[00:42] hi troy_s kwwii [00:42] Cimi: Greets friend. How are you? [00:42] very fine thx ;) [00:43] TheSheep: Floral grunge! [00:44] TheSheep: And Xubuntu is nasty in Feisty. It is what happens when Web2.0 smashes into overused, outdated, and nasty. [00:45] troy_s: at least it's clean [00:45] troy_s: I mean the quality, not the message [00:46] TheSheep: Gah. So are the operating rooms where they used to perform lobotomy operations on mentally challenged people. [00:46] TheSheep: There is a fine line between clean and monotonous / sterile. [00:47] TheSheep: Well maybe it isn't that fine. There is a line there somewhere. [00:47] troy_s: lobotomies were performed everywhere, at homes and at schools, the guy had a 'lobotomobile' and was touring [00:47] troy_s: that's what was so revolutionary, a non-invasive brain surgery [00:48] LOL [00:48] TheSheep: Clearly you require some if you are grooving on the 'i just can't stop with the wet floors out of that whitesnake video' [00:48] not to nitPICK [00:49] lol [00:49] TheSheep: what have you been up to? [00:49] troy_s: snafu [00:50] are there some news from the artwork team? [00:50] troy_s: mostyly adding animated rotating price tags on some web pages [00:50] troy_s: I still feel dirty [00:50] Cimi: I wouldn't expect any, no. [00:50] TheSheep: Nice. [00:50] http://wakacjeznami.pl ugh! [00:51] the customer is always right [00:52] troy_s: any progrss with Ubun²? [00:52] TheSheep: Funky font. Well I have had a bundle of bits on my page, so no. [00:53] TheSheep: I have found some salvation in AWN however. [00:53] TheSheep: It gets me one step closer to a mainstream acceptable desktop. [00:53] avant? [00:54] TheSheep: Yes... it has come a long long way. It is a tad on the OSX side, but to be honest, it now has the functionality required to get rid of those ass nasty gnome panels and save space etc. [00:54] troy_s: ah, you're a mac person, I forgot :) [00:54] TheSheep: Not at all. [00:54] TheSheep: But the default Gnome panels are utter ass. [00:54] TheSheep: And worse, the default installation hogs up too much space (do we really need two panels in upstream? C'mon...) [00:55] TheSheep: It also helps to eliminate complexity for a newer user by limiting the amount of information presented. [00:55] troy_s: I'm concerned if the right information is being pruned [00:55] TheSheep: ? [00:56] troy_s: you remove the labels, and leave the icons [00:56] TheSheep: The labels are there on hover. [00:56] troy_s: icons are ambigious and don't mean much until you learn them [00:56] TheSheep: Absolutely. And worse, the Tango ones are nasty. [00:56] troy_s: on hover == effectively hidden [00:56] TheSheep: But on the upside, AWN aims at the 48 pixel size, so the icons can look at least as good as the Firefox default icon for example. [00:57] troy_s: I recall someone on this channel claimed that icons should be simple symbols and not small works of art, but I forgot who it was :P [00:58] TheSheep: I believe he was referring to glyphs at the 22 point level. [00:59] troy_s: what about consistency? [00:59] TheSheep: That was in reference to that idiodic 'let's make all the 22 pixels multicoloured' [00:59] TheSheep: Consistency can be had with style, palette, or combination. [00:59] TheSheep: Shape (in the case of the Firefox / Thunderbird pairing for example) [00:59] troy_s: wouldn't it be cool if you could identify the icon on your panel because it is the same as an icon next to that entry in the menu? [01:00] there are only so many distinct shapes, and vary the style too much and you get a mad fruit salad [01:02] TheSheep: I suppose all you have to really link icons in terms of consistency is talent. [01:02] TheSheep: And in the end, I am not exactly certain that icons need to be too consistent if they are of a sufficient quality. By 'icons' I am referring to application icons. [01:03] troy_s: ok, so for the sake of aestetics you introduce into the system a requirement that the icons must be done by talented people, otherwise they become unusable [01:03] TheSheep: I hate that word. Unusable. [01:03] troy_s: I was learned that one should design systems so that it's easy to meet the design goals with them, for example usability [01:04] troy_s: I suppose usability is even worse [01:04] TheSheep: That word crops up time and time again, and I will be _damned_ if it isn't rooted in an implied audience. Of course, most folks just wag that around above their heads without considering that the implied audience is a group. [01:04] troy_s: it's almost as a nasty generalization as 'aestetic' [01:04] TheSheep: Acetic or aesthetic :) [01:04] sorry [01:04] aesthetic [01:05] TheSheep: Aesthetics are easy because only the foolish create harsh blanket statements. [01:05] not ascetic ;) [01:05] troy_s: same with usability [01:05] troy_s: but they don't teach it in school [01:05] TheSheep: Usability is about equivalent to aesthetics, only people in Free Software land like to think that usability has certain 'constants' above and beyond general mechanical things (like Fitz law garbage) [01:06] TheSheep: It's ultimately a ridiculous pursuit. Audience governs _all_. [01:06] speed is easy to measure, so they often assume that qucik=easy to use [01:06] quick [01:06] TheSheep: Absolutely. Not to mention that does Fitz law apply to say, a desktop? Is it a video game? What about mobility impaired folks? [01:07] troy_s: Fitz law applies to controlling any 'pointer' [01:07] TheSheep: Its just such utter rubbish and everyone is lost in this world of 'well they did a study it _must_ be truth' as opposed to looking at the audience and context of studies. [01:07] TheSheep: It isn't a video game. [01:07] TheSheep: Christ... that leads down the road where the 22" monitor might as well be the same scaled presentation as on an iPhone. [01:07] troy_s: it applies to pointing with your finger too [01:08] TheSheep: Super duper. Is it relevant? [01:08] troy_s: I thinK I don't follow you [01:08] TheSheep: Even better, if you look at that hilarious Google video done by a prof on 'aesthetics' they found that their (albeit limited) survey found that people like things in the center of the frame [01:08] troy_s: please assume for a moment that you're talking to somenone conditioned through the years to "believe" in Fitz law [01:08] TheSheep: Which more or less ignores almost all of the developments of the Ren. [01:09] TheSheep: Lol. [01:09] TheSheep: Is it relevant. [01:09] TheSheep: Does fitz law apply to desktop usage? Is it a race? [01:09] troy_s: it's not only about sped, although that's what they measured [01:09] troy_s: it's also about concentration required [01:10] TheSheep: Still not relevant. Who cares. [01:10] TheSheep: We aren't driving a car _and_ using our desktops. [01:10] troy_s: I like when I don't have to focus on clicking and can think about where I want that line, for example [01:10] TheSheep: I am not questioning the validity of the research, but rather the application of it to a desktop environment. [01:11] troy_s: people are not "just using computers", they use computers to do something, computers are secondary here and shouldn't get in the way [01:11] troy_s: even if they get in the way in a beautiful way [01:11] TheSheep: Its learning. How small are those window decorations. Fitz law doesn't take into account that motor acuity evolves with usage. [01:11] troy_s: I can say "ah, that's pretty" once or twice, but the third time I just bite a head off a hamster [01:12] TheSheep: Drop a mouse into someone's hand from say, 1979, and see how they do. [01:13] sure, I've read the early adoption reports, people were holding it in hand and moving in the air, and later they learned to move the ball with their fingers [01:13] LOL [01:13] honest [01:14] it was tested on a 'point and click' adventure game on Aplle Lisa [01:14] TheSheep: I just don't find it relevant. At all. Of course you can always get to a DPI issue with like 'GRAB THE DAMN WINDOW BORDER' issue, but again, it is rooted in audience. [01:14] troy_s: people are not *that* flexible, and you must design for the lowest common denominator [01:14] TheSheep: I disagree 100% [01:14] troy_s: at least lowest that still makes sense [01:15] TheSheep: That is _exactly_ what got Hollywood into the mess it is in now. lol. [01:15] TheSheep: You should just design for your audience. Period. [01:15] TheSheep: Those blanket superlatives end up pleasing NO one. [01:15] troy_s: they don't use a computer to watch your design, really [01:15] TheSheep: Sure... tell that to Apple's surging market share. [01:16] about 3% around here [01:16] surging [01:16] it only shows what difference can marketdroids make [01:16] TheSheep: People _do_ use aesthetically pleasing design. In fact, there is what is known the 'aesthetic usability factor' where folks actually THINK something is easier if it abides by their aesthetics. [01:16] troy_s: yeah, I've read Donald Norman [01:17] TheSheep: The bottom line, audience :) [01:17] TheSheep: Otherwise we do the aesop -- which appears where we are at now. [01:17] TheSheep: Try to please everyone ... [01:17] troy_s: not everyone, artsy people are out of our target ;) [01:18] TheSheep: People with any aesthetic apparently are right now. [01:18] they already love their macs and won't change their mind anyways [01:18] TheSheep: Works great if you are blind... erm... not even that really. [01:19] troy_s: if there is a choice, I choose the one that pleases me more, but it shouldn't be at the cost of suffering trough some silly stripped down interface === `23meg is now known as mgunes [01:20] TheSheep: More +1 to audience as "stripped down" implies a very particular one. [01:20] troy_s: in other words, there are some features of the interface that I consider vital for comfortable use, and no matter how good it looks without them, I won't give them up [01:20] TheSheep: I believe the flexibility of a good system provides that. [01:20] troy_s: I'm refering to awm now :) [01:20] TheSheep: Lol. Seriously though, have you tried it lately? [01:21] troy_s: lately, no, about 6 months ago [01:21] troy_s: I can surprise you, my desktop layout is very similar to it [01:21] It is pretty damn solid. Having tried it on several folks in their 50s and 60s I'd say that it certainly helps in that demo from the limited five people. === Cimi is now known as andr [01:22] I'd also give it a plus one on appearance. [01:22] troy_s: there are some things however that I miss and I can't give them up [01:22] http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/shot.png <-- my desktop, btw, if it helps ;) [01:22] TheSheep: ? You are aware that the rewrite now has a highly extensible interface element. [01:23] troy_s: how is extensibility relevant for an end user? [01:23] TheSheep: What were you looking for in functionality out of it? [01:23] TheSheep: Rather. It is easy to develop for now and as such, things like a power button etc applets have all happened. [01:23] troy_s: workspaces, load gauge, clock [01:24] TheSheep: Done done and done. [01:24] Which is my point. [01:24] * TheSheep downloads awm [01:24] awn [01:24] :) [01:24] it is hosted at Launchpad now. [01:24] You will also want the awn-extras [01:24] yesh [01:24] yeah [01:24] which has the plugins (dbus related) and the applets (load/switcher/etc) [01:27] note how flexibilitty doesn't help here -- you need to be "good enough" with the default settings [01:27] TheSheep: Matter of time [01:28] TheSheep: It does help that it exists and lets you use it. Eventually one can assume that certain 'applets' get integrated into the mainline :) [01:28] you are not sure that 'good enough' settings can be achieved given the constraints :) [01:30] TheSheep: I don't know what you are getting at. Right now, AWN with attention could easily deliver a top shelf experience for most users. [01:30] TheSheep: It just takes exposure and fixing the bugs (as with anything really) [01:31] I need to try it :) [01:31] that note was a general one, not about awn in particular [01:33] TheSheep: It's damn good. [01:39] I hope it's worth installing all those gnome libs :/ [01:40] if it isntalls neutilus, then I give up :( [01:40] nautilus [01:40] TheSheep: Yeah that part sucks. [01:40] TheSheep: The browser is pretty good... [01:41] troy_s: I prefer Thunar [01:41] TheSheep: I think it uses its own internal thing for the click popup then you can open up your browser [01:43] TheSheep: Got it yet? [01:44] nope, still in dependency hell :3 [01:44] but I think I see the light [01:45] Lol [01:45] TheSheep: You won't regret it... although it needs to have some bugs reported against it... I'm filing a few. [01:46] ok, compiling [01:50] TheSheep: I will note that on amd64 when set to 3D slab it seems to bug out. [01:50] TheSheep: Should be a bug report somewhere. Standard 2D view (ala Enlightenment) works great. [01:50] Key: /apps/avant-window-navigator/app/active_png isn't set. [01:50] Restarting AWN usually solves this issue [01:51] TheSheep: ? [01:51] and no, restarting doesn't solve it [01:51] TheSheep: Active is an option. You pulled trunk yes? [01:51] yes [01:51] https://code.launchpad.net/~malept/awn/0.2-stable-testing [01:54] No [01:54] That isn't trunk [01:54] but it has 'stable' in it, should work ;) [01:54] nah, probably the whole thing requires gnome environment to run [01:54] https://code.launchpad.net/~awn-core/awn/trunk [01:55] They are working on the agnostic version too. [01:55] I don't know how far along it is. [01:56] it's good to use the underying system mechanisms, but windwos regitsry re-done in xml is just silly :P [01:58] troy_s: same result [01:59] TheSheep: What is the problem: [01:59] TheSheep: Try trunk... uninstall that and go with trunk. [01:59] TheSheep: Trunk is that plus. [02:00] I'm trying trunk [02:01] TheSheep: Make sure to do a make uninstall. [02:01] TheSheep: On the old dir. [02:01] I'm sure :) [02:01] this is a gconf error [02:02] TheSheep: Much of the interface to fix things is still laying in Gconf details. [02:02] TheSheep: Gconf-editor will help if you bust something. [02:02] ah, I was running a wrong binary [02:03] it's the navigator I want, not the manager [02:03] oh of course :) [02:03] trunk won't do you wrong. [02:03] at least it is darn stable for this guy thus far. [02:03] but it breaks my existing panel and doesn't allow me to switch workspaces [02:03] (aside from those 'can't remove applets that are running' gconf work arounds.) [02:03] TheSheep: The workspace switcher is in awn-extras [02:03] TheSheep: They have isolated the panel functionality from the plugins. [02:04] I have keybindings for that [02:04] but it just switches back [02:05] not to mention it only displays on one workspace [02:08] I think I will wait until they make it do the basic things [02:08] the png is just missing afaik, gconf is not windows registry, its a backend and a nice lib with a consistent interface that supports live configuration changes [02:08] nothlit: what's in a name? [02:08] TheSheep: It does. [02:09] TheSheep: You can config it to be on multiple spaces too now I believe. [02:09] TheSheep: Right click and pref it. [02:09] troy_s: can I configure it to not prevent switching workspaces in the first place? [02:09] TheSheep: its not obfuscated nor does it have the entire system stored in it [02:09] TheSheep: Unaware of the behave [02:09] TheSheep: What is happening? [02:10] TheSheep: And why aren't you just using a screen edge or something? [02:10] troy_s: I swithc to a different workspace, either using xfwm4's key shortcut or xfce4-panel's pager, and this little nasty thing immediately switches back to where it sits [02:11] TheSheep: Hrm... ok. Report a bug. If you disable the applet does it do that still? [02:11] troy_s: I can trick it by switching and immediately bringing up a context menu, then its switch fails [02:12] troy_s: what applet? [02:12] TheSheep: https://code.launchpad.net/~malept/awn/desktop-agnostic [02:13] troy_s: I don't have any applets enabled in it [02:13] troy_s: affinity is also a nice menu/panel applet/search thingy [02:13] troy_s: fun! :) [02:14] TheSheep: Talking to malept right now [02:14] TheSheep: He says it is 'feature complete' [02:14] "only sometimes explodes in your face" :D [02:16] but I know how it is with development [02:16] it takes years to make it sturdy [02:17] what's "gio" and where do I get it? [02:17] gio? [02:18] ../libawn/awn-vfs.h:34:30: error: gio/gfilemonitor.h: No such file or directory [02:19] ah, I see I can replace it with thunar-vfs [02:20] TheSheep: I would give desktop agnostic a try... see how it works. [02:20] TheSheep: He hasn't started in on plugins etc. [02:20] troy_s: I'm trying :) [02:23] it insists on having that gio thing :/ [02:24] TheSheep: malept is in awn [02:24] TheSheep: he wrote it. [11:05] hi [11:17] hi [11:41] hi === _MMA1 is now known as _MMA_ [16:14] kwwii: nice background selections for kde4 [16:15] andreasn: thanks..it was a lot of work to make that decision [16:15] and, as expected, there are a lot of people complaining [16:16] funny enough, we got complaints from old-school people wanting the ugly old patterns back [16:16] there are always people complaining, as long as you felt you did a good job that you are pride of [16:16] err...proud [16:21] <_MMA_> Can I have a link? [16:24] http://blog.ruphy.org/?p=23 [16:31] <_MMA_> andreasn: Thanx. Nice pics kwwii. [16:31] * _MMA_ will be tinkering with this today thanx to Luis. http://gimparoo.wordpress.com/2007/02/15/fake-tilt-shift === d33p__ is now known as luisbg === andreasn_ is now known as andreasn [19:53] hmm [19:53] http://people.ubuntu.com/~mmueller/face-browser-1.png [19:53] thorwil: what if you have more than 9 users? [19:54] thorwil: nice shadows [19:55] TheSheep: not mine. but the gid could grow several ways. but primes would be less nice [19:56] thorwil: that's an idea, find a factorization and build the grid on it :D [19:56] thorwil: you could maybe factor n+1 if it's prime, and center the last column/row [19:58] TheSheep: i would rather shift every 2nd row. to have equal distance between center points in all cases [19:59] hex [20:02] 7 nodes / 6 triangles making one hexagon