[00:42] <Cimi> hi troy_s kwwii
[00:42] <troy_s> Cimi: Greets friend.  How are you?
[00:42] <Cimi> very fine thx ;)
[00:43] <troy_s> TheSheep: Floral grunge!
[00:44] <troy_s> TheSheep: And Xubuntu is nasty in Feisty.  It is what happens when Web2.0 smashes into overused, outdated, and nasty.
[00:45] <TheSheep> troy_s: at least it's clean
[00:45] <TheSheep> troy_s: I mean the quality, not the message
[00:46] <troy_s> TheSheep: Gah.  So are the operating rooms where they used to perform lobotomy operations on mentally challenged people.
[00:46] <troy_s> TheSheep: There is a fine line between clean and monotonous / sterile.
[00:47] <troy_s> TheSheep: Well maybe it isn't that fine.  There is a line there somewhere.
[00:47] <TheSheep> troy_s: lobotomies were performed everywhere, at homes and at schools, the guy had a 'lobotomobile' and was touring
[00:47] <TheSheep> troy_s: that's what was so revolutionary, a non-invasive brain surgery
[00:48] <troy_s> LOL
[00:48] <troy_s> TheSheep: Clearly you require some if you are grooving on the 'i just can't stop with the wet floors out of that whitesnake video'
[00:48] <TheSheep> not to nitPICK
[00:49] <troy_s> lol
[00:49] <troy_s> TheSheep: what have you been up to?
[00:49] <TheSheep> troy_s: snafu
[00:50] <Cimi> are there some news from the artwork team?
[00:50] <TheSheep> troy_s: mostyly adding animated rotating price tags on some web pages
[00:50] <TheSheep> troy_s: I still feel dirty
[00:50] <troy_s> Cimi: I wouldn't expect any, no.
[00:50] <troy_s> TheSheep: Nice.
[00:50] <TheSheep> http://wakacjeznami.pl  ugh!
[00:51] <TheSheep> the customer is always right
[00:52] <TheSheep> troy_s: any progrss with Ubun²?
[00:52] <troy_s> TheSheep: Funky font.  Well I have had a bundle of bits on my page, so no.
[00:53] <troy_s> TheSheep: I have found some salvation in AWN however.
[00:53] <troy_s> TheSheep: It gets me one step closer to a mainstream acceptable desktop.
[00:53] <TheSheep> avant?
[00:54] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yes... it has come a long long way.  It is a tad on the OSX side, but to be honest, it now has the functionality required to get rid of those ass nasty gnome panels and save space etc.
[00:54] <TheSheep> troy_s: ah, you're a mac person, I forgot :)
[00:54] <troy_s> TheSheep: Not at all.
[00:54] <troy_s> TheSheep: But the default Gnome panels are utter ass.
[00:54] <troy_s> TheSheep: And worse, the default installation hogs up too much space (do we really need two panels in upstream?  C'mon...)
[00:55] <troy_s> TheSheep: It also helps to eliminate complexity for a newer user by limiting the amount of information presented.
[00:55] <TheSheep> troy_s: I'm concerned if the right information is being pruned
[00:55] <troy_s> TheSheep: ?
[00:56] <TheSheep> troy_s: you remove the labels, and leave the icons
[00:56] <troy_s> TheSheep: The labels are there on hover.
[00:56] <TheSheep> troy_s: icons are ambigious and don't mean much until you learn them
[00:56] <troy_s> TheSheep: Absolutely.  And worse, the Tango ones are nasty.
[00:56] <TheSheep> troy_s: on hover == effectively hidden
[00:56] <troy_s> TheSheep: But on the upside, AWN aims at the 48 pixel size, so the icons can look at least as good as the Firefox default icon for example.
[00:57] <TheSheep> troy_s: I recall someone on this channel claimed that icons should be simple symbols and not small works of art, but I forgot who it was :P
[00:58] <troy_s> TheSheep: I believe he was referring to glyphs at the 22 point level.
[00:59] <TheSheep> troy_s: what about consistency?
[00:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: That was in reference to that idiodic 'let's make all the 22 pixels multicoloured'
[00:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: Consistency can be had with style, palette, or combination.
[00:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: Shape (in the case of the Firefox / Thunderbird pairing for example)
[00:59] <TheSheep> troy_s: wouldn't it be cool if you could identify the icon on your panel because it is the same as an icon next to that entry in the menu?
[01:00] <TheSheep> there are only so many distinct shapes, and vary the style too much and you get a mad fruit salad
[01:02] <troy_s> TheSheep: I suppose all you have to really link icons in terms of consistency is talent.
[01:02] <troy_s> TheSheep: And in the end, I am not exactly certain that icons need to be too consistent if they are of a sufficient quality.  By 'icons' I am referring to application icons.
[01:03] <TheSheep> troy_s: ok, so for the sake of aestetics you introduce into the system a requirement that the icons must be done by talented people, otherwise they become unusable
[01:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: I hate that word.  Unusable.
[01:03] <TheSheep> troy_s: I was learned that one should design systems so that it's easy to meet the design goals with them, for example usability
[01:04] <TheSheep> troy_s: I suppose usability is even worse
[01:04] <troy_s> TheSheep: That word crops up time and time again, and I will be _damned_ if it isn't rooted in an implied audience.  Of course, most folks just wag that around above their heads without considering that the implied audience is a group.
[01:04] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's almost as a nasty generalization as 'aestetic'
[01:04] <troy_s> TheSheep: Acetic or aesthetic :)
[01:04] <TheSheep> sorry
[01:04] <TheSheep> aesthetic
[01:05] <troy_s> TheSheep: Aesthetics are easy because only the foolish create harsh blanket statements.
[01:05] <TheSheep> not ascetic ;)
[01:05] <TheSheep> troy_s: same with usability
[01:05] <TheSheep> troy_s: but they don't teach it in school
[01:05] <troy_s> TheSheep: Usability is about equivalent to aesthetics, only people in Free Software land like to think that usability has certain 'constants' above and beyond general mechanical things (like Fitz law garbage)
[01:06] <troy_s> TheSheep: It's ultimately a ridiculous pursuit.  Audience governs _all_.
[01:06] <TheSheep> speed is easy to measure, so they often assume that qucik=easy to use
[01:06] <TheSheep> quick
[01:06] <troy_s> TheSheep: Absolutely.  Not to mention that does Fitz law apply to say, a desktop?  Is it a video game?  What about mobility impaired folks?
[01:07] <TheSheep> troy_s: Fitz law applies to controlling any 'pointer'
[01:07] <troy_s> TheSheep: Its just such utter rubbish and everyone is lost in this world of 'well they did a study it _must_ be truth' as opposed to looking at the audience and context of studies.
[01:07] <troy_s> TheSheep: It isn't a video game.
[01:07] <troy_s> TheSheep:  Christ... that leads down the road where the 22" monitor might as well be the same scaled presentation as on an iPhone.
[01:07] <TheSheep> troy_s: it applies to pointing with your finger too
[01:08] <troy_s> TheSheep: Super duper.  Is it relevant?
[01:08] <TheSheep> troy_s: I thinK I don't follow you
[01:08] <troy_s> TheSheep: Even better, if you look at that hilarious Google video done by a prof on 'aesthetics' they found that their (albeit limited) survey found that people like things in the center of the frame
[01:08] <TheSheep> troy_s: please assume for a moment that you're talking to somenone conditioned through the years to "believe" in Fitz law
[01:08] <troy_s> TheSheep: Which more or less ignores almost all of the developments of the Ren.
[01:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: Lol.
[01:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: Is it relevant.
[01:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: Does fitz law apply to desktop usage?  Is it a race?
[01:09] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's not only about sped, although that's what they measured
[01:09] <TheSheep> troy_s: it's also about concentration required
[01:10] <troy_s> TheSheep:  Still not relevant.  Who cares.
[01:10] <troy_s> TheSheep: We aren't driving a car _and_ using our desktops.
[01:10] <TheSheep> troy_s: I like when I don't have to focus on clicking and can think about where I want that line, for example
[01:10] <troy_s> TheSheep: I am not questioning the validity of the research, but rather the application of it to a desktop environment.
[01:11] <TheSheep> troy_s: people are not "just using computers", they use computers to do something, computers are secondary here and shouldn't get in the way
[01:11] <TheSheep> troy_s: even if they get in the way in a beautiful way
[01:11] <troy_s> TheSheep: Its learning.  How small are those window decorations.  Fitz law doesn't take into account that motor acuity evolves with usage.
[01:11] <TheSheep> troy_s: I can say "ah, that's pretty" once or twice, but the third time I just bite a head off a hamster
[01:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: Drop a mouse into someone's hand from say, 1979, and see how they do.
[01:13] <TheSheep> sure, I've read the early adoption reports, people were holding it in hand and moving in the air, and later they learned to move the ball with their fingers
[01:13] <troy_s> LOL
[01:13] <TheSheep> honest
[01:14] <TheSheep> it was tested on a 'point and click' adventure game on Aplle Lisa
[01:14] <troy_s> TheSheep: I just don't find it relevant.  At all.  Of course you can always get to a DPI issue with like 'GRAB THE DAMN WINDOW BORDER' issue, but again, it is rooted in audience.
[01:14] <TheSheep> troy_s: people are not *that* flexible, and you must design for the lowest common denominator
[01:14] <troy_s> TheSheep: I disagree 100%
[01:14] <TheSheep> troy_s: at least lowest that still makes sense
[01:15] <troy_s> TheSheep: That is _exactly_ what got Hollywood into the mess it is in now.  lol.
[01:15] <troy_s> TheSheep: You should just design for your audience.  Period.
[01:15] <troy_s> TheSheep: Those blanket superlatives end up pleasing NO one.
[01:15] <TheSheep> troy_s: they don't use a computer to watch your design, really
[01:15] <troy_s> TheSheep: Sure... tell that to Apple's surging market share.
[01:16] <TheSheep> about 3% around here
[01:16] <TheSheep> surging
[01:16] <TheSheep> it only shows what difference can marketdroids make
[01:16] <troy_s> TheSheep: People _do_ use aesthetically pleasing design.  In fact, there is what is known the 'aesthetic usability factor' where folks actually THINK something is easier if it abides by their aesthetics.
[01:16] <TheSheep> troy_s: yeah, I've read Donald Norman
[01:17] <troy_s> TheSheep: The bottom line, audience :)
[01:17] <troy_s> TheSheep: Otherwise we do the aesop -- which appears where we are at now.
[01:17] <troy_s> TheSheep: Try to please everyone ...
[01:17] <TheSheep> troy_s: not everyone, artsy people are out of our target ;)
[01:18] <troy_s> TheSheep: People with any aesthetic apparently are right now.
[01:18] <TheSheep> they already love their macs and won't change their mind anyways
[01:18] <troy_s> TheSheep: Works great if you are blind... erm... not even that really.
[01:19] <TheSheep> troy_s: if there is a choice, I choose the one that pleases me more, but it shouldn't be at the cost of suffering trough some silly stripped down interface
[01:20] <troy_s> TheSheep: More +1 to audience as "stripped down" implies a very particular one.
[01:20] <TheSheep> troy_s: in other words, there are some features of the interface that I consider vital for comfortable use, and no matter how good it looks without them, I won't give them up
[01:20] <troy_s> TheSheep: I believe the flexibility of a good system provides that.
[01:20] <TheSheep> troy_s: I'm refering to awm now :)
[01:20] <troy_s> TheSheep: Lol.  Seriously though, have you tried it lately?
[01:21] <TheSheep> troy_s: lately, no, about 6 months ago
[01:21] <TheSheep> troy_s: I can surprise you, my desktop layout is very similar to it
[01:21] <troy_s> It is pretty damn solid.  Having tried it on several folks in their 50s and 60s I'd say that it certainly helps in that demo from the limited five people.
[01:22] <troy_s> I'd also give it a plus one on appearance.
[01:22] <TheSheep> troy_s: there are some things however that I miss and I can't give them up
[01:22] <TheSheep> http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/shot.png <-- my desktop, btw, if it helps ;)
[01:22] <troy_s> TheSheep: ?  You are aware that the rewrite now has a highly extensible interface element.
[01:23] <TheSheep> troy_s: how is extensibility relevant for an end user?
[01:23] <troy_s> TheSheep: What were you looking for in functionality out of it?
[01:23] <troy_s> TheSheep: Rather.  It is easy to develop for now and as such, things like a power button etc applets have all happened.
[01:23] <TheSheep> troy_s: workspaces, load gauge, clock
[01:24] <troy_s> TheSheep: Done done and done.
[01:24] <troy_s> Which is my point.
[01:24]  * TheSheep downloads awm
[01:24] <troy_s> awn
[01:24] <troy_s> :)
[01:24] <troy_s> it is hosted at Launchpad now.
[01:24] <troy_s> You will also want the awn-extras
[01:24] <TheSheep> yesh
[01:24] <TheSheep> yeah
[01:24] <troy_s> which has the plugins (dbus related) and the applets (load/switcher/etc)
[01:27] <TheSheep> note how flexibilitty doesn't help here -- you need to be "good enough" with the default settings
[01:27] <troy_s> TheSheep: Matter of time
[01:28] <troy_s> TheSheep: It does help that it exists and lets you use it.  Eventually one can assume that certain 'applets' get integrated into the mainline :)
[01:28] <TheSheep> you are not sure that 'good enough' settings can be achieved given the constraints :)
[01:30] <troy_s> TheSheep: I don't know what you are getting at.  Right now, AWN with attention could easily deliver a top shelf experience for most users.
[01:30] <troy_s> TheSheep: It just takes exposure and fixing the bugs (as with anything really)
[01:31] <TheSheep> I need to try it :)
[01:31] <TheSheep> that note was a general one, not about awn in particular
[01:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: It's damn good.
[01:39] <TheSheep> I hope it's worth installing all those gnome libs :/
[01:40] <TheSheep> if it isntalls neutilus, then I give up :(
[01:40] <TheSheep> nautilus
[01:40] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yeah that part sucks.
[01:40] <troy_s> TheSheep: The browser is pretty good...
[01:41] <TheSheep> troy_s: I prefer Thunar
[01:41] <troy_s> TheSheep: I think it uses its own internal thing for the click popup then you can open up your browser
[01:43] <troy_s> TheSheep: Got it yet?
[01:44] <TheSheep> nope, still in dependency hell :3
[01:44] <TheSheep> but I think I see the light
[01:45] <troy_s> Lol
[01:45] <troy_s> TheSheep: You won't regret it... although it needs to have some bugs reported against it... I'm filing a few.
[01:46] <TheSheep> ok, compiling
[01:50] <troy_s> TheSheep: I will note that on amd64 when set to 3D slab it seems to bug out.
[01:50] <troy_s> TheSheep: Should be a bug report somewhere.  Standard 2D view (ala Enlightenment) works great.
[01:50] <TheSheep> Key: /apps/avant-window-navigator/app/active_png isn't set.
[01:50] <TheSheep> Restarting AWN usually solves this issue
[01:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: ?
[01:51] <TheSheep> and no, restarting doesn't solve it
[01:51] <troy_s> TheSheep: Active is an option.  You pulled trunk yes?
[01:51] <TheSheep> yes
[01:51] <TheSheep> https://code.launchpad.net/~malept/awn/0.2-stable-testing
[01:54] <troy_s> No
[01:54] <troy_s> That isn't trunk
[01:54] <TheSheep> but it has 'stable' in it, should work ;)
[01:54] <TheSheep> nah, probably the whole thing requires gnome environment to run
[01:54] <troy_s> https://code.launchpad.net/~awn-core/awn/trunk
[01:55] <troy_s> They are working on the agnostic version too.
[01:55] <troy_s> I don't know how far along it is.
[01:56] <TheSheep> it's good to use the underying system mechanisms, but windwos regitsry re-done in xml is just silly :P
[01:58] <TheSheep> troy_s: same result
[01:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: What is the problem:
[01:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: Try trunk... uninstall that and go with trunk.
[01:59] <troy_s> TheSheep: Trunk is that plus.
[02:00] <TheSheep> I'm trying trunk
[02:01] <troy_s> TheSheep: Make sure to do a make uninstall.
[02:01] <troy_s> TheSheep: On the old dir.
[02:01] <TheSheep> I'm sure :)
[02:01] <TheSheep> this is a gconf error
[02:02] <troy_s> TheSheep: Much of the interface to fix things is still laying in Gconf details.
[02:02] <troy_s> TheSheep: Gconf-editor will help if you bust something.
[02:02] <TheSheep> ah, I was running a wrong binary
[02:03] <TheSheep> it's the navigator I want, not the manager
[02:03] <troy_s> oh of course :)
[02:03] <troy_s> trunk won't do you wrong.
[02:03] <troy_s> at least it is darn stable for this guy thus far.
[02:03] <TheSheep> but it breaks my existing panel and doesn't allow me to switch workspaces
[02:03] <troy_s> (aside from those 'can't remove applets that are running' gconf work arounds.)
[02:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: The workspace switcher is in awn-extras
[02:03] <troy_s> TheSheep: They have isolated the panel functionality from the plugins.
[02:04] <TheSheep> I have keybindings for that
[02:04] <TheSheep> but it just switches back
[02:05] <TheSheep> not to mention it only displays on one workspace
[02:08] <TheSheep> I think I will wait until they make it do the basic things
[02:08] <nothlit> the png is just missing afaik, gconf is not windows registry, its a backend and a nice lib with a consistent interface that supports live configuration changes
[02:08] <TheSheep> nothlit: what's in a name?
[02:08] <troy_s> TheSheep: It does.
[02:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: You can config it to be on multiple spaces too now I believe.
[02:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: Right click and pref it.
[02:09] <TheSheep> troy_s: can I configure it to not prevent switching workspaces in the first place?
[02:09] <nothlit> TheSheep: its not obfuscated nor does it have the entire system stored in it
[02:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: Unaware of the behave
[02:09] <troy_s> TheSheep: What is happening?
[02:10] <troy_s> TheSheep: And why aren't you just using a screen edge or something?
[02:10] <TheSheep> troy_s: I swithc to a different workspace, either using xfwm4's key shortcut or xfce4-panel's pager, and this little nasty thing immediately switches back to where it sits
[02:11] <troy_s> TheSheep: Hrm... ok.  Report a bug.  If you disable the applet does it do that still?
[02:11] <TheSheep> troy_s: I can trick it by switching and immediately bringing up a context menu, then its switch fails
[02:12] <TheSheep> troy_s: what applet?
[02:12] <troy_s> TheSheep: https://code.launchpad.net/~malept/awn/desktop-agnostic
[02:13] <TheSheep> troy_s: I don't have any applets enabled in it
[02:13] <nothlit> troy_s: affinity is also a nice menu/panel applet/search thingy
[02:13] <TheSheep> troy_s: fun! :)
[02:14] <troy_s> TheSheep: Talking to malept right now
[02:14] <troy_s> TheSheep: He says it is 'feature complete'
[02:14] <TheSheep> "only sometimes explodes in your face" :D
[02:16] <TheSheep> but I know how it is with development
[02:16] <TheSheep> it takes years to make it sturdy
[02:17] <TheSheep> what's "gio" and where do I get it?
[02:17] <troy_s> gio?
[02:18] <TheSheep> ../libawn/awn-vfs.h:34:30: error: gio/gfilemonitor.h: No such file or directory
[02:19] <TheSheep> ah, I see I can replace it with thunar-vfs
[02:20] <troy_s> TheSheep: I would give desktop agnostic a try... see how it works.
[02:20] <troy_s> TheSheep: He hasn't started in on plugins etc.
[02:20] <TheSheep> troy_s: I'm trying :)
[02:23] <TheSheep> it insists on having that gio thing :/
[02:24] <troy_s> TheSheep: malept is in awn
[02:24] <troy_s> TheSheep: he wrote it.
[11:05] <lapo> hi
[11:17] <kwwii> hi
[11:41] <steph_> hi
[16:14] <andreasn> kwwii: nice background selections for kde4
[16:15] <kwwii> andreasn: thanks..it was a lot of work to make that decision
[16:15] <kwwii> and, as expected, there are a lot of people complaining
[16:16] <kwwii> funny enough, we got complaints from old-school people wanting the ugly old patterns back
[16:16] <andreasn> there are always people complaining, as long as you felt you did a good job that you are pride of
[16:16] <andreasn> err...proud
[16:21] <_MMA_> Can I have a link?
[16:24] <andreasn> http://blog.ruphy.org/?p=23
[16:31] <_MMA_> andreasn: Thanx. Nice pics kwwii.
[16:31]  * _MMA_ will be tinkering with this today thanx to Luis. http://gimparoo.wordpress.com/2007/02/15/fake-tilt-shift
[19:53] <thorwil> hmm
[19:53] <thorwil> http://people.ubuntu.com/~mmueller/face-browser-1.png
[19:53] <TheSheep> thorwil: what if you have more than 9 users?
[19:54] <TheSheep> thorwil: nice shadows
[19:55] <thorwil> TheSheep: not mine. but the gid could grow several ways. but primes would be less nice
[19:56] <TheSheep> thorwil: that's an idea, find a factorization and build the grid on it :D
[19:56] <TheSheep> thorwil: you could maybe factor n+1 if it's prime, and center the last column/row
[19:58] <thorwil> TheSheep: i would rather shift every 2nd row. to have equal distance between center points in all cases
[19:59] <TheSheep> hex
[20:02] <thorwil> 7 nodes / 6 triangles making one hexagon