/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2007/11/18/#ubuntu-artwork.txt

Viper550I so wanna see ubuntu-themes-ubuntuween00:00
Cimi_MMA_, I've convinced kwwii after the uds that a dark theme will be the end of ubuntu :)00:01
lukeenlooks like a new version of aurora was just released...00:01
Cimimaybe slower and bad coded than the previous ;)00:02
Cimiaurora it's a pain between hacks and dangerous things00:02
_MMA_I dont think so at all. Dark themes can be done. We've proved that. It came down to Mark not wanting it for some reason. A misscommunication somewhere.00:02
lukeenguys: what do you think about this icon theme? http://bomahy.nl/hylke/blog/ubuntu-icon-theme/00:02
Cimi_MMA_, please don't tell me ubuntulooks is a great theme...00:03
Cimilukeen, too saturated and child-ish00:03
_MMA_Where did I say that?00:03
CimiWe've proved tha00:03
Cimit00:03
_MMA_"Ubuntu Studio"00:03
Cimisorry00:03
Cimiubuntu studio00:04
Viper550wow, those icons are hot!00:04
Cimiimho ubuntustudio is not a *great* black theme00:04
_MMA_"Dark themes can be done. We've (Ubuntu Studio) proved that."00:04
Cimiexatly00:04
CimiI've said ubuntulooks but i was meaning ubuntustudio00:04
Cimisorry00:04
Cimiit's a way better than nodoka and ubuntu default theme00:05
Viper550also, I like that cute Firefox icon he also made.00:05
Cimibut I won't chose it as default00:05
_MMA_Cimi: Its still widely regarded as the best out there minus some app issues the dont use GTK in standard ways.00:05
CimiViper550, firefox 3 will have a tango theme00:05
Cimi_MMA_, a lot of guys like the vista-like look00:05
CimiI personally don't like it00:06
lukeenff3 should look more like the os it is running on00:06
Viper550so on Linux, Firefox will take on the Gnome icon theme chosen?00:06
Cimieven if is using my engine :)00:06
Cimibtw tastes are tastes00:06
_MMA_blah. The gloss on the Feisty theme was not on purpose. We had that in the works since Vista was Longhorn.00:06
CimiViper550, yes00:06
_MMA_In Gutsy the gloss is gone.00:06
Viper550awesome00:07
_MMA_Hardy will loose it totally.00:07
Cimi_MMA_, also for panels?00:07
_MMA_Yes.00:07
lukeenglossy is outdated i've read...00:07
Cimigreat00:07
_MMA_http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/Screenshot-1.png00:07
_MMA_https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming00:09
Cimi_MMA_, much better00:09
Cimireally00:09
Cimiin any case00:09
Cimithe human eye can't switch between a dark background to bright colors00:10
Cimii.e. black bg and white base00:10
Cimiit will lose contrast and sharpness00:10
Cimiand the eye will be stressed more than it should00:10
lukeenyes, dark themes just bring to much problems....00:10
_MMA_troy_s: Wanna handle this one. ^^^00:10
Cimi_MMA_, for example see LCD panels like Aquos by Sharp (TM)00:11
troy_s_MMA_: Go for me my brother.00:11
Cimithere's a technolosy to improve contrast by enlightnening on the side of the tv00:12
Cimiso the eye will see more contrast00:12
_MMA_troy_s: Your much more eloquent/knowledgeable on this one.00:12
Viper550hmm, for Hardy and Ubuntu Studio, I'm gonna try and get them onto Crux00:12
_MMA_Crux?00:12
Cimi_MMA_, I've a Pantone huey for my monitor00:13
Cimiit automatically adjust gamma and color ranges00:13
Cimiby controlling the ambient light00:13
Viper550that metalish purple theme00:13
Viper550it still comes with Gnome after all these years. They even updated it to Cairo00:13
CimiViper550, horrible for my tastes :D00:13
troy_s_MMA_: What were we talking about?  lol.00:13
Viper550but for Ubuntu Studio, it looks a bit like a professional editing application theme00:14
_MMA_Cimi: There's a reason why pro audio/video/photo apps use colors like we do. Or why we copy them rather.00:14
Cimi_MMA_, a WHOLE dark theme00:14
Cimiis much better than a light theme00:14
Viper550but, Crux by default isn't "too dark"00:14
Cimias it is much more relaxing00:15
_MMA_troy_s: "Cimi: the human eye can't switch between a dark background to bright colors. i.e. black bg and white base. it will lose contrast and sharpness. and the eye will be stressed more than it should"00:15
troy_s_MMA_: If you are aiming to be 'professional' the most 'professionally' close (say to a Nuke / Shake) is Blender in terms of looks.00:15
Cimi_MMA_, blender00:15
Viper550Their model are programs like Avid Studio00:15
Cimiardour00:15
Cimiand other apps00:15
Cimiare TOTALLY black00:15
Cimithey don't have contrast between BLACK and WHITE00:15
Cimii'm saying that the problems in the ubuntustudio theme is just that contrast00:16
Cimiwith is bad for the human eye00:16
troy_s_MMA_: Any time I see the word 'eyestress' it conjures mythical beliefs.  There has been countless research done that the notions of 'eyestrain' are rubbish when it comes to 'looking'.  Moving the eye around a lot will strain it and actually make it fatigue.  But that is rolling your orbital from one side to the other, not just moving it around a screen say.00:16
CimiI've nothing against dak themes00:16
_MMA_Cimi: I dont agree at all sorry.00:16
troy_sCimi: Ardour isn't a professional application though so I would argue that it isn't a wonderful comparison point.00:16
Cimi_MMA_, maybe you don't have a monitor like mines00:16
Cimi1500:1 of contrast00:17
troy_sCimi: Perhaps comparing to Nuke or ProTools would be.00:17
Cimiblack/white is a bit harder for me00:17
Cimitroy_s, I've said for colors00:17
_MMA_I use this theme for hours on end for over a year. I just need links to back up the "eye strain" thing. ;)00:17
Cimia whole dark theme00:17
Cimilike adobe aperture00:17
troy_sIts an aesthetic.  And granted aesthetics are volatile grounds for debates, in the end, the whole of the argument is aesthetic and subjective.00:17
Cimithis is not an aesthetic thing00:18
Cimias I've said00:18
Cimithere are a lot of strumentation (professional)00:18
troy_s1500:1 contrast is nothing.00:18
troy_sCRTs deliver 10x that00:18
Cimitroy_s, I've a crt too00:19
Cimiwhich is more harder to live with ubuntustudio theme00:19
_MMA_Viper550: Just talk to me here as I am also coordinating the art for Ubuntu Studio here. (or in a PM) I dont sit in #ubuntustudio on the weekends.00:19
Viper550Okay00:19
CimiI was saying00:19
Cimithere are a lof ot strumentation00:19
Viper550I was thinking about Crux as their engine since it's underrated, and it's also kinda got that look they want00:20
Cimithat sets colors and contrast by seeing whole luminance of the area00:20
Cimiand the ambient light00:20
_MMA_Viper550: "their" and "they"?00:20
Viper550they as in ubuntustudio00:20
_MMA_Viper550: Oh. You dont know. Im the lead on it.00:20
_MMA_I wrote all the WIKI pages. "C.Kontros"00:21
Cimi_MMA_, you should fix the colors in the comboboxes00:21
Viper550Oh, cool. Anyway, Crux does kinda have that "media application" look00:21
Cimisee the gaim state combobox00:21
Cimiit has a dark text color00:21
Cimishould be white I guess00:21
_MMA_Cimi: I like the black myself but can that be changed?00:22
Cimiof course00:22
Cimiin the gtkrc00:22
_MMA_Cimi: Once .6 is in the repos Ill get with you to look over some of the text colors. I do think some of it can be tweaked.00:23
Cimi_MMA_, I'm not thinking of releasing 0.600:24
CimiI'd like to wait kwwii directions00:24
_MMA_Ok. Either way. once it does get in we can look at the Ubuntu Studio text colors then.00:25
Cimimmm00:25
Cimiimho00:25
Cimiit's just00:25
Cimi_MMA_, where's the gtkrc?00:26
_MMA_We'll mess with it later. ;)00:27
Cimibtw menu_item00:27
Cimiand fgprelight00:27
Cimiprobably00:27
* _MMA_ stops neglecting his family and shuts the laptop lid. Later guys.00:30
troy_sCimi: Being an expert in GTK coding, how easy would it be to create something akin to Mist but with rounded (very slight) corners (somewhere about 3 in Murrine radius)00:31
troy_s?00:31
Cimiyou can do this with murrine00:31
troy_s!?00:31
Cimihilight_ratio = 0.90909000:31
Cimigradients = FALSE00:31
Cimiroundness = 300:31
Cimithta's it00:31
troy_sCimi: Do you have a screenshot?!00:31
Cimitroy_s, try it00:31
troy_sCimi: Erk... ok...00:32
Cimiadd those options in the engine section of the gtkrc00:32
troy_sCimi: That eliminates all of the nasty glossy looks etc?00:32
Cimiyes00:32
troy_sCimi: Keeps it gradient / flat?00:32
troy_sWow.00:32
troy_sHow lovely!00:32
Cimi=)00:32
troy_sok ... I'll need to experiment with it.00:32
_MMA_troy_s: I did this tonight for Ubuntu Studio-Hardy. ;)00:32
troy_sAwsome work by the way Cimi -- great to see you in here.00:32
troy_sMist is a darn strong engine, if it just was a little more 'refined' with antialiased rounded corners etc.00:33
Cimimurrine is very powerful in that way00:33
Cimiprobably the code is more complicated than clearlooks00:33
Cimibut you can do a lot of things in customization00:34
troy_sCimi: If I can do that, I would be elated...00:34
Cimi(obviusly it is complicated you've 100 styles in one engine) :D00:34
troy_sgreets luisbg00:34
Cimione moment troy_s I try00:34
Cimitroy_s, 1: http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/8996/screenshot1tb5.png00:37
Cimijust added those 3 options to a theme00:37
troy_sCimi: Is there a way to create a highlight line?00:38
Cimimmm00:38
troy_sCimi: Being a sort of light direction00:38
troy_sCimi: If it were a rectangle, the left/top would be lighter than the bottom/right for example.00:39
Ciminot with roundness = 300:39
troy_sCimi: No roundness it can do it yes?00:39
Cimiyes00:39
Cimiif I remember well...00:39
Ciminot sure00:39
troy_sCimi: Is that a tricky code bit to get it with roundness?00:39
_MMA_troy_s: http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/UbuntuStudio-Hardy.tar.gz00:39
troy_sCimi: Great wood in the bg by the way00:39
troy_s_MMA_: What is that?00:39
_MMA_Tinkering with Hardy's theme.00:40
troy_s_MMA_: Screenshot?00:40
Cimitroy_s, http://www.cimitan.com/blog/wp-content/new-gummy-tabs-2.png00:40
_MMA_No. The theme.00:40
_MMA_troy_s: just DL and drop in the theme manager.00:40
troy_sCimi: Can you turn the tab 'striping' on and off with Murrine (the blue bar in your screenshot)00:40
Cimino00:41
Cimithose two changes00:41
_MMA_troy_s: I still dont know if it will work with the design direction. I might take the stripes off the menubar.00:41
Cimi(highlight of buttons and tabs)00:41
Cimirequire changes in the code00:41
Ciminot buge changes00:41
Cimibut something00:41
Cimi*huge00:41
troy_sCimi: I am using Glider (nice additions you put in there if I am not mistaken)00:42
troy_sCimi: The ONLY thing I would change on glider is a slight rounding of tabs / buttons.00:42
CimiI haven't worked with glider00:42
troy_sThat's it, but I don't think it is possible with Murrine, is it?00:42
Cimijust Clearlooks00:42
CimiGummy00:42
CimiGLossy00:42
CimiInverted00:42
Cimiand Classic00:43
Cimiand murrine too00:43
troy_sGlider is absolutely perfect from the aesthetic I am working towards... minus the square corners.00:43
troy_sI just don't know how hard it would be to twiddle the engine into supporting radius.00:43
_MMA_troy_s: Glider is a theme?00:43
TheSheepCimi: you have a good chance to monopolize the gtk theme engine market ;)00:43
troy_s_MMA_: Control set... try it.00:44
TheSheephello goys, by the way00:44
* _MMA_ looks.00:44
TheSheepguys00:44
troy_sTheSheep: Greets friend.00:44
CimiI don't like glider00:44
troy_sCimi: It avoids the nasty outline tango mess00:44
troy_sCimi: And it is deadly clean.00:44
troy_sCimi: I just wish it had about a 3 px round.00:44
Cimiit's much more simpler to hack murrine supporting the highlight then rewriting all the glider theme00:45
TheSheepCimi: it's always easier to work with your own code00:46
Ciminot for this00:46
Cimijust because adding the highlight is just few lines00:46
Cimisupporting the radius in glider seems to requrire rewriting things there and there00:47
troy_sCimi: Is that possible?00:47
troy_sCimi: Because the basic look of mist/glider is relatively simple.00:47
Cimitroy_s, the highlight in murrine?00:47
troy_sCimi: Oldschool highlight on two edges/darker on two... nothing else.00:47
Cimitroy_s, candido-like00:47
Cimihttp://candido.berlios.de/pages/engine.php00:48
Cimiby me00:48
troy_sAlmost exactly, but with rounded and no outlines.00:49
Cimiok00:51
Cimioutlines?00:51
Cimiwhere?00:51
troy_sCimi: The outlines around the buttons of a singular colour00:51
troy_sCimi: As in the button would only be say, 1 pixel of highlight and 1 pixel of dark.00:52
Cimiborder?00:52
troy_sYes.00:52
troy_sBorder.00:52
troy_sCan you turn that off in Murrine?00:52
Cimiit will be horrible imho00:52
Cimiand not usable00:52
Cimitheme will lacks of contrast00:52
troy_sCimi: It is what I am looking for.  I have normal vision and am not too worried about outlines on everything.00:53
troy_sCimi: I am assuming the highlights / shade are different enough to provide a single pixel outline.00:53
TheSheepplus shadows help here if your wm supports them00:53
troy_sCimi: The borders clunkify the entire theme too much ala Tango.  It isn't terribly elegant nor professional app looking (which is another reason I require it.)00:54
CimiI've never seen an app without them00:54
troy_sCimi: Glider and such don't use them.00:54
troy_sCimi: And they work fine.  Plus a good deal of the look that I am trying to merge with avoids that Tango look.00:54
Cimiyou're in front of a tango lover :)00:55
troy_sCimi: And on a personal note I despise outlines almost as much as Steve Jobs despises buttons.00:55
troy_sCimi: I hope it isn't viral.  ;)00:55
Cimiahahah00:55
Cimino no :)00:55
troy_sCimi: Is that a flexibility that you could integrate into Murrine or is a huge deal?00:56
Cimifor buttons00:56
Cimiborders00:56
CimiI think I can do it in a clean way by bumping up gtk version to 2.1200:56
troy_sCimi: Yes. All of the 3D elements seem to have borders in most GTK implementations, where say, Mist/Glider avoid them.  Unfortunately, Mist and Glider don't have all of the lovely flexibility of Murrine.00:57
troy_sCimi: How would I track your development?  Are you located on Bzr or on your own servers etc?00:57
Cimisvn00:58
Cimibtw00:58
Cimimurrine wasn't written to a flat look in mind00:59
Cimiso...00:59
Cimii will take a look if I have time00:59
Cimiand obviusly if00:59
Cimias I've said before00:59
Cimimark will sponsor my development00:59
Cimimark = Canonical01:00
CimiI can't work for weeks and absolutely for free and for him =)01:00
troy_sCimi: Oh I wouldn't expect you to do anything really.  I was just wondering how hard it would be etc.01:00
Ciminothing hard01:00
troy_sCimi: As I would probably need to cludge bloody Glider or something.01:00
Cimibut a question of time01:01
troy_sCimi: I would hate to do it, but I would if no other theme / engine / etc. offered the option.01:01
troy_sCimi: I have no clue what Ubuntu main would want from you.01:01
Cimime too :)01:01
CimiI've available if someone ask me to develop and support01:02
Cimibut I can't work for free and for months, supporting everything and coding all day without anything01:02
Cimiit's not fair to me :)01:02
_MMA_Cimi: Ubuntu wants nothing from you specifically. As I understood it Ken is wanting to use Murrine but might want to do things that require coding. Thats it.01:04
_MMA_He just might not be aware of all the options Murrine has.01:04
Cimi_MMA_, ken and me already discussed in pvt a lot of time01:05
_MMA_Lots of things hinge with his meeting with Mark.01:05
Cimiyep01:05
Cimibut as I said01:05
CimiI'm here01:05
Cimiavailable to him01:06
_MMA_Sure. I just dont want you to think you cant make a move without him. Which what it looks like. Just could be a language thing.01:06
Cimiobviusly I don't need any money if I can work one day to do a mod01:06
Cimibut if it will require weeks and support the engine for the rest of the LTS support01:07
_MMA_I doubt it will come to that unless he has you hack on a new "UbuntuLooks".01:07
Cimi_MMA_, I can do anything I like with cairo actually01:08
CimiI'm using cairo in gtk engines from 2 years01:08
CimiI'm very experienced01:08
_MMA_ok.01:08
Cimiso he can also give me a mockup and say "do it!"01:08
CimiI can do if it don't requires hacks in the gtk+ libs01:08
Cimibtw01:09
Cimisaying "i pay you ten dollars for using murrine and helping me with the support"01:09
Cimiis just like saying "thanks for your work"01:10
Cimiand it is very appreciated01:10
CimiI don't want to become rich with this :)01:10
_MMA_Ok. :) Well the family is done what they were doing and now I have to run.01:10
_MMA_later.01:10
Cimitroy_s, do you agree?01:12
kwwiiI agree, if that helps any :-)01:32
Viper550_MMA_ sorry I had to so so suddenly02:27
troy_sCimi: I would gladly donate to the fund if you had an easy way to deal with it.02:32
Cimitroy_s, I guess mark has more money than all freenode users actually :)02:33
troy_sCimi: Well yes, but never underestimate the power of the masses.  Without them, Mark would have zero body of work.02:33
troy_sCimi: Further, if you are receptive to the needs / desires of the public, I would assume that you could generate a good deal of donations.02:34
troy_sor contributions02:34
Viper550hey thar troy_s02:34
troy_sGreetings Viper55002:34
Viper550yeah, back for Hardy, finally divin' back into Ubuntu. I proudly have Gutsy running in VirtualBox on my newer computer (which unfortunately runs Vista)02:34
Cimitroy_s, btw I'm working on your request since 2 hour02:36
Cimis02:36
troy_sCimi: Sheesh.  You didn't have to do that!02:36
Cimitroy_s, you asked me..02:36
TheSheeptroy_s: he just enjoys it ;)02:37
troy_sCimi: I asked if it was a big deal lol.  I never expected you to dive right in.  Needless to say, thanks a bunch.  Wow.02:37
Viper550I have been playing around with Gutsy, love the new color scheme options02:39
Viper550Also, from what I saw, we'll be able to ship multiple preset color schemes on themes02:39
Viper550troy_s: http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1431/schemesrp3.png02:40
troy_sViper550: What am I looking at.  Looks similar to XP had someone wanted to generate a Clearlooks version.02:43
Viper550you'll be able to have multiple color schemes with one "theme"02:44
CimiI've forced a friend of mine to code it :)02:45
Viper550haha...we were also discussing that Fedora 8's new theme is just a "modification" to Murrine02:46
Viper550Also, I know that I am jumping the gun a bit but...02:48
Viper550I'm already getting ideas for Hardy, all the GTK based Hardy distros actually02:49
Viper550hello?03:25
Cimihi Viper55003:34
Viper550I have been working on a side-project for Ubuntu Studio 7.0403:34
Viper550Right now, it's this "hack" of Crux with a dark grey/blue color scheme03:38
CimiI go to bed03:40
Cimibye Viper55003:40
steester anyone here?06:41
rexbronHey all you Ubuntu artists, I have a favour to ask. I have packaged an app for Ubuntu, but it lacks an icon. Any one interested in creating a tango icon for Genpo http://genpo.sf.net ?12:12
Viper550_MMA_?19:50
Viper550hello?20:38
thorwilhi!20:40
thorwilubuntu version symbols: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2007/11/18/ubuntu-version-symbols/ :)20:40
_MMA_Viper550: I'm here. Though, with it being Sunday, I'm not real apt to talk about "Ubuntu stuff". ;)20:59
Viper550Yeah, I finished my GTK theme proposal20:59
Viper550_MMA_ http://bay01.imagebay.com/_upload/img/24/usgutsyfjs.jpg21:04
_MMA_"with it being Sunday, I'm not real apt to talk about "Ubuntu stuff"."21:05
Viper550anyone else here?21:30
TheSheepwhat do you think? http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/corky-flower.png23:09
hbonsTheSheep: pretty cool23:11
TheSheepI'm just afraid that people will make holes in my monitor with tacks XD23:13
_MMA_TheSheep: Do you have a blank one? Id like to use in on my screen.23:23
TheSheep_MMA_: I have one without the flower, with only the logo23:24
_MMA_That would work.23:24
TheSheepwhat do you think? http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/corky.png23:24
TheSheepsorry23:24
TheSheepok, should work23:24
TheSheepI also have the texture, but without some cloning it's pretty repetitive23:25
hbonsthe flower was what made it nice:P23:31
_MMA_TheSheep: Icons with white text are a little hard to read. I like the texture. :) What id Xubuntu going for this time?23:36
TheSheep_MMA_: I have no idea, I'm just a user23:44
TheSheep_MMA_: there is some bikeshedding on the mailing list, but most people seems to like the last theme23:44
TheSheepsomeone suggested the gtango icons23:45
TheSheep(crashbit icons)23:45
_MMA_Xubuntu doesnt even look to have a Hardy page. :(23:48
TheSheepjmak likes to work under cover apparently :)23:49
_MMA_Thats fine. I did the same for Feisty/Gutsy. Most likely Hardy+1 as well.23:50
TheSheep_MMA_: btw, I was inspired by this wallpaper: http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/desk.jpg23:55
TheSheepbut I don't know who made it or even where I got it23:56
_MMA_Nice.23:56
TheSheepI love the effect, and it's really comfortable to work on23:57

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