[02:07] <Hobbsee> mhb: sorry, i suck.  been busy.
[02:15] <Jucato> don't be too hard on yourself :)
[02:15]  * Jucato sucks and he isn't even busy :)
[02:20] <claydoh> sorry none of you suck!
[02:20] <claydoh> I do cuz I am too lazy to learn new stuff ;)
[02:23] <bddebian> I've been "learning" for several years now and I still suck.. :-)
[02:24] <Jucato> I've not been learning, which makes me suck more :)
[02:33] <claydoh> I never startted so my suckage rules all
[02:33]  * claydoh loves yall, even if you think you suck which you don't
[02:34] <Jucato> hahah :)
[05:57] <nixternal> nice, Edubuntu is looking at a fairly large rollout now
[06:00] <Jucato> oooh he's here!! :)
[06:01]  * Jucato is almost finished drawing up a wiki page for the imaginary meeting
[06:02] <nixternal> lol
[06:02] <nixternal> here today, gone tomorrow
[06:03] <Jucato> you? or the meeting? :)
[06:03] <Jucato> (which was never here today...)
[06:03] <Jucato> boy, even in wikis I can still rant!
[06:04] <nixternal> I am tired of ranting...it is like they go unheard anyways
[06:05] <crimsun> yep, that's why most people blog!
[06:05]  * Jucato blonts...
[06:06] <Jucato> blog + rant...
[06:06] <crimsun> "I'm more emo than you."
[06:06] <nixternal> haha
[06:07] <Jucato> there! done!
[06:07] <Jucato> hm. saving is taking longer than previewing :)
[06:08] <Jucato> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyProposals
[06:18] <nixternal> wo0t...on monday, our local frys electronics will sell PC-BSD systems with KDE!
[06:19] <nixternal> and everyone in the US knows that frys is HUGE!
[06:19] <Jucato> yay!
[06:19] <Jucato> but PC-BSD? O.o
[06:19] <Jucato> oh well, as long as it's KDE!!
[06:19] <nixternal> ya, odd choice, but it will be KDE!
[06:20] <nixternal> frys had the choice I guess with the green pc or the bsd one
[06:20] <Jucato> oh definitely good he chose the KDE one :)
[06:20] <nixternal> that it is
[06:21] <Jucato> I still can't seem to believe that someone deployed systems using E... must have been a big boost for the E folks
[06:21] <nixternal> we were in there the other day, a couple of the LUG guys, and they manager knows us because after every meeting, we crash the place
[06:21] <nixternal> so we got to test drive a couple of *nix boxes they were looking at
[06:21] <Jucato> s/crash/trash/ ?
[06:22] <nixternal> we get there at about 5pm every sunday...that is when they put out all of the super bargain stuff
[06:22] <nixternal> that is how I bought those linspire desktops for $125 each
[06:22] <nixternal> Host '3LockBox', running Linux 2.6.22-14-generic - Cpu0: AMD Athlon 2200 MHz; Up: 3d+7:19; Users: 1; Load: 0.00; Free: [Mem: 386/941 Mio] [Swap: 863/863 Mio] [/: 11381/14084 Mio] [/boot: 93/122 Mio] [/home: 37369/41301 Mio] [/media/maxtor: 142409/150230 Mio]; Vpenis: 93.4 cm;
[06:22] <nixternal> that is what I got for $125
[06:22] <Jucato> wow
[06:23] <nixternal> I upgraded the ram and added an external drive
[06:23] <nixternal> only came with 512mb of ram and a 60gb drive I think..but still...for $125 that is pretty good
[06:23] <nixternal> and one came with a super large 15" crt :p
[06:23] <Jucato> wow
[06:23] <Jucato> really wow
[06:26] <nixternal> did you hear that?
[06:26] <nixternal> my pillow is calling my name
[06:26] <nixternal> k'nite :)
[06:26] <Jucato> knight! :)
[10:07] <jpatrick> hello Knightlust
[10:12] <Knightlust> hi jpatrick
[10:26] <Tm_T> jpatrick: nice english :(
[10:27] <jpatrick> Tm_T: ?
[10:27] <Tm_T> "wanna" in topic
[10:27] <jpatrick> :P
[10:27] <Tm_T> I'd replace it with "want to" or "like to"
[10:28] <Tm_T> it's bit fussy for some people now
[10:28] <jpatrick> there :)
[10:28] <Tm_T> thanks :)
[11:33] <GNUton> hi!
[12:03] <ubunturos> since, konqueror in Kubuntu doesn't have the "window" menu, the KDE Quickstart guide will have to be modified with shortcuts to that terminal emulator
[12:05] <ubunturos> in Kubuntu
[12:05] <ubunturos> http://docs.kde.org/development/en/kdebase/quickstart/want-command-line-back.html - this page
[12:06] <ubunturos> anybody around?
[13:18] <jpatrick> Hobbsee: we need because... http://ihosted.info/~jpatrick/kubuntu-leaflet-es.png
[13:18] <jpatrick> it doesn't end up very pretty
[13:18] <Hobbsee> hah. nasty.
[13:37] <mhb> hi folks
[13:38] <jpatrick> hi mhb
[13:40] <mhb> anything new & fresh around?
[13:47]  * ryanakca wonders if there will be a K4B
[13:47] <ryanakca> or... KIVB ... since they use roman numerals in their logo
[13:47]  * ryanakca waves to mhb
[13:48] <mhb> I guess there will be, but not soon
[13:49] <mhb> ryanakca: have you asked Riddell for his assistance?
[14:37] <ryanakca> Riddell: ping, could you please poke/prod/set Hobbsee and her PSOD loose on the canonical people who are "in charge" of setting up drupal for kubuntu.org? Not that there's a big rush, but the sooner it's up, the better, imho :)
[14:37] <ryanakca> mhb: done :)
[14:37] <Hobbsee> ?
[14:37] <Hobbsee> what influence do you think i have?
[14:37] <ryanakca> lots?
[14:37] <Hobbsee> mhb: thinking early european morning
[14:39]  * ryanakca yawns and burns a copy of Ubuntu Studio for his school's student radio...
[14:52] <fifoo> Hi
[14:52] <fifoo> Is Jonathan Patrick Davies around?
[14:53] <ryanakca> jpatrick: would that be you ^^ ?
[14:54] <jpatrick> yep
[14:55] <fifoo> Hi
[14:55] <fifoo> I'm Laurent
[14:55] <fifoo> You contacted me by email a while ago
[14:55] <jpatrick> ah hello there! :D
[14:55] <fifoo> and told me to come and chat to you here
[14:55] <fifoo> to see how I can get involved :)
[14:55] <jpatrick> well, us :)
[14:55] <Jucato> oooh new slave :)
[14:56] <Jucato> er I meant, contributor :)
[14:56] <fifoo> ;-)
[14:56] <jpatrick> well, what would you like to help out with?
[14:57] <fifoo> I'm quite interesting in coding (bugfixing I imagine now that the release is getting closer)
[14:57] <fifoo> I do C++
[14:58] <jpatrick> prehaps you could help Tonio_ with kio-apt?
[15:00] <Jucato> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu and https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyCatchup
[15:00] <fifoo> sure
[15:02] <jpatrick> fifoo: we have until Feb 14th for new stuff, plenty of time :)
[15:04] <fifoo> cool! :)
[15:05] <Jucato> !schedule
[15:05] <ubotu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
[15:05] <Jucato> er.. hm...
[15:06] <Jucato> fifoo: just take note of the freezes: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyReleaseSchedule
[15:06] <Jucato> but yeah we've got time... :)
[15:07] <fifoo> Hey Tonio_, any way I could help?
[15:10] <jpatrick> fifoo: apt-get source kio-apt from Hardy and I think the apt+http:// protocol has to be implemented
[15:13] <Tm_T> umm who were our default settings guy?
[15:13] <jpatrick> Tm_T: Tonio_ :) (I think)
[15:13] <Tm_T> I thought too
[15:14] <Jucato> Tonio_ or Riddell perhaps
[15:14] <Tm_T> Tonio_: hi, I wonder if we should reconsider klipper settings
[15:23] <Tm_T> Tonio_: about saving clipboard contents on exit, not perhaps desired default
[15:26] <mhb> Jucato: hey, you live almost next to Hobbsee, would you mind somehow forcing her to tell us a date/time when she can get to a meeting? Thanks.
[15:26] <mhb> Jucato: I'm kind of angry over how it gets more and more delayed
[15:26] <Jucato> I'll ask her tomorrow if that's ok
[15:27] <jpatrick> mhb: make meetings on weekends so we can all go is what I say
[15:27] <Jucato> afaik the next weekend will be good as long as it's still weekend for us too. she has exams on monday
[15:27] <Jucato> (Nov 26 monday)
[15:27] <mhb> jpatrick: yes, I tried, yet she couldn't find an hour when she could come...
[15:28] <mhb> jpatrick: still, that's the plan
[15:28] <mhb> I wanted to have it this week, but it can be done in 7 days, too
[15:28] <jpatrick> or at least something I added to the meeting page :P
[15:28] <mhb> Jucato: thanks
[15:28] <jpatrick> and every 2 weeks or something
[15:29]  * Jucato suggests monthly
[15:29] <jpatrick> too long
[15:30] <mhb> Jucato: I still think D3lphin works quite well for me...
[15:30] <mhb> Jucato: I agree on strigi, though ... never like the KDE3 frontend and the CPU consuming
[15:31] <Jucato> mhb: the issue I'm raising about D3lphin is the practicality of supporting it in an LTS, since it is unmaintained it seems and quite a number of bugs
[15:32] <Jucato> as for the fact that it works for you, it can easily be countered by "it doesn't work for X number of users" too... but that's not going to help
[15:32] <Tm_T> I won't use D3lphin, that's all I'm going to say
[15:32] <mhb> Tm_T: You don't have to, do you?
[15:33] <Tm_T> no, I don't, actually, never really did use either
[15:33] <Jucato> the fact is that D3lphin is loved and disliked equally. there's no statistic that can reliably prove which side is the majority.
[15:33] <mhb> Jucato: you are right, if it's too buggy, we should decide on it
[15:33] <Jucato> he doesn't have to. but remember that we're putting it up front as *our* default file manager. that alone is a big factor
[15:33]  * mhb hasn't seen the bug reports yet
[15:34] <Tm_T> Jucato: I wouldn't say it is "our default" because I just ignore defaults when I think my usage
[15:34] <Tm_T> I'm not in our target
[15:34] <Jucato> ark integration, other service menus, d3lphin not opening folders with #, funky status resizing bar, funky resizing info panel when splitting the window
[15:35] <Tm_T> sounds fun
[15:35] <Jucato> our default = officially Kubuntu's default.
[15:35] <Tm_T> true
[15:35] <Tm_T> if I had to choose, definately Konqueror
[15:36] <Tm_T> it's real powertool
[15:36] <Jucato> and the fact that hardy will be LTS, we have to support it for at least 3 years on the desktop
[15:36] <Tm_T> yup
[15:36] <Tm_T> that alone screams to me "Konqueror ftw!"
[15:36] <Jucato> I have no issues about d3lphin remaining if we're really intent on doing an Adept on it...
[15:37] <mhb> Jucato: well LTS is not really an argument for Konqueror or against Konqueror, seeing as the D3lphin haters are quite loud, I don't think there will be more serious bugs other than they reported
[15:37] <Jucato> er.. remaining as the default... I'm amenable to having it still installed for "backward compatibility"
[15:37] <mhb> true, we *should* fix them
[15:38] <Jucato> mhb: I guess my point is, given the meager human resources that we already have, we will most likely end up maintaing D3lphin in becoming the de facto upstream, sort of like what's practically happening to Adept
[15:38] <Jucato> but I guess since we've been able to pull that off w/ Adept, we can probably do it with D3lphin as well...*shrugs*
[15:38] <Tm_T> off ->
[15:38] <Jucato> <- on
[15:39] <mhb> well, it's a question on Riddell and Tonio_ mainly
[15:40] <mhb> those two are most likely to do D3lphin fixes, if anyone
[15:40] <Jucato> on Riddell mainly now. unless Tonio_ changed his mind. last time I think he was thinking twice about D3lphin
[15:44] <mhb> Jucato: truth is, some people (in my opinion unjustly) sharply criticised Kubuntu and JR for including D3lphin and Strigi, removing them might be a show of weakness, or it may spark more Kubuntu criticism, especially from other distro's fans
[15:45]  * Jucato puts forward the hidden-root and mediat:/ to /media changes and reversions
[15:45] <mhb> Jucato: we also must take into account the "silent" part of the community ... it's the same as in our country, extremists are quite loud, but that doesn't mean the whole country agrees with them
 the fact is that D3lphin is loved and disliked equally. there's no statistic that can reliably prove which side is the majority.
[15:45] <mhb> indeed
[15:46] <Jucato> which is why I'm not putting that forward as the mean reason for reconsideration
[15:46] <mhb> I very much liked the decision of hiding root and stuff
[15:46] <Jucato> we can always say that "hey, we've decided to keep D3lphin as the default because we've fixed it and made it better."
[15:46] <mhb> too bad it got reconsidered
[15:47] <Jucato> I like the idea/purpose behind the hidden root thing, but not the implementation
[15:53] <mhb> if stars are aligned, I will have a patch for Adept skipping the silly welcome screen later today
[15:53] <mhb> updater
[15:53] <Jucato> yay
[15:53] <Jucato> (I guess)
[15:53] <mhb> hmm, someone beat me to it
[15:54] <mhb> damn you Tonio_ :o)
[15:55] <Jucato> heh
[15:56] <mhb> hmm
[15:56] <mhb> what should I do then
[15:56] <mhb> perhaps a nicer icon for the Adept updater
[15:56] <mhb> I always disliked the "Warning" icon there
[15:57] <mhb> and the package is kind of blurred
[15:57]  * ryanakca nods ;)
[15:57] <ryanakca> mhb: replace it by the one used by Katapult...
[15:58] <ryanakca> (cd in a box)... sure, you'll have to tinker with pixels to get it down to kmenu/system tray size... but, it would look nicer :)
[15:58] <mhb> ryanakca: name?
[15:59] <ryanakca> mhb: of the icon? unsure... I can try to find it though... probably under /usr/share/icons/something
[15:59] <mhb> ooh, you mean the Adept Manager package
[15:59] <mhb> okay, let's get tweaking
[16:00] <nixternal> mornin'
[16:00] <mhb> hey nixternal
[16:01] <Jucato> yo nixternal
[16:01] <jpatrick> mhb: it's a kpassivebox, but I think you know that..
[16:03] <ryanakca> mhb: hmm *twiddles*
[16:04] <ryanakca> mhb: /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/apps/adept_manager.svgz is the svg
[16:06] <ryanakca> /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/adept_manager.png is one of the pngs... substitute 32x32 by 64x64, 48x48, 22x22, 16x16, etc for various sizes. So, it looks like you just need to adjust the kmenu entry or something of the sort
[16:06] <ryanakca> there's also _updater.png and _installer.png / .svg
[16:09] <mhb> hmm, svg
[16:10] <mhb> ryanakca: thanks a lot
[16:12] <ryanakca> mhb: :)
[16:14] <ryanakca> mhb: ok... looks like KMenu is already setup to use the nice icon... so, basically, iirc, all you have to do is look in the adept updater sources for the line that points to the icon and replace that filename by  /usr/share/icons/hicolor/correctxsize/apps/adept_updater.png
[16:17] <mhb> ryanakca: are you sure you know which icon I mean? The notification one
[16:17] <mhb> the one with the red warning
[16:34] <ryanakca> mhb: Umm... I'm guessing your talking about this one: http://blog.ryanak.ca/adept.png
[16:34] <ryanakca> (sorry about the crappy screenshot)
[16:36] <mhb> yeah
[16:38] <mhb> ryanakca: attempt 1
[16:41] <mhb> http://mhb.ath.cx/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/updater-icon.png
[16:41] <mhb> ryanakca: ^^ check it out
[16:43] <ryanakca> mhb: looks great :D
[16:43]  * ryanakca => lunch
[16:46] <mhb> comments from everyone on the subject welcome
[16:47] <mhb> especially "blonters" like Jucato (that word is so strange sounding)
[16:47] <Jucato> and yet so catchy :)
[16:48] <Jucato> I find it better than previous icon, although I'm not sure if the new overlay is distinguishable enough...
[16:48] <Jucato> (what's the image metaphor for "update" anyway?)
[16:48] <mhb> not sure either
[16:48] <mhb> I just reused an Oxygen symbol for "down" because they have SVGs, unlike Crystal
[16:49] <Jucato> which is puzzling, since the real name of the icon set is "Crystal SVG" :)
[16:49] <mhb> yeah
[16:49] <mhb> that guy never released any SVGs, I guess
[16:49] <mhb> even the Crystal Something he did recently
[16:50] <jpatrick> Project
[16:50] <Jucato> bleh everaldo :)
[16:50]  * Jucato likes the "globe" icons in Crystal Project though.
[16:50] <mhb> Crystal Project, Crystal Fusion, CrystalKit ... who knows?
[16:50] <nixternal> bah everaldo is more like it
[16:51] <nixternal> he makes nice icons, but never releases the source, which is a license violation, and he doesn't attach a license at all to his tarballs either
[16:51] <nixternal> then to top it off, his icon themes will switch the nice konqi logo to a freakin' linspire logo
[16:51] <jpatrick> haha
[16:51] <Jucato> bah, bleh. same thing... I had my tongue out though :P
[16:52] <jpatrick> nixternal: several k packages awaiting your masterness on revu
[16:52] <mhb> Jucato: we have a metaphor for "restart", not the same as update, though
[16:52] <nixternal> and a) he won't fix the logo issue, b) he won't attach a license, and c) he will not provide the svg's...so because of that, we are unable to package the icons...and believe me, Riddell, Hobbsee, and myself have tried talking to him...
[16:52] <mhb> and I tried to avoid it as we use the same icon for "Your computer needs to restart"
[16:52] <nixternal> jpatrick: I will take a look in a sec
[16:52] <mhb> "down" as in "download updates" seems sensible
[16:52] <nixternal> updating my kde4 build so I can do some krushing today
[16:52] <jpatrick> nixternal: they're all near the top
[16:52] <nixternal> groovy
[16:52] <Jucato> mhb: perhaps a bit bigger maybe?
[16:53] <Jucato> mhb: the down arrow I mean...
[16:56] <CPrgmSwR2> Is there a way to get the latest version of soprano
[16:56] <CPrgmSwR2> CMake Error: Soprano version 1.96.0 is too old. Please install 1.97.1 or newer
[16:56] <CPrgmSwR2> I get this error on kubuntu
[16:59] <Tonio_> hi
[16:59] <Tonio_> mhb: about d3lphin
[16:59] <Jucato> hi Tonio_
[16:59] <Tonio_> there is no problem doing something wrong, but it is a problem not to fix the issue
[16:59] <Tonio_> imho, d3lphin should be installed, but obviosly not associated to the system
[17:00] <Tonio_> especially since we don't have a graphical way to switch back
[17:00] <Tonio_> changing inode/directory mimetype association is just nasty for the user
[17:00] <Tonio_> about strigi, same problem, it doesn't work and fucks up (sorry) the cpu
[17:00] <nixternal> CPrgmSwR2: http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/soprano/  <- you can try the soprano from there, but last I tried it didn't work..so I ended up building soprano from kdesupport and that worked
[17:00] <Tonio_> with strigi my battery life is about 30 minutes
[17:00] <Tonio_> that's just a shame
[17:01] <nixternal> same here
[17:01] <Tonio_> mhb: if I had to vote, and especially since hardy will be lts release, means use by companies, I'd remove them
[17:01] <nosrednaekim> Lure: hey, any chance you vould put my wattmeter in hardy's version of guidance-power-manager?
[17:01] <nixternal> Tonio_: +1 billion :)
[17:02] <Tonio_> nixternal: is there a meeting toonight ?
[17:02] <nixternal> dunno
[17:02] <Tonio_> I might not be there unfortunatelly, but I'd like to rediscuss this in the next meeting
[17:02] <Lure> nosrednaekim: it should go to kde svn first, then it will be picked up from there
[17:02] <Tonio_> doing nothing is bad
[17:02] <nosrednaekim> Lure: who should I contact about that? its a two line patch.
[17:02]  * Jucato has put that in https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyProposals
[17:02] <Tonio_> as I said I see no problem is doing wrong things, a lot of people criticised systemsettings at the begining
[17:03] <Lure> nosrednaekim: just send it to me and I can commit
[17:03] <Tonio_> but there is no chance to make dolphin ans strigi stable on kde3
[17:03] <nosrednaekim> Lure: ok.
[17:03] <Tonio_> I really prefer a rollback to something that works
[17:03] <Jucato> (and they still criticize kss... and will continue to do so in KDE4 :P)
[17:03] <Tonio_> I don't like beagle, but kerry is really a better solution to strigi on kde3, and konqueror should stay the default, that's my point
[17:04] <Tonio_> I'm not proud of this since I am the guy who proposed dolphin
[17:04] <Jucato> you were?!?!
[17:04] <Tonio_> but I must say that I was wrong
[17:04] <Tonio_> Jucato: yep
[17:04]  * Jucato gets the torches and pitchforks
[17:04] <Jucato> :P
[17:04] <Tonio_> I made the suggestion, then we gave an attempt
[17:04] <Tonio_> I even am the guy who packaged d3lphin ;)
[17:05] <Tonio_> but I must say that that was a bad idea !
[17:05] <Jucato> Tonio_: there's the added damage to the real Dolphin's reputation resulting from the confusion (seele's blog post)
[17:05] <Tonio_> so yes, we have to consider what is better for an lts, and definately konqueror is
[17:05] <nosrednaekim> kde4's dolphin rocks..
[17:05] <CPrgmSwR2> nixternal: once kde4.0 the final release is tagged, will the importance of getting those packages out go up?
[17:05] <Tonio_> Jucato: true, that's my biggest concern for now
[17:06] <Tonio_> Jucato: but the idea was nice at the begining, make the transition to kde3 easy by including some of the changes to kde3
[17:06] <Tonio_> the idea was nice, the result is just bad
[17:06] <Tonio_> I even would suggest a gutsy update to rollback to konqueror by default
[17:06] <Jucato> we have good ideas.. sometimes the implementation just doesn't work out (hidden-root anyone?)
[17:06] <Jucato> (and media:/ to /media)
[17:06] <nosrednaekim> Jucato: hey... I like /media
[17:06] <Tonio_> media:/ to /media was a super idea
[17:07] <Tonio_> we couldn't guess it would had more problem than it resolved
[17:07] <Jucato> nosrednaekim:  like I said, great ideas, but implementations fall short
[17:07] <nixternal> CPrgmSwR2: I hope so
[17:07] <Tonio_> but as I said, kubuntu has ALWAYS experimented new things
[17:07] <nosrednaekim> Jucato: never had a problem with /media.
[17:07] <Tonio_> some were succesfull, as for example the konqueror simplification
[17:07] <Tonio_> kde4 konqueror is almost like our konqueror now
[17:07] <Jucato> nosrednaekim: apparently everyone else had :)
[17:07] <Tonio_> we influented this, and we can be proud of this
[17:07] <nixternal> Tonio_: I like the experimentation of Kubuntu, but we should at the least have pulled strigi
[17:07] <Jucato> except the menus are still complete :P
[17:08] <nosrednaekim> Tonio_: and system settings too.
[17:08] <Tonio_> but we cannot stay an experimenting distro all the time
[17:08] <CPrgmSwR2> nixternal: I have still having issues install kde from svn
[17:08] <Tonio_> nosrednaekim: yeah, and lots of other things
[17:08] <Jucato> specially on an LTS!
[17:08] <Tonio_> so we can be proud of experimenting things as we do
[17:08] <CPrgmSwR2> I installed kdesupport but I still get --> CMake Error: Soprano version 1.96.0 is too old. Please install 1.97.1 or newer
[17:08] <nixternal> CPrgmSwR2: then you need to svn co the kdesupport/soprano folder and then build it
[17:08] <CPrgmSwR2> I did
[17:08] <Tonio_> we sa in french :
[17:08] <Tonio_> "il n'y a que quand on ne fait rien qu'on ne fait pas de conneries !"
[17:09] <Jucato> translation?
[17:09] <nixternal> we say in english:
[17:09] <nixternal> "WHAT?" :p
[17:09] <Jucato> no pain no gain? no guts no glory?
[17:09] <Tonio_> means "the only way of not doing bullshits is just doing nothing!"
[17:09] <Jucato> or just wtf?
[17:09] <Jucato> aaaah
[17:09] <CPrgmSwR2> nixternal: I installed the entire kdesupport
[17:09] <Jucato> hahah
[17:09] <Tonio_> so we have to experiment :)
[17:09] <nixternal> hrmm
[17:09] <nixternal> CPrgmSwR2: is it dying on kdebase?
[17:09] <mhb> why did we decide to remove the /.hidden file?
[17:09] <Tonio_> expect we must admit our errors and rollback if necessary
[17:09] <mhb> and when?
[17:09] <CPrgmSwR2> nixternal: kdelibs
[17:09] <mhb> my memory is failing me
[17:09] <nixternal> hrmm
[17:09] <Tonio_> strigi isn't activated by default, but d3lphin is
[17:10] <Tonio_> so dolphin must be removed
[17:10] <nixternal> I am at the kdebase update now and it is going fine
[17:10] <Tonio_> imho of course :)
[17:10] <nixternal> I just updated kdelibs and kdepimlibs w/o any issues
[17:10] <CPrgmSwR2> I am stuck at the kdelibs module
[17:10] <Tonio_> let's rediscuss that in a meeting and vote again
[17:10] <nixternal> Tonio_: I am all for that
[17:10]  * jpatrick too
[17:10] <CPrgmSwR2> nixternal do you have soprano-dev installed too?
[17:10]  * nixternal would like to point to the meeting where we voted, note my -1 on it :)
[17:10] <nixternal> CPrgmSwR2: -dev is what you need
[17:11] <nixternal> to build with
[17:11] <CPrgmSwR2> Hmm....
[17:11] <CPrgmSwR2> I want to work on kollagame but I can't because I cannot find a good kde4 build environment
[17:11] <Jucato> Tonio_: there's a small problem about strigi even if not activated by default
[17:12] <mhb> it seems to me we're starting to be a distribution of cowards, removing features we implemented for the last release
[17:12] <Jucato> Tonio_: it's still the default action for Find Files/Folderes and searching in Konqueror
[17:12] <Tonio_> Jucato: I seem to remember that there is a meeting toonight
[17:12] <mhb>  /.hidden file was completely functional, yet someone decided to remove it
[17:12] <Tonio_> Jucato: but I can't find the confirmation
[17:12] <Tonio_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings
[17:12] <Tonio_> nothing there
[17:13] <Jucato> didn't push through
[17:13] <Tonio_> Jucato: hum true, so strigi must leave too :)
[17:13] <mhb> someone removed /media fixes so we're still stuck with the IMHO confusing two medias: media:/ and /media
[17:13] <nixternal> man, building kde4 and running pbuilder on revu items is sloooooooow
[17:13] <Jucato> mhb: I could argue that we're also being cowards if we don't accept our mistakes
[17:13] <Tonio_> mhb: I did the removal :)
[17:13] <Tonio_> mhb: nothing confusing
[17:13] <Tonio_> just rollback, as this was an error too ;)
[17:14] <mhb> well it confuses me, furthermore, now when I insert a CD and boot gutsy, it won't find it
[17:14] <mhb> never happened with feisty
[17:14] <fdoving> mhb: removing .hidden was needed. it was utterly useless and confusing to everyone. it also impacted everything else. for example the gtk-fileselectors.
[17:14] <Lure> mhb: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings/Minutes/2006-12-07
[17:14] <Jucato> mhb: it also tells us to be more careful in implementing new stuff, that we test it as much as we can and gather as much useful/sensible/constructive user feedback as possible
[17:16] <mhb> fdoving: it was a bold step forward in usability, if you ask me. From the (user) discussions I've read, I've gained the feeling that people seem to agree with that opinion.
[17:17] <mhb> as with all bold steps, it was controversial, but the users seemed more happy than say the current strigi
[17:17] <Tonio_> not to everyone : I proposed to remove dolphin BEFORE gutsy was released
[17:17] <Tonio_> I just suggested to test it during the dev cycle
[17:17]  * Jucato wonders where mhb gets his user feedback data
[17:17] <Tonio_> but it looks like I couldn't stop the train I started ;)
[17:18] <fdoving> mhb: there were like 50 bugreports about it. users considered it a bug, not a feature.
[17:18] <fdoving> .. many did, anyway.
[17:18] <fdoving> including me.
[17:18] <mhb> yeah, let's remove all software that has > 50 bugs.
[17:18] <jpatrick> mhb: there goes k3b
[17:18] <Jucato> and adept...
[17:20] <mhb> what I mean is okay, we're doing stuff that makes some users angry, that's understandable, look, as a development team we cannot agree on whether D3lphin was good or not, and we tend to change opinions fast
[17:20] <Tonio_> Jucato: yeah but for adept we don't have any other alternative
[17:20] <Jucato> :)
[17:21] <Tonio_> Jucato: for dolphin there is konqueror
[17:21]  * Jucato was just trying to be funny :P
[17:21] <Tonio_> that makes a hudge difference
[17:21] <mhb> but what we're doing for like 3rd time is taking a bold step, then retreating because some users or developers dislike it
[17:21] <mhb> instead of fixing bugs
[17:21] <Tonio_> and I would say that dolphin is just like systemsettings
[17:21] <Tonio_> $if kde4 was planned in 2 years, I would suggest to work on dolphin
[17:21] <Tonio_> but with kde4 commin with hardy+1 and hardy beeing lts, we have to remove it
[17:22] <mhb> or making the transition painless ... okay, not everyone liked /.hidden, let's have a graphical setting to remove it! Someone doesn't like D3lphin, he can remove it and set Konqueror as the default for all eternity with just one click!
[17:22] <Jucato> like I said hours ago, I'm fine with keeping D3lphin *IF* we're willing to support if for 3 years by ourselves.
[17:22] <Tonio_> I wouldn't mind keeping dolphin and improving it if we had time for this
[17:22] <Jucato> (that's not still considering how much damage it's doing for KDE 4)
[17:22] <fdoving> shipping d3lphin is fine, having it as default for all directories makes trouble for me.
[17:22] <Tonio_> Jucato: true
[17:23] <mhb> Jucato: are they going to reward us for the damage they've done with the KDE4 delay? Or are they going to repay us for the fact that we're stuck in a freeze for almost two years now because KDE4 takes several years?
[17:23] <Tonio_> mhb: true
[17:24] <Tonio_> kde3 isn't evolving for a long time now
[17:24]  * Jucato shrugs
[17:24] <Tonio_> damages of kubuntu to kde4 are not that big
[17:24] <mhb> we have somehow dealt with that. I'm sorry.
[17:24] <Tonio_> it delay it 10 times bigger problem
[17:24] <Tonio_> BUT, we are not supporting dolphin, nobody takes care of functionnalities and bugs
[17:24] <Tonio_> so let's remove it and stop going the wrong way
[17:25] <nosrednaekim> not to interrupt this exciting discussion, but with diff, do you put the before-modification file first or second?
[17:25] <Jucato> well I give up. I'll just say it again in the meeting once and for all
[17:25] <Jucato> nosrednaekim: diff -ruN old new
[17:25] <Jucato> or diff -ruN orig modified
[17:25] <nosrednaekim> ok.. thats what I thought
[17:26] <nosrednaekim> don't want to mess up my first diff:D
[17:26] <Tonio_> Jucato: I won't say it only once :)
[17:26] <mhb> what you are saying is "let's learn from the mistake of including D3lphin and Strigi". That's fine, but I ask: "Have we learned from the mistake of creating something, then quickly remove it in the next release?"
[17:26] <Tonio_> Jucato: I will be a PITA untill the train I started is stoped :)
[17:26] <mhb> or are we going to repeat it
[17:27] <mhb> 3rd time in a row
[17:27] <Jucato> Tonio_: I think I've already discussed it to death on my part... and I'm getting tired :/
[17:27] <Tonio_> Jucato: let's VOTE, and respect the community decision
[17:27] <Tonio_> Jucato: I have no doubt a vote will prove we're right
[17:27] <Jucato> so I'll just let the votes decide and however it turns out, I will respect it
[17:28] <Jucato> that's my plan :)
[17:28] <Tonio_> I'll have to go for diner
[17:28] <Jucato> eat well :)
[17:28] <fdoving> voting in the wrong direction usually doesn't fix problems. if we are keeping broken software someone needs to fix it.
[17:28] <mhb> with 6 people voting, I am a bit afraid it will boil down to personal preferences
[17:28] <Tonio_> if there is a meeting toonight, please consider my vote goes to remove dolphin and even strigi
[17:28] <Tonio_> if I can be there, I'll try too
[17:28] <mhb> Tonio_: surely not tonight, next week perhaps
[17:29] <mhb> Tonio_: we'll notify you, don't worry :o)
[17:29] <Tonio_> and also, when you have the confirmation of the date for the meeting, please ping me since I don't wanna miss that one
[17:29] <nosrednaekim> there is a meeting tonight? hmph
[17:29] <Tonio_> mhb: thanks :)
[17:29] <Jucato> no meeting tonight :)
[17:29] <Tonio_> nosrednaekim: I seem to remember there is...
[17:29] <mhb> nosrednaekim: no, it's not, we'll tell everyone once we set a date
[17:29] <mhb> and it will be in /topic and everywhere
[17:30] <Tonio_> nosrednaekim: I must just be confused on that point
[17:30] <Jucato> (except in my bathroom of course)
[17:30] <Tonio_> maybe it's just not a kubuntu meeting, but something else...
[17:30] <Tonio_> I have to go !!
[17:31] <Tonio_> I just cooked a "coq au vin", smells sooooooooooo good :)
[17:32] <Tonio_> I don't know if "coq au vin" is understandable for english people...
[17:32] <nosrednaekim> ok
[17:32] <jpatrick> chicken with wine?
[17:32] <nosrednaekim> chicken and wine?
[17:32] <Jucato> rooster w/ wine
[17:32] <Jucato> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coq_au_vin
[17:33] <Jucato> yum
[17:33] <nosrednaekim> just a guess
[17:33] <Jucato> er apt
[17:33] <Tonio_> jpatrick, nosrednaekim: adult male chicken, with wine based sauce :)
[17:33] <Jucato> cock (au) vine :)
[17:33] <Tonio_> probably the best french receipt ever
[17:34] <nosrednaekim> my french isn't too bad!
[17:34] <Tonio_> s/receipt/receip
[17:34] <Jucato> recipe :)
[17:34] <nosrednaekim> never actually had french... but its all latin anyway ;)
[17:34] <Tonio_> whats the english for coq ?
[17:34] <Tonio_> that not really chicken
[17:34] <nosrednaekim> rooster?
[17:34] <Jucato> rooster
[17:34] <nosrednaekim> cock?
[17:34] <Jucato> male chicken
[17:34] <Tonio_> okay
[17:34] <Tonio_> so that's rooster with wine :)
[17:34] <jpatrick> "el coq esportif"
[17:35] <fdoving> i have those shoes.
[17:35] <Tonio_> jpatrick: hahaha, "le coq sportif"
[17:35] <Tonio_> jpatrick: you weren't that far :)
[17:36] <jpatrick> Tonio_: seven years studying french... where did it all go? :(
[17:37] <Tonio_> jpatrick: we'll speak french now ;)
[17:37] <mhb> Jucato: pokey
[17:37] <Tonio_> I really have to go, have a good evening all !
[17:37] <jpatrick> I've mostly forgetten all of it
[17:37] <mhb> Jucato: so I take it you know all the bugs in D3lphin
[17:38] <jpatrick> Tonio_: au revoir
[17:38] <mhb> would you be so kind and file them in LP if they aren't there yet?
[17:39] <jpatrick> Jucato: I've found another slave
[17:39] <Jucato> do I know all the bugs? if only I did. but heavens no... I'm not endowed with Riddell-like powers. although I did mention a few already earlier
[17:39] <Jucato> and yes, I do plan on doing a bug triage week soonish
[17:39] <Jucato> jpatrick: the guy who came in earlier? :)
[17:39] <jpatrick> nop, someone else
[17:39] <Jucato> oooh
[17:40] <jpatrick> here he comes...
[17:40] <Jucato> jpatrick: that's great. exactly what we need. more slaves! )
[17:40] <mhb> Jucato: splendid, as soon as possible would be lovely
[17:40] <nosrednaekim> jpatrick: really..... how good is he at art?
[17:41] <mhb> I am going to do a little "learning from past mistakes" today
[17:43] <fdoving> Tonio_: you might want to merge my kdesudo branch into trunk and put it in hardy. it works with non-root users too, unlike the gutsy one.
[17:44] <Tonio_> fdoving: users that don't have sudo permissions ?
[17:44] <fdoving> mhb: have a look at kdesudo too then. it's also one of those.
[17:44] <Tonio_> fdoving: if you talk about the -h patch, I already merged
[17:44] <fdoving> Tonio_: no, kdesudo -u
[17:44] <Tonio_> ho you fixed it ?
[17:44] <Tonio_> fdoving: how so, that's a sudo issue....
[17:44] <fdoving> Tonio_: no. it's all about xauth.
[17:45] <Tonio_> fdoving: ah ?
[17:45] <Tonio_> fdoving: can you send me the url for the branch by email ?
[17:45] <Tonio_> I'll merge tomorrow
[17:45] <fdoving> https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~frode/kdesudo/fdoving
[17:45] <Tonio_> I really, really, really have to go :)
[17:45] <fdoving> http://frode.kde.no/ubuntu/k/
[17:45] <Tonio_> fdoving: super thanks that'll be merged tomorrow
[17:46] <fdoving> enjoy the coq.
[17:46]  * Jucato thought Tonio_ was devouring a chicken...
[17:46] <Tonio_> fdoving:  :)
[17:46] <Tonio_> bye !!
[17:46] <nosrednaekim> bye
[17:47] <mhb> fdoving: I can do everything only when I really want :o)
[17:49] <fdoving> mhb: i belive much of our problem boils down to organizing Q&A during the development period. and that's boring so noone does it. that's why we get issues like the kdesudo, dolphin and strigi ones.
[17:50] <fdoving> and noone really wants to do organized QA. everyone just removes strigi-daemon, sets the default filemanager back to konq, and remove kdesudo on their own systems.
[17:54] <mhb> fdoving: so let's remove them all ourselves, right?
[17:54] <mhb> fdoving: I think much of our problem lies in the fact that it is easier to remove than fix bugs, and it is easier to support removal rather than fix
[17:55] <fdoving> considering all the fixing needed to be done and the manpower available, yeah.
[17:55] <mhb> I agree that we should provide a painless way to revert every time we provide something people consider controversial
[17:56] <mhb> but I disagree that the right thing is, when faced with criticism, to back down and revert to the old state
[17:56] <fdoving> that depends on the issue.
[17:57] <mhb> fdoving: does it? Strange, we've done the same thing twice in a row and personal preferences seem to indicate that we're going to do it again
[17:57] <fdoving> in kdesudos case that would be the best solution if someone didn't fix it fast. luckily for everyone I did. But the suggested fix on every forum and the bugreport was to remove kdesudo
[17:59] <fdoving> and my two-line fix doesn't really fix kdesudo, it lets users run programs as root, the 'as other user' feature doesn't work. that's too big a diff to get into gutsy.
[17:59] <fdoving> so for users that need the feature, removing kdesudo is the only way.
[18:00] <mhb> fdoving: every time it happens that someone dislikes the feature/app/file and wants to remove it
[18:00] <fdoving> with more issues like that we soon need a FAQ to reverting our "improvements" back to the kde-way.
[18:00] <mhb>  /.hidden , D3lphin, kdesudo ... you name it
[18:01] <mhb> fdoving: is sudo with kdesu even supported in KDE4?
[18:01] <fdoving> mhb: that's because kdesudo, d3lphin and .hidden breaks stuff. at large.
[18:01] <mhb> I haven't seen the code recently, but last time I did, it wasn't
[18:01] <fdoving> mhb: no idea. but probably.
[18:02] <fdoving> my point is, including experimental software is fine, but making them the default from day 1. can explode in your face, like kdesudo did.
[18:03] <mhb> fdoving: they do the job for basic tasks, they do the job for me
[18:03] <fdoving> mhb: if you use the kdesudo from the first released gutsy without updates you would end up with root-ownership on your config files.
[18:03] <fdoving> that's not even close to working.
[18:04] <fdoving> it's like using
[18:04] <fdoving> 'sudo konqueror' from the commandline.
[18:04] <mhb> fdoving: what you're saying is "let's fix all bugs before we even include it in the non-finished release" ... isn't that impossible?
[18:05] <fdoving> mhb: i'm saying 'test it for a week, then make it default'
[18:05] <mhb> and you probably know that > 50% of users upgrade to the release only once it's finished
[18:05] <fdoving> mhb: obviously that's not been done with kdesudo for example.
[18:05] <mhb> so you cannot fix all bugs even if all worked for you
[18:05] <fdoving> it's not about fixing all bugs.
[18:05] <mhb> fdoving: I'm certain that people tested it for a week and it worked for them ... you didn't, but that is a different story, I guess
[18:05] <fdoving> it's about not breaking everyones system.
[18:06] <fdoving> I didn't make anything default. I
[18:06] <mhb> we cannot force you (and everyone else) to test something
[18:06] <fdoving> why would you include things you don't know if works or not?
[18:06] <mhb> so you don't test it, but it works for us, so we make it default ... then it breaks for you
[18:06] <Tm_T> mhb: you can force me
[18:07] <mhb> Tm_T: okay, noted :o)
[18:08] <Tm_T> mhb: just put out something cool
[18:08] <Tm_T> and you can't stop me!
[18:08] <fdoving> mhb: software isn't random like that. the code does what the code deos, it's not AI.
[18:08]  * Tm_T hides
[18:08] <mhb> fdoving: you seem to suggest that people never tested it before making it default, I have to disagree, I did test it, not extensively though, I counted for Tonio_ to do that
[18:08] <mhb> it fulfilled all my daily tasks
[18:08] <mhb> which are not all tasks, I admit
[18:09] <fdoving> and i'm sure you have root-ownership on confif files in ~/.kde/
[18:09] <fdoving> which is fine if you never run konqueror, dolphin, konsole or anything else as root.
[18:09] <mhb> fdoving: strange, but I don't
[18:09]  * Jucato is seriously wondering where mhb gets his user feedback data
[18:09] <fdoving> but once you do, it breaks.
[18:10] <mhb> Jucato: czech forums and discussions, mostly
[18:10] <Jucato> that must be quite a lot
[18:11] <Jucato> I'm glad it really works for you, for your use case. but a lot of other users aren't as fortunate
[18:11] <fdoving> mhb: i wouldn't be spending 10h fixing kdesudo if it wasn't broken.
[18:11] <fdoving> brb.
[18:11] <Jucato> er... "I'm really glad it works for you"
[18:11] <mhb> well, I don't say it's perfect, but I don't see any mistake in the process of including it
[18:12] <mhb> people tested it before including it, then a wider array of people tested it, reported bugs and fixed some
[18:12] <mhb> I don't  see any problem with that
[18:12] <Jucato> it also reveals another problem. we lack testers, as well as a structure for testing/testers
[18:12] <Jucato> we'll have to address that too
[18:12] <mhb> Jucato: true
[18:13] <Jucato> (which is another point in his proposals btw)
[18:13] <fdoving> !kdesu
[18:13] <ubotu> In KDE, use « kdesudo <program> » (Gutsy) or « kdesu <program> » (Feisty and earlier) to run graphical applications with root privileges when you have to. Never just use "sudo"! (See http://psychocats.net/ubuntu/graphicalsudo to know why)
[18:13] <fdoving> we've been telling users exactly that since warty
[18:13] <mhb> hmm, never use sudo?
[18:14] <Jucato> for GUI apps.
[18:14] <mhb> I'm guilty then.
[18:14] <mhb> I've used it. Arrest me.
[18:14] <fdoving> that's not the problem.
[18:14] <Jucato> probably that's a reason why you didn't notice kdesudo not working properly?
[18:14] <fdoving> you can use sudo, with the correct options.
[18:14] <fdoving> but kdesudo didn't use the correct options.
[18:15] <mhb> Jucato: possibly so, still I don't see any problem with that... so somebody else noticed it
[18:15] <fdoving> http://psychocats.net/ubuntu/graphicalsudo explains the issue.
[18:15] <mhb> Jucato: is it a crime when a person that does a few small tweaks on kdesudo doesn't notice breakage for other people?
[18:15] <Jucato> if somebody = dozens (and literally dozens) more people, then there is a big problem
[18:16] <mhb> Jucato: am I somehow responsible for kdesudo now?
[18:16] <Jucato> I never laid any blame on you
[18:17] <mhb> well you see a problem with the fact that I didn't notice some breakage
[18:17] <Jucato> I meant that I see a problem in kdesudo if a lot of people experienced it
[18:19] <mhb> Jucato: yes, that is a bug (not a problem tho)
[18:20] <Jucato> if you say so...
[18:20] <mhb> somehow I get the feeling that you suggest we don't include anything in the development version unless we tested it on all machines
[18:20] <mhb> in the world
[18:21] <fdoving> no, testing on any machine.
[18:21] <Jucato> wow...
[18:21] <Jucato> I've never been so misinterpreted in my entire life
[18:21] <mhb> fdoving: if you don't trust me that it was tested and it worked for some people, why don't you ask the person that included it in Kubuntu whether he tested that?
[18:22] <mhb> or you think nobody tested it?
[18:22] <mhb> we just said "ooh, that would be cool if we made it default" without any testing?
[18:22] <mhb> that's plain silly
[18:23] <mhb> I don't think Riddell would allow such a thing
[18:23] <fdoving> mhb: i belive it was tested. but the options was not tested¸ and the homedir of the user was not examined for root onwed files.
[18:23] <fdoving> 'kdesudo adept' probably worked.
[18:24] <fdoving> poor QA, not non-existent.
[18:24] <mhb> fdoving: and the contents of the /tmp file weren't checked, and nobody scanned the network interface
[18:24] <mhb> and 1000 other tasks
[18:24] <Tm_T> aand that's slipping to low
[18:25] <mhb> I agree, we don't have the manpower for extensive QA
[18:25] <mhb> but complaining here doesn't change anything, does it?
[18:25] <Tm_T> perhaps, but denying it doesn't help either
[18:26]  * Jucato gives up
[18:26] <mhb> you can't take a whip and force us all to skip sleeping and eating and do QA
[18:26] <Tm_T> discussing is important, mhb
[18:26] <mhb> that's (sadly) how the community process works, you cannot force anyone
[18:26] <mhb> boring tasks get skipped
[18:26] <Tm_T> no one is forcing
[18:26] <fdoving> mhb: i'm not, i'm just saying that including experimental software as defaults can be a bad thing because it often breaks users systems. once you include something broken your
[18:27] <fdoving> 're obliged to fix it.
[18:27] <Tm_T> aye
[18:27] <Tm_T> valid point
[18:27] <fdoving> pushing experimental software and not fixing it is the evil thing.
[18:28] <fdoving> and.. if you still want the experimental software, and don't have the manpower to fix it, leave it in, but not as default.
[18:28] <mhb> I've created two components for Gutsy, yet we're not discussing them as the most problematic ones, so I kind of feel I've done it good enough.
[18:30] <mhb> and I don't have any packaging rights, I'm neither a MOTU nor a core-devel. So it wasn't me who included kdesudo into Kubuntu, and I don't see a reason why I should be obliged to do anything with it.
[18:30] <fdoving> mhb: you and everyone else is doing great. that's not the problem, I'm just making a point about the issue.
[18:30] <ScottK> That and you're not paid in addition, so you should work on what interests you.
[18:30] <Tm_T> oh boy
[18:32] <mhb> I better go fixing D3lphin.
[18:33]  * ScottK can grumble about that for a while if it would help.
[18:33] <mhb> even though it will be pointless, no matter how much bugs I squish today, people who dislike it will vote against it
[18:34] <Tm_T> mhb: untrue
[18:34] <mhb> we'll see.
[18:34] <mhb> ScottK: if you know some significant bugs in D3lphin and told me, that'd be great.
[18:34] <mhb> knew
[18:34] <fdoving> mhb: if you make it work with alt+f2 sftp urls, and make it work with digital-camera desktop icons i'll support it.
[18:35] <ScottK> mhb: It's not really a bug issue for me.  I just prefer Konqueror.
[18:35] <ScottK> But fdoving's point about sftp is well taken.
[18:35] <ScottK> That and make fish:// go away.
[18:36] <mhb> fdoving: have you filed bugs about it? Or would you prefer to explain it to me?
[18:37] <fdoving> mhb: when dolphin is the default for opening folders i have issues with some urls i put in the alt+f2 run dialog.
[18:37] <fdoving> mhb: same goes for usb-connected camera:// urls - and desktop icons.
[18:40] <mhb> fdoving: I don't have the hardware to fix camera://, unless you can emulate it in some way
[18:40] <fdoving> not that i know of.
[18:41] <mhb> fdoving: I run alt+f2, then put an "sftp://mhb.ath.cx/", and the D3lphin login/pass dialog appears, I put in valid input, and I get there
[18:41] <ScottK> mhb: There is a bug on using SFTP instead of FISH.
[18:42] <fdoving> mhb: i use ssh keys, might be an issue.
[18:42] <mhb> ScottK: fish doesn't work?
[18:43] <ScottK> mhb: No, FISH is evil and should be replaced by an actual protocol like SFTP.
[18:43] <mhb> ah, both work for me though
[18:43]  * ScottK looks for the bug.
[18:43] <mhb> the only bug I see is that you have to insert the login/pass information twice on first run
[18:43] <fdoving> ScottK: no, fish and sftp are not the same. sftp depends on sftp beeing enabled on the serverside. fish does not.
[18:44] <mhb> but I can get in with both
[18:44] <fdoving> aliasing fish to sftp will be bad. imho.
[18:44] <ScottK> fdoving: Yes and so fish drops a perl script on the distant end.
[18:44] <fdoving> mhb: then it might already be fixed. or it just works with user/pass.
[18:44] <ScottK> Not a good practice.
[18:44] <fdoving> ScottK: exactly. smart, right? :)
[18:44] <ScottK> Bug 133957 is the one I filed on it.
[18:44] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 133957 in kdelibs "Dolphin uses fish: instead of sftp: for "SSH" connections" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/133957
[18:45] <fdoving> ah, the default for remote:/ ?
[18:45] <ScottK> Something like that
[18:45] <ScottK> I think FISH should be available if needed, but not the default.
[18:45] <fdoving> i agree.
[18:45] <fdoving> sftp is also faster.
[18:46] <ScottK> It's also possible to forkbomb the server if you try and copy a bunch of files at the same time since fish tries them in parallel rather than sequentially.
[18:46]  * ScottK know that from experience
[18:47] <mhb> ScottK: how do you create this network folder?
[18:47] <ScottK> mhb: I expect that Bug 133957 would be a fun one to figure out as the answer is buried in kdelibs (IIRC) and how Dolph3n deals with it.
[18:47] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 133957 in kdelibs "Dolphin uses fish: instead of sftp: for "SSH" connections" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/133957
[18:47] <ScottK> mhb: IIRC I clicked on the icon to make a "SSH connection".
[18:48] <ScottK> My Gutsy laptop is shutdown and in another part of the house.  I can get it and try again if needed.
[18:49] <mhb> ScottK: I see it now, it's in "Network"
[18:49] <ScottK> OK.
[18:50] <mhb> hmm, that's weird
[18:50] <mhb> that dialog is completely weir
[18:50] <mhb> weird
[18:50] <ScottK> mhb: If you need any help, I'll be glad to, but when I filed the bug, I looked into it and exhausted my KDE knowlege.
[18:51] <mhb> so I should fix it so that it uses sftp instead of fish as default for the "Secure shell?
[18:51] <fdoving> ScottK: isn't that the same with konq? - it is here.
[18:51] <mhb> yeah, I guess it's d3lphin-unrelated
[18:51] <fdoving> mhb: that would be kdelibs, the remote:/ protocol. i guess. not dolphin.
[18:51] <fdoving> yep.
[18:52] <ScottK> fdoving: Dunno.  I haven't actually tried it there.
[18:52] <mhb> give me something d3lphin related
[18:52]  * ScottK will reassign the bug.
[18:52] <ScottK> mhb: Thanks for looking at it.
[18:52] <mhb> ScottK: I'll still take a look at it
[18:52] <mhb> but I'd like to fix at least one d3lphin bug today.
[18:53] <ScottK> I haven't actually used it enough to have any.  Sorry.
[18:53] <mhb> no problem
[18:54] <mhb> fdoving: I insert "camera:/" into the alt+f2 dialog, and it works
[18:54] <mhb> well the folder is obviously empty, but I get there
[18:54] <mhb> or is the problem that it is empty all the time?
[18:55] <fdoving> mhb: yeah, that works here too. but if i plug in a camera it says 'The file or folder camera:/[name of camera/ does not exist'
[18:55] <fdoving> or something like that.
[18:55] <fdoving> i'll find a camera.. hang on.
[18:58] <fdoving> the camera icon on the desktop opens media:/camera
[18:59] <fdoving> then i get 'The file or folder / does not exist
[18:59] <fdoving> '
[18:59] <fdoving> konq opens camera:/something just fine.
[18:59] <fdoving> hard for you to fix without a camera.
[19:00] <mhb> I should have one after the weekend, I'll take a look at it then, okay?
[19:00] <fdoving> sure :)
[19:00] <fdoving> I use dolphin, but i keep konq as the default.
[19:01] <fdoving> launching dolphin from a dolphin icon in the quickstarter applet.
[19:01] <CPrgmSwR2> What improvements are planed for hardy?
[19:02] <mhb> bugfixes, KDE4 in universe, catching up with Ubuntu
[19:02] <jpatrick> CPrgmSwR2: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyCatchup
[19:02]  * jpatrick goes to package kryptomanager
[19:03] <mhb> CPrgmSwR2: and whatever you hack for us :o)
[19:05] <CPrgmSwR2> printing autodetection would be awsome
[19:05] <CPrgmSwR2> mhb: is their plans to include the latest ati-drives in hardy?
[19:06] <gnomefreak> CPrgmSwR2: its added to the above site so its planned
[19:06] <gnomefreak> ati yes it should be included
[19:07] <gnomefreak> latest will be about a month before release if they release after that its gonna be hard to include it
[19:07] <Tm_T> ah
[19:08] <CPrgmSwR2> gnomefreak: I am hoping ati can work out some of its bugs with their new driver by then
[19:08] <gnomefreak> CPrgmSwR2: ati will never do that
[19:08] <fdoving> jpatrick: will you add divertions to the files kryptomedia needs to replace, or include it into kdelibs?
[19:08] <gnomefreak> ati has been buggy since beginning of time
[19:09] <jpatrick> fdoving: the patch is in kdebase (yet to upload I think)
[19:09] <fdoving> ok.
[19:13] <fdoving> i guess User Hard Disk mounting is the trickiest one in that list.
[19:16] <CPrgmSwR2> what do you mean exactly by user Hard Disk mounting... do you mean that you don't have to sudo mount a disk?
[19:17] <fdoving> i belive the idea is to let users in the 'admin' group (or similar), mount disks not in fstab
[19:17] <fdoving> disks/partitions
[19:18] <CPrgmSwR2> fdoving: it would be neat if they just automounted
[19:18] <fdoving> in some cases, maybe.
[19:18] <CPrgmSwR2> in which cases would you not want that to happen?
[19:19] <fdoving> well, mounting DellUtility partitions, MacOS have some magic partitions, it's often not wanted/neccesary.
[19:19] <fdoving> also some filesystems lack the restrictions needed to be mounted on multi-user-systems.
[19:20] <fdoving> but those are restricted in HAL, usually.
[19:20] <CPrgmSwR2> oh
[19:21] <fdoving> i'm not sure, but i guess it probably is easier to let the user click on the partition he wants to mount.
[19:22] <fdoving> I just know that media:/ hacking in KDE can be a bit frustrating. Probably better not that our /media/-specific patches are removed.
[19:22] <fdoving> .. or most of them anyway.
[19:22] <Jucato> some confirmed Dolphin bugs: http://rafb.net/p/g6Sxzu62.html
[19:22] <Jucato> (didn't want to flood and overload the bot)
[19:23] <yuriy> those are all d3lphin?
[19:23] <Jucato> yes
[19:24] <Jucato> and those are just a handpicked few
[19:24] <Jucato> (ones that I have tried and confirmed
[19:24] <mhb> Jucato: thanks
[19:28] <fdoving> mhb: i feel https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dolphin/+bug/138374 is important.
[19:28] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 138374 in dolphin "dolphin breaks when you try to open a directory with a # sign in it. " [Undecided,Confirmed]
[19:29] <gnomefreak> testing that now i thought you could
[19:29] <Jucato> just tried it a while ago, still couldn't
[19:29] <gnomefreak> Jucato: where is the #
[19:29] <Jucato> anywhere in the folder name
[19:29] <gnomefreak> im using it like fun#lies
[19:29] <fdoving> the crash in 139516 is also a bit evil.
[19:30] <gnomefreak> lmao
[19:30] <gnomefreak> i have a dir fun and fun#lies if i try to open fun#lies it opens fun
[19:31] <gnomefreak> hmmmmmmm thats odd it defaults to the first word
[19:31] <gnomefreak> even help#me defaults to open help but there is no help dir
[19:32] <Jucato> gnomefreak: it's even worse if you have the breadcrumb bar set to browse mode...
[19:32] <mhb> fdoving: okay
[19:32] <Jucato> you only get file://
[19:32] <gnomefreak> oh and mkdir wont make dir starting with # so it may not be supported
[19:32] <mhb> fdoving: I have to overcome some Hardy breakage before I can even compile dolphin
[19:33] <nosrednaekim> hardy is already out?
[19:34] <Jucato> er... devel
[19:34] <Tm_T> erm
[19:34] <gnomefreak> nosrednaekim: no its in pre alpha stages
[19:34] <gnomefreak> mhb: whats broken?
[19:34]  * gnomefreak doesnt have breakage in hardy atm
[19:34] <mhb> I cannot find a libkonq4
[19:35] <mhb> yet I need it in order to build Dolphin
[19:35] <Jucato> O.o
[19:35] <mhb> well, perhaps I can get it via p.u.c
[19:36] <nosrednaekim> yeah....I figured that much :D
[19:36] <gnomefreak> hmmmmm
[19:36] <nixternal> !info libkonq4-dev
[19:36] <ubotu> libkonq4-dev: development files for Konqueror's core libraries. In component main, is optional. Version 4:3.5.8-0ubuntu2 (gutsy), package size 80 kB, installed size 248 kB
[19:36] <gnomefreak> mhb: thats odd since policy shows i have it installed but find couldnt find it (kind of ironic)
[19:36]  * Jucato was responsible for adding that dependency to d3lphin...
[19:36] <gnomefreak> nixternal: libkonq3 is package
[19:36] <gnomefreak> -3 +4
[19:38] <mhb> actually I used Lure's PPA packages in Gutsy and Hardy complained
[19:38] <mhb> dpkg -i magic helped
[19:38] <gnomefreak> thats odd
[19:38] <gnomefreak> i only have info and docs for libkonq4
[19:38] <gnomefreak> from locate
[19:38] <mhb> well I'm back on track
[19:40] <mhb> fdoving: I'll do the pound one first
[19:41]  * gnomefreak wonders if konq or natlus opens them
[19:41] <gnomefreak> nautilus
[19:41] <Jucato> konq does
[19:41] <nixternal> libkonq4 provides /usr/include/kde/konq_*
[19:41] <gnomefreak> working on nautilus
[19:41] <gnomefreak> to see
[19:42] <gnomefreak> yep it does
[19:42] <gnomefreak> you just cant make it with # to start atleast in mkdir
[19:45] <jpatrick> Riddell: could you approve/reject semantik? There's a new upstream release I would like to upload
[19:48] <gnomefreak> can you open a file in dolphin by naming the file instead of clicking on it?
[19:48] <Jucato> filter + pressing Enter?
[19:49] <Jucato> (press / to show the filter bar)
[19:49] <gnomefreak> ty
[19:50] <fdoving> some#folder can be opened with right-click -> open with -> dolphin
[19:50] <fdoving> funny. it works, but not when clicked.
[19:51] <nixternal> sudo apt-get remove dolphin
[19:51] <gnomefreak> but cant open dolphin and click it :(
[19:51] <nixternal> that is the easiest fix :p
[19:51] <fdoving> that's a workaround :)
[19:51]  * Jucato avoids the discussion again by going to bed at 4am...
[19:51] <nixternal> hehe, k'nite Jucato
[19:51] <nosrednaekim> night Jucato
[19:51] <Jucato> g'night!
[19:51] <nixternal> what!?!?! :p
[19:52] <Jucato> :P
[19:52] <Jucato> winight
[19:52] <nixternal> d'oh
[19:52] <gnomefreak> night Jucato
[19:53] <fdoving> you can get into the directory if you write folder%23name instead of folder#name as suggested by auto-completion.
[19:53] <nixternal> one of these days, I hope I get to meet peer, he deserves a beating for always resetting people's connections
[19:54] <gnomefreak> mhb: are there security implications of this?
[19:55] <mhb> gnomefreak: of what?
[19:55] <mhb> it's a bad bug, I admit
[19:55] <gnomefreak> ah ok but nothing securioty related
[19:56] <mhb> I'd publish it as a security fix, but I dunno
[19:56] <mhb> it's pretty bad
[19:56] <gnomefreak> it is bad
[19:57] <fdoving> which bug?
[19:58] <gnomefreak> the dolphin bug
[19:58] <gnomefreak> fdoving: with # in name
[19:58] <fdoving> ah, yeah, that one is evil.
[19:59] <fdoving> i belive it's wrong use of KURL in multiple places.
[19:59] <mhb> it seems dolphin translates those chars
[20:00] <mhb> %23%23folder works
[20:00] <fifoo> hey guys, i can't compile kdelibs from svn because of soprano being too old
[20:00] <fdoving> mhb: yeah, suggests wrong use of KURL.
[20:00] <nixternal> fifoo: you need to build it from kdesupport in svn
[20:01] <fifoo> that's what I did
[20:01] <fifoo> but that did not work
[20:01] <nixternal> hrmm...it seems I am the only one it has worked for around here...you aren't the first to experience the problem
[20:02] <fifoo> I looked on the net and it looks like I might need to uninstall libsoprano-dev using apt first
[20:02] <jdong> hey y'all :)
[20:02] <fifoo> des that sound reasonable?
[20:02] <jdong> gnomefreak's poked me towards the dolphin thing
[20:02] <nosrednaekim> fifoo: yes, unintall it first
[20:03] <fifoo> if I attempt to do that it looks like some key libs will be removed too so I'm too sure...
[20:03] <gnomefreak> i poked for test on something but it turns out me and jdong are working at exact same pace as fdoving and mhb
[20:03] <gnomefreak> lol
[20:03] <nixternal> fifoo: it could be...I didn't do it that way though
[20:03] <jdong> I think this is a security vulnerability
[20:03] <nosrednaekim> fifoo: do it.
[20:03] <nixternal> I think kdepim takes the longest to build
[20:03] <jdong> I'm pretty sure I can %-escape ../../../../usr/bin/command
[20:04] <jdong> and dolphin will follow it
[20:04] <fdoving> jdong: yup, i'm suggesting it's wrong use of KURL somewhere. trying to figure out where. as open-with -> dolphin works on those folders. (still translates to %23)
[20:04] <jdong> fdoving: right; I'm extremely concerned that making a folder called foo%23bar causes dolphin to navigate to foo#bar
[20:04] <fdoving> jdong: you don't need to, just enter the full path to the command without the other crap
[20:04]  * gnomefreak figured dolphin uses bash(for some odd reason) or something else that # is a comment since it redirects you to name prior to #
[20:04] <fdoving> ah, like that.
[20:05] <jdong> fdoving: it's a case of clicking one physical folder name redirects you to an entirely different place
[20:05] <fdoving> yep.
[20:05] <jdong> because dolphin seems to be unescaping raw path names
[20:05] <fdoving> figured it out eventually.
[20:05] <gnomefreak> sad part it redirects you even if folder doesnt exsit
[20:05] <fifoo> nosrednaekim: it says that kde4base-dev kdelibs5-dev and kdepimlibs5-dev will be removed! Is that OK?
[20:06] <nixternal> fifoo: yes, if you are building it from svn and not using the packages in the repos
[20:06] <nosrednaekim> fifoo: yes
[20:06] <fifoo> cool! Ta
[20:07] <fdoving> jdong: if you have the folders something%23strange and something#strange clicking the %23 one opens the # one, clicking the # one tries to open ./something/
[20:08] <jdong> fdoving: right
[20:09] <jdong> YIKES
[20:09] <jdong> EVEN WORSE
[20:09] <jdong> name a folder "test; touch foo"
[20:09] <jdong> and tell dolphin to open as root
[20:10] <jdong> the second part is executed
[20:10] <fdoving> that might as well be kdesudos fault.
[20:10] <ScottK> Kewl
[20:10] <jdong> fdoving: why isn't dolphin escaping what's passed to kdesudo though?
[20:11] <jdong> fdoving: if I tell kdesudo to execute "foo; bar", it should
[20:11] <jdong> fdoving: it's dolphin at fault for not shell-escaping path names
[20:11] <jdong> -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 7 2007-11-17 15:10 /tmp/foobar
[20:11] <jdong> it definitely executed it as root
[20:12] <fdoving> it doesn
[20:12] <fdoving> 't touch foo here.
[20:12] <jdong> it might not go where you expect it to go
[20:13] <jdong> make a /usr/local/bin/foobar command that touches /tmp/foobar
[20:13] <jdong> then open a directory called "test; foobar"
[20:13] <jdong> you will find /tmp/foobar with root ownership
[20:15] <fdoving> jdong: test with http://frode.kde.no/ubuntu/k/kdesudo_1.1-0ubuntu5_i386.deb
[20:15] <jdong> fdoving: what's this new version do differently?
[20:16] <fdoving> i have fixed lots of its brokenness.
[20:16] <jdong> fdoving: ok, but nonetheless Ubuntu Gutsy's version is vulnerable to this bug, agree?
[20:16] <fdoving> dynamic xauth, non-root kdesudo -u works
[20:16] <fdoving> jdong: i haven't tested that version yet, hang on.
[20:18] <fdoving> yep, gutsys version makes foobar.
[20:18] <jdong> fdoving: 0ubuntu5 still vulnerable
[20:18] <jdong> fdoving: try test; konqueror -- it's a lot more dramatic :D
[20:18] <jdong> evne with 0buuntu5 it opens up a dolphin at test, then opens konqueror as root
[20:18] <fdoving> hum. ok, nothing to do with kdesudo then.
[20:19] <fdoving> but i guess you can add sudo options too, with non-ubuntu5 versions.
[20:19] <jdong> right
[20:19] <jdong> it seems like only open as root is vulnerable to command injection
[20:19] <jdong> which is.... unfortunate :D
[20:19] <fdoving> which should be -very- simple to fix.
[20:19] <jdong> right
[20:22] <fdoving> jdong: /usr/share/apps/d3lphin/servicemenus/d3lphin_su.desktop - make it read: Exec=kdesu -c 'd3lphin "%U"'
[20:22] <fdoving> then try again.
[20:23] <jdong> fdoving: well, worked, but now name it test"; konqueror"
[20:23] <jdong> same problem
[20:25] <fdoving> Exec=kdesu "d3lphin" "%U"
[20:26] <fdoving> then.
[20:29] <mhb> so, are you done talking about it?
[20:29] <mhb> cause I fixed it
[20:30] <fdoving> great :)
[20:30] <jdong> fdoving: ok, that works better, except it can't open folders with " in it
[20:31] <fdoving> that's just annoying, not pure evil :)
[20:31] <mhb> the problem is actually described as #1 on the API docs
[20:31] <jdong> fdoving: I'm still not sure if I can exploit it or not...
[20:31] <mhb> http://api.kde.org/3.5-api/kdelibs-apidocs/kdecore/html/classKURL.html
[20:32] <jdong> zsh: unmatched "
[20:32] <jdong> spits that to the console
[20:32] <jdong> which is... a bit scary?
[20:33] <jdong> fdoving: test"`konqueror`"
[20:33] <jdong> test"`sudo konqueror`" will elevate to root without a second password prompt, as it's within the sudo cache time of the first execution
[20:33] <fdoving> evil.
[20:34] <jdong> there's gotta be a %u/%U spec that escapes the URL right?
[20:34] <jdong> granted this stuff is still far fetched as "exploit material" as the user has to be dumb enough to click such a hideous looking folder
[20:35] <mhb> give me an example of something bad happening
[20:36] <mhb> jdong: ^^
[20:36] <fdoving> test"`rm -rf something`" ?
[20:36] <mhb> so a something file and a "rm something" folder?
[20:36] <jdong> mhb: someone lures a user into opening a folder named test"`command`", the command is executed
[20:37] <fdoving> test"`rm -rf /`" is evil.
[20:37] <fdoving> especially if one click 'open as root'
[20:37] <jdong> mhb: though it takes a great deal of idiocy on the user's part to fall to a trap like this, it's still not good behavior that open as on a directory executes a command
[20:38] <mhb> so should I name it "`konqueror`" or `konqueror` ?
[20:38] <mhb> tried both
[20:38] <mhb> and 'konqueror'
[20:39] <mhb> guess I fixed it
[20:39] <jdong> mhb: sorry, this is confusing, there's like 5 different Exec='s that fdoving and I been through
[20:39] <jdong> lemme try to recall which one works for stock kubuntu
[20:39] <fdoving> jdong: the first one without any quoting. wasn't it ?
[20:39] <jdong> mhb: try test; konqueror
[20:39] <mhb> as a folder name?
[20:40] <jdong> yes
[20:40] <jdong> then open as root on it
[20:40] <jdong> it defintiely works for me on stock gutsy
[20:40] <mhb> that would work because the elevated d3lphin won't be patched by me
[20:40] <jdong> first dolphin pops up navigated to "test"
[20:41] <jdong> and then a few seconds later konqueror pops up under toot
[20:41] <jdong> root*
[20:41] <mhb> hmm, true
[20:41] <mhb> that is unrelated to the # bug
[20:41] <jdong> right, this is an unrelated bug
[20:44] <jdong> yeah it seems to only be a problem when hooked up with kdesu
[20:45] <fdoving> probably kdesudo
[20:45] <jdong> i.e. kdesudo runs the command on the inside under a basic sh shell
[20:45] <jdong> where these escapes are being interpreted
[20:45] <fdoving> yep.
[20:45] <jdong> while the non-root ones directly execute these strings, which have no meaning without a sh
[20:45] <jdong> shall I file a bug about this, or is it handled? :)
[20:46] <fdoving> it's an kdesudo issue.
[20:46] <fdoving> kdesu.distrib does this properly.
[20:46] <mhb> file a bug, please
[20:46] <mhb> and get someone to fix this
[20:46] <mhb> .o)
[20:46] <fdoving> jdong: it's about adding an ' at the beginning and end, of the command, right?
[20:46] <mhb> I'm busy with d3lphin, I guess.
[20:47] <fdoving> i'm starting to dislike kdesudo.
[20:47] <jdong> fdoving: well with the default configuration, it's about just "foo; bar" executing bar"
[20:47] <jdong> fdoving: with the various Exec= workarounds that you suggested, I can work around them with various combinations of ', ", and `
[20:48] <jdong> fdoving: so overall IMO the problem is that kdesudo is using a /bin/sh to interpret the arguments which is just asking for trouble
[20:50]  * jdong files bug
[20:50] <fdoving> please post the number here.
[20:50] <fdoving> i'll have to feed a kid.
[20:50] <fdoving> bbl.
[20:51] <jdong> ok
[20:51] <ScottK> fdoving: Do that and they grow and then you have to buy them new clothes and all kinds of anoying stuff.
[20:51]  * jdong files "Launchpad times out when trying to file a security bug" :D
[20:51] <jdong> that's a denial-of-service!
[20:56] <jdong> bug 163417
[20:56] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 163417 in kdesudo "kdesudo+dolphin leads to command execution vulnerability" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/163417
[20:56] <jdong> fdoving, mhb ^^ :)
[20:59] <gnomefreak> so while fixing a bug you file more bugs? ;)
[21:00] <jdong> gnomefreak: lol, the best time to find another bug is after you've fixed one, right? :D
[21:00] <jdong> otherwise the bug database shrinks.
[21:00] <gnomefreak> true
[21:00] <gnomefreak> but keep in mind most bugs are features :)
[21:01] <jdong> gnomefreak: I can see the convenience in this -- I can both navigate to a folder AND execute a command as root at the same time!
[21:01] <nosrednaekim> especial #1
[21:01] <jdong> two birds with one stone!
[21:05] <gnomefreak> bug #1 will take care of itself when xp EOS comes up, people are not gonna want to buy/upgrade thier pc for vista (atleast the people with older pcs
[21:05] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1
[21:05] <gnomefreak> damn
[21:45] <fifoo> hey, i've got troubles building kdepimlibs, I've got "It is impossible to order the linker search path in such a way that libraries specified as full paths will be picked by the linker"
[21:45] <fifoo> I've made a svn update and just wanted to recompile the source
[21:46] <nixternal> after you do svn update do
[21:46] <nixternal> cb
[21:47] <nixternal> make -j2 VERBOSE=1 && make install
[21:48] <jdong> Tonio_: uh oh gonna need another KT patch uploaded in a sec; seems like we've got a crasher in 2.2.3
[21:50] <fifoo> nixternal: I've got "No rule to make target `/usr/lib/libstreamanalyzer.so', needed by `lib/libkresources.so.4.0.0'."
[21:50] <fifoo> I've jsut made a make clean
[21:50] <nixternal> you need to install strigi
[21:54] <mhb> Riddell: assigned bug 132141 to you, so please take a look at it and perhaps fix it
[21:54] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 132141 in dolphin "desktop_dolphin translations missing in the source package" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/132141
[21:54] <mhb> we'd like to have D3lphin translated!
[21:55] <fifoo> nixternal: installed strigi from kdesupport
[21:55] <nixternal> hrmm
[21:56] <stdin> you need to make sure cmake is looking in the right place, ccmake is good to check
[21:56] <fifoo> and whats the difference between doing make in the build dir and cmakekde in the src dir (if there is one?)
[21:57] <stdin> cmakekde cd's you to the build dir
[21:58] <mhb> opinions on bug 148663 appreciated
[21:58] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 148663 in dolphin "Icon launch effect is not implemented in Dolphin" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/148663
[21:59] <jpatrick> man, there are no more kde universe merges..
[22:01] <fifoo> everything was building fine when I followed the online tutorial (by installing the required packets via apt)
[22:01] <fifoo> but this afternnoon I updated the src from svn and needed a new version of soprano
[22:02] <fifoo> so I uninstalled some packets and built soprano (and strigi) from kdesupport
[22:02] <fifoo> but can't have the kde source to build now
[22:04] <jpatrick> hey, does anyone else's konqueror make multiple tabs if they press Ctrl-Shift-N?
[22:04] <jpatrick> but I mean as in never stopping and jamming up.. :(
[22:04] <fifoo> what do you recommend? the version online, or build everything from svn?
[22:05] <mhb> jdong: one duplicate to your bugreport already
[22:05] <jdong> mhb: really?
[22:05] <mhb> jdong: yes, differently phrased but still
[22:05] <fifoo> by the version online, I mean the tutorial on kde techbase
[22:06] <jdong> mhb: was it already filed and I didn't search well enough?
[22:06] <mhb> jdong: I guess so, still I marked your one as the main one because you describe better what happens
[22:07] <jdong> ok, cool
[22:11] <begert__> fifoo: I know I had to build Soprano and then copy all soprano stuff from usr/local/ to just usr/
[22:11] <begert__> I know thats the wrong fix
[22:11] <begert__> but thats what I did
[22:11] <yuriy> begert__: Riddell put up packages for newer soprano
[22:11] <begert__> ohsss
[22:11] <begert__> thats good too
[22:11] <begert__> :P
[22:13] <fifoo> :)
[22:13] <fifoo> But do you recommend sticking to the packages or better using svn?
[22:14] <begert__> i would prefer packages
[22:16] <fifoo> begert__: Thanks! I think I'll start again from scratch :)
[22:17] <begert__> what component can't you build fifoo
[22:17] <begert__> ?
[22:17] <fifoo> kdepimlibs
[22:19] <begert__> the only other thing I can think off is removing soprano and then re-installing
[22:19] <begert__> it didn't try and update for me
[22:19] <fifoo> begert__: unless I did something silly. But I imagine I have to rebuild the libs each time I svn update, right?
[22:19] <begert__> I do
[22:20] <begert__> kdelibs -> kdepimlibs -> kdebase
[22:20] <begert__> thats what I usually do
[22:21] <fifoo> ok. Do you follow the same procedure as one the tutorial? cmakekde in each source dir?
[22:22] <begert__> not exactly, but that should work
[22:22] <begert__> I was pretty much doing all the things in cmakekde manually
[22:23] <fifoo> do you make clean first?
[22:25] <begert__> if i had trouble I would kinda start from scratch
[22:25] <begert__> make a new build folder kdelibs_2 for example
[22:25] <fifoo> ;-)
[22:26] <fifoo> Yeah, doint that right now
[22:26] <begert__> then cmake /SVNSTUFF/kdelibs in the new folder
[22:26] <begert__> then make
[22:26] <begert__> and so on
[22:29] <nixternal> is it just me, or is moving plasma widgets impossible?
[22:31] <begert__> last I knew (couple days ago) I could no longer move the digital clock
[22:39] <begert__> CMake Error: Soprano version 1.96.0 is too old. Please install 1.97.1 or newer
[22:39] <begert__> :P
[22:50] <fifoo> :)
[22:51] <fifoo> begert__: I've just reinstalled soprano from kdesupport but as far I know I need to uninstall the package for the newer version to be used
[22:51] <fifoo> and I think that's where it started to go wrong earlier!
[22:52] <begert__> sillyness
[22:59] <mhb> well, I've got enough
[22:59] <mhb> see you later