[00:00] <LjL> gerro, then i guess you just haven't been on #ubuntu long enough. i wouldn't like to insult anyone's intelligence either, but *whenever* someone foolishly gave a very destructive command in #ubuntu, there *was* someone who ran it.
[00:00] <gerro> aye but to make such generalisations is prejudice bigotry
[00:00] <LjL> our policy is that giving such commands such simply not happen - not that it's the business of those who execute them
[00:00] <mneptok> gerro: accurately estimating someone's skills and tailoring your approach is not condescension. it's common courtesy.
[00:00] <LjL> of course, mistakes can happen, and one may give a potentially dangerous command or instruction without realizing it's dangerous
[00:00] <tonyyarusso> It's bigotry to refrain from telling people to do stupid things?
[00:01] <LjL> but that doesn't mean one should systematically disregard the possibility that their advice might be bad, and give random advice anyway assuming that the users will know better
[00:01] <LjL> the users will NOT know better, as they're in #ubuntu to GET help
[00:01] <gerro> to consider someone foolish on either side
[00:01] <LjL> GOOD help
[00:02] <nalioth> they trust the help they get in #ubuntu will not harm them
[00:02] <gerro> I have not harmed anyone
[00:02] <nalioth> gerro: you're missing the point.
[00:02] <gerro> but if they ask me such I will tell them regardless
[00:03] <mneptok> gerro: if you're going to willingly dispense advice that goes against Ubuntu best practices, then i'm in no hurry to see you unbanned.
[00:03] <mneptok> but that's just me.
[00:03] <gerro> you can not know how what you say will be used no matter how you comment it
[00:04] <Seeker`> gerro: it is irresponsible to assume that people who are asking for help know what they are doing / experts
[00:04] <gerro> what is Ubuntu's best practices?
[00:04] <LjL> gerro, i do understand that you may not agree with our policies on channel running. however, i merely ask you to either respect them anyway, or avoid giving advice in #ubuntu - it's your choice, nobody forces you either way. i will happily unban you if you understand that you aren't supposed to give ANY sort of advice.
[00:04] <gerro> I only disagree with your policies LjL
[00:04] <mneptok> gerro: novice users should not be poking around with sudo in /usr
[00:04] <gerro> and there is no "our" you just disrespected every user of ubuntu everywhere
[00:05] <LjL> gerro, the policies, or best practices, are to give advice that is supported by the official Ubuntu documentation; to always prefer packages in the repositories when available; to avoid giving instructions that may harm a system; to avoid giving instructions that may hinder the functioning of official Ubuntu features, such as APT
[00:06] <LjL> gerro, i think there is an "our", as for now, i see every other operator in here agreeing with me, unless i'm blind
[00:06] <gerro> I do not know that user personally or out of irc, I can not judge him to be a novice. I have installed many programs not through apt into /usr
[00:07] <mneptok> and in this particular case, i'm telling point blank that unleashing rm -rf on /usr and wielded by novices is not a good practice, and should be discouraged.
[00:07] <Seeker`> gerro: but you cannot judge him to be an expert, so you assume they are a novice, which is the safest option
[00:07] <LjL> gerro: is there any valid reason why you didn't install them into /usr/local or /opt instead?
[00:08] <mneptok> LjL: that sounds like a whole different conversation i'd like to ignore :)
[00:08] <gerro> mneptok: those were two different users
[00:08] <gerro> mneptok: I would never tell someone to rm random system files
[00:09] <gerro> mneptok: my problem with LjL is he told someone they couldn't use /usr unless they used apt, and trolled me about using the rm command
[00:10] <gerro> I told him it was like he said personal preference for both
[00:10] <LjL> mneptok, it's part of the reason he was banned, in a way. it went like this: 1) he advised a user, "always do rm -Rf to delete something"  2) i gave him !worksforme  3) i told a user who had just removed /usr/lib/apache2 manually to never do that again, because only APT should touch /usr  4) he said "ma[n]y programs use /usr not just apt, its like the place to put general applications"
[00:10] <mneptok> gerro: being told a factoid by the channel bot is not trolling.
[00:10] <LjL> for the others' benefit as well
[00:10] <LjL> then he gave me !worksforme and left
[00:10] <mneptok> gerro: not when the attempt is an honest attempth to educate
[00:10] <gerro> mneptok: trolling, spam, whatever you prefer to call it
[00:10] <gerro> LjL: why is it wrong to leave?
[00:11] <mneptok> gerro: /ignore works in most modern IRC clients ....  *shrug*
[00:11] <LjL> gerro: it's not wrong, but it definitely gave me the impression that you were just trolling me
[00:11] <gerro> mneptok: not wise to do when you can get banned
[00:11] <LjL> as an aside, it's interesting that a lot of people are spamming #Ubuntu right while we're here arguing.
[00:11] <LjL> oh well, must be coincidential.
[00:11] <somerville32> :(
[00:11] <gerro> LjL: what does that have to do with anything?
[00:12] <LjL> gerro: nothing, just saying.
[00:12] <LjL> i mean, "as an aside"
[00:12] <gerro> I'm sorry I don't study drama
[00:12] <LjL> well, just disregard that comment.
[00:12] <gerro> kk
[00:14] <LjL> gerro, anyway, as far as the !worksforme | ljl and-then-leaving goes, again, i'd be the happiest to remove your ban. the problem however is that this discussion we've had leads me to believe that your idea of "offering support" is entirely different from what we expect in #ubuntu -- if that has to mean you aren't going to offer any more support, then i must say, so be it
[00:17] <gerro> I didn't ask for you specifically to remove the ban and I really don't care what anyones idea is of "offering support" so long as there is freedom of speech. In the end whatever happens happens and I hope we can all learn something.
 I didn't ask for you specifically to remove the ban - ????? Your opening line was: <gerro> I'd like to appeal a ban imposed by LjL,
[00:18] <somerville32> Oh well
[00:18] <gerro> I really do wish to /ignore LjL
[00:19] <LjL> gerro: there isn't "freedom of speech" in most senses of the world on IRC channels
[00:19] <gerro> I find him rather insulting to common users of Ubuntu of which I am related
[00:20] <gerro> LjL: you can not raise one instance where advice I gave broke anyones system or inhibited someone
[00:20] <gerro> your just hitting in the dark at hypothetical situations with no backing
[00:20] <PriceChild> gerro, please /ignore ljl, ​if you wish.
[00:20] <gerro> PriceChild: thank you
[00:21] <LjL> gerro: that's not the point. you have very explicitly stated that, if allowed in #ubuntu, you'd feel free to give people any sort of advice you feel like, whether good or bad, whether supported or unsupported, etc.  that's not acceptable, period.
[00:21] <PriceChild> You need no-one's approval to do that.
[00:21] <LjL> i think you have had your appeal, since several other operators gave their opinion
[00:21] <gerro> I'd give them good idea but whose the judge of what is good or not
[00:21] <LjL> us.
[00:22] <LjL> ultimately.
[00:22] <gerro> I only confronted you LjL
[00:22] <PriceChild> gerro, that is unacceptable though...
[00:22] <PriceChild> gerro, people come into #ubuntu for advice, good advice.
[00:22] <LjL> gerro, are you still missing the point that all the other operators who just gave their opinion disagreed with your view?
[00:23] <LjL> so, stop thinking it's an issue with me.
[00:23] <PriceChild> gerro, I admit I haven't read the logs of the incident yet, but I am totally opposed to your views on this that I have seen you express.
[00:23] <PriceChild> gerro, many users won't ever have used the cli before being instructed to in #ubuntu
[00:23] <gerro> PriceChild: they asked a cli question and I gave the anser
[00:23] <gerro> answer*
[00:23] <LjL> PriceChild, indeed the incident was fairly minor, and i'd have been very willing to remove the ban after clarifying each other. but what we clarified is quite disconcerning
[00:24] <Pici> LjL: +1
[00:24] <PriceChild> gerro, as I have stated, I haven't looked at that. But we do not want bad advice given in our channel, EOD.
[00:25] <nalioth> people who come to #ubuntu expect answers that will not hurt their systems.  Many who come there have never used a non-Windows OS before and are totally at the mercy of those providing answers
[00:26] <gerro> bad advice is not relative to any persons view, it either physically is or it isn't
[00:26] <nalioth> advising rm -rf /usr is bad advice
[00:26] <gerro> I did NOT** do that
[00:26] <LjL> nalioth, that's not what he did
[00:26] <gerro> okay?
[00:26] <PriceChild> gerro, I'm afraid I don't understand that....? physically?
[00:28] <gerro> PriceChild: LjL stated I *could* have let someone whom is stupid damage their system. Which brings to wonder why they are calling ubuntu users stupid. Wouldn't they damage it either way if I were there? And least they learned something they requested themself. I did not have any part in what someone else did
[00:28] <gerro> if I weren't there I meant
[00:28] <PriceChild> Ok I don't think we are getting the point across and so there is no further use in discussion.
[00:28] <nalioth> gerro: i suspect LjL meant 'ignorant' not 'stupid'
[00:28] <Pici> I think hes trying to say that bad advice is objective, not subjective.
[00:28] <gerro> nalioth: both the same
[00:28] <gerro> Pici: exactly!
[00:28] <nalioth> gerro: ignorance is reduced through education, but stupid people choose not to learn
[00:29] <nalioth> gerro: i'm sorry, but 'ignorant' and 'stupid' are definitely NOT the same
[00:30] <PriceChild> gerro, The ban will not be lifted at this time. I suggest you /msg ubotu guidelines, and think further about the damage that can be caused by questionable advice given to beginners in #ubuntu.
[00:30] <gerro> nalioth: I see where your going
[00:31] <gerro> it doesn't state #ubuntu is for beginners
[00:31] <gerro> and they asked about the cli
[00:31] <PriceChild> I never said it wasn't.
[00:31] <PriceChild> I simply suggested you think further about the damage that can be caused by questionable advice given to beginners in #ubuntu.
[00:31] <nalioth> in #ubuntu you should consider anyone who asks a question to be a beginner
[00:32] <gerro> is it wrong of me to ask non beginner related questions on #ubuntu?
[00:33] <nalioth> gerro: not at all
[00:33] <PriceChild> gerro, of course not.
[00:33] <gerro> just wondering if I was on topic cause I sometimes ask about things on there
[00:33] <PriceChild> Please don't try and be clever with us.
[00:33] <gerro> no I was just wondering about that! I don't keep up on news and stuff about channels etc
[00:34] <gerro> only recently found there was an #ubuntu-offtopic and never knew about this channel
[00:34] <PriceChild> gerro, is there anything else that we can help you with today?
[00:34] <gerro> I really don't know
[00:34] <gerro> I was merely replying to situation earlier seeing as LjL found it so offensive I had to leave suddenly
[00:36] <PriceChild> gerro, Ljl did not find it offensive, he requested you think further about the advice that you give. You had no need to leave suddenly.
[00:36] <gerro> he stated himself 3 times that I left so suddenly earlier before I was banned
[00:37] <PriceChild> gerro, that bears no relevance.
[00:37] <gerro> I know I just didn't want to be rude
[00:38] <PriceChild> gerro, I really don't understand what you're trying to get at, I have already stated above our decision, and suggested you think about what damage bad advice can have.
[00:38] <gerro> that is why I came here and promptly stated the situation
[00:38] <PriceChild> And I've stated our decision...
[00:38] <LjL> gerro, i may have misinterpreted that as rudeness, but that's not the problem now -- the problem now is that, as you repeatedly stated, you're not willing to go with supported/"good" advice in #ubuntu
[00:38] <PriceChild> after reviewing your attitude in this channel, and the logs of you in #ubuntu, the ban will not be lifted at this time.
[00:39] <gerro> I have stated that I will give good support to the best of my knowledge
[00:39] <PriceChild> No you didn't...
[00:39] <gerro> yes I have
[00:42] <gerro> as far as guidelines and other peoples views, I know nothing of them and refuse to because there is no manual for them.
[00:42] <PriceChild> !guidelines
[00:42] <ubotu> The people in this channel are volunteers. Your attitude will determine how fast you are helped. See also http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[00:42] <gerro> except the ubotu thing that I didn't know exited
[00:42] <gerro> existed I mean
[00:42] <PriceChild> (It is also linked to from the #ubuntu channel /topic)
[00:43] <gerro> (I got banned from #ubuntu so can't read the /topic, the irony of that is rather funny lol)
[00:43] <Pici> /topic #ubuntu will return the channel topic
[00:44] <PriceChild> You would also have seen it on entry... *yawns*
[00:44] <PriceChild> How rude.
[00:48] <LjL> bots don't have feelings
[00:55] <gerro> I've been reading that page you linked me to and it says nothing about quality of advice you give on irc
[00:55] <gerro> however it did reference another page http://www.ubuntu.com/community/conduct is that to which your refering?
[00:56] <PriceChild> "Be considerate. Your work will be used by other people, and you in turn will depend on the work of others. Any decision you take will affect users and colleagues, and we expect you to take those consequences into account when making decisions." would apply here I think.
[00:56] <LjL> gerro: no, no, it's the guidelines. mostly the "When helping, be helpful" part. it says "Please try to avoid outdated, or possibly wrong information."
[00:56] <LjL> right, that, too
[00:57] <LjL> i agree that perhaps some things could be made more explicit in the guidelines.
[00:57] <PriceChild> as well as that :)
[00:57] <PriceChild> *sigh* I really didn't think it was needed....
[00:57] <gerro> I seem to think this discussion more reflects  The Ubuntu community and its members treat one another with respect. Everyone can make a valuable contribution to Ubuntu. We may not always agree, but disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour and poor manners.
[00:58] <gerro> thought that first comment was more oriented to developing..
[00:58] <PriceChild> gerro, I'm fed up now :/
[00:58] <LjL> PriceChild: well, it's not the first time this sort of argument comes up. i'm definitely not thinking of over-specific rules like "don't tell people to use automatix" (that sort of stuff is fine in the bot), but really, maybe the "when helping be helpful" part could be elaborated on.
[00:58] <PriceChild> gerro, We don't want bad advice given to users in #ubuntu
[00:59] <gerro> whose definition defines bad advice though
[00:59] <gerro> such rules can not be truthfully enforced
[00:59] <PriceChild> LjL, I thintk he last sentence covers it myself.
[00:59] <PriceChild> gerro, operators make the final decision, using their best judgement and we enforce it.
[00:59] <gerro> I never read that in the guidelines though ^^
[00:59] <LjL> gerro, as i said... ultimately, our decision. on our turn, we try to follow the official Ubuntu documentation, as well as some general rules which i *have* outlined to you earlier
[01:00] <PriceChild> gerro, that isn't our fault.
[01:00] <gerro> either way I don't see why I am being held accountable to things I have never been told and are undocumented as you have pointed out
[01:00] <PriceChild> gerro, if you do not read the /topic of a channel to find the guidelines... including some ridiculously obvious stuff like "don't give bad advice"... then more fool you.
[01:00] <nalioth> gerro: ahhh, in every country of the world "ignorance of the law is no excuse"
[01:01] <PriceChild> The guidelines ARE there.
[01:01] <jdong> the Ubuntu Technical Board would be the authority in what's considered bad advice
[01:01] <LjL> gerro, i wouldn't "account" you, and i already told you that i would be happy to unban you - BEFORE this conversation.
[01:01] <jdong> and what the IRC operators enforce is right in line with their opinions.
[01:01] <LjL> now, it's clear to me what your opinions are, and that they're NOT compatible with the way #ubuntu is run.
[01:01] <LjL> for reference, what i said earlier was: [01:05:58] <LjL> gerro, the policies, or best practices, are to give advice that is supported by the official Ubuntu documentation; to always prefer packages in the repositories when available; to avoid giving instructions that may harm a system; to avoid giving instructions that may hinder the functioning of official Ubuntu features, such as APT
[01:03] <LjL> PriceChild, i think the above (more, less, debatable) *might* have a place in the guidelines. the folks in -it have some new provisional guidelines that are quite explicit, for instance - *too* explicit for my tastes, as i told them, but imho some of that might have merits
[01:04] <PriceChild> gerro, I set a mute... allows you to rejoin but not talk.
[01:04] <mneptok> jdong: not to overstep my bounds, but i think opinions from my self or my colleagues can be used prior to an official TechBoard decision. for quick'n'dirty opinions.
[01:05] <PriceChild> I think we need to clarify what the "ubuntu-irc" team means also, how you get accepted, who's eligible etc. We should set a date for a IC meeting.
[01:05] <LjL> PriceChild: agree
[01:05] <jdong> mneptok: yes, I whole-heartedly agree
[01:05] <jdong> mneptok: I'm just saying the TB would be the most authoritative body and highest level of escalation in case of a disagreement.
[01:05] <mneptok> i think we're all equally uncomfortable with me coming within 10 astronomical units of official policy. ;)
[01:05] <PriceChild> From the CoC: "On technical matters, the Technical Review Board can make a final decision." - its a final decision... if agreements can't be made by those before, such as operators
[01:07] <LjL> PriceChild: which we generally do. but to avoid this kind of endless discussions with people who aren't OK with us "dictating policy" that's not already written into the guidelines, perhaps we should write it into the guidelines
[01:07] <LjL> again, obviously one can't put every single tiny issue into the guidelines
[01:07] <LjL> but an outline, and eventually a statement that "the operators use their best judgement to determine etc etc", might be of use
[01:09] <jdong> (1) discourage providing alternate, unofficial instructions for a task where there is an officially supported method in the repositories, (2) Discourage instructing users to compile or install packages outside the repositories without a clear disclaimer that it may cause undesired consequences .....
[01:09] <jdong> and that's way too much policy-talk for one night :D
[01:10]  * nalioth sends jdong off to hunt for kittens
[01:10] <LjL> jdong: is that from the forums guidelines or something, or you just made it up?
[01:10] <jdong> LjL: just made it up on the spot :)
[01:11] <LjL> i don't know really. i've never been to keen on making the guidelines bloated - i can reassure PriceChild on that - and it can be difficult to draw a line between what should be in the guidelines and what should be left out
[01:12] <nalioth> there is no way at all to put everything that a troll would bring up into the guidelines
[01:12] <jdong> LjL: It's not like it honestly matters -- those who are going to violate the policies probably aren't going to read them in the first place
[01:12] <LjL> indeed
[01:12] <jdong> LjL: at some point you just have to say "because we said so" and call it done :)
[01:12] <LjL> jdong, but once they come here, they *do* complain that the guidelines "don't say it"
[01:13] <LjL> jdong, but the guidelines don't say anywhere that we can "say so" on technical matters. sure, we're operators so we can ban and "say so", but
[01:14] <LjL> it's not even the first time i bring this up, it was discussed last time the guidelines were revised, i think
[01:14] <LjL> sure, as nalioth says, there's 1000 things that a troll can do and that we cannot guess in advance
[01:14] <LjL> but "not giving bad advice" is something i'm quite concerned on in particular
[01:14] <nalioth> we ban and if the bannee doesn't like it, they can go before the UTB
[01:16] <LjL> nalioth: but you see, in this case there was nothing to go to the UTB for. all he did *on #ubuntu* was: 1) state that "rm -rf <file>" is a good way to "always" delete a file  2) state that /usr is a place for "general applications"
[01:16] <LjL> that's bad advice, sure, but it's little things. hardly the point,
[01:16] <jdong> LjL: then add a provision that the IRC council discourages providing unsafe or unsupported procedures to resolve problems and may ask repeat offenders to cease providing advice
[01:17] <LjL> the point is more like: he came here and questions my/our authority to decide that *certain things* (no matter what they are *specifically*, so nothing to bring to the UTB) are unsupported
[01:17] <LjL> jdong: that's mostly what i'm thinking about.
[01:17] <LjL> though, "irc council"... just the damn operators.
[01:18] <LjL> i can hardly remember an instance when i disagreed with an operator on what was good advice
[01:19] <LjL> (or, i might have, but then either me or the other operator came to know better. that's the whole deal: being *prepared* to be told better. instead, some people just insist that they can *keep giving any kind of advice they like*)
[01:19] <jdong> LjL: yeah, extending that judgement right to all IRC operators is a good call
[01:46] <mneptok> LjL: that's why i offered to play The Bad Guy.
[01:47] <mneptok> LjL: i don't think it's a stretch to say "until the Ubuntu Technical Board can review the issue and state an official policy, we'll follow the recommendations of Canonical's support staff."
[01:47] <LjL> mneptok: it should work. they come in, ask "why can't i do that?" - "because it's bad advice" - "says who?" - "mneptok" - "who the hell is mneptok?" - "/me shows FriendlyTroll a photo of mneptok"
[01:47] <mneptok> which means i get universally despised, which is par for the course.
[01:48] <mneptok> and i think the correct response to "who says so?" is "Canonical senior support staff, until the TechBoard reviews the issue."
[01:48] <mneptok> then show them my picture so the conversation ends ;)
[01:48] <Pici>  Still talking about Gerro?
[01:49] <LjL> mneptok: well but you know most of the time we *don't* follow your recommendations simply because there haven't been any, so the "best judgment" thing comes up again. *after* the troll comes in here, we may ask you and you give your statement - but that's a [slightly] different thing
[01:49] <LjL> Pici, kind of, but it's in general. not the first time this issue comes up
[01:49]  * Pici reads scrollback
[01:50] <mneptok> LjL: *nod*
[01:51] <mneptok> LjL: let's be clear, i *don't want* to be any kisd of authority voice on technical matters. at the end of the day, it's not my place in the Ubuntu multiverse. but i'm happy to do my part to get annoying people to STFU and play by the rules. :)
[01:51] <mneptok> *kind
[01:55] <LjL> mneptok: indeed one of our issues is that we draw arguments with trolls in here that are *way* too long. while we were arguing, a few people were spamming #ubuntu - pici fixed that mostly, but we were all here arguing with the troll.
[01:55] <LjL> i'm the first to blame since i hardly ever keep my mouth shut after just saying "end of discussion, bye"
[01:55] <mneptok> yeah, the time suck is unacceptable
[01:56] <LjL> but if we need to have "appeals", which we do, we should find a way to force ourselves, me included, to make them reasonably short
[01:56] <LjL> and avoid starting to argue in circles with trolls
[01:56] <LjL> "caught ya" statements in the guidelines may help imho
[01:57] <Pici> I think 1) An IRC Council meeting is needed 2) A careful look and possible rewrite of some of the IRC Guidelines 3) There is no 3
[01:57] <LjL> (now, mind, "arguing with trolls" is different from actually discussing issues, like we're doing now - even though it spawned from arguing with a troll)
[01:58] <LjL> Pici, 1) is needed, and i half-heartely advocate 2)... but anyway you know, meetings are always fast, they have to be, and things can't really be discussed in much detail
[01:58] <LjL> so i really don't mind discussing them a little beforehand
[01:58] <ubotu> heguru called the ops in #ubuntu (SS[5uper5pam])
[01:59] <LjL> and then once in a while we get the poets
[02:00] <nalioth> ya'll can pull that ( mschi serial spammer )
[02:01] <LjL> nalioth: pull them ban as it's a K-ban?
[02:01] <LjL> s/them/the/
[02:01] <nalioth> LjL: yep
[02:30] <superm1> i forget, how do you teach ubotu something new?
[02:30] <nalioth> superm1: ubotu: foo is bar
[02:31] <superm1> nalioth, ah thanks
[02:31] <ubotu> In ubotu, superm1 said: mythtv-mysql is Having issues with 'access denied for user 'mythtv'@'localhost' (using password: YES), please see: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3691155&postcount=4
[02:31] <Madpilot> !mythtv
[02:31] <ubotu> MythTV is a TV framework for Linux - Instructions for using with Ubuntu at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MythTV
[02:32] <superm1> this one comes up often enough that i'd like to have its own quickie :)
[02:32] <Madpilot> superm1, add a link - or content - to the MythTV wiki page ^^^
[02:32] <Madpilot> fair enough. one sec
[02:33] <Madpilot> ubot3, mythtv-mysql is <reply>Having issues with 'access denied for user 'mythtv'@'localhost' (using password: YES), please see: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3691155&postcount=4
[02:33] <ubot3> In #ubuntu-ops, Madpilot said: ubot3, mythtv-mysql is <reply>Having issues with 'access denied for user 'mythtv'@'localhost' (using password: YES), please see: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3691155&postcount=4
[02:33] <Madpilot> %whoami
[02:33] <ubotu> Madpilot
[02:33] <Madpilot> stupid bots
[02:33] <Madpilot> ubotu, mythtv-mysql is <reply>Having issues with 'access denied for user 'mythtv'@'localhost' (using password: YES), please see: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3691155&postcount=4
[02:33] <ubotu> I'll remember that, Madpilot
[02:33] <Madpilot> there
[02:33] <Madpilot> !mythtv-mysql
[02:33] <ubotu> Having issues with 'access denied for user 'mythtv'@'localhost' (using password: YES), please see: http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=3691155&postcount=4
[02:33] <Madpilot> superm1, ^^
[02:33] <superm1> sweet thanks 
[02:38] <LjL> nalioth, mneptok, jdong, whoever followed the garro thing, i've translated parts of the guidelines for #ubuntu-it at nalioth: http://www.novarata.net/wiki/index.php?title=Italian_Guidelines - i think they're an interesting starting point for debate (read the introduction as for why) - and also, they're not quite as bad as i make them look, hey, it's a "starting point for debate" ;)
[02:39] <LjL> not debate *now* though for what i'm concerned, as i'm way too tired :P
[02:48] <ubotu> bruenig called the ops in #ubuntu ()
[02:48] <nalioth> so he did
[02:51] <tonyyarusso> How do I specify scripts to autorun in irssi again?  Is it a config thing, or just putting them in autorun/ ?
[02:54] <nalioth> tonyyarusso: put 'em in ~/.irssi/scripts/autorun  (symlinks work, too)
[02:54] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: ok
[02:54] <nalioth> tonyyarusso: i have some questions
[02:54] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: shoot
[02:54] <nalioth> why is it that when i add your feisty pps repo, kompozer-dev is there, but not kompozer ?
[02:55] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: errrr, good question
[02:55]  * tonyyarusso looks
[02:55] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: btw, it's actually in feisty-backports now, which would be the better choice
[02:56] <nalioth> backports smackports
[02:57] <tonyyarusso> oh!
[02:57] <nalioth> if i'm gonna do that, i might as well install gutsy
[02:57] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: Because PPA doesn't support PPC.
[02:57] <tonyyarusso> but -dev is arch:all
[02:57] <nalioth> tonyyarusso: ok, then how is kompozer-dev available to me?
[02:57] <tonyyarusso> ^^
[02:57] <nalioth> ah
[02:57] <nalioth> tonyyarusso: i think you can do better than that
[02:58] <nalioth> you have 0 excuse not to support the 3 major arches
[02:58] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: well, I'd have to set up my own repo for that.  It's not possible in the PPA system.
[02:58] <nalioth> ok, and? 
[02:58] <tonyyarusso> That's part of why backports is better, b/c they support the various Ubuntu ports.
[02:58]  * nalioth doesn't like being the red-headed-stepchild cuz he uses ppc
[02:59] <tonyyarusso> I know - I complained, but I don't control xen development.
[02:59] <tonyyarusso> (which is what they use)
[03:36] <ubotu> d4rkmonkey called the ops in #ubuntu ()
[03:37] <nalioth> tonyyarusso: you seem to have missed one
[03:37] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: arooo?
[03:38] <nalioth>   /lastlog the kline
[03:38] <tonyyarusso> I don't understand
[03:39] <nalioth> there were two trolls on the same IP
[03:39] <nalioth> you removed the active one
[03:39] <nalioth> the kline got both of them
[03:40] <no0tic> only a thing about what LjL said about italian guidelines: the first link are the _new_ ones after proposals, the second is only a draft
[03:41] <tonyyarusso> nalioth: indeed - although my logs don't have any entries for Mickael speaking
[03:42] <nalioth> and clones.pl doens't work with the massive numbers in #ubuntu   :(
[03:43] <ubotu> bruenig called the ops in #ubuntu ()
[03:44] <Madpilot> it's been a good night for paste-spam, hasn't it?
[03:44] <tonyyarusso> mmhmm
[04:05] <nalioth> Madpilot: talking to ghosts?
[04:05] <Madpilot> I just removed ubot3 from #ubuntu
[04:06] <Madpilot> confusing the tab-complete, it was
[05:47] <ompaul> mneptok, ?
[06:56] <ompaul> Hobbsee, happy morning
[06:56] <Hobbsee> hiya ompaul 
[07:21] <Tm_T> hi kids
[07:22] <Tm_T> Myrtti <3
[07:28] <Myrtti> hullo
[07:29]  * Tm_T is sick tired of being sick
[07:29] <Tm_T> s/sick/sicko/g ?
[07:30] <Tm_K> :-P
[07:30] <Myrtti> pft
[07:30] <Tm_K> pft?
[07:30] <Myrtti> /me fiddles around with her 770
[07:31] <Tm_K> just dont fiddle about me
[07:31] <Myrtti> this and my mobile phone are about the only ways to use inerhweb at where I'm sleeping
[07:32] <Tm_K> heh
[07:32] <Tm_K> sladen <3
[07:32] <Myrtti> and who just showed up ;-)
[07:33] <Myrtti> sladen: in the future you may use my 770and the gprs of it freely ;-)
[07:33] <Myrtti> i've got package plan nowadays \o/
[07:34] <Tm_K> :)
[07:34] <Myrtti> 315481kb
[07:34] <Tm_K> I just hope I get that OpenMoko thing one day
[07:35] <Tm_K> sorta hate this iPaq of being so crippled
[07:35] <Tm_K> powerful hardware, sucky OS
[07:35] <Myrtti> thats the amount of data i've transferred over 3g in a week
[07:35] <Tm_K> heh
[07:36] <Tm_K> hey, I did transfer several gigs over gprs at one point
[07:36] <Myrtti> including java, updates, fresh new thunderbird etc
[07:37] <Tm_K> I need new web browser for my WM5
[07:38] <Myrtti> It's my internet connection at my mums where I keep my office these days
[07:38] <Tm_K> :)
[07:38] <Myrtti> but anyways, im happy
[07:38] <Tm_K> I have lived with only gprs several times
[07:38] <Tm_K> gprs is ok, bit laggy with ssh but ok
[07:41] <Myrtti> [09:39] ��� Irssi: Starting query in freenode with jllj
[07:41] <Myrtti> [09:39] <jllj> hi you are famous.  i tried to read about you on wikipedia but it was in finnish.
[07:41] <Myrtti> hahaha
[07:43] <Tm_K> =)
[07:44] <Tm_K> I'm somewhat famous too I've heard
[07:47] <Myrtti> theyre teasing me at -offtopic
[07:47] <Myrtti> hmph
[07:48] <Tm_K> maybe I should show them something?
[07:48] <Myrtti> nääh
[07:49] <Tm_K> my face?
[07:54] <Tm_K> hi ompaul
[07:56] <ompaul> hi Tm_K thought you were on a holiday of sorts
[07:56] <Tm_K> I am
[07:57] <ompaul> Tm_K, ;-) 
[08:00] <Tm_K> ompaul: you know, there's no better way spending your time than chatting with friends :))
[08:00] <ompaul> Tm_K, true
[08:00] <ompaul> well we could write for our friends and others, code, blogs, stuff 
[08:03] <Tm_K> yup
[08:03] <Tm_K> or, have time with family if you have one near you :)
[08:05] <ompaul> all more fun
[08:06] <ompaul> I tend to blur the lines between RL and online - I meet many of the people I know online locally
[08:06] <ompaul> in fact we have our lug agm today
[08:10] <Hobbsee> Tm_K: heh.  that's what i think :)
[08:10] <Hobbsee> which makes it hard for me to take a holiday.
[08:10] <Tm_K> :)
[08:10] <Tm_K> ツ
[08:13]  * Tm_K is listening "Ylen klassinen"
[08:15] <ompaul> Tm_K, not in my knowledge base for want of a phrase
[08:15]  * ompaul wonders if some loon made a TM of that phrase
[08:15]  * ompaul goes to search the interweb
[08:15] <Tm_K> :p
[08:16] <Tm_K> ompaul: what I meant by saying that, I'm relaxing with classical music
[08:17] <ompaul> Tm_K, ahh, okay, don't know that one still, mozart or motorhead only the pop ones ;-)
[08:18]  * ompaul goes to install a little audio fun into his head
[08:18] <Tm_K> heh, "Ylen Klassinen" is radio station sending only classical music
[08:18] <ompaul> ahh ha
[08:18] <Tm_K> YLE is our BBC
[08:20] <ompaul> gotcha, right now the boomtown rats - banana republic - a reference to my country in the 80s it has changed a little but some of the sentiments still stand ;-)
[10:31] <Hobbsee> anyone recognise [21:31] [Whois] Blake__ is n=Blake@82-45-232-172.cable.ubr03.hari.blueyonder.co.uk (U-Blake-PC\Blake) ?
[10:44] <brain> can someone unban me plz?
[10:46] <elkbuntu> brain, why were you banned?
[10:46] <brain> for mentioning waffles
[10:47] <brain> i was told it was 24 hr
[10:47] <brain> its been 36
[10:47] <brain> madpilot banned me
[10:48] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-motu, persia said: ubotu: packaging is The packaging guide is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide - See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/New for information on getting a package integrated into Ubuntu - Other developer resources are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResources - See also !backports
[10:58] <brain> CAN SOMEONE PLEASE UNBAN ME
[10:59] <brain> or at least reccomend a mulitple monitor solution to ubuntu 7.10 amd64
[10:59] <elkbuntu> brain, im investigating. shouting will only make us think you're not suitible to go back
[10:59] <elkbuntu> brain, and besides, my logs show that you were not banned for mentioning waffles. you were banned for asking silly questions such as 'how do i hack the DOD in ubuntu?'
[10:59] <Gary> and your convo in -offtopic looks really close to the edge...
[11:00] <elkbuntu> changing your nick doesnt help you any
[11:00] <hyaBUSA> it was a joke man
[11:00] <hyaBUSA> i was loosening the tension 
[11:01] <hyaBUSA> and i diddnt know u were investigating sorry
[11:01] <hyaBUSA> i did it in another channel
[11:01] <hyaBUSA> i'm still messin with my settings of old profile
[11:03] <elkbuntu> hyaBUSA, try to avoid repeating yourself as often as you do. it makes people switch off to you and not help you. also, asking how to hack things is stupid and will usually attract a ban. lastly, keep on one topic, or people wont know what you want and wont bother trying to figure you out.
[11:03] <hyaBUSA> sorry man im new to this irc community
[11:05] <elkbuntu> one other thing. you were only banned 28 hours ago. not 36. lying is frowned on. however you're back in on *probation*. if you behave in #ubuntu as you are behaving in #ubuntu-offtopic, you will be removed again for a longer time.
[11:05] <hyaBUSA> thanks elk
[11:06] <elkbuntu> theres no need for you to be in this channel any longer
[11:07] <hyaBUSA> k
[11:16] <ubotu> s|k called the ops in #xubuntu ()
[13:11] <ubotu> astro76 called the ops in #ubuntu ()
[13:12] <Tm_K> )(
[15:55] <sladen> Myrtti: wooo, free GPRS
[15:57] <Myrtti> "free"
[15:57] <Myrtti> 15e per month
[15:58] <Myrtti> 512kbit/s
[16:59] <jussi01> Myrtti: you around? 
[17:00] <Myrtti> yeah
[17:00] <mjr> oh yeah, that reminded me I have to change my current per-year tie-in gprs deal to a per-month
[17:01] <jussi01> Myrtti: sorry to bother you, I just have a quick favour to ask if you would...
[17:01] <Myrtti> okey
[17:02] <jussi01> Myrtti: I need some information - it can be in finish, but I can find it. I need to have some instuctions for searching on my digibox for the tv channels... I cant seem to find it on dna's website.. :(
[17:02] <jussi01> s/can/cant
[17:02] <jussi01> If you have time, would you mind having a quick look?
[17:03] <Myrtti> computer dvb card?
[17:03] <jussi01> Myrtti: nope, normal digibox..
[17:03] <Myrtti> oh
[17:05] <jussi01> I just need to know which frequencys to search etc
[17:05] <Myrtti> oh
[17:10] <Myrtti> jussi01: where are you at?
[17:10] <jussi01> Myrtti: Oulu
[17:11] <Myrtti> http://www.oulunpuhelin.fi/file.php?220
[17:11] <jussi01> Myrtti: you rock!! Thanks a million!
[17:52] <ubotu> bur[n]er called the ops in #ubuntu ()
[20:35] <ubotu> In #ubuntu, bruenig said: !no, aptitude is aptitude is another terminal-based front-end to APT. Like apt-get, it can install/remove packages and their dependencies. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptitudeSurvivalGuide
[20:38] <LjL> !aptitude
[20:38] <ubotu> aptitude is another terminal-based front-end to APT, like apt-get. However, aptitude can remember the dependencies installed with a package and remove them if you uninstall. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptitudeSurvivalGuide
[20:39] <LjL> !no aptitude is another terminal-based front-end to APT. Like other APT front-ends, it can install/remove packages and their dependencies (on Dapper and earlier, however, only aptitude keeps track of unused dependencies). See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AptitudeSurvivalGuide
[20:39] <ubotu> I'll remember that LjL
[21:10] <Pici> I miss the poetry.
[21:10] <MenZa> Pici, how do you feel about a !herald for it?
[21:10] <MenZa> (!m$)
[21:11] <Pici> perhaps..
[21:11] <Pici> cello_rasp: How can we help you today?
[21:11] <PriceChild> He's banned... I don't know why and am busy sorry.
[21:11] <cello_rasp> I was hoping you could tell me why I am banned from #ubuntu
[21:11] <Pici> cello_rasp: let me take a look at the logs, hold on.
[21:14] <jrib> cello_rasp: seems like you persisted with offtopic comments in #ubuntu after being warned
[21:15] <PriceChild> ahhh now i see the ban
[21:15] <cello_rasp> I was warned?
[21:15] <PriceChild> uu and it was me
[21:16] <PriceChild> cello_rasp, yes you were warned with a /remove
[21:16] <PriceChild> however you continued with your cocky comebacks and so earned a ban
[21:17] <cello_rasp> I see. When was this  according to the log
[21:17] <PriceChild> And the !offtopic factoid had been called a couple of times.
[21:17] <PriceChild> 	Oct 26 2007 22:40:04
[21:17] <PriceChild> (UTC)
[21:17] <PriceChild> cello_rasp, what's #ubuntu for?
[21:18] <PriceChild> *notices you called someone a sophisticated pervert also*
[21:18] <cello_rasp> Sorry but I didn't translate any of that as a warning
[21:18] <PriceChild> You were removed with t he message "/msg ubotu offtopic".... and didn't take that as a warning?1
[21:19] <PriceChild> I can slightly understand you missing the !offtopic's and responses from ubotu in channel a couple of times....
[21:19] <PriceChild> but you were removed before the final remove/ban
[21:19] <cello_rasp> I must have missed that - there was a lot going on. Sorry.
[21:20] <LjL> you haven't missed being kicked
[21:20] <PriceChild> I don't believe you.
[21:20] <PriceChild> You didn't have an autorejoin... you had to manually /join.
[21:20] <LjL> your following statement was clearly relating to the kick
[21:20] <PriceChild> cello_rasp, the ban will not be lifted at this time. I suggest you "/msg ubotu guidelines" and read all it has to say.
[21:21] <LjL> i'll add /msg ubotu etiquette
[21:21] <PriceChild> LjL, but etiquette links to guidelines?
[21:22] <cello_rasp> From that I gather that bans are permanent unless specifically removed
[21:22] <LjL> it does, among other things, but not vice versa
[21:22] <PriceChild> cello_rasp, most are yes.
[21:22] <PriceChild> cello_rasp, I haven't seen a change in attitude from you and so don't believe it in anyone's best interest to lift the ban at this time.
[21:23] <cello_rasp> nah, it's easier just to grab a different nick and ip. see ya
[21:23] <PriceChild> Good luck.
[21:23] <LjL> cello_rasp: with that statement, please consider your ban permanent
[21:24] <PriceChild> lets just ban bethere.co.uk.... oh wait :P
[21:24] <TheSheep> *.uk :P
[21:24] <LjL> PriceChild: nah, you wouldn't get banned
[21:24] <jdong> PriceChild: that'd get rid of moniker42 too ;-)
[21:24] <PriceChild> LjL, it would
[21:24] <LjL> PriceChild: you'd only get banned if your IP were banned
[21:24] <PriceChild> LjL, ohhhh yeah sorry :)
[21:25] <Pici> Or if you couldnt auth
[21:26] <PriceChild> be host a dynamic and static service... the static one at no extra charge to the adsl2+ customers... judging by hostmask I'm reasonably sure he's on dynamic :/
[21:26] <LjL> then he'll feel proud that he's fooled the ops, oh well.
[21:27] <PriceChild> surprisingly i never tested it to see how often leases can change
[21:28] <Pici> Why is it when you !foo | user, they dont read it and try to !foo | user themselves?
[21:28] <Pici> I will never understand that.
[21:28] <Gary> that cello fellow seemed nice
[21:29] <TheSheep> users never read any text that looks automatically generated -- that's one of the laws of computer ui
[21:29] <LjL> Pici: because the same people who tell others to RTFM don't even dream to read the bot's fine manual - or to activate their neurons
[21:30] <LjL> Gary: he lied through his teeth when he said he didn't notice being kicked.
[21:30] <Gary> LjL, they always do
[21:30] <PriceChild> cello seems memorable to me
[21:30] <PriceChild> Gary, i wouldn't say t hat
[21:31] <PriceChild> forums person perhaps..
[21:31] <PriceChild> LjL, "tod" is slang for something....
[21:32] <PriceChild> and judging by the preceeding part of his nickname I think he thinks he knows what he's doing.
[21:32]  * Pici watches HairyHobo
[21:33] <PriceChild> Right i'm off for the evening.
[21:33] <LjL> what the - i have 75 seconds lag
[21:33] <PriceChild> commented cello's ban
[21:34] <PriceChild> * Pancakes (n=Pancakes@about/cooking/breakfast/Pancakes)
[21:34] <PriceChild> :)
[21:34] <LjL> i just saw like 50 lines come in at a time in #ubuntu :)
[21:34] <LjL> haha
[21:34] <PriceChild> LjL, yeah its REALLY sped up just now
[21:35] <LjL> maybe but my connection was also on vacation for sure
[21:36] <PriceChild> * wraund (n=sacater@ubuntu/member/colchester-lug.sacater) has joined #ubuntu
[21:36] <PriceChild> sneaky cloak....
[21:36] <PriceChild> I wonder who he knows ;)
[21:36]  * Gary giggles
[21:36] <PriceChild> Gary, :)
[21:36] <LjL> PriceChild: i get neither the "tod" nor what you mean with the preceeding part of his nickname anyway
[21:38] <LjL> erm now i shouldn't be lagged anymore though, it's just going at like 3 messages per second
[21:40] <Gary> it's so hard to keep up with
[21:40] <PriceChild> Gary, stay there a while and you'll get used to it
[21:40] <PriceChild> I call troll on twoshadetod
[21:41] <PriceChild> hmm urbandictionary doesn't have the meaning of tod i was thinking
[21:48] <LjL> i think maybe both hairyhobo and darkdrake want a ban
[21:51] <Pici> I agree.
[21:53] <AmericaIsDumb> Wow, this is a large channel.
[21:53] <LjL> AmericaIsDumb: 1) please change your nickname, it's offensive, 2) please don't nickspam, #ubuntu is busy enough, 3) we really don't care about what happens in *other* channels, and even if we do, please tell us in *here*, it's offtopic in #ubuntu
[21:54] <LjL> !etiquette
[21:54] <ubotu> Unsure how you should behave on this channel? See !AskTheBot, !CoC, !Guidelines, !Offtopic, !Language, !Attitude, !Repeat, !Enter, !Paste, !NickSpam - and most importantly, use common sense :-)
[21:54] <LjL> PCPolice, i strongly suggest that you read all the above factoids carefully (in PMs with the bot)
[21:55] <PriceChild> Why is he here? :/
[21:55] <PriceChild> *sees no banforward*
[21:55] <LjL> PriceChild: i invited.
[21:55] <PriceChild> k
[21:55] <PriceChild> *notices the +io*
[21:55] <PriceChild> *+-o
[21:55] <LjL> * / sqr :P
[21:55] <PCPolice> Okay, I will try to conform to the politically correct rules.
[21:55] <LjL> thank you.
[21:58] <LjL> PCPolice: i just wanted to make sure you understood what the rules were, feel free to wander off this channel now
[21:58] <PriceChild> I'm off out.
[21:58] <Gary> PCPolice, it's not so much being all PC and all, but trying to keep a channel of 1300 plus working effectively
[22:07] <LjL> PCPolice, mine above was an invitation to leave, as we'd like to keep this channel for extemporanous use
[22:12] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-motu, pwnguin said: ubotu: bitesize is https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=bitesize
[22:14] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-motu, nxvl said: ubotu: bitesize is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=bitesize
[22:17] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-motu, pwnguin said: ubotu: bitesize is Bugs tagged trivially easy to fix: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=bitesize
[22:18] <Pici> !bitesize is <reply> Bugs tagged trivially easy to fix can be found here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=bitesize
[22:18] <ubotu> I'll remember that, Pici
[23:00] <Pici> !register
[23:00] <ubotu> Information about registering your Freenode nick is at http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#contents-userregistration
[23:01] <jdong> no, register is a crappy british IT news site that seems to like publishing flamebait about Ubuntu and then making it seem funny by punning every other word and then punning the puns.
[23:02] <jdong> :)
[23:05] <LjL> jdong: surely, launchpad is a "user forum", and "A number of users have complained this *week* about the OS (7.04/7.10)" doesn't even remotely make one suspect there's just a foolish craze, given that 7.04 has been out for months
[23:06] <jdong> lol
[23:06] <jdong> now if we can get this LP-forum integration thing to work....
[23:09] <LjL> jdong: what i think i'm reading in the very high noise to content ratio, however, is that perhaps ubuntu doesn't even try to avoid using the disk when the disk is powered off and disk usage may be avoided or postponed, while other systems may do
[23:09] <LjL> i don't really know if this is true - again, very high noise ratio - but this would be a real argument against ubuntu, rather than most of what i read, which sounds like utter nonsense
[23:10] <jdong> LjL: that's only partially true though; it's a big deal that noatime/relatime isn't set because laptop-mode cannot defer atime updating
[23:10] <jdong> LjL: IMO it *is* a Ubuntu problem that we do hdparm -B 1 on laptop-mode -- NO other distro defaults this way
[23:10] <jdong> and 90% of drives take -B 1 to mean suicidally enforce idle time
[23:10] <jdong> it concerns me that developers are insisting it is not their fault and not changing/disabling the hdparm command
[23:11] <LjL> maybe that, but lots of people seems to be complaining even though they've *not* set laptop mode
[23:11] <jdong> LjL: if they have not set laptop-mode, then the system is using whatever defaults the BIOS or last thing that touched the setting have set
[23:11] <jdong> LjL: I'm pretty sure Windows explicitly sets a APM value regardless of system default
[23:11] <jdong> which might be where we are going wrong
[23:12] <LjL> jdong: ok but i've read people complaining not so much that the drive is turned off, but rather that it *turns on again immediately* after being turned off
[23:12] <LjL> which rather suggests that perhaps the system should sometimes say "oh wait, the drive is off, so i'll leave it alone and defer writing"
[23:12] <jdong> LjL: it would be nice to do a blocktrack as to why the drive is turning back on -- read or write
[23:13] <jdong> LjL: on my system I've set pdflush to 15 seconds, but it doesn't help with read requests waking the drive up
[23:13] <jdong> but noatime should be enabled by default
[23:13] <jdong> or relatime
[23:18] <LjL> jdong: if one goes according to http://kerneltrap.org/node/14148 , then one would say it definitely should
[23:19] <jdong> LjL: gutsy kernel does relatime already... I use it here to great benefit
[23:20] <jdong> I don't understand why Ubuntu is so averse to changing filesystem defaults.
[23:20] <LjL> oh torvalds always has such pearls... starts saying that fsync() is broken in ext3, and end ups saying he "detests logging filesystems"
[23:20] <nalioth> overlords kittens
[23:20] <jdong> well, it is broken on all journaling filesystems under Linux.
[23:20] <LjL> jdong: you mean it does but not by default?
[23:21] <jdong> LjL: right, you can mount with relatime and it will only update atime on disk with next write or unmount
[23:21] <jdong> LjL: basically as fast as noatime without the mutt-related side effects
[23:21] <jdong> LjL: but I can't think of a single Linux journaled FS that doesn't treat fsync($file) as the same as sync($blockdev)
[23:22] <jdong> so Linus actually has a point this time
[23:22] <LjL> jdong: well is it an intrinsic problem with journalling?
[23:22] <LjL> (and is it enough of a reason to "detest logging filesystems"?)
[23:22] <jdong> LjL: in a way, yes, you cannot request one operation to be committed to disk without flushing all the transactions before it
[23:22] <jdong> though it's probably not enough to detest logging fs'es per se.
[23:23] <jdong> unless you happen to do work that fsync's a lot, then you basically lose all the advantages of a write cache
[23:23] <jdong> LjL: I know a *lot* of FS performance nuts that put a LD_PRELOAD in the environment that zaps out fsync()
[23:24] <LjL> jdong: but then that's almost *asking* for losing those benefits... if i tell my filesystem to sync every 10 seconds, i think it's because i *mean* it, no? if i have some specialized data that really really benefit from being written ASAP, i suppose i'd use a separate partition/drive for them, as they'd be special-purpose stuff
[23:24] <LjL> that vim does fsync(), uhm... i think i'd tend to call that vim's fault
[23:25] <ompaul> jdong, what is broken?
[23:25] <jdong> ompaul: fsync() on journaled filesystems
[23:25] <jdong> ompaul: in that it almost always causes everything in the write cache to be flushed
[23:25] <jdong> LjL: vim's my major annoyance
[23:25] <jdong> LjL: especially when I pdflush to 30 seconds, sometimes a vim :wq is enough to cause a 10-second sync hang
[23:26] <jdong> LjL: it's not optimal to disable fsync at the system level, but sometimes I'm greedy for performance :)
[23:27] <ompaul> jdong, funny that given that: The fsync() function can be used by an application to indicate that all data for the open file description named by fildes is to be transferred to the storage device associated with the file described by fildes in an implementation-dependent manner. source: http://www.opengroup.org/pubs/online/7908799/xsh/fsync.html  - so I would say expected behaviour, perhaps a bad call 
[23:28] <jdong> ompaul: well, it's not expected behavior... when I call fsync on a 1K textfile, I expect that to be synced to the disk. I don't expect the underlying FS to sync 300MB of unrelated data from the write cache
[23:29] <LjL> jdong: what about reldiratime by the way? does it exist, does relatime cover that?
[23:29] <jdong> in most of the Linux journaled FS'es other than JFS/XFS, fsync is implemented by calling sync on the disk
[23:29] <jdong> LjL: good question, I don't know :)
[23:29] <LjL> jdong: how do those two implement it?
[23:30] <jdong> LjL: they are not ordered journals
[23:30] <jdong> LjL: which have certain data corruption risks associated with it
[23:30] <LjL> jdong: if you don't put ext3 in ordered more, does it still just call sync()?
[23:31] <jdong> LjL: I'm unsure
[23:32] <mjr> I don't see how that'd make a difference; it's not about ordering the journal, but data writes with the metadata journal
[23:36] <ompaul> jdong, everything that is in fildes needs to be written, so something else is wrong, like there should be no command to flush the rest - there is there - it has "too much power" so to speak - I have been looking for docs to explain it better than I can but my read of it is that "fildes" is to be written - no excuses and the file system just obeys the call, it is like telling the fs that the machine is being shutdown - the queue says "Oi clear
[23:36] <ompaul>  me first first"
[23:37] <ompaul> s/there is there/ There is a command to do that/]
[23:37] <jdong> ompaul: well, sync() can be used to sync everything, but fsync() should only sync data related to filedes
[23:37] <jdong> ompaul: the problem is that ordered journaling FS'es cannot separate the data belonging to one file from another, so to do a fsync it must sync the entire device
[23:37] <ompaul> jdong, and where do you think all the other files "are"
[23:38] <ompaul> jdong, yes
[23:38] <ompaul> the problem is that this call is not the one that should be used, but it is
[23:38] <ompaul> jdong, bug in protocol more than program
[23:39] <ompaul> jdong, yet again I come back from the ilug agm and they have given me a post what can I say - -- shall I ever escape? ;-)
[23:39] <jdong> ompaul: hehe
[23:40] <ompaul> jdong, the thing is we often see protocols that are broken, in this case to me it looks like the protocol is broken, it needs to cache the data with more meta data, but it does not
[23:45] <ompaul> jdong, much more scary is this: http://www.ripe.net/news/community-statement.html
[23:45] <LjL> jdong: i'm still reading http://kerneltrap.org/node/14148 , it seems to be implying though that ubuntu *is* mounting noatime by default...?
[23:45] <ompaul> jdong, the end of the interweb
[23:46] <ompaul> LjL, that appears only to be the case for CDs as it should be
[23:47] <ompaul> LjL, check /etc/fstab
[23:47] <LjL> ompaul: well they talk about it like something that only ubuntu had the "braveness" to do and other distributions are scared of...
[23:47] <ompaul> LjL, atime is there
[23:47] <LjL> ompaul, my own /etc/fstab doesn't mean very much i suspect, as it's from dapper :)
[23:47] <ompaul> LjL, this is feisty
[23:48] <LjL> ompaul: "atime is there" you mean that nothing is there (since atime would be silently there by default)? or, instead, you mean that *no*atime is default, but then that's overridden by /etc/fstab?
[23:48] <Tm_T> ompaul: you needed me for something?
[23:49] <ompaul> Tm_T, na, that was me just throwing away comments last time I was online - however many hours ago that was
[23:49] <Tm_T> I see
[23:49] <Tm_T> heh, roger that
[23:50] <ompaul> Tm_T, unless you got some other insight to that site 
[23:50] <Tm_T> not atm