| Cimi | hi troy_s kwwii | 00:42 |
|---|---|---|
| troy_s | Cimi: Greets friend. How are you? | 00:42 |
| Cimi | very fine thx ;) | 00:42 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Floral grunge! | 00:43 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: And Xubuntu is nasty in Feisty. It is what happens when Web2.0 smashes into overused, outdated, and nasty. | 00:44 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: at least it's clean | 00:45 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I mean the quality, not the message | 00:45 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Gah. So are the operating rooms where they used to perform lobotomy operations on mentally challenged people. | 00:46 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: There is a fine line between clean and monotonous / sterile. | 00:46 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Well maybe it isn't that fine. There is a line there somewhere. | 00:47 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: lobotomies were performed everywhere, at homes and at schools, the guy had a 'lobotomobile' and was touring | 00:47 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: that's what was so revolutionary, a non-invasive brain surgery | 00:47 |
| troy_s | LOL | 00:48 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Clearly you require some if you are grooving on the 'i just can't stop with the wet floors out of that whitesnake video' | 00:48 |
| TheSheep | not to nitPICK | 00:48 |
| troy_s | lol | 00:49 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: what have you been up to? | 00:49 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: snafu | 00:49 |
| Cimi | are there some news from the artwork team? | 00:50 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: mostyly adding animated rotating price tags on some web pages | 00:50 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I still feel dirty | 00:50 |
| troy_s | Cimi: I wouldn't expect any, no. | 00:50 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Nice. | 00:50 |
| TheSheep | http://wakacjeznami.pl ugh! | 00:50 |
| TheSheep | the customer is always right | 00:51 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: any progrss with Ubun²? | 00:52 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Funky font. Well I have had a bundle of bits on my page, so no. | 00:52 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: I have found some salvation in AWN however. | 00:53 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: It gets me one step closer to a mainstream acceptable desktop. | 00:53 |
| TheSheep | avant? | 00:53 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Yes... it has come a long long way. It is a tad on the OSX side, but to be honest, it now has the functionality required to get rid of those ass nasty gnome panels and save space etc. | 00:54 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: ah, you're a mac person, I forgot :) | 00:54 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Not at all. | 00:54 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: But the default Gnome panels are utter ass. | 00:54 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: And worse, the default installation hogs up too much space (do we really need two panels in upstream? C'mon...) | 00:54 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: It also helps to eliminate complexity for a newer user by limiting the amount of information presented. | 00:55 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I'm concerned if the right information is being pruned | 00:55 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: ? | 00:55 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: you remove the labels, and leave the icons | 00:56 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: The labels are there on hover. | 00:56 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: icons are ambigious and don't mean much until you learn them | 00:56 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Absolutely. And worse, the Tango ones are nasty. | 00:56 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: on hover == effectively hidden | 00:56 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: But on the upside, AWN aims at the 48 pixel size, so the icons can look at least as good as the Firefox default icon for example. | 00:56 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I recall someone on this channel claimed that icons should be simple symbols and not small works of art, but I forgot who it was :P | 00:57 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: I believe he was referring to glyphs at the 22 point level. | 00:58 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: what about consistency? | 00:59 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: That was in reference to that idiodic 'let's make all the 22 pixels multicoloured' | 00:59 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Consistency can be had with style, palette, or combination. | 00:59 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Shape (in the case of the Firefox / Thunderbird pairing for example) | 00:59 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: wouldn't it be cool if you could identify the icon on your panel because it is the same as an icon next to that entry in the menu? | 00:59 |
| TheSheep | there are only so many distinct shapes, and vary the style too much and you get a mad fruit salad | 01:00 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: I suppose all you have to really link icons in terms of consistency is talent. | 01:02 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: And in the end, I am not exactly certain that icons need to be too consistent if they are of a sufficient quality. By 'icons' I am referring to application icons. | 01:02 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: ok, so for the sake of aestetics you introduce into the system a requirement that the icons must be done by talented people, otherwise they become unusable | 01:03 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: I hate that word. Unusable. | 01:03 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I was learned that one should design systems so that it's easy to meet the design goals with them, for example usability | 01:03 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I suppose usability is even worse | 01:04 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: That word crops up time and time again, and I will be _damned_ if it isn't rooted in an implied audience. Of course, most folks just wag that around above their heads without considering that the implied audience is a group. | 01:04 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: it's almost as a nasty generalization as 'aestetic' | 01:04 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Acetic or aesthetic :) | 01:04 |
| TheSheep | sorry | 01:04 |
| TheSheep | aesthetic | 01:04 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Aesthetics are easy because only the foolish create harsh blanket statements. | 01:05 |
| TheSheep | not ascetic ;) | 01:05 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: same with usability | 01:05 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: but they don't teach it in school | 01:05 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Usability is about equivalent to aesthetics, only people in Free Software land like to think that usability has certain 'constants' above and beyond general mechanical things (like Fitz law garbage) | 01:05 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: It's ultimately a ridiculous pursuit. Audience governs _all_. | 01:06 |
| TheSheep | speed is easy to measure, so they often assume that qucik=easy to use | 01:06 |
| TheSheep | quick | 01:06 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Absolutely. Not to mention that does Fitz law apply to say, a desktop? Is it a video game? What about mobility impaired folks? | 01:06 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: Fitz law applies to controlling any 'pointer' | 01:07 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Its just such utter rubbish and everyone is lost in this world of 'well they did a study it _must_ be truth' as opposed to looking at the audience and context of studies. | 01:07 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: It isn't a video game. | 01:07 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Christ... that leads down the road where the 22" monitor might as well be the same scaled presentation as on an iPhone. | 01:07 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: it applies to pointing with your finger too | 01:07 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Super duper. Is it relevant? | 01:08 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I thinK I don't follow you | 01:08 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Even better, if you look at that hilarious Google video done by a prof on 'aesthetics' they found that their (albeit limited) survey found that people like things in the center of the frame | 01:08 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: please assume for a moment that you're talking to somenone conditioned through the years to "believe" in Fitz law | 01:08 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Which more or less ignores almost all of the developments of the Ren. | 01:08 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Lol. | 01:09 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Is it relevant. | 01:09 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Does fitz law apply to desktop usage? Is it a race? | 01:09 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: it's not only about sped, although that's what they measured | 01:09 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: it's also about concentration required | 01:09 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Still not relevant. Who cares. | 01:10 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: We aren't driving a car _and_ using our desktops. | 01:10 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I like when I don't have to focus on clicking and can think about where I want that line, for example | 01:10 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: I am not questioning the validity of the research, but rather the application of it to a desktop environment. | 01:10 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: people are not "just using computers", they use computers to do something, computers are secondary here and shouldn't get in the way | 01:11 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: even if they get in the way in a beautiful way | 01:11 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Its learning. How small are those window decorations. Fitz law doesn't take into account that motor acuity evolves with usage. | 01:11 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I can say "ah, that's pretty" once or twice, but the third time I just bite a head off a hamster | 01:11 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Drop a mouse into someone's hand from say, 1979, and see how they do. | 01:12 |
| TheSheep | sure, I've read the early adoption reports, people were holding it in hand and moving in the air, and later they learned to move the ball with their fingers | 01:13 |
| troy_s | LOL | 01:13 |
| TheSheep | honest | 01:13 |
| TheSheep | it was tested on a 'point and click' adventure game on Aplle Lisa | 01:14 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: I just don't find it relevant. At all. Of course you can always get to a DPI issue with like 'GRAB THE DAMN WINDOW BORDER' issue, but again, it is rooted in audience. | 01:14 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: people are not *that* flexible, and you must design for the lowest common denominator | 01:14 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: I disagree 100% | 01:14 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: at least lowest that still makes sense | 01:14 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: That is _exactly_ what got Hollywood into the mess it is in now. lol. | 01:15 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: You should just design for your audience. Period. | 01:15 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Those blanket superlatives end up pleasing NO one. | 01:15 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: they don't use a computer to watch your design, really | 01:15 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Sure... tell that to Apple's surging market share. | 01:15 |
| TheSheep | about 3% around here | 01:16 |
| TheSheep | surging | 01:16 |
| TheSheep | it only shows what difference can marketdroids make | 01:16 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: People _do_ use aesthetically pleasing design. In fact, there is what is known the 'aesthetic usability factor' where folks actually THINK something is easier if it abides by their aesthetics. | 01:16 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: yeah, I've read Donald Norman | 01:16 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: The bottom line, audience :) | 01:17 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Otherwise we do the aesop -- which appears where we are at now. | 01:17 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Try to please everyone ... | 01:17 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: not everyone, artsy people are out of our target ;) | 01:17 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: People with any aesthetic apparently are right now. | 01:18 |
| TheSheep | they already love their macs and won't change their mind anyways | 01:18 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Works great if you are blind... erm... not even that really. | 01:18 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: if there is a choice, I choose the one that pleases me more, but it shouldn't be at the cost of suffering trough some silly stripped down interface | 01:19 |
| === `23meg is now known as mgunes | ||
| troy_s | TheSheep: More +1 to audience as "stripped down" implies a very particular one. | 01:20 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: in other words, there are some features of the interface that I consider vital for comfortable use, and no matter how good it looks without them, I won't give them up | 01:20 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: I believe the flexibility of a good system provides that. | 01:20 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I'm refering to awm now :) | 01:20 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Lol. Seriously though, have you tried it lately? | 01:20 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: lately, no, about 6 months ago | 01:21 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I can surprise you, my desktop layout is very similar to it | 01:21 |
| troy_s | It is pretty damn solid. Having tried it on several folks in their 50s and 60s I'd say that it certainly helps in that demo from the limited five people. | 01:21 |
| === Cimi is now known as andr | ||
| troy_s | I'd also give it a plus one on appearance. | 01:22 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: there are some things however that I miss and I can't give them up | 01:22 |
| TheSheep | http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/shot.png <-- my desktop, btw, if it helps ;) | 01:22 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: ? You are aware that the rewrite now has a highly extensible interface element. | 01:22 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: how is extensibility relevant for an end user? | 01:23 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: What were you looking for in functionality out of it? | 01:23 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Rather. It is easy to develop for now and as such, things like a power button etc applets have all happened. | 01:23 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: workspaces, load gauge, clock | 01:23 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Done done and done. | 01:24 |
| troy_s | Which is my point. | 01:24 |
| * TheSheep downloads awm | 01:24 | |
| troy_s | awn | 01:24 |
| troy_s | :) | 01:24 |
| troy_s | it is hosted at Launchpad now. | 01:24 |
| troy_s | You will also want the awn-extras | 01:24 |
| TheSheep | yesh | 01:24 |
| TheSheep | yeah | 01:24 |
| troy_s | which has the plugins (dbus related) and the applets (load/switcher/etc) | 01:24 |
| TheSheep | note how flexibilitty doesn't help here -- you need to be "good enough" with the default settings | 01:27 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Matter of time | 01:27 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: It does help that it exists and lets you use it. Eventually one can assume that certain 'applets' get integrated into the mainline :) | 01:28 |
| TheSheep | you are not sure that 'good enough' settings can be achieved given the constraints :) | 01:28 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: I don't know what you are getting at. Right now, AWN with attention could easily deliver a top shelf experience for most users. | 01:30 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: It just takes exposure and fixing the bugs (as with anything really) | 01:30 |
| TheSheep | I need to try it :) | 01:31 |
| TheSheep | that note was a general one, not about awn in particular | 01:31 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: It's damn good. | 01:33 |
| TheSheep | I hope it's worth installing all those gnome libs :/ | 01:39 |
| TheSheep | if it isntalls neutilus, then I give up :( | 01:40 |
| TheSheep | nautilus | 01:40 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Yeah that part sucks. | 01:40 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: The browser is pretty good... | 01:40 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I prefer Thunar | 01:41 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: I think it uses its own internal thing for the click popup then you can open up your browser | 01:41 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Got it yet? | 01:43 |
| TheSheep | nope, still in dependency hell :3 | 01:44 |
| TheSheep | but I think I see the light | 01:44 |
| troy_s | Lol | 01:45 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: You won't regret it... although it needs to have some bugs reported against it... I'm filing a few. | 01:45 |
| TheSheep | ok, compiling | 01:46 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: I will note that on amd64 when set to 3D slab it seems to bug out. | 01:50 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Should be a bug report somewhere. Standard 2D view (ala Enlightenment) works great. | 01:50 |
| TheSheep | Key: /apps/avant-window-navigator/app/active_png isn't set. | 01:50 |
| TheSheep | Restarting AWN usually solves this issue | 01:50 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: ? | 01:51 |
| TheSheep | and no, restarting doesn't solve it | 01:51 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Active is an option. You pulled trunk yes? | 01:51 |
| TheSheep | yes | 01:51 |
| TheSheep | https://code.launchpad.net/~malept/awn/0.2-stable-testing | 01:51 |
| troy_s | No | 01:54 |
| troy_s | That isn't trunk | 01:54 |
| TheSheep | but it has 'stable' in it, should work ;) | 01:54 |
| TheSheep | nah, probably the whole thing requires gnome environment to run | 01:54 |
| troy_s | https://code.launchpad.net/~awn-core/awn/trunk | 01:54 |
| troy_s | They are working on the agnostic version too. | 01:55 |
| troy_s | I don't know how far along it is. | 01:55 |
| TheSheep | it's good to use the underying system mechanisms, but windwos regitsry re-done in xml is just silly :P | 01:56 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: same result | 01:58 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: What is the problem: | 01:59 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Try trunk... uninstall that and go with trunk. | 01:59 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Trunk is that plus. | 01:59 |
| TheSheep | I'm trying trunk | 02:00 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Make sure to do a make uninstall. | 02:01 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: On the old dir. | 02:01 |
| TheSheep | I'm sure :) | 02:01 |
| TheSheep | this is a gconf error | 02:01 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Much of the interface to fix things is still laying in Gconf details. | 02:02 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Gconf-editor will help if you bust something. | 02:02 |
| TheSheep | ah, I was running a wrong binary | 02:02 |
| TheSheep | it's the navigator I want, not the manager | 02:03 |
| troy_s | oh of course :) | 02:03 |
| troy_s | trunk won't do you wrong. | 02:03 |
| troy_s | at least it is darn stable for this guy thus far. | 02:03 |
| TheSheep | but it breaks my existing panel and doesn't allow me to switch workspaces | 02:03 |
| troy_s | (aside from those 'can't remove applets that are running' gconf work arounds.) | 02:03 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: The workspace switcher is in awn-extras | 02:03 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: They have isolated the panel functionality from the plugins. | 02:03 |
| TheSheep | I have keybindings for that | 02:04 |
| TheSheep | but it just switches back | 02:04 |
| TheSheep | not to mention it only displays on one workspace | 02:05 |
| TheSheep | I think I will wait until they make it do the basic things | 02:08 |
| nothlit | the png is just missing afaik, gconf is not windows registry, its a backend and a nice lib with a consistent interface that supports live configuration changes | 02:08 |
| TheSheep | nothlit: what's in a name? | 02:08 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: It does. | 02:08 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: You can config it to be on multiple spaces too now I believe. | 02:09 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Right click and pref it. | 02:09 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: can I configure it to not prevent switching workspaces in the first place? | 02:09 |
| nothlit | TheSheep: its not obfuscated nor does it have the entire system stored in it | 02:09 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Unaware of the behave | 02:09 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: What is happening? | 02:09 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: And why aren't you just using a screen edge or something? | 02:10 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I swithc to a different workspace, either using xfwm4's key shortcut or xfce4-panel's pager, and this little nasty thing immediately switches back to where it sits | 02:10 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Hrm... ok. Report a bug. If you disable the applet does it do that still? | 02:11 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I can trick it by switching and immediately bringing up a context menu, then its switch fails | 02:11 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: what applet? | 02:12 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: https://code.launchpad.net/~malept/awn/desktop-agnostic | 02:12 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I don't have any applets enabled in it | 02:13 |
| nothlit | troy_s: affinity is also a nice menu/panel applet/search thingy | 02:13 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: fun! :) | 02:13 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: Talking to malept right now | 02:14 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: He says it is 'feature complete' | 02:14 |
| TheSheep | "only sometimes explodes in your face" :D | 02:14 |
| TheSheep | but I know how it is with development | 02:16 |
| TheSheep | it takes years to make it sturdy | 02:16 |
| TheSheep | what's "gio" and where do I get it? | 02:17 |
| troy_s | gio? | 02:17 |
| TheSheep | ../libawn/awn-vfs.h:34:30: error: gio/gfilemonitor.h: No such file or directory | 02:18 |
| TheSheep | ah, I see I can replace it with thunar-vfs | 02:19 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: I would give desktop agnostic a try... see how it works. | 02:20 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: He hasn't started in on plugins etc. | 02:20 |
| TheSheep | troy_s: I'm trying :) | 02:20 |
| TheSheep | it insists on having that gio thing :/ | 02:23 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: malept is in awn | 02:24 |
| troy_s | TheSheep: he wrote it. | 02:24 |
| lapo | hi | 11:05 |
| kwwii | hi | 11:17 |
| steph_ | hi | 11:41 |
| === _MMA1 is now known as _MMA_ | ||
| andreasn | kwwii: nice background selections for kde4 | 16:14 |
| kwwii | andreasn: thanks..it was a lot of work to make that decision | 16:15 |
| kwwii | and, as expected, there are a lot of people complaining | 16:15 |
| kwwii | funny enough, we got complaints from old-school people wanting the ugly old patterns back | 16:16 |
| andreasn | there are always people complaining, as long as you felt you did a good job that you are pride of | 16:16 |
| andreasn | err...proud | 16:16 |
| _MMA_ | Can I have a link? | 16:21 |
| andreasn | http://blog.ruphy.org/?p=23 | 16:24 |
| _MMA_ | andreasn: Thanx. Nice pics kwwii. | 16:31 |
| * _MMA_ will be tinkering with this today thanx to Luis. http://gimparoo.wordpress.com/2007/02/15/fake-tilt-shift | 16:31 | |
| === d33p__ is now known as luisbg | ||
| === andreasn_ is now known as andreasn | ||
| thorwil | hmm | 19:53 |
| thorwil | http://people.ubuntu.com/~mmueller/face-browser-1.png | 19:53 |
| TheSheep | thorwil: what if you have more than 9 users? | 19:53 |
| TheSheep | thorwil: nice shadows | 19:54 |
| thorwil | TheSheep: not mine. but the gid could grow several ways. but primes would be less nice | 19:55 |
| TheSheep | thorwil: that's an idea, find a factorization and build the grid on it :D | 19:56 |
| TheSheep | thorwil: you could maybe factor n+1 if it's prime, and center the last column/row | 19:56 |
| thorwil | TheSheep: i would rather shift every 2nd row. to have equal distance between center points in all cases | 19:58 |
| TheSheep | hex | 19:59 |
| thorwil | 7 nodes / 6 triangles making one hexagon | 20:02 |
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