[00:01] <dasKreech> imbrandon: Where is the part about windows having free licenes in Nigeria ?
[00:02] <imbrandon> dasKreech, you'll have to search a bit, i dont have the link handy but the OS's were given free
[00:03] <nixternal> didn't Microsoft create an XP that was stripped of things so they could sell it cheaper or give it away?
[00:03] <imbrandon> yes
[00:03] <nixternal> I wonder if that is what it is, if it is, then it makes the whole thing sting that much more
[00:03] <nixternal> because not only did they get windows, but they got a rather stripped down version
[00:04] <nixternal> that UbuDSL looks sharp
[00:04] <imbrandon> XP for the Classmate and OLPC is $3
[00:05] <nixternal> holy smokes
[00:05] <imbrandon> http://www.engadget.com/2007/04/20/microsoft-will-sell-3-software-to-developing-countries/
[00:05] <nixternal> 4/20 :p
[00:05] <imbrandon> XP Starter Edition
[00:06] <imbrandon> http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/newsroom/winxp/WinXPStarter-material.mspx
[00:18] <dasKreech> imbrandon: starter editon is terrible
[00:37] <dasKreech> imbrandon: how do you know the build of the Debian KDE4 cd ?
[00:37] <imbrandon> http://pkg-kde.alioth.debian.org/kde4livecd.html
[00:41] <dasKreech> Right
[00:41] <dasKreech> is it a daily?
[00:42] <dasKreech> Oh never mind it says Beta4
[00:42] <dasKreech> sorry
[00:42] <nosrednaekim> its out? beta4?
[00:44] <Riddell> ssh
[00:45] <jjesse> ssh what?
[00:50] <imbrandon> ssh about beta4 i assume
[00:50] <seele> ssh as in secret
[00:51] <Jucato> hi imbrandon! hi seele!
[00:52] <seele> hallo
[00:53] <imbrandon> heya
[00:55] <Jucato> seele: what do you use for wireframing? visio? dia? kivio? :D
[00:56] <seele> Jucato: visio
[00:56] <Jucato> ah ok. thanks :)
[00:56] <Jucato> (they look purty...)
[00:57] <seele> ah, thanks :)
[01:02] <dasKreech> hi Jucato
[01:02] <Jucato> hi dasKreech
[01:03]  * Jucato wonders if either dia or kivio have stencil sets for GUI widgets...
[01:04] <seele> even if they did, theyre uh.. "difficult" to use
[01:04] <Jucato> heheh :)
[01:05]  * Jucato doesn't have visio to know how easy it is to use... :(
[01:07] <Jucato> seele: have you heard of this software? http://www.axure.com/home.aspx
[01:07] <seele> Jucato: yeah, i have it
[01:07] <Jucato> wow :)
[01:07] <seele> although i dont like it for wireframing or IA work
[01:07] <seele> visio is still much better
[01:07] <seele> but for interface prototyping it is very nice
[01:09] <Jucato> I've been looking for a comparable FOSS or even freeware alternative. the UI prototyping feature seems to be very nice
[01:09] <seele> yeah, but its .NET3 so i cant run it in wine
[01:10] <dasKreech> Yet
[01:10] <Jucato> aw... silly .NET :(
[01:10] <dasKreech> What about Mono?
[01:10] <imbrandon> mono only supports .net 2 thus far
[01:10] <seele> yeah
[01:11] <imbrandon> shouldnt be long though, the mono team is pretty speedy
[01:11] <dasKreech> I know are they moving towards 3 yet?
[01:11] <imbrandon> 6 months or a year i would bet
[01:11] <Jucato> at adapting MS technology? :)
[01:11] <Jucato> oh well... an interactive slideshow would probably work as well :)
[01:12] <imbrandon> Jucato, yea mono is fairly open
[01:12] <imbrandon> err .net
[01:12]  * Jucato read somewhere that MS will "open" .NET source, with NDA's of course...
[01:13] <imbrandon> Jucato, the specs are already open, no real need for source
[01:13] <imbrandon> its an ecma standard
[01:14] <Jucato> ah
[01:14] <Jucato> ecma.... isn't ooxml an ecma standard too?
[01:14] <imbrandon> no
[01:14] <imbrandon> not iirc
[01:14] <imbrandon> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm is c# there are others that pertain to it too
[01:15] <Jucato> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-376.htm OOXML is :/
[01:16] <imbrandon> but its incomplete
[01:16] <imbrandon> you cant implment all things
[01:43] <Ahmuck> make your own stencil set?
[01:43] <Jucato> prolly... if I get enough motivation to do it :D
[01:53] <dasKreech> Emotioanl motivation?
[01:54] <Jucato> *motivation
[01:58] <dasKreech> I
[01:58] <dasKreech> 'll buy you a pizza :)
[02:01] <jjesse> hello Jucato
[02:01] <Jucato> evening jjesse!
[02:01] <jjesse> can you buy me a pizzza?
[02:01] <Jucato> dasKreech: had that the other day. we're going out to buy chinese probably :)
[02:01] <Jucato> mom's bday :)
[02:01] <dasKreech> you want a pizza with sleeping powder? Sure :)
[02:02] <Jucato> gun powder on mine
[02:06] <nixternal> Jucato: Ken said real soon!
[02:06] <nixternal> think green
[02:06]  * nosrednaekim is a greenie
[02:06] <nixternal> no environmental friendly green :)
[02:09] <imbrandon> gPC green? /me hides from nixternal
[02:10] <nixternal> E is pretty cool
[02:10] <nixternal> but gOS keeps crashing on my desktop
[02:10] <dasKreech> What's the next macOS?
[02:10] <nixternal> I haven't messed with E in a long time
[02:10] <jjesse> that's because you didn't buy it at walmart
[02:10] <imbrandon> dasKreech, 10.5.1 ?
[02:10] <nixternal> I don't shop at Wal-Mart!
[02:10] <dasKreech> Ha ha :)
[02:10] <dasKreech> What's the cycle they are on now? 18 months?
[02:11] <imbrandon> osx? they dont have a predetremind cycle
[02:11] <imbrandon> "when its ready"
[02:11] <nosrednaekim> nixternal: you got  gOS?
[02:11] <dasKreech> KDE 4.2 might go up against it
[02:11] <nixternal> ya
[02:12] <nixternal> it took forever and a day to download
[02:12] <dasKreech> Would be nice to have a Kubuntu vs commerical OS showdown :)
[02:12] <imbrandon> why on earth?
[02:13] <nixternal> no doubt
[02:13] <nosrednaekim> nixternal: its just E17 right?
[02:13] <imbrandon> sides Kubuntu falls under a "Commercial OS" too, canonical provides support :P
[02:13] <nixternal> that is like comparing plastic surgeons
[02:13] <nixternal> nosrednaekim: ya
[02:13] <nixternal> last time I messed with E was many years ago
[02:14] <nosrednaekim> I tried it on fiesty... I didn't really like it.. but its FAST!
[02:14] <nixternal> ya, our packages for E sucks...there is some dude with an E repo that has good stuff
[02:14] <jjesse> what is E ?
[02:14] <nixternal> Enlightenment
[02:14] <imbrandon> Enlightenment DE
[02:14] <nixternal> actually, the guy who has them used to hang out here
[02:14] <nosrednaekim> nixternal: I got it from somewhere else, forget where
[02:15] <nixternal> he has the Mandriva repos too
[02:15] <nixternal> Hawkwind?
[02:15] <nixternal> something like that
[02:15] <imbrandon> yea
[02:15] <nixternal> ya, his packages are good, they don't crash out all of the time
[02:16] <nosrednaekim> yeah... hawkwind... they were good packages
[02:17] <dasKreech> nixternal: hawkwind?
[02:17] <nixternal> ya
[02:17] <nixternal> he was here last year hanging out
[02:18] <dasKreech> nixternal: you have any idea how many times a month I have to answer the query. Do i have to remember commands when I install Linux?
[02:18] <dasKreech> I know I miss him :(
[02:18] <dasKreech> he logged in not too long ago too
[02:18] <dasKreech> hung out for 15 then gone again
[02:19] <nixternal> heh
[02:20] <dasKreech> nixternal: the rhetorical question was in your response to Why would I want a showdown
[02:20] <nixternal> find someone to do an unbiased showdown, then you are good
[02:20] <nixternal> otherwise, it will be worthless
[02:20] <nixternal> and honestly, I don't know of a single media outlet that could do an unbiased report
[02:21] <dasKreech> nixternal: how about the suckers who got 17,000 Windows starter editions?
[02:21] <nixternal> I will leave that one alone
[02:23] <nixternal> I would love to know more about that entire story though
[02:24] <dasKreech> Yeah but I'll let the chairheaver and the frenchie battle it out
[02:25] <nixternal> oh wow
[02:25] <dasKreech> So all three OSes are roughly reaching the point where they are starting to mature
[02:26] <dasKreech> v
[02:26] <dasKreech> http://media.arstechnica.com/video/leopard-intro.mov
[02:26] <dasKreech> Sweet
[02:27] <dasKreech> We don't have intro stuff at all why?
[02:28] <jjesse> did hobbssee sign on tonight or did we scare her away last night?
[02:28] <nixternal> I doubt anyone scared hobbsee away
[02:29] <nosrednaekim> E|:-}>
[02:30] <dasKreech> Whoops
[02:57] <jjesse> is it bad that i'm triaging bugs from one user
[03:01] <Riddell> no, we love you for it
[03:22] <jjesse> there's like 40 bugs  from the same user that are in ALL CAPS IN THE TITLE WHICH MAKE THEM MORE IMPORTANT TO TRIAGE
[03:29] <ScottK> jjesse: bug --> Invalid due to excessive rudeness.
[03:30] <jjesse> the guy creates a new bug about the same subject like every month cause no one has helped him out
[03:30]  * jjesse grumbles and reaches for the Point Stick of Death
[03:49] <ScottK> jjesse: Just tell him all the smart people are on the forums.  He should ask there.
[03:49] <jjesse> lol
[03:49] <jjesse> seriously this is the 3rd set of bugs i've cleaned upd duplicates on
[03:50] <ScottK> jjesse: Hang in there.  It's important work you are doing.
[03:50] <jjesse> can we ban people from reporting bugs :)
[03:51] <jjesse> i love this bug: bug # 147833
[03:52] <jjesse> bug 147833
[03:52] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 147833 in kdebase "konqueror crash when closed it" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/147833
[03:52] <ScottK> jjesse: Crash on close is a legit, but low priority issue.
[03:53] <jjesse> ScottK: it just strikes me as funny
[03:53] <jjesse> or something crashed for no apparent reason
[03:54] <uga> it possibly means resources are being doubly cleaned or so
[03:54] <dasKreech> I have a pretty large number of apps that crash on close
[04:01] <dasKreech> anyone have a clue how they would preserver your /home dir on a format?
[04:02] <jjesse> setup /home in a different parition and don't format that drive
[04:04] <dasKreech> Yeah there is a sepc for hardy that seems to do away with that
[04:04] <dasKreech> Let me read it some more :)
[05:01] <Jucato> nixternal: what's real soon?
[05:01] <nixternal> this week
[05:01] <nixternal> the build is done
[05:02] <Jucato> kde4?
[05:02]  * Jucato is confused. just got back :)
[05:02] <dasKreech> If I want a calendaring/contact sharing server
[05:02] <dasKreech>  Hula?
[05:20]  * Jucato misses Hawkwind...
[05:21] <Jucato> if E only had even 3/4 of KDE's awesome features, I probably wouldn't even be here :)
[05:21] <Jucato> (reacting to gOS, dasKreech-style)
[05:22] <dasKreech> oh reading huge backlogs and making comments?
[05:23] <Jucato> yeah... but I kinda missed the part about replying 6+ hours after the factg
[05:23] <Jucato> fact*
[05:36] <nixternal> OK, bed time
[05:36] <nixternal> k'nite :)
[05:36] <Jucato> knight nixternal!
[08:31] <amachu> Riddell: hi
[08:32] <mhb> amachu: he's at the UDS, so he's unlikely to respond (according to the web it's 4:30 there)
[08:32] <mhb> I mean respond at this time, of course.
[08:32] <amachu> Riddell: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/kid3/+bug/159441
[08:32] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 159441 in kid3 "Merge kid3 0.9-4 from debian unstable " [Undecided,Confirmed]
[08:33] <amachu> mhb: ok
[09:52] <mhb> hi folks
[09:53] <mhb> umm, we just have 2 kubuntu-* tasks to do for Hardy? Catchup and KDE4?
[09:53] <mhb> I know it may be all we can manage at this point, but I'd expect more stuff to be discussed :o)
[09:55] <Hobbsee> well, they're kinda big :)
[09:55] <Hobbsee> i suspect the rest is encompassed in kde4, actually
[10:49] <jpatrick> hello Sereg
[10:49] <Sereg> Hi, guys
[10:50] <jpatrick> Sereg: what would you like to help out with?
[10:50] <Sereg> I'm experienced C++ developer and love Qt/KDE
[10:50] <Sereg> Also I have some basic skills in Python
[10:50] <jpatrick> see: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu
[10:51] <Sereg> yes, I'we already joined the mailing list
[10:51] <Sereg> but cannot pick any task myself
[10:51] <Sereg> I heard something about needed software for flash drive formatting...
[10:52] <mhb> Sereg: what we're aiming at this cycle -> porting our apps for KDE4 and catching up with Ubuntu
[10:52] <mhb> those are our tasks, of course, you're free to choose what you like yourself
[10:52] <Sereg> mmm... is there some tracking system of needed/done issues?
[10:54] <Sereg> It is my first time in community development, so please describe me how do you do that (if you have some time to spare :) )
[10:55] <jpatrick> Sereg: well, the catchup plans are at: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyCatchup
[10:57] <jpatrick> Sereg: prehaps you could look into the Codec install thing? (looking around at how Amarok does it might help)
[10:57] <Sereg> It would be great for me!
[10:57] <Sereg> how to assign myself to this task?
[10:58] <jpatrick> Sereg: just work away at it :)
[10:58] <Sereg> mm... there is no sync between developers? what if someone already does it?
[10:58] <Hobbsee> Sereg: saying that you're doing it, on our mailing list, would be a good idea
[10:59] <Hobbsee> people tend to know what each other are doing, as there are so few people
[10:59] <Sereg> oh, right :)
[10:59] <Sereg> thanks
[10:59] <mhb> Sereg: of course, you can always help out with KDE4 (at www.kde.org) if you prefer application devel
[10:59] <Sereg> so I need to install kdelibs-dev and go on
[11:00]  * Hobbsee tries to remember what dh_icons actually does.
[11:00] <jpatrick> kdelibs4-dev
[11:00] <Sereg> mhb: I have not so many experience in KDE development for this yet
[11:00] <jpatrick> Sereg: neither do I, but I'm doing my best :)
[11:00] <Sereg> jpatrick: and where can I get sources of kaffeine for KDE4?
[11:01] <Sereg> =)
[11:01] <mhb> Sereg: I ask that myself a lot of times
[11:01] <jpatrick> Sereg: it'd be better if you patched the KDE3 Kaffeine, cos that's the one going into the final release
[11:01] <mhb> Sereg: they aren't really available yet, we need to fix KDE3 Kaffeine
[11:01] <Sereg> aha...
[11:02] <mhb> Sereg: the KDE4 patch will be very similar
[11:02] <Sereg> that's cool
[11:02] <jpatrick> Sereg: KDE4 will be too unstable for long term support
[11:02] <jpatrick> Sereg: so, 'apt-get source kaffeine' is your friend
[11:03] <Sereg> and how abount distro alpha's and beta's? should I preserve some disk space to install them in future?
[11:03] <Sereg> is it required?
[11:04] <mhb> Sereg: not really, because kaffeine won't change
[11:04] <jpatrick> err, I think that's the guinea pigs job
[11:04] <Sereg> :)
[11:04] <jpatrick> Sereg: how amarok does it: http://websvn.kde.org/?view=rev&revision=545638
[11:06] <Sereg> quite cute solution
[11:06] <jpatrick> mhb: do you know how I can edit the layout of compiz-kde-guidance so the buttons don't shrink? ( http://img260.imageshack.us/my.php?image=we4ym6.png )
[11:07] <Sereg> thank you, guys, for such warm meeting! I hope to be useful
[11:08] <mhb> jpatrick: change the height of them to be Maximum or Fixed, I guess
[11:08] <jpatrick> mhb: it didn't like that
[11:09] <mhb> no?
[11:09] <jpatrick> I'll poke around with it for a while
[11:10] <jpatrick> Sereg: most people here are busy / sleep / something, so things take some time
[11:11] <Sereg> there was no any sarcasm, no
[11:12] <Sereg> maybe it's my mistake, in my country "warm meeting" is synonimous to "very nice, friendly mmeting"
[11:12] <Hobbsee> Sereg: basically, there are different things to work on.  coding an app / fixing bugs is different to doing distro testing, for eg
[11:12] <Hobbsee> so youc an do one and not the other
[11:14] <Sereg> I like the idea to add codec autoinstallation to kaffeine
[11:15] <mhb> jpatrick: I can try it, just commit your changes so you don't have to merge
[11:16] <jpatrick> mhb: I'm pkg something right now, I'll work on desktop-kde a few moments later
[11:19] <mhb> okay, I'll try to do that by myslef
[11:19] <mhb> Sereg: are you familiar with Qt/KDE?
[11:19] <mhb> Sereg: development, that is
[11:20] <jpatrick> he said he loved it :)
[11:21] <mhb> oh did he?
[11:21]  * mhb must have misheard, sorry
[11:22] <jpatrick> in #kubuntu that is
[11:24] <Sereg> jpatrick: yes, I'm familiar with Qt (especially with Qt4) and have little experience of KDE3 application development
[11:25] <Sereg> yes, I love Qt =)
[11:26] <Sereg> I wonder why GNOME based distro is a mainstream of Ubuntu. I think that KDE applications are much more usable that GNOME analogs
[11:26] <sebas> Mark says: "Because KDE does not have a fixed release cycle, and KDE's UIs were too messy in the past"
[11:26] <sebas> Recent interview on lxer.com :)
[11:27] <Sereg> :(
[11:27] <Jucato> there doesn't seem to be a KDE4 port of Kaffeine yet
[11:27] <Jucato> sebas: how recent? as in days recent?
[11:27] <sebas> http://www.abclinuxu.cz/clanky/rozhovory/mark-shuttleworth?page=1
[11:27] <Jucato> oh, and hi sebas, Hobbsee, mhb, jpatrick
[11:27] <Sereg> I think I'll be able to port Kafefine to KDE4 after my current task.
[11:27] <Hobbsee> hiya Jucato
[11:28] <jpatrick> hi Jucato
[11:28] <sebas> Sereg: Rather do codeine, it's got a much cooler UI :-)
[11:28] <Sereg> or something else is planned to default video player in kubuntu Hardy?
[11:28] <Jucato> s/cooler/simpler/ but I agree :)
[11:28] <jpatrick> kaffeine's the one (I think)
[11:28] <Jucato> Sereg: still kaffeine....
[11:28] <Jucato> but Hardy will not have KDE 4.0 by default
[11:28] <Sereg> :-Â
[11:29] <Sereg> :-D
[11:29] <Sereg> wow...
[11:29] <Jucato> we can't
[11:29] <Sereg> This makes sense
[11:29] <Jucato> longish interview... thanks sebas
[11:29] <jpatrick> we'll freakout porting everything to kde4 hardy+1 cycle
[11:29] <Jucato> Sereg: by virtue of Hardy being an LTS release, we can't have KDE 4.0 yet
[11:30] <Sereg> KDE4 will be released only in December, and I don't believe in full stability
[11:30] <Jucato> but there will be Gutsy-based KDE 4 Live CD's
[11:30] <Jucato> but as early as now, we do need to plan already :)
[11:31] <jpatrick> Jucato: let's have a meeting :)
[11:31] <Sereg> Jucato: so I can also make some pretty fixes of d3lphin?!
[11:31]  * Jucato points to the one with the long pointy stick
[11:31]  * Jucato would rather that the fix be rm -rf d3lphin... but that's personal
[11:32] <Jucato> Sereg: I'm afraid that we would have to take the burden of actually fixing d3lphin. I've e-mailed the upstream maintainer almost 2 months ago, regarding the patch that I made. no reply
[11:32] <Sereg> Jucato: +1, korqueror rulezz
[11:33] <Sereg> :(
[11:33] <Sereg> bad
[11:33] <Jucato> dunno. maybe real life took over... it always does...
[11:33] <Sereg> d3lphin has ugly flickering on moving cursor over several long-named files
[11:33] <Jucato> although I'd have to say, d3lphin's huring dolphin's image a lot.. :(
[11:35] <Jucato> we really only have 2 approved specs for Hardy? :/
[11:35] <Jucato> any other unapproved specs?
[11:36] <mhb> how come you people dislike Dolphin(3) too much?
[11:36] <mhb> I find it perfectly usable personally
[11:37] <Jucato> :)
[11:37] <mhb> and I use Dolphin4, too - they are comparable when it comes to features I use
[11:37] <Sereg> mhb: IMHO, It is too raw for default kubuntu's file manager
[11:37] <Jucato> d3lphin? comparable to dolphin? :/
[11:37] <Jucato> oh well... dinner
[11:38] <mhb> Sereg: really? The only complaint I have is that nobody really imported the translations
[11:38] <mhb> otherwise it seems quite usable
[11:39] <Serega> mhb: maybe, it speaks my habit to konqueror's behahior :)
[11:40] <mhb> Serega: well enjoy konqueror while it lasts
[11:40] <Serega> anyway, I like the idea about two side panels
[11:41] <Serega> the main issue I disliked is filckering :-\
[11:41] <mhb> because the time will come when a new, faster KDE Web Browser arrives, and people will love it, and since they're happy with Dolphin, many distros will dump Konqueror to oblivion
[11:43] <mhb> although all top kde devs claim that Konqueror will still be a filemanager it used to be, it will progressively be "the same" like Keramika or some other theme nobody really uses anymore
[11:43] <Serega> I thought that konqueror web browser is nothing but KHTML engine wrapped into the complete application
[11:44] <sebas> No, it's much more.
[11:44] <sebas> bookmarks, kwallet, KJS, KIO, KSSL to only name a few things that it needs integration with.
[11:45] <Serega>  yes, I missed
[11:46] <mhb> my opinion - if we have Dolphin - The usable (and pretty fast) filemanager for KDE, how long does it take before somebody comes with an idea of KFoo - The Usable (and pretty fast - faster than Konq) Web Browser?
[11:47] <jpatrick> oh, what a dull name
[11:47] <mhb> jpatrick: hehe, just the classic name substitute (foo-bar)
[11:47] <Serega> konq has one big flaw for me - it doesn't show the page until all the pictures are loaded :(
[11:48] <jpatrick> mhb: and a classic quote from the HHGttG :)
[11:50] <mhb> jpatrick: it's older than that
[11:50] <mhb> Serega: yeah, I somehow find Konq slower than Firefox subjectively
[11:53] <Serega> does anybody know smth about gutsy and laptop keys? Guys from launchpad have figured out that it's 2.6.22 kernel problem :(
[11:54] <jpatrick> bless them
[11:55] <mhb> what laptop keys?
[11:55] <mhb> volume down/up?
[11:55] <Serega> aha...
[11:55] <Serega> and brightness, etc...
[11:56] <Serega> that was bad surprise after feisty->gutsy upgrade
[12:17] <Jucato> mhb: you should spend time in #kubuntu or kubuntuforums.net... get to hear user comments
[12:19]  * jpatrick hasn't been to the forums in a while
[12:20] <Jucato> :)
[12:20] <mhb> Jucato: those channel are designed for complaining :o)
[12:20] <mhb> channels
[12:20] <jpatrick> Jucato: anything new over there?
[12:20] <Jucato> perfect excuse :)
[12:21] <mhb> if they want to comment so loud it reaches me, make sure they file bugs
[12:22] <Jucato> great idea. We'd rather flood ourselves with duplicate bugs filled with complaints, rather than limiting them to a place where it's more conducive for them, and less hassle for us to filter :)
[12:22] <mhb> Jucato: no, let them complain in the places they should, like the channels
[12:22] <Jucato> jpatrick: nothing much. although I've noticed we have much more traffic now than when I started there :)
[12:22] <Jucato> it's not too overloaded, but not dead either
[12:23] <mhb> but if they want to change anything, they better show their arguments, not complains
[12:24] <Jucato> we're going in circles.
[12:24] <Jucato> nvm
[12:24] <mhb> if they prefer Konqueror, then they should be lucky, because their app is on the CD by default
[12:24] <jpatrick> mhb: put koffice on the cd and I'll be happy :)
[12:25] <mhb> jpatrick: yeah, or perhaps putting KDE3libs and KDE4libs side to side, so that the transition can be smooth
[12:25] <jpatrick> mhb: I thought kdelib3 was long gone
[12:26] <jpatrick> but I know what you mean?
[12:26] <Jucato> kde3libs = KDE 3 libs :)
[12:26] <Jucato> :P
[12:26] <jpatrick> mean.*
[12:26] <Jucato> we will have to anyway. transition or not. there will be some apps that haven't been ported yet to KDE 4 by that time anyway
[12:26] <mhb> kdelibs3 is some KDE2 libs according to that weird Debian naming, right?
[12:26] <Jucato> yes
[12:26] <mhb> that's why I said KDE3libs, like KDE3 libraries
 I found my new favourite English word! It's the kibibit!</offtopic>
[12:31] <mhb> Jucato: I'm afraid we would need some serious compression in order to achieve that
[12:31] <Jucato> mhb: unfortunately... unless of course we just not ship any KDE 3 app... like Konversation... in case it hasn't been ported yet
[12:31] <mhb> and even a simple KDE4 CD would take more space than the KDE3, at least I think so
[12:33] <mhb> kdelibs/kdebase seem to be a lot bigger now with KDE4
[12:33] <Jucato> it is?
[12:33] <mhb> I haven't done any precise measurements, though
[12:33] <seele> mhb: i thought it got significantly smaller
[12:34] <seele> and they added stuff?
[12:34] <Jucato> don't base it from our kde4 packages though. those have been built with fulldebug afaik
[12:34] <Jucato> don't base the size I mean
[12:35] <mhb> seele: really? I made estimates by the kubuntu kde4 packages, perhaps the nodebug versions of them will be smaller
[12:35] <mhb> Jucato: ^^
[12:35] <mhb> it was just an estimate ... I really hope I'm wrong here :o)
[12:35] <mhb> of course, my experience with software development is that expecting that the next version will be faster or smaller is really absurd :o)
[12:36] <Jucato> but not impossible or improbable
[12:36] <Serega> +1
[12:36] <Jucato> for one, afaik, some classes have been dropped because they have been implemented in Qt 4 already
[12:36] <Jucato> can't say w/c though
[12:36] <mhb> Jucato: okay, name one piece of often-used software that actually gets faster with each release
[12:37] <Jucato> KDE?
[12:37] <Serega> kernel?
[12:37] <Serega> :)
[12:37] <Jucato> kubuntu?
[12:37] <Jucato> upstart?
[12:37] <mhb> Jucato: Kubuntu is slower
[12:37] <Jucato> gutsy maybe.. but Dapper -> Edgy -> Feisty definitely had speed increases imho
[12:37] <Serega> I found much more responsiveness from gutsy
[12:37] <mhb> Jucato: I published some measurements some time back
[12:38] <Jucato> then I have no defense against that :)
[12:38] <Jucato> some people don't have the benefit of technical know-how in proper benchmarking to really see the difference. we can only measure with our senses
[12:39] <mhb> Jucato: hmm, perhaps I didn't
[12:39] <Serega> ...as an generic user
[12:39] <Serega> *a
[12:39] <mhb> I know Edgy was really faster than Dapper, then it declined, I had some numbers, but it seems I published other
[12:39] <seele> mhb: i remember the devs making a big deal about it after kde4 because most of the week was spent rennovating the core libs
[12:40] <seele> but there is a lot of new stuff, it maybe the end result really is larger
[12:40] <Serega> trolltech also promised a speed increase in Qt4
[12:40] <Serega> as I remember
[12:40] <mhb> Serega: everyone promises that, don't they?
[12:41] <Serega> :-D
[12:41] <Jucato> seele: probably more stuff has been added to kdebase than kdelibs...
[12:41] <mhb> Microsoft promised that Vista will be faster than XP, and it may be so on machines with 2GB of RAM and 64bit CPUs :o)
[12:42] <mhb> seele: hmm, well I hope I'm wrong.
[12:43] <Jucato> but that's MS... doesn't KDE deserve a bit more trust than that? even just a teeny weeny bit?
[12:43] <mhb> Jucato: that is software development in general.
[12:44] <Serega> Vista has a lots of DRM/UAC/etc related shit
[12:44] <mhb> Jucato: there were word processing tools before Microsoft arrived, yet still, word processing never got faster
[12:44] <Jucato> I'm not yet a software developer, so I won't argue
[12:45] <mhb> Jucato: besides, we would need to have a bunch of testers dedicated to speed testing in order to change anything
[12:45] <Serega> oohh... we've ported our app to vista... I had to break our architecture to accomodate vista changes :(((
[12:45] <mhb> and I doubt we have people like that, stopwatch in one hand, mouse in the other
[12:46]  * mhb wonders if Jucato could convince the #komplainers to do that
[12:46] <jpatrick> mhb: #kubuntu-testers ? ;)
[12:47] <Jucato> I doubt they'd be interested if they knew their feedback fell on deaf ears
[12:47] <jpatrick> lunch ->
[12:47] <Serega> mhb: I believe, that speed itself does matter very rarely (e.g. when user encodes video). User feel how the system responds to his actions, how quickly a menu drops down, etc
[12:48] <mhb> Jucato: Look, we provide Konqueror on the default CD. That is more than we do for many other apps users crave for. What more can we do?
[12:48] <mhb> Is it really that hard for users to change their filemanager?
[12:48] <mhb> Serega: when I usually say "speed" I mean bootup time, that is really important IMHO.
[12:49] <mhb> Serega: whether Amarok will load 1 or 1,5 seconds not that much.
[12:49] <dasKreech> mhb: It's not hard just non obvious
[12:51] <Serega> mhb: agree
[12:51] <mhb> hmm, I remember ryanakca or someone wanted to have a "filemanager" option in the systemsettings "Default applications"
[12:51] <Serega> nice idea
[12:51] <mhb> Jucato: ^^ you can look into that, you know :o) practice is the best way of learning
[12:53] <jjesse> evening Jucato
[12:55] <Jucato> good morning jjesse
[12:56] <Jucato> mhb: sorry. lost interest
[12:56] <mhb> Jucato: what?
[12:56] <Jucato>  <mhb> Jucato: ^^ you can look into that, you know :o) practice is the best way of learning
[12:57] <mhb> hmm
[12:57] <mhb> okay.
[12:58] <mhb> I'll ask that question every time you say something negative about Dolphin :o)
[12:58] <Serega> mhb: do you make CD/DVD images?
[12:59] <Serega> mhb: and what relation do you have to dolphin?) just interesting
[12:59] <mhb> Serega: we as in Kubuntu? The Kubuntu CDs are created by the Launchpad build system, we currently don't do any custom CDs - but we want to create a KDE4 CD in this cycle.
[13:00] <Serega> I'm a newbie here, and dunno roles in team
[13:00] <Jucato> mhb: 1. I didn't complain about the dolphin vs. konqueror thing. I specifically singled out d3lphin. 2. I was just expressing my very personal opinion and 3. that wasn't my point later on anymore
[13:00] <Serega> ooh...
[13:00] <Serega> wow)
[13:00] <Jucato> and 4, I already have this
[13:00] <Jucato> !d3lphin
[13:00] <ubotu> Dolphin, or more properly D3lphin, is the new default file manager for Kubuntu 7.10 Gutsy Gibbon. If you would like to make Konqueror your default file manager again, go to Konqueror - Settings menu - Configure Konqueror - File Associations and change the association for inode/directory and inode/system_directory to Konqueror at the top rather than Dolphin.
[13:01]  * Riddell high fives Serega 
[13:02] <mhb> Serega: and on roles - we're a community, so in theory, everyone is equal :o) except our dearest Jonathan Riddell, who's a paid developer by Canonical, but I'm sure you've heard that
[13:03] <Serega> mmm... what is this mean? :) ([15:01] Riddell high fives Serega )
[13:03] <mhb> a greeting
[13:03] <Serega> Thanks!
[13:03] <mhb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Five
[13:03]  * Serega bows
[13:03] <dasKreech> mhb: Wow that's sick
[13:04] <mhb> dasKreech: err?
[13:04] <mhb> dasKreech: I beg your pardon?
[13:04] <dasKreech> They have a encyclopedia definition of high Five
[13:04]  * Jucato is not really a coder.... more like a contributor who just likes to poke people, bring up certain issues from users, and (try to) annoy real developers like mhb... so take me with a pinch of salt
[13:05] <mhb> Jucato: I hope I haven't annoyed you much or that i don't sound very annoyed :o)
[13:05] <Serega> have you all registered here, guys? I worry, that I can casually occupy someone's nickname :-S
[13:06] <Jucato> better register your nick asap :)
[13:06] <Jucato> !register | Serega
[13:06] <ubotu> Serega: Information about registering your Freenode nick is at http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#contents-userregistration
[13:07] <Jucato> the nicks are per server anyway.. not per channel/project
[13:07] <Serega> !register | Serega
[13:08] <Jucato> er... no. ! is how you trigger the bot
[13:08] <Jucato> you can pipe or redirect the bot's factoid to a nick :)
[13:09] <dasKreech> !hello
[13:09] <ubotu> Hi! Welcome to #kubuntu-devel!
[13:10] <Serega> !help
[13:10] <ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
[13:10] <Serega> :-D all-knowing
[13:10] <Serega> "browse my brain"
[13:10] <Serega> awesome :)
[13:10] <dasKreech> !windows
[13:11] <ubotu> For help with Microsoft Windows, please visit ##windows or your nearest mental health institute. See http://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+bug/1 http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm and !equivalents
[13:11] <Serega> (ROFL)
[13:11] <Serega> ugh... please stop, I can't laugh anymore)))
[13:12] <Jucato> !botsnack
[13:12] <ubotu> Yum! Err, I mean, APT!
[13:12] <Serega> btw, I'm translating LNW to Russian
[13:12] <Serega> nice doc
[13:12] <Serega> !ubotu
[13:12] <ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
[13:13] <Jucato> !botabuse | Serega, there's also this thoug:
[13:13] <ubotu> Serega, there's also this thoug:: Please investigate with me only in /msg or in #ubuntu-bots (type also /msg ubotu Bot). Also avoid adding joke/useless factoids. Abusing the channel bots will only result in angry ops...
[13:13] <Jucato> :D
[13:13] <mhb> Riddell: good luck at the KDE4 session!
[13:14] <Serega> ok, sorry :)
[13:14] <dasKreech> !nixternal
[13:14] <ubotu> Oh no!  The pointy-clicky Vista lover has arrived!  He's rumoured to be giving out free money, too!
[13:14]  * dasKreech whistles
[13:14] <dasKreech> hi nixternal  :-)
[13:17]  * dasKreech loves MSN
[13:17] <dasKreech> It's generous when being used by spambots
[13:19] <uga> dasKreech: MS stuff... generous? really?
[13:20] <dasKreech> With spam
[13:20] <dasKreech>  yeah!
[13:20] <dasKreech> Hobbsee: !!
[13:21] <Jucato> wb Hobbsee
[13:27] <mhb> see you later, and to the UDSers out ther - enjoy the KDE4 session!
[13:39] <dasKreech> Ok work time
[13:40] <jpatrick> ya, me too
[13:41]  * dasKreech nominates Pingus as one of the face games for Linux
[13:41] <Hobbsee> yay, pingus :)
[13:41] <Hobbsee> kibi's working on it
[13:41] <dasKreech> New one came out yesterday
[13:41] <dasKreech> Looks really good
[13:42] <Serega> pretty nice
[13:42]  * Serega is launching supertux
[13:43] <dasKreech> also really good
[13:43] <dasKreech> Till I beat the last level
[13:43] <dasKreech> very very frustrating
[13:43] <Serega> where to get a bunch of designers to upgrade the artowork of all linux games...
[13:43]  * tobias_ wants the new freeciv:-)
[13:44] <Serega> *artwork
[13:44] <dasKreech> New freeciv just came out too
[13:44] <dasKreech> I miss the old freeciv :-(
[13:44] <dasKreech> Serega: all?
[13:44] <Serega> I miss civilization 1 gui
[13:44] <Serega> dasKreech: best
[13:44] <dasKreech> Serega: grab Freeciv :)
[13:45] <dasKreech> Serega: the gametome has a GOTM project that does just that
[13:45] <jpatrick> mhb: it's funny, all I do is break layout, add an apply button, and redo, and all icons and button are shrunk
[13:45] <dasKreech> jump in and help
[13:45] <Serega> such as supertux, stratagus...
[13:45] <dasKreech> Serega: Supertux already ahd the graphics upgraded
[13:45] <Serega> let's leave the games, I think it is a wrong place to talk about them
[13:46] <dasKreech> !games
[13:46] <ubotu> Information about games on Ubuntu can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Games and http://www.icculus.org/lgfaq/gamelist.php
[13:50]  * dasKreech goes *poof*
[14:37] <nixternal> mornin'
[14:46] <Jucato> hi nixternal
[14:46] <Jucato> (sorry late)
[14:51] <jjesse> morning nixternal
[14:51] <Riddell> jjesse: hmm, I notice we have kubuntu-​gutsy-​plus-​one-​adept scheduled now
[14:51] <Riddell> I'm not sure there's much to discuss
[14:52] <Riddell> or indeed anything
[14:53] <jjesse> Riddell: ok
[14:53] <jjesse> so that is any easy converstation
[14:54] <jjesse> especailly since no one subscribed to the spec
[14:54]  * Jucato waves to jjesse and Riddell
[14:55] <Riddell> hola jjesse
[14:55] <Riddell> tsk
[14:55] <Riddell> hola Jucato
[14:55] <Riddell> now if Serega is looking for fun c++ bits to do, he may well find them in kubuntu-gutsy-plus-one-adept
[14:56] <Jucato> I saw an Add/Remove Improvement blueprint earlier, but no wiki for it. is that going to push through? if it is, does that mean we'll have to update Adept Installer as well?
[14:56] <Riddell> Jucato: I'm not sure if anything came out of that
[14:57] <Jucato> hehe I thought so... non-existing wiki page is not a good sign of spec health :)
[15:02] <Lure> mhb: ping
[15:17] <Serega> I'm here
[15:17] <Serega> Riddell: what kind of changes do we need in  kubuntu-gutsy-plus-one-adept?
[15:18] <yuriy> really nothing to discuss for hardy adept?
[15:18] <Jucato> probably it will all depend again on whether Ubuntu will switch to PackageKit...
[15:18] <yuriy> but, for starters, a few details to consider: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/adept/+bug/82428
[15:18] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 82428 in adept "adept details view usability" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
[15:19] <yuriy> also, DL speed/ETA would be nice
[15:20] <Serega> I'm disagree with some issues
[15:20] <Serega> "Installed files" is useful, when I want to look what files WILL BE installed
[15:20] <Jucato> Serega: unfortunately, APT doesn't provide that info
[15:21] <Serega> oops
[15:21] <Jucato> at least not directly (I think apt-file does)
[15:21] <Serega> I'm not so familiar with APT :(
[15:21] <Jucato> :)
[15:21] <Jucato> although removing the tab when the package is installed and adding it when it's installed.. might not be good usability either. I think disabling the tab is better
[15:22] <Jucato> (+graying out)
[15:22] <Serega> maybe there is no way to know file list util .deb is downloaded
[15:22] <Jucato> unless it's actually installed. afaik
[15:23] <Serega> downloaded as minimum, or we cannot look inside .deb?
[15:23] <yuriy> anyways, point being, there are certainly things that be reasonably improved in adept if someone is willing to hack on it
[15:23] <yuriy> a spec could be something along the lines of fix these bugs: ...
[15:23] <Serega> I willing to do anything useful :)
[15:23] <Jucato> I'm planning to triage all open adept bugs (next week)... let's see what I can come up with
[15:24] <Jucato> in terms of making a summary that is... :P
[15:24] <Serega> *I am
[15:24] <yuriy> Jucato: adept was just the only thing we got through last march, but I'm sure there's plenty of new stuff since then
[15:25] <yuriy> s/last/back in
[15:25]  * Jucato was planning Adept + System Settings...
[15:25] <Jucato> but I'm just going to triage and forward notes and suggestions to manchicken... not sure if I can fix some
[15:26]  * Jucato thinks the bug reporter has even worse usability recommendations... :P
[15:26] <yuriy> Jucato: i'm talking about triaging, as in the bugs that were left open at that point were all actual bugs
[15:26] <yuriy> :P
[15:26]  * Jucato looks at the bug reporters name and says oop!
[15:26] <Jucato> s
[15:27]  * yuriy is no expert to make suggestions, but can see problems
[15:28] <Serega> how about to show changes (changelog from last version) before package update?
[15:28] <Jucato> yuriy: btw... there are reinstall and purge in the actions
[15:28] <Jucato> Changelog tab?
[15:28] <Jucato> it fetches the changelog from the server
[15:28] <Jucato> er wait. actions menu or context menu?
[15:29] <Serega> at least for community-supported packages
[15:29] <yuriy> Jucato: on the details page, under the package description
[15:29] <Jucato> Serega: all official packages (main to multiverse)
[15:29] <Jucato> aaah
[15:29] <Riddell> we have changelog support
[15:30] <Jucato> hm... jjesse or Riddell, there was also mention of apturl in that (non-existing) spec for add/remove.. does that affect kio_apt?
[15:30] <yuriy> the changelog is not working, btw
[15:30] <Serega> and adept shows changes only from previous version? I missed this...
[15:32] <Riddell> erk, changelog shows "Index of /changelogs/pool/main"
[15:32] <yuriy> doesn't show anything for me
[15:33] <Riddell> so task for Serega, fix changelog showing :)
[15:33] <Jucato> :)
[15:33] <Serega> :)
[15:33] <Riddell> but talk to manchicken about that, he did the current code
[15:34] <manchicken> You can't pin that on me.
[15:34] <manchicken> Oh, maybe you can.
[15:34] <Serega> is "manchinken" a nickname?)
[15:34] <Serega> oh...
[15:34] <Serega> hi
[15:35]  * Jucato teaches Serega about tab autocompletion in IRC
[15:35] <Jucato> !tab | Serega
[15:35] <ubotu> Serega: You can use <tab> for autocompletion of nicknames in IRC, as well as for completion of filenames and programs on the command line.
[15:35] <yuriy> ooh another minor thing: in adept installer, the button on the bottom says "next" when disabled and "apply changes" when enabled
[15:35]  * Serega applauses!
[15:42] <Serega> Where Adept should get changelog info?
[15:43] <Jucato> changelogs.ubuntu.com I think
[15:44] <Riddell> Serega: the feature is already there, it just needs debugging to work out why it doesn't always work
[15:44] <Riddell> "just"
[15:44] <Serega> Riddell: I understand
[15:45] <Hobbsee> Riddell: but we know why it doesnt always work.
[15:45] <Riddell> Hobbsee: why's that?
[15:45] <Hobbsee> Riddell: it breaks when the source adn binary package is in a different component.
[15:45]  * Hobbsee filed a bug abotu this a while ago.
[15:45] <Serega> wow...
[15:45] <Riddell> looking at an update of adept and it's broken, adept is all in main
[15:46] <Serega> things tend to change quickly :)
[15:46] <Hobbsee> ah, so this is a differnet lot of changleogs breakaging?
[15:47] <Riddell> openoffice seems to work
[15:47]  * Hobbsee doesnt know which lot of breakage you're talking about.
[15:47] <Riddell> and now I look at ttf-opensymbol and it shows me the openoffice changelog
[15:48] <Serega> aahhh... I'm at job and cannot test it all right now :(
[15:48] <bddebian> Heya
[15:48] <Riddell> Hobbsee: all of it!
[15:48] <Hobbsee> Riddell: well, duh ;)
[16:03] <yuriy> Jucato: tell me when you're looking through adept+system settings stuff.  if i'm free... err procrastinating at the time, i'll help out
[16:04] <Jucato> yuriy: sure. but feel free to start w/o me.. I'm also.. um... procrastinating :)
[16:20] <Riddell> mhb: I think KDE starts up fine without a splash screen
[16:20] <Riddell> on a live CD of course is a different atter
[16:20] <Riddell> matter
[16:23] <Serega> Riddell: I think we should keep in mind users with weak computers
[16:26] <Riddell> Serega: for what?
[16:26] <Riddell> oh, the splash
[16:26] <Riddell> Serega: the trouble with the splash is that to start just the splash it needs to load all of kdelibs itself
[16:26] <Riddell> so you're half way to KDE before the splash shows
[16:27] <Riddell> getting rid of the splash makes slower machines faster, but the perception may be that it's slower
[16:29] <Serega> :)
[16:30] <Serega> Riddell: maybe we should consider to make some "light" splash writetn on Xlib only?
[16:30] <Serega> *written
[16:30] <Riddell> there is one
[16:30] <Riddell> but it's ugly
[16:31] <Serega> Riddell: I'm completely agree with you about start time of KDE splash itself
[16:31] <Riddell> ksplashsimple
[16:31] <Riddell> suse has a more advanced one
[16:31] <Serega> ugly? bad code?
[16:31] <Riddell> looks ugly to user
[16:32] <Serega> is it a problem to make nice looking splash without KDE or even without Qt?
[16:33] <Serega> we can focus on existing implementation
[16:33] <Serega> and make it even better than in SuSE
[16:35] <Serega> btw, I would like to implement kaffeine codec autoinstallation as I have already announced it in mainling list
[16:35] <Serega> before I start Adept fixing, or something else
[16:38] <Riddell> nixternal: dot story there for you to edit
[16:38] <Riddell> Serega: ah hah, good idea
[16:38] <Riddell> Serega: and probably more satifying that hacking adept :)
[16:39] <Serega> Riddell: of course, taking a look at my experience in kubuntu development $)
[16:39] <Serega> ;)
[16:39] <Riddell> Serega: kaffeine mostly just needs to run /usr/lib/amarok/install-mp3 when it can't play something
[16:39] <Riddell> oh and kplayer too preferably
[16:40] <Serega> ya, jpatrick advised me to look at amarok's source
[16:40] <Riddell> if you slip in ability to download and install w32codecs and libdvdcss that would be interesting too (it may well not survive though)
[16:41] <Serega> what do you mean?
[16:44] <Riddell> well currently amarok installs libxine1-ffmpeg which helps play some files
[16:44] <Serega> aha
[16:44] <Riddell> but not encrypted dvds or various more proprietry codecs
[16:44] <Serega> true
[16:44] <Riddell> we can't include w32codecs and libdvdcss in the archives
[16:44] <Riddell> but it's an open question if we can point to URLs where they happen to be
[16:45] <Riddell> restricted manager does this for broadcom firmware
[16:46] <Serega> I've understood that part, " (it may well not survive though)" was confused me
[16:46] <Jucato> questionable legality probably?
[16:46] <Riddell> someone might decide we can't point to URLs where they are (since it would make us look like we're supporting copyright enfingement for w32codecs)
[16:47] <Riddell> but as I say we already do with restricted-manager
[16:47] <Riddell> Serega: ksplashx is inside http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/SL-OSS-factory/inst-source/suse/src/kdebase3-SuSE-11.0-8.src.rpm
[16:47] <Riddell> you can use alien to extract it
[16:48] <Serega> Riddell: thnx
[16:48] <jpatrick> Riddell: where can I get the lastest adept code?
[16:48] <Riddell> jpatrick: apt-get source adept
[16:49] <Riddell> also launchpad.net/adept with bzr
[16:49] <Serega> Riddell: but isn't it the same to automatically install MP3 support?
[16:49] <Riddell> but I think bzr is out of date
[16:49] <jpatrick> Riddell: ok
[16:49] <Riddell> Serega: MP3 isn't a breach of copyright, it's a breach of a very dubious patent
[16:49] <Riddell> libdvdcss is a breach of stupid DMCA type laws
[16:49] <Serega> Riddell: oh.. I'm weak in laws)
[16:50] <Riddell> w32codecs and broacom firmware seeems to be a blatant copyright breach
[16:50] <Serega> Riddell: now I'm undertand
[16:50] <Serega> s/I'm/I
[16:50] <jpatrick> hmm, funny, my developer changelog thing works..
[16:51] <sebas> nixternal: Do you have a minute for me?
[16:51] <Serega> Riddell: so what packages can I install anyway? libxine-ffmpeg?
[16:52] <Serega> s/I/kaffeine
[16:52] <Riddell> yes
[16:52] <Riddell> that one is certain
[16:53] <Serega> Interesting, does Canonical have a department of lawyers to find potentially dangerous solutions?
[16:55] <Riddell> we'd just point to a URL where they exist for w32codecs or libdvdcss so it's not illegal on our side, it's just a potentially bad image if we are supporting copyright infringement
[16:56] <Serega> btw, I never used w32codec and can play everything fine with kaffeine
[16:56] <Serega> *w32codecs
[16:56] <Serega> So I think we have no need to point to it
[16:57] <Serega> and this is most ugliest thing, because of "w32"
[16:58] <Serega> that looks like unability of open software to play videos itself for windows enthusiasts :(
[17:00] <Serega> libdvdcss is something different, It just can help me to play my honestly bought DVD's on PC
[17:00] <Serega> many people want to do that
[17:01] <Serega> Riddell: my working day at job is over and I have to go home. I hope we will continue this discussion later
[17:06] <Riddell> Serega: see you soon then
[17:06] <Serega> nice to meet you
[17:06] <Serega> bye!
[17:15] <mhb> good to see you jpatrick
[17:15] <mhb> jpatrick: I've just pushed some changes into the branch
[17:15] <mhb> I did them while I was on bus
[17:16] <mhb> Riddell: nice, can we get rid of the bouncy logo that overwrites itself and is generally not visually pretty, too?
[17:17] <mhb> I mean at least on KDE startup, pretty please
[17:17] <jpatrick> mhb: I've been playing compiz - doesn't work here at all
[17:18] <mhb> jpatrick: too bad, but I hope they can improve things during the cycle
[17:18] <mhb> jpatrick: please update your branch
[17:19] <jpatrick> they better if this module is to do something ;)
[17:19] <jpatrick> mhb: I am right now
[17:19] <jpatrick> ah, done already
[17:21] <mhb> jpatrick: I may have done something you were working on, I hope you're not mad :o)
[17:21] <jpatrick> mhb: not at all, I need all the pointers I can get
[17:22] <mhb> I've also started working on a Qt4 version so we're not behind KDE4 porting
[17:22] <mhb> it's just the UI yet
[17:23] <DaSkreech> mhb: on D bus?
[17:26] <mhb> DaSkreech: what's on D bus?
[17:26] <mhb> ah, yes :o)
[17:26] <mhb> DaSkreech: a good one
[17:26] <DaSkreech> mhb:  :)
[17:39] <mhb> jpatrick: elif is the way to go in Python?
[17:39] <mhb> jpatrick: I must have had too much C in the last few days :o)
[17:40] <mhb> Riddell: I think we could (discuss about) take a bold step forward and point to libdvdcss and codecs
[17:40] <jpatrick> mhb: hmm, http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/43029/ :)
[17:41] <jpatrick> mhb: be thankful you get C class /has to suffer VB
[17:41] <mhb> jpatrick: be thankful you've got VB, I've got Pascal and C# classes
[17:41] <mhb> :o)
[17:42] <mhb> jpatrick: our teacher is enlightened enough to allow C for assignments
[17:42] <jpatrick> ok, you win
[17:42] <mhb> :o)
[17:43] <jpatrick> mhb: what config file should we be read from?
[17:43] <mhb> Riddell: a) we would keep up with distros like PCLinuxOS who are gaining support because they don't really care much about it and simply ship it on a CD b) we won't get sued because of point a) -- they'll get sued first
[17:44] <mhb> and pointing to files isn't actually illegal AFAIK, the user is the one who acknowledges the download... IANAL though... and I have never heard of anyone being sued or even criticized for playing legal DVDs on Linux
[17:45] <mhb> jpatrick: the same one Ubuntu does? I don't know which one is it, though.
[17:45] <mhb> jpatrick: we should investigate
[17:45] <Jucato> afaik the latter one is how Gentoo gets around the whole legality question. it doesn't really distribute the codecs, but merely automate the download
[17:47] <mhb> and I think we should do the same - ask the user whether he wants them/knows that it is legal in his country then automate it
[17:48] <mhb> because stuff like this really makes us a bit worse in Windows users' eyes
[17:48] <Riddell> mhb: w32codecs isn't legal anywhere
[17:48] <Riddell> and we'll get sued before PCLinuxOS do, we have a company with money
[17:49] <mhb> when I hear mark I am not that sure about it :o)
[17:49] <mhb> do you know of any company that got sued? or any user?
[17:50]  * DaSkreech steps out of #kubuntu
[17:50] <mhb> I am using libdvdcss, and I am proud of it - I like to play the movies I bought.
[17:50] <DaSkreech> WE need more people to help out there. Thankless job :-(
 Daskreech thanks
[17:50] <DaSkreech> Jucato: I meant rounding up more people to help out in #kubuntu
[17:51] <Jucato> sure. where will we get those people? :)
[17:51] <DaSkreech> once people start helping it's generally satidfying until release time when the You guys suck cult turns out in droes
[17:51] <DaSkreech> droves
[17:51] <mhb> I ask that question a lot
[17:52] <nosrednaekim> eh.. what are we talking about?
[17:53] <mhb> nosrednaekim: several topic, among them: whether we should boldly go where noone has gone before and offer more so-called "illegal" codecs like libdvdcss, and where to find more people (for devel, #kubuntu help etc.)
[17:53] <mhb> topics
[17:53] <nosrednaekim> ah... ok
[17:53] <jpatrick> mhb: I can't find anything useful in gnome-compiz-manager
[17:54] <nosrednaekim> AFAIK. libDVDcss is illegal only in the US, right?
[17:54] <nosrednaekim> jpatrick: hey... are you still looking for hings to package?
[17:54] <jpatrick> nosrednaekim: yep
[17:54] <jpatrick> nosrednaekim: still kde-biased tho
[17:54] <nosrednaekim> jpatrick: two requests then, kicker-compiz and compiz-taskbar
[17:55] <mhb> wiki says:
[17:55] <mhb> Many Linux distributions do not contain libdvdcss (for example Debian, SUSE Linux, and Ubuntu) due to fears of running afoul of DMCA-style laws.
[17:55] <nosrednaekim> jpatrick: they are
[17:55] <nosrednaekim> mhb: don't we have to stick with Ubuntu's policy?
[17:55] <mhb> hmm
[17:56] <mhb> Mark says by having less financial support we gain more independence, so I'd say no, but Riddell knows best
[17:56] <DaSkreech> So can we havea welcome screen on first install?
[17:56] <mhb> hehe :o)
[17:56] <Riddell> DaSkreech: write a plasmoid! (seriously)
[17:57] <nosrednaekim> mhb: Mark really said that?
[17:57] <DaSkreech> Riddell: too late!
[17:57] <manchicken> Man, #ubuntu-devel has some hostile-type folks there...
[17:58] <jpatrick> nosrednaekim: does kicker-compiz overwrite kicker?
[17:58] <mhb> manchicken: who?
[17:58] <DaSkreech> manchicken: Sup?
[17:58] <jpatrick> wait, looks like it don't..
[17:58] <mhb> manchicken: don't worry, you're safe with us
[17:58] <nosrednaekim> jpatrick: no... its basically just the desktop pager.
[17:58] <manchicken> deadwill
[17:58] <manchicken> heh
[17:59] <manchicken> mhb: Well, what's scary is that I'm on GNOME now, and probably will be for a while.
[17:59] <DaSkreech> Is gnome going GPL3?
[17:59] <mhb> manchicken: get out you cheap little...!
[17:59] <manchicken> That I don't know.
[17:59] <mhb> manchicken: :o)
[17:59] <manchicken> mhb: heh
[18:00] <manchicken> mhb: I'm just having trouble with everything being on hold, you know?
[18:00] <manchicken> mhb: Kubuntu is the only group really doing any active work on KDE3.
[18:00] <mhb> manchicken: I don't know, what do you mean?
[18:00] <mhb> manchicken: oh, KDE4 block
[18:00] <Riddell> DaSkreech: why is it too late?
[18:00] <manchicken> mhb: Not just KDE4 block, it's leading to code rot.
[18:00] <DaSkreech> Riddell: They wrote one already
[18:00] <mhb> nosrednaekim: yes, mark said a similar thing
[18:00] <Riddell> DaSkreech: who did?
[18:01] <DaSkreech> Suse isn't doing KDE3?
[18:01] <manchicken> mhb: And what's more, if I'm under KDE, System76 keeps blaming KDE for problems.
[18:01] <mhb> Riddell: I think libdvdcss (copyrighted DVD playback) would be okay to point to
[18:01] <DaSkreech> Riddell: Don't recall aseigo was talking about it
[18:01] <manchicken> And for some of them, they're right... but for most they're wrong.
[18:01] <DaSkreech> I'll check
[18:01] <mhb> Riddell: it's not illegal everywhere, and it only allows nice people who buy legal DVDs to enjoy them in Kubuntu
[18:01] <mhb> that is sort of noble IMHO
[18:02] <manchicken> mhb: And just because it's illegal, doesn't mean that folks give two squats about those stupid laws anyway.
[18:02] <Riddell> mhb: yes, I agree we should
[18:03] <manchicken> mhb: It shouldn't be illegal for me to use what I paid for :)
[18:03] <manchicken> mhb for president
[18:03] <nosrednaekim> ok... now what about Fluendo and amarok...?
[18:03] <Riddell> nosrednaekim: what about them?
[18:04] <mhb> nosrednaekim: I think we cannot use Fluendo because we're using the xine backend, aren't we?
[18:04] <nosrednaekim> is it possible to get a gstreamer engine for amarok?
[18:04] <nosrednaekim> AFAIK, Fluendo only makes a gstreamer plugin
[18:04] <Riddell> only for amarok 2
[18:04] <nosrednaekim> mhb: yeah, thats what I meant
[18:04] <mhb> xine is quite a stable and functional engine in KDE3, I wouldn't change that
[18:04] <manchicken> We should start seeing if we could load-balance support a little.
[18:05] <manchicken> There are more than 1K users in #ubuntu for crying out loud... no wonder people repeat and go into -devel channels.
[18:07] <DaSkreech> Riddell: My apologies. Aseigo just asked me to work on it :)
[18:08] <DaSkreech> there is one but it shows up and moves. That's about it
[18:08] <nosrednaekim> http://en.opensuse.org/Playing_mp3s_with_Amarok_and_the_Fluendo_Gstreamer_Plugin
[18:12] <nosrednaekim> manchicken: they are considering pointing users to their local Loco leam channel.
[18:12] <manchicken> nosrednaekim: That's not a bad idea, except for areas that have small Locos.
[18:12] <Nightrose> nosrednaekim: the thing is yauap doesn't work - we had a lot of pople in our channel complaining about it
[18:12] <Nightrose> +e
[18:12] <nosrednaekim> Nightrose: suse?
[18:12] <Nightrose> jep
[18:12] <nosrednaekim> Nightrose: ah... ok.
[18:13]  * nosrednaekim will keep looking
[18:13] <Nightrose> don't know what the actual problem is but it causes problems for a lot of our users
[18:13] <Nightrose> and we have to tell them to switch back to xine
[18:16] <Riddell> Nightrose: what's yauap?
[18:17]  * mhb agrees that xine is a better bet than gstreamer atm
[18:17] <Nightrose> Riddell: the engine suse uses in amarok since their last release
[18:17] <Nightrose> it allows them to distribute a mp3 codec
[18:17] <Nightrose> don't know the exact details though
[18:18] <nosrednaekim> Riddell: seems to be a gstreamer plugin for amarok.
[18:18] <Nightrose> mhb: jep and amarok no longer supports gstreamer - this is a hack by suse
[18:19] <Nightrose> and as I said it is not a very good one...
[18:19]  * nosrednaekim hides from his dumb explanation
[18:19] <Nightrose> ;-)
[18:19] <Nightrose> no need for that
[18:19] <Nightrose> it is quite complocated for someone who doesn't use it every day
[18:20] <nosrednaekim> (and have to support it as well)
[18:20] <Nightrose> jep
[18:22] <nosrednaekim> ok, so what about this.... we install the fluendo plugins but don't use them.
[18:23] <nosrednaekim> why should they care which ones we are using as long as we have some legal ones installed?
[18:23] <nosrednaekim> maybe thats too logical for the patent system tho..
[18:24] <mhb> nosrednaekim: better not :o)
[18:25] <Nightrose> btw Riddell: http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/amarok-devel/2007-October/thread.html and http://mail.kde.org/pipermail/amarok-devel/2007-November/thread.html for latest replies to the ~/Music discussion
[18:27] <Riddell> thanks
[18:27] <Nightrose> yw
[18:27] <jpatrick> nosrednaekim: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/43032/
[18:35] <jpatrick> nosrednaekim: ahhh, I see sorry
[18:35] <nosrednaekim> jpatrick: eh?
[18:36] <jpatrick> nosrednaekim: I missed the -ltaskmanager (in kdebase-dev)
[18:36] <nosrednaekim> and I'm supposed to understand that ;0
[18:36] <jpatrick> in a way
[18:37]  * nosrednaekim doesn't understand packaging very well
[18:58] <Riddell> mhb: the new compiz-kde from hardy doesn't seem to crash when I'm using KDE's normal window decoration
[18:58] <Riddell> but still crashes when using crytal win deco
[19:01] <Riddell> which ought to be fixable I guess
[19:01] <Riddell> crystal even has an active upstream, maybe I should just ask him
[19:02] <nosrednaekim> Riddell: when does it crash?
[19:02] <Riddell> on startup and on changing any kwin settings
[19:03] <Riddell> on startup when run through compiz
[19:03] <Riddell> running through kde-window-decorator after that works ok
[19:03] <nosrednaekim> lemme test that..
[19:03] <nosrednaekim> oh... ok... thats how I was doing it.
[19:12] <Riddell> nosrednaekim: try changing Navigation in Window Behaviour in System Settings
[19:12] <nosrednaekim> while running the kde-window-decorator?
[19:12] <Riddell> yes
[19:13] <nosrednaekim> looks good
[19:13] <nosrednaekim> any setting in that set, right?
[19:13] <Riddell> nosrednaekim: do you use kconfig in ~/.config/compiz/compizconfig/config
[19:15] <nosrednaekim> hummm not sure, how do I check?
[19:18] <Riddell> cat ~/.config/compiz/compizconfig/config :)
[19:18] <nosrednaekim> oh...duh :)
[19:19] <nosrednaekim> backend is ini
[19:19] <Riddell> change it to kconfig and restart
[19:19] <Riddell> restart compiz
[19:19] <Riddell> I'm curious to know how it decides to use ini or whatever
[19:21] <nosrednaekim> lost all my effects BTW
[19:22] <nosrednaekim> ummm nothing still, but I started KWD manually, as I have emerald set (i'm not sure how) to default
[19:25] <Riddell> nosrednaekim: system settings -> window behaviour -> navigation -> tick something
[19:25] <Riddell> or untick
[19:25] <nosrednaekim> did that...everything is ok
[19:25] <Riddell> hmm, fooey
[19:26] <Riddell> and you set backend = kconfig ?
[19:26] <fdoving> there is some option in the ccsm about default decoration-thing.
[19:26] <nosrednaekim> I'm using AIGLX with the new ATi 8.42 drivers if that makes any difference
[19:28] <gnomefreak> 8.42 i thought was the last that needed xgl i thought next version was gonna change that. although they have been trying for a long time now
[19:28] <nosrednaekim> 8.42 has AIGLX
[19:29] <gnomefreak> hmmmmmmmm i think i have ati card laying around here i might try in another system
[19:36] <nosrednaekim> this kconfig isn't working too well, settings aren't saved...
[19:40] <jpatrick> nosrednaekim: kicker-compiz done
[19:41] <nosrednaekim> muchas gracias!
[19:41] <nosrednaekim> jpatrick: but i'm going to have to wait till hardy to get it ;)
[19:41] <jpatrick> well you could ask to have it backported
[19:42] <nosrednaekim> thats ok...I already have it compiled
[19:43] <jpatrick> nosrednaekim: if you want anything more, file a bug with [needs-packaging] and assign it to me
[19:43] <nosrednaekim> ok... thanks!
[19:54]  * jpatrick rips up Apress' Qt dev book
[20:00] <Riddell> jpatrick: something wrong with it?
[20:01] <jpatrick> Riddell: no, I was just getting it.. :)
[20:01] <yuriy> hmm strange, basket doesn't support exporting to network locations for some reason
[20:01] <jpatrick> since the Trolltech one was the same as last time
[20:02] <serega> Please help: how to build debug version quickly?
[20:03] <serega> maybe some standard configure flags?
[20:04] <nosrednaekim> serega: version of what?
[20:05] <serega> of executable (automake project)
[20:05] <serega> it is kaffeine
[20:06] <nosrednaekim> serega: kaffeine --version?
[20:06] <serega> is there a standard way to remove -O2 and to add -g3?
[20:06] <nosrednaekim> oh... its not compiled yet?
[20:06] <serega> yes, I'll make changes to kaffeine
[20:07] <serega> I'm just not so experienced with automake
[20:07] <serega> an I do not know  how to make debug build :)
[20:07] <jpatrick> serega: --enable-debug=full
[20:08] <serega> jpatrick: great thanks! :)
[20:13] <nixternal> Riddell: I will take a look at the Dot story
[20:13] <nixternal> sebas: what's up?
[20:13] <Riddell> nixternal: thanks
[20:13] <Riddell> sebas will want you to publish the dot story
[20:13] <nixternal> I finally watched Happy Feet :)
[20:14] <nixternal> ahh, OK
[20:14] <Riddell> I'd remove the excessive use of italics
[20:14] <jpatrick> nixternal: is that the dot story?
[20:14] <Riddell> and change "people" to something more descriptive
[20:14] <nixternal> roger dodger
[20:15] <yuriy> hmm also shortcuts don't seem to work in basket
[20:16] <serega> I ran into strange trouble: I've recently been removed libxine1-ffmpeg package and expect errors on opening encoded avi's, but kaffeine opens them without errors, but display blank screen about 10 seconds (progress slider is active) Any glue? :-\
[20:17] <jpatrick> serega: glue won't help
[20:17] <serega> :)
[20:17] <serega> I should dig
[20:18] <DaSkreech> Riddell: http://bddf.ca/~aseigo/welcometokde4.png
[20:18] <serega> cute, I remember there kaffeine HAD shown errors before libxine1-ffmpeg was installed :)
[20:19] <ryanakca> yuriy: about not saving to network locations, it's not the only kde app that does that.... *tries to think of the other culprit*
[20:19] <yuriy> yeah i think there was another one... either digikam or krita
[20:19] <Riddell> DaSkreech: looking interesting
[20:19] <Riddell> what's the openID bit for?
[20:19] <DaSkreech> Yeah
[20:20] <DaSkreech> Aaron wants to have OpenID right up front
[20:20] <DaSkreech>  so if you have a an OPenID it can be added instantly
[20:20] <DaSkreech> #plasma
[20:20] <Riddell> DaSkreech: it should be made so it's easy for distros to customise, so we can add an "install" link on the live cd etc
[20:20] <DaSkreech> they are discussing it now
[20:20] <yuriy> shortcuts in basket for the various icons on the notes Ctrl+[0-9] don't seem to work at all, and in some cases clash with other shortcuts. Anyone confirm?
[20:20] <DaSkreech> Riddell: eh?
[20:20] <DaSkreech> Oh
[20:20] <DaSkreech> Startup on the Live CD
[20:20] <ryanakca> DaSkreech: sorry for my ignorance.... but, what is that screenshot for? Install KDE4?
[20:21] <DaSkreech> ryanakca: firstboot plasmoid on KDE4
[20:21] <nosrednaekim> like kpersonalizer?
[20:21]  * nosrednaekim likes kpersonlizer
[20:21] <ryanakca> DaSkreech: hmm... and the openID thing would be for?
[20:21] <yuriy> neat plasmoid
[20:22] <ryanakca> yuriy: looks sharp :)
[20:22] <DaSkreech> ryanakca: an easy way for peopel with OpenID to drop it in the system
[20:22] <DaSkreech>  KDE4 looks to be very OpenID friendly
[20:22]  * yuriy wonders if the "get new stuff" button should launch the package manager
[20:22]  * nosrednaekim googles OpenID
[20:23] <yuriy> i've been meaning to get one, especially after troy grilled me on my ignorance
[20:23]  * ryanakca knows of it's uses as a central login system, or something similar, but, what use would it have in KDE4 as a desktop? Something similar to kwallet?
[20:23] <ryanakca> oops... uncentral
[20:24] <yuriy> i think it would be useful if you could use it to log into sites such as flickr for integration with digikam.  especially more useful once akonadi rolls around.
[20:25]  * ryanakca nods
[20:27] <mhb> good evening to all europeans
[20:27] <Riddell> good afternoon
[20:27] <mhb> and each other time of day to the non-europeans :o)
[20:27] <nosrednaekim> you're getting smart mhb
[20:27] <ryanakca> hey mhb :)
[20:27] <mhb> nosrednaekim: no I'm not, me bad english strikes again
[20:27] <mhb> s/each/every
[20:28] <mhb> Riddell: hi, how did the KDE4 session go?
[20:28] <mhb> hi ryanakca
[20:28] <nosrednaekim> mhb: pfft...don't worry about that... we all know it was a simple typo ;)
[20:28] <Riddell> mhb: no big surprises
[20:28] <Riddell> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyKde4
[20:29] <yuriy> lol "kde 4 rocks, we should support it"
[20:29] <yuriy> Riddell: is that kde 3 edu or kde4edu?
[20:30] <Riddell> yuriy: I hope to have kde4edu as default
[20:30] <mhb> aww, packagekit :o(
[20:31] <Riddell> mhb: why aww?
[20:31] <mhb> I don't really like the concept, remember?
[20:31] <Riddell> I do remember, although I don't remember why just now
[20:32] <mhb> I like things simple (and fast), and the design (use a daemon at all times, communicate using D-Bus) sound too complex (and error-prone) to me
[20:33] <mhb> this way, the apps will eat resources quite fast, IMHO ... and I wouldn't like another Yast Package Manager.
[20:33] <yuriy> but we already run adept_notifier at all times
[20:34] <mhb> true (and I don't like that app either, for other reasons like hacked-in apport), but we never send the whole contents of our package list via D-Bus
[20:36] <Riddell> new k3b out!
[20:36] <mhb> app wants package list -> app needs to ask for package list via D-Bus - app needs to wait while deamon crunches - daemon sends *all* the package names thru D-Bus - app is happy, but we need to catch all the errors in communication, what happens when the daemon sends malformed data etc. etc. etc.
[20:36] <Serega> jpatrick: may I ask you another question about tools?
[20:37] <jpatrick> Serega: sure, any time
[20:37] <mhb> but it seems I am the only one who is afraid of a slow app
[20:37] <mhb> and after all, we're software developers, we cannot make apps faster with new releases! So that kind of resolves it.
[20:37] <Serega> jpatrick: thanks. I got this: "not in executable format: File format not recognized" from GDB
[20:38] <Serega> jpatrick: where I missed?
[20:38] <jpatrick> Riddell: according to the site it was released 38 years ago
[20:38] <mhb> too bad nobody proved me wrong yet, I would so like to join the cheering packagekit masses
[20:39] <Serega> I suspect this "This GDB was configured as "i486-linux-gnu"..."
[20:40] <jpatrick> Serega: are you sure you're running the exe?
[20:40] <Serega> jpatrick: can it be a machine type mismatch
[20:40] <nixternal> Riddell: take a look at the post now? If I make edits and click change, does it change the main one, or do I have to press "repost" in order for it to save the changes so you can look at them?
[20:40] <Serega> jpatrick: yes, sure
[20:41] <jpatrick> Riddell: should I try and package it
[20:41] <jpatrick> ?
[20:41] <Serega> jpatrick: I can run it without any trouble
[20:41] <Serega> jpatrick: I've configured it with --enable-debug=full
[20:41] <jpatrick> hmm, no idea then
[20:42] <Serega> ok, thanks
[20:43] <nosrednaekim> ooohhh we;re doing KDE4 liveCd's now?
[20:43] <Riddell> nixternal: it chages it
[20:44] <Riddell> jpatrick: you'd need to merge with debian at the same time
[20:45] <Riddell> nixternal: & needs to be &amp; in URLs
[20:45] <Riddell> (and elsewhere)
[20:46] <fdoving> mhb: what kind of packagelist is it you're talking about? available?
[20:46] <Riddell> nixternal: no <br /> at start, but use paragraphs instead (also on 3rd block)
[20:46] <Riddell> nixternal: I'd get rid of the <hr />
[20:46] <Riddell> nixternal: and People -> Developers
[20:47] <mhb> fdoving: for example, yes.
[20:47] <mhb> fdoving: any larger chunks of data will create slowdowns because they have to be transported thru D-Bus.
[20:47] <fdoving> mhb: in that case it's not that huge, the daemon doesn't need to be anything but a app that registers to dbus and reads /var/lib/dpkg/available
[20:48] <Serega> jpatrick: OMG, I figured out! :) That was really not a binary 'kaffeine', but a script in build directory. Thanks another time and sorry for disturb :)
[20:48] <mhb> fdoving: consider this:
[20:48] <jpatrick> Serega: we're all here to help each other out :)
[20:48] <fdoving> mhb: doesn't need to be faster than aptitude i presume?
[20:48] <mhb> fdoving: for item in packagelist:
[20:49] <mhb> well, let's rather describe it
[20:49] <fdoving> please do.
[20:50] <Serega> jpatrick: it's amazing, I keep being amazed with the work of the Community. It's great!
[20:51] <mhb> won't the daemon run through each of the files first, add it to some array, then send the whole array over D-Bus, then the frontend has to read through each of the items in the list, and load it into the GUI. Or would it provide one package at a time asynchronously? Then we would do N D-Bus calls, and that might be kind of expensive for N >= 10000 and N is usually even bigger.
[20:52] <mhb> in Adept, the manager can do just one loop, and store the info directly into the GUI.
[20:54] <Riddell> I'd think storing it in the GUI in adept will use more memory than in packagekitd
[20:54] <mhb> Riddell: we have to store it in the GUI in the end
[20:54] <fdoving> mhb: if the client can be smart and add calls to a list, and use some kind of magic EOR (end of request), then the daemon reads that info from the files and replies. or something like that.
[20:54] <Riddell> ah but in qt 4 it uses model view :)
[20:56] <mhb> fdoving: I'm not sure I understand how we send the N package names in your scenario and load them up in the GUI (which we have to do anyway)
[20:56] <DaSkreech> nosrednaekim: What you think of OpenID ?
[20:56] <fdoving> mhb: reading the packagelist at startup can't be that slow. it's 1.4MB here. that is /var/lib/dpkg/available if you add status it's 3MB total.
[20:57] <fdoving> storing it in memory while the app is running can't be a problem.
[20:57] <DaSkreech> yuriy: http://www.nuno-icons.com/images/estilo/welcome.png
[20:57] <mhb> fdoving: storing at the daemon or at the client?
[20:57] <mhb> fdoving: or at both?
[20:57] <buz> jpatrick: i just tested the kde-luks package on gutsy (had to do force-all to get it installed though)
[20:57] <buz> works like a charm
[20:57] <fdoving> mhb: or drop the daemon and load it directly into the client.
[20:58] <jpatrick> Riddell: ^^ upload kdebase patch and I'll get kryptomedia into universe
[20:58] <fdoving> mhb: would probably add ~2 sec to startup time.
[20:58] <fdoving> on slow systems.
[20:58] <buz> jpatrick: there's actually a bug report against kde itself
[20:58] <buz> which has had some activity in the past few days
[20:58] <jpatrick> buz: yes, that was me
[20:58] <buz> oh cool ;)
[20:58] <mhb> fdoving: drop the daemon? You *have* to have a daemon, otherwise it's no packagekit anymore :o)
[20:59] <nosrednaekim> DaSkreech: sounds like a good Idea, rather like Firfox's passowrd manager, except cross system,
[20:59] <mhb> fdoving: loading the packagelist up may be a good idea, but loading it at the daemon, then sending it, then parsing it is not one
[20:59] <nosrednaekim> what is luks?
[21:00] <buz> jpatrick: there's one issue i'll have to look into: how does kryptomedia ensure the password doesnt get swapped out?
[21:00] <jpatrick> nosrednaekim: encrypted hard disk thingy
[21:00] <jpatrick> buz: I have no idea...
[21:00] <buz> is there some flag for "dont swap this page?"
[21:01] <buz> (i know the kernel itself takes measures against swapping out passwords, but as long as they reside in userspace?)
[21:01] <nosrednaekim> ah.. ok
[21:01] <DaSkreech> nosrednaekim: Yeah looks to be amazing. really have to thank LJ for that
[21:01] <buz> in any case, thanks a lot, jpatrick
[21:02] <DaSkreech> nosrednaekim: luks is encrypted hard drive I think. Still headwrapping it
[21:02] <nixternal> Riddell and sebas: posted the KOffice interview/article
[21:02] <fdoving> mhb: loading it on request then, at client startup? - keeping it loaded 24/7 can't be needed, can it?
[21:03] <buz> jpatrick: wait a second, i get asked for password, but mountpoint doesnt seem to be setup properly
[21:03] <mhb> fdoving: yes, loading on client startup, also at client's request, which may be several times while it is loaded
[21:03] <nosrednaekim> ahh.... you learn stuff when you hang out here :D
[21:03] <nosrednaekim> nixternal: where is it?
[21:03] <fdoving> mhb: yeah, on refreshes etc.
[21:04] <DaSkreech> You know what would be interesting in Adept?
[21:04] <DaSkreech>  a way to get a list of all manually installed packages
[21:04] <buz> looks like kryptomedia decrypts the device and creates an appropriate node in /dev/mapper but doesnt actually mount it
[21:04] <mhb> fdoving: still, you have to either send a lot of small data thru D-Bus (and I can bet that'll be slow-er) or go through each package once, then send the whole list, then go through the package list again
[21:05] <DaSkreech> buz: So if the hard drive is swapped out to a new machine it's unreadable ?
[21:05] <buz> no
[21:05] <buz> you can move drives between machines
[21:05] <buz> the key to the drive is stored encrypted on the drive
[21:05] <Riddell> nixternal: your first publication!
[21:05] <DaSkreech> But it's encrypted
[21:05] <fdoving> mhb: can't you fetch only packagenames and states first, then the detailed info on request?
[21:06] <buz> you need the password to decrypt the key stored on the drive which is used to decrypt the data
[21:06] <DaSkreech> Ah so you have to provide the Key
[21:06] <DaSkreech> ok
[21:06] <mhb> Riddell: the dot article? how come it is published by sebas then?
[21:06] <buz> having one key stored on the drive means you can change passwords without reencrypting everything
[21:06] <Riddell> mhb: he submitted it, nixternal ticked the publish button
[21:07] <mhb> ah, okay, proofreading
[21:07] <Riddell> and box ticking!
[21:08] <Riddell> nixternal: you didn't republish it, which is fine since it was only recently submitted, but mind to republish if it has been in the queue for more than a couple of hours
[21:11] <jpatrick> Riddell: would merging debian changelog be enough?
[21:12] <jpatrick> all, the other changes are the ones in KUBUNTU-....
[21:12] <nixternal> Riddell: gotcha, that explains "repost" :)
[21:13] <Serega> guys, how are you debugging (non-kdevelop projects) usually? kdbg? ddd? naked gdb?
[21:13] <Riddell> jpatrick: yes
[21:14] <Riddell> Serega: gdb
[21:14] <jpatrick> ok, so that's that done
[21:14] <Serega> cool...
[21:20] <yuriy> DaSkreech: yeah i saw that, it's gorgeous, like all nuno's work
[21:22] <jpatrick> Riddell: k3b uploaded to revu
[21:23] <DaSkreech> yuriy: What get new stuff button ?
[21:26] <yuriy> DaSkreech: in the previous (aseigo's?) mockup there's a get new stuff button
[21:26] <DaSkreech> yuriy: Ah right :) Yeah that's funny
[21:27] <yuriy> i think the idea is for it to launch KHotNewStuff to get more plasmoids, but it would seem sensible to have it launch Add/Remove Programs
[21:30] <DaSkreech> yuriy: official response is bring you a lovely girl or a rugbyman after a simple question
[21:31] <DaSkreech> Well depending
[21:34] <jpatrick> Riddell: things in lintian need to be sorted however it's not letting me upload due to a failed upload
[21:42] <DaSkreech> http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=202600158
[21:48] <Nyle> ok
[21:48] <Nyle> hi
[21:48] <Nyle> I have the kubuntu gusty
[21:49] <Nyle> I am using latest updates and all that
[21:49] <DrakeJustice_> Nyle: #kubuntu will help more than this channel
[21:49] <Nyle> this keeps happening on a consistent basis, but I can't make it happen, it just seems to happen
[21:49] <Nyle> if I click a menu, sometimes that will trigger X/kdm to reboot
[21:49] <Nyle> sometimes it happens when moving a window
[21:50] <Nyle> sometimes entire system locks up and sometimes goes blank
[21:50] <Nyle> if i click shutdown, the system sometimes locks up with black screen
[21:50] <Nyle> DrakeJustice_: 05:48 <       DaSkreech> Nyle: can you jump to #kubuntu-devel and explain what happens
[21:51] <DaSkreech> Nyle: When you drag a window X crashes ?
[21:51] <ryanakca> Nyle: Compiz/beryl/etc?
[21:51] <Nyle> sometimes
[21:51] <Nyle> compiz fusion, even without sometimes
[21:52] <Nyle> sometimes running applications will just diappear
[21:52] <Nyle> not even windows
[21:52] <Nyle> just background proceses sometimes just disappear like they were never running
[21:53] <ryanakca> Nyle: odd... background processes = in terminal type thing?
[21:53] <Nyle> yes
[21:53] <DaSkreech> Nyle: Whats your load ?
[21:53] <Nyle> 145 lbs
[21:53] <Nyle> why?
[21:53] <ryanakca> no, computer load :P
[21:53] <ryanakca> run top
[21:53] <Nyle> how do i know?
[21:53] <Nyle> ok
[21:53] <DaSkreech> When processes start dying it' s a good indication taht the kernel is trying to get back memory
[21:53] <Nyle> top - 17:53:50 up 19:17,  2 users,  load average: 0.07, 0.09, 0.25
[21:53] <DaSkreech> Nyle: It's in the top right hand cornere
[21:54] <DaSkreech> well that's not it :)
[21:54] <Nyle> Mem:          2026       1828        197          0        579        753
[21:54] <Nyle> this only happens in gusty ubunti
[21:54] <Nyle> kubntu
[21:54] <Nyle> not in debian or xp
[21:55] <Nyle> I tried to look at some logs but they don't make sense to me
[21:55] <DrakeJustice_> Nyle is stoned
[21:55] <Nyle> what to do what to do
[21:55] <Nyle> DrakeJustice_: not right now
[21:55]  * ryanakca raises his eyebrows at DrakeJustice_ 
[21:56] <DaSkreech> Nyle: does it happen after being up a certain time or will it happen after hours as well as withing 15 minutes of loggin in?
[21:56] <Nyle> random times
[21:56] <Nyle> unpredictable
[21:56] <DrakeJustice_> lol
[21:56] <Nyle> ryanakca: my ip before the @ is stoned handle
[21:56] <DaSkreech> Nyle: Have you looked at the X logs?
[21:56] <ryanakca> Nyle: ah, hehe :)
[21:56] <Nyle> I tried to DaSkreech but won't make sense
[21:57] <ryanakca> Nyle: *shrugs*, pastebin them, along with /etc/X11/xorg.conf ?
[21:57] <Nyle> ok
[21:57] <DaSkreech> Nyle: you are looking for any line that has EE
[21:57] <Nyle> which log files are you wanting?
[21:57] <Nyle> and which paste service to use that accepts large log file
[21:57] <DaSkreech> Nyle: ok  You can probably get help in #kubuntu I thought it was a different issue
[21:57]  * ryanakca doesn't know if it's of any use, but DaSkreech knows more about it that I do :)
[21:57] <Nyle> DaSkreech: ok
[21:58] <Nyle> what do you guys do?
[21:58] <Nyle> you take kde and modify it for ubutnu?
[21:58] <DaSkreech> Nyle: the /var/log/Xorg.0.log file and the /etc/X11/xorg.conf file
[21:58] <DaSkreech> Nyle: Yeah
[21:58] <Nyle> hmm
[21:58] <Nyle> mostly good work but some problems are here
[21:59] <Nyle> for exmaple it deleted my mouse gestures in input actions
[21:59]  * ryanakca invites Nyle to share them with us :)
[21:59] <Nyle> gusty did feisty was awesome
[21:59] <Nyle> that is 1
[21:59] <mhb> ooh I love that article, DaSkreech
[21:59] <Nyle> oh, and the default kmenu looks really ugly (personal teaste)
[22:00] <mhb> Obstacle: KDE Must Replace GNOME As Linux's Preferred GUI
[22:00] <mhb> especially this part
[22:00] <Nyle> also open office is installed by default instead of koffice
[22:00] <Nyle> on the distribution cd
[22:01] <Nyle> not enough kde stuff is installed
[22:01] <DaSkreech> mhb: :)
[22:01] <Nyle> its very small on the kde part
[22:01] <DaSkreech> Nyle: We would love to ship Koffice
[22:01] <Nyle> but.?
[22:01] <DrakeJustice_> global linux solution: 'cat log | grep EE' lol
[22:02] <Nyle> oh and also, unlike feisty, there is one more problem
[22:02] <DaSkreech> Nyle: doesn't have decent support for "other formats"
[22:02] <Nyle> the gtk2-engines-gtk-qt isn't installed by default
[22:02] <DaSkreech> it also doesn't have excellent support for ODF either
[22:03] <Nyle> so there is no way to configure those ugly gtk2 apps
[22:03] <Nyle> i hate gtk
[22:03] <Nyle> rest of the polish work is nice
[22:03] <Nyle> i don't have to do much really
[22:03]  * ryanakca wonders why people need openoffice and koffice when they can just use vi/emacs/ed/kate/prefered-editor + LaTeX ;)
[22:04] <Nyle> are you seriously asking?
[22:04]  * DaSkreech du -ck tapes ryanakca to the LaTex
[22:04] <ryanakca> the wink at the end hinted at my sarcasm :P
[22:04] <Nyle> now that I have told you how I feel about kubuntu
[22:05] <sebas> nixternal: Wonderful, thanks!
[22:05] <Nyle> what do you have to say?
[22:05] <DaSkreech> Nyle: Glad you like it ! we are working hard to make it better. Would you like to work with us?
[22:05] <Nyle> do I get paid?
[22:05] <DaSkreech> Ask mark :)
[22:05] <nixternal> no problem sebas
[22:06] <Nyle> I only need 1000 dollars a month
[22:06] <Nyle> to live
[22:06] <Nyle> you pay me, and I do fulltime work on kubuntu
[22:06] <Nyle> hell i'll work all day
[22:06] <Nyle> :D
[22:07]  * ryanakca suggests you become a Kubuntu member first... not required, but it would help :)
[22:07] <Nyle> in fact, forget the money, give me an unlimited supply of pottery equipment
[22:07] <Nyle> *wink wink*
[22:07]  * nixternal suggests you twist sabdfl's arm first
[22:07] <Nyle> oh hey
[22:07] <Nyle> btw
[22:08] <ryanakca> hehe, I'd get payed if I could... but... I can't competently program, so I end up doing random tidbits for people :)
[22:08] <Nyle> I got the feisty soruce package of kxdocker, applied the kubuntu patch, and then applied the patch for compiz, and compiled it, but it crashed if you try to go to the settings dialoge
[22:08] <Nyle> also, if I try to use dpkg-buildpacakge or dh-make or apt-get -b etc.
[22:09] <Nyle> it errors out, however I can manually build the source through ./configure make
[22:09] <ryanakca> Nyle: use sbuild or pbuilder instead, much safer :)
[22:09] <Nyle> I heard about pbuilder
[22:09] <ryanakca> I like sbuild + LVM better though :)
[22:10] <Nyle> I'm going to package doomsday for debian
[22:10] <Nyle> dunno anything about kubuntu or ubuntu
[22:10] <Nyle> my first week using it
[22:11] <Nyle> except for the amazingly annoying lockups and crashes, its nice
[22:11] <ryanakca> if it gets into Debian, it'll almost definitely (*doesn't know if there ever is a debian package that doesn't get synced/merged into Ubuntu*) end up in (*)ubuntu
[22:11] <Nyle> well
[22:12] <Nyle> the packge I was working on last wasn't in debian until well after it was in ubunt... nevermind
[22:12] <Nyle> it wasn't an official package
[22:12] <Nyle> 3rd party
[22:12] <Nyle> but then someone else took over so I said take it away
[22:12] <Nyle> its SMC, secret maryo chronicles
[22:12] <Nyle> so i guess yeh, it ws in debian first
[22:12] <ryanakca> Oooh, I remember trying to package that... /bad/ first package.
[22:13] <Nyle> he was more dedicated
[22:13] <Nyle> plus he was also the maintainer of the dependecies of the game
[22:13] <Nyle> i worked on it for 70+ days and he did for uptil now
[22:13] <Nyle> and onwards
[22:14] <Nyle> I was gonna take up bubs n bros game
[22:20] <Nyle> you know that expression
[22:20] <Nyle> where in god's green goodness am I going to .....blahblahblah
[22:20] <Nyle> I like green goodness
[22:20] <Nyle> eheheheh
[22:20] <ryanakca> hehe
[22:20]  * ryanakca => supper
[22:21] <sebas> nixternal: You're now on my nag-list to get dot stories posted (lucky you, Riddell)
[22:22] <nixternal> hehe, gee thanks :)
[22:22]  * nixternal goes into hiding
[22:22] <jpatrick> nixternal: could you revu http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=k3b ?
[22:22] <nixternal> BUILD KDE 4 MODS BUILD!
[22:22] <nixternal> jpatrick: depends on how much money you have?
[22:23] <jpatrick> nixternal: 10 cents
[22:23] <nixternal> dgetting it now
[22:23] <jpatrick> wait, lastest upload is yet to show up
[22:24] <crimsun_> dang, ten cents?
[22:24] <crimsun_> I feel ripped off
[22:24] <crimsun_> I can't get Rich to do anything for any amount of money
[22:26] <jpatrick> directory (/var/revu/revu1-incoming/k3b-0711030101/) of upload (496) not found
[22:26] <jpatrick> that's great :(
[22:29] <nixternal> crimsun_: I told you, no matter what you need, I will help you, but you gotta fix Intel HDA first
[22:29] <nixternal> until then, no help for you!
[22:30] <DaSkreech> Is Beta4 out yet?
[22:30] <DaSkreech>  I know it's been taged
[22:31] <nixternal> !topic
[22:31] <ubotu> Please read the channel topic whenever you enter, as it contains important information. To view it at any time after joining, simply type /topic
[22:31] <DaSkreech>  No not for Kubuntu
[22:31] <DaSkreech> I know that
[22:32] <DaSkreech> ever mind I'll go read dot
[22:32] <nixternal> well if we are working on it, wouldn't that mean it is out? :p
[22:32] <mhb> Please read the dot.kde.org whenever you ask such questions.
[22:32] <DaSkreech>  I'm a few days out of the news loop
[22:32]  * mhb is mimicking the bot style
[22:32] <DaSkreech> nixternal: :-P no that means it's tagged
[22:32] <nixternal> lol
[22:32] <DaSkreech> Wish I wasn't so damn tired
[22:32] <nixternal> DaSkreech: Debian released a KDE Live CD yesterday featuring Beta 4, wouldn't that mean it is out?
[22:32] <nixternal> :p
[22:33] <DaSkreech>  Stupid staying up late at night
[22:33] <nixternal> I am tired myself
[22:33] <DaSkreech> nixternal: Hmm good point
[22:33] <DaSkreech> I should pull that and see how it is
[22:33] <DaSkreech> mhb: KDE needs to replace Gnome ;-)
[22:33] <nixternal> wouldn't boot for me
[22:34] <DaSkreech> GNOME is attractive to some seasoned Linux users because it one of the few complete desktop environments that is more lightweight than KDE,
[22:34] <nixternal> I love people who make stupid comments like that
[22:34] <nixternal> I wonder what they mean by lightweight? Gnomes menu bars are smaller than Kicker?
[22:34] <DaSkreech> The limitations in GNOME are also unobtrusive to someone who knows how to get around them;
[22:34] <DaSkreech> nixternal: I think he meant RAM
[22:35] <jpatrick> nixternal: ok, done: http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?package=k3b
[22:35] <nixternal> DaSkreech: if he means RAM, then that statement is totally wrong
[22:35] <DaSkreech> The argument goes that Gnome on first boot uses less RAM than KDE but KDE uses RAM more fficently
[22:35] <nixternal> KDE has been benchmarked against Gnome, Xfce, and flat out X iirc, and the winner was XFCE with KDE in second, and Gnome light years behind
[22:35] <mhb> nixternal: I love people who kind of mention Kubuntu as the most promising distro out there
[22:36] <DaSkreech>  so if you have a server that you don't intend to look at very often but want a GUI then ship with Gnome
[22:36] <DaSkreech> mhb: Young distros are always promising
[22:36] <nixternal> it is to me, as it isn't loaded with 1) Firefox (eww), 2) non-free codecs, 3) because I work here
[22:37] <DaSkreech> Ha ha
[22:37] <DaSkreech> 3 FTW!
[22:37] <nixternal> Riddell: plasma-playground is trying to overwrite plasma_applet_battery.so which is from -workspace (fyi)
[22:39] <nixternal> actually, it is trying to overwrite a lot that is provided in -workspace
[23:28] <DaSkreech> What is the point of PackageKit?
[23:36] <DaSkreech> Anyone use akregator?
[23:41] <DaSkreech> seele: :-)
[23:43] <nosrednaekim> ah! celeste is a Kubuntu dev?
[23:44] <imbrandon> anyone got a merge they just dont feel like doing ? i'm outa merges
[23:44] <DaSkreech> Hmm?
[23:44] <imbrandon> Riddell, ^^
[23:44] <DaSkreech> Ha ha :)
[23:44] <imbrandon> nosrednaekim, yes celeste / seele is a Kubuntu contributor , dunno much about packaging work though she concentrates on others things iirc
[23:45] <nosrednaekim> BRB
[23:45] <DaSkreech> She's uber translator
[23:46] <imbrandon> moreso design and useability and such, but i cant speak for her
[23:46] <DaSkreech> Yeah
[23:47] <DaSkreech> she translates between computer and human between dev and Devin
[23:48] <DaSkreech> Uber ;-)