[00:00] I so wanna see ubuntu-themes-ubuntuween [00:01] _MMA_, I've convinced kwwii after the uds that a dark theme will be the end of ubuntu :) [00:01] looks like a new version of aurora was just released... [00:02] maybe slower and bad coded than the previous ;) [00:02] aurora it's a pain between hacks and dangerous things [00:02] <_MMA_> I dont think so at all. Dark themes can be done. We've proved that. It came down to Mark not wanting it for some reason. A misscommunication somewhere. [00:02] guys: what do you think about this icon theme? http://bomahy.nl/hylke/blog/ubuntu-icon-theme/ [00:03] _MMA_, please don't tell me ubuntulooks is a great theme... [00:03] lukeen, too saturated and child-ish [00:03] <_MMA_> Where did I say that? [00:03] We've proved tha [00:03] t [00:03] <_MMA_> "Ubuntu Studio" [00:03] sorry [00:04] ubuntu studio [00:04] wow, those icons are hot! [00:04] imho ubuntustudio is not a *great* black theme [00:04] <_MMA_> "Dark themes can be done. We've (Ubuntu Studio) proved that." [00:04] exatly [00:04] I've said ubuntulooks but i was meaning ubuntustudio [00:04] sorry [00:05] it's a way better than nodoka and ubuntu default theme [00:05] also, I like that cute Firefox icon he also made. [00:05] but I won't chose it as default [00:05] <_MMA_> Cimi: Its still widely regarded as the best out there minus some app issues the dont use GTK in standard ways. [00:05] Viper550, firefox 3 will have a tango theme [00:05] _MMA_, a lot of guys like the vista-like look [00:06] I personally don't like it [00:06] ff3 should look more like the os it is running on [00:06] so on Linux, Firefox will take on the Gnome icon theme chosen? [00:06] even if is using my engine :) [00:06] btw tastes are tastes [00:06] <_MMA_> blah. The gloss on the Feisty theme was not on purpose. We had that in the works since Vista was Longhorn. [00:06] Viper550, yes [00:06] <_MMA_> In Gutsy the gloss is gone. [00:07] awesome [00:07] <_MMA_> Hardy will loose it totally. [00:07] _MMA_, also for panels? [00:07] <_MMA_> Yes. [00:07] glossy is outdated i've read... [00:07] great [00:07] <_MMA_> http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/Screenshot-1.png [00:09] <_MMA_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/Artwork/OfficialHardyIncoming [00:09] _MMA_, much better [00:09] really [00:09] in any case [00:10] the human eye can't switch between a dark background to bright colors [00:10] i.e. black bg and white base [00:10] it will lose contrast and sharpness [00:10] and the eye will be stressed more than it should [00:10] yes, dark themes just bring to much problems.... [00:10] <_MMA_> troy_s: Wanna handle this one. ^^^ [00:11] _MMA_, for example see LCD panels like Aquos by Sharp (TM) [00:11] _MMA_: Go for me my brother. [00:12] there's a technolosy to improve contrast by enlightnening on the side of the tv [00:12] so the eye will see more contrast [00:12] <_MMA_> troy_s: Your much more eloquent/knowledgeable on this one. [00:12] hmm, for Hardy and Ubuntu Studio, I'm gonna try and get them onto Crux [00:12] <_MMA_> Crux? [00:13] _MMA_, I've a Pantone huey for my monitor [00:13] it automatically adjust gamma and color ranges [00:13] by controlling the ambient light [00:13] that metalish purple theme [00:13] it still comes with Gnome after all these years. They even updated it to Cairo [00:13] Viper550, horrible for my tastes :D [00:13] _MMA_: What were we talking about? lol. [00:14] but for Ubuntu Studio, it looks a bit like a professional editing application theme [00:14] <_MMA_> Cimi: There's a reason why pro audio/video/photo apps use colors like we do. Or why we copy them rather. [00:14] _MMA_, a WHOLE dark theme [00:14] is much better than a light theme [00:14] but, Crux by default isn't "too dark" [00:15] as it is much more relaxing [00:15] <_MMA_> troy_s: "Cimi: the human eye can't switch between a dark background to bright colors. i.e. black bg and white base. it will lose contrast and sharpness. and the eye will be stressed more than it should" [00:15] _MMA_: If you are aiming to be 'professional' the most 'professionally' close (say to a Nuke / Shake) is Blender in terms of looks. [00:15] _MMA_, blender [00:15] Their model are programs like Avid Studio [00:15] ardour [00:15] and other apps [00:15] are TOTALLY black [00:15] they don't have contrast between BLACK and WHITE [00:16] i'm saying that the problems in the ubuntustudio theme is just that contrast [00:16] with is bad for the human eye [00:16] _MMA_: Any time I see the word 'eyestress' it conjures mythical beliefs. There has been countless research done that the notions of 'eyestrain' are rubbish when it comes to 'looking'. Moving the eye around a lot will strain it and actually make it fatigue. But that is rolling your orbital from one side to the other, not just moving it around a screen say. [00:16] I've nothing against dak themes [00:16] <_MMA_> Cimi: I dont agree at all sorry. [00:16] Cimi: Ardour isn't a professional application though so I would argue that it isn't a wonderful comparison point. [00:16] _MMA_, maybe you don't have a monitor like mines [00:17] 1500:1 of contrast [00:17] Cimi: Perhaps comparing to Nuke or ProTools would be. [00:17] black/white is a bit harder for me [00:17] troy_s, I've said for colors [00:17] <_MMA_> I use this theme for hours on end for over a year. I just need links to back up the "eye strain" thing. ;) [00:17] a whole dark theme [00:17] like adobe aperture [00:17] Its an aesthetic. And granted aesthetics are volatile grounds for debates, in the end, the whole of the argument is aesthetic and subjective. [00:18] this is not an aesthetic thing [00:18] as I've said [00:18] there are a lot of strumentation (professional) [00:18] 1500:1 contrast is nothing. [00:18] CRTs deliver 10x that [00:19] troy_s, I've a crt too [00:19] which is more harder to live with ubuntustudio theme [00:19] <_MMA_> Viper550: Just talk to me here as I am also coordinating the art for Ubuntu Studio here. (or in a PM) I dont sit in #ubuntustudio on the weekends. [00:19] Okay [00:19] I was saying [00:19] there are a lof ot strumentation [00:20] I was thinking about Crux as their engine since it's underrated, and it's also kinda got that look they want [00:20] that sets colors and contrast by seeing whole luminance of the area [00:20] and the ambient light [00:20] <_MMA_> Viper550: "their" and "they"? [00:20] they as in ubuntustudio [00:20] <_MMA_> Viper550: Oh. You dont know. Im the lead on it. [00:21] <_MMA_> I wrote all the WIKI pages. "C.Kontros" [00:21] _MMA_, you should fix the colors in the comboboxes [00:21] Oh, cool. Anyway, Crux does kinda have that "media application" look [00:21] see the gaim state combobox [00:21] it has a dark text color [00:21] should be white I guess [00:22] <_MMA_> Cimi: I like the black myself but can that be changed? [00:22] of course [00:22] in the gtkrc [00:23] <_MMA_> Cimi: Once .6 is in the repos Ill get with you to look over some of the text colors. I do think some of it can be tweaked. [00:24] _MMA_, I'm not thinking of releasing 0.6 [00:24] I'd like to wait kwwii directions [00:25] <_MMA_> Ok. Either way. once it does get in we can look at the Ubuntu Studio text colors then. [00:25] mmm [00:25] imho [00:25] it's just [00:26] _MMA_, where's the gtkrc? [00:27] <_MMA_> We'll mess with it later. ;) [00:27] btw menu_item [00:27] and fgprelight [00:27] probably [00:30] * _MMA_ stops neglecting his family and shuts the laptop lid. Later guys. [00:31] Cimi: Being an expert in GTK coding, how easy would it be to create something akin to Mist but with rounded (very slight) corners (somewhere about 3 in Murrine radius) [00:31] ? [00:31] you can do this with murrine [00:31] !? [00:31] hilight_ratio = 0.909090 [00:31] gradients = FALSE [00:31] roundness = 3 [00:31] thta's it [00:31] Cimi: Do you have a screenshot?! [00:31] troy_s, try it [00:32] Cimi: Erk... ok... [00:32] add those options in the engine section of the gtkrc [00:32] Cimi: That eliminates all of the nasty glossy looks etc? [00:32] yes [00:32] Cimi: Keeps it gradient / flat? [00:32] Wow. [00:32] How lovely! [00:32] =) [00:32] ok ... I'll need to experiment with it. [00:32] <_MMA_> troy_s: I did this tonight for Ubuntu Studio-Hardy. ;) [00:32] Awsome work by the way Cimi -- great to see you in here. [00:33] Mist is a darn strong engine, if it just was a little more 'refined' with antialiased rounded corners etc. [00:33] murrine is very powerful in that way [00:33] probably the code is more complicated than clearlooks [00:34] but you can do a lot of things in customization [00:34] Cimi: If I can do that, I would be elated... [00:34] (obviusly it is complicated you've 100 styles in one engine) :D [00:34] greets luisbg [00:34] one moment troy_s I try [00:37] troy_s, 1: http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/8996/screenshot1tb5.png [00:37] just added those 3 options to a theme [00:38] Cimi: Is there a way to create a highlight line? [00:38] mmm [00:38] Cimi: Being a sort of light direction [00:39] Cimi: If it were a rectangle, the left/top would be lighter than the bottom/right for example. [00:39] not with roundness = 3 [00:39] Cimi: No roundness it can do it yes? [00:39] yes [00:39] if I remember well... [00:39] not sure [00:39] Cimi: Is that a tricky code bit to get it with roundness? [00:39] <_MMA_> troy_s: http://mma.users.ubuntustudio.org/UbuntuStudio-Hardy.tar.gz [00:39] Cimi: Great wood in the bg by the way [00:39] _MMA_: What is that? [00:40] <_MMA_> Tinkering with Hardy's theme. [00:40] _MMA_: Screenshot? [00:40] troy_s, http://www.cimitan.com/blog/wp-content/new-gummy-tabs-2.png [00:40] <_MMA_> No. The theme. [00:40] <_MMA_> troy_s: just DL and drop in the theme manager. [00:40] Cimi: Can you turn the tab 'striping' on and off with Murrine (the blue bar in your screenshot) [00:41] no [00:41] those two changes [00:41] <_MMA_> troy_s: I still dont know if it will work with the design direction. I might take the stripes off the menubar. [00:41] (highlight of buttons and tabs) [00:41] require changes in the code [00:41] not buge changes [00:41] but something [00:41] *huge [00:42] Cimi: I am using Glider (nice additions you put in there if I am not mistaken) [00:42] Cimi: The ONLY thing I would change on glider is a slight rounding of tabs / buttons. [00:42] I haven't worked with glider [00:42] That's it, but I don't think it is possible with Murrine, is it? [00:42] just Clearlooks [00:42] Gummy [00:42] GLossy [00:42] Inverted [00:43] and Classic [00:43] and murrine too [00:43] Glider is absolutely perfect from the aesthetic I am working towards... minus the square corners. [00:43] I just don't know how hard it would be to twiddle the engine into supporting radius. [00:43] <_MMA_> troy_s: Glider is a theme? [00:43] Cimi: you have a good chance to monopolize the gtk theme engine market ;) [00:44] _MMA_: Control set... try it. [00:44] hello goys, by the way [00:44] * _MMA_ looks. [00:44] guys [00:44] TheSheep: Greets friend. [00:44] I don't like glider [00:44] Cimi: It avoids the nasty outline tango mess [00:44] Cimi: And it is deadly clean. [00:44] Cimi: I just wish it had about a 3 px round. [00:45] it's much more simpler to hack murrine supporting the highlight then rewriting all the glider theme [00:46] Cimi: it's always easier to work with your own code [00:46] not for this [00:46] just because adding the highlight is just few lines [00:47] supporting the radius in glider seems to requrire rewriting things there and there [00:47] Cimi: Is that possible? [00:47] Cimi: Because the basic look of mist/glider is relatively simple. [00:47] troy_s, the highlight in murrine? [00:47] Cimi: Oldschool highlight on two edges/darker on two... nothing else. [00:47] troy_s, candido-like [00:48] http://candido.berlios.de/pages/engine.php [00:48] by me [00:49] Almost exactly, but with rounded and no outlines. [00:51] ok [00:51] outlines? [00:51] where? [00:51] Cimi: The outlines around the buttons of a singular colour [00:52] Cimi: As in the button would only be say, 1 pixel of highlight and 1 pixel of dark. [00:52] border? [00:52] Yes. [00:52] Border. [00:52] Can you turn that off in Murrine? [00:52] it will be horrible imho [00:52] and not usable [00:52] theme will lacks of contrast [00:53] Cimi: It is what I am looking for. I have normal vision and am not too worried about outlines on everything. [00:53] Cimi: I am assuming the highlights / shade are different enough to provide a single pixel outline. [00:53] plus shadows help here if your wm supports them [00:54] Cimi: The borders clunkify the entire theme too much ala Tango. It isn't terribly elegant nor professional app looking (which is another reason I require it.) [00:54] I've never seen an app without them [00:54] Cimi: Glider and such don't use them. [00:54] Cimi: And they work fine. Plus a good deal of the look that I am trying to merge with avoids that Tango look. [00:55] you're in front of a tango lover :) [00:55] Cimi: And on a personal note I despise outlines almost as much as Steve Jobs despises buttons. [00:55] Cimi: I hope it isn't viral. ;) [00:55] ahahah [00:55] no no :) [00:56] Cimi: Is that a flexibility that you could integrate into Murrine or is a huge deal? [00:56] for buttons [00:56] borders [00:56] I think I can do it in a clean way by bumping up gtk version to 2.12 [00:57] Cimi: Yes. All of the 3D elements seem to have borders in most GTK implementations, where say, Mist/Glider avoid them. Unfortunately, Mist and Glider don't have all of the lovely flexibility of Murrine. [00:57] Cimi: How would I track your development? Are you located on Bzr or on your own servers etc? [00:58] svn [00:58] btw [00:59] murrine wasn't written to a flat look in mind [00:59] so... [00:59] i will take a look if I have time [00:59] and obviusly if [00:59] as I've said before [00:59] mark will sponsor my development [01:00] mark = Canonical [01:00] I can't work for weeks and absolutely for free and for him =) [01:00] Cimi: Oh I wouldn't expect you to do anything really. I was just wondering how hard it would be etc. [01:00] nothing hard [01:00] Cimi: As I would probably need to cludge bloody Glider or something. [01:01] but a question of time [01:01] Cimi: I would hate to do it, but I would if no other theme / engine / etc. offered the option. [01:01] Cimi: I have no clue what Ubuntu main would want from you. [01:01] me too :) [01:02] I've available if someone ask me to develop and support [01:02] but I can't work for free and for months, supporting everything and coding all day without anything [01:02] it's not fair to me :) [01:04] <_MMA_> Cimi: Ubuntu wants nothing from you specifically. As I understood it Ken is wanting to use Murrine but might want to do things that require coding. Thats it. [01:04] <_MMA_> He just might not be aware of all the options Murrine has. [01:05] _MMA_, ken and me already discussed in pvt a lot of time [01:05] <_MMA_> Lots of things hinge with his meeting with Mark. [01:05] yep [01:05] but as I said [01:05] I'm here [01:06] available to him [01:06] <_MMA_> Sure. I just dont want you to think you cant make a move without him. Which what it looks like. Just could be a language thing. [01:06] obviusly I don't need any money if I can work one day to do a mod [01:07] but if it will require weeks and support the engine for the rest of the LTS support [01:07] <_MMA_> I doubt it will come to that unless he has you hack on a new "UbuntuLooks". [01:08] _MMA_, I can do anything I like with cairo actually [01:08] I'm using cairo in gtk engines from 2 years [01:08] I'm very experienced [01:08] <_MMA_> ok. [01:08] so he can also give me a mockup and say "do it!" [01:08] I can do if it don't requires hacks in the gtk+ libs [01:09] btw [01:09] saying "i pay you ten dollars for using murrine and helping me with the support" [01:10] is just like saying "thanks for your work" [01:10] and it is very appreciated [01:10] I don't want to become rich with this :) [01:10] <_MMA_> Ok. :) Well the family is done what they were doing and now I have to run. [01:10] <_MMA_> later. [01:12] troy_s, do you agree? [01:32] I agree, if that helps any :-) [02:27] _MMA_ sorry I had to so so suddenly [02:32] Cimi: I would gladly donate to the fund if you had an easy way to deal with it. [02:33] troy_s, I guess mark has more money than all freenode users actually :) [02:33] Cimi: Well yes, but never underestimate the power of the masses. Without them, Mark would have zero body of work. [02:34] Cimi: Further, if you are receptive to the needs / desires of the public, I would assume that you could generate a good deal of donations. [02:34] or contributions [02:34] hey thar troy_s [02:34] Greetings Viper550 [02:34] yeah, back for Hardy, finally divin' back into Ubuntu. I proudly have Gutsy running in VirtualBox on my newer computer (which unfortunately runs Vista) [02:36] troy_s, btw I'm working on your request since 2 hour [02:36] s [02:36] Cimi: Sheesh. You didn't have to do that! [02:36] troy_s, you asked me.. [02:37] troy_s: he just enjoys it ;) [02:37] Cimi: I asked if it was a big deal lol. I never expected you to dive right in. Needless to say, thanks a bunch. Wow. [02:39] I have been playing around with Gutsy, love the new color scheme options [02:39] Also, from what I saw, we'll be able to ship multiple preset color schemes on themes [02:40] troy_s: http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1431/schemesrp3.png [02:43] Viper550: What am I looking at. Looks similar to XP had someone wanted to generate a Clearlooks version. [02:44] you'll be able to have multiple color schemes with one "theme" [02:45] I've forced a friend of mine to code it :) [02:46] haha...we were also discussing that Fedora 8's new theme is just a "modification" to Murrine [02:48] Also, I know that I am jumping the gun a bit but... [02:49] I'm already getting ideas for Hardy, all the GTK based Hardy distros actually [03:25] hello? [03:34] hi Viper550 [03:34] I have been working on a side-project for Ubuntu Studio 7.04 [03:38] Right now, it's this "hack" of Crux with a dark grey/blue color scheme [03:40] I go to bed [03:40] bye Viper550 [06:41] anyone here? [12:12] Hey all you Ubuntu artists, I have a favour to ask. I have packaged an app for Ubuntu, but it lacks an icon. Any one interested in creating a tango icon for Genpo http://genpo.sf.net ? [19:50] _MMA_? [20:38] hello? [20:40] hi! [20:40] ubuntu version symbols: http://thorwil.wordpress.com/2007/11/18/ubuntu-version-symbols/ :) [20:59] <_MMA_> Viper550: I'm here. Though, with it being Sunday, I'm not real apt to talk about "Ubuntu stuff". ;) [20:59] Yeah, I finished my GTK theme proposal [21:04] _MMA_ http://bay01.imagebay.com/_upload/img/24/usgutsyfjs.jpg [21:05] <_MMA_> "with it being Sunday, I'm not real apt to talk about "Ubuntu stuff"." [21:30] anyone else here? [23:09] what do you think? http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/corky-flower.png [23:11] TheSheep: pretty cool [23:13] I'm just afraid that people will make holes in my monitor with tacks XD [23:23] <_MMA_> TheSheep: Do you have a blank one? Id like to use in on my screen. [23:24] _MMA_: I have one without the flower, with only the logo [23:24] <_MMA_> That would work. [23:24] what do you think? http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/corky.png [23:24] sorry [23:24] ok, should work [23:25] I also have the texture, but without some cloning it's pretty repetitive [23:31] the flower was what made it nice:P [23:36] <_MMA_> TheSheep: Icons with white text are a little hard to read. I like the texture. :) What id Xubuntu going for this time? [23:44] _MMA_: I have no idea, I'm just a user [23:44] _MMA_: there is some bikeshedding on the mailing list, but most people seems to like the last theme [23:45] someone suggested the gtango icons [23:45] (crashbit icons) [23:48] <_MMA_> Xubuntu doesnt even look to have a Hardy page. :( [23:49] jmak likes to work under cover apparently :) [23:50] <_MMA_> Thats fine. I did the same for Feisty/Gutsy. Most likely Hardy+1 as well. [23:55] _MMA_: btw, I was inspired by this wallpaper: http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/desk.jpg [23:56] but I don't know who made it or even where I got it [23:56] <_MMA_> Nice. [23:57] I love the effect, and it's really comfortable to work on