[02:07] mhb: sorry, i suck. been busy. [02:15] don't be too hard on yourself :) [02:15] * Jucato sucks and he isn't even busy :) [02:20] sorry none of you suck! [02:20] I do cuz I am too lazy to learn new stuff ;) [02:23] I've been "learning" for several years now and I still suck.. :-) [02:24] I've not been learning, which makes me suck more :) [02:33] I never startted so my suckage rules all [02:33] * claydoh loves yall, even if you think you suck which you don't [02:34] hahah :) === czessi_ is now known as Czessi [05:57] nice, Edubuntu is looking at a fairly large rollout now [06:00] oooh he's here!! :) [06:01] * Jucato is almost finished drawing up a wiki page for the imaginary meeting [06:02] lol [06:02] here today, gone tomorrow [06:03] you? or the meeting? :) [06:03] (which was never here today...) [06:03] boy, even in wikis I can still rant! [06:04] I am tired of ranting...it is like they go unheard anyways [06:05] yep, that's why most people blog! [06:05] * Jucato blonts... [06:06] blog + rant... [06:06] "I'm more emo than you." [06:06] haha [06:07] there! done! [06:07] hm. saving is taking longer than previewing :) [06:08] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyProposals [06:18] wo0t...on monday, our local frys electronics will sell PC-BSD systems with KDE! [06:19] and everyone in the US knows that frys is HUGE! [06:19] yay! [06:19] but PC-BSD? O.o [06:19] oh well, as long as it's KDE!! [06:19] ya, odd choice, but it will be KDE! [06:20] frys had the choice I guess with the green pc or the bsd one [06:20] oh definitely good he chose the KDE one :) [06:20] that it is [06:21] I still can't seem to believe that someone deployed systems using E... must have been a big boost for the E folks [06:21] we were in there the other day, a couple of the LUG guys, and they manager knows us because after every meeting, we crash the place [06:21] so we got to test drive a couple of *nix boxes they were looking at [06:21] s/crash/trash/ ? [06:22] we get there at about 5pm every sunday...that is when they put out all of the super bargain stuff [06:22] that is how I bought those linspire desktops for $125 each [06:22] Host '3LockBox', running Linux 2.6.22-14-generic - Cpu0: AMD Athlon 2200 MHz; Up: 3d+7:19; Users: 1; Load: 0.00; Free: [Mem: 386/941 Mio] [Swap: 863/863 Mio] [/: 11381/14084 Mio] [/boot: 93/122 Mio] [/home: 37369/41301 Mio] [/media/maxtor: 142409/150230 Mio]; Vpenis: 93.4 cm; [06:22] that is what I got for $125 [06:22] wow [06:23] I upgraded the ram and added an external drive [06:23] only came with 512mb of ram and a 60gb drive I think..but still...for $125 that is pretty good [06:23] and one came with a super large 15" crt :p [06:23] wow [06:23] really wow [06:26] did you hear that? [06:26] my pillow is calling my name [06:26] k'nite :) [06:26] knight! :) [10:07] hello Knightlust [10:12] hi jpatrick [10:26] jpatrick: nice english :( [10:27] Tm_T: ? [10:27] "wanna" in topic [10:27] :P [10:27] I'd replace it with "want to" or "like to" [10:28] it's bit fussy for some people now [10:28] there :) [10:28] thanks :) [11:33] hi! === neversfelde_ is now known as neversfelde === \sh_away is now known as \sh [12:03] since, konqueror in Kubuntu doesn't have the "window" menu, the KDE Quickstart guide will have to be modified with shortcuts to that terminal emulator [12:05] in Kubuntu [12:05] http://docs.kde.org/development/en/kdebase/quickstart/want-command-line-back.html - this page [12:06] anybody around? [13:18] Hobbsee: we need because... http://ihosted.info/~jpatrick/kubuntu-leaflet-es.png [13:18] it doesn't end up very pretty [13:18] hah. nasty. === neversfelde_ is now known as neversfelde [13:37] hi folks [13:38] hi mhb [13:40] anything new & fresh around? [13:47] * ryanakca wonders if there will be a K4B [13:47] or... KIVB ... since they use roman numerals in their logo [13:47] * ryanakca waves to mhb [13:48] I guess there will be, but not soon [13:49] ryanakca: have you asked Riddell for his assistance? [14:37] Riddell: ping, could you please poke/prod/set Hobbsee and her PSOD loose on the canonical people who are "in charge" of setting up drupal for kubuntu.org? Not that there's a big rush, but the sooner it's up, the better, imho :) [14:37] mhb: done :) [14:37] ? [14:37] what influence do you think i have? [14:37] lots? [14:37] mhb: thinking early european morning [14:39] * ryanakca yawns and burns a copy of Ubuntu Studio for his school's student radio... [14:52] Hi [14:52] Is Jonathan Patrick Davies around? [14:53] jpatrick: would that be you ^^ ? [14:54] yep [14:55] Hi [14:55] I'm Laurent [14:55] You contacted me by email a while ago [14:55] ah hello there! :D [14:55] and told me to come and chat to you here [14:55] to see how I can get involved :) [14:55] well, us :) [14:55] oooh new slave :) [14:56] er I meant, contributor :) [14:56] ;-) [14:56] well, what would you like to help out with? [14:57] I'm quite interesting in coding (bugfixing I imagine now that the release is getting closer) [14:57] I do C++ [14:58] prehaps you could help Tonio_ with kio-apt? [15:00] https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HelpingKubuntu and https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyCatchup [15:00] sure [15:02] fifoo: we have until Feb 14th for new stuff, plenty of time :) [15:04] cool! :) [15:05] !schedule [15:05] Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases [15:05] er.. hm... [15:06] fifoo: just take note of the freezes: https://wiki.kubuntu.org/HardyReleaseSchedule [15:06] but yeah we've got time... :) [15:07] Hey Tonio_, any way I could help? [15:10] fifoo: apt-get source kio-apt from Hardy and I think the apt+http:// protocol has to be implemented [15:13] umm who were our default settings guy? [15:13] Tm_T: Tonio_ :) (I think) [15:13] I thought too [15:14] Tonio_ or Riddell perhaps [15:14] Tonio_: hi, I wonder if we should reconsider klipper settings [15:23] Tonio_: about saving clipboard contents on exit, not perhaps desired default [15:26] Jucato: hey, you live almost next to Hobbsee, would you mind somehow forcing her to tell us a date/time when she can get to a meeting? Thanks. [15:26] Jucato: I'm kind of angry over how it gets more and more delayed [15:26] I'll ask her tomorrow if that's ok [15:27] mhb: make meetings on weekends so we can all go is what I say [15:27] afaik the next weekend will be good as long as it's still weekend for us too. she has exams on monday [15:27] (Nov 26 monday) [15:27] jpatrick: yes, I tried, yet she couldn't find an hour when she could come... [15:28] jpatrick: still, that's the plan [15:28] I wanted to have it this week, but it can be done in 7 days, too [15:28] or at least something I added to the meeting page :P === booga is now known as begert__ [15:28] Jucato: thanks [15:28] and every 2 weeks or something [15:29] * Jucato suggests monthly [15:29] too long [15:30] Jucato: I still think D3lphin works quite well for me... [15:30] Jucato: I agree on strigi, though ... never like the KDE3 frontend and the CPU consuming [15:31] mhb: the issue I'm raising about D3lphin is the practicality of supporting it in an LTS, since it is unmaintained it seems and quite a number of bugs [15:32] as for the fact that it works for you, it can easily be countered by "it doesn't work for X number of users" too... but that's not going to help [15:32] I won't use D3lphin, that's all I'm going to say [15:32] Tm_T: You don't have to, do you? [15:33] no, I don't, actually, never really did use either [15:33] the fact is that D3lphin is loved and disliked equally. there's no statistic that can reliably prove which side is the majority. [15:33] Jucato: you are right, if it's too buggy, we should decide on it [15:33] he doesn't have to. but remember that we're putting it up front as *our* default file manager. that alone is a big factor [15:33] * mhb hasn't seen the bug reports yet [15:34] Jucato: I wouldn't say it is "our default" because I just ignore defaults when I think my usage [15:34] I'm not in our target [15:34] ark integration, other service menus, d3lphin not opening folders with #, funky status resizing bar, funky resizing info panel when splitting the window [15:35] sounds fun [15:35] our default = officially Kubuntu's default. [15:35] true [15:35] if I had to choose, definately Konqueror [15:36] it's real powertool [15:36] and the fact that hardy will be LTS, we have to support it for at least 3 years on the desktop [15:36] yup [15:36] that alone screams to me "Konqueror ftw!" [15:36] I have no issues about d3lphin remaining if we're really intent on doing an Adept on it... [15:37] Jucato: well LTS is not really an argument for Konqueror or against Konqueror, seeing as the D3lphin haters are quite loud, I don't think there will be more serious bugs other than they reported [15:37] er.. remaining as the default... I'm amenable to having it still installed for "backward compatibility" [15:37] true, we *should* fix them [15:38] mhb: I guess my point is, given the meager human resources that we already have, we will most likely end up maintaing D3lphin in becoming the de facto upstream, sort of like what's practically happening to Adept [15:38] but I guess since we've been able to pull that off w/ Adept, we can probably do it with D3lphin as well...*shrugs* [15:38] off -> [15:38] <- on [15:39] well, it's a question on Riddell and Tonio_ mainly [15:40] those two are most likely to do D3lphin fixes, if anyone [15:40] on Riddell mainly now. unless Tonio_ changed his mind. last time I think he was thinking twice about D3lphin [15:44] Jucato: truth is, some people (in my opinion unjustly) sharply criticised Kubuntu and JR for including D3lphin and Strigi, removing them might be a show of weakness, or it may spark more Kubuntu criticism, especially from other distro's fans [15:45] * Jucato puts forward the hidden-root and mediat:/ to /media changes and reversions [15:45] Jucato: we also must take into account the "silent" part of the community ... it's the same as in our country, extremists are quite loud, but that doesn't mean the whole country agrees with them [15:45] the fact is that D3lphin is loved and disliked equally. there's no statistic that can reliably prove which side is the majority. [15:45] indeed [15:46] which is why I'm not putting that forward as the mean reason for reconsideration [15:46] I very much liked the decision of hiding root and stuff [15:46] we can always say that "hey, we've decided to keep D3lphin as the default because we've fixed it and made it better." [15:46] too bad it got reconsidered [15:47] I like the idea/purpose behind the hidden root thing, but not the implementation [15:53] if stars are aligned, I will have a patch for Adept skipping the silly welcome screen later today [15:53] updater [15:53] yay [15:53] (I guess) [15:53] hmm, someone beat me to it [15:54] damn you Tonio_ :o) [15:55] heh [15:56] hmm [15:56] what should I do then [15:56] perhaps a nicer icon for the Adept updater [15:56] I always disliked the "Warning" icon there [15:57] and the package is kind of blurred [15:57] * ryanakca nods ;) [15:57] mhb: replace it by the one used by Katapult... [15:58] (cd in a box)... sure, you'll have to tinker with pixels to get it down to kmenu/system tray size... but, it would look nicer :) [15:58] ryanakca: name? [15:59] mhb: of the icon? unsure... I can try to find it though... probably under /usr/share/icons/something [15:59] ooh, you mean the Adept Manager package [15:59] okay, let's get tweaking [16:00] mornin' [16:00] hey nixternal [16:01] yo nixternal [16:01] mhb: it's a kpassivebox, but I think you know that.. [16:03] mhb: hmm *twiddles* [16:04] mhb: /usr/share/icons/hicolor/scalable/apps/adept_manager.svgz is the svg [16:06] /usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/adept_manager.png is one of the pngs... substitute 32x32 by 64x64, 48x48, 22x22, 16x16, etc for various sizes. So, it looks like you just need to adjust the kmenu entry or something of the sort [16:06] there's also _updater.png and _installer.png / .svg [16:09] hmm, svg [16:10] ryanakca: thanks a lot [16:12] mhb: :) === \sh is now known as \sh_away [16:14] mhb: ok... looks like KMenu is already setup to use the nice icon... so, basically, iirc, all you have to do is look in the adept updater sources for the line that points to the icon and replace that filename by /usr/share/icons/hicolor/correctxsize/apps/adept_updater.png [16:17] ryanakca: are you sure you know which icon I mean? The notification one [16:17] the one with the red warning [16:34] mhb: Umm... I'm guessing your talking about this one: http://blog.ryanak.ca/adept.png [16:34] (sorry about the crappy screenshot) === claydoh__ is now known as claydoh [16:36] yeah [16:38] ryanakca: attempt 1 [16:41] http://mhb.ath.cx/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/updater-icon.png [16:41] ryanakca: ^^ check it out [16:43] mhb: looks great :D [16:43] * ryanakca => lunch [16:46] comments from everyone on the subject welcome [16:47] especially "blonters" like Jucato (that word is so strange sounding) [16:47] and yet so catchy :) [16:48] I find it better than previous icon, although I'm not sure if the new overlay is distinguishable enough... [16:48] (what's the image metaphor for "update" anyway?) [16:48] not sure either [16:48] I just reused an Oxygen symbol for "down" because they have SVGs, unlike Crystal [16:49] which is puzzling, since the real name of the icon set is "Crystal SVG" :) [16:49] yeah [16:49] that guy never released any SVGs, I guess [16:49] even the Crystal Something he did recently [16:50] Project [16:50] bleh everaldo :) [16:50] * Jucato likes the "globe" icons in Crystal Project though. [16:50] Crystal Project, Crystal Fusion, CrystalKit ... who knows? [16:50] bah everaldo is more like it [16:51] he makes nice icons, but never releases the source, which is a license violation, and he doesn't attach a license at all to his tarballs either [16:51] then to top it off, his icon themes will switch the nice konqi logo to a freakin' linspire logo [16:51] haha [16:51] bah, bleh. same thing... I had my tongue out though :P [16:52] nixternal: several k packages awaiting your masterness on revu [16:52] Jucato: we have a metaphor for "restart", not the same as update, though [16:52] and a) he won't fix the logo issue, b) he won't attach a license, and c) he will not provide the svg's...so because of that, we are unable to package the icons...and believe me, Riddell, Hobbsee, and myself have tried talking to him... [16:52] and I tried to avoid it as we use the same icon for "Your computer needs to restart" [16:52] jpatrick: I will take a look in a sec [16:52] "down" as in "download updates" seems sensible [16:52] updating my kde4 build so I can do some krushing today [16:52] nixternal: they're all near the top [16:52] groovy [16:52] mhb: perhaps a bit bigger maybe? [16:53] mhb: the down arrow I mean... [16:56] Is there a way to get the latest version of soprano [16:56] CMake Error: Soprano version 1.96.0 is too old. Please install 1.97.1 or newer [16:56] I get this error on kubuntu [16:59] hi [16:59] mhb: about d3lphin [16:59] hi Tonio_ [16:59] there is no problem doing something wrong, but it is a problem not to fix the issue [16:59] imho, d3lphin should be installed, but obviosly not associated to the system [17:00] especially since we don't have a graphical way to switch back [17:00] changing inode/directory mimetype association is just nasty for the user [17:00] about strigi, same problem, it doesn't work and fucks up (sorry) the cpu [17:00] CPrgmSwR2: http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/soprano/ <- you can try the soprano from there, but last I tried it didn't work..so I ended up building soprano from kdesupport and that worked [17:00] with strigi my battery life is about 30 minutes [17:00] that's just a shame [17:01] same here [17:01] mhb: if I had to vote, and especially since hardy will be lts release, means use by companies, I'd remove them [17:01] Lure: hey, any chance you vould put my wattmeter in hardy's version of guidance-power-manager? [17:01] Tonio_: +1 billion :) [17:02] nixternal: is there a meeting toonight ? [17:02] dunno [17:02] I might not be there unfortunatelly, but I'd like to rediscuss this in the next meeting [17:02] nosrednaekim: it should go to kde svn first, then it will be picked up from there [17:02] doing nothing is bad [17:02] Lure: who should I contact about that? its a two line patch. [17:02] * Jucato has put that in https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuHardyProposals [17:02] as I said I see no problem is doing wrong things, a lot of people criticised systemsettings at the begining [17:03] nosrednaekim: just send it to me and I can commit [17:03] but there is no chance to make dolphin ans strigi stable on kde3 [17:03] Lure: ok. [17:03] I really prefer a rollback to something that works [17:03] (and they still criticize kss... and will continue to do so in KDE4 :P) [17:03] I don't like beagle, but kerry is really a better solution to strigi on kde3, and konqueror should stay the default, that's my point [17:04] I'm not proud of this since I am the guy who proposed dolphin [17:04] you were?!?! [17:04] but I must say that I was wrong [17:04] Jucato: yep [17:04] * Jucato gets the torches and pitchforks [17:04] :P [17:04] I made the suggestion, then we gave an attempt [17:04] I even am the guy who packaged d3lphin ;) [17:05] but I must say that that was a bad idea ! [17:05] Tonio_: there's the added damage to the real Dolphin's reputation resulting from the confusion (seele's blog post) [17:05] so yes, we have to consider what is better for an lts, and definately konqueror is [17:05] kde4's dolphin rocks.. [17:05] nixternal: once kde4.0 the final release is tagged, will the importance of getting those packages out go up? [17:05] Jucato: true, that's my biggest concern for now [17:06] Jucato: but the idea was nice at the begining, make the transition to kde3 easy by including some of the changes to kde3 [17:06] the idea was nice, the result is just bad [17:06] I even would suggest a gutsy update to rollback to konqueror by default [17:06] we have good ideas.. sometimes the implementation just doesn't work out (hidden-root anyone?) [17:06] (and media:/ to /media) [17:06] Jucato: hey... I like /media [17:06] media:/ to /media was a super idea [17:07] we couldn't guess it would had more problem than it resolved [17:07] nosrednaekim: like I said, great ideas, but implementations fall short [17:07] CPrgmSwR2: I hope so [17:07] but as I said, kubuntu has ALWAYS experimented new things [17:07] Jucato: never had a problem with /media. [17:07] some were succesfull, as for example the konqueror simplification [17:07] kde4 konqueror is almost like our konqueror now [17:07] nosrednaekim: apparently everyone else had :) [17:07] we influented this, and we can be proud of this [17:07] Tonio_: I like the experimentation of Kubuntu, but we should at the least have pulled strigi [17:07] except the menus are still complete :P [17:08] Tonio_: and system settings too. [17:08] but we cannot stay an experimenting distro all the time [17:08] nixternal: I have still having issues install kde from svn [17:08] nosrednaekim: yeah, and lots of other things [17:08] specially on an LTS! [17:08] so we can be proud of experimenting things as we do [17:08] I installed kdesupport but I still get --> CMake Error: Soprano version 1.96.0 is too old. Please install 1.97.1 or newer [17:08] CPrgmSwR2: then you need to svn co the kdesupport/soprano folder and then build it [17:08] I did [17:08] we sa in french : [17:08] "il n'y a que quand on ne fait rien qu'on ne fait pas de conneries !" [17:09] translation? [17:09] we say in english: [17:09] "WHAT?" :p [17:09] no pain no gain? no guts no glory? [17:09] means "the only way of not doing bullshits is just doing nothing!" [17:09] or just wtf? [17:09] aaaah [17:09] nixternal: I installed the entire kdesupport [17:09] hahah [17:09] so we have to experiment :) [17:09] hrmm [17:09] CPrgmSwR2: is it dying on kdebase? [17:09] why did we decide to remove the /.hidden file? [17:09] expect we must admit our errors and rollback if necessary [17:09] and when? [17:09] nixternal: kdelibs [17:09] my memory is failing me [17:09] hrmm [17:09] strigi isn't activated by default, but d3lphin is [17:10] so dolphin must be removed [17:10] I am at the kdebase update now and it is going fine [17:10] imho of course :) [17:10] I just updated kdelibs and kdepimlibs w/o any issues [17:10] I am stuck at the kdelibs module [17:10] let's rediscuss that in a meeting and vote again [17:10] Tonio_: I am all for that [17:10] * jpatrick too [17:10] nixternal do you have soprano-dev installed too? [17:10] * nixternal would like to point to the meeting where we voted, note my -1 on it :) [17:10] CPrgmSwR2: -dev is what you need [17:11] to build with [17:11] Hmm.... [17:11] I want to work on kollagame but I can't because I cannot find a good kde4 build environment [17:11] Tonio_: there's a small problem about strigi even if not activated by default [17:12] it seems to me we're starting to be a distribution of cowards, removing features we implemented for the last release [17:12] Tonio_: it's still the default action for Find Files/Folderes and searching in Konqueror [17:12] Jucato: I seem to remember that there is a meeting toonight [17:12] /.hidden file was completely functional, yet someone decided to remove it [17:12] Jucato: but I can't find the confirmation [17:12] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings [17:12] nothing there [17:13] didn't push through [17:13] Jucato: hum true, so strigi must leave too :) [17:13] someone removed /media fixes so we're still stuck with the IMHO confusing two medias: media:/ and /media [17:13] man, building kde4 and running pbuilder on revu items is sloooooooow [17:13] mhb: I could argue that we're also being cowards if we don't accept our mistakes [17:13] mhb: I did the removal :) [17:13] mhb: nothing confusing [17:13] just rollback, as this was an error too ;) [17:14] well it confuses me, furthermore, now when I insert a CD and boot gutsy, it won't find it [17:14] never happened with feisty [17:14] mhb: removing .hidden was needed. it was utterly useless and confusing to everyone. it also impacted everything else. for example the gtk-fileselectors. [17:14] mhb: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Kubuntu/Meetings/Minutes/2006-12-07 [17:14] mhb: it also tells us to be more careful in implementing new stuff, that we test it as much as we can and gather as much useful/sensible/constructive user feedback as possible [17:16] fdoving: it was a bold step forward in usability, if you ask me. From the (user) discussions I've read, I've gained the feeling that people seem to agree with that opinion. [17:17] as with all bold steps, it was controversial, but the users seemed more happy than say the current strigi [17:17] not to everyone : I proposed to remove dolphin BEFORE gutsy was released [17:17] I just suggested to test it during the dev cycle [17:17] * Jucato wonders where mhb gets his user feedback data [17:17] but it looks like I couldn't stop the train I started ;) [17:18] mhb: there were like 50 bugreports about it. users considered it a bug, not a feature. [17:18] .. many did, anyway. [17:18] including me. [17:18] yeah, let's remove all software that has > 50 bugs. [17:18] mhb: there goes k3b [17:18] and adept... [17:20] what I mean is okay, we're doing stuff that makes some users angry, that's understandable, look, as a development team we cannot agree on whether D3lphin was good or not, and we tend to change opinions fast [17:20] Jucato: yeah but for adept we don't have any other alternative [17:20] :) [17:21] Jucato: for dolphin there is konqueror [17:21] * Jucato was just trying to be funny :P [17:21] that makes a hudge difference [17:21] but what we're doing for like 3rd time is taking a bold step, then retreating because some users or developers dislike it [17:21] instead of fixing bugs [17:21] and I would say that dolphin is just like systemsettings [17:21] $if kde4 was planned in 2 years, I would suggest to work on dolphin [17:21] but with kde4 commin with hardy+1 and hardy beeing lts, we have to remove it [17:22] or making the transition painless ... okay, not everyone liked /.hidden, let's have a graphical setting to remove it! Someone doesn't like D3lphin, he can remove it and set Konqueror as the default for all eternity with just one click! [17:22] like I said hours ago, I'm fine with keeping D3lphin *IF* we're willing to support if for 3 years by ourselves. [17:22] I wouldn't mind keeping dolphin and improving it if we had time for this [17:22] (that's not still considering how much damage it's doing for KDE 4) [17:22] shipping d3lphin is fine, having it as default for all directories makes trouble for me. [17:22] Jucato: true [17:23] Jucato: are they going to reward us for the damage they've done with the KDE4 delay? Or are they going to repay us for the fact that we're stuck in a freeze for almost two years now because KDE4 takes several years? [17:23] mhb: true [17:24] kde3 isn't evolving for a long time now [17:24] * Jucato shrugs [17:24] damages of kubuntu to kde4 are not that big [17:24] we have somehow dealt with that. I'm sorry. [17:24] it delay it 10 times bigger problem [17:24] BUT, we are not supporting dolphin, nobody takes care of functionnalities and bugs [17:24] so let's remove it and stop going the wrong way [17:25] not to interrupt this exciting discussion, but with diff, do you put the before-modification file first or second? [17:25]