.launchpad.net/~bzr/bzr/trunk...
[19:22] <mwhudson> You can subscribe to a branch, which means that you get email whenever the branch changes.
[19:22] <mwhudson> Branches can be associated to bugs they fix or blueprints they implement, and you can view these associations from this page.
[19:23] <mwhudson> You can also register merge proposals for a branch, which is a more advanced topic I'm not going to cover here.
[19:23] <mwhudson> These features are all things you get for free when you host your code on Launchpad.
[19:23] <mwhudson> so i've done what i usually do in real life
[19:23] <mwhudson> which is talk way too fast and finish early
[19:24] <mwhudson> so ask questions!
[19:24] <mwhudson> please :)
[19:25] <mwhudson> As there don't seem to be any questions
[19:26] <mwhudson> I can talk a little about the work we have planned on the code hosting side of launchpad
[19:26] <mwhudson> A subject that's close to my heart right now is making Loggerhead look a bit less like the web from 1999 :)
[19:27] <mwhudson> We're also working on a big rewrite of the code import system, which will make the UI much more sensible
[19:27] <mwhudson> (and fix various insanities in the backend you really really don't want to know about).
[19:28] <mwhudson> Pretty soon you'll be able to subscribe to the changes in a branch as an RSS or Atom feed.
[19:28] <mwhudson> ah, a question :)
 QUESTION: So in your opinion, bazaar is the future of version control - and we should be moving over to bazaar - and launchpad ;)
[19:28] <mwhudson> I guess the short answer to this is "yes, probably" :)
[19:29] <mwhudson> I've only ever really used CVS, Subversion and Bazaar seriously, and of the three, Bazaar is by far the most pleasant to work with.
[19:30] <mwhudson> Compared to Mercurial, Git, Monotone, Darcs, ..., ..., I'm not so well informed.
[19:30] <mwhudson> AFAICT, Bazaar has more of a focus on the user interface than the other tools, and that seems like a good focus to me.
 QUESTION: what about removing branches / code from LP ?
[19:31] <mwhudson> As of just a month or two ago, you can delete your branches from Launchpad
[19:31] <mwhudson> So long as nothing else references them.
[19:31] <mwhudson> This means no subscribers, no bug-branch links, no merge proposals, that sort of thing.
 mwhudson, cool what about some intergration between brz hosting and the PPA , something similar to bzr-buildpackage to build directly from a branch to a PPA
[19:33] <mwhudson> Ah, now this is not something I'm very qualified to speak about.
[19:33] <mwhudson> Let me see if I can rope someone in.
[19:34] <kiko> who?
[19:34] <mwhudson> ah, maybe you :)
[19:34] <mwhudson> kiko: can you think about an answer to this question?
[19:34] <kiko> we want to do that, but there are a few little technical barriers to doing so.
[19:34] <kiko> it's an awesome project and we have already planned for it
[19:34] <kiko> so stay tuned
[19:35] <imbrandon> ;)
 QUESTION: is it possible to create branches on the launchpad webinterface? some time ago it didn't work (for me).
[19:35] <mwhudson> yes, it should be possible
[19:36] <mwhudson> you've always been able to create mirrored branches in the web ui, but a recent change means that you can create a hosted branch through the web too
[19:36] <mwhudson> of course you still need to push some content to it using bzr+ssh or sftp
[19:37] <mwhudson> Another large but exciting task we're working on is the ability to do code reviews in Launchpad.
[19:38] <mwhudson> Both Bazaar (another GPLed project) and Launchpad practice code reviews:
[19:38] <mwhudson> To get a branch merged into the mainline branch, it has to pass review from a core developer who did not write the code.
[19:38] <mwhudson> We want to support this workflow in Launchpad, where you upload a branch,
[19:38] <mwhudson> nominate the branch you want it to be merged into (this is the "merge proposal" concept I avoided talking about above)
[19:38] <mwhudson> and put it forward for review.
[19:39] <mwhudson> and put it forward for review.  A reviewer will then be able to view a diff between your branch and the mainline,
[19:39] <mwhudson> comment on it and approve or decline it.
[19:39] <mwhudson> We even plan to support PQM-style robots
[19:40] <mwhudson> that run the test suite before allowing a branch to be merged.
[19:40] <mwhudson> But all this is a few months off.
 QUESTION: tortoiseSVN on windows is AWESOME! Is there work on TortoiseBZR on Windows and something equivelent for Nautilus?
[19:40] <mwhudson> There was a Google Summer of Code project to work on TortoiseBZR
[19:41] <mwhudson> I don't really know how far it got.
[19:41] <mwhudson> I haven't used a Windows box for more than using putty to ssh somewhere else for at least 5 years.
[19:41] <mwhudson> Seriously the wrong person to ask :)
[19:41] <mwhudson> I'm similarly clueless about nautilus though.
 QUESTION: ViewVC really makes browsing CVS and SVN via the web excellent. Is there anything equivalent for bzr?
[19:42] <mwhudson> yes, the loggerhead project i talked about earlier
[19:42] <mwhudson> for example: http://codebrowse.launchpad.net/~bzr/bzr/trunk/changes
[19:42] <mwhudson> working on this is actually part of my job
[19:43] <mwhudson> so if it doesn't fit your needs, then please file bugs and tell me about it :)
[19:43] <mwhudson> (feel free to ask Bazaar questions too, by the way)
 QUESTION: what about a codebrowser webui thats not part of LP, like when i host branches on my own server
[19:44] <mwhudson> loggerhead is a separate project, you can install it on your own server just fine
[19:44] <mwhudson> (it's a turbogears application)
[19:44] <mwhudson> but you can just get launchpad to mirror your branches, then it's me who has to worry about running it :)
[19:46] <mwhudson> any more questions?
[19:47] <mwhudson> well, if there aren't then i guess i'll wrap up a bit early
[19:47] <mwhudson> thank you all for listening!
[19:48] <sommer> thank you
[19:48] <mwhudson> stick around for Launchpad Q&A with kiko
[19:48] <mrevell> thanks mwhudson
[19:48] <sommer> interesting stuff
[19:48] <imbrandon> thanks mwhudson
[20:02] <kiko> good afternoon
[20:02] <kiko> and welcome to Launchpad Q&A!
[20:03] <kiko> this is my second session this week. it's raining for the first time in weeks and my hands are a bit cold, so my typing may not be up to par, but that may mean I get to think more about my answers.
[20:03] <kiko> the protocol is as follows
[20:03] <kiko> you ask a question on #ubuntu-classroot-chat
[20:03] <kiko> I'll paste it in here
[20:04] <kiko> and provide a reply. I get extra points if it's a good reply. if it's a bad reply I don't get to do UOW next time around!
[20:04] <kiko> (some people seem less than entertained by that)
[20:05] <kiko> so we'll need some questions in order for me to answer
[20:05]  * kiko fishes for questions
[20:07] <kiko> hard fishing
 [QUESTION] Is there much chance of LP becoming opensource soon.  There are some (basic) features I would love to add, but are not really importiant enough for a LP dev to work on?  Thanks
[20:08] <kiko> good question.
[20:08] <kiko> and how soon is soon?
[20:09] <kiko> I can say it's not going to happen in the next six months. there is a lot of code to sort out and there are canonical-related bits that need porting
[20:09] <Daviey> porting out or in?
[20:09] <kiko> porting out, and to other systems.
[20:09] <Daviey> Thanks
[20:10] <kiko> there's a matter of licensing: we would like to release as a completely free license, but some people are concerned that others would just fork launchpad and the value to users would be diminished
[20:10] <kiko> nobody has found a good answer or justification to that problem, so we're still discussing
[20:10] <Daviey> Is this discussion open?
[20:10] <kiko> if you have a smart idea to help there, please talk to me!
[20:11] <kiko> it's only happened in person-to-person emails, but we're all willing to discuss it
[20:11] <Daviey> I consider my question well answered.. Thats 10 points :)
[20:11] <kiko> it's not a taboo subject. just one that is hard!
[20:11] <kiko> thanks for asking it.
[20:11] <kiko> edenbeast> on bug tracking if one project is selected but no project name is filled in could you make it so that it then considers it as 'all projects' :P
[20:11] <kiko> that was a suggestion, but.. hard fishing, and it's an interesting one.
[20:12] <kiko> if I understand it right.
[20:12] <kiko> edenbeast, where do you mean "if one project is selected"?
 QUESTION: Is there an easy way to search for old bug reports by age, even if there is the janitor now?
[20:12] <kiko> excellent question.
[20:12] <kiko> giftnudel, yes. select "Oldest first" as the order when searching for bugs.
[20:13] <giftnudel> ah ok, I didn't know that existed, thanks
[20:13] <kiko> giftnudel, for instance: ...
[20:14] <kiko> http://tinyurl.com/26vv4v
[20:14] <kiko> there you go.
[20:14] <kiko> the other sorting options for bug listings are fun, try them out.
[20:14] <kiko> there's "recently changed" too
[20:14] <kiko> giftnudel, (under the covers it just sorts by ID ASC <wink>)
 QUESTION: "some people are concerned that others would just fork launchpad and the value to users would be diminished" isn't forking the value of open source in a sense? One size doesn't fit all? How do you see this as a problem?
[20:15] <kiko> that's a great question too.
[20:15] <kiko> here's my opinion.
[20:15] <kiko> forking is a great value of open source, but it's of /most/ value when it's software that /you/ will run
[20:16] <kiko> it's less value if you could fork, say, google's search code.
[20:16] <kiko> if you are not going to set up the solid infrastructure, then it's not so useful to be able to fork the code
[20:16] <kiko> now in launchpad, there is an additional, greater concern
[20:16] <kiko> which is that launchpad benefits users the most because of network effects
[20:17] <kiko> having projects together sharing information: bugs, translations, questions, code
[20:17] <kiko> if you fork launchpad and run myownlaunchpad.net
[20:17] <kiko> then that benefit is gone
[20:17] <kiko> some have argued that a federated system would be better
[20:17] <kiko> but I don't think that is actually a certainty
[20:18] <kiko> and it is definitely not what launchpad is today
[20:18] <kiko> making launchpad federated is a much larger proposal, and the engineering work to do that is significant
[20:18] <kiko> to fork launchpad without there being the ability to federate would be less useful to end-users
[20:18] <kiko> and that's what I care the most about
 [QUESTION] Do you happen to know how many registered users LP has? Thanks
[20:19] <kiko> great question. I do, and you do too (I think)
[20:19]  * kiko runs for a url
[20:19] <kiko> -> https://edge.launchpad.net/people
[20:19] <kiko> expand the Statistics portlet
[20:19] <kiko> There are currently 1373464 people and 1484 teams registered in Launchpad.
[20:19] <kiko> that's a lot of people
[20:20] <kiko> one observation: people requesting shipit CDs also register in launchpad
[20:20] <Daviey> Thanks! didn't know about /people
[20:20] <kiko> so a lot of that volume comes from there.
[20:20] <kiko> yeah, /people is a closely guarded secret
[20:20] <kiko> hmmm
[20:20] <kiko> no, in fact, that's a bug. :)
 QUESTION: Is there a an easy way to find all the tags when trying to categorize a bug, like a drop down list? Or do I need to know them by heart (or read them before)?
[20:21] <kiko> there is an easy way. but I'll let you in on a secret. it's horrible. :)
[20:21] <kiko> giftnudel, just visit the project's bugs home page -- bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu -- and expand the Tags portlet
[20:21] <giftnudel> Please, think of the children!
[20:21] <giftnudel> ok, so not easier than that :)
[20:22] <kiko> not easier than that /yet/
[20:22] <kiko> so one thing that I've been trying to convince BjornT to do
[20:22] <kiko> is to implement something called "official bug tags"
[20:22] <kiko> official bug tags would be tags blessed by project owners
[20:22] <kiko> they would be available as a list in bug +edit pages
[20:22] <kiko> and they would be listed preferentially in that tags portlet
[20:23] <kiko> that would make tags much more useful IMO
[20:23] <giftnudel> that would be wonderful
[20:23] <kiko> but he is still ignoring me. :)
[20:23] <giftnudel> now you have a supporter
[20:23] <Daviey> +1
[20:24] <kiko> BjornT, I have an army now ^^
[20:25] <kiko> I need to fish for more questions
 QUESTION: would adding a 'tagcloud' system to launchpad bug tracker make sense, so that you could check out other bugs related to a certain subject e.g. kubuntu-7.10 or x-server?
[20:26] <kiko> hmmm.
[20:26] <kiko> so I'm unsure if you mean a global tagcloud, or if you're thinking of one inside a certain project, say, Ubuntu.
[20:27] <kiko> if it's a global tagcloud, I'm not sure that would be that useful
[20:27] <kiko> because tags are kind of specific to the project they are in (even though the bug is shared)
[20:27] <kiko> if it's an Ubuntu tagcloud
[20:27] <kiko> well
[20:27] <kiko> that's giftnudel's question above
[20:27] <kiko> though right now the rendering is scary :)
 QUESTION: Is there or will there be a personal homepage that has links to all active projects, so I don't have keep my bookmarks in my browser? Like a activity page or so, that I can customize to have the important projects, bugs, answers in one place. Not splattered around in different subscribed places.
[20:29] <kiko> well, I have launchpad.net/~kiko
[20:29] <kiko> that is more or less a homepage, and an activity page
[20:30] <kiko> that can move in that direction -- definitely. but file bugs for things that are missing that would make sense there without cluttering.
[20:31] <giftnudel> The thing is there is a lot of my ideas in /~user, but normally, what I'm interested in is always hidden in 2 to 3 links, which takes a while to get through
[20:31] <kiko> giftnudel, what things are those?
[20:33] <giftnudel> The bug I subscribed three bugs before, and that kind (it always moves out of focus just when I need it, I think,- but that might be murphy)
[20:33] <kiko> if there are bugs that we can concretely fix to improve the page (without making it into an encyclopedia of everything giftnudel) then we can and will do it
[20:34] <giftnudel> ok, I need to think about that than
[20:34] <giftnudel> *then
[20:34] <gord> question: are there any plans to add rss support to launchpad (especially the answer tracker), its easier than forwarding *every* question/answer to your mailbox...
[20:35] <kiko> gord, yes, that's a task of the Feeds project!
[20:35] <kiko> it's one of the big things for early 2008
[20:35] <kiko> RSS feeds of bugs and answers.
[20:36] <gord> phew, i mentioned it to mark aages ago but my mailbox is starting to have heart attacks from it ;)
[20:36] <kiko> we're doing it
[20:36] <kiko> stay tuned. talk to statik or flacoste about it when you can!
 QUESTION: as soon as you're in a bug/project (e.g. https://bugs.launchpad.net/blubuntu/) you must go to Home and then to Bugs to go back to the search without going back in the browser, could you add another part of the breadcrumb above? (e.g. home>Bugs>blubuntu)
[20:38] <kiko> hmmmm
[20:38] <kiko> what sort of search are you doing edenbeast?
[20:38] <kiko> across different projects?
 [Question] Where can i find support on PPA issues?
[20:39] <kiko> on #launchpad, and on the launchpad-users mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/admin/launchpad-users
[20:40] <kiko> ask me! I'll help out.
[20:40] <Daviey> sounds good - i'll grab you tommorow.. thanks
[20:40] <kiko> edenbeast, wow. very few people actually search across all projects; that's an interesting use case we haven't thought of much
 QUESTION: i missed the first bit of this session, so apologies if its already been addressed -- How is Ubuntu faring in terms of bugs reported, bugs fixed etc?
[20:40] <kiko> great question
[20:40] <kiko> so I keep graphs of bugs filed across time
[20:41] <kiko> I'll disclose one to you. hang on.
[20:41] <kiko> async.com.br/~kiko/bugs.png
[20:41] <kiko> and another one on bug tags
[20:41] <kiko> async.com.br/~kiko/bugtags.png
[20:42] <pwnguin> sounds like a LP feature request in the making ;)
[20:42] <kiko> the bugtags graph makes it easy to see where the release was
[20:42] <kiko> note however that the number of open bugs didn't jump so much
[20:42] <kiko> the answer there is that we did /amazingly/ well this cycle
[20:43] <kiko> normally there is a big ramp-up of bugs for a release
[20:45] <pwnguin> is that reported bugs or bugs open?
[20:47] <kiko> bugs in total
[20:47] <kiko> bugs open follows that more or less
 QUESTION: How can I merge identities? There used to be a "this is me" button, where has it gone?
[20:47] <kiko> well
[20:48] <kiko> it's still here, but it only appears when the account isn't activated
[20:48] <kiko> if both accounts are activated
[20:48] <kiko> then:
[20:48] <kiko> http://launchpad.net/people
[20:48] <kiko> (again)
[20:48] <kiko> and Merge accounts!
[20:48] <giftnudel> ah, thanks
 [Question] Care to share how you made the graph?  So we can use it for other projects we 'own'?
[20:49] <kiko> Daviey, I could tell you but..
[20:49] <kiko> we have a scary hacked-up cricket instance
[20:49] <kiko> that runs queries and graphs them
[20:50] <kiko> it is really not a pretty sight
[20:50] <kiko> we need better querying but so far have been unable to prioritize this work
[20:50] <kiko> it would be very cool to have a +graphs page
[20:52] <Daviey> thanks
 QUESTION: any eta on linking bugs to savannah?
[20:55] <kiko> yes.
[20:55] <kiko> this should be handled in the next 2 months
[20:55] <kiko> it's been a lot of work to get watches fixed up until now
[20:55] <kiko> but we're in good shape a
[20:55] <kiko> nd more improvements are now easier.
 QUESTION: Did PPA package removal get pushed back from going into edge or am i missing something on the new UI
[20:55] <kiko> well
[20:55] <kiko> we rolled out today, so edge has been resynced
[20:55] <kiko> howeve
[20:55] <kiko> r
[20:56] <kiko> package removals are only available through admin requests right now
[20:56] <kiko> we will have UI for them later this cycle, on edge.
[20:56] <imbrandon> ahh ok thanks , great , i've been looking forward to it
[20:56] <kiko> yep
[20:56] <kiko> me too! it has eaten up three nights of mine reviewing the code
[20:56] <imbrandon> heh
 QUESTION: followup, will the package removal be remove source and all resulting binarys or can we cherry pick ?
[20:58] <kiko> quick answer: source and all resulting binaries
 [Question] Just a general interest question - How many hosts is LP?  Including webserving and database?
[20:58] <kiko> hmmm. let me count.
[20:59] <kiko> I think it's 14
[20:59] <kiko> let me confirm...
[20:59] <nithinkumary2k> [question] can I upgrade to 7.10 if iam running on 6.10
[21:00] <Daviey> nithinkumary2k: Can you keep questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat.  Thanks
[21:00] <kiko> 12 only apparently.
[21:00] <kiko> so there you go :-)
[21:01] <kiko> there are a few machines that are support services: carbon, asuka, mawson
[21:01] <Daviey> kiko: If you happen to know, how many of those are webserving and how many DB?
[21:01] <kiko> only one is DB, really
[21:01] <kiko> 4 app servers
[21:01] <Daviey> Thanks
[21:01] <kiko> and a front-end load-balancer
[21:02] <kiko> there are quite a few dedicated boxes for certain services
[21:02] <kiko> thanks to everyone that asked questions
[21:02] <kiko> I might be invited again!
[21:02]  * kiko waves
[21:02]  * popey waves
[21:02] <giftnudel> *me waves back
[21:02] <Daviey> No.. Thank you for answering them!
[21:02] <Daviey> 3 Cheers for kiko. Hip Hip
[21:02] <popey> Moo!
[21:02] <kiko> moo?
[21:03] <popey> Moo
[21:03] <harkonen> apt-get moo
[21:03] <kiko> moo then.
[21:03]  * kiko waves
[21:03]  * popey wonders if having a few beers before giving a classroom session was an overall wise thing to do
[21:03] <giftnudel> honestly?, well
[21:04] <popey> Hi, I'm Alan Pope and I'm a member of the Ubuntu Screencast Team.
[21:04] <popey> The team was started after the Ubuntu UK LoCo team created a few screencasts.
[21:04] <popey> It seemed logical to make screencasts a non-LoCo thing, but more a part of the documentation team
[21:04] <popey> The Screencast team comes under the banner of the documentation team, but we have our own..
[21:04] <popey> mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-screencasts
[21:05] <popey> launchpad team https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-screencasts and
[21:05] <popey> IRC channel - #ubuntu-screencasts
[21:05] <popey> And of course we have our own site: http://screencasts.ubuntu.com/
[21:05] <popey> The idea of screencasting was (and still is) to create high quality tutorial videos which feature Ubuntu and can be streamed or downloaded.
[21:05] <popey> That's it.
[21:05] <popey> We basically use tools to record the desktop to video, then edit it, add an audio track, encode to various formats and upload it. Sounds easy :)
[21:06] <popey>  < pwnguin> QUESTION: Can I make impressive high fps captures of openGL games yet?
[21:06] <popey> if your machine is powerful enough, sure :)
[21:06] <popey> however that's not really what we're about.
[21:06] <popey> I'll come to that in a moment
[21:06] <popey>  < giftnudel> QUESTION: Which formats do you offer?
[21:06] <popey> I'll answer that in just a moment too
[21:06] <popey> The "high quality" part refers to a number of things, some of which are somewhat subjective, some are my own personal opinion and they include:-
[21:07] <popey> . They should initially target new users of Ubuntu (and Linux) and as such should explain things clearly from beginning to end.
[21:07] <popey> . Make as few assumptions as possible about the viewer.
[21:07] <popey> . The text on the screen should be legible where possible (a 1024x768 screen scaled down to 100x70 isn't going to cut it, and so we can't necessarily always fulfil this one)
[21:07] <popey> . There must be an audio track, which should clearly explain what's going on in the screencast
[21:07] <popey> . They should be atomic. People should be able to watch one screencast and come away with something useful. They should have learned something.
[21:08] <popey>  - there shouldn't be too much dependence on previous screencasts
[21:08] <popey>  - although that is inevitable for new users
[21:08] <popey> . They should avoid the use of the terminal wherever possible.
[21:08] <popey>  - whilst I appreciate that the terminal is there, I'd like to not draw attention to it :)
[21:08] <popey> . They should be available to download in free formats (such as Ogg/Theora/Vorbis) and also stream (currently that's using flv/flash/mp3).
[21:09] <popey> We have a bunch of screencasts on the site available at multiple sizes and in different formats.
[21:09] <popey> We used to make all screencasts available in AVI/MPEG4/MP3, MOV/H.264/AAC as well as Ogg/Theora/Vorbis and Flv/Flash/MP3
[21:09] <popey> but recently we've cut that back to just Ogg and Flv, and so far nobody has complained - not to me anyway.
[21:09] <popey> Whilst I'd love to be able to make every screencast available in every format at every resolution there are some practical things to think about.
[21:09] <popey> Like the amount of time it takes to encode and upload (over my home connection) and then create the pages / RSS feeds and so on.
[21:10] <popey> We currently have about 11G of video online and chew up quite a bit of bandwidth serving that out. So that's good :)
[21:10] <popey> Clearly we need more videos
[21:10] <popey> The site is hosted on two machines at Canonical. One hosts the drupal site, the other hosts the static video/images.
[21:10] <popey> We did have it all on one box but this was killing the box when a new screencast appeared on planet ubuntu :S
[21:10] <cjb_ie> suitably tuned for the different workload profiles no doubt
[21:11] <popey> yus
[21:11] <popey> the static site has no php support
[21:11] <popey>  < imbrandon> QUESTION: the rss ( and such ) is all done by hand ? also couldnt the other formats be made progmaticly via the web UI from a source ogg ?
[21:11] <popey> the rss isn't so much done by hand
[21:11] <popey> I upload a video - for example an ogg at 1280x720
[21:11] <popey> i then create a page on the site with some content taken from a template
[21:11] <popey> i categorise that page
[21:12] <popey> automatically that creates an item in the rss feed
[21:12] <popey> which can get picked up by pocatchers like hpodder, bashbodder, miro (democracyplayer) and the like
[21:12] <imbrandon> right , ok
[21:12] <popey> however...
[21:12] <popey> that's for one video in one resolution
[21:12] <popey> imagine one video in two formats at three resolutions
[21:12] <popey> thats 6 pages to create, plus a main page
[21:13] <popey> you'll get the idea if you go to the site and start looking at the content of the links on the right
[21:13] <popey> the rss feeds
[21:13] <popey> does that answer your question?
[21:13] <imbrandon> heh i would spend the type to do some python/php code to automate it :P
[21:13] <imbrandon> yup
[21:13] <popey> I would _love_ to streamline that process
[21:13] <popey> yes!
[21:13] <popey> I would love that
[21:13] <popey> please, help!
[21:13] <popey> :)
[21:13] <popey> I can't code
[21:13] <popey> we have already had a submission for a script which automates the video encoding
[21:13] <popey> and that's just fantastic, a great help
[21:14] <popey> but yes, some way of just taking a video, and putting it in a folder, then pressing a button.. going to sleep and finding in 3 hours that it's all encoded, uploaded and pages created would be my dream
[21:14] <popey> I'll take you up on that offer imbrandon, thanks
[21:14] <imbrandon> np
[21:15] <popey> < giftnudel> QUESTION: Do you need to convert everything at home and need to upload it?
[21:15] <popey> no, i could upload the master video and encode on a server somewhere - that would be better - yes
[21:15] <popey> I have tried this but had issues compiling ffmpeg on my server in the datacentre
[21:15] <popey> i need time to look at that
[21:15] <popey> but it's a great suggestion!
[21:15] <popey> < evarlast> QUESTION: what about a video codec made for screencaps like TechSmith's used by Camtasia?
[21:16] <popey> I am aware of camtasia only by name and their adverts in the labrats podcast (which I like)
[21:16] <popey> i don't know about formats
[21:16] <popey> however...
[21:16] <popey> generally
[21:16] <popey> GENERALLY
[21:16] <popey> proprietary software uses evil closed formats
[21:16] <popey> I'll say no more than that :)
[21:16] <popey>  < kostkon> QUESTION: I would like to ask if there is the requirement that the desktop shown in the videos must use the default theme.
[21:16] <popey> OOO!
[21:17] <popey> Great question!
[21:17] <popey> technically no, of course not..
[21:17] <popey> ..however..
[21:17] <popey> Imagine you are Joe Public, and you've never seen ubuntu before.. you watch a video which shows how to do something..
[21:17] <popey> ..and that video doesn't match what you have in front of you
[21:17] <popey> That would (in my opinion) possibly make people think twice about whether they trust what they see as a "real world expereicen"
[21:18] <popey> *experience
[21:18] <popey> I always try to make screencasts so that they look as you would find them
[21:18] <popey> one of the things I found with screencasts on youtube / google (there are loads).. is that they were inconsistent
[21:18] <popey> everyone has their own theme on their desktop
[21:18] <popey> and that's _great_
[21:19] <popey> we all love to customise our desktops
[21:19] <popey> but I'm not convinced it's wise for new users to see that
[21:19] <popey> once they figure out how to theme their machine they will be comfortable seeing something different in a video
[21:19] <popey> IMO
[21:19] <popey> IMHO
[21:19] <popey>  < giftnudel> QUESTION: Should the language then be english or fit the commentary?
[21:19] <popey> Glad you asked!
[21:20] <popey> We have subtitles (captions) in English..
[21:20] <popey> these were transcribed from the videos by some incredibly patient people
[21:20] <popey> they are then translated
[21:20] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/TranslationStatus  <-- see
[21:20] <popey> these subtitles work in totem, vlc etc
[21:20] <popey> and google video
[21:20] <popey> so that helps people who can't understand by british accent
[21:21] <popey> but of course doesn't help where the GUI is all in English.. I can't do much about that
[21:21] <popey> we have also had offers to audio "dub" the screencasts into other lanaguages
[21:21] <popey> http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-3703943824957072518&hl=en-GB
[21:21] <popey> there you go - one that has english video - french audio
[21:22] <giftnudel> thanks
[21:22] <popey> so in a word "no" the audio doesn't _have_ to fit the video, but that's how traditionally they have been made
[21:22] <popey> < spd106> QUESTION: Any plans for official intro/outro/background music?
[21:22] <popey> heh, great question!
[21:22] <popey> (I say that a lot, sorry)
[21:22] <popey> here's the problem... licensing
[21:22] <popey> well, part of the problem
[21:22] <imbrandon> lol
[21:22] <popey> the other part is that you will _never_ find some music that everyone likes
[21:22] <popey> [FACT]
[21:23] <popey> my friends like death metal
[21:23] <popey> I quite like electronic music
[21:23] <popey> (and i hate death metal)
[21:23] <popey> so there is an instant problem there
[21:23] <popey> i did actually find some music that I very nearly paid the license fee on..
[21:23] <popey> I got it from one of the nice places linked in Rhthmbox
[21:24] <popey> cant remember if it was jamendo or magnatune
[21:24] <popey> _ANYWAY_
[21:24] <popey> yes, I've thought about it..
[21:24] <popey> if someone would like to make some music for us that would be lovely
[21:24] <popey> but be prepared for me to say I hate it :)
[21:25] <popey> FYI the two tracks I found are...
[21:25] <pwnguin> just use vivaldi ;)
[21:25] <popey> Where has our love gone, and the other was Computer Control - both by a band called "The Bots"
[21:25] <popey> ok, moving on to the rest of the stuff I had typed up :)
[21:26] <popey> The process for creating screencasts is documented... badly.
[21:26] <popey> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/RecordingScreencasts
[21:26] <popey> this page needs some love
[21:26] <popey> I have been asked by numerous people (including sabdfl) to create a "How to screencast" screencast
[21:26] <popey> and I'm working on that now
[21:26] <popey> It's a monster multi-part job which covers everything I do to make a screencast, plus some alternatives along the way.
[21:27] <popey> Which leads onto the obvious question of how do we make screencasts.
[21:27] <popey> For me it goes like this..
[21:27] <popey> note that others do things differently, and that's fine, I'm a big fan of choice, it's the end result that's important.
[21:27] <popey> For me what's also important is "Eating our own dogfood" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eat_one's_own_dog_food
[21:27] <popey> in that I try to only use free software to make the screencasts even if the content might have non free stuff in it (like skype).
[21:27] <popey> (I don't _actually_ _eat_ dog food you understand)
[21:28] <popey> (we only have cats)
[21:28] <popey> (no to catfood too)
[21:28] <popey> If you want to contribute to the screencast team but want to use some other software, that's GREAT!
[21:28] <popey> I flat out don't care what you use, so long as the subject is Ubuntu, and the screencast is cool!
[21:28] <popey> Ok, so there are at least two ways of doing this, here's the traditional way I did it:-
[21:28] <popey> . Use qemu to create a virtual machine running Ubuntu (you could of course use vmware or the packaged virtual box, but as I try to only use free software for this, I use qemu+kqemu, or kvm)
[21:29] <popey> . Use xvidcap to capture the qemu window to an MPEG2 video
[21:29] <popey> (I use xvidcap, however other video capture software is available)
[21:29] <popey> . Use OpenOffice.org to create some funky titles which I also record with xvidcap
[21:29] <popey> (in OO.o you can do nice slidey transitions, fades and stuff - and fake a desktop background)
[21:30] <popey> (so it _looks_ like a screencast, but it really is just a video of an oo.o presentation)
[21:30] <popey> this is a major pain!
[21:30] <popey> we don't have a decent video editor with titling built in under linux..
[21:30] <popey> that makes me sad :(
[21:30] <popey> . Use avidemux to edit together the titles and cut bits out of the video (like where an install takes ages or I mess the screen up :) )
[21:30] <popey> . Use totem to play the video and make sure it's okay
[21:30] <popey> . Use totem to play the video _again_ whilst I..
[21:30] <popey> . Use audacity (or ardour) to record me talking
[21:31] <popey> . Use avidemux to merge the audio and video
[21:31] <popey> . Use ffmpeg to re-encode the video to various formats
[21:31] <popey> . Use scp to upload to the server
[21:31] <popey> . Use my hands to grab a beer from the fridge
[21:31] <popey> so thats qemu, avidemux, audacity, ffmpeg, totem... all free software!
[21:31] <popey> yay!
[21:31] <popey> but it takes _some_ _time_ to do
[21:31] <popey> :(
[21:32] <popey> if someone like techsmith open sourced camtasia I'd probably use it in an instant
[21:32] <popey> but they wont
[21:32] <popey> well, not before Satan ice skates to work
[21:32] <popey> ok, so that's one way of doing it
[21:32] <popey> however you'll notice that running your desktop and qemu with _another_ whole machine in, can be pretty resource intensive
[21:33] <popey> _then_ you have the screencast software on top
[21:33] <popey> I do this on a 2.6GHz dual core 2GB machine...
[21:33] <popey> and xvidcap _still_ drops frames! :O
[21:33] <popey> however... there are other options
[21:33] <popey> recordmydesktop is very nice, easy to use, and less resource intensive than xvidcap, so I might switch to that
[21:33] <popey> only pain is it records to ogg (yes that's a pain)
[21:34] <popey> because the decent video editors wont touch ogg, so you have an extra bit of video conversion to do to allow the video editors to manipulate them
[21:34] <popey> I am willing to listen to anyone who has better ways of doing this
[21:34] <popey> however I have been playing with pretty much every tool there is for about 2 years
[21:35] <popey> I'll come to the questions in a mo, only a few more lines of copy/paste :)
[21:35] <popey> so.. I said there was another way...
[21:35] <popey> The other way..
[21:35] <popey> . Create a second user on the main computer I use
[21:35] <popey> . Switch to that user at the terminal "sudo su - otheruser"
[21:35] <popey> . Run VNC server as that user "vncserver :1 -geometry 1280x720 -depth 24"
[21:35] <popey> . As my main user, vnc to the local machine, desktop 1, "vncviewer localhost:1"
[21:35] <popey> . Use xvidcap to record the vnc client window
[21:35] <popey> Benefit of that is that it reduces the overall load on the machine making it much easier to record.
[21:36] <popey> The downside is that you can only record whatever you have on your local machine, so if you were running feisty and wanted to record gutsy, you couldn't (using that second method).
[21:36]  * popey scrolls back to find some questions
[21:36] <popey>   * imbrandon votes for a jono bacon metal track for the intro :)
[21:36]  * popey votes not
[21:36] <popey> :)
[21:36] <popey> eek, I have to share a plane with him tomorrow
[21:36] <imbrandon> heh
[21:37] <popey>  < DShepherd> QUESTION: Any plans for links to your screencast to be in built into the help system?
[21:37] <popey> yes!
[21:37] <DShepherd> when? hardy?
[21:37] <popey> https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/screencasts-in-ubuntu
[21:37] <popey> see that spec :)
[21:37] <popey> I hope to push it at UDS next week
[21:37] <giftnudel> excellent!
[21:37] <popey> whether that's inside the help docuemntation or a separate viewer I jsut don't know
[21:38] <popey> but yes, it would be neat to be able to press a button in Ubuntu and get a video popup showing you how to do stuff
[21:38] <popey> not long 30 min videos
[21:38] <popey> short sharp, 1-2 min things
[21:38] <popey> maybe even shorter depending on contenxt
[21:38] <pwnguin> via the internet?
[21:38] <popey> maybe
[21:38] <popey> maybe apt-gettable
[21:38] <popey> who knows :)
[21:38] <spd106> Like on ubuntu-clips?
[21:38] <popey> yeah, exactly like that
[21:38] <popey> need to be small due to limited bandwidth
[21:39] <popey> and nobody wants 20GB of video on their machine
[21:39] <popey> well..
[21:39] <popey> not _that_ kind of video
[21:39] <popey> ahem
[21:39] <popey> moving on
[21:39] <popey>  < DShepherd> QUESTION: any plans on making a screencast on how to make a screencast?
[21:39] <popey> yes, working on it now
[21:39] <popey>  < spd106> QUESTION: When's the MoS DVD coming out? Will it be on HD-DVD or Blue-ray?
[21:39] <popey> that would be cool
[21:39] <popey> however....
[21:39] <popey> < DShepherd> QUESTION: When will the MoS Screencast be finished?
[21:39] <popey> that's a pre-req I think :)
[21:40] <popey> When it's finished
[21:40] <popey> it was a mad plan in the first place :)
[21:40] <popey> other stuff got in the way.. however I still call it the "month of screencasts" becasue there will be 30 of them - making a calendar month...
[21:40] <popey> .so what if it takes 20 years!
[21:40] <popey> < giftnudel> QUESTION: Whats Mos?
[21:41] <popey> http://screencasts.ubuntu.com/MoS2007
[21:41] <popey> "Ubuntu Month of Screencasts is a mad plan concocted by the Screencast Team to produce one full length screencast per day for the whole of one month. That month is September 2007."
[21:41]  * popey notes it's near the end of Oct
[21:41] <popey>  < desertc> popey: http://www.magnatune.com/artists/thebots   -- seen The Bots availability on Magnatune?  They have OGG format and everything there.
[21:41] <popey> yes, that's the ones
[21:41] <popey> I have the tracks all cut down into nice slices.. but I had this horrid overriding fear that everyone would hate it
[21:41] <popey> so i dropped it
[21:41] <popey> :(
[21:42] <popey> < pwnguin> QUESTION: what are the sources of dropped frames?
[21:42] <popey> CPU and/or IO I guess
[21:42] <popey>  < kostkon> QUESTION: what about audio and video bitrates? Or do we just choose anything as long as it produces a good end result? I am asking this because "highly-bitrated" videos will
[21:42] <popey>                     possibly not play well in low to middle end PCs.
[21:42] <popey> erk, sorry
[21:42] <popey> yes, the master video is a high bitrate one
[21:43] <popey> I tend to use 400Kb/s or 800Kb/s when I re-encode them
[21:43] <popey> depending on size
[21:43] <popey> some of the bigger (1280x720) ones need higher bitrates (funnily enough)
[21:43] <popey> we need high quality master videos thou
[21:43] <popey>  < pwnguin> QUESTION: in a longer term view, do you see any potential between creating screencasts and testing desktop UI? I think there was a session on tuesday about testing GUI tools
[21:44] <popey> i have no view on that, sorry
[21:44] <popey> however...
[21:44] <popey> I would like to throw a spec together for a "proper" screencasting app
[21:44] <popey> one that nested a desktop in a window xnest style
[21:44] <popey> and had nice easy recording options
[21:44] <popey> titling
[21:44] <popey> audio dubbing
[21:44] <popey> subtitling
[21:45] <popey> basically put together istanbul, recordmydesktop, xnest, jokosher , and some titling thing, and avidemux and maybe ffmpeg
[21:45] <popey> into one almighty screencasting app to `sudo killall proprietary-screencasting-app`
[21:46] <popey>  < mzungu> QUESTION: has anyone tried Ubuntu Studio - which clains to be optimised for audio and video?
[21:46] <popey> I'm not convinced it would give that much of a boost, but I'd be happy to try it
[21:46] <popey> ok, one more thing I'd like to say..
[21:46] <popey> is a massive thank you! to the people who have contributed screencasts, contributed transcriptions, subtitles, dubs and so on.
[21:47] <popey> it's really helped
[21:47] <popey> (and thanks to canonical for hosting):)
[21:47] <popey> I think I missed a question
[21:47] <michaelramm> Thanks PopeY!!
[21:47] <popey>  < giftnudel> QUESTION: Is there a list of screencasts people can get started with?
[21:47] <popey> that one
[21:47] <popey> kinda
[21:47] <popey> there is a messy list:- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ScreencastTeam/Requests
[21:48] <popey> which I think we are going to re-work / retire
[21:48] <popey> if you have any requests for screencasts....
[21:48] <popey> http://screencasts.ubuntu.com/Requests
[21:48] <popey> if there is something you would like to see - do what it says there ^
[21:48] <giftnudel> This is a nice start!
[21:48] <popey>  < pwnguin> QUESTION: any plan to screencast something console based, like "how to play nethack" or "vim for emacs-philes"?
[21:48] <popey> tricky
[21:49] <popey> i am a lover of the console - i use mutt and irssi every day - but for newbies I don't think it's appropriate..
[21:49] <popey> that said..
[21:49] <popey> would be nice if we could have "expert corner" on the site
[21:49] <popey> with some "advanced" stuff
[21:49] <popey> (yeah, "advanced" means different things to different people)
[21:49] <popey> but you know what I mean :)
[21:50] <popey>  < harkonen> QUESTION: is there a prioritization scheme for the screencasts waiting to be recorded? like which one's most important or whatver.
[21:50] <popey> harkonen! the man!
[21:50] <harkonen> aw shucks
[21:50] <popey> out of nowhere some xubuntu screencasts appeared, thanks totally to harkonen !
[21:50] <popey> awesome work dude
[21:50] <popey> not really, I'd say we discuss prioritisation on the list
[21:51] <popey> basically if it hasn't been covered and you think it's someething a newbie woudl be interested in, then that's a good target
[21:51] <popey> I would like people to discuss what they _plan_ to do first though
[21:51] <popey> to make sure we don't have any duplication of work
[21:51] <popey> and we're working in the same direction
[21:51] <popey>  < giftnudel> QUESTION: What about an interactive screencast where people can try out without killing everything?
[21:51] <popey> that's an awesome idea
[21:51] <popey> how about...
[21:51] <popey> a DVD on which there's a load of videos and a virtual machine image
[21:52] <popey> you copy the vm image onto your windows pc, then stick the dvd in your dvd player (or pc) and watch the tutorials
[21:52] <popey> that would be quite neat!
[21:52] <popey> quick! patent it!
[21:52] <giftnudel> :)
[21:52] <popey> no, don't do that
[21:52] <giftnudel> well it's prior art now anyway
[21:52] <popey>  < evarlast> QUESTION: What about resurecting pyvnc2swf instead of using xvidcap
[21:52] <popey> swf == flash == evil
[21:52] <popey> kinda
[21:52] <popey> :)
[21:52] <popey> in the nicest possible way :)
[21:53] <popey> the issue there is that once you make your master in some oddball format like swf, you have the devils own job converting it to other stuff
[21:53] <popey> that's why I use xvidcap because the master I make is MPEG2.. which pretty much anything can read
[21:53] <popey> < go2dell> QUESTION:  The other *buntus seem to be poorly represented.  Kubuntu and Xubuntu each have one lonely screencast each.  Is there a plan to translate the existing screencasts  into *buntu versions, where appropriate?
[21:53] <popey> a very good point
[21:54] <popey> there is a good reason for this..
[21:54] <popey> I made most of the screencasts
[21:54] <popey> (not to belittle the fantastic work done by all the other contributors)
[21:54] <popey> and the fact is I just don't know kubuntu or xubuntu
[21:54] <popey> I like to talk about what I know about
[21:54] <popey> I feel uncomfortable teaching someone something that I don't know
[21:54] <popey> so basically i'd like other people to contribute more
[21:55] <popey> stdin: I am looking at you :)
[21:55] <popey> harkonen: I am looking at you too :)
[21:55]  * stdin runs
[21:55] <popey> you get the idea
[21:55] <popey> I have a kubuntu virtual machine ready to go
[21:55] <stdin> I will get around to it, really
[21:55]  * harkonen is writing a script now...
[21:55] <popey> but I just don't know it, sorry
[21:55] <popey> yay
[21:55] <popey> < go2dell> I guess the correct answer to my question is:  if you want it done, do it yourself, right?  :-D
[21:55] <popey> file a bug report!
[21:56] <popey>  < spd106> QUESTION: Any there any plans for Edubuntu screencasts targeted at kids/teachers?
[21:56] <popey> now THAT would rock!
[21:56] <popey> teachers are often people who don't have time to sit and fiddle with computer software
[21:56] <popey> they need help in teaching the new stuff
[21:56] <popey> get on that! :)
[21:56] <popey>  < evarlast> QUESTION: follow up: pyvnc2swf is swf in name only. it supports a number of output formats and it may be easier to use than xvidcap.
[21:56] <popey> O RLY?
[21:56] <popey> didn't know that
[21:56] <popey> will take another look
[21:57] <popey> oh, oh, I remember why I stopped using it
[21:57] <popey> it would crash when I opened firefox inside the vnc window
[21:57] <popey> *boggle*
[21:57] <popey> certain apps inside the vnc window would blow pyvnc2swf up
[21:57] <popey> very odd
[21:57] <popey>  < go2dell> stdin: I'm a Kubuntu user, so I guess I should get started playing with screencast production... in my spare time.
[21:57] <popey> that would rock
[21:57] <popey> right.. any more for any more?
[21:58] <popey> we're pretty much out of time
[21:58] <popey> thanks for some fantastic questions.. it's given me some stuff to think about
[21:58] <popey> remember.. we do need help
[21:58] <popey> suggestions are always welcome
[21:58] <popey> I think that's me done.
[21:58] <popey> cheers
[21:58] <giftnudel> That was very nice, thanks
[21:58] <popey> thanks
[21:58] <spd106> Thanks popey
[21:59]  * popey goes for a lie down
[21:59] <giftnudel> Now I feel like I should do a screencast
[21:59] <nixternal> popey: you rock!
[21:59] <mzungu> popey, thanks for the interesting session
[21:59] <DShepherd> popey, you reggae!
[21:59]  * DShepherd is a Jamaican
[21:59] <popey> heh
[22:00] <go2dell> popey: you ska
[22:00] <popey> bo!
[22:00] <DShepherd> lol
[22:00] <nixternal> OK, now I can go :)
[22:00]  * nixternal wonders how long it will be until he notices
[22:01] <marius> Hi Richard! :)
[22:01] <Jucato> no the topic hasn't been set yet... still not your time :P
[22:01] <nixternal> howdy marius
[22:01] <huwnet> @now
[22:01] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: October 25 2007, 21:01:21 - Next meeting: Kernel Team in 4 days
[22:01] <nixternal> cool, I am going to head to taco bell really quick then
[22:01] <nixternal> thanks popey :)
[22:01] <nixternal> 16:01:05 [   ajmitch] nixternal: you're bad
[22:01] <nixternal> pwnd
[22:02] <imbrandon> time for some KDE love!
[22:02] <nixternal> OK, so how many are we looking at this morning, afternoon, or evening for Kubuntu love?
[22:02]  * imbrandon raises palm
[22:02] <nixternal> I am going to do the patented, super high-technology imbrandon speed talk
[22:02] <Jucato> early morning.. 5am... raising hand! :)
[22:03] <nixternal> that means, little talking, and more of a Q&A session...because who really wants to hear, or rather, see me copy and paste text causing you to fall asleep
[22:03] <nixternal> I SAID WHO IS HERE FOR THE KUBUNTU TALK!?!?!?!!?!
[22:03] <nixternal> don't make me do the Ballmer monkey dance
[22:03]  * mzungu here!
[22:03] <stdin> ME!!!!!11
[22:03] <Jucato> that would be fun :P
[22:03] <nixternal> DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS! DEVELOPERS!
[22:03]  * huwnet raises hand
[22:04]  * ubunturos raised his hand and shouts "ME"
[22:04] <nixternal> now we are talking
[22:04]  * nalioth hands nixternal a banana
[22:04] <marius> Richard, can we ask question here? or in -chat ? :)
[22:04]  * nixternal kicks nalioth in the shin - no klines please
[22:04] <mneptok>  /kicgk nixternal GIVE IT UP FOR MEEEEEEEEE!
[22:04] <nixternal> marius: I say we rock and roll right here...ask away whatever you want to know
[22:04] <marius> good :D
[22:04]  * jpatrick raises his hand, but might not be around for long :(
[22:04] <pwnguin> QUESTION: GNOME has a mobile edition, and qt is known for it's embedded toolkit. how's KDE fare on slower machines?
[22:04] <nixternal> I am lucky to have Jucato rocking it here as well...he knows more stuff than every God put together
[22:05] <Jucato> O.o
[22:05] <marius> well, first of all.. I LOVE KDE!, Second of all.... making Dolphin as the default file manager was not a good idea in my opinion. I know it's so popular, but it's not productive for me :) Now, every time when I install kubuntu, I have to sudo dpkg -P dolphin so I can use Konqueror. Can you do something about that in 8.04?
[22:05] <nixternal> pwnguin: whoa, you rockin' the good ones already!
[22:05] <pwnguin> heh
[22:05] <nixternal> good question though
[22:06] <nixternal> I can honesty say I have played with KDE on a Zaurus, and it was whicked fast...seen Qt love on a Greenphone and it was hot, and lets not forget Slax, which is a KDE based super-fast, slim-lined KDE distro (Slackware based)
[22:06] <marius> I have some great questions for you tonight :D
[22:06] <luca> hi everyone :) myself, I got only one or two, but I fear they are big ;)
[22:06] <pwnguin> imbrandon: i  hope you were listening ;)
[22:06] <imbrandon> i was
[22:06] <nixternal> pwnguin: also, there have been footprint benchmarks between KDE, Gnome, Xfce, and Fluxbox I believe...the order from fastest/smallest overload was 1) Flux, 2) Xfce, 3) KDE, and 4) Gnome
[22:07] <ubunturos> QUESTION: are there internal optimizations for KDE under Kubuntu?
[22:07] <nixternal> marius: as for Dolphin, you and I are together...well I won't say "not a good idea" really, because the nay sayers such as us, are way smaller than the crowd that loves it
[22:07] <mzungu> QUESTION: i heard that main menu => System Settings is problematic, and should use kcontrol directly - is this true? and if so why?
[22:07] <marius> heh
[22:08]  * Jucato +1 to nay sayers
[22:08] <jjj543k3> I don't know what your definition of old equiptment is but i'm running on a 1300mhz 512 mb of ram laptop and kde is way faster than gnome or for that matter the original winxp i used to use but that is my opinion, ps what's going on on this channel?
[22:08]  * jpatrick too
[22:08] <nixternal> with Kubuntu, we give you flat out KDE, optimized no more than any other distro, but tweaked and made to look pretty just for you!
[22:08] <imbrandon> questions to #ubuntu-classroom-chat please, so that can be queued up
[22:08] <nixternal> mzungu: no that is not true...I haven't used KControl in a long time, and I was one of the first people to go "System what? no way, KCONTROL OWNS YOU"
[22:09] <nixternal> imbrandon: open session homey
[22:09] <imbrandon> ok ...
[22:09] <imbrandon> QUESTION : i want to hear about kde 4.0 hardy live cd, this will be in addition to the normal kde 3.5.x LTS release correct ? but not LTS support ? am i right ? same release date and built in the DC just the same ?
[22:09] <marius> nixternal: How about some patches for Konqueror that allows us to close tabs with middle mouse click and to remove those very annoying "Access Keys" (in Akregator also)?
[22:09] <nixternal> shoot and fire, just go a little slow so my keyboard doesn't go up in flames
[22:09] <nixternal> KDE 4 will not be a Hardy Live CD
[22:09] <nixternal> KDE 4 will be a Gutsy Live CD!!!!!
[22:10] <nixternal> why? KDE 4 - end of December...end of December == barely half way through the Hardy cycle
[22:10] <nixternal> KDE 4 Live CD will definitely be when 4 is released, but my plans, and I believe our plans is to at least generate a Live CD, such as an RC release prior to final release
[22:10] <pwnguin> kubuntu plans to release a 7.12?
[22:10] <imbrandon> will Riddell be helping get this built in the DC and put on possibly ports.ubuntu.com or kubuntu.org for all arches ?
[22:11] <nixternal> marius: you can map that in the Konqueror settings
[22:11] <Divilinux> hy all
[22:11] <nixternal> oh wait, no you can't
[22:11] <jjj543k3> how do you set the konqueror user agent to something other than what is there? The options are all for ancient browsers like firefox 1.5, which is retarded, secondairly is there a way to completely remove the default user agent, I never ever want it to send the knoqueror user agent I want it to permanently send the latest version of firefox or for that matter ie7.
[22:11] <nixternal> marius: sorry...That would be a good idea...if you could, file a wishlist bug so we can look at it
[22:11] <marius> great
[22:11] <stdin> (slightly random) QUESTION: How would you describe the relationship Kubuntu has with upstream KDE?
[22:11] <nixternal> imbrandon: dunno...Gutsy and Hardy will have it, maybe Feisty if popcon is still showing a large use possibly
[22:12] <nixternal> stdin: freakin' amazing!
[22:12] <Jucato> nixternal, marius: /me already has a patch for that first one
[22:12] <nixternal> I mean, they gave me SVN access, made me a Dot Editor, and trust my patches and documentation :)
[22:12] <stdin> so the love flows both ways? ;)
[22:12] <nixternal> Jucato: get it in, talk to Riddell about that one...that is a great patch to have
[22:12] <nixternal> of course
[22:12] <marius> Jucato: send it to Richard that :)
[22:13]  * Jucato tried to send it upstream first... too late though
[22:13] <marius> I can patch those things myself, but would be great to have them default
[22:13] <nixternal> Also, KUbuntu is also trying to not just love upstream, but also left and right stream with other distributions...some we have worked closely with in the past are Mandriva and openSUSE to name a couple
[22:13] <Divilinux> i have a question about Dolphin
[22:13] <nixternal> Divilinux: go for it!
[22:13] <Divilinux> the possibility to handle more kio_slaves
[22:14] <nixternal> Divilinux: ++++1 :)
[22:14] <Divilinux> or build simply kio_slave such in konqueror too
[22:14] <nixternal> Divilinux: I am sure those will be ironed out during Hardy
[22:14] <Divilinux> of course i mean on kde four..
[22:14] <Jucato> depends on which kio_slaves those are... for sure not the http* ones :)
[22:15] <nixternal> oh, you can guarantee all kio_slaves that do not lead to html will more than likely be easily incorporated
[22:15] <nixternal> Jucato: :)
[22:15] <marius> nixternal: Here's a good one! Are you ready? :) Can you include the Domino KDE Style in Kubuntu? If not default (and trust me that at least 85% of the users will simply LOVE Kubuntu with Domino... it happened with Linux Mint 2.2 KDE, after my suggestion) at least as a package, and then users can select it. If you'll include some default themes for Domino. will also be nice, because the default style kinda sucks. The Milk style for Domino is
[22:15] <marius> awesome!
[22:15] <Divilinux> actually we need to port kio_sysinfo to dolphin
[22:15] <nixternal> ie. help:/, apt:/ <-unless we can get that bad boy TEXT
[22:15] <Divilinux> so we don't know how to build this kio for dolphin
[22:15] <Jucato> Divilinux: hm... that would involve Dolphin displaying HTML... I think that's a no no
[22:16] <nixternal> marius: I will add that to my "take a look at" list...can you provide me a link so I can see the licensing involved
[22:16] <Divilinux> ok..thanks for answer..;)
[22:16] <Jucato> nixternal, marius: jpatrick has worked on that already
[22:16] <nosrednaekim> nixternal: whats going on in here this time? just chat?
[22:16] <nixternal> jeesh, he is back for less than a week and he is kicking arse
[22:16] <nixternal> nosrednaekim: OPEN FORUMS!
[22:16] <Jucato> "Open Season on nixternal"
[22:16] <nixternal> why spew something written down, when we can shoot to our users straight from the heart!
[22:17] <jpatrick> marius: kde-style-domino is in REVU
[22:17] <nixternal> also, I deleted my original talk because I was planning on this talk :)
[22:17] <nixternal> jpatrick: slow down, leave me some work this cycle! all I have right now is bitlbee complete :)
[22:18] <jpatrick> mwuahahaha
[22:18] <nosrednaekim> Hardy is "return of jpatrick"
[22:18] <marius> nixternal: http://img177.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshot153626rc8.png a screenshot of the Domino style tweaked by me
[22:19] <nixternal> oh, that's nice
[22:19] <Jucato> QUESTION: Does Kubuntu have any definite long-term goals (aside from being the best KDE distro evar!)? or how about goals for Hardy?
[22:19] <nixternal> I think that is the first I have ever looked at it
[22:19] <jpatrick> marius: send me a patch of that
[22:19] <imbrandon> Jucato, msotly those are decided at UDS
[22:19] <nixternal> Hardy Goals -> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyCatchup
[22:20]  * ubunturos wonders, KDE to MAC interface?
[22:20] <marius> yeah... I knew people will love Domino
[22:20] <nixternal> our long term goals are pretty much being the best distro, and of course being a rock solid KDE 4 distro
[22:20] <nixternal> so for Hardy, Kubuntu plans to play a little catch up with what Ubuntu has done the past cycle or 2
[22:21] <nixternal> Unfortunately we do have to play catchup, make everything a little less bug ridden, and a lot more stable for Hardy
[22:21] <nosrednaekim> domino looks like KDE4
[22:21] <imbrandon> ubunturos, we work on kde for darwin in #kde-dawin ( OS X )
[22:21] <nixternal> remember, Kubuntu has about 1/100th what Ubuntu has when it comes to development
[22:21] <ubunturos> imbrandon: umm, there's a theme called baghira to do the same, your efforts (just curious)
[22:21] <Jucato> nixternal: want me throw in the Q I threw at sabdfl? :)
[22:22] <nixternal> and I can say, I have come >.< that close to compiling KDE 4 on Windows (or Winblows cuz it annoys imbrandon) :)
[22:22] <nixternal> Jucato: shoot!
[22:22] <marius> nixternal: http://www.kde-look.org/content/show.php/Domino+Kubuntu+package?content=52864
[22:22] <Jucato> QUESTION: Other KDE distros are now gettng a lot better. And users have been comparing Ubuntu and Kubuntu features a lot. Do you expect Kubuntu to be able to stand up to that level of quality, and if not, are there plans to address that?
[22:22] <nixternal> Jucato: I would suggest that you ask sabdfl that question!!!!
[22:22] <nixternal> gahaha
 i think Riddell is the best person to answer that!
[22:23] <Jucato> bwahahah!!
[22:23] <nixternal> I had to do it
[22:23] <Divilinux> QUESTION: how about great kbluetooth?..re-writing is pretty good..but there's some problems..
[22:23] <Jucato> youreally came prepared :D
[22:23] <imbrandon> ubunturos, no i mean actualy compiling kde4 on OSX
[22:23] <nixternal> all KDE distros are blowing up...SUSE is kicking arse, taking names, and making strides
[22:23] <ubunturos> imbrandon: ah, ok. My bad
[22:23] <nixternal> as many of your know, PCLOS has become the #1 distro on Distro(we don't cheat much)Watch
[22:23] <marius> Jucato: check your e-mail
[22:23] <nixternal> and it is a KDE distro
[22:23] <nixternal> been a while since that has happened
[22:23]  * Jucato checks
[22:24] <nixternal> Kubuntu will strive to get better, but we will keep our software freedom philosophy going, unlike PCLinuxOS
[22:24] <nosrednaekim> Kubuntu is on #6 in the past week BTW ;)
[22:24] <jpatrick> Jucato: err, he meant me
[22:24] <ubunturos> nixternal: but LF reports more than 30% usage of *buntu :)
[22:24] <Jucato> fine
[22:24] <nixternal> Jucato: in order for Kubuntu to continue and stand up, we will definitely need more help
[22:24] <Jucato> yay help!
[22:25] <marius> what's REVU ?
[22:25] <jpatrick> I am voluteering to mentor anyone who wants to work on KDE packages
[22:25] <nixternal> Divilinux: I am sure that will be done right for Hardy...we have been working hand-in-hand with upstream with bluetooth stuff
[22:25] <imbrandon> jpatrick, me also , anyone intrested see me or jpatrick in #kubuntu-devel
[22:25] <marius> nixternal: if you put Domino in Kubuntu, i'll make you a statue :D
[22:25] <nixternal> imbrandon, jpatrick, don't forget about me! :)
[22:25] <nixternal> wow!
[22:25] <marius> :))
[22:26] <Divilinux> nixternal: i've always loved it, but recently i can browse file by konqui..and not with framework
[22:26] <nixternal> wait, jpatrick already did, I will go ahead and upload it before him though, I could always use a statue :)
[22:26] <marius> nixternal: if you want my Milk patch for Domnio I'll send it to you by e-mail :)
[22:27] <marius> lol
[22:27] <nixternal> I am old sKool KDE...Plastik only here :)
[22:27] <jpatrick> marius: already in package
[22:27]  * jpatrick is that fast
[22:27] <Jucato> plastik ftw!! (but I like Domino)
[22:27] <nixternal> I do too Jucato...that does look like KDE 4
[22:27] <Jucato> or OS X.. depends on who you ask.. :P
[22:27] <marius> nixternal: A patch or fix for the GTK-QT Style will also be nice, because the scrollbar in Firefox and GIMP (other apps too) is very ugly. I know it's a button to fix the scrollbar for Firefox, but it doesn't work with Domino. Can this be fixed in 8.04? :)
[22:28] <nosrednaekim> depends on how you configure it...
[22:28] <marius> jpatrick: nice to hear that :)
[22:28]  * Jucato thinks about other questions...
[22:28] <nixternal> marius: I installed gtk-qt-engine and made it all purty
[22:28] <vocx> jpatrick, imbrandon are you willing to mentor the noobs that post in the Programming Forum? Some of them have been programming for years even if they are just in High School and are experts is Visual Basic. And they do not know what else to do with their haxor skillz.
[22:29] <nixternal> I had that same problem and it affected my Qt Jambi bindings for Eclipse, and Eclipse and Qt of all people told me how to fix it, and it fixed firefox as well
[22:29] <imbrandon> vocx, sure, you mean the ubuntu programing forums ?
[22:29] <jpatrick> vocx: VB? :|
[22:29] <ubunturos> nixternal: QUESTIONS: any plans to include few development tools on future Kubuntu versions?
[22:29] <jpatrick> what they need is a course in C++ :)
[22:29] <nosrednaekim> or python...
[22:29] <nixternal> vocx: if they can do VB, they can do c#, can pick up Python, and eventually learn c++, so of course we could mentor them as well...Only thing I would stress though is patience since we are a small, but amazing crew
[22:29] <ubunturos> and on Qt :)
[22:29] <imbrandon> fwiw gambas can compile MOST vb 6 apps and it uses QT
[22:30] <nosrednaekim> ubunturos: like which tools?
[22:30] <ubunturos> nosrednaekim: IDEs or compilers etc?
[22:30] <nixternal> ubunturos: more than likely not due to disc size, but I will not say never to that one
[22:30] <imbrandon> nixternal, jpatrick, vocx, fwiw gambas can compile MOST vb 6 apps and it uses QT
[22:30] <ubunturos> nixternal: ah
[22:30] <jpatrick> "I think we're the best" -- Riddell
[22:30] <nixternal> WE ARE THE BEST -- nixternal
[22:30] <nixternal> :)
[22:30] <nosrednaekim> don't matter what you THINK...
[22:31] <ubunturos> nixternal: how does knoppix get it?
[22:31] <stdin> ubunturos: probably because they don't have oo.o :p
[22:31] <marius> nixternal: but I have gtk-qt-engine and all the GTK apps have the scrollbar ugly :(
[22:31] <nixternal> I have no clue..I haven't looked at Knoppix in a few years
[22:31] <ubunturos> stdin: they do have OO
[22:31] <nixternal> marius: in system settings, check out the GTK stuff, I think I installed the clearlooks engine
[22:32] <nosrednaekim> yeah... is there any plan to enable gtk-qt theming by defualt?
[22:32] <stdin> ubunturos: really? I haven't used it in years and they didn't then
[22:32] <marius> nixternal: I have QT setup for my GTK apps
[22:32] <nixternal> OH, Knoppix doesn't have all of the kernel modules, so that could be a little bit as well
[22:32] <nixternal> marius: when this is over, I will let you know what my setup is so you can check it out
[22:32] <ubunturos> stdin: they do have it now
[22:32] <vocx> imbrandon, nixternal jpatrick you should recruit people in Programming Talk in ubuntuforums.org then. And I hope you have a lot of patience. Also what is the best IDE??? They need IDES, otherwise they skillz diminish.
[22:32] <marius> nixternal: thanks :)
[22:32] <jpatrick> vocx: please point the hopefuls to #kubuntu-devel and we'll get them sorted..
[22:32] <nixternal> vocx: lol
[22:33] <jpatrick> Kate FTW
[22:33] <nixternal> actually, vocx you have a good idea, I think we should be head hunting in there
[22:33] <ubunturos> nixternal: umm. I guess, it isn't some special compression algorithm that knoppix might be using
[22:33] <nixternal> I doubt it, because if they were, we would as well :) and so would every other distro
[22:33] <nixternal> marius: "Use another style:" I have Clearlooks
[22:33] <ubunturos> vocx: understand what's under the hood and then switch to the IDE ;)
[22:33] <mzungu> what about those of us who learned programming from Charles Babbage ;)
[22:34] <nixternal> hahahahaha
[22:34] <giftnudel_> Me as a gnome user will tell you that your plan to world domination by recruting will never work
[22:35] <Jucato> Me as a kde user will tell you that gnome's plan to stop our plan to world domination recruiting will never work :)
[22:35] <nixternal> woohah
[22:35] <imbrandon> ok no DE wars
[22:35] <marius> nixternal: I understand.... but I want QT to emulate the GTK apps
[22:35] <nixternal> if you don't have anything positive, then please go elsewhere, thanks
[22:35] <nixternal> ahh...then ya marius there will have to be some serious hacking, on Qt's side
[22:36] <giftnudel_> that wasn't meant to be insulting or start a flame war :)
[22:36] <marius> nixternal: and if I put QT... then all my GTK apps (Firefox, GIMP, Synaptic) are emulated with Domino.....only the scrollbar is ugly at corners
[22:36] <nosrednaekim> do these people that we are head hunting use kubuntu or ubuntu?
[22:36] <marius> nixternal: oki doki then :)
[22:36] <nixternal> nosrednaekim: we want to get the ones who are interested no doubt
[22:36] <vocx> ubunturos, "what's the closest thing to MSVC++ in Windows.... Kate? what's that? I want a click-and-compile-button"
[22:36] <nixternal> vocx: Eclipse
[22:36] <marius> The KDE desktop refresh sucks? Can this be fixed somehow? I mean, and I bet I am not the only one here with this problem, when I download stuff directly on my desktop (images and archives especially) sometimes they appear, someday they don't, or they have incomplete names.....and I know that the files are there because I can look at the desktop folder from Konqueror.
[22:37] <giftnudel_> I personally think that it's difficult to get people to work on your project long time
[22:37] <giftnudel_> but those that stay will surely be good :)
[22:37] <nixternal> can't say that I have experienced that marius since I don't like anything on my desktop..I will have to check it out though and see if there is something we can do about it
[22:37] <ubunturos> vocx: there's something called as Gambas similar to VB - and Qt toolkit for similar
[22:37] <nixternal> giftnudel_: that is true
[22:38] <nixternal> in all cases at that
[22:38] <nixternal> being a free software developer takes a lot of patience, the ability and the want to learn, and good burn-out prevention as well
[22:38] <ubunturos> vocx: though, you configure kate to compile on clicks or shortcuts
[22:38] <vocx> ubunturos, I know. But try explaining that to them.
[22:38] <giftnudel_> nixternal: I lack the last :)
[22:38] <nixternal> you and I both
[22:39] <marius> nixternal: it's not from Kubuntu.... don't get me wrong... It's from KDE.. and it's an old bug :( I use the desktop 10 hours per day in my work...
[22:39] <nixternal> giftnudel_: beer doesn't work anymore :)
[22:39] <ubunturos> vocx: get those who are *really* interested. :)
[22:39] <marius> nixternal: and another 4 @ home :D
[22:40] <nixternal> ubunturos and vocx: your conversation shows the lack for documentation always, and documentation is always a great way for new people to get their feet wet...that is how I started in 1994 by submitting docs to the Linux doc Project
[22:40] <nixternal> and with Kubuntu as well
[22:40] <ubunturos> nixternal: I fail to understand - how?
[22:40] <nixternal> Documentation can actually provide you the feeling that you are developing something, especially as a new/young developer...and it is quite trivial to learn
[22:41]  * ubunturos had quite a few submissions to documentation for KDE, which failed for unknown reasons :(
[22:41] <nixternal> ubunturos: if you document, that means you have to learn the application you are documenting, or in this case, the distro, and Linux, and the applications...so you tend to go behind the scenes and learn the little things that make development tick
[22:41] <ubunturos> nixternal: true.
[22:41] <Jucato> ubunturos: it would be great if you tried to find out why they failed :)
[22:41] <nixternal> after a while it is easy for you to start packaging, then creating small patches, and before you know it, you are a full fledged developer making millions!
[22:42] <nixternal> well, the millions might be out of the ballpark, but you get the idea :)
[22:42] <stdin> everyone can do me a HUGE favour, trawl wiki.ubuntu.com and help.ubuntu.com and add Kubuntu instructions to Gnome-centric pages, so I don't have to do it *every* time
[22:42] <ubunturos> Jucato: I couldn't - even after attempting to contact the developers
[22:42] <marius> nixternal: KGet, KCalc, KNemo, Konq-Kim, KFTPGrabber, KRename, Superkaramba can be installed by default in future versions? Some are very important (Kget for example)! Knemo provides those little internet monitors in the sys tray like Ubuntu desktop has:)
[22:42] <ubunturos> nixternal: right
[22:42] <nixternal> imbrandon: do you know how to work with Gambas well? I see a tutorial or something coming on that could possibly attract those types of developers
[22:42]  * Jucato votes for kget by default
[22:42] <nosrednaekim> yes... +1 for kget
[22:42] <marius> hehe
[22:43] <Jucato> marius: SpeedCrunch is there (for KCalc)
[22:43] <imbrandon> nixternal, sure, i can write one up for tomarrow
[22:43] <marius> Jucato: i HATE it
[22:43] <marius> :)
[22:43] <stdin> someone, anyone, help me out on the wiki pages. all you need is a launchpad account
[22:43] <marius> Jucato: Kcalc is more simple and productive!
[22:44] <nixternal> KGet +1, KCalc really don't care as I use Katapult for my calc, Konq-Kim when it decides to work (we need to fix that), KFTPGrabber isn't necessary with the ftp kio (that is what the core-devs will tell ya), KRename (check who the maintainer of that package is in Debian and Ubuntu...yup, you got it, me :) so I am all for it)
[22:44] <nosrednaekim> I see alot of Dev requests on the kubuntu-devel mailing list
[22:44] <nixternal> SuperKaramba I think should be in by default as well
[22:44] <nosrednaekim> no....
[22:44] <marius> yey!
[22:44] <nosrednaekim> -1 for superkramba
[22:44] <nixternal> don't say Conky
[22:44] <nixternal> LiquidWeather is the greatest widget/app ever!
[22:44] <nixternal> :)
[22:44]  * Jucato -1 SK, given the slight instability... unless we find very stable themes
[22:44] <vocx> I want to tell you that the single reason I did not install Kubuntu 6.06 in the first place was because the Live CD messed up the screen resolution and fonts, so it was impossible to install. Maybe it can still be fixed... I've been lazy.
[22:44] <nosrednaekim> I propose..... NOTHIN!
[22:45] <nixternal> it works great for me
[22:45] <nixternal> !works for me
[22:45] <ubotu> Common Sense: Just because you can, does not mean you should. Think before you do. "Works for me" does not mean it is ok. The latest version of everything is not always useful if you aim for stability.
[22:45] <marius> nixternal: I ONLY use Liquid Weather
[22:45] <nixternal> hehe
[22:45] <nixternal> marius: if SuperKaramba doesn't get in, the least I could do is at least document it as an option and of course show it off..which just gave me a new idea
[22:45] <marius> nixternal: cool :)
[22:46] <nixternal> vocx: Kubuntu 7.10 is the first distro to ever work from teh LiveCD with my 21" wide screen (no-name brand piece of junk)
[22:46] <Jucato> always show it off, and recommend high quality, stable, non-resource intesive themes
[22:46] <marius> nixternal: why do you say konq-kim doesn't work? I use it all day long...never had problems with it
[22:46] <nosrednaekim> !worksforme
[22:46] <ubotu> Common Sense: Just because you can, does not mean you should (and especially recommend to others). Think before you do. "Works for me" does not mean it is ok. The latest version of everything is not always useful if you aim for stability. Please see http://geekosophical.net/random/worksforme/
[22:47] <nixternal> I will have to look at it...I had a lot of problems with it in the past...there was a specific feature that I can't remember right now that I could never get to work
[22:47] <marius> ohh...ok
[22:47] <nixternal> imbrandon: groovy on the gambas stuff...didn't see ya up there, caught you in my irssi highlight winder
[22:47] <vocx> nixternal, about you commenting about documentation and then becoming a full developer, there was a nice thread in the forums about a programmer's job, essentially summarizing it to: "programmers aren't support guys and they shouldn't be working on documentation. How do you become a paid programmer in Free Software."
[22:48] <ubunturos> QUESTION: Is it usually best to submit docs (how-tos) to the K app developer or Kubuntu Developer ?
[22:48] <nixternal> vocx: you show me a programmer who works for a living and doesn't document, and I will show you the worst application in the world for its users
[22:48] <nixternal> they wouldn't teach docsys for a reason now would they :)
[22:48] <nixternal> err
[22:48] <nixternal> doxygen
[22:49] <marius> nixternal: K Menu Gnome (http://kde-apps.org/content/show.php/K+Menu+Gnome+(Debian+Package)?content=31031) is very useful application when you install Kubuntu over Ubuntu (like I do) as it makes a separate menu for all the GNOME apps and cleans and rearange all the item in KMenu... do you think it can be installed by default in future versions of Kubuntu?
[22:49] <ubunturos> marius: +1 for the question
[22:49] <marius> hehe
[22:49] <nosrednaekim> +1 for that!
[22:49] <marius> :D
[22:49] <nixternal> vocx: in free software, it is your love, your passion, that wants you to create the greatest application ever..and besides bugs, the other important thing is the documentation...you wouldn't expect another person to be able to understand your code and what you want right?
[22:50] <nixternal> marius: something we can definitely look at...but remember, if we add anything new by default, that means we have to remove something
[22:50] <nixternal> and I am all for removing OO.o and replacing it with KOffice anyways :)
[22:51] <ubunturos> ah, KOffice
[22:51] <marius> nixternal: but all these are little apps that does a LOT of "healing" for Kubuntu :D
[22:51] <Jucato> ubunturos: regarding your doc question, you can approach nixternal later in #kubuntu-devel to help you, since he's doing doc work for both KDE and Kubuntu
[22:51] <nixternal> is that packaged at all for Ubuntu? that would stink if it wasn't
[22:51] <ubunturos> Jucato: right. ok
[22:51] <marius> +1 for Kword
[22:51] <vocx> nixternal, oh... and he also said that in his opinion, "a lot of linux applications were badly designed" so he basically wanted to develop applications, sell them to Canonical and move on.  I'll get you the thread, it's a nice discussion.
[22:51] <nixternal> did I miss a doc question?
[22:51] <ubunturos> nixternal: not a problem, please continue
[22:52] <nixternal> vocx: ya, I would like to read, and definitely not comment..I have worked in Microsoft shops before, and a majority couldn't dev a good HID or UI to save their lives
[22:52] <marius> nixternal: it is, even for amd64... i use the Kubuntu 64-bit version ;)
[22:52] <nixternal> as do i
[22:53] <nosrednaekim> -1 for kword
[22:53] <nixternal> what else is weighing on people's minds?
[22:53] <nixternal> Emacs then! :)
[22:53]  * nosrednaekim likes vim and kate
[22:53] <marius> nixternal: here's the package for K Menu Gnome (all architectures) http://www.kde-apps.org/content/show.php/K+Menu+Gnome+(Debian+Package)?content=31031
[22:53] <nixternal> who uses a wordprocessor anyways? profesional writing is done with LaTeX :)
[22:54] <marius> lol
[22:54] <marius> I use KWord
[22:54]  * ubunturos loves Kate
[22:54]  * nosrednaekim finds its Doc support less than adequate
[22:54] <marius> nixternal: last question....Why there's no entry for KMail in Kmenu? :)
[22:54] <nixternal> here is something I want to know, besides marius who has overloaded us with a ton of ideas, well marius too, what would you like to see in the future for KUbuntu? how can we make you love us long time :)
[22:55] <mzungu> Just a thought - for all those who don't know which packages to install from the 20,000 + universe, should there be a kubuntu recommended list of additional packages to 'round out' the install
[22:55] <Jucato> marius: we prefer to have it in Kontact :)
[22:55] <ubunturos> marius: isn't that integerated with Kontact
[22:55] <nixternal> omg, I just did that "Full Metal Jacket" style
[22:55] <marius> but marius hates Kontact :(
[22:55] <marius> :))
[22:55] <nixternal> mzungu: good idea!!!! excellent idea actually...if you want, start up a wiki page or something with that, and I will see about putting it into the Kubuntu docs
[22:55]  * ubunturos likes the integration of Kmail, Akregator in it :)
[22:56] <marius> Everyone... hand up for Domino Milk in Kubuntu 8.04!
[22:56] <nixternal> I used Pine and Mutt for years, last year I switched to Kontact, needed another K in my arsenal, and I haven't looked back...for you IMAP users, check out Mailody, simply amazing
[22:56]  * nosrednaekim wants ANYTHING new
[22:56] <mzungu> ok - i'll see what i can do
[22:56] <Jucato> nixternal: if sorting already works on Adept Manager, the packages with the Kubuntu icons are from main/restricted.. . usually those are the recommended stuff right?
[22:57] <nixternal> are they recommended, or do they just have the K/Qt deps?
[22:57] <nosrednaekim> thats still like 2000 packages..
[22:57] <nixternal> that I don't know...I use apt-get for everything
[22:57] <nosrednaekim> and some are GNOME
[22:57] <nosrednaekim> (I think)
[22:57] <marius> nixternal: some nice mouse themes installed by default? (I use ComixIcons packages)
[22:57] <Jucato> we could most probably make up a list
[22:57]  * nosrednaekim the traitor uses synaptic
[22:57] <marius> :)
[22:58] <nixternal> I think having a few pages in our docs that explains all of great possibilities would be great, and I want to work on that, and would even mentor someone looking to help document
[22:58] <nosrednaekim> marius: so many ideas! :)
[22:58] <nixternal> hehe
[22:58] <nixternal> who uses a mouse?
[22:58] <marius> lol
[22:58] <nixternal> Microsoft users!
[22:58] <nixternal> haha
[22:58] <Jucato> nixternal: <AmyRose_p2> Sysinfo for 'amy-pentiumtwo': Linux 2.6.22-14-generic running KDE 3.5.8, CPU: PentiumII(Klamath) at 332 MHz (665 bogomips), , RAM: 150/154MB, 102 proc's, 2.30h up
[22:58] <marius> :D
[22:58] <mzungu> ahh - adept! last used in dapper, so thought to give it a try in gutsy - but what a resource hog! and a memory leak somewhere - so back to aptitude in konsole ;)
[22:58] <Jucato> nixternal: for the doubters!
[22:58] <nixternal> holy smokes
[22:58] <marius> -1 for Adept
[22:58] <nixternal> Amy has me beat big time
[22:59] <Jucato> nixternal: I asked AmyRose to sort of document his/her user experience
[22:59] <marius> I've read the whole session from Tuesday
[22:59] <nixternal> Celeron 500 overclocked to 800MHz running KDE (Slackware) on another box
[22:59] <nixternal> PackageKit? :)
[22:59]  * nixternal ducks
[22:59] <marius> I think the best idea is for someone to make a QT version of Synaptic
[22:59] <Jucato> nixternal: hide from mhb!!!
[22:59] <Jucato> marius: there was... but it died
[22:59] <nixternal> exactly why I ducked
[23:00] <marius> or Packagekit.....
[23:00]  * nosrednaekim ducks from mhb
[23:00] <marius> :)
[23:00] <nixternal> We definitely need to do something, because it seems that Adept isn't loved by many people
[23:00] <Jucato> marius: I personally would prefer something that won't look like a copy of something else though :)
[23:00] <nosrednaekim> kynaptic sucked
[23:00] <Jucato> nixternal: s/seems/is evident/
[23:00] <marius> heh
[23:00] <nixternal> Jucato: you got it :)
[23:00] <ubunturos> sudo apt-get instead ;)
[23:01] <nixternal> booyah
[23:01] <luca> nixternal: when adept will be as flexible and powerful as synaptic, thing'll get better :)
[23:01] <Jucato> of course, a new package manager isn't an easy business, and won't exactly be perfect the first time it's out...
[23:01] <nixternal> ubunturos: but new users are scared of the command line, at least that is what all of the FUD slingers say
[23:01] <luca> (and apt-get rocks :D )
[23:01] <nixternal> we could be like another distro and create Python front ends for every command line utility there is :)
[23:01] <ubunturos> umm
[23:01] <Jucato> nixternal: yeah.. riiiight :)
[23:02] <nosrednaekim> ok...one of biggest problems with kubuntu is artwork...who here is an artist?
[23:02]  * Jucato ducks
[23:02]  * nixternal ducks
[23:02] <marius> lol
[23:02] <luca> uhm by the way...sorry to interrupt...about apt-get...sudo apt-get build-dep amarok --> was not possible to satisfy dependencies ?_?
[23:02] <nixternal> oh wait, Ken isn't in here
[23:02] <mzungu> there is a huge debate on apt-get vs aptitude - which aptitude seems to win with better depenency handling
[23:02] <Jucato> nosrednaekim: our beloved mhb is drawing up a spec to build a Kubuntu artist community
[23:02] <marius> i'm....NOT :)
[23:02] <nosrednaekim> Jucato: ah.... our beloved minion
[23:02] <nixternal> mhb is superdev! nobody works harder than he does...
[23:03] <Jucato> no one except nixternal and Riddell
[23:03] <nixternal> imagine if we had about 10 of him
[23:03] <Jucato> gremlins-style? O.o
[23:03]  * Jucato fetches a bucket of water....
[23:03] <nixternal> heh
[23:04] <nixternal> OK, I am going to start finishing up here, but I would be more than welcome to carry the conversations on later...
[23:04] <nixternal> one thing I want to say though
[23:04] <nixternal> Kubuntu is lacking in active developers and we try to draw them in. Our number 1 goal however isn't the developer, but the user, and making that user as happy as possible
[23:05] <marius> Richard, it was a pleasure to talk to you.. have a great night and I hope some of my ideas will become reality!
[23:05] <luca> bye and thanks :)
[23:05] <Jucato> ubunturos: remember to poke nixternal later and see whatever happened to your doc submissions to KDE
[23:05] <marius> Good night everyone!
[23:05] <Jucato> good morning!!!
[23:05] <mzungu> many thanks nixternal
[23:05] <nixternal> 99.9% of the Kubuntu developers are not paid, actually only 1 is...but we have a very tight-knit community that is easy to join in with, and you will meet some of the greatest people and developers in the world
[23:05] <Jucato> nixternal: can I go back to sleep now? :/
[23:05] <marius> It's just 1 AM here :)
[23:05] <nixternal> it is a total joy working wth the Kubuntu people, and if it wasn't for that, I am sure I would be back with Debian, or lost and confused with some RPM distro :)
[23:06] <stdin> Jucato: no, you have to look after #kubuntu now
[23:06]  * stdin runs away
[23:06] <mzungu> 1am here too!
[23:06]  * Jucato lassos stdin
[23:06] <marius> We love you too Richard! :D
[23:06] <Jucato> nixternal: the chameleon!!! :)
[23:06] <nixternal> I want to thank you all for the awesome questions, and if you want to ensure I remember your ideas and what not, fire an email to me at nixternal@kubuntu.org or even fire some ideas to kubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com
[23:06] <Jucato> hah finally he uses the @kubuntu.org :P
[23:06] <stdin> where's picachu when you need an electric attack...
[23:06] <nixternal> we can always use developers, we can so use non-developers as well
[23:07] <nixternal> so if you know someone who is looking to get into free software, or Ubuntu/Kubuntu, let them know it is easy, there are jobs for everyone
[23:07] <luca> nixternal: I just hope that by Hardy, no one will ever say anymore that Ubuntu is the LESSER sister of Gnome Ubuntu :)
[23:07] <Jucato> and for those people who like to help out Kubuntu in every way possible, we do invite you to lend a helping hand in #kubuntu :)
[23:07] <nixternal> with that said, thanks again everyone, and I hope you all keep in contact because you have brilliant ideas and wonderful personalities
[23:07] <luca> sadly tops I can do is beta-testing :( and #kubuntu , a bit
[23:07] <nixternal> stuff that makes Kubuntu the greatest!
[23:07] <Jucato> luca: every little bit helps :)
[23:07] <stdin> and the wiki, please someone help me with the wiki
[23:08] <Jucato> no one touch the wiki!!!
[23:08]  * stdin begs
[23:08] <Jucato> :P
[23:08] <luca> oh by the way
[23:08] <nixternal> luca: that isn't "sadly" at all, that is great! no matter how you help, you matter believe it or not..and with the Kubuntu community still being quite small, you don't get lost easily
[23:08] <Jucato> stdin: let's see what we can do next week btw... if you have a list, it would be easier
[23:09] <luca> nixternal: good then :) but I won't update to Hardy 'till february/march, I am done with unstable systems for a while :P
[23:09] <nixternal> haha
[23:09] <stdin> Jucato: the way I find them is usually, "<stdin> person: go look at this wiki page...."   "<person> stdin: where is System > "Administration"? "
[23:09] <nixternal> I am probably going to dist-upgrade this week to Hardy
[23:09] <luca> good luck :)
[23:09] <nixternal> I am opposite, I can't stand stability..there is no challenge with stability :)
[23:10] <nixternal> you learn more when you are fixing stuff :)
[23:10] <luca> well...I guess I will have my share of fun with kde4 :P
[23:10] <nixternal> I am talking to you from KDE 4 as we speak
[23:10]  * stdin just finished compiling kde4 again
[23:10] <nixternal> hehe
[23:10] <Jucato> :)
[23:10] <nixternal> compiling KDE can be done in my sleep now
[23:10] <nixternal> literally, because kdelibs takes forever!
[23:10] <stdin> I have a script :p
[23:11] <luca> me too, but failed multiple times
[23:11] <luca> I have done many build-dep now...crossing my fingers...
[23:11] <stdin> it "svn up"'s then goes to ../build and makes them
[23:11] <nixternal> I have to watch each of my builds..I did use a script that would >> to a file if there were deprecated tags
[23:11] <nixternal> who had a problem with amarok build-dep?
[23:12] <luca> me
[23:12] <luca> and konversation too
[23:12] <stdin> luca I think
[23:12] <nixternal> what package was it failing on?
[23:12] <nixternal> I have to say, Amarok 2 is simply gorgeous!
[23:12] <luca> amarok* and konversation so far
[23:13] <luca> the error is a simple "it was not possible to satisfy building dependencies"
[23:13] <nixternal> hrmm
[23:13] <nosrednaekim> apt-get builddep?
[23:13] <nixternal> I will have to check and see all the deps missing
[23:13] <stdin> is that the whole output?
[23:13] <luca> which is odd as I did multiple build-deps on the kde4 packages w/o problems
[23:13] <luca> yeah it is :(
[23:13]  * Jucato didn't know nixternal's session was 2 hours....
[23:14] <Jucato> :P
[23:14] <stdin> it was longer on tue
[23:15] <Jucato> too bad I wasn't there... I should have been
[23:15]  * Jucato headdesks
[23:15] <luca> nixternal can you issue those commands w/ good results?
[23:15] <nixternal> E: Build-dependencies for amarok could not be satisfied.
[23:15] <nixternal> nope
[23:15] <nixternal> hrmm
[23:15] <nixternal> looking into it now
[23:15] <stdin> on gutsy?
[23:15] <luca> yeah
[23:16] <stdin> works here
[23:16] <luca> it seems to affect konversation too
[23:16] <luca> stdin: good, now we just have to remote compare three boxes :P
[23:16] <Jucato> yay.. anyway... good night!
[23:16] <luca> night
[23:16] <stdin> dpkg -l|wc -l
[23:16] <stdin> 2268
[23:16] <stdin> or not...
[23:17] <luca> same error for konqueror O_o
[23:17] <nixternal> and it is funny, because apt-get check isn't returning anything for me
[23:17] <luca> same here
[23:18]  * nosrednaekim is waiting for the Developer preview
[23:18] <vocx> For developers read http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=544957&highlight=sell+software+business+support
[23:18] <nixternal> nosrednaekim: check it out from trunk/extragear/multimedia
[23:18] <nosrednaekim> nixternal: dial-up.... i'm not checking ANYTHING out.
[23:18] <nixternal> lol
[23:18] <nixternal> I forgot
[23:19] <nosrednaekim> maybe when I go down to the library or something
[23:19] <nixternal> nosrednaekim: there is an amarok2 package in the repos
[23:19] <nosrednaekim> oh rly?
[23:19] <nixternal> ya, don't know how old it is though
[23:19] <nosrednaekim> eh.... whats it called? i
[23:19] <nosrednaekim> m
[23:19] <nosrednaekim> not seeing it
[23:20] <luca> by the way, as I am here....I have to file a bug report for wpa, nm-applet and knetworkmanager...a hidden wpa...odd thing is that I can connect with knetworkmanager, but it does forget the settings at every reboot :(
[23:20] <luca> nixternal: never seen it!
[23:20] <nixternal> luca: there could already be a bug report for that...I filed one a while back about that stuff
[23:22] <nixternal> alrighty all, I am off for a bit...need to hunt down some food..thanks again
[23:22] <luca> nixternal thanks
[23:22] <nixternal> stupid IRC
[23:23] <luca> lol :D
[23:32] <jose__> hi, does anyone know how to install cedega, i was trying to install it but i can't o.O hehe