[00:35] <jrib> ljl: goatsextroll is PCPolice, Americaisdumb...
[00:35] <LjL> jrib: thanks
[00:36] <LjL> wasn't that comcast?
[00:36] <LjL> guess he was last time
[00:36] <Sorry> :(
[00:36] <Sorry> My nickname was a reference to a meme popular in the computer programming culture.
[00:36] <Sorry> Why did LjL so quickly ban me?
[00:37] <Sorry> LjL: Answer.
[00:37] <jdong> Sorry: because it was quite inappropriate?
[00:37] <LjL> Sorry: no.
[00:37] <jdong> and we know what reference you were making.
[00:37] <Sorry> Okay.
[00:37] <LjL> actually, mr sorry
[00:37] <Sorry> :\
[00:38] <jdong> whee
[00:45] <LjL> !forget qvm86
[00:45] <ubotu> I'll forget that, LjL
[00:46] <LjL> !kqemu =~ s/ - see also !qvm86//
[00:46] <ubotu> I'll remember that LjL
[00:46] <LjL> !virtualizers =~ s/or !qvm86//
[00:46] <ubotu> I'll remember that LjL
[00:46] <LjL> qvm86 has been deprecated by its author
[01:12] <nixternal> rob nalioth #kde is under a ctcp attack
[01:13] <Pici> !staff | ^
[01:13] <ubotu> ^: Hey nalioth, jenda, rob, SportChick, seanw, BearPerson or ompaul! I could use a bit of your time :)
[01:13] <nixternal> ubuntuser
[01:13] <nixternal> ubuntuser [i=ubuntu@gateway/tor/x-d3c3eced43807f12] requested CTCP PING from #kde: :+++ATH0
[01:14] <Pici> nixternal: if its still happening, you could find a staff member in #freenode probably/.
[01:14] <nixternal> we kicked him
[01:14] <Pici> ah
[01:17] <jdong> nixternal: do people honestly think +++ATH0 work nowadays? XD
[01:17] <nixternal> who knows...and go figure the name as well, and tor....
[01:17]  * LjL has quit IRC (Ping timeout)
[01:17] <jdong> if so, please upgrade your modem, it's 20 years old :)
[01:17] <nixternal> hahahaha
[01:17] <nixternal> I didn't even catch that
[01:18] <LjL> jdong: hey, my 33.6k modem is the only thing that can stay connected to my VoIP line for more than 2 minutes!
[01:18] <jdong> LjL: I bet it has an escape guard though
[01:18] <LjL> jdong: uhm, no, it disconnects on +++ATH.
[01:18] <jdong> LjL: seriously?? what model is it?
[01:19] <LjL> how would i know, it's buried in my server's dirty PCI slots since at least 5 years :P
[01:19] <jdong> definitely all the V.90 modems wait 3 seconds after +++ before escaping
[01:19] <jdong> V.34.... I'd expect the more "recent" ones to do the same
[01:19] <LjL> jdong, 1997
[01:20] <jdong> LjL: hmm maybe that was before they dial-guarded them
[01:20] <LjL> oh wait, did i just say "PCI slot"? i was lying. ISA slot.
[01:20] <Pici> EISA
[01:21] <LjL> whatever, not PCI anyway since it's not listed in lspci
[01:23] <jdong> wow
[01:23] <jdong> ok that's old :)
[01:23] <jdong> see above comment about upgrading :D
[01:23] <LjL> i don't think so
[01:24] <Pici> lsisa?
[01:24] <LjL> no, there's no lsisa :)
[01:27] <jdong> lol, lsisa :D
[01:32] <LjL> jdong: there's more serious stuff than a modem with a slight security problem in that server, anyway
[01:33] <LjL> ljlhead:/home/ljl# uname -r
[01:33] <LjL> 2.4.27-2-k6
[01:33] <jdong> hehehe
[01:35] <LjL> you know, i started rolling my own kernel on there because i had a couple of stuck bits in my RAM... badram was useful :)
[01:42] <LjL> xike in #ubuntu is going to try to edit the APT database manually because he's tried to roll his own kernel, and installing the package he created somehow failed, so now APT insists that the package must be reinstalled prior to removal, but he doesn't have the package anymore
[01:43] <Madpilot> that's a novel way to break his Ubuntu
[01:43] <LjL> yeah, but i'd rather give him a solution and avoid him editing the status file
[01:44] <LjL> dpkg --force-something?
[01:45] <nalioth> force breaks things
[01:45] <LjL> so does editing the status file
[01:45] <crdlb> isn't there a .old file?
[01:45] <LjL> crdlb: where? what?
[01:48] <crdlb> /var/lib/dpkg/status-old
[01:48] <jrib> wow, no victims
[01:49] <jrib> oh I missed the first one...
[01:49] <Madpilot> LjL already banforwarded all the victims
[01:49] <LjL> jrib: yeah. :)
[01:49] <LjL> crdlb: hm is it safe to overwrite status like that? anyway, even though he says he's sure the package has no leftovers, i wouldn't be so sure myself
[01:50] <LjL> isn't there just a reasonable way to make APT remove the package period?
[01:50] <crdlb> I have no idea
[01:51] <Madpilot> this is why I've never bothered learning to compile. seems like an awesome way to borrow trouble.
[01:51] <crdlb> heh
[01:51] <jrib> well you have to tell it to ignore the fact it needs to be reinstalled with some --force, there isn't really an alternative that I can see if you do not have the package
[01:52] <LjL> i'll just go with a --force-remove-reinstreq
[02:06] <LjL> [03:05:14] --> thegallier_ has joined this channel (n=root@71.167.167.182).
[02:06] <LjL> [03:05:14] --> Fade2Blac has joined this channel (n=MostKnow@71.15.152.40).
[02:06] <LjL> joined at the very same moment, both 71's, a root ident, hmm
[02:11] <LjL> [03:10:20] --> internet18 has joined this channel (n=internet@202.150.76.242).
[02:11] <LjL> [03:10:37] --> internet19 has joined this channel (n=internet@202.150.76.242).
[02:11] <LjL> two different realnames
[02:11] <LjL> that's also interesting
[02:12] <nalioth> LjL: these kiddy scripts do all that easily
[02:12] <LjL> nalioth: well the question is what should we expect, though. i can't just ban them
[02:13] <LjL> [03:11:53] --> internet24 has joined this channel (n=internet@202.150.76.242).
[02:13] <LjL> ah, no, there IS something weird here
[02:13] <nalioth> which channel?
[02:13] <LjL> #ubuntu
[02:13] <nalioth> they're staging
[02:13] <LjL> uh... but they hadn't done anything yet :P
[02:14] <nalioth> there's lots of them
[02:15] <LjL> nalioth: thegallier_ had actual clones?
[02:15] <nalioth> yes, they both had 4
[02:17] <nalioth> and clones.pl is useless in a channel as large as #ubuntu 
[02:19] <LjL> nalioth: i don't know how clones.pl works, but "some" clone detector should be useful enough
[02:19] <LjL> anyway, 207-172-70-51.c3-0.sbo-ubr2.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com also has three clones in #ubuntu
[02:19] <LjL> might be legitimate though, don't go with the axe :P
[02:19] <nalioth> LjL: it's a script for irssi
[02:20] <nalioth> it just shunts all the names back to me when used in high capacity channels
[02:20] <nalioth> no, i look first
[02:21]  * LjL is once again tempted to deploy a certain bot... but perhaps some other day :)
[02:21] <no0tic> :)
[02:36] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-ni, fitoria said: ubotu: where is igorgue?
[03:40] <ubotu> KurtKraut called the ops in #ubuntu ()
[03:40] <ubotu> Bassetts called the ops in #ubuntu ()
[03:42] <nalioth> klined
[04:12] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-motu, somerville32 said: !forget hobbsee
[04:13] <jdong> ha
[04:13] <Hobbsee> heh
[04:15]  * Jucato forgets...
[04:15] <Jucato> um.. who?
[04:30] <Madpilot> what?
[05:05] <ubotu> Evanlec called the ops in #ubuntu (Super5pam)
[05:06] <Madpilot> someone posting Nostradamus or some similar trash
[05:08] <ubotu> Nrrd called the ops in #ubuntu-offtopic (Super5pam)
[05:09] <Madpilot> same idiot, same strange crap
[05:09] <tonyyarusso> Know what would be nifty?  If when a nick was supplied, ubotu also listed the IP/hostmask here, so if it showed up multiple times, staff would have it handy when K-Lines were appropriate.
[05:10] <tonyyarusso> and with that, /me -> bed
[05:11] <Madpilot> later tonyyarusso 
[05:47] <ubotu> In ubotu, KevinO0oO said: This is an autoreply: I am currently not available. Please leave your message, and I will get back to you as soon as possible.
[05:48] <crdlb> haha
[06:04] <jdong> that's gold.
[09:34] <mjr> incidentally, I find the kick games at least on -offtopic in extremely poor taste and damaging the atmosphere of the channel
[09:35] <Gary> mjr, me too, it's terrible
[09:36]  * Gary hides (it was his fault... points..)
[09:38] <ompaul> mjr, see mailing list - he wanted it to happen, honest 
[09:38]  * ompaul points at Gary 
[09:38] <Gary> mjr, you must excuse my learned friends behaviour, it was most unbecoming a lady...
[09:39]  * ompaul chases Gary around all of irc with candy floss stuck to a toffee apple
[09:39] <Gary> see....
[09:42] <mjr> well, I know here in Finland we are lax about the _important_ things such as, you know, using the wrong words at times, but around here ops usually aren't for infantile games on public channels
[09:49] <ompaul> ahh you see you need to be from that little bit south of there
[09:49] <ompaul> ;-)
[10:09] <mjr> ...and then ompaul wantonly floods the channel
[10:09] <mjr> fuckin' ay
[10:09] <ompaul> mjr, killing an o4o conversation 
[10:09] <ompaul> diversion
[10:10] <ompaul> mjr, there are ways to move things along
[10:10] <ompaul> I could fight and mute but talk of oneko is a diversion
[10:11] <ompaul> as is cowsay
[10:20] <mjr> ...luckily it doesn't scream "it's okay to flood here, guys!"
[10:20] <mjr> oh wait, it does
[10:22] <mjr> also, the (apparent) ubotu !opabuse trigger is a shining beacon of op arrogance, especially considering such conduct by them
[10:23] <mjr> if you're arrogant, at least try to be worthy of it
[10:26]  * ompaul has a memory - a simple one - no one is perfect
[10:33] <Tm_T> ummm
[10:33] <Tm_T> I agree with mjr 
[10:42] <eth01> any op's active?
[10:43] <ompaul> ask away
[10:44] <eth01> apparently I'm banned from #ubuntu ... not sure as to why though, and yes, i have no idea ...
[10:44] <ompaul> back in a moment
[10:45] <ompaul> %btlogin
[10:45] <ubotu> An error has occurred and has been logged.
[10:45]  * ompaul looks
[10:45] <ompaul> eth01, let me see if I can find out why
[10:45] <eth01> ta
[10:52] <ompaul> eth01, please bear with me
[10:52] <ompaul> still looking for a record
[10:54] <ompaul> 1logs
[10:54] <ompaul> !logs
[10:54] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - Logs for LoCo channels are at http://logs.ubuntu-eu.org/freenode/
[11:03] <ompaul> eth01, so the reason you're nick was banned was that it had been used to troll and abuse the #ubuntu channel - I'll let you back in - please do /msg ubotu guidelines cheers
[11:03] <eth01> k, thanks.
[11:04] <ompaul> eth01, is there anything else we can help you with?
[11:05] <eth01> nope :)
[11:05] <eth01> thanks again.
[12:37]  * Hobbsee pokes gnome-running people
[12:48] <Tm_T> ummmm
[12:48] <Tm_T> is "Exploit" good nick?
[12:48] <Tm_T> no not something worth kicking but worth poking?
[12:51]  * popey pokes Hobbsee
[12:52] <Hobbsee> popey: any way i can set what happens when i middle click on a window title?
[12:52]  * Hobbsee wants middle click to shade and double click to maximise the window.
[12:52] <Hobbsee> it appears i cannot have this.
[12:53] <Hobbsee> and i cant seem to see it in the registry, either.
[12:53] <popey> i think you are correc
[12:53] <popey> i dont think that's an action that can be set
[12:53] <Hobbsee> *sigh*
[12:53] <Hobbsee> basic functionality, people.
[12:53]  * popey shrugs
[12:53]  * Hobbsee notes that most of the gnome devs only work with 2 windows, being a terminal and firefox.
[12:53] <popey> i have never felt the need to shade a window
[12:53] <Hobbsee> it has it's uses.  sometimes.
[12:54] <Tm_T> heh
[12:54] <Tm_T> and talking about major desktop environment, you cant think only "your need" ;)
[12:54] <Hobbsee> popey: the original question was about how to hide the damned drive entries from my desktop
[12:54] <Hobbsee> because desktop icons are EVIL!
[12:55] <Tm_T> agreed
[12:55] <Hobbsee> maybe slightly more so than systray icons.
[12:55]  * Hobbsee found the answer to that, when googling, then doing it thru the registry.
[12:55] <Tm_T> haha
[12:55] <Tm_T> Hobbsee: now you see why I wont touch GNOME
[12:55]  * popey has a desktop littered with icons
[12:56] <Hobbsee> Tm_T: i am in gnome at the moment, have been for most of the last couple of weeks
[12:56] <Tm_T> Hobbsee: I notice =)
[12:56] <Hobbsee> popey: i did, till i decided that i liked pretty pictures, and it annoys me that the icons dont all look the same size :)
[12:56] <Hobbsee> i think it's the preview thing
[12:56]  * Tm_T posing: http://www.tm-travolta.net/shots/current.png
[12:57]  * Hobbsee uses her desktop to download crap - and then remove it all in one hit, after having done the activity that required the crap.
[12:57] <Tm_T> I know, its ugly, I dont care, it works <3
[12:57] <elkbuntu> Hobbsee, you can hide the drive trays though gconf-editor. not sure if there's a newer, easier way or not
[12:58] <Tm_T> drive trays?!
[12:58] <elkbuntu> err. drive icons
[12:58] <Hobbsee> elkbuntu: yeah.  that's what i found :)
[12:58] <Tm_T> phew, you scared me
[12:58] <elkbuntu> my brain merged drive icons and systray
[12:58] <Tm_T> elkbuntu: scary brains you have then :))
[12:59] <elkbuntu> you're implying i have multiple?
[12:59] <Tm_T> I thought we all have one in head, others in big toes
[12:59] <Tm_T> ah, right, you are hu-mans
[13:00] <elkbuntu> yeah, mere humans
[13:00] <Tm_T> sorry, my bad
[13:00]  * Tm_T climbs back to his mountain and reminds himself of being good old hermit
[14:06] <ompaul> !checkinstall
[14:06] <ubotu> checkinstall is a wrapper to "make install", useful for installing programs you compiled. It will create a .deb package, which will be listed in the APT database and can be uninstalled like other packages. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CheckInstall - Read the warnings at the top and bottom of that web page, and DO NOT interrupt CheckInstall while it's running!
[14:08] <nalioth> doesn't work half the time
[14:11] <ubotu> astro76 called the ops in #ubuntu (maja__)
[14:15] <Hobbsee> nalioth: it worked best when it segfaulted.
[14:17] <nalioth> mine never hits that high of a mark.  it just reports failure and slinks off
[14:19] <LjL> !ntfs
[14:19] <ubotu> To view your Windows/Mac partitions see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/AutomaticallyMountPartitions - For write access, see !NTFS-3g or !FUSE
[14:19] <LjL> !ntfs-3g
[14:19] <ubotu> ntfs-3g is a Linux driver which allows read/write access to NTFS partitions. Installation instructions at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MountingWindowsPartitions
[14:19] <LjL> those two wiki pages are *so* much alike
[14:19] <PriceChild> isn't that all automatic now? :)
[14:21] <LjL> mounting windows partitions? i don't really know. it may be automatic but only for drives detected during installation... and maybe ntfs-3g is not automatic...
[14:22] <LjL> at any rate, those documents are a mess, especially the former
[14:27] <Hobbsee> it's automatic now
[14:27] <Hobbsee> read adn write
[14:29] <nalioth> i don't have ntfs read/write capablility  :(
[14:31] <Hobbsee> you clearly dont have the latest and greatest crack
[14:31] <nalioth> i clearly don't run a machine capable of hosting ntfs partitions  :D
[14:31] <Hobbsee> or that ;P
[14:32]  * nalioth is blight free and likes it that way
[15:06] <ubotu> DShepherd called the ops in #ubuntu ()
[15:06] <ubotu> astro76 called the ops in #ubuntu ()
[15:06] <PriceChild> garrrrr
[15:06] <seanw> I stepped in, hope that was okay LjL?
[15:06] <nalioth> klined
[15:07] <LjL> sure seanw
[15:07] <seanw> nalioth, huh?
[15:07] <PriceChild> There we go...
[15:07] <PriceChild> gah and afetr all that...
[15:08] <tomaw> hehe, 16 mode changes to defeat an 8 line spammer
[15:08] <nalioth> seanw: serial spammer.  visited other channels. blah blah
[15:10] <PriceChild> tomaw, I should have just stayed in bed.... *thwacks chanserv.py for unbanning both*
[15:10] <tomaw> :)
[15:13] <seanw> nalioth, ah kay thanks
[15:13] <seanw> chanserv.py eh?
[15:13] <nalioth> seanw: xchat version of auto_bleh.pl
[15:13] <seanw> AH right.
[15:13] <seanw> Does that script do unbans?
[15:14] <PriceChild> yup
[15:15] <PriceChild> but problem is.. it does a /whois first when you do /cs u to unban all bans on that user... I didn't realise that happenned on anything more than nicknames
[15:15] <PriceChild> and then i made a typo
[15:19] <seanw> I see.
[15:19] <seanw> I will avoid it I think.
[15:24] <LjL> Seveas: is your diskmounter script still actual? (i.e. does it work on feisty/gutsy?) i'm going to remake the filesystems wiki pages a little
[15:25] <Seveas> it's not actual and may fail
[15:27] <LjL> Seveas: what do you suggest, removing it, moving it to the bottom of the page with a disclaimer?
[15:28] <Seveas> remove
[15:29] <nalioth> no
[15:29] <LjL> it's unfortunate though that we don't have even the faint shadow of drive management preferences in the current ubuntu versions :|
[15:29] <nalioth> leave it and mark it usable for feisty and prior with the appropriate warnings for gutsy
[15:30] <nalioth> or edgy and prior 
[15:30] <nalioth> i _have_ used it on feisty and gutsy and it WorkedFormME(tm)
[15:31] <LjL> besides in Kubuntu there is a totally *not* automated (but AtLeastIt'sThere(tm)) disk management kcontrol applet
[15:31] <LjL> nothing at all like that in Ubuntu?
[15:41] <LjL> ok who here thinks that the RootSudo page should *not* tell how to enable root, even with huge disclaimers and warnings attached?
[15:42] <nalioth> +1
[15:42] <PriceChild> LjL, yup
[15:42] <nalioth> there should be an explantory about how Ubuntu is designed to use the sudo model
[15:43] <LjL> well, i know that hobbsee at least thinks differently... and i'm also not entirely comfortable with hiding information from people. *informing* them of the dangers, yes
[15:43] <LjL> (issue here is, there's been a double revert on RootSudo)
[15:46] <PriceChild> oh dear...
[15:46] <PriceChild> I seem to have lost my .gpg with all my passwords in...
[15:46] <LjL> ...
[15:46] <LjL> "lost"?
[15:47] <PriceChild> yup
[15:47] <PriceChild> well only half of them...
[15:47] <LjL> "lost" like in "rm .TABwhooops"?
[15:48] <PriceChild> mhmmm
[15:48] <PriceChild> must have gone a few days ago but didn't notice
[16:04] <ubotu> In #kubuntu, b_ said: ubotu said he is a bot,,,,,
[16:08] <jpatrick> can't certain factoids be locked?
[16:08] <Tm_T> like?
[16:09] <Seveas> jpatrick, yes, by discussing with the other editors :)
[16:10] <jpatrick> like the ubotu one
[16:11] <LjL> jpatrick, he didn't invoke the "ubotu" factoid
[16:11] <LjL> he invoked the "ubuntu said he" factoid, which doesn't exist
[16:12] <LjL> s/ubuntu/ubotu/
[16:12] <jpatrick> ah right
[16:12] <LjL> anyway, it's fun to get to see these smart folks' interactions with the bot :)
[16:23] <ompaul> !rootsudo
[16:23] <ubotu> sudo is a command to run programs with superuser privileges ("root"). Look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo for all information.
[16:37] <LjL> !kernel
[16:37] <ubotu> kernel is the core of the Ubuntu Operating System (named 'Linux') - see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel.  You shouldn't have to compile one, but if you're convinced you do, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelCustomBuild.  Also, see !stages
[16:37] <LjL> !no kernel is <reply> kernel is the core of the Ubuntu Operating System (named 'Linux') - see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel.  You shouldn't have to compile one, but if you're convinced you do, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile. Also, see !stages
[16:37] <ubotu> I'll remember that LjL
[16:59] <ompaul> !stages
[16:59] <ubotu> The Ubuntu Kernel gets updated in stages.  If you have the updated kernel, but do not have the corresponding restricted modules, you may be leaving yourself with no X when you reboot.  If you have compiled binary versions of your video driver, eg from the nVidia site, you will need to recompile them for the new kernel.  This is normal, and not a bug.
[16:59] <ompaul> LjL, idea, are you watching?
[16:59] <LjL> watching what?
[16:59] <ompaul> this
[16:59] <ompaul> just a sec
[17:00] <Pici> who?
[17:01] <ompaul> !no kernel is <reply> A kernel is the core of the Ubuntu Operating System (named 'Linux') - see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel.  If you are convinced have to compile one do, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile. For more: /msg ubotu stages
[17:01] <ubotu> I'll remember that ompaul
[17:01] <ompaul> LjL, cos that means you don't get channels flooded with extra rubbish
[17:02] <ompaul> they should see the stuff themselves
[17:02] <Pici> They'll do it anyway.
[17:02] <LjL> ompaul, yeah some factoids have that, but most factoids have quite a few !words in them, can't change them all into instructions to /msg
[17:02] <Pici> Just like when you do !stages > sillyUser, they do !stages in channel.
[17:02] <Pici> (my pet peeve)
[17:03] <ompaul> well I do actually think that a percentage of stuff is troll based 
[17:03] <LjL> i don't know
[17:03] <LjL> i oscillate between considering people stupid and considering them trolls :)
[17:04] <LjL> anyway i had changed that factoid again already
[17:04] <LjL> !no kernel is <reply> The core of the Ubuntu Operating System is the Linux kernel: see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel - You shouldn't have to compile your own, but if you're convinced you do, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Kernel/Compile - For more: /msg ubotu stages
[17:04] <ubotu> I'll remember that LjL
[17:05] <LjL> better to not have punctuation attached to URLs, some clients will misinterpret that
[17:05] <ompaul> hmm 
[17:05] <ompaul> should we go on a program of removing !foo
[17:05] <Pici> !foo
[17:05] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about foo - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[17:05] <ompaul> actually 
[17:05] <Pici> :(
[17:06] <ompaul> what would be much more rockin would be
[17:06]  * ompaul counts back from 10 to get it right
[17:06] <LjL> ompaul: i don't know... i've actually been the one who added a lot of "!"s to factoids. i know it's not wikipedia, but it's useful to easily link to other factoids... although it does have the drawback of people using them in-channel
[17:06] <ompaul> if we did not put see also's in the factiod but on the wiki page
[17:07] <ompaul> and say see also's 
[17:07] <LjL> ompaul, they're most often not appropriate on wiki pages
[17:07] <Pici> she sell sea shells by the sea shore?
[17:08] <ompaul> she sells C shells by the Bash shore?
[17:08] <LjL> ompaul, what about we bug seveas once more instead, and make him patch the bot so that, if !foo is called after a factoid containing "!foo" was called, it's send in PM, with the usual notice "Please use the bot in PM"?
[17:08] <LjL> like:
[17:08] <LjL> !kompozer
[17:08] <ubotu> kompozer is a WYSIWYG HTML editor for easily creating web pages, and the continuation of the dead Nvu project. It is available in !Universe on !Gutsy, while for older versions you can add the following to your /etc/apt/sources.list file: « deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/tonyyarusso/ubuntu {edgy,feisty} universe »  (pick your release and list it without brackets)
[17:08] <ompaul> LjL, Launchpad is waiting for you, good idea
[17:08] <LjL> then i type !Universe
[17:09] <LjL> but i get a PM: [18:08:57] <Ubotwo> (In the future, please use a private message to investigate) The packages in Ubuntu are divided into several sections. More information at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories and http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/components - See also !EasySource
[17:09] <ompaul> see 
[17:09] <Pici> hmm..
[17:09] <ompaul> which sucks cos it pushes me back to 
[17:09] <ompaul> !easysource 
[17:09] <ubotu> source-o-matic is a webpage where you can (re)generate your sources.list - http://www.ubuntu-nl.org/source-o-matic
[17:09] <ompaul> in the channel
[17:09] <ompaul> LjL, when I first started with ubotu
[17:10] <LjL> ompaul, in that case you'd just be trolling... the bot just opened a query with you, and it's pretty clear from the "(message)" that you should go on typing in there
[17:10] <ompaul> I did a lot of stuff like go though
[17:10] <ompaul> it is clear until you are $silly
[17:10] <TheSheep> you guys want to implement web browser over irc? :)
[17:10] <Pici> Users arent going to notice it.
[17:11] <Pici> They dont notice now when they get queried by ubotu and they wont notice in the future.
[17:11] <TheSheep> why not put the links on the pages that are linked?
[17:11] <ompaul> TheSheep, that was my idea there
[17:11] <ompaul> LjL, what I was going to say about when I started 
[17:11] <TheSheep> ah, sorry, dind't read it whole
[17:11] <ompaul> was this
[17:11] <Pici> We'll just get spammed with people trying to do !factoid !factoid !factoid Why isnt it working!?
[17:11] <ompaul> I tried to make each factoid as short as possible - not adding length to them
[17:12] <LjL> ompaul, Pici: then make the message even more explicit: <ubotu> NOTICE: Type "!" commands here, don't use them in the channel unless you need them to help someone else!  -  Please type !Universe again IN THIS WINDOW to get information about Universe
[17:12] <ompaul> the object of the exercise was to say
[17:12] <LjL> Pici, they do that anyway when the bot is lagged, which it often is. that's a kick, in my book.
[17:13] <ompaul> that with kompozer I would have kompozer is a WYSIWYG HTML editor for creating web pages. More information at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Repositories 
[17:13] <ompaul> cos
[17:14] <LjL> and Repositories would link to Kompozer instructions...? :P
[17:14] <ompaul> all the other seugg we have there  !Universe on !Gutsy
[17:14] <ompaul> are not relevant to the query
[17:14] <ompaul> an alias for nvu would be good
[17:14] <LjL> !nvu
[17:14] <ubotu> kompozer is a WYSIWYG HTML editor for easily creating web pages, and the continuation of the dead Nvu project. It is available in !Universe on !Gutsy, while for older versions you can add the following to your /etc/apt/sources.list file: « deb http://ppa.launchpad.net/tonyyarusso/ubuntu {edgy,feisty} universe »  (pick your release and list it without brackets)
[17:14] <ompaul> okay
[17:14] <ompaul> so 
[17:14] <ompaul> lets look at the info here
[17:15] <ompaul> it breaks into:
[17:15] <Pici> Why dont we just standardize the format of !package factoids
[17:15] <LjL> ompaul: problem is, people think Kompozer is *not* in the repositories, since it wasn't originally. that's why there's "!Universe", a lengthy explanation, and the factoid exists to begin with
[17:15] <LjL> it just wouldn't exist if it were a factoid like all others
[17:15] <Pici> Just like I went through and standardized all the !releasename factoids.
[17:15] <ompaul> !hoary
[17:15] <ubotu> Ubuntu 5.04 (Hoary Hedgehog) was the second release of Ubuntu.  End Of Life: October 31, 2006. See !eol for more details.
[17:15] <Pici> !edgy
[17:15] <ubotu> Ubuntu 6.10 (Edgy Eft) is the 5th release of Ubuntu. Upgrading to Edgy: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/EdgyUpgrades - Downloading: http://us.releases.ubuntu.com/6.10/ - Release Notes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdgyReleaseNotes
[17:15] <Pici> bleh
[17:15] <Pici> I did some of them!
[17:15] <ompaul> !eol
[17:16] <ompaul> cos I am now curious
[17:16] <LjL> Pici, what do you mean? unless there is *specific* information to give about a package, !info <package> should be used (which used to be callable with !<package>, but now unfortunately that's not possible). if there's no additional information to give, then no factoid should exist
[17:16] <ubotu> End-Of-Life is the time when security updates for an Ubuntu release stop. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Website/LifeCycle
[17:16] <LjL> but in the case of !kompozer, it has to be stressed that it's in the repositories
[17:16] <ompaul> LjL, well no what could happen is this, there could be a wiki page where the verbose info is
[17:17]  * Pici checks the factoids.cgi for examples
[17:17] <ompaul> kompozer, a replacement for nvu, See here http://wiki.... for more ino
[17:17] <ompaul> info
[17:17] <ompaul> then you tell the full story
[17:17] <LjL> ompaul, i don't much like that. that's similiar to what ubot-it does: mostly just links to sites. our bot's verbosity is an *asset* in my eyes, although of course it creates drawbacks (like any asset)
[17:18] <ompaul> LjL, okay well, when you have more than a thousand in a channel 
[17:18] <LjL> besides, i'm not sure the wiki folks would like having a page for every bot factoid we have
[17:18] <ompaul> and you have a bot with 5 line factoids and most people don't run full screen 
[17:18] <ompaul> you have a problem
[17:18] <LjL> then force long factoids to always be given in PM if that's really such a problem
[17:18] <ompaul> LjL, they would love it, wiki's are for starting info 
[17:19] <ompaul> LjL, that force long factoids are not the answer
[17:19] <ompaul> they should be short
[17:19]  * ompaul files a bug on long factoids :)
[17:19] <ompaul> the bot is a helper
[17:19] <ompaul> one line gone
[17:19] <LjL> short to the point when it's easier to just reply manually than to call the bot? nah.
[17:19] <Pici> !-printer
[17:19] <ubotu> printer has no aliases - added by Seveas on 2006-06-18 16:28:26
[17:19] <ompaul> let me do something here
[17:19] <Pici> !-printing
[17:19] <ubotu> printing aliases: printers, print, cupsys, ipp - added by Seveas on 2006-06-18 16:31:13
[17:19] <Pici> !-cups
[17:19] <ubotu> cups has no aliases - added by Seveas on 2006-06-18 16:28:32
[17:19] <Pici> tsk tsk
[17:19] <ompaul> !printing
[17:19] <ubotu> Printing in Ubuntu is done with cups. See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Printers - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsPrinters - http://linuxprinting.org - Printer sharing: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NetworkPrintingFromWindows
[17:20] <ompaul> Pici, LjL I want to make my case give me three mins to not dos the bot I want to show something here
[17:20] <ompaul> !automatix
[17:20] <ubotu> Automatix2 is a 3rd-party product attempting to automate installation of additional software. When it fails and breaks systems, we don't provide support for it. A technical analysis from a Debian/Ubuntu developer can be found at http://mjg59.livejournal.com/77440.html (See also: /msg ubotu worksforme)
[17:20] <LjL> wiki pages tend to be *very* long. people just don't read them. bot factoids get the point *across* - if you always just link to a wiki page, people will keep not reading it
[17:20] <LjL> !packages
[17:20] <ubotu> You can browse and search for Ubuntu packages using !Synaptic, !Adept, "apt-cache search <keywords or regex>", the "apt:/" URL in KDE, or online at http://packages.ubuntu.com - Ubuntu has about 20000 packages available, so please *search* for an official package before installing things in awkward ways!
[17:20] <ompaul> !root
[17:20] <ubotu> Do not try to guess the root password, that is impossible. Instead, realise the truth.. there is no root password. Then you will see that it is sudo that grants you access and not the root password. Look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RootSudo
[17:20] <Pici> ompaul: sorry, go ahead.
[17:20] <LjL> should this be in a wiki page? no.
[17:20] <ompaul> LjL, please
[17:21] <ompaul> they can be if they are addressed with the idea of providing information, they are not stuck 
[17:21] <ubotu> In ubotu, jussi01 said: !studiocd is <reply> Ubuntu Studio is only available as an alternate CD. Ubquity does not meet Ubuntu Studio's requirements at this time.
[17:22] <LjL> ompaul, yes they can be in the wiki *too*, but the wiki page will also give another 1500 words and people will miss the POINT: that they should search for packages before installing stuff in weird ways.
[17:22] <ompaul> we actually made the case there three factoids and I in xchat with a size nine font have more than half a screen missing
[17:22] <LjL> we should concisely (more concisely than a wiki, but not so concisely that it's easier to just tell them manually) get the point across to them
[17:23] <ompaul> let's step back to the start of this whole idea
[17:23] <jussi01> hello all... just incase you didnt notice me ;)
[17:23] <LjL> ompaul, those factoids simply should not be called in the channel, generally. PM should be used. if it's not, that's !botabuse. which ends up resulting in a kick.
[17:23] <Pici> !studiocd is <reply> Ubuntu Studio is only available as an alternate CD.  The LiveCD installer does not meet Ubuntu Studio's requirements at this time.
[17:23] <ubotu> I'll remember that, Pici
[17:23]  * jussi01 hugs Pici
[17:23] <Pici> :)
[17:24] <ompaul> a bot is something that should help the transfer of often asked for information, it should not add to the noise in the channel in a significant way
[17:24] <ompaul> !enter
[17:24] <ubotu> Please try to keep your questions/responses on one line - don't use the "Enter" key as punctuation!
[17:24] <ompaul> !repeat
[17:24] <ubotu> Don't feel ignored and repeat your question quickly; if nobody knows your answer, nobody will answer you. You can search https://help.ubuntu.com or http://wiki.ubuntu.com while you wait. Also see !patience
[17:24] <ompaul> !patience
[17:24] <ubotu> The people here are volunteers, your attitude may determine how fast you are helped.  Not everyone is available all the time, likewise not every answer is available instantly. See also http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[17:25] <LjL> these are not often asked for information :) want to make "patience" shorter?     !no patience is <reply> See  http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[17:25] <LjL> but that would NOT be good
[17:25] <ompaul> but it could be maybe a line shorter here it is three lines
[17:26] <ompaul> The people here are volunteers. Not everyone with an answer is available all the time. See also http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[17:27] <LjL> ompaul, i'm fine with shrinking them when information is not taken away - when it's just a matter of making the english more concise
[17:28] <LjL> besides, one has to be careful with aliases. for instance, that factoid went astray...
[17:28] <LjL> !attitude
[17:28] <ubotu> The people in this channel are volunteers. Your attitude will determine how fast you are helped. See also http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[17:28] <LjL> i think these were one and the same.
[17:28] <ompaul> I am minded of the expression:  If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter
[17:28] <ompaul> so it patience
[17:29] <ompaul> LjL, I suppose I am looking for more QA on ubotu
[17:29] <ompaul> ;-)
[17:29] <ompaul> TheSheep, and now there is an objective a bot with more QA
[17:30] <LjL> !no behaviour is <reply> The people here are volunteers, your attitude should reflect that. Answers are not alwaya available. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[17:30] <ubotu> I'll remember that LjL
[17:30] <LjL> !no patience is <alias> behaviour
[17:30] <ompaul> LjL, ;-) 
[17:31] <LjL> ompaul, i *have* worked a quite a bit with the bot to make factoids more uniform, organized and *also* to make them link to one another in a sensible way. i'm partial to that. my style is certainly often more verbose than necessary, i can grant that
[17:31] <ompaul> grant(verbose) to LjL ;-)
[17:31] <LjL> !behaviour =~ s/alwaya/always/
[17:31] <ubotu> I'll remember that LjL
[17:34] <LjL> anyway i think making the bot PM stuff asked after a factoid that contained the same ! can be sound, whether or not factoids are long, i'll file that
[17:35] <Gary> LjL, Answers are not always available. (alwaya to always)
[17:35] <LjL> Gary, [18:31:54] <LjL> !behaviour =~ s/alwaya/always/
[17:35] <ompaul> Gary, scroll back is fun ;-)
[17:35]  * ompaul runs
[17:35]  * Gary smacks himself
[17:36] <LjL> besides, this time i've done it in the channel, but i very often post non-proofread factoids in here, just to inform of the *contents*, but then proceed to proofread them in PM
[17:36] <Gary> I was not judging 
[17:36] <Gary> I like your factoids
[17:36] <ompaul> LjL, you get credited for the most popular factoid
[17:37] <ompaul> !pb
[17:37] <ubotu> pastebin is a service to post large texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the #ubuntu channel topic)
[17:37] <ompaul> called 12406 times
[17:37] <LjL> ompaul, the !-feature is 100% borked
[17:37] <LjL> i hardly created that factoid
[17:37] <Gary> is !boys still about? :-)
[17:37] <Pici> !boys
[17:37] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about boys - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[17:37]  * Gary cries
[17:37] <ompaul> you are credited with it ;-)
[17:37] <LjL> !boys-#ubuntu-offtopic
[17:37] <ubotu> ♪ Bad boys, bad boys, watcha gonna do, watcha gonna do when they come for you ♫
[17:37] <Gary> yay
[17:38] <ompaul> codecs seems to have the most aliases
[17:39] <ompaul> !ubuntu+1
[17:39] <LjL> ompaul: i think at a certain point, the *last person who edited* the factoid was recorded, but then it actually became the person who originally wrote it. so some factoids are credited to one, some to the other
[17:39] <ubotu> Ubuntu 7.10 (Gutsy Gibbon) is the latest version of Ubuntu. Upgrading to Gutsy:  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GutsyUpgrades - Downloading: http://www.ubuntu.com/download - New Features: http://www.ubuntu.com/getubuntu/releasenotes/710tour - Please use bittorrent to download if possible, see !torrents
[17:39] <LjL> ompaul: check out !adept crash fix ;)
[17:39] <ompaul> !adept
[17:39] <ubotu> adept is the Kubuntu package manager. Howto: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/AdeptHowto
[17:39] <ompaul> !adept crash fix
[17:39] <ubotu> If an APT front-end crashed and your database is locked, try this in a !terminal: « sudo fuser -vki /var/lib/dpkg/lock;sudo dpkg --configure -a »
[17:39] <LjL> !-aptlock
[17:39] <ubotu> aptlock aliases: adept crash fix, adeptcrashfix, adeptfix, adept fix, adept fix crash, dpkg fix crash, dpkg crash fix, adept unlock, aptfix, fix adept, fixadept, adeptcrash, apt-fix - added by LjL on 2007-10-21 15:31:48
[17:39] <ompaul> wooooo yukie
[17:39] <LjL> nobody *ever* remembers what the correct syntax is, and they invent a new one :P
[17:39] <ompaul> so many ways to say it
[17:40] <Tm_T> :p
[17:40] <ompaul> !hardy
[17:40] <ubotu> Hardy Heron is the code name for the next release of Ubuntu (8.04-LTS) | Due April 2008 | For more info, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyHeron | Discussion and support in #ubuntu+1
[17:40] <Pici> !secret download
[17:40] <ubotu> super secret downloads! - http://mirrors.ccs.neu.edu/releases.ubuntu.com/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/releases/
[17:40] <ompaul> hehe
[17:40] <LjL> hm that might be deleted now i think :)
[17:40] <LjL> !forget secret download
[17:40] <ubotu> I'll forget that, LjL
[17:40] <Pici> Nope, still works
[17:40] <ompaul> it is now
[17:40] <Pici> aww
[17:40] <LjL> i meant "might" as in "should" :P
[17:40] <LjL> you can restore it next release :P
[17:41] <ompaul> LjL, want to fix !ubuntu+1 ?
[17:41] <ompaul> it needs to point to hardy
[17:41] <Pici> What do you mean?
[17:42] <Pici> oh, nevermind.
[17:42] <LjL> !no hardy is <reply> Hardy Heron is the code name for the next release of Ubuntu (8.04-LTS), due April 2008 - For more info, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyHeron - Discussion and support in #ubuntu+1, NOT #ubuntu
[17:42] <ubotu> I'll remember that LjL
[17:42] <LjL> !no ubuntu+1 is <alias> hardy
[17:42] <ubotu> You are editing an alias. Please repeat the edit command within the next 10 seconds to confirm
[17:42] <LjL> !no ubuntu+1 is <alias> hardy
[17:43] <ompaul> LjL, !spam call it here and then imagine how wounded I feel ;-)
[17:43] <ompaul> !spam
[17:43] <ubotu> Unsure how you should behave on this channel? See !AskTheBot, !CoC, !Guidelines, !Offtopic, !Language, !Attitude, !Repeat, !Enter, !Paste, !NickSpam - and most importantly, use common sense :-)
[17:44] <LjL> !overly-long-factoid-that-will-destroy-ompaul's-screen-and-make-it-explode-into-pieces
[17:44] <ompaul> LjL, na it is the repeated !
[17:44] <LjL> ompaul: well there *is* a reason that !AskTheBot is *first*, though :P
[17:44] <ompaul> !askthebot
[17:45] <ompaul> lets see how long this is
[17:45] <ompaul> if you call one and the others all get called what a mess that would be
[17:45] <LjL> !no etiquette is <reply> Unsure how you should behave on this channel? See (in a private message with the bot, /msg ubotu <keyword>): !AskTheBot, !CoC, !Guidelines, !Offtopic, !Language, !Attitude, !Repeat, !Enter, !Paste, !NickSpam - and most importantly, use common sense...
[17:45] <ubotu> I'll remember that LjL
[17:46] <LjL> !-askthebot
[17:46] <ubotu> askthebot is <alias> botabuse - added by Seveas on 2006-06-19 23:02:59
[17:46] <LjL> ompaul: why didn't it reply to you?
[17:46] <ompaul> !askthebot
[17:46] <ubotu> Please investigate with me only in /msg or in #ubuntu-bots (type also /msg ubotu Bot). Also avoid adding joke/useless factoids. Abusing the channel bots will only result in angry ops...
[17:46] <LjL> seveas was lurking and implemented that thing before i could even file it? :P
[17:47] <Seveas> lurking yes, but not implementing
[17:47] <ompaul> Seveas, hiya 
[17:47] <LjL> then why did it ignore ompaul? *scratches head*
[17:47]  * Gary hides from Seveas 
[17:47] <ompaul> LjL, your's or mine
[17:47] <LjL> ompaul: [18:44:56] <ompaul> !askthebot
[17:47] <LjL> it never replied
[17:48] <ompaul> I wonder did it see me at all
[17:48] <Gary> hard to miss
[17:48] <ompaul> Seveas, I got this idea, it might be totally nuts - or not 
[17:48] <LjL> i say totally nuts :P
[17:49] <ompaul> Seveas, imagine you had a second bot that only spoke
[17:49] <Seveas> !-span
[17:49] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about span - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[17:49] <Seveas> !-spam
[17:49] <ubotu> spam is <alias> etiquette - added by Mez on 2007-02-11 16:34:50
[17:49] <Seveas> !-askthebot
[17:49] <ubotu> askthebot is <alias> botabuse - added by Seveas on 2006-06-19 23:02:59
[17:49] <ompaul> and one that read and passed the parameter to the other
[17:49] <Seveas> ompaul, that's nuts 
[17:49] <LjL> yup, nuts. though i haven't understood what you mean anyway :P
[17:50] <ompaul> Seveas, an even more evil question
[17:50] <ompaul> does the bot read what it says?
[17:51] <Seveas> it can be made to
[17:51] <ompaul> so it does not at this time
[17:51] <ompaul> thats good ;-)
[17:51] <LjL> Seveas what about (aside from the fact that you'll be too lazy to implement it, just the concept itself) making factoids go in PM if they were contained in previously called factoids? pici *does* have a point in that this risks making people type !factoid !factoid !factoid because they don't realize they have a PM. worth that risk?
[17:51] <Seveas> LjL, not sure
[17:51] <Pici> Good answer :)
[17:52] <Seveas> I don't like it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't make sense
[17:52] <LjL> Seveas: well it's not much unlike the current !factoid > myself resulting in a PM (actually i suspect the implementation can be based on it). anyway i *do* like the concept of factoids linking to one another...
[17:53] <LjL> i'd be sad to see it go away, i'd rather find a workable solution
[17:53] <ompaul> LjL, are you php capable ikonia is in #ubuntu-offtopic looking for 5 mins
[17:56] <LjL> hmm i write some php but mostly hack it around while looking at php.net, let's see
[17:56] <LjL> "solid with the basics" - hardly
[18:14] <Tm_T> hug me!
[18:14] <ompaul> Seveas, LjL planning on a mini unban up to mid september for #ubuntu but -- leaving the forwards to read topic
[18:16] <LjL> is "sudobash" in #ubuntu sudoking aka sudosu?
[18:16] <LjL> he seems an idiot anyway
[18:17]  * LjL punches Tm_T
[18:17] <LjL> ompaul: good though i'd leave nickname/ident/realname bans in place perhaps
[18:17] <ompaul> as per usual they are
[18:18] <Tm_T> LjL: :(
[18:26] <Myrtti> Hey, LjL, he's my friend :-<
[18:26]  * LjL punches Myrtti too
[18:28] <Myrtti> Hey, you don't punch a lady with glasses!
[18:28] <Myrtti> this is unfair!
[18:28] <LjL> Myrtti: yes, to my hands. you should have warned me about having glasses before i punched you.
[18:29] <Myrtti> /me pokes LjL with a pink fluffypointed pen blinking with LED lights
[18:29] <Myrtti> *poink*
[18:30] <LjL> ooooh, LED
[18:34] <LjL> see, i told you he was going to be a troll
[18:34] <Tm_T> who is troll?
[18:34] <LjL> sudobash
[18:35] <Tm_T> ah him
[18:36] <LjL> Seveas, that was good advice though :P
[18:41] <Seveas> --- Seveas sets ban on sudo*!*@*
[18:41] <Seveas> is that too wide?
[18:42] <no0tic> a little too wide, probably :)
[18:42] <LjL> Seveas, he's probably not the same user as SudoKing as i suspected (checked the /ns info), so until he tries to rejoin no reason to ban him hard...
[18:43] <no0tic> who knows? perhaps everyone whose name's sudo* is a troll inside
[18:43] <LjL> and yeah, i think it might be a little too wide anyway... what about hardcore Sudoku players :)
[18:43] <LjL> by the way, /whois sudokin1
[18:43] <LjL> sudoking's clone surely
[18:44] <ompaul> they should play nethack
[18:58] <LjL> !files
[18:58] <ubotu> The files and directories on an Ubuntu system are organized according to a standard, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filesystem_Hierarchy_Standard - file permissions are explained at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FilePermissions - All filenames and directory names (and many other things) are case sensitive in Linux
[18:58] <LjL> !no files is <reply> An explanation of how files and directories are organized on Ubuntu, and how they can be manipulated, can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LinuxFilesystemTreeOverview
[18:58] <ubotu> I'll remember that LjL
[18:58] <LjL> ompaul: happy? :P (the page mentioned is about to get a revamp, yes)
[18:58] <Myrtti> joo, on mullakin tossa duunijuttuja auki
[18:58] <Myrtti> ärsh
[18:58] <ompaul> LjL, ;-)
[18:59] <LjL> Myrtti: i wholeheartedly agree
[18:59] <ompaul> Myrtti, most likely on tuesdays ... ;-)
[20:27] <ompaul> ikonia, I take it you saw the pm
[20:36] <ompaul> ikonia, ohh yes he is - just not with /ignore ;-)
[20:38] <ikonia> ompaul: I just saw the pm - sorry for the slow response someone was jabbering on to me
[20:38] <ompaul> ikonia, np
[21:13] <LjL> gah... how do you give internal links a different label than the pagename on moinmoin
[21:14] <TheSheep> LjL: you'll love it
[21:14] <LjL> i have a feeling i won't
[21:14] <TheSheep> LjL: [:page name:link name]
[21:14] <LjL> well, i'm happy it can be done at least, i was starting to doubt it
[21:25] <LjL> ok, have a look at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LinuxFilesystemTreeOverview which is now what !files, !permissions, !chmod etc point to, i've basically written it from scratch
[21:38] <LjL> working on the wiki discourages me
[21:38] <LjL> i find two pages that look to much alike and start thinking about merging them
[21:38] <LjL> then i realize there's another *four* pages that basically say the same thing to
[21:38] <LjL> after my head has already started spinning, i find out that it's really all in the official guide
[21:38] <LjL> why do we have wiki pages *at all* for stuff that's right there in the guide?
[21:41] <ompaul> that was where the guides came from
[21:41] <ompaul> LjL, ^^
[21:42] <ompaul> LjL, have a chat with mdke maybe there is a chance to start filing "dupes" against the pages and have them worked into one 
[21:42] <LjL> ompaul: but then the guides sometimes/often seem more polished, somewhat unsurprisingly. though, the wiki often has more "practical" information. at the end of the day, what should we prefer on the bot?
[21:43] <ompaul> LjL, the offical doc - the wiki the forum
[21:43] <LjL> ompaul, i already mentioned the issue to mdke (it's about filesystem mounting pages specifically), although when i did, i hadn't yet found that there weren't *only* two pages
[21:43] <ompaul> unless that has changed
[21:43] <nalioth> the bot gets what works from the official sources
[21:43] <LjL> ok, but mostly the bot has links to the wiki currently... very few links to the official guide afaics
[21:43] <LjL> besides, is wiki.ubuntu.com now supposed to be used for *any* sort of ubuntu documentation?
[21:44] <ompaul> LjL, yeaop
[21:45] <LjL> what kind? note that when i say "official guide", i mean like https://help.ubuntu.com/7.04/installation-guide/hppa/directory-tree.html
[21:45] <LjL> when i say "wiki", i mean like  https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LinuxFilesystemTreeOverview
[21:45] <LjL> and when i say wiki.ubuntu.com, i don't know what i mean
[21:47] <ompaul> LjL, wiki.ubuntu.com is not help.ubuntu.com 
[21:47] <LjL> indeed it is not
[21:47] <ompaul> wiki is help / community
[21:48] <LjL> right, in fact i call help.ubuntu.com "official guide", and i called help.ubuntu.com/community "wiki"
[21:48] <LjL> but wiki.ubuntu.com is definitely also a wiki
[21:48] <LjL> so, help.ubuntu.com is made up by putting stuff together from help.ubuntu.com/community and polishing it -- is that what you're saying?
[21:49] <LjL> and if yes, what's the place of wiki.ubuntu.com as far as documentation goes?
[21:55] <jrib> locos and ubuntu teams use it
[21:55] <jrib> specs too
[21:56] <jrib> so wiki stuff that is not documentation basically
[21:56] <LjL> jrib: yes, we use it for the guidelines as well... but that was my question: no *ubuntu* documentation?
[21:57] <jrib> as I understand it, no ubuntu documentation on wiki.ubuntu.com.  Are you asking where documentation for other things belongs?
[21:58] <LjL> jrib: no, no, i just wanted to make sure that wiki.ubuntu.com is never for ubuntu documentation.
[21:59] <LjL> i'm confused enough by the plentiful of stuff in help.ubuntu.com/community + help.ubuntu.com, that's reassuring that at least wiki.ubuntu.com does *not* have documentation
[22:00] <LjL> infatti
[22:29] <ompaul> !tor
[22:29] <ubotu> The #ubuntu channel and related channels ban users joining from anonymous gateways like tor/silenceisdefeat/cgi:irc because the abuse:useful ratio is close to infinity:nothing -- project cloaks will let you join, otherwise you should simply not use an anonymizer.
[22:29] <ubotu> Attention tor users.  You may think you are anonymous, but you are not.  Please visit http://tor.unixgu.ru/ and see for yourself.   Please evaluate your need to use tor here on irc.  If you wish anonymity, Freenode offers cloaks of many different types. http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks
[22:34] <LjL> ompaul: i aliased it to !proxy just some minutes ago
[22:34] <ompaul> arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
[22:35]  * ompaul is mid edit
[22:35] <ompaul> okay
[22:35] <Pici> Are you two still looking at factoids?
[22:35] <LjL> !pici
[22:35] <ompaul> I am
[22:35] <ubotu> pici is stuck in a factoid factory! Halp!
[22:35] <Pici> :D
[22:35] <LjL> !-pici
[22:35] <ubotu> pici has no aliases - added by Pici on 2007-10-17 17:36:26
[22:35] <ompaul> and they are the wrong way around
[22:35] <LjL> i see
[22:36] <ompaul> but no matter I was trying to cut out a few words
[22:36] <Pici> <.<
[22:36] <ompaul> how about >> no proxy is <reply> The #ubuntu and related channels prohibit users on anonymous gateways such as tor/silenceisdefeat/cgi:irc as the abuse from these was extreme. Note that project cloaks will let you join, otherwise you should simply not use an anonymizer. 
[22:36] <ompaul> it is shorter
[22:36] <ompaul> The #ubuntu and related channels prohibit users on anonymous gateways such as tor/silenceisdefeat/cgi:irc as the abuse from these was extreme. Note that project cloaks will let you join, otherwise you should simply not use an anonymizer. 
[22:36] <ompaul> actually 
[22:36] <ompaul> The #ubuntu and related channels prohibit users on anonymous gateways such as tor/silenceisdefeat/cgi:irc as the abuse from these was extreme. Note that project cloaks will let you join.
[22:37] <ompaul> yay I got rid of some stuff
[22:37] <LjL> perhaps the link to cloaks should stay
[22:37] <LjL> otherwise they'd just ask what the heck a cloak is
[22:37] <ompaul> yes
[22:37] <ompaul> The #ubuntu and related channels prohibit users on anonymous gateways such as tor/silenceisdefeat/cgi:irc as the abuse from these was extreme. Note that project cloaks will let you join. See: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks
[22:37] <ompaul> boo I want more removed
[22:38] <LjL> (also anyway the #ubuntu-proxy-users topic is verbose)
[22:38] <ompaul> let me see 
[22:38] <LjL> ompaul, you're getting on my nerves now, i'll have to resort to ad hitlerum >:
[22:38] <LjL> ompaul, you're a factoid conciseness NAZI
[22:38] <Pici> :O
[22:39] <nalioth> LjL: ?
[22:39] <LjL> nalioth: go on
[22:39] <ompaul> ahh he can stay
[22:39] <ompaul> he is right 
[22:39] <ompaul> or wrong
[22:39] <ompaul> or whatever
[22:39] <nalioth> pretty harsh, LjL 
[22:40] <LjL> nalioth: well, i couldn't think of anything nicer that would highlight the whole channel. except !ops, but !ops would have been totally out of context.
[22:41] <Pici> anyway.
[22:42] <ompaul> #ubuntu & related channels prohibit access from proxy servers (tor/cgi:irc etc) due to a high level of  the abuse. NB that project cloaks will let you join. See: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks
[22:42] <ompaul> more to do 
[22:42]  * tomaw blinks
[22:42] <ompaul> #ubuntu & related channels prohibit access from proxy servers (tor/cgi:irc etc) due to a high level of  the abuse. NB Project cloaks allowed: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks
[22:43] <LjL> ¡no proxy is <reply> u cant get in w/ proxiez n00b.
[22:43] <ompaul> LjL, STOP IT
[22:43] <ompaul> ;p
[22:43] <LjL> hey, it's short!
[22:43] <ompaul> LjL, I want to loose two more words
[22:43] <Pici> high level of <strike>the</strike> abuse
[22:43] <LjL> "tor/cgi:irc etc"
[22:43] <LjL> makes three words
[22:44] <LjL> and, for goodness sake, restore the "and"
[22:44] <ompaul> #ubuntu and related channels prohibit access from proxy servers due to a high level of abuse. NB Project cloaks allowed: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks
[22:44] <ompaul> whoot
[22:44] <ompaul> now I am happy
[22:44] <ompaul> anyone not like that?
[22:44] <LjL> Pici, now stop writing your request for irc council membership, i'll get away with this :P
[22:45] <ompaul> shadup already
[22:45] <LjL> ompaul: i don't like it! oh wait, it's what i just told you to type. i like it.
[22:45] <ompaul> okay ready to rock
[22:45] <ompaul> !no proxy is #ubuntu and related channels prohibit access from proxy servers due to a high level of abuse. NB Project cloaks allowed: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks
[22:45] <ubotu> I'll remember that ompaul
[22:45] <Myrtti> why are you shorenin factoids?
[22:45] <ompaul> Myrtti, they are too long
[22:45]  * ompaul rofls
[22:46] <tomaw> You people either have a very odd way of flirty or I am very sleepy
[22:46] <Pici> Myrtti: Ubotu's server is running out of disk space
[22:46] <tomaw> flirting*
[22:46] <LjL> ompaul: i suggest a <reply>
[22:46] <Myrtti> pwah
[22:46] <Pici> Plus they weigh less
[22:46] <ompaul> !no proxy is <reply> #ubuntu and related channels prohibit access from proxy servers due to a high level of abuse. NB Project cloaks allowed: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks
[22:46] <ubotu> I'll remember that ompaul
[22:46] <Pici> I know what NB means, but do our users?
[22:46] <Myrtti> im so cold
[22:46] <LjL> cargo boat 6 pm stop turn right six nodes stop
[22:47] <ompaul> Pici, they better
[22:47] <ompaul> Pici, point I'll kill it
[22:47] <LjL> Pici: they'll think we're calling them "noob", it'll work just as well.
[22:47] <ompaul> !no proxy is <reply> #ubuntu and related channels prohibit access from proxy servers due to a high level of abuse. Project cloaks allowed: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#cloaks
[22:47] <nalioth> NB ?
[22:47] <ubotu> I'll remember that ompaul
[22:47] <ompaul> note beni
[22:47] <LjL> nota bene
[22:47] <ompaul> ahh
[22:48] <ompaul> tomaw, we do indeed - sleepy head
[22:48] <tomaw> :)
[22:48] <ompaul> ;-)
[22:48] <ompaul> can I have one more long factoid please
[22:49] <LjL> can i has factoidz?!
[22:49] <ompaul> i can haz factoidz?
[22:49] <LjL> ah sorry
[22:49] <Myrtti> lul
[22:49] <LjL> i'm not fluent in lolcat
[22:49] <LjL> anyway, hmm, i'm sure i knew many of them
[22:49] <LjL> but ouch they all escape me now :P
[22:50] <Myrtti> !automatix
[22:50] <ubotu> Automatix2 is a 3rd-party product attempting to automate installation of additional software. When it fails and breaks systems, we don't provide support for it. A technical analysis from a Debian/Ubuntu developer can be found at http://mjg59.livejournal.com/77440.html (See also: /msg ubotu worksforme)
[22:50] <ompaul> LjL, the only really long factoid that I have an interest in now is automatix and it
[22:50] <ompaul> Myrtti, yeap as I was saying
[22:50] <ompaul> !works for me
[22:50] <ubotu> Common Sense: Just because you can, does not mean you should. Think before you do. "Works for me" does not mean it is ok. The latest version of everything is not always useful if you aim for stability.
[22:51] <ompaul> okay works for me is going to get it and then I will see what I can do with the other
[22:53] <LjL> ompaul, if you change works for me seveas will kill you. oh, same for !doesn't work.
[22:53] <Seveas> indeed
[22:53] <LjL> i'd be in favor of shortening automatix though: Don't use Automatix, it will break your system and we'll laugh at you, kthxbye.
[22:54] <Seveas> indeed again
[22:54] <ompaul> LjL, I usually am sensitive to what needs to be said and I think that Seveas might even approve of them
[22:54] <Myrtti> automatix baddon't use it.
[22:54] <ompaul> na na na
[22:54] <LjL> ompaul: seveas approve? do you even know which words you're putting together in the same sentence?
[22:54] <Seveas> LjL, he may be drunk
[22:54] <Pici> Seveas resigned from approving things
[22:54] <ompaul> automatix is lulz joke on U, you can has brokez sestym
[22:54] <Seveas> Pici, I'm still botmaster ;)
[22:55] <Pici> Seveas: I know ;)
[22:55] <jrib> "automatix is not recommended or supported, see: foo"
[22:55] <Seveas> s/foo/you fool!/
[22:55] <LjL> and anyway that won't stop him from disapproving i'm sure :P
[22:55] <Myrtti> cold
[22:56] <LjL> jokes aside, i +1 jrib. that factoid was recently modified to make it more PC so to say, but it can be PC and yet not waste characters describing something we don't want to hear about
[22:56] <Myrtti> yeah
[22:57] <Myrtti> use at your own risk
[22:57] <Pici> Perhaps !envy should be de-humorized too and focus more on why its not needed now.
[22:57] <LjL> !no automatix is not recommended, supported or needed. See http://mjg59.livejournal.com/77440.html and « /msg ubotu WorksForMe »
[22:57] <ubotu> I'll remember that LjL
[22:57] <ompaul> !envy
[22:57] <ubotu> envy is a script that may leave you envious of those who have not used it, use the resticted manager to install binary drivers or use the instructions on the wiki, this script may break your machine very badly!
[22:58] <ompaul> !no envy is <reply> envy is not needed e the resticted manager to install binary drivers or use the instructions on the wiki.
[22:58] <ubotu> I'll remember that ompaul
[22:59] <Pici> !envy =~ s/ e / /
[22:59] <ubotu> I'll remember that Pici
[22:59] <LjL> not needed *or supported*.
[22:59] <LjL> we do want to make clear that we don't support that stuff.
[22:59] <Pici> !envy =~ s/needed/needed or supported. Use/
[22:59] <ubotu> I'll remember that Pici
[22:59] <Pici> !envy
[22:59] <ubotu> envy is not needed or supported. Use the resticted manager to install binary drivers or use the instructions on the wiki.
[23:00] <LjL> !no envy is not needed or supported. Use the Resticted Manager to install binary drivers and see « /msg ubotu binarydriver »
[23:00] <ubotu> I'll remember that LjL
[23:01] <LjL> yet again... if i could just write "Use the Restricted Manager to install your !binarydriver"... that would make it so much shorter, no ompaul? :P
[23:01] <nalioth> but that doesn't put 'envy' in the factoid
[23:01] <LjL> nalioth: ?
[23:01] <nalioth> and folks may not realize 'envy' does 'restricted driver things'
[23:01] <LjL> nalioth, no, i meant this
[23:02] <Pici> And not realize that we dont support or condone its use
[23:02] <nalioth> LjL: you have to write these so that retarded idiots can understand them
[23:02] <LjL> no envy is not needed or supported. Use the Resticted Manager to install your !BinaryDrivers
[23:02] <LjL> just this
[23:02] <nalioth> if a retarded idiot can get it, everyone else can, too
[23:02] <LjL> nalioth: but the thing is that were were arguing earlier whether !linking to !factoids is a good thing, or it just makes people flood the channel by invoking them in the channel
[23:03] <LjL> having "type /msg ubotu blah blah" in factoids makes them longer and inelegant, and in many cases, just cannot be done
[23:04] <LjL> the other idea was putting this sort of cross-links in the *wiki* instead, but i think they have their place in the bot
[23:06] <Myrtti> links get lost on long pages
[23:07] <LjL> yeah
[23:07] <Myrtti> gets too growded
[23:07] <LjL> i do realize that putting !factoids inside factoids makes people type those in the channel
[23:07] <LjL> that's a drawback i admit
[23:07] <LjL> but... it's still cool :)
[23:08] <Myrtti> if the   bot could msg the additionsal info
[23:08] <Myrtti> automaticaölly
[23:09] <Pici> I think thats asking too much, plus lots of times other people in the channel are interested in what the additional information is.
[23:10] <ompaul> LjL, go for it
[23:12] <LjL> Myrtti, i suggested this but i'm not sure it's viable either: when !factoid1 is called in the channel and it mentions !factoid2, then if !factoid2 is called immediately after, it gets sent in a PM to the caller, with a warning to PM the bot in the future
[23:13] <Tm_T> humm
[23:14] <LjL> obvious caveat... people who don't understand what a PM is will keep doing !factoid2 !factoid2 thinking the bot is stuck
[23:15] <LjL> although, imho, that shouldn't really happen so often... when it does one gets a kick, because it doesn't take rocket science to realize that that's spamming a channel
[23:15] <Tm_T> LjL: some "first part" of information in factoid, rest in wiki, sounds reasonable to me, though apparently people are lazy to read anyway
[23:16] <LjL> Tm_T: yeah the problem *is* that people are lazy. so i'm concerned about putting the stuff that matters right in the bot, so they won't miss it
[23:16] <Tm_T> LjL: yup, thats the "first part"
[23:16] <ompaul> !bootoptions
[23:16] <ubotu> For a list and explanation on some of the boot options, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BootOptions
[23:16] <ompaul> now that is a factoid ;-)
[23:17] <ompaul> !ati
[23:17] <ubotu> To install the Ati/NVidia drivers for your video card, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/BinaryDriverHowto
[23:17] <ompaul> !wireless
[23:17] <ubotu> Wireless documentation can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/WifiDocs
[23:17] <Tm_T> LjL: and IMHO we should encourage to activity in learning ;)
[23:17] <ompaul> Tm_T, you have no humble in your opinion - you messer
[23:17] <LjL> ompaul, those *are* useful, but they're little more than tinyurls.
[23:17] <Tm_T> er?
[23:17] <LjL> i think the bot has higher uses than that.
[23:17] <Tm_T> ompaul: ?
[23:18] <ompaul> Tm_T,  I am being lighthearted
[23:18]  * Tm_T dont understand
[23:18] <LjL> Tm_T, don't worry about it.
[23:18] <Tm_T> :(
[23:18] <Tm_T> and now I feel like a fool
[23:18] <Tm_T> though thats not a new thing either
[23:19] <LjL> Tm_T, i mean, i have no idea what he's talking about either
[23:19] <ompaul> Tm_T, I am hard to understand at the best of times
[23:19] <ompaul> proof positive of this is the topic in -offtopic
[23:21] <LjL> ompaul: now, want some taste of some of my *real* factoids? :>
[23:21] <LjL> !p2p
[23:21] <ubotu> Peer-to-peer filesharing clients are available for several networks/protocols, including !BitTorrent, !Gnutella, !eDonkey, !DirectConnect, !SoulSeek - Multi-protocol engines include !MLDonkey and !giFT - See wiki.ubuntu.com/P2PFileSharing for general information
[23:21] <LjL> go on, follow the links
[23:21] <LjL> also, where did the http:// go
[23:21] <ompaul> ood dear
[23:22] <ompaul> !bittorrent
[23:22] <ubotu> Torrent clients: Transmission (GTK and terminal-based), Deluge-Torrent, Freeloader, BitStormLite, BitTornado-GUI (GTK), KTorrent (KDE), QTorrent (Qt), Azureus (Java), TorrentFlux (web-based), bittornado, rTorrent, cTorrent, bittorrent, aria2 (terminal-based) - FAQ: http://www.bittorrent.com/FAQ.html - See also !P2P
[23:22] <ompaul> !edonkey
[23:22] <ubotu> eDonkey clients: aMule (GTK, stand-alone), mldonkey-gui (GTK, based on MLDonkey), KMLDonkey (KDE, based on MLDonkey) - See also !P2P
[23:22] <ompaul> !directconnect
[23:22] <ubotu> Direct Connect clients: Valknut (Qt), dcgui (GTK), dc-qt (Qt, alpha), rccp (terminal-based) - See also !P2P
[23:22] <ompaul> !soulseek
[23:22] <ubotu> SoulSeek clients: Nicotine (GTK), Museeq (KDE), Mucous (terminal-based) - See also !P2P
[23:22] <ompaul> !mldonkey
[23:22] <ubotu> mldonkey is a peer-to-peer filesharing engine supporting several networks and protocols, available in !Universe as 'mldonkey-server'. Clients include mkdonkey-gui (GTK) and KMLDonkey (KDE). See https://help.ubuntu.com/community/MLDonkey - See also !P2P
[23:23] <ompaul> !gift
[23:23] <LjL> you killed the bot now
[23:23] <ompaul> heh
[23:23] <ubotu> gift is a peer-to-peer filesharing engine supporting several networks and protocols by means of plug-ins. It's available in !Universe. Clients include gifTui, giFToxic (GTK), Apollon (KDE), giFTcurs (terminal-based) - See also !P2P
[23:23]  * ompaul cries
[23:23] <nalioth> channel !spam
[23:23] <nalioth> channel !spam
[23:23] <nalioth> channel !spam
[23:24] <LjL> hey, i just wrote them, ompaul called them.
[23:24] <LjL> bad ompaul.
[23:24] <ompaul> LjL, they all should call p2p which then points to the url
[23:24] <ompaul> which is rather verbose
[23:25] <ompaul> LjL, some additional clients could be added to the wiki
[23:25] <LjL> verbose, yes... it tells you what the *Windows* clients are
[23:25] <LjL> ... and, sometimes, what some of the Ubuntu clients are
[23:25] <LjL> without even specifying if they're GNOME or KDE
[23:25] <LjL> also, why is it on wiki.ubuntu.com?
[23:25] <ompaul> LjL, now theres a job for someone ;-)
[23:26] <LjL> didn't we just finish saying wiki.ubuntu.com was *not for ubuntu documentation*?
[23:26] <ompaul> LjL, cos it is so unprofessional 
[23:26] <ompaul> it never made the leap
[23:26] <ompaul> well now there is a project for next week
[23:26] <ompaul> right now I am going to bed!
[23:27] <LjL> ompaul: waitwait, there is a help.ubuntu.com page too!
[23:27] <LjL> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/P2PHowTo
[23:27]  * ompaul gives up
[23:27] <ompaul> sleep will not be easy LjL I tell ya
[23:27] <ompaul> ;-)
[23:27] <nalioth> night, ompaul 
[23:27] <LjL> nonono
[23:27] <LjL> aaaw he hasn't looked at the lovely eDonkey paragraph
[23:27] <LjL> where they make you get a tarball
[23:28] <LjL> and the run the .sh script.... not as root though
[23:29] <LjL> ok seriously, a lot of the documentation is a mess. i suppose i could go and write yet another wiki page from scratch (as it's easier than putting the existing stuff together)
[23:29] <LjL> but really, ubotu is *already* better than that
[23:30] <Pici> I agree, the wiki *is* a mess
[23:30] <LjL> Pici: *which* wiki? :)
[23:30] <LjL> i don't think i've really understood yet which one is the real one :P
[23:31] <Pici> um.. wiki/help.ubuntu.com?
[23:32] <LjL> Pici: yeah, wiki or help? why is there documentation in wiki.? why is it duplicated in help.? ompaul said the wiki. one is so lousy that it didn't make it to help., but the help. one is even lousier on the same topic