[08:19] <kraut> moin
[11:40] <fluo> hello
[11:40] <fluo> !
[13:24] <cris> hi, everybody
[14:37] <fluo> hi! there's a meeting for ubuntu artwork today right?
[14:37] <melaren> fluo, hehe, I think so, that's why I'm here.
[14:38] <fluo> good
[14:38] <nothlit> i don't know if its in here or the art channel
[14:38] <fluo> it here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Meetings
[14:41] <nothlit> i maintain that page lol, theres no channel specified in the email
[14:42] <fluo> As decided in the last meeting the next meeting will occur around November 1st at 15:00 UTC in freenode channel #ubuntu-meeting. Check here later for more exact details.
[14:43] <nothlit> i maintain that page, i just fixed the time/date and convertor link, left the channel
[14:43] <nothlit> its not in fridge so..
[14:44] <fluo> yes it is
[14:44] <fluo> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1138
[14:44] <fluo> shit i didn't see the source
[14:44] <fluo> I'm going to shut up now... :/
[15:08] <melare2> Isn't the meeting supposed to start now?
[15:09] <thorwil> yes. but the man isn't here, yet ;)
[15:10] <melare2> thorwil: ok, cool, just checking :)
[15:15] <thorwil> melare2, just learned it happens 1 hour later
[15:20] <terr1en> salut fluo  !
[15:20] <sam7> hello, i hope i'm on the good meeting for ubuntu hardy heron
[15:20] <fluo> yop terr1en
[15:21] <terr1en> fluo: on parle de quoi ici ?
[15:43] <fluo> plop Zic[Laptop]  / Zic
[15:50] <ubuntu> ping
[15:57] <clemen1> ping
[15:58] <woodwizzle> pong
[15:59] <clemen1> ping
[15:59] <Mithrandir> clemen1: this is not a test channel, please stop treating it as such
[16:01] <terr1en> Mithrandir: yes sir ! Yo fluo how are you men ? Wazaaa !!!
[16:01] <fluo> :)
[16:14] <terr1en> mark are you here ?
[16:19] <melare1> so...
[16:25] <fluo> is somebody actually sure there's a meeting?
[16:26] <thorwil> fluo, yes, there will be one at 17:00 utc
[16:26] <fluo> in 30min then right?
[16:28] <kwwii> fluo: yes, in 30 min
[16:28] <fluo> ok
[16:39] <terr1en> mark ?
[16:40] <terr1en> mark je t'aime !
[17:00] <kwwii> hi all
[17:00] <woodwizzle> Howdy
[17:00] <thorwil> hola
[17:00] <kwwii> sorry for the time mess up
[17:01] <kwwii> hi andreasn
[17:01] <andreasn> hi kwwii!
[17:01] <kwwii> who all is here for the meeting so far?
[17:02] <melare1> I
[17:02] <woodwizzle> I too
[17:02] <thorwil> !
[17:02] <fluo> me too
[17:02] <melare1> kwii: I have to leave in 15-20 minutese
[17:02] <djzhan> MENU -p5 ADD FServe
[17:02] <kwwii> ok, let's go then
[17:03] <kwwii> we had a meeting at UDS today
[17:04] <kwwii> and talked about the form of the art team and how we lead the process
[17:04] <kwwii> let me find a wikipage
[17:06] <kwwii> in the meantime let's start with the first point
[17:06] <kwwii> Moving forward with the gallery art.ubuntu.com plans
[17:06] <kwwii> we have three options
[17:07] <kwwii> make a new art.ubuntu.com, user an existing platform like ubuntu-art.org or don't do one and leave that part to the forum
[17:07] <kwwii> and ideas on that?
[17:08] <nothlit> well doing the digg-like sort of thing with a portal and feedback with wip "threads" would be interesting of matthew could really do that
[17:08] <Misosaki> Can you please clarify the 3rd option?
[17:08] <woodwizzle> I've never been a big fan of ubuntu-art.org and gnome-look, kde-look type layouts.
[17:08] <kwwii> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArtTeam here are notes from the meeting, btw
[17:08] <nothlit> in terms of official stuff i don't see a point as the wiki seems like an ok way to do it given work, for random submissions just point people to ubuntu-art.com
[17:09] <andreasn> woodwizzle: what do you think are the drawbacks?
[17:09] <kwwii> Misosaki: we could just use the forum as some form of gallery
[17:09] <thorwil> might be good if he art section of the forum could be focused on the tools, how to do stuff type questions
[17:09] <lassegul> The idea with the digg thing could trigger an idea of the number one "dugg" will be default wallpaper. This could pose problems if kwwii picks the number three dugg.
[17:09] <kwwii> thorwil: that is how I see the aim of the forum, but I thought I should bring it up as it is a valid option
[17:10] <melare1> It would be nice to use the forum to attract attention, but it would be nice for it to link everyone to the art page
[17:10] <nothlit> lassegul: hemhem see bullet point 3 in the meeting notes =p
[17:10] <Misosaki> kwwii: Thanks. Ah. Organisation wouldn't be an issue? Things might get buried, hard to "mix/match", etc.
[17:10] <kwwii> melare1: It is linked, iirc
[17:10] <nothlit> i don't like the forums, the barrier of entry is actually <too low>
[17:10] <fluo> i'd rather see it out of the forum, it's a bit too messy in there to have a clear view of the artworks
[17:10] <kwwii> Misosaki: another worry of mine with using the forum, it was get easily lost
[17:10] <woodwizzle> andreasn: the way they're organized and the way searching works etc. It always seems to take me a bit longer than I expect to find what i'm lookin' for
[17:11] <nothlit> people need incentive to join wiki, mailing list etc
[17:11] <kwwii> officialy, the wiki and the mailing list are the ways the final art selections will be done
[17:11] <nothlit> and that brings people more likely to be constructive, forums naturally bring a lot of complainers because its only for yakking in the first place
[17:12] <kwwii> but if the forum can attract new artists we should not ignore their contributions
[17:12] <andreasn> nothlit: I think we can tell people in the forums what our process for doing stuff is, if they are not comfortable with that, then, sorry
[17:13] <kwwii> in any case, I know that putting some prearranged info up on a wiki page is not hard for everyone so there are quite a few people who could help - just send an email to the list
[17:14] <andreasn> so, we could have a sticky thread in the forums where we tell people how stuff works, the process etc.
[17:14] <woodwizzle> that sounds good
[17:14] <thorwil> sticky thread++
[17:14] <andreasn> that way we would avoid much of the confusion that is currently there
[17:14] <lassegul> +1
[17:14] <kwwii> erm, we forgot to start the bot
[17:15] <kwwii> can several people get a log of this meeting?
[17:15] <nothlit> andreasn: a shift into forums means a shift into more pandemonium, places meant to get things done bring a proportionate amount of people who come to do so
[17:15] <thorwil> kwwii, i'm logging
[17:15] <kwwii> thorwil: excellent
[17:15] <andreasn> well, I don't think we would push the actual communication, more communicating between the wiki/mailing-list and the forum better
[17:16] <kwwii> another idea that we had was to make a flickr group
[17:16] <nothlit> unless we have some sort of launchpad team integrated private forums
[17:16] <Misosaki> Heard there were downsides to art.ubuntu.com, but if the subdomain were maintained so it looks more like an integral part of the whole Ubuntu thing instead of some separate site off somewhere else ... not sure what is wrong with a cms where all the documentation would be as well as the gallery
[17:16] <nothlit> kwwii: a photostream of progress would be a good idea even in general
[17:17] <kwwii> Misosaki: we could use the ubuntu template
[17:17] <Misosaki> So wiki + gallery under the same domain if possible, but tightly integrated if not
[17:17] <kwwii> nothlit: right
[17:17] <lassegul> the forum sticky is a good idea as long as it also tries to redirect people to the wiki, and we have some poeple who gather artwork from there and put it on the wiki.
[17:18] <nothlit> have there been people posting hardy-specific things to the forum and neglecting the wiki?
[17:18] <lassegul> Not yet I think
[17:18] <thorwil> nothlit, kinda
[17:18] <Misosaki> kwwii: Can the template be tweaked enough to suit the art needs, to maintain consistency with the rest of the Ubuntu programme?
[17:18] <kwwii> I think that if we decide to do art.ubuntu.com we find the people to actually set it up and keep it running
[17:19] <thorwil> nothlit, there are some hacks in the hardy is a new bird or what the thread was called
[17:20] <sam7> It was a goo idea to create art.ubuntu.com
[17:20] <lassegul> oh yeah i forgot about that one.
[17:20] <kwwii> Misosaki: I think we could tweak some things without too much work
[17:20] <kwwii> I have the template with everything in layers, etc.
[17:21] <Misosaki> kwwii: Okay ... if we can work with what there is already, it'll save some energy that could be put into the content
[17:22] <sam7> i hope the francophone forums are listening by the english forums (sorry,i didn't speeck english werry well)
[17:23] <kwwii> ok, I will make a proposal for that option and send an email to the list so that we can see who steps up to work on it
[17:23] <Misosaki> The key things, imvho, is that the documentation is there, that it is clear to potential artists and the rest of the community, and that the community will know where to go to see everything or say their peace of mind
[17:23] <melare2> can I just put a few ideas out there, I have to get to class.
[17:24] <kwwii> melare1: please do
[17:24] <melare2> We could work with the marketing team to test artwork ideas on focus groups.  Results from the focus groups could be factored into the final decision and weighted a little heavier than the website vote.  This would help us reach our actual target market, instead of relying only on forum/Digg members.  ...and it wouldn't be that hard if this was done at a university, of course it depends whether this would be part of our targ
[17:24] <melare2> What if we had the voting window last one month for each batch of uploaded artwork.  Then we would have a regular sampling of what people like, and the artists would have feedback each month during the dev process.  Digg could be used to help attract attention.
[17:24] <melare2> We should have a way to notify people who have uploaded images that don't jive with the guidelines. If their image doesn't fit the guidelines and if they want to be considered for inclusion, they should know that changes will have to be made.
[17:25] <lassegul> melare2, i think you might be forgetting that our target audience isnt our exsisting users.
[17:25] <andreasn> so regarding focus groups, I think that could be really hard to do
[17:25] <Misosaki> That ... and having the art contents organised and presented so it is easy to see both details and the overall picture.
[17:25] <nothlit> lol, we don't have any resources like that
[17:25] <kwwii> melare2: I think it would be hard to find enough people to do a decent survey with the limited funds we would get to do it
[17:26] <melare2> well would a college campus contain our target market
[17:26] <sam7> i hope in ubuntu 8.04 LTS, there was the Elephant thème, icones and GDM by default (brown for Ubuntu & blue for Kubuntu)
[17:26] <Misosaki> Is that really our target market though, melare2?
[17:26] <melare2> because most of the people surveyed there wouldn't be ubuntu members
[17:27] <thorwil> is the target audience limited in any way?
[17:27] <melare2> I think the problem is, we haven't defined our target marke
[17:27] <Misosaki> lols
[17:27] <woodwizzle> Isn't our target market, people with computers?
[17:27] <melare2> I've heard talk about it, but it  has never been defined
[17:27] <kwwii> melare2: if you are interested in this I would suggest talking to the usability and perhaps QA teams
[17:28] <melare2> ok
[17:28] <kwwii> melare2: can you send an email to the list with a suggestion?
[17:28] <sam7> i see you dont speek a lot of thefutur LTS
[17:28] <melare2> the art mailing list?  ...sorry I'm a little new to the process
[17:28] <kwwii> in the end, the final decision rests in the hands of a few people but getting good info to make a good decision is a good idea :-)
[17:29] <melare2> right
[17:29] <melare2> I think it is really important to get more feedback to the art team
[17:29] <andreasn> melare2: have you used a mailing list before?
[17:29] <nothlit> melare2: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Documentation/GetInvolved
[17:29] <sam7> i've got somes ideas, but in french... so, i can give them to you, if you want...
[17:29] <melare2> the way it worked last time, was people saw the final and complained
[17:29] <melare2> we need to get feedback all along the way
[17:29] <andreasn> melare2: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
[17:30] <nothlit> melare2: feedback wouldn't have helped. they would have had no say
[17:30] <sam7> and have a look on the french forum... there are lots of good suggestions
[17:30] <kwwii> melare2: actually we seem to be at about 60% for the "like it" crowd
[17:30] <kwwii> I agree that we could improve though
[17:31] <kwwii> and the changes that we have planned might well surpise a lot of people
[17:31] <melare2> nothlit: true, but simple suggestions like "it is too dark" could have been heard earlier
[17:31] <melare2> thus, giving kwii more time
[17:31] <nothlit> simple fixes are just a click away in gimp =p
[17:32] <woodwizzle> Are we talkin' about the elephant wallpaper?
[17:32] <melare2> default
[17:32] <melare2> Ok, sorry to interrupt.  I just wanted to get a few things out ther
[17:32] <nothlit> kwwii: whats the next topic?
[17:32] <kwwii> melare2: I think that you might have a good idea but I guess more info would be needed
[17:33] <melare2> I'll try to type up a more coherent proposal
[17:33] <Misosaki> So what's the verdict on the gallery system before we move on?
[17:33] <kwwii> melare2: great, thanks
[17:33] <kwwii> Misosaki: I think that we should announce our intention to do it this way and ask for people to set it up and run it
[17:34] <Misosaki> kwwii: Okay :)
[17:34] <kwwii> Misosaki: with this option we have to get people to actually do it before we can start doing it :-)
[17:34] <Misosaki> True lols
[17:34] <andreasn> kwwii: I think it sounds good
[17:35] <kwwii> next item
[17:35] <kwwii> Defining concise design and palette ideas for Hardy
[17:35] <kwwii> we've come close to finalizing this stuff
[17:36] <kwwii> there should be much more info coming soon
[17:36] <fluo> will the horrible brown and orange palette will stay?
[17:36] <fluo> :-)
[17:37] <woodwizzle> as fas as brown and orange goes, I could take it or leave it.
[17:37] <kwwii> here is some stuff I started (which is already somewhat updated) - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Artwork/Incoming/HardyDesign
[17:37] <kwwii> s/updated/outdated
[17:38] <woodwizzle> I think orange on black is a great idea. Do you mean to go with a dark theme like Ubuntu Studio?
[17:38] <lassegul>  The idea is also to have a darker gtk theme
[17:38] <andreasn> woodwizzle: if it works out, yes
[17:39] <thorwil> dark themes clash with the many, many bright websites. that kind of large area contrast is hard on th eyes
[17:39] <woodwizzle> That could be very cool. I've seen some very good lookin' dark GTK themes
[17:39] <thorwil> or office documents
[17:39] <kwwii> another part of Hardy will be the face browser, it might work very well
[17:39] <andreasn> thorwil: yeah, that could be a drawback, could be fixable with fixing the colors on certain applications though
[17:40] <nothlit> is this a 3d compositing only one or a real theme?
[17:40] <kwwii> I'll make an annoucnement with newer info in a day or two
[17:40] <andreasn> we did some tests with gedit that looked ok if the white was a bit darker tint
[17:40] <lassegul> nothlit, facebrowser or dark gtk heme?
[17:40] <kwwii> nothlit: it will be a composting thing with a fallback
[17:41] <kwwii> so we will still use the normal gdm
[17:41] <Mithrandir> mmm, brown, composted images.
[17:41] <calc> i saw a bug thread on forums that since studio uses black/gray it is sometimes hard to tell what is greyed out as not an option versus gray by the theme
[17:41] <Misosaki> Hate to ask ... but can we safely assume that all of those sample images are "officially sanctioned"?
[17:42] <woodwizzle> calc, I think that is an error in the way that particular theme handles graying out items
[17:42] <lassegul> calc, we'll have to consider all these things, but they can all be fixed to some extent.ø
[17:42] <kwwii> calc: it is a matter of getting the theme done right :-)
[17:42] <andreasn> Misosaki: like from a copyright standpoint?
[17:42] <woodwizzle> I would really like the default wallpaper to be something besides abstract swirls this time around.
[17:42] <calc> kwwii: yea, just mentioning something not to forget about ;)
[17:42] <Misosaki> Since they've been posted up as a kind of starting point?
[17:42] <kwwii> Misosaki: we are getting really close to being able to say that, yet
[17:42] <kwwii> yes
[17:42] <nothlit> andreasn: like from a sabdfl "i like that for ubuntu" standpoint =p
[17:43] <Misosaki> andreasn: No, from a visual standpoint of the client(s)
[17:43] <woodwizzle> I think the alternate elephant background was a great new idea and on the right track
[17:43] <andreasn> nothlit: ah, yes, he gave thumbs up on it
[17:43] <kwwii> Misosaki: give us a day or two to get the newest stuff out
[17:43] <Misosaki> Yeah, like nothlit says, to put it bluntly lols
[17:43] <Misosaki> kwwii: Okay, thanks. Just checking.
[17:43] <musashi> !ubotu schedule
[17:43] <ubotu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
[17:45] <kwwii> ok, last item
[17:45] <kwwii> we are changing everything (and I mean everything) and we need all the help we can get
[17:45] <kwwii> so....
[17:46] <fluo> define everything
[17:46] <lassegul> fluo, gtk icons, wallpaper, metacity gdm usplash
[17:47] <woodwizzle> splash screens? Pidgin Smilies?
[17:47] <lassegul> fluo, your underwear! :O
[17:47] <andreasn> pidgin smilies are pretty good upstream though :)
[17:47] <Misosaki> lol
[17:47] <lassegul> :)
[17:47] <calc> oh yea and OOo!
[17:47] <fluo> :D
[17:47] <kwwii> install screen, usplash, gdm/face broswer, Desktop Wallpaper, GTK theme, colors, metacity/emerald theme, icons, splash screens
[17:48] <fluo> ok so I can keep my dirty underwears
[17:48] <kwwii> we are going to be needing as much help with packaging and coding as we can get
[17:49] <andreasn> and also with making sure the wiki is up to date
[17:49] <calc> i can help on packaging as long as you beat^Wremind me about it
[17:50] <kwwii> calc: cool, I'll hold you to your word ;-)
[17:51] <nothlit> kwwii: do we have an actual concept besides the look? has sabdfl given us any keywords etc?
[17:51] <Zic> I have a question about a piece of ubuntu artwork, the gnome splash was disabled in Gutsy, why ?
[17:51]  * calc brb
[17:51] <Zic> Hardy do the same ?
[17:51] <Burgundavia> Zic: because it was supposed to just go away
[17:51] <kwwii> nothlit: I still have to make up the keywords :-)
[17:51] <Burgundavia> but upstream GNOME has not yet gotten around to that
[17:52] <kwwii> Zic: because it took longer to load it than to display it
[17:53] <kwwii> ok, it seems that we are through all the points
[17:53] <nothlit> what we need is a schedule if we want people to be able to contribute the base idea, it will take a lot of time to build around it
[17:53] <kwwii> anyone have any other business?
[17:53] <Zic> ok, thanks for your answers
[17:54] <woodwizzle> is kde4 gonna be out before hardy?
[17:54] <calc> yes but not the default
[17:54] <woodwizzle> if so we could maybe base the icons on the oxygen theme
[17:54] <kwwii> woodwizzle: there will be extra CDs available with kde4
[17:54] <Zic> KDE 4.0 is not considered by KDE developers as a real release
[17:55] <Zic> so, not shiped in Hardy by default :)
[17:55] <kwwii> 4.0 will be included in hardy+1
[17:55] <woodwizzle> I'm not at all interested in KDE, just the oxygen theme ;)
[17:55] <kwwii> hehe, thanks...good to hear you like it
[17:55] <Zic> Tango or Oxygen ... that's the question I'm thinking about :)
[17:55] <Zic> (for my Desktop)
[17:56] <Zic> hehe
[17:56] <andreasn> Zic: well, tango in gnome, oxygen in kde
[17:56] <Zic> or the opposite
[17:56] <Zic> I like both ... and I use GNOME ;)
[17:57] <kwwii> ok, seems like we are finished here
[17:57] <andreasn> yep
[17:57] <kwwii> thorwil: can you send an email to the list and to myself with the log?
[17:58] <Zic> kwwii: oh, last question : about sound theme, is it the ArtWorkTeam ?
[17:58] <kwwii> Zic: we can work in that area as well, yes
[17:59] <fluo> speaking of this, will PulseAudio be integrated in Hard?
[17:59] <Zic> kwwii: any plan to change sound theme for Hardy too ?
[17:59] <fluo> hardy*
[18:00] <kwwii> Zic: until now I had honestly put little thought into it but it might very well be a good idea as the old sounds might not be perfect with the new colors
[18:02] <kwwii> ok, thanks for coming everyone - discussion to the mailing list
[18:02] <andreasn> new sounds sounds cool
[18:02] <andreasn> thank you kwwii
[18:02] <Misosaki> Thanks kwwii
[18:07] <Zic> where is the mailing list of the artworkteam ?
[18:11] <soren> Zic: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-art
[18:11] <soren> Zic: https://lists.ubuntu.com/ is your friend.
[18:14] <Zic> soren: I know lists.ubuntu.com, but I do not find this ml, thanks
[18:30] <thorwil> kwwii, will do (was away)
[22:50] <quidpro> was there an artwork team meeting earlier today?
[23:01] <somerville32> quidpro, I think so yes