[00:11] <abentley> Yeah, we be hardcore.  But how come it's not listed in Gutsy's /etc/services?
[01:28] <jroes> how do I revert to a specific revision?
[01:30] <lifeless> revert -r revno
[01:31] <jroes> where would that be documented? :)
[01:31] <lifeless> bzr help revert
[01:31] <AfC> bzr help revert
[01:31] <lifeless> as well as the man page and IIRC users guide too
[01:31] <AfC> "Come join #bzr, the channel with attitude for the tool with attitude"
[01:32] <lifeless> :)
[01:32] <jroes> cool :)
[01:38] <jroes> thanks guys, not sure why I couldn't find it
[02:59] <Rotund> I have some questions.
[03:00] <Rotund> Is it costly to push from a repository (init-repo) to a branch not in the repo?
[03:01] <radix> Rotund: you mean, push a branch which is sitting in an existing repository to somewhere else? yep
[03:01] <radix> Rotund: you can push it anywhere you want, including other shared repositories
[03:02] <radix> oh. I should read *all* the words
[03:02] <Rotund> Would that be more expensive than pushing from one branch not in a repo to another that is not in a repo
[03:02] <radix> Rotund: so, if you're pushing to an existing branch, only the new revisions will be sent
[03:02] <radix> so it can be very fast
[03:02] <radix> if the other side has most of the revisions already
[03:03] <Rotund> I'm not finding that to be the case
[03:03] <poolie> igc, hi?
[03:03] <radix> and you can even push into remote repositories, so even if you're creating a new branch it can be fast if the repository has most of the revisions.
[03:03] <igc> hi poolie
[03:03] <Rotund> I have a collection of drupal sites I'm managing with bzr
[03:04] <Rotund> I have a "base install" and each site gets a branch.
[03:04] <Rotund> I make changes to the base.  Go to each website and merge
[03:05] <Rotund> FAST great (they are in a shared repository).
[03:05] <poolie> igc, would 9am tomorrow be ok for a standup meeting?
[03:05] <Rotund> Now pushing those changes to an already created repository is pretty costly
[03:05] <poolie> actually, 9am daily starting tomorrow?
[03:05] <igc> poolie: my 9am or your 9am?
[03:05] <poolie> yours
[03:05] <igc> yes
[03:06] <poolie> cool
[03:06] <igc> I was expecting one today :-)
[03:06] <Rotund> I've tried sftp, bzr (running a server), and bzr+ssh.  All seem to take 2+ minutes to push just a module change
[03:06] <radix> so you've got something like site-repo/{base,website1,website2,website3} ?
[03:06] <igc> poolie: this channel?
[03:06] <Rotund> radix: exactly
[03:06] <radix> Rotund: and it gets slow when you push what to where?
[03:07] <Rotund> I now need to push from my local (my computer) branch to the server's branch
[03:07] <radix> Rotund: ah, do you have this structure mirrored on your local computer and on the server?
[03:07] <Rotund> yup
[03:08] <Rotund> I don't have it bound (is that the term?)
[03:08] <radix> Rotund: ok. and are you extra-sure that both sides have the shared repository in the parent directory? there should be a .bzr there
[03:08] <Rotund> would that help?
[03:08] <radix> Rotund: binding shouldn't matter
[03:08] <radix> i.e. site-repo/.bzr
[03:08] <Rotund> only one side has the shared-repo
[03:09] <radix> Rotund: I'm not exactly sure what kind of operation you're doing, but making both sides shared can vastly increase speed of some operations
[03:09] <Rotund> is there an added penalty for having one side shared and the other not?
[03:09] <radix> notably, pushing up new branches
[03:09] <Rotund> I'm just pushing changes though (version 8->9 for instance)
[03:09] <radix> hm. to an existing branch?
[03:09] <radix> in that case, it should be fast no matter what your shared repo setup
[03:10] <Rotund> That's what I would've thought
[03:10] <radix> 2 minutes definitely sounds weird, for just one revision. are the revisions large?
[03:10] <Rotund> 933K
[03:10] <radix> Rotund: is it made up of many small files?
[03:11] <Rotund> it is 42 files
[03:12] <radix> 933k isn't exactly a light revision, but I guess this is the point where my knowledge reaches its limit
[03:12] <Rotund> I've done things like 1 big file and it'll end up 20 min +
[03:12] <radix> Rotund: what kind of bandwidth and latency do you generally get between these hosts?
[03:13] <Rotund> big = ~3 MB
[03:13] <Rotund> I'm not sure.  It's dreamhost
[03:14] <Rotund> gonna test... one sec
[03:15] <Rotund> ouch.  50KB.
[03:15] <Rotund> Hmmm.  That's awful.
[03:15] <radix> that's plenty fast for uploading 3MB :)
[03:16] <radix> way faster than 20 minutes, anyway
[03:16] <Rotund> Though, I'm still getting the file in ~6 min
[03:16] <Rotund> (Testing a 25 MB one)
[03:16] <Rotund> I just walked away for that
[03:17] <Rotund> It's typically the fetch stage that kills me
[03:17] <Rotund> (stage 1)
[03:18] <Rotund> Is that the actual transfer?
[03:19] <Rotund> If so, I guess I could live with it.
[03:19] <radix> I assume it is
[03:19] <Rotund> okay.  Well, thanks
[03:20] <Rotund> BTW: I'm all hyped for PyCon this year =)
[03:20] <radix> Mph. I guess I'm probably not going to be there.
[03:20] <Rotund> They have a week before and after for sprinting, right?
[03:20] <Rotund> Why not?
[03:21] <warren> How good is the bzr to CVS export tools?
[03:21] <warren> Can they relied upon in an automated way...
[03:22] <abentley> You mean converting from bazaar to CVS?
[03:22] <warren> Yes.
[03:22] <Rotund> That was my question
[03:22] <radix> Rotund: a friend of mine (who would also be at pycon were it not for this) is getting married :)
[03:22] <Rotund> radix: were they there this year?
[03:23] <abentley> Okay, well, I have no idea about that.
[03:23] <Rotund> Man, I may have to find someone else to bug all the time now =(  ;)
[03:23] <radix> Rotund: glyph was.
[03:24] <radix> Rotund: heh. it was pretty good convo last year.
[03:24] <Rotund> glyph's getting married?
[03:24] <radix> righto.
[03:24] <radix> Rotund: I hope your game projects are going well, btw :)
[03:24] <Rotund> radix: Wow.  And he chose PyCon to do it during?  Why am I hearing the cracking of whips over and over ;)
[03:25] <radix> heh heh
[03:25] <Rotund> radix: so is most of the Twisted guys gonna be MIA?
[03:26] <radix> I imagine there will be a weakened presence this year.
[03:26] <Rotund> radix: I wish... unfortunately, real world work is taking all my time
[03:26] <radix> Rotund: stupid real world.
[03:26] <Rotund> radix: Though, I've been doing quite a bit of Python training and evangelism
[03:27] <Rotund> radix: Many of our customers are switching to python
[03:27] <radix> excellent
[03:27] <jam> warren: are you saying the conversion tools, or the one that lets a CVS user checkout files from a Bazaar branch
[03:27] <warren> jam, conversion
[03:27] <jam> (AFAIK they are readonly, but reasonably good)
[03:27] <warren> ah, didn't know the latter existed
[03:27] <jam> I don't know of any specific converters that start with Bazaar and go to CVS
[03:27] <warren> oh
[03:27] <jam> I suppose Tailor would be an any-to-any
[03:28] <Rotund> radix: Honeywell, Rockwell Collins, (testing for both) and most of the tools used for the 787 are Python (though I don't think I've seen Twisted)
[03:28] <jam> https://launchpad.net/bzrcvsserve
[03:29] <Rotund> radix: well, that real world thing is calling.  have a good one.
[03:29] <radix> you too man. take it easy.
[03:30] <jam> Rotund: fun to hear about Rockwell Collins, I interned there for a summer for the Large Format Displays on the 767
[03:31] <jam> IIRC they were looking at Python because its license was better than Perl
[03:31] <jam> (being BSD rather than a form of GPL meant it was more obvious that it wouldn't invade accidentally)
[04:04]  * igc lunch
[07:10] <ubotu> New bug: #163995 in bzr "Re: bzr register-branch is undocumented in manpage" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/163995
[08:23] <AfC> So notwithstanding the email thread on the topic, should I be telling people to `bzr branch` or `bzr clone` when downloading the sources (for the first time)?
[08:23] <lifeless> branch
[08:23] <lifeless> here's how I describe it
[08:23] <lifeless> 'if you want a mirror that you won't edit, do 'bzr checkout''
[08:24] <lifeless> 'if you want to start a new line of development, to hack on the code yourself, do 'bzr branch''
[08:25] <lifeless> (for the former, use bzr update to keep the mirror up to date, for the latter use bzr merge to incorporate changes from the origin)
[08:33] <jamesh> I wonder if people would complain if "bzr fork" was an alias for "bzr branch"?
[08:40] <fullermd> fork should do more than just branch, though.  It should send of a fiery "screw you guys, I'm going home" mail to the project's mailing list.
[08:40] <fullermd> Obviously another address we need to store in branch metadata...
[09:03] <AfC> lifeless: (actually I was asking about `clone` vs `branch`, not `checkout` vs `branch`) abentley was pretty adamant that clone and branch behave differently, which was rather an interesting surprise.
[09:05] <AfC> Meanwhile, you know how you look at the generated Index listing on a web server for a directory with a Bazaar Branch present, but no Working Tree, and it looks to a lay person like nothing is there? I had some fun this afternoon and scratched an itch:
[09:06] <AfC> http://research.operationaldynamics.com/bzr/java-gnome/mainline/
[09:11] <mwhudson> AfC: neat
[09:11] <mwhudson> for launchpad we were thinking of running codebrowse from the same url space as the branch
[09:12] <AfC> mwhudson: yeah, that works too
[09:12] <lifeless> AfC: abentley said that the internals differ for the 'sprout' and 'clone' apis.
[09:12] <AfC> mwhudson: I had a darcsweb installation before, but at a different URL space
[09:12] <lifeless> AfC: at the ui clone is an alias for branch.
[09:13] <AfC> lifeless: oh. Ok. I will stick with clone, then.
[09:13] <lifeless> AfC: saying 'branch' is really better IMO
[09:13] <AfC> lifeless: (he really made it sound like there was some difference having to do with Working Trees or soemthing)
[09:13] <lifeless> AfC: it indicates the semantic action that takes place.
[09:14] <fullermd> 'get' is the one that always throws me for a loop.
[09:14] <AfC> lifeless: personal reasons: 1) I find the term branch getting overloaded, especially with new users:
[09:15] <AfC> "run the bazaar branch command to get a branch of the bazaar branch which is then a branch that you can branch yourself"
[09:15] <fullermd> AfC: I did a mini-rant on that Way Back When...
[09:16] <AfC> lifeless: personal reasons: 2) many of my new potential hackers at the moment are Git aficionados; making the very first command they see a bit more familiar helps get them going. It's a little thing, but it seems to help.
[09:16] <AfC> [and I'm hyper conscious of trying to present them a good impression]
[09:17] <lifeless> fair enough
[09:18] <AfC> lifeless: had a really interesting run through that with Carl Worth via phone the other day. He'll be down at LCA in Melbourne; I'd like to encourage you and Martin and whoever else to have a chat with him then using him flailing at [as it happens my project] as a case example for someone who is _really_ deep into Git but not a shit when dealing with other people.
[09:18] <mwhudson> i alternate between get and branch randomly i think
[09:18] <mwhudson> more likely to use 'get' on a remote branch
[09:19] <AfC> mwhudson: that makes sense too
[09:42] <LarstiQ> lifeless: pong
[09:42] <lifeless> LarstiQ: where is your subtrees branch ?
[09:43] <lifeless> LarstiQ: It keeps coming up, and no-one knows where to go to get your current state.
[09:43] <lifeless> LarstiQ: so I'd really love it if you made it visible - it doesn't matter if its not functional, just making it accessible++.
[09:44] <LarstiQ> lifeless: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~larstiq/bzr/nested-trees may not be entirely up to date, just a sec
[09:44] <lifeless> thanks!
[09:44]  * LarstiQ needs to fix the pending work and actually commit something
[09:45] <lifeless> small commits++
[09:45] <LarstiQ> lifeless: I'm spending 2 hours on that now
[09:45] <lifeless> LarstiQ: yay!
[09:45] <lifeless> I'm about to sleep, so gnight!
[09:45] <LarstiQ> lifeless: I cognitively entirely agree with small commits++
[09:45] <LarstiQ> lifeless: good night
[09:47] <jayesh_> i think bazaar don't have many starting level tutorial !
[09:48] <jayesh_> i really struggled to start with
[09:49] <AfC> jayesh_: what are you having trouble with?
[09:50] <jayesh_> to understand DRCS
[09:50] <jayesh_> i am an svn user
[13:24] <matkor> Hi. Is it possilbe to downgrade branch/checkout to given revision ? How can I do it ?
[13:24] <fullermd> What do you mean by 'downgrade'?
[13:25] <fullermd> Change the files?  Change the basis tree?  Discard later changes semi-permanently?
[13:25] <matkor> fullermd: checkout source is now under -r 100
[13:25] <matkor> I did bzr update
[13:25] <matkor> but no I want have checkout at revison 50
[13:25] <matkor> becouse sth went  wrong
[13:26] <AnMaster> http://bazaar-vcs.org/ConfiguringBzr#head-8b89e546875b2447e015c0b83e423ef4d99ce6e0 refers to "when-required"  "Sign newly committed revisions only when the branch requires signed revisions."
[13:26] <AnMaster> how does one set a branch to require it
[13:26] <AnMaster> I can't find it
[13:27] <fullermd> matkor: Well, still, kinda a question of what you're trying to accomplish.  Are you wanting to just look at/play with the files as of rev 50?  Are you wanting to craft up a rev 101 that looks just like r50?  Are you wanting to throw away r51-100 and start over from 50?
[13:29] <matkor> I want temporarly have rev 50
[13:29] <matkor> until I fix problems and commit more
[13:29] <matkor> revisions
[13:30] <matkor> lets say 105 which fix poblems
[13:30] <fullermd> Well, sounds like using 'revert' is probably your closest bet.  That'll just change your WT files, not anything else.
[13:31] <AnMaster> anyway what about the signing?
[13:31] <AnMaster> :)
[13:32] <fullermd> AnMaster: Search me.  I think there's some branch config option that may do it, but last I heard the gpg code had a lot of exposed innards and spiky edges in those places.
[13:33] <AnMaster> I see, I searched all docs, googled and so on
[13:33] <AnMaster> I really need to enforce signing however :/
[13:33] <fullermd> Might try asking jam when he shows up (couple hours, probably); I think he knows that part of the code reasonably well.
[13:34] <AnMaster> hm, couple of hours, argh. not here then probably
[13:34] <mwhudson> i think you edit gpg_policy or something in locations.conf
[13:35] <AnMaster> hm? isn't locations.conf for the old way of storing parent branch and such?
[13:35]  * AnMaster thought it was stored in the branch nowdays
[13:35] <AnMaster> if it matters: I'm using a shared repo for all my branches with the format "dirstate-tags"
[13:36] <AnMaster> (and I do use tag feature)
[13:36] <matkor> fullermd: Thank you very much ... revert seems ok
[13:36] <matkor> fullermd: To get latest reviosion again. I do : bzr revert ; bzr update, right ?
[13:37] <fullermd> matkor: Just the 'revert' by itself should do it (unless more new revs showed up in the branch of course)
[15:01] <jayesh_> i just created an experimental branch in bazaar.. and i am trying to push to that.why it is taking long time?
[15:02] <jayesh_> is it not pushing a diff ?
[15:49] <AnMaster> fullermd, hm you there?
[15:49] <AnMaster> how long until that "jam" shows up do you think?
[15:58] <jonny2> hi, can use a command to use my version of all conflicts?
[19:14] <lifeless> moin
[19:33] <jelmer> hey lifeless
[20:32] <thumper> morning bizarre dudes
[20:33] <lifeless> hi
[21:34] <floam> is the push-and-update plugin still the "right way" to maintain a working tree on a sftp remote location?
[21:35] <lifeless> floam: yes
[21:36] <floam> ok. I thought maybe it was replaced by something smarter since I've been getting deprecation warnings every time I use it since 0.90 and I've seen no updates to it
[21:36] <lifeless> perhaps you could file a bug on it then ?
[21:36] <floam> well, it works fine
[21:36] <floam> I just get this every time:
[21:37] <floam> /Users/floam/.bazaar/plugins/push_and_update/push_and_update.py:119: DeprecationWarning: bzrlib.transport.split_url was deprecated in version 0.90.
[21:37] <lifeless> yup, please file a bug.
[21:37] <floam> ok.
[22:05] <Peng> check_signatures = always is invalid, right?
[22:05] <Peng> Arrgh.
[22:05] <Peng> I mean create_signatures.
[22:05] <Peng> check_signatures uses always but create_signatures uses "require".
[22:07] <Peng> Oh. I do mean check_signatures.
[22:08] <Peng> Apparently I needed more sleep.
[22:09] <Peng> Anyway, I was asking because the configuration.txt doc gives an example of check_signatures = always once but usually uses "requires" and only lists "requires" as valid.
[22:09] <Peng> Err, "require". no s.
[22:22] <igc> morning
[22:22] <jam-laptop> igc: good morning
[22:23] <igc> hi jam-laptop
[22:23] <jam> silly Colloquy won't let me change the default username
[22:23] <jam> ... :(
[22:24] <jam> I blame Mac's "don't have an Ok button" design philosophy
[22:57] <jam> lifeless, igc:  so are we getting ready to do the conference call?
[22:57] <jam> i don't see poolie
[23:00] <thumper> jam: there he goes ^^
[23:00] <jam> hi poolie
[23:00] <jam> bye everyone
[23:02] <jam>   thumper: will you be joining us?
[23:02] <thumper> jam: no, got to go and collect my daughter
[23:02] <jam> pfff, weak
[23:02] <jam> you make a big deal about sitting in
[23:02] <thumper> :)
[23:02] <jam> and then back out :)
[23:02] <thumper> I was just checking
[23:13] <jam> poolie, igc, lifeless: Are we meeting now? It was supposed to start 10 minutes ago
[23:13] <jam> well 13 by my clock
[23:13] <igc> jam: we did :-)
[23:13] <jam> shoot
[23:14] <jam> i pinged at 3minutes till and nobody said anything
[23:14] <jam> I'm glad it went quickly, though
[23:14] <igc> it was a conference call - just finished
[23:14] <jam> sure, but I don't like calling phone numbers cold...
[23:14] <jam> when I know there are people online
[23:15] <jam> anyway, sorry I missed it
[23:15] <igc> poolie is waiting for lifeless to arrive so there may be a follow-up shortly if you're still around
[23:16] <jam> was there a conference code number?
[23:16] <igc> jam: anyhow, for me today: 1. blackbox tests for switch; 2. User Guide
[23:16] <jam> or is that just Martin's room
[23:16] <jam> #
[23:16] <jam> I think we need to address the community pushback about 1.0
[23:16] <igc> yes
[23:17] <jam> which probably isn't a 15-minute phone call
[23:17] <igc> agreed
[23:20] <jam> anyway, I actually need to get going
[23:20] <jam> I'll thank you in advance for all your help
[23:20] <jam> (since I'm gone for Thanksgiving :)
[23:21]  * jam => away
[23:34] <lifeless> ola!
[23:36] <lifeless> jamesh: enjoy!
[23:36] <lifeless> jam: Enjoy!
[23:40] <jamesh> enjoy what?