[00:39] <chowmeined> are there plans to adopt debian's new graphical installer for the alternate CDs?
[00:41] <Keybuk> mjg59: dial-up-support ... NM 0.7 ... win
[00:41] <Keybuk> chowmeined: that seems to defeat the *point* of the alternate CDs
[00:42] <chowmeined> really?
[00:42] <chowmeined> i dont use the alternate cd because its non-graphical.. i use it because it lets me setup raid and lvm
[00:42] <Keybuk> the alternate CD is intended for situations where the ordinary desktop CD isn't suitable
[00:42] <chowmeined> and of course it would still be an option to use the text installer.. just like the debian installer provides
[00:43] <chowmeined> exactly
[00:43] <chowmeined> like when i want raid and lvm
[00:43] <Keybuk> but making it graphical would make it unsuitable for "when graphical doesn't work"
[00:43] <chowmeined> hence the text mode option
[00:43] <Keybuk> the option would make it twice as hard to support
[00:43] <Keybuk> since we'd have to test it twice
[00:44] <Keybuk> text mode only means it works for both groups of users
[00:44] <Keybuk> you can still set up lvm and raid when it's text mode
[00:44] <chowmeined> well 2 times 0 is still 0
[00:44] <Keybuk> why zero?
[00:44] <chowmeined> by continuing the policy of not testing
[00:44] <Keybuk> what policy?
[00:44] <Keybuk> we *heavily* test all the CD images we release
[00:45] <chowmeined> well thats a different topic
[00:45] <Keybuk> we spend an extraordinary amount of time doing it
[00:45] <chowmeined> and most of the normal things work just fine
[00:46] <chowmeined> its excellent what is done
[00:46] <Keybuk> adding yet another permutation would make that job harder
[00:46] <Keybuk> especially when that permutation has limited value
[00:46] <chowmeined> but i still managed to rack up about 10 bugs since gutsy was released
[00:46] <Keybuk> sure, you get bugs
[00:46] <Keybuk> there's always bugs
[00:46] <chowmeined> yes
[00:46] <Keybuk> releasing bug-free software is impossible
[00:46] <chowmeined> it is
[00:46] <Keybuk> and, in fact, we don't even attempt to fix all the bugs we find
[00:46] <chowmeined> why not?
[00:47] <Keybuk> because sometimes fixing the bug is harder than releasing it
[00:47] <Keybuk> known bugs are better than unknown bugs
[00:47] <chowmeined> fair enough
[00:47] <pwnguin> hopefully the automated testing stuff will bring up some nice regression testing etc
[00:48] <chowmeined> then it would be good to remove the options which expose the bugs
[00:48] <chowmeined> like "Suspend" from the menu in gdm
[00:48] <Keybuk> a graphical installer on the alternate CD doesn't really have a use case
[00:48] <Keybuk> chowmeined: hmm, that works?
[00:48] <chowmeined> not on any computers ive tried it on (6)
[00:48] <Keybuk> works for me
[00:48] <Keybuk> suspend/resume is notorious
[00:48] <chowmeined> it works when im logged in, it works with pmi action suspend
[00:48] <chowmeined> but not from the gdm login screen
[00:49] <pwnguin> which is why its not supposed to show up if it doesnt think it can do it...
[00:49] <Keybuk> that's not a question about the installer though
[00:49] <Keybuk> since the installer doesn't use gdm
[00:49] <chowmeined> i changed topics
[00:49] <Keybuk> ah, I was yanking us back to the topic
[00:49] <chowmeined> i dont want to talk about the installer anymore
[00:49] <Keybuk> bugs go in http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu
[00:49] <chowmeined> because you made your point and it seems fai
[00:49] <chowmeined> fair*
[00:50] <chowmeined> i know where bugs go :) ... anyways its too late, ill save it for hardy
[00:50] <Keybuk> errr
[00:50] <Keybuk> saving the bug is a biiiit late :p
[00:50] <Keybuk> we're developing hardy *now*
[00:50] <pwnguin> hardy's open -- no CDs out yet of course
[00:50] <chowmeined> i realize this
[00:50] <chowmeined> no ISOs though
[00:50] <Keybuk> if you file the bug in six months time, after hardy is released, then it definitely won't get fixed for hardy
[00:50] <chowmeined> ill file it when alpha 1 comes out
[00:51] <Keybuk> why?
[00:51] <Keybuk> if you know the bug is already there, why not file it now?
[00:51] <chowmeined> because i dont know
[00:51] <chowmeined> its in gutsy.. but
[00:51] <Keybuk> if you don't file the bug ...
[00:51] <chowmeined> maybe they fixed the infrastructure issue
[00:51] <Keybuk> ... then how will anyone know to fix it?
[00:51] <pwnguin> chowmeined: you might appreciate the stuff liw is doing with automated testing. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekgutsy/AutoTests
[00:52] <chowmeined> somebody already reported the bug for gutsy.. i said my "me too".. and theres still no response
[00:52] <chowmeined> so ill wait for hardy
[00:52] <chowmeined> alphas
[00:52] <Keybuk> you didn't say it had been already reported :)
[00:52] <chowmeined> pwnguin, yea automated testing is nice, i tried using dogtail.. it was a pain
[00:53] <chowmeined> but i mean.. the theory is nice
[00:53] <chowmeined> getting a 'low' priority is a death sentence for bugs ..
[00:58] <chowmeined> so is it possible for me to test software before it is released in an ISO? can i just install single debs in gutsy from the hardy repo?
[00:59] <chowmeined> not core ones of course..
[00:59] <Keybuk> yes
[01:00] <Keybuk> Burgundavia: around?
[01:14] <Burgundavia> Keybuk: pong
[01:14] <Keybuk> Burgundavia: whatever happened to ubuntu demon and spamming planet about his killer hard drive of doom ?
[01:25] <sladen> Keybuk: maybe his hard drive died...?
[01:26] <Keybuk> sladen: I'm going to buy new shoes this week
[01:26] <Keybuk> you should come too
[01:26] <Keybuk> or you could have my old ones
[01:31] <sladen> Keybuk: touché
[01:44] <Keybuk> Burgundavia: does easy-ldap-server need another session?
[01:47] <Burgundavia> Keybuk: no
[01:47] <Keybuk> Burgundavia: let me reach for my figlet
[01:47] <Keybuk> COULD YOU SET IT AS DRAFTING THEN PLEASE
[01:47] <Keybuk> ;)
[01:48] <Burgundavia> I have no idea how it ended up on the uds-schedule
[01:48] <Keybuk> This topic was proposed by  nijaba  on 2007-10-01. It was previously marked "Accepted" for the agenda by  Rick Clark  11 hours ago.
[01:48] <Burgundavia> right
[01:50] <Burgundavia> declared informational and superceded
[03:56] <thully> hi - I'm trying to track down a bug by rebuilding git snapshots of my kernel, and after one build I'm getting a "debian/rules not found" error
[03:57] <thully> How do I get debian/rules back?  I need it to build proper kernel .debs...
[04:10] <imbrandon> is it not found or not executable ? iirc it needs to be set +x and the error looks similar
[04:10] <imbrandon> other than that do a new git co
[04:11] <imbrandon> Keybuk, you get stuck with the scheduling this time ? heh fun fun
[04:11] <mekius> bryce: did you happen to receive my message yesterday?
[04:18] <thully> imbrandon: it's not there at all, the last build simply ate the file...
[08:46] <sebastian^> good morning folks
[10:34] <gaspa> doko: ping
[12:21] <Kopfgeldjaeger> hi
[12:46]  * Hobbsee waves to fabbione
[12:46] <simira> morning fabbione
[12:46] <fabbione> hi ladies
[12:47] <simira> is Tollef still asleep or what?
[12:47] <fabbione> simira: dunno.. i am not at UDS
[12:48] <zul> hey fabbione
[12:48] <fabbione> hi zul
[12:48] <simira> fabbione: you're not? Why?
[12:49] <fabbione> simira: because i am not distro team anymore
[12:49] <fabbione> haven't been for the past 3 months or so
[12:49] <simira> fabbione: oh, I thought everyone was at the uds... so you're not going until next week, then?
[12:50] <fabbione> simira: i am flying out tomorrow for 2 days of vacation in Boston
[12:50] <fabbione> will meet the others next week
[12:50]  * fabbione needs to visit his grandma too
[12:50] <simira> fabbione: that sounds nice. Hmm, maybe I should get Tollef out of distro... :p
[12:51] <fabbione> simira: well he was not in San Fran a month ago :)
[12:51] <simira> fabbione: true, he was in Boston a month ago :p
[13:02] <lool> asac: Hey; I just prepared pango 1.19.0 and it does a good job at uglifiyng firefox' font rendering; we should take a look together
[13:05] <sladen> simira: haven't seen tollef yet
[13:06] <simira> sladen: he's online now. :)
[13:06] <simira> sladen: so, you got there in time, then
[13:07] <sladen> simira: just made it, even with the adventure involved :)
[13:08] <asac> lool: oh .. ok
[13:08] <pitti> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2007-August/024101.html
[13:08] <joejaxx> ok
[13:09] <calc> Hobbsee: good morning
[13:11] <Hobbsee> hiya calc!
[13:48] <warp10> pitti: May I query you?
[13:52] <jdstrand> mdz: fyi, rick just added ubuntu-firewall as the next session (9:50)
[13:53] <mdz> he emailed me, thanks
[13:54] <jdstrand> slangasek: fyi ubuntu-firewall is scheduled now (it just changed)
[13:56] <warp10> pitti: May I query you?
[13:58] <pitti> warp10: hey!
[13:58] <pitti> warp10: a bit unstable internet here, but go ahead
[14:20] <wasabi> Is there anyway to use dpkg to declare a Depends to a version number of some sort which is fixed for ubuntu release? For instance Depends: something (= 7.10)
[14:21] <wasabi> Actually, let me reverse that. I want to declare a Conflicts: distro (> 7.10)
[14:22] <mjg59> No
[14:22] <mjg59> Conflict on the package that provides the functionality you conflict with
[14:22] <wasabi> Problems is that isn't known yet.
[14:22] <wasabi> I think I'd have to explain the entire problem domain for this to make sense.
[14:23] <wasabi> mjg59: I'm thinking about the case of how third party software (closed source perhaps) might distribute .deb files for use on Ubuntu in a way as to ensure their customers have the best experience.
[14:24] <wasabi> That is, their software has been tested on feisty, but they aren't willing to commit to running it on gutsy, yet.
[14:25] <mjg59> wasabi: No, there's no mechanism for doing that, and we won't add one
[14:26] <mjg59> You can check /etc/lsb-release at runtime and warn the user that it's unsupported
[14:27] <wasabi> Hmm.
[14:27] <wasabi> Yeah, that's probably a decent way. Do you see what I'm trying to accomplish though? I'd like the update manager to tell the user he can't update to gutsy until he addresses the closed source package.
[14:27] <wasabi> As in, either updates it to a version that supports gutsy, or removes it.
[14:28] <mjg59> No, that's the wrong solution
[14:28] <mjg59> There's no plausible way for an application to only work on feisty unless it fails to declare its depends properly or unless we've screwed up
[14:28] <wasabi> Sure there is.
[14:28] <wasabi> Consider vmware.
[14:28] <mjg59> That's not a feisty/gutsy issue.
[14:29] <wasabi> Hmm perhaps.
[14:29] <wasabi> You're right.
[14:29] <mjg59> I can replace the kernel on feisty
[14:29] <Amaranth> you can use the feisty kernel on gutsy too
[14:29] <wasabi> Yeah, okay, you win there.
[14:29] <mjg59> Yeah
[14:29] <wasabi> I guess it'd be fine if I could believe Ubuntu would never break ABI or something. =)
[14:29] <mjg59> One thing we could do would be to have the kernel do Provides: vmware-modules
[14:30] <mjg59> Or something
[14:30] <mjg59> And then have vmware depend on that
[14:30] <wasabi> Eh. Vmware's software would not be able to alter your packages.
[14:30] <wasabi> At least, that's my assumption.
[14:30] <mjg59> Correct
[14:30] <mjg59> It's a change we'd have to make
[14:31] <wasabi> Hmm. So I guess VMware would need runtime logic to detect the missing modules and install the appropiate package.
[14:31] <wasabi> That's really the only solution I can see.
[14:31] <mjg59> No?
[14:31] <wasabi> Well, how would it then?
[14:31] <mjg59> Well, sure, for the current versions we're boned
[14:31] <wasabi> What would you suggest going forward then?
[14:32] <mjg59> Enhance our kernel packages to provide: the functionality they provide that other things may depend on
[14:32] <wasabi> I don't see how that helps.
[14:32] <mjg59> Oh, wait. We do that already.
[14:32] <wasabi> Uh huh.
[14:32] <mjg59> wasabi: So vmware does depends: vmware-modules
[14:32] <wasabi> Okay, let me rephrase my question.
[14:33] <wasabi> I'm talking from teh POV of Joe Blow ISV.
[14:33] <wasabi> I have some software I want to distribute for Ubuntu.
[14:33] <wasabi> I'm not going to be able to convinc eyou guys to add stuff to your kernel packages.
[14:33] <mjg59> If you depend on a specific kernel module ABI, then yes, it is
[14:33] <wasabi> Well, VMware again is the best case.
[14:34] <wasabi> I doubt you'll want to add their kernel modules to your packages.
[14:34] <wasabi> I doubt they'd want you to... as it would mean they couldn't deploy updates.
[14:34] <mjg59> Right. So, where do the modules come from?
[14:34] <wasabi> VMware's own apt repository.
[14:34] <mjg59> So I'm struggling to see the issue
[14:34] <mjg59> If the user has the correct modules and kernel installed, they can run vmware
[14:35] <mjg59> So vmware should just depend on them
[14:35] <wasabi> Uh huh. Which correct ones?
[14:35] <mjg59> Whichever ones the package requires
[14:35] <wasabi> If feisty has 3 kernel versions available. I need 3 module packages available.
[14:35] <mjg59> No. The user could boot any one of them.
[14:35] <mjg59> You only need one of them.
[14:35] <wasabi> Yeah, exactly.
[14:35] <wasabi> Eh?
[14:35] <mjg59> If I have 2.6.20 and 2.6.22 installed, I only need vmware modules for one of them
[14:35] <mjg59> Because if I want to run vmware, I can reboot into 2.6.20
[14:36] <wasabi> No, you need vmware modules for whichever you want to use at the given time.
[14:36] <mjg59> No.
[14:36] <wasabi> Wait you're suggesting we force users to reboot into old feisty kernel versions?
[14:36] <wasabi> That's silly.
[14:36] <mjg59> No, I'm saying they can reboot into an old version
[14:36] <mjg59> So it's a runtime issue, not a package dependency
[14:36] <wasabi> I know that.
[14:37] <wasabi> Which is why I originally suggested that the vmware program At Runtime, detect that you're missing the modules for whatever kernel you're running.
[14:37] <mjg59> Ah, right. That's an orthogonal issue.
[14:37] <mjg59> You should still have the dependency in the packaging system
[14:37] <wasabi> Oh, yes. The specific Vmware-modules packages should depend on the specific Ubuntu kernel package.
[14:37] <mjg59> But yes, beyond that it's a runtime concern
[14:38] <wasabi> And VMware should depend on something all 3 provide.
[14:38] <wasabi> But at runtime a bit of checking has to go into making sure they are actually installed.
[14:38] <wasabi> Okay, kernel modules probably aren't the best example to start this off with.
[14:38] <mjg59> Well, whether or not /dev/vmware exists
[14:39] <mjg59> Or vmmon, or whatever it is
[14:39] <wasabi> Yeah. Whatever.
[14:39]  * mjg59 goes to change session
[14:39] <wasabi> My main concern is how to properly instruct the user that he should not update to gutsy until he updates some program.
[14:39] <wasabi> Or simply not to, and let his program break.
[14:40] <wasabi> There is sort of a dependency between a piece of software and 'gutsy'. The dependency exists because Ubuntu has committed to 6 month stable releases. It's provided something to depend on.
[14:47] <sladen> there's the kernel abi-versioning dependances that red-hat use
[15:00] <traene> Hi. I am looking for help for file locking.
[15:02] <Chipzz> traene: please read topic
[15:03] <traene> sry
[15:21] <gribouille> hi
[15:22] <gribouille> why isn't there a Contents-i386.gz file in http://archive.canonical.com/ubuntu/dists/gutsy/ ?
[15:43] <Riddell> mjg59: about?
[15:43] <mjg59> Riddell: Yo
[15:43] <Riddell> able to join us in room A briefly?
[15:43] <mjg59> Sure
[15:43] <mjg59> Give me a sec
[16:19] <Adri2000> soren: now pbuilder builds successfully
[16:32] <soren> Adri2000: You are right. I'll upload later today.
[16:53] <Burgundavia> keybuk_: I don;t seem to be included ont eh agenda. Can you pull a new csv from LP?
[16:53] <Burgundavia> the attendees
[18:09] <tuxmaster1988> Does the ATI X1300 have hardware acceleration under ubuntu?
[18:15] <sharkp> hi
[18:15] <sharkp> Maybe I've found a bug in the kernelù
[18:16] <sharkp> I've a laptop with two sata hd+
[18:16] <sharkp> but I can't see (on gutsy) them
[18:16] <sharkp> I think there's a problem between kernel and sata controller
[18:17] <sharkp> and I need to know how module I have to load manually
[18:17] <sharkp> would you see my lshw?
[18:18] <sharkp> oh, guys, here we are in 244
[18:18] <sharkp> isn't there anyone who reply me?
[18:20] <slangasek> this is not a user support channel; see the topic and ask in #ubuntu?
[18:20] <sharkp> slangasek:  I can read
[18:20] <sharkp> IMO it's a bug
[18:20] <Burgundavia> this is also not a bug support channel
[18:21] <Burgundavia> if it si bug, it goes int eh bug tracker
[18:21] <sharkp> and, always IMO, this is a developement chanmnelù
[18:21] <Burgundavia> if you have a solution for the bug, please include that in the bug
[18:21] <sharkp> Burgundavia: is it so expensive for you to reply me?
[18:21] <sharkp> and to know my problem?
[18:21] <slangasek> "how do I load a module" is not a development question, nor is "what information do you need for a bug report"
[18:22] <sharkp> ok, I've understood this is a nerd-chan
[18:22] <sharkp> Excuse me for my noob opinion
[18:22] <sharkp> good work
[18:22] <Burgundavia> that was fun
[18:22] <Burgundavia> hey jo
[18:22] <Burgundavia> jono:
[18:23] <slangasek> I wonder if nerd-chan is anything like Super Milk-Chan
[18:23] <Burgundavia> can I be part of that?
[18:23] <Burgundavia> I feel very left out
[18:24] <Pici> Ugh.  I told him to ask about the issue in #ubuntu. Not come bother people in #ubuntu-devel.
[18:25] <slangasek> Pici: well we're not particularly bothered, but everyone's at UDS and he's not going to /find/ the help he needs in here right now no matter how much he insists :)
[18:35] <lool> Are recommends honored when germinating?
[18:36] <Skiessi> can someone update libtorrent10 and rtorrent packages of the hardy repository? or should I ask in #ubuntu-motu?
[18:39]  * ogra1 wonders if hardy is actually in a usable state yet
[18:40] <Skiessi> I'm using feisty, gutsy and hardy repositories and it's working great
[18:41]  * ogra1 shudders
[18:43] <Burgundavia> Skiessi: please don't recommend such ideas
[18:43] <Skiessi> I don't recommend such ideas
[18:44] <Skiessi> at least not for developers
[19:07] <Mithrandir> StevenK: can you give me a sloccount of modest?
[19:10] <StevenK> Mithrandir: Er, sure.
[19:12] <StevenK> Mithrandir: Total Physical Source Lines of Code (SLOC)                = 53,329
[19:13] <wasabi> Frickin'. /.ing launchpad.
[19:13] <Keybuk> ;)
[19:13] <Keybuk> I blame ubuntu-demon
[19:14] <superm1> Keybuk, is it too late to regenerate the schedule for the rest of the night?  bryce updated his spec to be 'drafting' now
[19:14] <wasabi> And finding somebody to blame is the most satisfying solution!
[19:15] <Keybuk> superm1: yes
[19:15] <superm1> :(
[19:18] <Mithrandir> StevenK: ok, thanks.  That's not that bad..
[19:21] <coder> hi
[20:21] <soren> Adri2000: I haven't forgotten, by the way... :)
[20:35] <Mithrandir> hm, why does bzr say 'No loggers found for logger "bzr"' when I commit something?
[21:21] <davf_> Can anyone tell me how I can patch just one kernel module without having to recompile the whole kernel?
[21:23] <Keybuk> mjg59: still hasn't gone up ;)
[21:24] <davf_> ?
[21:24] <jonmasters> sladen: ping
[21:24] <davf_> Can anyone tell me how I can patch just one kernel module without having to recompile the whole kernel?
[21:24] <sladen> jonmasters: hi capt fat
[21:24] <sladen> hile:
[21:25] <davf_> Please?
[21:25] <jonmasters> sladen: you in town?
[21:25] <sladen> jonmasters: ABI versioning came up earlier, if BenC is aorund, that might be something to discuss
[21:25] <jonmasters> davf_: do you have a kernel source tree prebuilt, or not?
[21:25] <sladen> jonmasters: yes, one street away from you MUWAHAHAHAH
[21:25] <warsocket> I promised this to the head of PackageKit to ask you guys this question
[21:25] <warsocket> so here it goues: What do you guys think about checkinstall;
[21:26] <jonmasters> sladen: I have some stuff to get done tonight debugging something, but it'd be nice to say hi. Are you around now?
[21:26] <sladen> jonmasters: however, after just 5 meals at this hotel, I can tell why all americans I somewhat large
[21:26] <davf_> jonmasters: I just installed gutsy on this machine and started d/l kernel build packages
[21:26] <sladen> jonmasters: for some value of round.
[21:26] <jonmasters> sladen: I'm 164lbs now.
[21:26] <jonmasters> sladen: size 29". I was size 38" when I moved here and when you last saw me.
[21:27] <jonmasters> sladen: shall I head over and say hello now?
[21:27] <davf_> jonmasters: last time I did this for Feisty I rebuilt the kernel but I don't remember what I did and I want to avoid doing the same thing again if pos.
[21:27] <jonmasters> davf_: you can hack the source for a given module, make sure the .config is in place (do an make oldconfig if needed) then run make against just a given directory.
[21:28] <jonmasters> make drivers/path/to/foo/foo.ko
[21:28] <jonmasters> sladen: are you at the hotel now?
[21:29] <sladen> jonmasters: we should finished at 18:00
[21:29] <sladen> jonmasters: if you waddle your 82kg into a car and drive down the block you should have found somewhere to park by that time
[21:30] <davf_> jonmasters: ok so I got build-essentials linux-source and kernel-package. Any thing else?
[21:30] <davf_> jonmasters: btw what is the source dir?
[21:31] <davf_> jonmasters: nevermind found it.
[21:32] <davf_> jonmasters: so I need to untar linux-source where it is yea?
[21:39] <bddebian> Heya
[21:39] <lamego> hey bd
[21:39] <bddebian> Hi lam
[21:39] <bddebian> Grr, lamego
[21:40] <lamego> :P
[22:01] <davf_> jonmasters: so to do the make on a patched module only when I type make in that dir it says no targets. what should the target name be (recompilig zd1211rw)
[22:02] <davf_> Or if anyone else can advise?
[22:13] <davf_> Anyone can help me. I just want to "make" one kernel module that I needed to patch how do I do it?
[22:13] <davf_> I did make oldconfig
[22:14] <davf_> went to the dir and tried make and got no target
[22:43] <mekius> Hi, working on a custom live cd, I updated the kernel that sits in the squashfs and attempted to copy the kernel and initrd to the live cd in /casper/vmlinuz and /casper/initrd.gz respectively, but the initrd doesn't seem to contain the squashfs module.  I looked in /lib/module/2.6.22-14-generic/ and there is an ubuntu dir and that has the squashfs module in it, but this doesn't get pulled into the initrd image, any pointers?
[23:27] <tekteen> can someone help me with my preseed file? It does not answer the questions but I do not get an error that it can't find the preseed. The file is pasted at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/42757/
[23:33] <tekteen> can someone help me with my preseed file? It does not answer the questions but I do not get an error that it can't find the preseed. The file is pasted at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/42757/