[00:00] <soren> lamont: Are you tagging the dapper->hardy upgrade bug reports?
[00:12] <keescook> cjwatson_: when would be a good time to look over procps with me?  I've put my merge up if you want to see the disappearing conffile trick...  http://people.ubuntu.com/~kees/hardy/
[00:14] <cjwatson_> keescook: I'm supposed to be on holiday now and packing. UDS?
[00:14] <cjwatson_> I'm only still here to try to finish off PS3 stuff and get this dapper installer work tested
[00:14] <keescook> cjwatson_: works for me -- I'm in no rush.  :)
[00:15] <keescook> I can't even do the stuff I want to do with sysctl until 2.6.23 lands.  ;)
[00:20] <bdmurray> jdong: you commented on 145123 - I'm trying to recreate it
[00:51] <Solarion> woo hoo!  the gibbon is giving the werewolf a run for his (her?) money!  :)
[00:57] <khatahn> hi, if this is the wrong place to ask, please point me to the right place: now that Gimp 2.4.0 final is released, is it going to be officially available for gutsy somehow, or is -rc3 where it's going to stay?
[00:58] <cjwatson> khatahn: gutsy will remain at its current version. At most, the final release may become available in backports
[00:58] <khatahn> firefox is some kind of exception then i assume?
[00:59] <Solarion> khatahn: you mean the security update?
[00:59] <khatahn> i guess so
[01:00] <cjwatson> khatahn: we have to exempt firefox because we can't otherwise reasonably provide security updates for it
[01:01] <cjwatson> but it is definitely an exception (and one we'd like to cease, if upstream practices were to improve), not the general rule
[01:01] <khatahn> ok, thanks for the information
[01:01] <cjwatson> (FAOD I doubt the way firefox is handled will change in the near future though)
[01:03] <Solarion> interesting.  ubuntu's ifconfig reports MiB as MB, but debian's reports MiB as MiB.
[01:04] <achiang> so, my system is hanging hard after an upgrade to gutsy. i've filed a bug, attached a sysrq-t dump, dmesg, and lscpi
[01:04] <achiang> anything else useful to include?
[02:02] <chowmeined> uh oh
[02:02] <chowmeined> somebody made a mistake
[02:03] <TheMuso> chowmeined: For what?
[02:04] <chowmeined> the new thunderbird broke a bunch of stuff
[02:05] <chowmeined> all the pages are filled with XML parsing errors after upgrading
[02:06] <TheMuso> ah
[02:06] <chowmeined> thats my initial sensationalist description of the problem
[02:06] <chowmeined> ill refine it in a bit
[02:21] <desrt> hmm.  fascinating.  ubuntu causes laptop harddrives to die before their time
[02:21]  * desrt wonders if that has anything to do with his laptop harddrive dying before its time
[02:23] <mathiaz> zul: you should also send your email about Xen In Hardy to ubuntu-devel
[02:24] <mathiaz> zul: or ubuntu-devel-discuss
[02:24] <zul> mathiaz: sure
[02:24] <zul> mathiaz: sounds reasonable though?
[02:24] <mathiaz> zul: yes. I've just quickly read the email.
[02:25] <mathiaz> zul: I don't have a lot of experience with xen (for now).
[02:25] <mathiaz> zul: so I can't really comment on it.
[02:25] <mathiaz> zul: but from what I've read, it seems reasonable.
[03:01] <Amaranth> it looks like bug 59695 got dugg
[03:01] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 59695 in acpi-support "default value in power.sh potentially kills laptop disks" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/59695
[03:01] <Amaranth> just checked, my load count is 580000 after 18 months :/
[03:04] <mjg59> Amaranth: By default, power.sh does nothing
[03:05] <Amaranth> mjg59: sure but powertop told me to enable laptop mode :/
[03:05] <mjg59> Amaranth: If powertop told you to jump off a cliff, would you?
[03:06] <Amaranth> if it got me 5 minutes extra battery life...
[03:08] <mjg59> If you enable aggressive power management, then yes, your hard drive life will be shorter
[03:09] <jdong> bdmurray: I suspect it's a problem with the way the new fglrx 8.42 works...
[03:10] <jdong> bdmurray: also, mouse-pasting seems to work in gnome-screensaver!
[03:10] <mjg59> If your BIOS defaults to programming your drive to have aggressive power management, then that's an issue with your BIOS rather than us
[03:10] <jdong> IMO that's also a security breach
[03:10] <jdong> especially since now we give "Leave MEssage" a cleartext textbox that can echo back clipboard contents
[03:13] <jdong> bdmurray: lol, I just read your comment on the bug... ignore my comments before the last comment :)
[03:16] <jdong> anyone else think bug 146862 shoudl be tagged as a security bug?
[03:16] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 146862 in gnome-screensaver "Should not allow to paste in the Leave Message box" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/146862
[03:16] <jdong> it discloses the contents of the clipboard before locking the screen
[03:17] <tonyyarusso> jdong: seems reasonable to me
[03:17] <tonyyarusso> I'm not really the person to ask, but if you're just looking for general populace feedback, there you go.
[03:19] <jdong> tonyyarusso: thanks; I'm just wanting to make sure I'm not completely out of line in thinking that's a security problem
[03:19] <tonyyarusso> jdong: np :)
[03:20] <tonyyarusso> I can't really think of an instance where it would be a problem for me personally, but in a corporate environment it certainly could be.
[03:20] <jdong> tonyyarusso: the problem is more serious with mouse-paste IMO -- anything a user might've accidentically selected while manipulating or reading would be accessible from the clipboard buffer...
[03:21] <jdong> by someone else...
[03:21] <tonyyarusso> jdong: yeah
[03:21] <jdong> I mean the point of locking your screen is primarily privacy from people walking by of what you were doing
[03:21] <tonyyarusso> jdong: Unless of course you happened to close the application, and that other clipboard bug cleared it for you.  :P
[03:21] <jdong> tonyyarusso: rofl :)
[03:21] <jdong> tonyyarusso: two bugs make a security feature.
[03:22]  * tonyyarusso still gets very very irritated with how Gnome handles copy and paste between apps....
[03:25] <jdong> tonyyarusso: more of a problem with the X11 clipboard protocols...
[03:25] <jdong> tonyyarusso: KDE's workaround (a competent clipboard manager) seems good... but not without its limitations
[03:27] <ion_> Indeed, i can lock the screen, click “Leave Message” and paste the clipboard’s contents to the textbox.
[03:28] <jdong> ion_: yeah... I am shocked by how many screensaver vulnerabilities there are this release :(
[03:29] <jdong> ion_: there's currently a compiz-related one where you can kill the screensaver
[03:30] <ion_> As a concept, the “Leave Message” thing is really neat.
[03:30] <jdong> ion_: yeah, without a doubt it's awesome
[03:30] <smallfoot-> http://www.linux-hero.com/rant/explanation-ubuntu-hard-drive-wear-and-tear -- please fix this
[03:30] <ion_> File bug reports at Launchpad.
[03:30] <jdong> smallfoot-: we've heard and were discussing this arleady
[03:30] <ion_> (That one’s already there.)
[03:31] <jdong> smallfoot-: the story's on digg, we don't need 10,000 people coming in here one by one asking for a fix...
[03:32] <smallfoot-> okay, but you need to fix it immediatly, and make a patch
[03:32] <smallfoot-> this is an very important issue, i dont want my hard drive be crashed
[03:33] <sbalneav> smallfoot-: The fix is right in the article
[03:33] <smallfoot-> if it happen in windows, microsoft would release a patch to fix it, you must patch too
[03:33] <mjg59> smallfoot-: Does it happen to you?
[03:33] <TheMuso> c
[03:33] <TheMuso> ugh
[03:33] <smallfoot-> i dont know
[03:33] <TheMuso> wrong tab
[03:33] <smallfoot-> yes, but i cant recommend ubuntu to friends, if it will destroy their hard drives
[03:33] <tonyyarusso> ...
[03:33] <tonyyarusso> smallfoot-: mine's not dead yet, so I'd take issue with "will destroy"
[03:34] <mjg59> smallfoot-: The summary is that Ubuntu does not touch the power management settings on your hard drive.
[03:34] <mjg59> If your hard drive behaves like that, it's because your BIOS tells it to
[03:34] <smallfoot-> then why this guy made post in digg.com?
[03:34] <mjg59> smallfoot-: You'd have to ask him that
[03:34] <smallfoot-> oh ok
[03:34] <smallfoot-> he have hitatchi
[03:34] <smallfoot-> i have samsung
[03:34] <jdong> smallfoot-: the article is incorrect
[03:34] <smallfoot-> ok
[03:35] <smallfoot-> i dont need worry?
[03:35] <jdong> smallfoot-: he must have set ENABLE_LAPTOP_MODE=YES in acpi-support
[03:35] <jdong> smallfoot-: in a greedy attempt to get more battery life
[03:35] <jdong> smallfoot-: laptop-mode might set an aggressive powersaving mode like this... it's not default config
[03:35] <jdong> smallfoot-: also, many articles on "power saving" under Linux recommend similar tactics
[03:35] <smallfoot-> oh
[03:35] <jdong> smallfoot-: we cannot stop users from trying things like this :(
[03:35] <smallfoot-> ok
[03:35] <tonyyarusso> (doesn't laptop-mode get automatically enabled by the installer if it thinks the machine is a laptop?)
[03:36] <mjg59> tonyyarusso: no
[03:36] <smallfoot-> i went into services in ubuntu, and it had both APM and ACPI enabled, i only need ACPI, why both enabledf?
[03:36] <jdong> tonyyarusso: no, it doesn't....
[03:36] <mjg59> smallfoot-: Because you can pass an argument to the kernel to tell it to use apm instead of acpi
[03:36] <tonyyarusso> mjg59: Oh.  It is at least installed by default if not enabled...right?  (Or I've *completely* lost it)
[03:36] <mjg59> tonyyarusso: Yes
[03:36] <tonyyarusso> k
[03:37] <jdong> 67:# Switch to laptop-mode on battery power - off by default as it causes odd
[03:37] <jdong> 68-# hangs on some machines
[03:37] <jdong> tonyyarusso: ^^
[03:37] <jdong> 69-ENABLE_LAPTOP_MODE=false
[03:37]  * ajmitch wonders what a 'sane' load cycle count is supposed to be
[03:37] <jdong> ajmitch: one that predicts the hard drive having > 2yr life?
[03:38] <ajmitch> jdong: well my laptop is coming close to 2 years of age, running ubuntu from about the first day I had it :)
[03:38] <ajmitch> I'm sure that I had laptop mode enabled at some point
[03:38] <ajmitch> so I see a count of ~240K
[03:38] <smallfoot-> i bought my comptuer in  2007, ACPI is the successor to APM, i dont need APM
[03:38] <smallfoot-> APM is old technolgoy, i have new computer, and must use new technology!
[03:38] <ajmitch> mine's an acer, so having a broken BIOS is a given
[03:39] <ion_> ”Welcome to the Ubuntu Settings Wizard. How many months do you want your laptop HDD to last? [   24 ]”
[03:39] <mjg59> smallfoot-: Then it's using ACPI. Don't worry.
[03:41] <smallfoot-> ok, but i disabled APM, cuz i dont want to waste resources like Windows Vista
[03:41] <smallfoot-> i want a mean, lean, clean, machine, thats fast!
[03:41] <smallfoot-> FULL POWER!
[03:41] <smallfoot-> use little resources, run fast, quick, responsive
[03:41] <mjg59> That's fine. It's not running anything APM related.
[03:41] <mjg59> http://mjg59.livejournal.com/77672.html has a description of the issue
[03:41] <smallfoot-> ok, i disabled it anysays
[03:42] <smallfoot-> oh
[03:42] <chowmeined> set your BIOS to wait a reasonable amount of time
[03:42] <Solarion> mjg59!
[03:42] <chowmeined> depending on how you use your laptop
[03:43] <jdong> smallfoot-: also see http://www.thinkwiki.org/wiki/Problem_with_hard_drive_clicking#Possible_Cause_and_Speculation
[03:44] <jdong> smallfoot-: it seems like a lot of laptop drives are culpable to this behavior, even without help from laptop-mode
[03:44] <mjg59> Solarion: Mm?
[03:44] <Solarion> mjg59: hi.  :)
[03:44] <chowmeined> smallfoot-: then do it this way...
[03:44] <smallfoot-> i dont have laptop
[03:45] <smallfoot-> laptop are for girls, im real men, i use desktop computer, with 19" screen!
[03:45] <smallfoot-> with real keyboard, and real mouse!
[03:45] <chowmeined> smallfoot-: dont use a GUI, dont use a hard drive (flash drive instead), and dont use wireless
[03:45] <smallfoot-> and im gonna buy a 22" screen
[03:45] <Solarion> smallfoot-: that explains your back pains, then.  :)
[03:45] <jdong> FWIW, I have a 3-y-o laptop with load cycle count 877074
[03:45] <jdong> and it's still alive and doing well
[03:45] <smallfoot-> Solarion, laptop is more ergonomic?
[03:45] <Solarion> smallfoot-: than a desktop, yes.
[03:45] <Solarion> backpack-wise, anyhow
[03:46] <smallfoot-> chowmeined, flash drive expensive, and i need the GUI, i dont want use 1960 computer, i must have GUI
[03:46] <chowmeined> lol
[03:46] <chowmeined> computers in the 1960s didnt have consoles
[03:46] <mjg59> Anyway. Unless anyone has any technical issues they want to bring up, could you move this conversation elsewhere?
[03:46] <chowmeined> they had punch cards and other nonsense
[03:46] <mjg59> The level at which it impacts Ubuntu is pretty obvious
[03:48] <jdong> mjg59: on the other hand, would it be sane to do some monitoring of load cycle counts via a periodic cronjob, and if it increments alarmingly fast pop up a notification balloon of some sort?
[03:50] <mjg59> jdong: I don't know that that value is guaranteed to be an actual measurement of the number of load cycles
[03:50] <mjg59> If it turns out that a large number of BIOSes are programming this oddly, then we ought to be more proactive. But that's still us defending ourselves about poor BIOSes, not a fundamental failure of Ubuntu.
[03:51] <jdong> mjg59: defending the user against poorly designed hardware, when we can, is a definite plus
[03:51] <jdong> I agree strictly speaking it's not the responsibility of the OS
[03:51] <mjg59> Yes, I'd agree. But it's a bonus if we do, not a failure if we don't.
[03:52] <chowmeined> sure logically it is
[03:52] <jdong> now the other question I have....
[03:52] <chowmeined> but people will see it as a failure
[03:52] <jdong> if you drop your laptop once, would park-on-idle have paid off?
[03:52] <chowmeined> especially with sensationalist postings on digg flying around
[03:52] <tonyyarusso> At least now I know how to get on Digg.... :P
[03:52] <jdong> I expect the disk head crashing down on data parts of the hard drive would be a bad thing (tm)?
[03:53] <chowmeined> jdong: backups pay off
[03:53] <tonyyarusso> "UBUNTU WILL MAKE YOUR MOUSE EXPLODE!!1!"
[03:54] <jdong> chowmeined: backups will always pay off, but that's not the question I'm raising
[03:54] <jdong> mine is assessing the benefits vs harm of aggressive idle management
[03:55] <chowmeined> i think thats a different thing however
[03:55] <chowmeined> at least.. the laptops that sense they are falling and park the head
[03:56] <jdong> chowmeined: yeah, that is different
[03:56] <chowmeined> i dunno
[03:56] <chowmeined> i dont drop my laptop
[03:56] <jdong> chowmeined: I don't think anyone intends to drop their laptop
[03:56] <jdong> well if they do, then they don't deserve one and should send it to me :)
[03:57] <TheMuso> lol
[03:57] <chowmeined> when will there be builds of hardy available? i want to get a head start fixing bugs, since its LTS.. id like it to work as well as possible
[03:57] <chowmeined> there were some serious issues in gutsy unfortunately
[03:58] <jdong> chowmeined: awesome, that's the spirit :)
[03:58] <chowmeined> like ralink wireless drivers being very very flakey
[03:58] <TheMuso> ug
[04:00] <jdong> chowmeined: that's not really gutsy's fault, unless I have drifted out of date with that project
[04:00] <jdong> chowmeined: serialmonkey's team has produced a driver that's problematic in a SMP setting
[04:02] <chowmeined> well i think it was considerably more people than that
[04:03] <jdong> chowmeined: the Ubuntu default kernel is SMP... which means it'll affect everyone running the generic kernel
[04:03] <godlkwrth> Can anyone explain to me why the apmd init script never gets run
[04:03] <chowmeined> jdong: oh.. thats right, sorry i forgot about that
[04:03] <mjg59> godlkwrth: It does, so no
[04:03] <godlkwrth> in feisty
[04:04] <mjg59> Oh, wait. Maybe it doesn't. How odd.
[04:04] <mjg59> Ah, I don't have apmd installed
[04:04] <jdong> chowmeined: I hung around upstream's form a lot 2 years ago, and looked a lot at the project.... My final conclusion was that there was no real hope for unhacking those drivers for SMP support, but they needed a rewrite...
[04:05] <jdong> chowmeined: seems like they're doing a rewrite and today they still have SMP problems :-/
[04:05] <godlkwrth> ALSO
[04:05] <mjg59> godlkwrth: Ok. If you have apmd installed, the init script it provides will be run.
[04:05] <godlkwrth> is it true that /etc/hdparm.conf gets parsed everytime a harddrive is added
[04:05] <mjg59> No?
[04:06] <godlkwrth> apmd is installed by default
[04:06] <jdong> godlkwrth: it's run once at bootup by the hdparm init script
[04:06] <mjg59> As far as I know, it's only read when /etc/init.d/hdparm is run
[04:06] <godlkwrth> it appears that there is udev rule that runs /lib/udev/hdparm everytime a hd device is added
[04:06] <mjg59> godlkwrth: Then /etc/init.d/apmd is run by default shortly after you enter multiuser mode
[04:07] <godlkwrth> just try running it
[04:07] <godlkwrth> it doesn't run
[04:07] <godlkwrth> there are links in rc4.d and rc5.d for it
[04:08] <godlkwrth> but it doesn't work
[04:08] <mjg59> godlkwrth: What do you mean, "it doesn't work"?
[04:08] <jdong> I don't have an APM BIOS, so I can't run it.
[04:08] <godlkwrth> these are serious problems
[04:09] <mjg59> godlkwrth: What do you mean, "it doesn't work"?
[04:09] <godlkwrth> and it doesn't matter what BIOS you have
[04:09] <godlkwrth> try running it, it does nothing
[04:09] <jdong> godlkwrth: is ACPI enabled currently?
[04:09] <mjg59> godlkwrth: That means you don't have APM
[04:09] <godlkwrth> every PC has APM as well as ACPI these days
[04:09] <mjg59> godlkwrth: No
[04:09] <jdong> godlkwrth: totally untrue
[04:10] <mjg59> godlkwrth: You can't run APM and ACPI simultaneously
[04:10] <mjg59> The ACPI spec explicitly prohibits that
[04:10] <godlkwrth> well, ubuntu would have us
[04:10] <godlkwrth> looking in the runlevel directories
[04:10] <mjg59> godlkwrth: Yes. We try to run apmd, in case your system is running in APM mode.
[04:11] <mjg59> If your system isn't running in APM mode, then the script does nothing.
[04:11] <mjg59> The decision to run your system in ACPI mode rather than APM mode is made right at the start of kernel boot
[04:11] <mjg59> So long before any init scripts are run
[04:11] <godlkwrth> there are no acpi and apm "modes"
[04:11] <godlkwrth> they are either supported or not
[04:11] <mjg59> godlkwrth: I'm sorry, you're wrong.
[04:12] <TheMuso> godlkwrth: You are talking to a guy who eats this stuff for breakfast. :)
[04:12] <jdong> lol, no kidding...
[04:13] <mjg59> godlkwrth: See section 15.3.1 of the ACPI 3.0 spec, for instalce
[04:13] <mjg59> 15.3.1 Placing the System in ACPI Mode
[04:13] <mjg59> "                                                       When control is passed to the operating system, OSPM
[04:13] <mjg59> will check the SCI_EN bit and if it is not set will then enable ACPI mode by first finding the ACPI tables,
[04:13] <mjg59> and then by generating a write of the ACPI_ENABLE value to the SMI_CMD port (as described in the
[04:13] <mjg59> FADT). The hardware platform will set the SCI_EN bit to indicate to OSPM that the hardware platform is
[04:13] <mjg59> now configured for ACPI.
[04:13] <mjg59> "
[04:13] <mjg59> So yes, the kernel puts the platform into ACPI mode on boot. From then on, you can't make APM calls.
[04:14] <godlkwrth> modern BIOS support both, I can power off my computer with APM (if acpi isn't supported)
[04:14] <godlkwrth> i.e. I start with noacpi kernel arg
[04:14] <jdong> if you start with noacpi, then yeah, acpi is off.
[04:14] <mjg59> godlkwrth: If the kernel never puts the system in ACPI mode, you can use APM if the platform supports it. Many modern systems don't support APM at all.
[04:14] <mjg59> You can never use APM and ACPI simultaneously.
[04:14] <godlkwrth> I can also poweroff my computer with APM EVEN IF ACPI is on
[04:14] <mjg59> No, you can't.
[04:14] <mjg59> Whatever you think you're doing, it doesn't involve APM calls.
[04:15] <mjg59> You can't make APM calls if the kernel has enabled ACPI. The APM code is disabled.
[04:15] <godlkwrth> you still can't explain why the script doesn't work...
[04:15] <mjg59> The script does nothing because you're in ACPI mode, and so can't use APM
[04:15] <godlkwrth> the script doesn't do any detection of ACPI
[04:15] <mjg59> Correct. It checks for APM.
[04:16] <mjg59> And you have no APM because the kernel has enabled ACPI, so won't let you use APM.
[04:16] <godlkwrth> doesn't explain why the script is in the default runlevel and isn't enabled
[04:16] <mjg59> It is enabled
[04:16] <mjg59> It's there so that if your computer doesn't support ACPI or if you've disabled ACPI, it'll run apmd
[04:17] <mjg59>         if (PM_IS_ACTIVE()) {
[04:17] <mjg59>                 printk(KERN_NOTICE "apm: overridden by ACPI.\n");
[04:17] <mjg59>                 apm_info.disabled = 1;
[04:17] <mjg59>                 return -ENODEV;
[04:17] <mjg59>         }
[04:17] <mjg59> Line 2259 of arch/i386/kernel/apm.c from the kernel
[04:17] <mjg59> PM_IS_ACTIVE will evaluate to true if ACPI is enabled, since switching to ACPI mode is done some time before the kernel gets around to initialising the APM code
[04:18] <jdong> mjg59: I think he's saying he actually does not have an apmd script symlink in rc2.d
[04:18] <jdong> which I cannot explain either -- it's default
[04:19] <mjg59> jdong: Then he's deleted it
[04:19] <jdong> mjg59: put plainly, yeah.
[04:19] <mjg59> Or some other piece of software has. Regardless, it's not our fault :)
[04:52] <jdong> mjg59: can we please set laptop-mode.conf's default -B mode when activated to something other than the most aggressive?
[04:52] <jdong> mjg59: maybe a value near 200 or 150?
[07:00] <fabbione> smurf: ping?
[08:39] <gilligan_> morning.. does scott james renmant, the guy behind upstart ever hang out in here ?
[08:40] <Burgundavia> gilligan_: keybuk is your man, and yes
[08:40] <Burgundavia> gilligan_: although upstart-devel is a probably a better place to ask questions
[08:40] <gilligan_> burgundavia: ah, great..thanks ;]
[08:41] <gilligan_> if only there was sucha channel ;] or where you referring to a ml ?
[08:41] <Burgundavia> no worries
[08:41] <Burgundavia> gilligan_: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/upstart-devel
[08:41] <gilligan_> s/where/were
[08:41] <gilligan_> ah ok
[08:42] <Burgundavia> figured that was the next question
[08:42] <Burgundavia> gilligan_: if you are anywhere near Boston, there is an Ubuntu Development Summit next week
[08:43] <gilligan_> burgudavia: i'm afraid i'm stuck in south Germany hehe
[08:49] <chowmeined> so #ubuntu+1 isnt open yet?
[09:08] <gilligan_> burgundavia: is there some where I could find information about how the ubuntu build system (building the actual distribution/cd-image) is implemented ? there is some info on organizational matters on the devel wiki but no technical details
[11:48] <tepsipakki> asac: you probably know, but n-m has issues with ipw3945; dbus needs to be restarted after suspend/hibernate
[11:49] <tepsipakki> this on a thinkpad X60
[11:50] <sladen> shouldn't need to restart dbus;  just /etc/dbus-1/event.d/*NetworkManager* restart
[11:55] <tepsipakki> sladen: ah, right.. good to know. Now I can't suspend anymore, though :)
[11:56] <tepsipakki> works once
[11:57] <sladen> sudo pmi action suspend force ?
[11:58] <tepsipakki> I could suspend from the logout dialog
[11:58] <sladen> click cancel, try again
[12:00] <tepsipakki> hmm, now it works
[12:00] <tepsipakki> I'll try reboot
[12:11] <sladen> tepsipakki: sometimes somewhere in asycronous dbus message soup, there'll be a timeout
[12:23] <minomit> server man ..
[12:28] <asac> tepsipakki: can you please try the ~ppa3 package from my ppa?
[12:28] <asac> (its technically a downgrade ... but please test it anyways)
[12:29] <asac> tepsipakki: https://edge.launchpad.net/~asac/+archive
[12:35]  * asac back to holiday
[12:41] <tepsipakki> asac: sorry, and thanks, will try :)
[13:04] <tepsipakki> it's so quiet today, so I guess pretty much everyone is having a day off ;)
[13:08] <ogra_cmpc> slackers
[13:09] <tepsipakki> my thoughts exactly :)
[13:09] <ogra_cmpc> :)
[13:11] <TheMuso> Or packing, and getting ready to fly out to the states.
[13:12] <ogra_cmpc> pfft, excuses excuses
[13:15]  * TheMuso is packed actually, and is working his way through merges. :p
[13:15]  * ogra_cmpc will pack tonight
[13:40] <siretart> http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/dists/gutsy-{updates,security,backports}/Contents-i386.gz is missing. is this intended or a (known) bug?
[14:36] <bryang> probably something simple, but -- what exactly triggers update-manager on say feisty to know that gutsy upgrade is available (for some reason when pointing to a local full mirror, clients don't see this), yet pointed to a archive.ubuntu.com mirror triggers this ?
[14:37] <zul> is there going to be voip again for uds again?
[14:40] <Hobbsee> zul: i hope so.  Spads should know.
[14:40] <Hobbsee> it's going to be a problem if it doesnt.
[14:41] <Hobbsee> bryang: i'd guess it's the published release announcement.
[14:41] <Hobbsee> bryang: (on archive.ubuntu.com, but probably not mirrored to your mirror)
[14:41] <bryang> Hobbsee: what file(s) would that be ?
[14:41] <Hobbsee> i dont remember.  i don't know enough about it :)
[14:42] <bryang> fwiw, I mirror (via rsync) archive.ubuntu.com::ubuntu (so pretty much everything)
[14:44] <Hobbsee> mvo would be able to tell you
[14:44] <Hobbsee> but not for the next few days.
[14:44] <Hobbsee> (oh, yes, that's where all the canonical people are)
[14:44] <bryang> okay, thnx Hobbsee
[15:15] <bddebian> Heya
[16:17] <OldPink> Guys, I've fixed a reported bug on launchpad. It's my first time doing this, and have uploaded all resources and information to apply the fix. Who do I notify/what do I do to get it included in Gutsy/Hardy? See: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.20/+bug/155436
[16:17] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 155436 in linux-source-2.6.20 "iPod won't mount in Gutsy on 2.6.20-16 kernel" [Undecided,Fix committed]
[16:18] <ScottK> OldPink: 2.6.20 isn't the Gutsy kernel.  Try #ubuntu-kernel.
[16:18] <OldPink> ScottK: Thanks, I'm already there. Just excited about getting my first bugfix in :P
[18:19] <blueyed> Can somebody pretty please approve the nomination for gutsy SRU on bug 149641? Without the Gutsy task it does not appear in ubuntu-sru's list and the noise (users complaining) won't get less when waiting longer. The fix is quite simple and taken from upstream/Debian.
[18:19] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 149641 in logcheck "logcheck fails when auth.log.1.gz missing" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/149641
[18:19] <blueyed> It would be great if someone even would sponsor the upload right away.. :)
[18:29] <ScottK> blueyed: You ought to subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors to the bug if you haven't.
[18:30] <blueyed> ScottK: ok, done. I've thought that it would have to get approved by ubuntu-sru before..
[18:30] <blueyed> ..and the nomincation approved.
[18:30] <ScottK> blueyed: Ah.  Didn't realise it was an SRU.  Nevermind.
[18:30]  * ScottK should read more carefully.
[18:49] <PhinnFort> which package contains debugging symbols for dolphin?
[18:49] <PhinnFort> I'm experiencing some crashes related to the fish-protocol
[18:53] <ogra_cmpc> there are usually -dbg packages for all apps
[18:55] <PhinnFort> not dolphin, the default file manager in kubuntu
[18:55] <PhinnFort> so I suspect they've crumpled it together into kdebase-dbg or something
[18:56] <ogra_cmpc> yeah, kde packqaging is sometimes a bit confusing
[18:58] <PhinnFort> you don't say...
[18:59] <PhinnFort> partly blame on the kde devs, who send out large bundles with apps, which have to be split
[18:59] <ogra_cmpc> yeah
[19:08] <Amaranth> !debug
[19:08] <ubotu> For help debugging your program, please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
[19:08] <Amaranth> PhinnFort: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProgramCrash
[19:12] <PhinnFort> Amaranth: thanks
[20:10] <IntuitiveNipple> Anyone familiar with the inner workings of gtk+2.0, and object memory allocation (on x86_64) ?
[20:12] <slangasek> how "inner"?
[20:14] <IntuitiveNipple> very :) see my last comments on bug #124336 - there appears to be a random issue with the pointer returned by gtk_list_store_new() being invalid and causing a segfault. I'm building a modified gtk+2.0 now to try and pinpoint it, but was hoping to get some suggestions or clues as what to look for.
[20:14] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 124336 in network-manager-applet "nm-applet crashed with SIGSEGV in gtk_combo_box_set_model" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/124336
[20:15] <slangasek> IntuitiveNipple: I expect the problem is not that the pointer is invalid, but that it's being stored in an incorrect type; this is a common error
[20:16] <slangasek> IntuitiveNipple: particularly with gtk, which inherited a type system from gtk 1.2 where it was valid to use "int" and "GType" interchangeable
[20:16] <slangasek> y
[20:19] <IntuitiveNipple> Thanks... that makes sense based on my instinct, although I'm having a hard time finding an argument as to why it is so random
[20:19] <IntuitiveNipple> I was looking for 32-bit/64-bit size issues but not found any so far in nm-applet
[20:21] <IntuitiveNipple> I've just added a further comment which shows the pointer values returned by gtk_list_store_new() - does that give any clues?
[20:22] <slangasek> IntuitiveNipple: for starters, could you try using %p to print the pointer values instead of %lX?
[20:23] <IntuitiveNipple> I prefer lX when I'm not sure of the size of the values, but sure
[20:24] <slangasek> well, for one thing, %lX is a signed integer, which gives confusing output for pointers :)
[20:25] <IntuitiveNipple> Here's the output: http://pastebin.intuitivenipple.net/80
[20:26] <slangasek> fun
[20:27] <Chipzz> IntuitiveNipple: I think all hell would break loose if what you're saying is actually correct
[20:28] <IntuitiveNipple> Chipzz: Well, it's happening for quite a few people using 64-bit, but not for 32-bit... I've been seeing it for several months but assumed someone else had fixed it during development.
[20:29] <Chipzz> IntuitiveNipple: if what you're saying would be true, just about every gtk app in ubuntu would be crashing
[20:29] <Chipzz> so, not very likely :P
[20:29] <IntuitiveNipple> I'm not 'saying' anything yet, I'm looking at the symptoms and trying to pinpoint the fault
[20:31] <IntuitiveNipple> The essence of it is, the fault almost always occurs but seems less-frequent when there's debugging code inserted (which could imply a timing issue of some kind). First time I built a debug-version of nm-applet I couldn't get it to fail.
[20:34] <Company> IntuitiveNipple: i would blame gtk_list_store_set()
[20:35] <IntuitiveNipple> Company: Once I've got the debug libs ready, hopefully it'll shed some light on it
[20:44] <IntuitiveNipple> Company: There are some memcpy() calls that depend on a sizeof() in gtk_list_store_set_n_columns() - I'll keep an eye on them
[20:45] <Company> IntuitiveNipple: that and gtk_list_store_set is a varargs function
[20:45] <slangasek> IntuitiveNipple: har. prototype for wso_wpa_create_phase2_type_model is missing
[20:45] <slangasek> IntuitiveNipple: if you check the build log, I expect you'll see "warning: conversion makes pointer from integer without a cast"
[20:46] <IntuitiveNipple> you're kidding!?
[20:46] <Company> ouch
[20:46] <Company> missing include :(
[20:47] <slangasek> IntuitiveNipple: nope.  I just stepped through the code, wso_wpa_create_phase2_type_model returns the right value and then it gets corrupted in the assignment
[20:47] <slangasek> Company: missing prototype; there's no include in the tree that defines this function
[20:47] <IntuitiveNipple> Gotchya! well spotted
[20:48] <Company> slangasek: that's even worse
[20:48] <IntuitiveNipple> Hmmm, that doesn't explain why the value reported *inside* wso_wpa_create_phase2_type_model() is incorrect also when the segfault occurs
[20:48] <slangasek> AFAIK the segfault doesn't happen inside type_model() though?
[20:49] <IntuitiveNipple> No it doesn't, well not so far!
[20:49] <IntuitiveNipple> I'll add the prototype and see how we go. It doesn't surprise me since that function looks to be a copy/paste of wso_wpa_create_key_type_model()
[20:52] <IntuitiveNipple> I've added it to wso-private.h, now to test
[20:54] <slangasek> wso-wpa-eap.c: In function 'wso_wpa_eap_new':
[20:54] <slangasek> wso-wpa-eap.c:296: warning: implicit declaration of function 'wso_wpa_create_phase2_type_model'
[20:54] <slangasek> yep, there it is. :)
[20:54] <slangasek> wso-wpa-eap.c:296: warning: assignment makes pointer from integer without a cast
[20:56] <IntuitiveNipple> I missed that in all the fuzz. I'm so used to so many releases being shipped with warnings I rarely check them anymore
[20:56] <IntuitiveNipple> It seems to be working, I'll attach the patch to the bug report
[20:57] <slangasek> yep, looks fixed here too
[20:58] <IntuitiveNipple> Thanks for that... saved me a lot of messing about. I wonder why the pointers look different inside the function though.
[20:58] <slangasek> such as?
[20:59] <slangasek> as for shipping with warnings - yes, remembering to look for this stuff in build logs when dealing with 64-bit bugs is an important lesson, one I haven't yet internalized myself :)
[21:03] <IntuitiveNipple> slangasek: The pointers reported just prior to the segfault are like 0x2aaab003eeb0 whereas when it doesn't segfault they're like 0xcf9e10, and that is reported from *inside* wso_wpa_create_phase2_type_model()
[21:05] <slangasek> IntuitiveNipple: I'm pretty sure you'll find that those two values don't correspond to the same iteration
[21:06] <slangasek> 0x2aaab003eeb0 is a reasonable pointer value on amd64, but doesn't survive pointer->int->pointer conversion
[21:07] <slangasek> 0xcf9e10 is also a possible pointer value; it could also be a truncated value which happens to look saner than the others because it was sign-extended with 0s in the high bits instead of 1s
[21:09] <IntuitiveNipple> They're both 'proper' pointers without any conversion going on at the point they are reported (unless printf("... %p"...) is doing something
[21:10] <slangasek> ok. then mainly that just points to the allocation happening in different memory blocks each time, for no particular reason other than what memory was available at the time for use in malloc()
[21:10] <IntuitiveNipple> It seems to be fixed anyhow :) Yeah, somehow the allocation location being 'high' looked to be upsetting it
[21:11] <slangasek> sure, because that's the case where pointer->int->pointer breaks
[21:11] <slangasek> (specifically, it breaks whenever you have bits above bit 31 set)
[21:12] <IntuitiveNipple> is there a tag (for launchpad) along the lines of needs-packaging to notify the core-devs the package needs updating?
[21:12] <slangasek> (numbering the bits from 1, that is -- bits above 32 break because they're lost to truncation, bit 32 itself breaks because int->pointer results in sign extension)
[21:13] <slangasek> IntuitiveNipple: I believe the procedure is to prepare a package, send the debdiff to the bug, and subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors
[21:13] <tepsipakki> slangasek: hey, you have archive-admin powers? If you have time, would you care to do some syncs so xorg-server could get built?
[21:13] <slangasek> tepsipakki: afraid I don't have time at the moment
[21:13] <tepsipakki> slangasek: ok, no worries
[21:39] <gspr> If I have found a bug in a package, and a patch that at least works around it, should this be reported to Launchpad, or should I contact the package maintainer directly?
[21:40] <chowmeined> put the bug on launchpad and link it to the maintainer's bug tracker, then submit the patch to the maintainer
[21:41] <chowmeined> thats my guess
[23:44] <gcarrillo> hi
[23:49] <gcarrillo> general question: is installing the foo-dev packages the same as downloading the source for the foo project?
[23:50] <gcarrillo> such that by installing the foo-dev package, i can cd to a well known location in the filesystem to work on that proj's source?
[23:51] <slangasek> no
[23:51] <slangasek> -dev packages generally contain the headers, symlinks, and static libs that you need in order to develop /against/ the package in question
[23:51] <gcarrillo> oh i see
[23:52] <gcarrillo> oh right
[23:52] <gcarrillo> there should be a seperate package for the source i suppose
[23:53] <gcarrillo> thanks
[23:55] <gcarrillo> is there a channel for application development?
[23:55] <gcarrillo> i see that this is not it in the title ;)
[23:57] <slangasek> not an Ubuntu-centric one, that I know of
[23:57] <gcarrillo> i'll try ##linux-coders on this server
[23:57] <gcarrillo> looks about right