[00:02] <schierbeck> jelmer: ping
[00:08] <jaavaaguru> Hi, we're trialling using Bazaar in place of SVN in the place I work, primarily because it handles merging, and multiple personal branches much better. Some of my colleagues using Windows have had problems setting up bzr-gtk, and it looks like the problems are GTK related.
[00:09] <jaavaaguru> One of the guys mailed the list today, but it doesn't seem to have arrived... although that may be something he did wrong
[00:09] <jaavaaguru> I was wondering if it's worth pursuing a wxWidgets client, as we have other things using GTK, and there are various installations of GTK going around on Windows
[00:10] <jaavaaguru> (they're mainly looking for GUI diff/merge support)
[00:20] <Peng> I know you can set bzr to use external diff programs (difftools plugin), and there's probably something for merging too.
[00:20] <Peng> I doubt anyone would be mad if you made a wxWidgets client, though.....
[00:20] <jaavaaguru> Peng: really? cool. I haven't seen that yet
[00:20] <jaavaaguru> I'll have a look now
[00:22] <jaavaaguru> I may have a look into wxWidgets support in the long term, as I've made a wxWidgets client for one of our internal systems using Python. I'm loving Python and wx seems pretty simple to develop for
[00:22] <Peng> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bzr/+bug/41435
[00:22] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 41435 in bzr "Framework for external diff/merge tools" [Medium,Confirmed]
[00:22] <Peng> difftools and extmerge, apparently.
[00:23] <jaavaaguru> cool, that will make some of my colleagues happy. I'm pretty happy with the standard bzr diff, and have had no merge problems that I can't solve myself, so I'm happier using bzr than svn so far
[00:24] <jaavaaguru> I'm in the UK, so it's getting kind of late just now. I intend having a look at Bazaar's API tomorrow. Any suggested URLs?
[00:24] <Peng> Bazaar has a cool diff algorithm. :)
[00:24] <Peng> patiencediff.
[00:25] <Peng> jaavaaguru: I dunno. http://bazaar-vcs.org/
[00:25] <jaavaaguru> One thing we miss though: being able to ignore changes between CRLF and LF line endings
[00:26] <jaavaaguru> ;-)
[00:26] <Peng> jaavaaguru: http://doc.bazaar-vcs.org/latest/developers/HACKING.html , perhaps.
[00:26] <jaavaaguru> we do mixed Linux/Solaris/Mac/Windows stuff
[00:26] <Peng> jaavaaguru: Yeah, there are proposals about that, but none of it is finished.
[00:26] <jaavaaguru> Thanks Peng, sorry if I'm coming across as being lazy just now
[00:28] <jaavaaguru> If I come up with anything cool, I'll add it to Launchpad along with the CCNet plugin I wrote for Bazaar, and let you guys know
[00:29] <jaavaaguru> I've been watching the progress of 0.92 on the list... looks very good :-)
[00:30] <Peng> Yep.
[00:31] <jaavaaguru> I'm in a team of 6 people within our department and our team has been using bazaar for the last 4 weeks. We're developing a Mono/.Net app, and are using CruiseControl.NET. Seems like some of those choices may be making things difficult for ourselves, but it's all a good learning experience
[00:32] <jaavaaguru> From my experience so far, I'm all for anything that helps pick up support for bazaar among the Windows guys :-)
[00:32] <Peng> :)
[00:47] <keir> jaavaaguru, what choices have made it hard? bzr?
[00:48] <jaavaaguru> Initially, there was the "we know svn now, and we don't want to change" problem, but now I have a few colleagues using bzr, and they're amazed at how simple merging is compared to svn, and that we can have our own personal branches with no extra effort. That's a big thing for us, as we're developing a project from scratch.
[00:49] <keir> jaavaaguru, glad to hear that. but you mentioned 'some of those choices may be making things difficult for ourselves'; which choices were those?
[00:49] <jaavaaguru> Now that all of my team is using it (I'm not the project manager, but he's also using bzr now), the PM is looking for integration with things like KDiff3
[00:49] <jaavaaguru> ah...
[00:50] <jaavaaguru> I was meaning the CruiseControl.NET and ASP.NET things
[00:51] <jaavaaguru> I suggested bzr about a month ago, and once I got some adoption amongst out team, we discovered that our chosen continuous integration tool (CCNet) didnt support it
[00:51] <jaavaaguru> I got round that by writing a plugin
[00:53] <keir> jaavaaguru, was that hard?
[00:54] <keir> jaavaaguru, that quote you had was nice; would you mind if you rephrased it as a quote on bzr / why it's good / etc? to go on bazaar-vcs.org/Testimonials (currently empty)
[00:55] <jaavaaguru> sure
[00:55] <jaavaaguru> I'll make an iCal note to do that in the morning and jump back on here to confirm
[00:55] <keir> jaavaaguru, great! i may not be here but feel free to post it yourself
[00:56] <jaavaaguru> thanks :)
[00:59] <jaavaaguru> As we're still in the early stages of adoption, do you think it might be better if I wait until next week where we have to finalize integrating out web app client with our business logic (BL is using bzr, and web app is using SVN at the moment)
[00:59] <jaavaaguru> we plan on deciding to go with one or the other
[00:59] <jaavaaguru> (not my choice, i'll be pushing for both parts staying with what they currently use)
[01:00] <jaavaaguru> I imagine we'll have a decision by Wednesday
[01:00] <keir> i believe in 'right tool for the job'... depends on your needs
[01:00] <jaavaaguru> regardless of what happens, all my personal projects at work will be using Bazaar, and I have a reasonable say in these things :-()
[01:01] <keir> neat!
[01:02] <jaavaaguru> I'm trying to stay away from the ASP.NET bit... I have worked on it, but it seems like doing MVC development in ASP.NET will be a battle against the system until MS release their MVC framework later this year
[01:02] <jaavaaguru> even then, it will be a beta, so I'm not holding out for it
[01:02]  * jaavaaguru is getting to love TurboGears
[01:04] <jaavaaguru> Anyway, I have that calendar note to review my quote/testimonial, and will do after discussing our way forward on Monday
[01:04] <keir> jaavaaguru, great. i also like TG. django is nice too.
[01:06] <jaavaaguru> I've recently put together a TG app that renders our internal API documentation (mixture of Docbook XML and MS's XML documentaiton format) as web pages
[01:07] <jaavaaguru> as soon as I can get agreement that the company has nothing to do with the non-standard docbook-esque format we use, I'll put that on Launchpad too
[01:07] <jaavaaguru> I know it's probably not that much use to Ubuntu people, but for people working in a mixture of Windows/Linux, it's handy
[01:30] <jaavaaguru> thanks keir and Peng, I'm heading to bed. I'll have a good look at this stuff tomorrow
[01:31] <Peng> Good night. :)
[01:33] <jaavaaguru> good night
[07:33] <robcruseme> http://apps.facebook.com/prezident
[08:25] <jdub> jelmer: which version of bzr-svn should i be using with bzr 0.91?
[08:25] <jdub> jelmer: i've just updated to the latest in the 0.4 branch, which requires 0.92
[08:26] <jdub> and rebase doesn't load
[08:26] <jdub> ah, it needs 0.92 too
[14:06] <jelmer> jdub: Yeah, they both need 0.92. I believe the bazaar-vcs.org has 0.92rc1 debs
[14:10] <lifeless> hi jelmer
[14:11] <jelmer> 'morning lifeless
[14:11] <lifeless> jerry seems to be having fun with packs
[14:12] <jelmer> ah, that's good to hear
[14:12] <jelmer> what about the workflow issues, multi-push/pull?
[14:13] <lifeless> don't know yet
[14:13] <lifeless> I did explain that we treated it like a cp -a/rsync of directories situation, and that you did not need a tree per branch
[14:45] <fredp> hello; I have a local bzr branch of a remote svn repository; I could merge upstream change for a long time but now as I get back to work on this project I get this error message:
[14:45] <fredp> $ bzr merge
[14:45] <fredp> Merging from remembered location svn+ssh://fpeters@svn.gnome.org/svn/jhbuild/trunk
[14:45] <fredp> bzr: ERROR: Repository KnitRepository('file:///home/fred/src/jhdebuild/.bzr/') is not compatible with repository SvnRepository('svn+ssh://fpeters@svn.gnome.org/svn/jhbuild')
[14:45] <fredp> does anybody know what is happening there, and how I could fix that ?
[14:46] <jam-laptop> fredp: newer versions of bzr-svn require you to use Knit3 repositories
[14:46] <jam-laptop> fredp: bzr upgrade --format=dirstate-with-subtree
[14:46] <jam-laptop> however, you may also need to create a new conversiosn
[14:46] <lifeless> there is a bzr svn-upgrade command
[14:46] <jam-laptop> since I'm guessing this is going from bzr-svn 0.3 to 0.4
[14:46] <lifeless> that jelmer wrote; I believe that that is the recommended way to convert
[14:47] <lifeless> jelmer: we really need to make this easier; especially if its going to happen in the future. What can I do to make it easier?
[14:47] <lifeless> brb
[14:47] <jelmer> lifeless: Make svn-upgrade easier or the rich-root stuff?
[14:54] <lifeless> jelmer: make the user experience more pleasant when they dist-upgrade
[14:54] <lifeless> jelmer: and suddenly have a new version of bzr-svn
[14:54] <lifeless> and no warning
[14:56] <jelmer> If we do a pull/merge and the remote host diverges, we could check if the local branch contains revision generated with an older version of bzr-svn and warn
[14:56] <jelmer> another option would be to support multiple versions of the mappings in one instance of bzr-svn
[14:57] <lifeless> well right now it's hurting folok  we really want to impress - users of svn in gnome
[14:57] <lifeless> if I was at home I'd start hacking on making it better
[15:01] <fredp> $ bzr merge
[15:01] <fredp> Merging from remembered location svn+ssh://fpeters@svn.gnome.org/svn/jhbuild/trunk
[15:01] <fredp> bzr: ERROR: Branches have no common ancestor, and no merge base revision was specified.
[15:01] <fredp> but I only did bzr upgrade; I will do bzr svn-upgrade.
[15:02] <jelmer> lifeless: 0.4 was released ages ago (august 4), why is it such a problem all of a sudden?
[15:02] <fredp> bzr svn-upgrade
[15:02] <fredp> Using saved location: svn+ssh://fpeters@svn.gnome.org/svn/jhbuild/trunk
[15:02] <fredp> bzr: ERROR: Unable to import bzr-rebase (required for svn-upgrade support): No module named rebase.rebase
[15:02] <jelmer> fredp: You need to have the bzr-rebase package installed
[15:02] <fredp> jelmer: I came with this; because I went back on an older project; dating back before 0.4, I guess.
[15:03] <jelmer> ah, ok
[15:05] <jelmer> fredp: bzr-rebase is part of the distribution if you're running Debian sid, otherwise you should be able to install the plugin from http://people.samba.org/bzr/jelmer/bzr-rebase/trunk
[15:05] <fredp> jelmer: fails with an exception; http://pastebin.ca/759795
[15:07] <jelmer> fredp: that looks like bzr-rebase 0.1, it should be 0.2 :-/
[15:08] <fredp> jelmer: yes, looks debian only has 0.1; I'll get 0.2
[15:08] <jelmer> fredp: sid has 0.2
[15:08] <jelmer> http://packages.debian.org/sid/bzr-rebase
[15:09] <fredp> oh, mirror not uptodate, I'll use another one, damned.
[15:09] <jelmer> but that also relies on bzr >= 0.92rc1
[15:14] <fredp> jelmer: it ran fine without error; but now bzr diff lists all files, as removed then added
[15:14] <fredp> will I lose history if I commit ?
[15:16] <jelmer> oh, darn - it doesn't fix file ids in the working tree yet
[15:16] <jelmer> fredp: I'd suggest creating a copy of the branch you've just upgraded
[15:16] <fredp> I nevertheless commited and tried to bzr merge and got this AssertionError
[15:16] <fredp> http://pastebin.ca/759808
[15:17] <jelmer> or removing the working tree in the branch you've upgraded and then creating it again
[15:17] <jelmer> (bzr remove-tree; bzr checkout)
[15:17] <jelmer> perhaps we should mark svn-upgrade as experimental for now
[15:18] <lifeless> jelmer: gutsy release
[15:19] <jelmer> lifeless: ahh, ok
[15:19] <jelmer> lifeless: gutsy has bzr-svn 0.4.1!?
[15:19] <lifeless> yes
[15:19] <fredp> jelmer: branching off then bzr merge, and it worked.
[15:19] <lifeless> apt-cache madison bzr-svn
[15:19] <lifeless>    bzr-svn |    0.4.1-1 | http://au.archive.ubuntu.com gutsy/universe Packages
[15:19] <lifeless>    bzr-svn |    0.4.1-1 | http://au.archive.ubuntu.com gutsy/universe Sources
[15:20] <lifeless> the software escaped
[15:20] <fredp> thanks for your support; I can get to resolving the few conflicts.
[15:20] <jelmer> fredp: no worries, sorry this process is a bit less smooth than it could be :-/
[15:21] <lifeless> jelmer: more info
[15:21] <lifeless> 00:06 < jdub> i pulled in bzr from hardon, but his latest rebase/svn require 0.92
[15:21] <lifeless> 00:06 < jdub> so it just got beyond a joke
[15:22] <jelmer> lifeless: they require 0.92 or 0.92rc1, the latter of which is packaged
[15:22] <jelmer> and they're all three packaged in debian
[15:22] <lifeless> yes, but gutsy is out, so we're going to have a little bit of a problem getting fixes to users
[15:23] <lifeless> I'll had rebase to the bazaar-vcs.org packages asap
[15:23] <jelmer> I'm surprised though that gutsy has 0.4.1 - 0.4.2 was released and packaged for debian on 9 sept, was that already before the UVF?
[15:24] <lifeless> 9 sept was after UVF I think
[15:28] <lifeless> ok, bztools -> bazar-vcs.org repo
[15:29] <jelmer> lifeless: bzr-svn doesn't appear to be on bazaar-vcs.org either
[15:29] <lifeless> its not
[15:29] <lifeless> I need to get a svn build for the indings foo for dapper; hmm
[15:29] <lifeless> perhaps ignore dapper for a bit
[15:31] <jelmer> Having bzr-svn up would improve the user experience a lot methinks
[15:31] <jelmer> 71 bugs have been fixed since 0.4.1
[15:32] <lifeless> ok
[15:32] <lifeless> I have to do some shopping now; will look into it later
[15:32] <jelmer> k
[15:42] <lifeless> jam-laptop: a review of my reconcile stuff would be nice
[15:42] <lifeless> jam-laptop: if you have time :)
[15:42] <lifeless> ciao for now
[17:56] <siretart> dato: no, not at all. Thanks for the upload!
[18:50] <simony> are there packages for dvc for ubuntu?
[18:54] <dato> simony: dvc?
[18:57] <simony> the emacs bzr frontend
[18:57] <dato> ah. I don't know, sorry.
[19:06] <simony> don't you have some bzr integration in your editor of choice? :)
[19:13] <radix> http://pics.livejournal.com/deeptape/pic/000dp4t6/
[19:15] <mwhudson> radix: awesome
[20:04] <vila> simony: no package as dvc is currently evolving at  a fast peace, but it is hosted in a bzr branch: http://bzr.xsteve.at/dvc/
[20:06] <jaavaaguru> Peng, as I was talking about last night, I started writing a wxPython Bazaar client today.
[20:06] <jaavaaguru> http://sorn.net/~sandyd/blog/bzr-wx-2005.png
[20:06] <jaavaaguru> It's got init and commit support. moving onto merge support now
[20:23] <Peng> jaavaaguru: Cool.
[20:24] <Peng> jaavaaguru: I have to admit that I probably wouldn't use it (unless it was much better at something than the command line), though.
[20:24] <jaavaaguru> same here
[20:24] <Peng> Okay.
[20:24] <jaavaaguru> I'm creating it to make life easier for the Windows users who are used to things like Rapid SVN
[20:25] <Peng> Hmm.
[20:25] <jaavaaguru> I have also had some interest from OS X users
[20:25] <Peng> Maybe I should check out VCS GUIs. GUIs really are better for some things than CLIs.
[20:26] <jaavaaguru> I like diffing and merging in the GUI, it's usually faster
[20:26] <Peng> Hm.
[20:27] <Peng> Well, anyway, I'm AFK. Bye.
[20:27] <jaavaaguru> bye
[20:30] <jelmer> jaavaaguru: Have you tried qbzr at all?
[20:31] <jaavaaguru> I did try, and didn't get far on XP at work. I don't have a PC here to try it on at the moment. I should probably get the error message and try and figure out what went wrong
[21:18] <lifeless> jam-laptop: also there is a gtk gui as well FWIW
[21:41] <lifeless> jelmer - you could review teh patch too :)
[21:44] <jelmer> lifeless: which patch was that, the reconcile one?
[21:44] <lifeless> yes
[21:46] <jelmer> voila
[21:59] <somerville32> Hi
[22:03] <lifeless> hi
[22:06] <somerville32> Would it be possible to have it setup so that I have one main branch but then several other branches which are just parts of the pie of the first one?
[22:06] <somerville32> I'd like to have branches that represent modules in my project and than one big one that puts them all together.
[22:36] <lifeless> somerville32: the nested tree functionality can do that; its a bit raw right now though. which reminds me... LarstiQ: ping