[06:37] Hi all! [10:58] \nick txwikinger2 === dino_ is now known as MrLimeni [11:29] * effie_jayx pellizca a elkbuntu [11:49] !schedule [11:49] Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases [11:49] :P === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach [11:59] dholbach, listo? [12:00] hey effie_jayx [12:00] listo? [12:00] ready in spanish [12:00] ;) [12:00] in an hour :) [12:00] cool [12:00] * effie_jayx check his watch... [12:00] doh [12:00] oh no, it's 12:00 UTC already [12:01] lol [12:01] !now [12:01] Sorry, I don't know anything about now - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi [12:01] @now [12:01] Current time in Etc/UTC: November 16 2007, 12:01:19 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 6 days [12:01] hehe [12:01] effie_jayx: hang on, I'll advertise the session in other channels [12:01] dholbach, no problem [12:02] welcome everybody to our MOTU Q&A session! [12:02] let's start with the usual round of introductions [12:02] hello everybody [12:03] I'm Daniel Holbach, have been MOTU for a couple of releases already, worked in the Desktop Team and other places, but now am focussed on making MOTU KICK ASS and make going through the MOTU process as smooth and enjoyable as possible :) [12:03] who else do we have here? :) [12:03] * jono raises hand/join #ubuntu-classroom-chat [12:03] oops [12:03] heh [12:03] do we have a MOTUKA team already? I want to join [12:04] norsetto: MOTUKA? what's that going to be? :) [12:04] * dholbach spotted some familiar faces - introduce yourselves :-) [12:04] err, MOTU KICK ASS? [12:04] haha [12:04] * dholbach hugs norsetto [12:04] * norsetto hugs dholbach back [12:05] ok, let me introduce a few people then... [12:05] we have norsetto, Cesare Tirabassi, who has similar aims as I do: making becoming a MOTU fun and as smooth as possible [12:05] seb128, Sébastien Bacher, Desktop king and packaging ace [12:05] * seb128 hugs dholbach [12:05] we have jono "Jäger" bacon, Metal Drummer and Community Manager [12:06] * lool waves [12:06] hehe [12:06] heya lool :) [12:06] * norsetto hopes metal as in heavy metal not those fancy carribean drums .... [12:06] norsetto: indeed :) [12:06] we have Hobbsee, she kicks ass in the MOTU team and has the large pointy stick of doom [12:06] * Hobbsee waves [12:07] lool, Loïc Minier, he rocks as much as Séb does [12:07] we have pedro_, Desktop Bugs King, always trying to get close to beat Séb with his Karma points :) [12:07] who else do we have here? who did I miss? [12:07] who of you is interested in becoming a MOTU and joining the team? [12:08] * effie_jayx raises hand [12:08] effie_jayx: great to have you here [12:08] * warp10 raises hend [12:08] dholbach: Don't say "as much", one of Séb and me must be better than the other, you got to name the best of us two [12:08] warp10: great :) [12:08] :-P [12:08] jono wants to become a MOTU too :-) [12:08] * Hobbsee wants to become a motu! :P [12:08] * dholbach hugs Hobbsee [12:09] * lool just became a MOTU [12:09] I'm Dino Rastoder, and i am student at computer science. I'm very interested in becoming a MOTU. [12:09] lool: I wouldn't try to make that decision - you guys ROCK :) [12:09] * proppy raises a finger [12:09] nice, great to have you all here [12:09] this is great [12:09] :) [12:09] * txwikinge2 waves [12:09] * norsetto obliges proppy to open that damn hand [12:09] do we have questions already? [12:09] can I make one small statement dholbach? [12:09] jono: sure [12:10] I would just like to encourage all existing MOTUs and all new prospective MOTUs to spread the word about MOTU and blog about it - I would love to see new MOTUs blogging about their progress [12:10] this session is completely free-form: so please interrupt and ask whenever you have a question or a statement to make [12:10] heya [12:10] jono: very good point [12:10] dholbach, do we use #ubuntu-classroom-chat for Q's? [12:10] MOTU is going to be a real focus in the coming year, so I would love to see us all advocate people getting involved [12:10] :) [12:10] it'd be great to have more coverage on planet ubuntu, also setting up a blog at wordpress.com should be just a matter of a few clicks [12:11] effie_jayx: no, just ask in here [12:11] do we have questions already? [12:12] who of you played with packaging tools already? [12:12] dholbach: hwo is it with the package names for different releases. DO they change even nothing in the package changes? [12:12] What are responsibility of a MOTU? [12:12] dholbach, Your last session on packaging on Open Week was awesome. very "human", I wanted to find the logs to it. but I found it was your first talk on both logfiles [12:12] * txwikinge2 is playing with the packaging tools [12:13] txwikinge2: if there are no changes during a releases, the package is unchanged but will be transferred into the new "release pocket" [12:13] so assume we had package (1.2.3) in feisty and it had no changes during gutsy [12:13] then it will be package (1.2.3) in hardy too [12:13] txwikinge2: does that answer the question? [12:14] but you have to change the gutsy->hardy in the changelog file ? [12:14] txwikinge2: only if you do an upload to hardy [12:14] some packages have changelog entries that date back to edgy, some might even date back to warty [12:14] ah ok.. thanks [12:14] great [12:14] MrLimeni: that completely depends on your interests [12:15] MrLimeni: some MOTUs have a narrow interest in just a few packages, some try to help with every QA task they can find [12:15] we have people who are interested in ruby or python or games and they work closely with the debian team counterparts [12:16] some MOTUs help with transitions, for example porting all packages that use libabc1 to libabc2, and so on [12:16] we always try to have all packages installable and buildable, that sometimes requires quite an amount of work too [12:16] do we have to fill a debian bugs or a ubuntu bugs for each ubuntu or debian counterpart ? [12:16] if you decide to take care of a certain package or a class of packages, you are responsible for keeping the package in a good shape: [12:16] - take care of bug reports and fix them or forward them upstream [12:17] or is this a good idea to work only in one place, and then get the result synced ? [12:17] - keep the package updated [12:17] - talk to the debian maintainer, etc [12:17] MrLimeni: I hope that helps to answer the question [12:17] effie_jayx: thanks for the kind words :) [12:17] ok, now i have some ideas [12:17] great [12:17] tnx [12:17] proppy: some people decide to talk to the debian teams in IRC, some send emails to mailing lists, some file bug reports [12:18] there's a variety of ways to get involved with each other [12:18] proppy: I personally think that during merging it's a good idea to forward changes upstream [12:19] at the end of the release cycle things are usually too hectic to get everything included upstream [12:19] dholbach: i.e yesterday I fill a new upstream version bug for debian, I don't know if it a good practice to also fill one on launchpad and to link the debbugs ?, or just to ask for a sync when it's one on the debian part ? [12:19] * norsetto thinks it is a VERY good idea during merging to forward changes upstream [12:19] but close bonds between maintainers and teams are very important, it helps to not duplicate work [12:19] proppy: it might depend on how active the debian maintainer is [12:20] proppy: if you're under the impression that the new version is important and it does not happen, you can always file a bug in ubuntu or do it yourself [12:20] * norsetto upstream meaning especially debian [12:20] dholbach: but filling two bugs, one on ubuntu and one on debian, could lead to duplicate work too, due to lack of coordination ? [12:20] proppy: the good thing is that the bug status in LP is updated automatically [12:20] so we know if the fix has landed in debian [12:20] welcome ntovar [12:20] I mean in the hypothetical case that there is lack of coordination on a specific issue, I'm not speaking in general team [12:20] ok [12:21] we can't rule out that some duplication happens [12:21] that's why close ties are important [12:21] any more questions? [12:21] I noticed that only a few of you have started working with packaging tools yet [12:21] one page that's worth reading is http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted [12:21] what about ITP versus Needs-packaging ? [12:22] is it a good pratice to fill both ? [12:22] when working on a new package [12:22] it references all the important steps you need to go through [12:22] dholbach, how can we help for the next release? I have some minor experience with pbuilder and I can say I know my motu ABC [12:22] proppy: we have no policy telling you to file an ITP or RFC [12:22] ITP in Debian means "Intent to Package", so you should only file it if you REALLY want to maintain the package in debian [12:23] sorry, I meant RFP above [12:23] RFP means "Request For Package" [12:23] dholbach: but what is the usage (not the policy) ? [12:24] something I used to do, when I packaged a new piece of software, for example when I packaged 'glom': follow up on the debian bug report saying "please package glom", I said "I packaged it for Ubuntu, grab the source package at http..." [12:24] effie_jayx: nice, there are LOTS of things you can do [12:25] we link lots of interesting tasks on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO [12:25] dholbach: I was just worried if I should fill an itp for the needs-packaging bugs I'm working on [12:25] dholbach: thanks for the explanation :) [12:25] 'bitesize' bugs for example are bugs that are suited for new contributors, because they're likely to be easy [12:25] 'packaging' bugs refer to bugs that are not in the source code of the package, but in the packaging itself and can be easy [12:25] dholbach, Could I comment on something? [12:26] we have 'upgrade' bugs, where users request new upstream versions of a package, this can be easy too, if you follow the 'update a package' recipe on http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Recipes [12:26] effie_jayx: sure [12:27] dholbach, One of the most difficult things about helping out doing MOTU work is that people like you help out alot ... but people in the channel are at times busy building stuff for ubuntu and have little time to check your stuff. People in #ubuntu-motu are AWESOM but they lack the time for doing MOTU stuff. we would need more people just there to mentor little grasshoppers like us [12:27] also we have the huge list of 'needs-packaging' bugs, where users request new software to finally get packaged [12:28] effie_jayx: you can always drop a mail to ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com [12:28] dholbach, aha... that I didn't know :D [12:28] effie_jayx: also ask norsetto about the mentor process he's currently trying to improve - it's not set in stone yet, but we're trying to work out mentoring [12:28] it's a tough one because we have limited resources [12:29] dholbach, yes... and lot's to do... MOTUS have lots to do [12:29] your best bets are #ubuntu-motu, ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com for general questions [12:29] what about #ubuntu-mentors ? [12:29] and if you want to get your package or patch reviewed: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/NewPackages [12:30] proppy: I wouldn't like to open yet another IRC channel, but if you think it makes sense, you could discuss the idea on ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com [12:30] proppy: well, the idea is that we whould really not separate metnoring from the normal process flow [12:30] good point norsetto [12:31] we want people to go through the regular process as quickly as possible... if they need help to get started, that's fine, but things like the sponsorship process (getting packages reviewed and uploaded by somebody who's in the MOTU team already) are a must of everybody to go through [12:31] * Hobbsee is also going to have a whole stack of bitesize bugs, soon, too. [12:31] Hobbsee: file / tag those bugs? or fix them yourself? [12:31] * norsetto knows that Hobbsee is very good at bitesizing [12:31] file [12:32] NICE [12:32] * dholbach hugs Hobbsee [12:32] they'll be good for new people to fix :) [12:32] everybody give Hobbsee a hug :) [12:32] but that will be after the merge season [12:32] (after the autosync stops) [12:32] MOTU is also a lot about hugging... :) [12:32] * proppy nugs Hobbsee [12:32] oups [12:32] * Hobbsee hugs proppy back :) [12:32] :-) [12:32] * effie_jayx hugs Hobbsee [12:33] :) [12:33] referenced from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted [12:33] you will find http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Recipes (tutorials how to play with the tools we use every day) [12:34] and also http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide - which I'm currently working on, so if you have any advice, question or problem, please let me know [12:34] did anybody bring a packaging problem along today? [12:34] dholbach, a note on the debdiff wiki would be good [12:34] can we solve a practical problem today? :) [12:34] dholbach, let me give you link [12:35] * txwikinge2 hugs Hobbsee [12:35] effie_jayx: ok :) [12:35] I was drowning on papercup [12:35] yeah. everyone can do a problem of my optoelectronics paper tomorrow. thanks for offering :) [12:35] * dholbach sees the new MOTU motto already: "MOTU - we solve ALL your problems!" [12:35] :D [12:35] :) [12:36] dholbach, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Recipes/Debdiff <--- after I generate the debdiff there is a very scary message saying the public key cannot be berified [12:36] dholbach: "what's the difference bewteen all the build systems, and all the patch systems? do i care? which one should i use? which one is "better"?" [12:36] so I thought there must be something wrong with my gpg key [12:36] dholbach: how's that for a question? :) [12:36] effie_jayx: did you add a changelog entry? [12:37] dholbach, I did... one that matches my key [12:37] effie_jayx: is exactly that name and email address on your gpg key? [12:37] dholbach: no, thats becuase of the key used to sign the original .dsc [12:37] dholbach, yes [12:37] norsetto: ahhh, right [12:37] norsetto, right [12:37] good point [12:37] so that was the problem [12:37] effie_jayx: you dont sign debdiffs :) [12:37] Hobbsee, for one ... that's true [12:37] they'd never apply, if you did. they're just special forms of patches. [12:37] effie_jayx: ok, we can add a note explaining to ignore that message [12:38] Hobbsee: good question [12:38] Hobbsee, but mee as a MOTU-noob... It scared me... [12:38] effie_jayx: fair enough :) [12:38] in Debian and Ubuntu packaging there's a variety of build and patch systems [12:38] dholbach: oh, and how do i tell the different build systems apart? why are some debian/rules files so much shorter than others? [12:38] most packages make use of debhelper in debian/rules [12:39] debhelper contains a bunch of scripts to make a maintainer's life easier [12:39] a simple example is dh_desktop , which will add a postinst and prerm to the package that will update the desktop file database [12:40] it safes a lot of hassle and copy/paste-ing existing code [12:40] CDBS is used quite heavily by GNOME and KDE packages for example [12:40] which simplifies debian/rules (which is the Makefile to build the package) even further [12:40] dholbach: do I need to understand dh_* call when working on a package, or should I just blind copying them form dh_make, and read the man when needed ? [12:41] CDBS contains Makefile snippets, that are 'controlled' by variables you can set [12:41] proppy: it's in your interest to know them - in most cases copy/paste-ing might work for you or might not, you'll be only able to fix issues, if you know what the tools are for [12:42] I generally encourage to work on existing packages and do only small modifications [12:42] which brings me to Hobbsee's other question: "do I need to care?" [12:42] the answer is: it depends [12:42] if you only package your own software and package it "your way", you don't need to care [12:42] dholbach: what about the order of dh_* call is it documented somewhere, or should I trust and copy that from existing package ? === effie_jayx is now known as man [12:43] but if work on a variety of packages and fix a variety of bugs, as most MOTUs do, you will need to learn the individual patch/build systems that are used by the packages === man is now known as effie_jayx [12:43] and if you ever have to install yada, RUN AWAY!!! [12:43] proppy: the debian policy should contain information about that [12:43] death to all yada! [12:43] hehehe [12:44] we have pretty good documentation of all patch systems in the packaging guide [12:44] any more questions? [12:44] dholbach: please add that to the faq, btw [12:45] Hobbsee: it is already there: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/FAQ [12:45] "I need to fix a bug in the upstream provided source, modify the source or add a patch?" [12:45] that's different. [12:45] . o O { I'm the wiki slave... :-) } [12:46] Hobbsee: what do you think should be in the FAQ then? [12:46] dholbach: the stuff about what the differences are betwen the build systems, and patch systems, and if you ened to care. [12:46] * Hobbsee queries [12:47] Hobbsee: OK, added a note in my todo list [12:47] dholbach: (both groups of questions need to be there) [12:48] right, thanks for the suggestion [12:48] any more questions? who of you is going to get started with the MOTU process next? [12:48] any ideas what you'll be working on or get started with? [12:48] dholbach: I have uploaded two new pacakges to revu.. .what do I do now? [12:49] txwikinge2: NEW packages? [12:49] well.. packages not existing in ubuntu yet [12:49] (where NEW == new to ubuntu) [12:49] as opposed to packages already there, but an older version [12:50] * norsetto notes that we have regular REVU days on every monday now [12:50] txwikinge2: does the package in Ubuntu exist already? [12:50] no [12:50] right [12:51] what you can do is: [12:51] - ask for a review in #ubuntu-motu [12:51] - ask on ubuntu-motu-mentors@ [12:51] - file a bugs, mark it as 'fix committed' and tag as 'needs-packaging' - that way it will show up on http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring [12:51] other than that, as norsetto noted we have weekly REVU days [12:51] ok [12:52] great [12:52] txwikinge2: let me know if you should still get no review of it [12:52] ok [12:52] for those of you interested in becoming a MOTU: any ideas what you'll be working on or get started with? [12:52] jono: ^ :-) [12:53] anybody else? :) [12:53] dholbach: working on NEW package as well, have working on existing bugs when I find some [12:53] I think I am going to continue to learn how to package existing stuff and then pick something [12:53] I always like to plug seb128's and lool's team: if you're interested in Desktop Stuff: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO has a LOT of stuff to get involved with [12:54] txwikinge2: having a new package in ubuntu can be a very frustrating experience, don't be discouraged easily [12:54] I think I will look at some of the bitesize stuff next [12:54] dholbach: and when norsetto ask me too [12:54] would be fun to contribute to a team [12:54] dholbach: am i better off to put new packages into ubuntu, or fix bugs in current packages? does it make any difference, in getting MOTU? [12:54] the main thing I need to learn right now is how packaging works :P [12:54] norsetto: Don't worry.. I won't .. I just don't want to get on peep's nerves either :) [12:55] Hobbsee: to become a MOTU it's important that we see so many good contributions (in whatever form) to Ubuntu, that we trust you and see that you do good work [12:55] the rest is your decision and your interest [12:55] sky's the limit [12:55] could I package audio files for ubuntu? [12:55] dholbach: so the suggestion would be to go with bugfixes, as the new packages take so long? [12:56] like another example-content [12:56] for the login sound? [12:56] Hobbsee: if you want some new package included in ubuntu really badly, you will have to do that :) [12:56] dholbach: yes, but if i dont care, i just want to contribute somewhere? [12:57] jono: sure, only the licensing and size is important [12:57] Hobbsee: I personally learnt a lot by fixing/modifying existing packages [12:57] dholbach: right [12:57] ok [12:57] I would not discourage people from packaging new stuff :) [12:57] we're close to the end of the session [12:58] one thing I'd like to encourage you all to do is: [12:58] - please drop me mail with your MOTU experience: complaints, praise, suggestions, etc - I'll try to help and make things better [12:59] - spread the word about MOTU: blog about it, let people know [12:59] * norsetto is not looking forward to have mike portnoy best of collection in ubuntu [12:59] - make Universe ROCK :-) [12:59] * txwikinge2 doesn't have a blog yet [12:59] any final words? :-) [12:59] ok... have a great day then! [12:59] I'd like to also point out that the MOTU are almost all volunteers - so it would be unwise to demand your stuff gets done immediately, etc. we have queues for a reason, and we don't take kindly to someone filing 50 bugs, then complaining when they arent all uploaded the next day. we have stuff to implement too. [12:59] thanks dholbach [13:00] (which also applies to reviews, etc) [13:00] we'll have another Q&A session next week - I'll announce the details ~mid next week [13:00] i'd also like to point out that you dont need to be a super-l33t coder to be a MOTU [13:00] if you want to do it, you'll be able to. sky is the limit, and all. [13:01] but we do our best to keep queues as short as possible :) [13:01] dholbach: link as usual for the log , plz ..... [13:01] and i'd also like to thank dholbach for running an excellent session. [13:01] * Hobbsee hugs dholbach [13:01] thanks a lot Hobbsee :) [13:01] * dholbach hugs y'all [13:01] thanks [13:01] * norsetto hugs dhlobach too [13:01] dhlobach, who is he? [13:02] norsetto: http://daniel.holba.ch/temp [13:02] norsetto: thanks for wiki-fying [13:03] danke dhlobach (whoever you are) [13:04] norsetto, dholbach =Daniel Holbach [13:04] dholbach, thank you [13:04] anytime... it was my pleasure :) [13:04] see you in #ubuntu-motu === proppy is now known as procurry === procurry is now known as propasta === propasta is now known as proppy === elkbuntu_ is now known as elkbuntu [20:56] hello [20:57] are you here icangoogleit [21:00] are you here icangoogleit [21:01] ruthbuzzard [21:01] hi [21:02] hey there [21:02] ok what did you want now [21:02] ok [21:02] what cpu / vid card do you have? [21:03] amd athlon 3000+ and nvidia 6200 [21:04] gotcha [21:04] nice btw ;) [21:04] using gnome - based? [21:04] yes [21:04] good. [21:05] applications > accessories > terminal [21:05] used to use xubuntu but needs xfce upgrade and ubuntu seems to be a bit faster now [21:05] mm? [21:05] ok [21:05] so its not xubuntu anymore? [21:05] yes [21:05] did you take it out and put gnome in via a reinstall or something? [21:05] clean install of ubuntu gusty [21:05] gotcha ;) [21:05] congrats btw [21:06] thanks [21:06] sudo apt-get install ccsm emerald [21:06] like gusty now hated edgy [21:06] lol [21:06] * icangoogleit loves edgy [21:06] i may still downgrade lol [21:06] shoot i might go back to lts [21:06] lol [21:06] tho then i have to compile gtkpod for my cell phone ;_; [21:07] sudo apt-get install compizconfig-settings-manager [21:07] is what that other told me to do and i did it already [21:07] er right [21:07] that one [21:07] sorry [21:07] but now install emerald [21:07] ok [21:08] [that has the shiney new themes] [21:08] got syntax [21:08] or synaptic [21:08] synaptic is fine [21:08] or sudo apt-get install emerald [21:08] package emerald though [21:08] ruthbuzzard synaptic is a front end for apt [21:09] yeah I know [21:09] ok :) [21:09] so either one is fine [21:09] * ruthbuzzard no tyring to sound cocky [21:09] oopps [21:09] I like cli better cept 4 burning and such [21:10] gotcha [21:10] for burning nothing beats k3b. [21:10] period. [21:10] have installed slackware and gentoo b4 so no scared just can't keep up with changes [21:10] its the ONLY one in nix to have verification [21:10] gotcah [21:10] in ubuntu [21:10] gotcha [21:11] ok sudo apt-get install e3merald [21:11] opps -3 [21:11] hehe [21:12] yes [21:12] ok done [21:13] emerald theme manager [21:13] or what [21:15] are you still there [21:16] sorry [21:16] yes [21:17] yeah em theme manager open that and then another terminal [21:18] ok I thought I lost you [21:18] ok [21:18] click on repositories tab [21:18] ok [21:18] look at mssg towards bottom of that tab and do in terminal [21:19] svn ls https://svn.generation.no/emeraldthemes [21:19] you need subversion in to do that [21:19] awesome themes in there [21:19] install subversion [21:20] :~$ svn ls https://svn.generation.no/emeraldthemes [21:20] The program 'svn' is currently not installed. You can install it by typing: [21:20] sudo apt-get install subversion [21:20] bash: svn: command not found [21:20] yes? [21:20] sudo apt-get install subversion [21:20] :) [21:20] ok [21:21] just don't want to mess up X [21:21] sorry [21:21] no trippin :) [21:22] cool [21:22] permanently [21:23] ok accepted permanently now what [21:23] great [21:24] now look in the themes for emerald and there are lots of them [21:24] ok great now alt+f2 [21:24] in run box: ccsm [21:24] no themes [21:24] no themes in ccsm [21:24] now click cube-rotate [21:25] and accept that you have to turn on cube and turn off some other plugin [21:25]