[05:07] 2 [14:30] kwwii, a dark theme using clearlooks http://gnomelook.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/69913-1.jpg [14:30] maybe we could ship this as an alternate dark theme to the light one [14:46] <_MMA_> Cimi: You have to think about disk size and support. [14:46] ? [14:46] <_MMA_> Also, how does that theme work with Firefox, OO.o and Gnome-control-center? Theres are issues we have with Ubuntu Studio. [14:47] _MMA_, obviusly a dark theme won't NEVER be ready for a default desktop theme [14:47] <_MMA_> Cimi: Shipping multiple themes adds to the disk size. They are really tight now. And adding another theme will gemerate more theme-related bug-reports. [14:47] but as an alternative [14:48] to the guys that code [14:48] than develop most of the day [14:48] etc etc [14:51] <_MMA_> Cimi: Once the design direction is settled I think its best to have the people that want to help, work on the main idea/theme that working on alternatives. There's so much work to be done most people dont even realize. :( [14:52] I've rewritten the murrine code actually [14:52] it's a lot moe polished and bug-free [14:52] *more [14:52] I've an svn repository [14:52] <_MMA_> And while people are putting out cool examples I am pessimistic as to how many will really help. :( [14:52] http://viewvc.intilinux.com/viewvc.cgi/cimi/murrine/ [14:53] <_MMA_> Cimi: Cool. Ill have our guy update. [14:53] http://viewvc.intilinux.com/viewvc.cgi/cimi/murrine/ChangeLog?revision=19&view=markup [14:53] here's the current changelog between 0.53.1 [14:54] * _MMA_ looks. [15:03] kwwii: ping [15:10] <_MMA_> Hi andreasn. [15:12] hi! [15:12] what's up? [15:13] <_MMA_> Not much. Trying not to get sicked into Ubuntu work. ;) [15:13] <_MMA_> *sucked [15:14] <_MMA_> Trying to just enjoy the Saturday. [15:17] :) [15:17] Cimi: Ping [15:21] rexbron, pong [15:22] Cimi: _MMA_ pointed out that the 0.6 changelog has been commited to svn, is there an eta on an official tarball? [15:22] for murrine [15:22] nothing now [15:23] but when I'll make a make distcheck there will be the tarball === Skiessl is now known as Skiessi [16:25] re [16:26] hi Cimi [16:27] Cimi: what is the name of that dark theme, I would like to try it out [16:28] looks like I get to read up on the art list tonight [16:28] missed a lot sleeping all day :p [16:30] <_MMA_> :) [17:13] kwwii, did you read my second email? [17:50] Cimi: yeah, just read it...I'll see what I can do - I imagine we can work something out [17:53] kwwii, I've in mind the idea of adding a second style for murrine where the user can specify the gradients of every widget [17:53] something like [17:53] top_highlight_ratio = 1.1 [17:53] center_highlight_ratio = 1.0 [17:54] bottom_highlight_ratio = 0.9 [17:54] Cimi: wow, that sounds like a good idea if done properly...where would the colors come from? [17:54] the colors are gtkrc colors [17:54] bg[normall] etc etc [17:54] right [17:54] I gotta eat dinner now, but I will be back in a bit [17:54] the ratio is read by cairo to enlight them [17:55] ok [18:48] re [18:50] we [22:14] So, they say there are plans for Gobuntu's artwork, right? [22:17] <_MMA_> Viper550: Kinda slow on the weekends but yes, I think its up for submissions. [22:18] I was told there was already plans...let me check [22:22] _MMA_ http://bay01.imagebay.com/_upload/img/23/gobuntugreenwip.jpg [22:23] <_MMA_> Whats that? [22:23] Aurora engine is too slow for a desktop proposal [22:24] it is the slowest engine ever written :) [22:24] my idea for a possible look for Gobuntu. We can use ClearLooks too [22:24] <_MMA_> Viper550: kwwii will be the best guy to talk to. [22:24] Clearlooks has exactly the same look (with better scrollbars) and 200% speed [22:24] yeah, looks smoother [22:24] exactly [22:25] Not Ubuntulooks, personally, I think we should give ClearLooks another try in a Gnome-based Ubuntu [22:26] Though, is Xubuntu using the new gloss mode for Clearlooks? [22:26] personally, I've spent more time when developing Cleralooks for gnome 2.20 than what I've done for my murrine engine [22:26] Viper550, it is using murrine [22:26] btw [22:26] Oh, cool [22:26] the glossy I've added to clearlooks [22:26] <_MMA_> We really have to wait until kwwii has his meeting with Mark. We'll know what we can do after that. [22:26] is using similar gradients to the one I've added to murrine [22:27] no wonder it suspicially looked alot like that [22:27] also, I was thinking a different wallpaper obviously. [22:28] Viper550, I'm the copyright owner of murrine so I can do what I like :D [22:28] I know, and it's GPL [22:32] Have you seen that new Nodoka one? [22:32] you mean murrine 0.53.1 with a different name? [22:33] really? [22:33] yes [22:34] take the nodoka theme [22:34] change the engine to murrine [22:34] and you'll have a similar theme [22:34] (better looking) [22:34] (without the ugly progressbars) [22:34] the code is 99% the same [22:35] with a different name [22:35] replace "murrine" "nodoka" [22:35] oh. [22:35] I didn't know that, looks like Murrine but with a bit more of a ClearLooks like style. [22:36] <_MMA_> Viper550: Funny thing is you can do just that in a gtkrc file. [22:36] really....? wow. [22:37] <_MMA_> Yeah. Ill get you the example a guy from Ars showed me at UDS. [22:37] Cimi: murrine is based on clearlooks, isn't it? [22:38] murrine is based off candido, which I think was based off clearlooks [22:38] so what is nodoka based on/off? [22:38] nodoka is based off murrine [22:39] http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Interviews/MartinSourada he did explain his rationale though [22:41] <_MMA_> Viper550: http://arstechnica.com/journals/linux.ars/2007/08/21/how-to-make-a-gtk-theme-that-uses-multiple-theme-engines [22:42] Viper550, I'm the creator of Candido, Murrine and Clearlooks (since 2.18 but expecially 2.20 as you can see the improvements) [22:42] ok, so the author said it IS based on murrine. well i've read much about nodoka but i never read the word murrine. after reading cimis words here i thought the nodoka author did NOT give credit and such... [22:43] Also, I do love that new feature of being able to specify your own colors for GTK themes in the Appearance menu, it's awesome [22:43] Cimi: you did a great job for gnome, but this nodoka guy was in the news, why didn't you? [22:44] in which news? [22:44] you mean gnome 2.20 release notes? [22:44] <_MMA_> Cimi: I think what we "see" are "changes" to Clearlooks. I'm sure there are "improvements" under the hood though. ;) [22:45] _MMA_, what do you mean? [22:46] <_MMA_> Cimi: That personally I dont like the "look" of the newer Clearlooks. I like your work on Murrine better but Im sure "code-wise" Clearlooks has "improved". [22:47] Cimi: i've read much about nodoka theme on news sites (i don't remember which, but distrowatch for example) but i saw your name only because of your engines or on the gnome devel sites... [22:50] I'm not interested in fame :) [22:50] :) ok thats cool ... well, for me you are a gnome-style-hero :D because you made it much more beautiful! i just want to say thank you cimi [22:50] thanks lukeen :) [22:51] _MMA_, the look of newer clearlooks is absolutely amazing. I'm no longer using murrine since april [22:51] <_MMA_> "amazing" is an opinion. ;) [22:51] btw from a code point of vew [22:51] of course ;) [22:52] and I guess people generally share my ideas [22:52] but I'm not afraid if someone says that Murrine is better :D [22:52] it's a compliment in both cases [22:52] ehehe [22:53] <_MMA_> The big complaint I heard about the new Clearlooks at UDS was the gradient on the tabs. In the default state I guess. I dont know how much they can be tweaked. [22:54] Cimi: dont become boastful ;) [22:55] well my opinion is: clearlooks is really beautiful now, but, i miss something more unique, you know, something people keep in mind. dont you think? [22:55] _MMA_, wait 1 second [22:55] http://www.cimitan.com/blog/2007/11/05/nuove-tabs-per-clearlooks-gummy-non-uccidetemi/ [22:55] sorry for the italian [22:57] nodoka or murrine? :) http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/6870/schermatakc8.png [22:57] looks more like Nodoka [22:57] or maybe you mixed it up [22:57] Viper550, it is murrine with some options in the gtkrc [22:58] you can get the same look [22:58] gonna experiment with the 2 engines [22:58] Viper550, 1 engine [22:58] the engine is the same with a different name [22:58] and different default options? [22:58] no [22:59] but for example [22:59] nodoka engine [22:59] ignores the highlight_ratio [22:59] hilight_ratio = 0.909090909 in murrine [22:59] same look [23:00] oh [23:00] in fact [23:00] it's really hard for me to read [23:01] "So, now I think I know that the differences are too significant to merge with Murrine, we removed a lot of original code and added a lot of ours, the engines went different ways, if we'd try to merge, it would lead to losses in rendering speed." [23:01] too significant? [23:01] "and added a lot of ours" [23:01] wtf???? [23:01] <_MMA_> lol. Cimi. I was gonna ask exactly that. The "hilight_ratio" thing. For Hardy we're going for a flatter look but I wanted to still use Murrine. [23:01] even THAT confuses me. maybe "ours" in his own? [23:01] lol [23:02] i haven't received NOTHING [23:02] NO EMAILS FROM HIM [23:02] NO ONE [23:02] nothing as [23:02] "thanks for murrine" [23:02] nothing [23:02] nothing [23:02] nothing [23:02] <_MMA_> Well email their list explaining it all and see what they say. [23:03] I'm really bad in english... [23:03] <_MMA_> At the very least its yet another package they have to needlessly maintain. [23:03] I will probably eplain it with wrong words [23:03] also, where the heck are the distro packages on your site? I can't find them [23:03] causing them to hate or blame me :) [23:03] I use Gutsy [23:04] nm [23:04] packages for what? [23:04] it's in universe! yay! [23:04] murrine [23:04] yes [23:04] rexbron package it [23:05] <_MMA_> Yeah. We'll get it updated to .60 soon. [23:05] _MMA_, would you like to help me to write the right words for nodoka guys? [23:06] <_MMA_> Hmm... :) Ok. Write up something and we'll go from there. [23:06] also, do the themes on your site support Gnome's new custom color support? [23:06] ;) [23:06] Viper550, no one [23:06] You know how to use that? [23:06] I expect murrine 0.60 to have the colorscheme support [23:06] <_MMA_> You could simple send a email to their list asking why and explain that their changes were unneeded. Showing examples. [23:06] Viper550, of course [23:07] we are now working to implement the colorscheme support [23:07] <_MMA_> *simply [23:07] like in kde for example [23:07] various colorschemes for each theme [23:07] I mean, in the appearance properties on Gnome 2.20, you can specify custom colors without having to hack into the file. [23:08] most of the colors are now "aliases", and can be changed by the user [23:08] I perfectly now [23:08] I'm writing themes everyday :) [23:08] color sheme support is absolutely necessary IMHO [23:09] http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1431/schemesrp3.png [23:09] this is a screenshot from the guy who is implementing it [23:09] will this saved shemes be global? or per theme? [23:10] global, you can also have a default color scheme per theme [23:10] per theme [23:10] no [23:10] per theme [23:10] very cool [23:10] it's a choice [23:10] you can add [23:10] colorscheme.ini [23:10] into your theme [23:10] and the schemes specified [23:11] oh [23:11] will be listed into the combobox you can see on the right [23:11] <_MMA_> And Murrine .6 will support this? [23:11] so you're going beyond what Ubuntu has right now...awesome! [23:11] _MMA_, this is a gtk/gnome things [23:11] also murrine/nodoka will support it [23:11] <_MMA_> Cimi: Thats what I asked. [23:11] every engine [23:11] except the pixpuf [23:12] *pixbuf [23:12] you just need a gtkrc with colorscheme support [23:12] and a version of Gnome with that option inside the Appearance settings [23:13] * _MMA_ makes a note to add this to his Ubuntu Studio's gtkrc. [23:13] <_MMA_> Viper550: Its already in Ubuntu. [23:13] Gutsy? [23:13] no [23:13] _MMA_, in the screenhot [23:13] oh so this is for Hardy? [23:13] there's a combobox [23:13] <_MMA_> NO! [23:13] Viper550, yes [23:14] Okay...can't wait! Makes sense to launch it on Hardy [23:14] <_MMA_> Viper550: Its in Gutsy now. Not all engines support it. [23:14] gutsy has gnome 2.20 [23:14] <_MMA_> And? [23:14] it only support colorscheme [23:14] not the one I've just linked to viper [23:14] with a lot of colorschemes for each theme [23:15] did you see the combobox on the right? [23:15] this will get into 2.22? [23:15] sure [23:15] k [23:15] _MMA_, I'm thinking to add a new style for murrine [23:15] which will be much more custimizable [23:16] <_MMA_> Viper550: Are asking for "Global" support or "per theme"? [23:16] if mark will support the development I will take a look into it [23:16] Global support could be nice, and per theme would be good too [23:16] _MMA_, for example [23:16] <_MMA_> Viper550: Global support is there now. [23:17] I want to add ability to specify single gradient capability [23:17] <_MMA_> Cimi: Do what you want. Dont base you decision on what Mark wants. [23:17] so there's like a .colors or something? [23:17] _MMA_, I must follow mark's decisions [23:17] <_MMA_> ? [23:17] <_MMA_> No you dont. [23:18] <_MMA_> Why? :) [23:18] kwwii said this to me [23:18] he said me and him will follow mark's decisions [23:18] <_MMA_> lol. No. Trust me. They might ask yo uto add things but you arent bound by anything. [23:19] <_MMA_> Unless he's paying you for development. :) [23:19] in fact [23:19] I will help him if he will pay me :) [23:20] he payed for the human icons [23:20] <_MMA_> Sure, but you arent bound by anything so add the features you want. [23:20] <_MMA_> Viper550: Global support is there: http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/Screenshot.png [23:20] I think more gradient support for murrine will be amazing [23:20] <_MMA_> Sure. Id like to see it. [23:21] uhh, I mean be able to not have themes specify custom color schemes, but have a "global pool" of presets like on KDE [23:21] but at the same time I can't work for days and weeks for free [23:21] just for him [23:22] <_MMA_> Sure. Thing is since we're syncing the package from Debian now we have to update sooner and the version will be harder to update. [23:22] <_MMA_> If it were a Ubuntu package it would give us more time. [23:24] what do you mean with it? [23:24] I lost the connection between murrine, money for development, and debian :D [23:26] <_MMA_> "_MMA_: Sure. Thing is since we're syncing the package from Debian now we have to update sooner and the version will be harder to update. [23:26] <_MMA_> _MMA_: If it were a Ubuntu package it would give us more time." [23:26] I was trying to make scrollbar color specified with @fg_color but it didn't work [23:26] Viper550, new murrine version will support it [23:26] oh [23:27] but gtk version must be bumped up to 2.12 [23:27] so everyone with gnome 2.18 will be out [23:27] also, I did hack up a "murrine theme" that can use the custom color schemes....sacrificing the scrollbar color support [23:27] I just took ClearLooks and changed it to the Murrine engine [23:28] Viper550, for scrollbar support specified by bg_selected [23:28] just wait 0.60 [23:28] Okay [23:28] for the ability to specify your symbolic color [23:28] i.e: [23:29] scrollbar_color = darker (@bg_Selected_color) [23:29] * _MMA_ sticks with Murrine because he can define 3 colors for tabs. (though this might have been added to Clearlooks. [23:29] I MUST require gtk 2.12 [23:29] as gtk 2.10 and lower are not supporting symcolic colors in the engine section of the gtkrc [23:30] _MMA_, ? [23:31] <_MMA_> No sorry. Got that wrong. 1 color for the background. 1 for inactive tab and 1 for active. [23:31] <_MMA_> Gives me 3 depths. [23:32] same as clearlooks :\ [23:32] btw for a dark theme as ubuntulooks maybe murrine is a good choice [23:32] <_MMA_> New or old? [23:32] <_MMA_> ? [23:32] bg[normal] is supported by both [23:32] bg[selected] by both [23:32] <_MMA_> Bad English. :) [23:32] bg[actiev] by both [23:33] sorry [23:33] glazestyle 4 is epic. [23:34] I'd like to add the ability do change the upper, mid, mid-lower and lower gradient of all widgets [23:35] then to set the position of the highlight [23:35] for example [23:35] and customizable hilight curves hehe ? [23:35] I can put on the top of the button the glossy effect [23:35] <_MMA_> Cimi: Like I said "though this might have been added to Clearlooks." [23:35] <_MMA_> "New" Clearlooks does this now it looks. "Old" didnt. [23:35] lukeen, this is nearly impossible [23:36] _MMA_, of course, I've added it in april :) [23:36] Cimi: much of hard work, but not impossible ;) [23:36] lukeen, do you have some experience in cairo drawings? [23:36] no [23:36] so [23:36] ;) [23:37] I must blame you [23:37] it's not so simple [23:37] i did not mean it really seriously :) [23:38] think you could add an option for the ubuntulooks like scrollbars? [23:38] and i sure belief that it's not simple [23:38] Viper550, no [23:38] ubuntulooks is imho ugly from the first to the last widget [23:39] mmm [23:39] <_MMA_> I dont think Ubuntulooks is gonna be used as alot of talk at UDS mentioned using Murrine. But who knows. [23:39] checkbuttons are nice [23:39] _MMA_, kwwii said to me Murrine was chosen [23:40] <_MMA_> "Cimi: ubuntulooks is imho ugly from the first to the last widget" <- An example on language differences. (can be seen as mean words) :) [23:41] _MMA_, could you write an email to the fedora lists? :D [23:41] Cimi: what do you think: which engine has cleaner code, which is faster? clearlooks or murrine? [23:41] <_MMA_> Cimi: Sure but Mark can always make Ken change his mind. Thats why I said "But who knows?" [23:41] _MMA_, ok [23:42] <_MMA_> Cimi: Well as I dont know all the details I think you should start the 1st email and I can help revise (better the language) it. [23:42] lukeen, clearner code: Clearlooks [23:42] faster (with flat themes) Murrine [23:43] rounded themes Clearlooks [23:43] but Murrine 0.60 will have a very polished code [23:43] I've spent a day in polishing it [23:43] nice to hear murrine developmet is continuing [23:44] lukeen, I've a subversion repository [23:44] hehe? ;) [23:44] http://viewvc.intilinux.com/viewvc.cgi/cimi/murrine/ [23:50] how do you make the buttons on Murrine look like the Nonoko ones? [23:50] I mean nodoka [23:51] hilight_ratio = 0.909090 [23:51] in the murrine options [23:53] on what button style? [23:53] ? [23:53] eh [23:53] yes [23:53] nm [23:53] glazestyle = 0 [23:53] glaze style 1 and that .909090 [23:55] Viper550, seen the magic? :D [23:55] awesome. [23:55] lol [23:55] we truly need to re bringup Murrine on ubuntu-artwork mailing list [23:56] I'm working on a little mockup with this glossy look and the Human colors [23:56] Viper550, there are a lot of improvements in stability [23:56] over 0.53.1 [23:56] in the svn version [23:56] cool [23:56] in fact [23:56] <_MMA_> Viper550: Trust me. Its being looked at. [23:57] both ubuntulooks aurora and nodoka [23:57] have leaks [23:57] I'm going to try modding the only original part of nodoka [23:57] and some malloc problems [23:57] the metacity [23:57] which imho is really poor =) [23:57] <_MMA_> Viper550: But I would wait till kwwii has the final word on the direction for making too many mock-ups. [23:57] exaclty [23:57] I'm just preparing for that moment [23:57] actually it's just a waste of time [23:58] I will expect a lot of forks from murrine 0.60 :D [23:58] <_MMA_> At UDS we were all sure (including kwwii) that the theme was gonna be orange and black. Now brown is staying in there to some degree. [23:59] orange and black.....that would have been uber...or better for Ubuntu Studio [23:59] <_MMA_> Well kwwii made jokes he was gonna steal it. ;) [23:59] yeah, maybe add it to the repos when Halloween comes around XD [23:59] <_MMA_> But everyone is free to do whatever.