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| MacSlow | Greetings everybody! | 08:03 |
|---|---|---|
| === doko_ is now known as doko | ||
| === DrPepperKid is now known as MacSlow | ||
| === dholbach_ is now known as dholbac | ||
| === dholbac is now known as dholbach | ||
| zul | @schedule montreal | 13:06 |
| ubotu | Schedule for America/Montreal: 22 Nov 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 23 Nov 07:00: MOTU meeting | 29 Nov 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 13:06 |
| === Shely is now known as iPage | ||
| soren | @now | 14:48 |
| ubotu | Current time in Etc/UTC: November 20 2007, 14:48:05 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 1 day | 14:48 |
| soren | Figures. | 14:48 |
| akincer | Meeting in 1 day? | 14:55 |
| soren | No, in 5 minutes. | 14:56 |
| soren | Server meeting. | 14:56 |
| akincer | Right, not sure I'll participate much, but I wanted to be here | 14:56 |
| akincer | Oh, Desktop Team Development. Should have read the words before the 1 day part | 14:56 |
| zul | morning | 14:57 |
| akincer | morning | 14:57 |
| soren | No, it's not. | 14:57 |
| akincer | It's all relative | 14:58 |
| zul | soren: yes it is... | 14:58 |
| mathiaz | Hi everyone ! | 14:58 |
| soren | Um.. I'm quite sure I can tell when it's morning and when it isn't... And it really isn't right now. | 14:58 |
| soren | Hi, mathiaz! | 14:59 |
| ivoks | hi all | 14:59 |
| zul | soren: im sure you can, but let me assure you it is morning | 14:59 |
| jdstrand | hi ivoks | 14:59 |
| zul | hey mathiaz | 14:59 |
| akincer | It's 5 oclock somewhere | 14:59 |
| soren | Yes. In the afternoon. | 14:59 |
| * soren shakes his head | 15:00 | |
| akincer | and it is also 5AM somewhere | 15:00 |
| ivoks | guys, every second somewhere is midnight, so... | 15:00 |
| zul | its all black and white to me | 15:01 |
| mathiaz | alright let's get the ubuntu server team meeting started | 15:01 |
| mathiaz | #startmeeting | 15:01 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 15:00. The chair is mathiaz. | 15:01 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 15:01 |
| pschulz01 | mathiaz: +1 | 15:02 |
| mathiaz | So I'd like to appoligize for the last meeting not being run. | 15:03 |
| mathiaz | some of the team members were not available to attend it. | 15:03 |
| mathiaz | it's been a long month since the last one. | 15:03 |
| mathiaz | I think it was before UDS. | 15:04 |
| ivoks | then we have lots of things to talk about | 15:04 |
| * dholbach hugs the server folks :) | 15:04 | |
| mathiaz | I hope so | 15:04 |
| * soren hugs dholbach | 15:05 | |
| * ivoks turns to the dark side and hugs dholbach too :) | 15:05 | |
| dantalizing | get a channel | 15:05 |
| mathiaz | the agenda for today is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting | 15:05 |
| soren | dantalizing: :) | 15:05 |
| mathiaz | [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting. | 15:05 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting. | 15:05 |
| mathiaz | last meeting notes can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20071023 | 15:06 |
| dholbach | more hugs for those of you who do reviews marked as 'canonical-server' on http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ | 15:06 |
| * dholbach is quiet now | 15:06 | |
| mathiaz | zul: did you start a wiki page about your plan for xen ? | 15:06 |
| zul | mathiaz: yes i havent updated it since Ive started it | 15:06 |
| soren | zul: What's the name of it? | 15:07 |
| zul | its a launchpad spec | 15:07 |
| zul | gimme a sec.. | 15:07 |
| zul | https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenInHardy | 15:07 |
| * pschulz01 greets sommer | 15:08 | |
| mathiaz | zul: did you register a spec in LP ? | 15:08 |
| zul | thats the gist of it | 15:08 |
| zul | mathiaz: yep | 15:08 |
| sommer | hey, all | 15:08 |
| ivoks | zul: those xen releases patches for newer version of kernels? | 15:08 |
| ivoks | s/those/does | 15:08 |
| mathiaz | zul: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xen-hardy gives me an error | 15:08 |
| zul | argh...ill fix it after the meeting | 15:09 |
| zul | ivoks: correct. | 15:09 |
| mathiaz | zul: ok - great ! | 15:09 |
| dendrobates | mathiaz: have we started? | 15:09 |
| mathiaz | dendrobates: yes | 15:09 |
| soren | dendrobates: Yes :) | 15:09 |
| dendrobates | topic? | 15:09 |
| mathiaz | dendrobates: review last meeting points. | 15:10 |
| mathiaz | dendrobates: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20071023 | 15:10 |
| mathiaz | I haven't sent an email about tagging bugs for documentation to the ubuntu-doc team. | 15:11 |
| soren | I had an action point, too. | 15:11 |
| soren | I sent the e-mail to debian-devel about the default MTA stuff. | 15:12 |
| mathiaz | soren: ah says. So did you send your email ? | 15:12 |
| mathiaz | soren: what was the response ? | 15:12 |
| soren | Despite my efforts to emphasize the process and work included, no-one responded to that bit, and everyone started talking about if exim or postfix should be the default one. | 15:12 |
| soren | ...so the discussion has gotten nowhere at all :( | 15:13 |
| mathiaz | soren: has the thread finished ? | 15:13 |
| soren | Wel... it's dead. | 15:14 |
| soren | I can't find it in the ml archive right now. :/ | 15:14 |
| mathiaz | soren: may be you could send another email explaining that the default choice of the mta is a hot topic and that what you propose is a technical improvement to give choice the end user | 15:15 |
| mathiaz | soren: give choice to the end user or developer | 15:15 |
| soren | I thought about that, but I can already imagine the response. :) | 15:16 |
| soren | I'll try. | 15:16 |
| mathiaz | ACTION: soren will try to come up with a new email for debian-devel about the default MTA change. | 15:17 |
| soren | "but we can't do this before we've all agreed which mta should be our default".. and then the same discussion will start again. | 15:17 |
| soren | But I'm not bitter. | 15:17 |
| mathiaz | [ACTION] soren will try to come up with a new email for debian-devel about the default MTA change. | 15:17 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: soren will try to come up with a new email for debian-devel about the default MTA change. | 15:17 |
| soren | Moving right along.. | 15:17 |
| ivoks | soren: may the force be with you... | 15:18 |
| dendrobates | I thought we agreed on postfix in a previous meeting. | 15:18 |
| soren | dendrobates: *we* did. Debian didn't. | 15:18 |
| soren | dendrobates: ...and we'd really like to have Debian agree on the same technical way to do this, so that we don't go in different directions. | 15:19 |
| dendrobates | perhaps slangasek can help point us to the correct people to get on board before we make another post to the ml. | 15:19 |
| mathiaz | any other toughts about the last meeting ? | 15:19 |
| soren | dendrobates: Yeah, I could try talking to him. | 15:19 |
| soren | mathiaz: no | 15:20 |
| dendrobates | no | 15:20 |
| mathiaz | ok. Let's move on then. | 15:21 |
| mathiaz | [TOPIC] JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy | 15:21 |
| MootBot | New Topic: JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy | 15:21 |
| dendrobates | nealmcb added te next topic. | 15:21 |
| dendrobates | He does not seem to be with us. | 15:21 |
| soren | Maybe we can move to the next topic and return to this one if he shows up? | 15:22 |
| dendrobates | I would like to table this discussion until he can join us. | 15:22 |
| soren | snap | 15:22 |
| mathiaz | ok. Let's defer this discussion then. | 15:22 |
| mathiaz | [TOPIC] sudo bug discussion - dendrobates | 15:22 |
| MootBot | New Topic: sudo bug discussion - dendrobates | 15:22 |
| dendrobates | There have been sporadic reports of the user added at install time not being in the admin group. | 15:23 |
| dendrobates | this causes sudo not to work for that user. | 15:23 |
| ivoks | dendrobates: any examples? | 15:23 |
| soren | dendrobates: Actually, one of the reports mentioned that it was the %admin ALL=(ALL) ALL line that was missing from sudoers.. | 15:23 |
| pschulz01 | dendrobates: URL? | 15:24 |
| soren | http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3712031 | 15:24 |
| MootBot | LINK received: http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3712031 | 15:24 |
| mathiaz | dendrobates: is there a bug in LP ? | 15:24 |
| jdstrand | didn't I hear someone say it happened only when installing the mail-server task? | 15:24 |
| dendrobates | The reports have all been a little different, and I cannot reproduce it. | 15:24 |
| jdstrand | (I cannot remember where I heard/read that) | 15:24 |
| mathiaz | I've also heard about some thread in the forums | 15:25 |
| dendrobates | jdstrand: yes, that was one report, but it was not reproducable. | 15:25 |
| ivoks | m... this article... i've read it | 15:25 |
| ivoks | we really shouldn't base assumptions on it | 15:25 |
| dendrobates | I don't put too much stock in that particulat report. | 15:25 |
| dendrobates | but it has popped up too pften to be a coincidence IMO | 15:26 |
| soren | http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=590290 | 15:26 |
| MootBot | LINK received: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=590290 | 15:26 |
| dendrobates | I would like everyone to try at least once this week to reproduce this. I have done 20+ installs with no luck. | 15:27 |
| jdstrand | dendrobates: I am curious if all of this has been in Vms? | 15:27 |
| jdstrand | VMs | 15:27 |
| mathiaz | dendrobates: may be we could try to centralize all the links that describe such a problem ? | 15:27 |
| dendrobates | mathiaz: good idea. | 15:28 |
| ivoks | jdstrand: or maybe even with wubi or someting like that... | 15:28 |
| sommer | is there a bug we can leave comments on? | 15:28 |
| dendrobates | jdstrand: I have tried to reproduce it in VM and real HW. | 15:28 |
| mathiaz | dendrobates: is there a bug in LP about this ? | 15:28 |
| akincer | I did a server install yesterday and did not run into this issue. Had a separate issue, but it isn't part of this discusion | 15:28 |
| dendrobates | mathiaz: not yet. | 15:28 |
| mathiaz | ok. So I'll file a bug about this and assign to the server team then. | 15:28 |
| mathiaz | [ACTION] mathiaz will file a bug for the sudo bug to track all the links mentioning it. | 15:29 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: mathiaz will file a bug for the sudo bug to track all the links mentioning it. | 15:29 |
| dendrobates | we can keep track of the various reports on the lp bug report. | 15:29 |
| dendrobates | https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/user-setup/+bug/40684 perhaps they are using expert mode. | 15:31 |
| ubotu | Launchpad bug 40684 in user-setup "expert install user not a sudoer if root password given" [Medium,Confirmed] | 15:31 |
| ivoks | ah... expert mode | 15:31 |
| soren | Yeah, I just stumbled upon that. | 15:31 |
| soren | That is clearly intentional, though. | 15:31 |
| soren | The code very clearly checks if a root password has been set, and if so, no sudo-capable user is added. | 15:32 |
| dendrobates | quite old though. Should be looked at though. I did not try an expert install. | 15:32 |
| soren | https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sudo/+bug/162638 | 15:32 |
| ubotu | Launchpad bug 162638 in sudo "sudo - first user not in sudoers file" [Undecided,New] | 15:32 |
| zul | dendrobates: ill be trying a server install after the meeting so I can try to reproduce it | 15:32 |
| dendrobates | in the reported cases, no root password was set, allegedly | 15:32 |
| ivoks | i'll try expert install today | 15:33 |
| mathiaz | soren: it seems that this is a bug where we should track the links. | 15:33 |
| jdstrand | dendrobates: I haven't looked at that passwrod checking code. maybe it is as simple as a 'blank' password (eg, a space or tab or something) | 15:33 |
| dendrobates | jdstrand: it shouldn't be possible to inadvertantly do that from the installer | 15:34 |
| jdstrand | dendrobates: we should ask for /etc/shadow entry for root | 15:34 |
| jdstrand | or at least whether it has a password in it | 15:34 |
| dendrobates | anyway, I just wanted everyone to be aware. | 15:35 |
| jdstrand | (as opposed to '*' or '!' | 15:35 |
| mathiaz | I've just subscribed ubuntu-server to bug 162638 | 15:35 |
| ubotu | Launchpad bug 162638 in sudo "sudo - first user not in sudoers file" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/162638 | 15:35 |
| dendrobates | mathiaz: thanks. | 15:35 |
| mathiaz | I think it should be used to track all the information we found about this issue. | 15:36 |
| dendrobates | agreed | 15:36 |
| mathiaz | dendrobates: anything else about this issue ? | 15:36 |
| dendrobates | no | 15:37 |
| mathiaz | let's move on to the next topic then | 15:37 |
| mathiaz | [TOPIC] Hardy community projects - dendrobates | 15:37 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Hardy community projects - dendrobates | 15:37 |
| dendrobates | we would like a volunteer to pick up a project for hardy. | 15:38 |
| dendrobates | We would like to add a ruby on rails stack. | 15:38 |
| dendrobates | This would consist of adding the necessary packages to main ,and creating a tasksel task | 15:39 |
| ivoks | anyone knows anything about ruby? | 15:39 |
| dendrobates | this is perfect for someone going for core-dev. | 15:40 |
| zul | not me | 15:40 |
| coffeedude | nope. | 15:40 |
| dendrobates | or someone that wants to learn ruby. | 15:40 |
| sommer | I've done some script type programming with Ruby... cool language | 15:40 |
| dendrobates | or someone that knows ruby | 15:40 |
| nealmcb | ahh - daylight savings - damn | 15:41 |
| dendrobates | When everyone volunteers at once, I can't hear you. | 15:41 |
| ivoks | well | 15:41 |
| ivoks | i could do everything needed on apache side | 15:41 |
| sommer | I'm not haven't really done much packaging, but can probably help | 15:41 |
| ivoks | but i really don't know anything about gems and other ruby stuff | 15:42 |
| mathiaz | there was another ruby spec registered in LP. | 15:42 |
| sommer | s/I haven't/ | 15:42 |
| dantalizing | I would be willing to help but would need some direction | 15:42 |
| mathiaz | I can contact the person that registered the spec to see if he is interested in doing it. | 15:42 |
| dantalizing | a lot of direction | 15:43 |
| akincer | Pardon me, but it seems the question worth asking is "Does anyone here who knows anything about Ruby on Rails want to volunteer to head up a RoR project for Gutsy?" | 15:43 |
| mathiaz | akincer: s/gutsy/hardy/ | 15:43 |
| akincer | doh | 15:43 |
| akincer | No coffee today, what do you expect? | 15:43 |
| * coffeedude thought that was an implicit question anyways.... | 15:44 | |
| mathiaz | well - the first thing is to figure out what is the current state of ror in ubuntu. | 15:44 |
| sommer | is there a link to the spec? | 15:44 |
| nealmcb | [sorry to get my clocks messed up and miss so much of the meeting. can someone shoot me a transcript somehow of the meeting so far?] | 15:44 |
| mathiaz | sommer: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/rubyonrails | 15:45 |
| jdstrand | nealmcb: the JeOS stuff was postponed til you got here | 15:45 |
| nealmcb | :-) | 15:45 |
| sommer | mathiaz: thx | 15:45 |
| mathiaz | the actual wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RubyOnRailsStack | 15:46 |
| lionel | mathiaz: all is free, nothing has been chossen like mongrel versus fast-cgi or something like that. This topic was discused at UDS? | 15:46 |
| mathiaz | lionel: a little bit - but there wasn't enough knowledge around the table. | 15:46 |
| dendrobates | this is actually a different spec. But we can use it. I assigned jdstrand to create the spec, but since this exists, we can use it. | 15:47 |
| dendrobates | Does anyone know who David Portwood is? | 15:47 |
| lionel | due to some nightmare in the past for me to install the RoR stack, I'm fine with helping on this topic :) | 15:47 |
| jdstrand | yea | 15:47 |
| mathiaz | lionel: well you could help with drafting the spec then. | 15:47 |
| mathiaz | lionel: which is just about figure out what's wrong with the current way of installing ror. | 15:48 |
| lionel | I'll try to contact David first. | 15:48 |
| soren | someone's at the door.. brb. | 15:49 |
| lionel | mathiaz: more or less : nothing is packaged and all is fech with ruby packaging system :-( | 15:49 |
| mathiaz | lionel: david == dzportwood ? | 15:49 |
| lionel | but I agreee that's something that's necessary | 15:49 |
| dendrobates | We need the spec completed by thursday, which is not alot of time. | 15:50 |
| lionel | mathiaz: yes. to know if he want to help us to implement :) | 15:50 |
| lionel | dendrobates: well, there is nothing at tv tonight ;) | 15:50 |
| mathiaz | lionel: ok. So could you try to contact him ? | 15:50 |
| dendrobates | lionel: Ha, thanks. | 15:50 |
| lionel | yes, when the meeting is finished I send him a mail and I will digg in the spec | 15:51 |
| mathiaz | lionel: and since we may be short on time, could also add your thoughts to a discussion section on the wiki page ? | 15:51 |
| lionel | I have not a lot of experience with specs, I may require a bit help from you | 15:51 |
| lionel | mathiaz: sure, no problem | 15:51 |
| mathiaz | lionel: don't worry. I can be the approver of the spec. | 15:52 |
| mathiaz | [ACTION] lionel will contact david to write the ruby-on-rails spec. | 15:52 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: lionel will contact david to write the ruby-on-rails spec. | 15:52 |
| dendrobates | ok, that is an action item, lionel will work on the spec, and sommer, ivoks, and dantalizing will all help with the implementation. | 15:52 |
| * soren is back | 15:53 | |
| dendrobates | we should go back to JEOS now that nealmcb is here. | 15:53 |
| mathiaz | dendrobates: let's get the spec drafted and approved first. | 15:53 |
| mathiaz | ok. Let's get back to JEOS then. | 15:54 |
| dendrobates | true, but I want to capture who volunteered, so we don't have to ask again. | 15:54 |
| nealmcb | dendrobates: thanks | 15:54 |
| mathiaz | [TOPIC] JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy | 15:54 |
| mathiaz | [TOPIC] JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy | 15:54 |
| MootBot | New Topic: JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy | 15:54 |
| nealmcb | did folks read my email on the topic? | 15:54 |
| nealmcb | any comments on that? should I go thru it? someone else want to lead this item? | 15:55 |
| soren | It would be wonderful if you could lead it. | 15:55 |
| mathiaz | nealmcb: I've read your email. | 15:55 |
| nealmcb | I think documentation is a big part - lots of folks confused about what is out there | 15:55 |
| nealmcb | ...for gutsy. pretty easy to fix with a wiki page at help.ubuntu.com - right? | 15:56 |
| soren | Heck, *I*'m confused sometimes! | 15:56 |
| mathiaz | nealmcb: yes. Your proposal to create https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JeOS makes sense. | 15:57 |
| === georgy is now known as codingmaster | ||
| dendrobates | nealmcb: the question becomes what do we say about Jeos | 15:57 |
| nealmcb | a big question in my mind is whether we should somehow get the ubuntu-jeos-builder out there for gutsy somehow | 15:57 |
| soren | nealmcb: I plan on renaming that, by the way. | 15:57 |
| nealmcb | since it is so much nicer than the iso | 15:57 |
| soren | ...to remove a big part of the confusion in my head. | 15:58 |
| soren | To ubuntu-vm-builder or something. | 15:58 |
| nealmcb | dendrobates: what are the options? | 15:58 |
| nealmcb | ..for what we say... | 15:58 |
| soren | ...and when I'm done looking at virt-install I'll figure out if I'll roll them into one, or upload both of them. It'll only be a few days. | 15:58 |
| dendrobates | technically, I'm not sure we have much of a story at this point. | 15:59 |
| nealmcb | soren: right | 15:59 |
| nealmcb | I was also looking at rbuilder rpath.com last night - some very cool stuff there... | 15:59 |
| mathiaz | fwiw it can be used to quickly create virtual machines with specific packages installed. | 16:00 |
| nealmcb | dendrobates: my sense is that the momentum is now, and if we don't at least get the community involved in helping make jeos work well on ubuntu, they'll go elsewhere | 16:00 |
| mathiaz | ex: I want an ldap server using hardy. | 16:00 |
| dendrobates | nealmcb: ok. agreed | 16:01 |
| nealmcb | so a mailing list makes lots of sense, and more transparency from the folks working on it | 16:01 |
| nealmcb | there is a perception that canonical somehow is trying to make this a proprietary thing, which makes no sense to me | 16:01 |
| mathiaz | nealmcb: more transparency means having a roadmap | 16:01 |
| * soren has just reproduced the no-user-in-sudoers bug. | 16:01 | |
| soren | er... no. | 16:02 |
| soren | never mind :) | 16:02 |
| * pschulz01 smiles at soren. | 16:02 | |
| * nijaba guesses that he forgot to update his meeting time after DST change | 16:02 | |
| nealmcb | nijaba: you and me too.... | 16:02 |
| akincer | OT, but DST needs to die | 16:02 |
| nealmcb | nijaba: the topic is jeos now | 16:02 |
| mathiaz | nealmcb: do you think a team is needed ? | 16:03 |
| zul | well how far along is jeos? | 16:03 |
| nealmcb | mathiaz: you mean launchpad team? | 16:03 |
| nealmcb | probably | 16:03 |
| mathiaz | nealmcb: well - not necessarly an LP team. | 16:03 |
| nealmcb | but also mailing list for users and developers. I hate talking about this on the forums.... | 16:03 |
| mathiaz | nealmcb: if you want to have users joining the project, a team in the wiki makes more sense. | 16:04 |
| nealmcb | who wants to work on it? | 16:04 |
| dendrobates | zul: it exists, but there is no interesting technology, except the scritp that builds it. | 16:04 |
| soren | dendrobates: Well.. no. | 16:04 |
| soren | dendrobates: The script that builds the JeOS iso not exceptionally non-interesting. | 16:04 |
| soren | er.. s/not/is/ | 16:05 |
| pookey | hm, I'm an hour late :) | 16:05 |
| nealmcb | soren: I disagree! | 16:05 |
| dendrobates | soren: at least it is technology. | 16:05 |
| soren | The ubuntu-jeos-builder (which is sort of unrelated to JeOS, actually) is rather interesting, though. | 16:05 |
| nijaba | soren: exceptionally non-uninteresting. | 16:05 |
| nealmcb | ahh - right | 16:05 |
| dendrobates | isn't that what I said? | 16:05 |
| nealmcb | though i'd like to see how the jeos iso is built..... | 16:05 |
| mathiaz | I think that the script to build iso is interesting. | 16:05 |
| * nealmcb nods | 16:06 | |
| mathiaz | It can be used as a base to build virtual appliances. | 16:06 |
| nealmcb | but why an iso? why not a vm? | 16:06 |
| * nijaba nods as nealmcb | 16:06 | |
| akincer | And I, for one, would like a plethora of documentation on how to use that | 16:06 |
| soren | mathiaz: It's no different from any other cd building script, really. | 16:06 |
| mathiaz | to me it's just another output. | 16:06 |
| mathiaz | some user want to create an iso, others want to create a vm. | 16:07 |
| nealmcb | are any doc folks here? | 16:07 |
| nijaba | Iwas asked to write an article on how to build an appliance based on JeOS | 16:07 |
| nijaba | So I guess that will be a start for a doc | 16:07 |
| * sommer waves at nealmcb | 16:07 | |
| nealmcb | :-) | 16:07 |
| soren | mathiaz: If the vm builder should be part of this, we need a new name for it. A generic vm builder script does not match "Just enough OS" in any sane way, IMO. | 16:07 |
| soren | mathiaz: I see the relation of the two things, though. | 16:08 |
| pschulz01 | nijaba: I would be happy to review the article. | 16:08 |
| dendrobates | We could automate appliance building ala vmware vadk. | 16:08 |
| zul | I agree a vm would be more useful than an iso | 16:08 |
| nealmcb | soren: though jeos is a catchy name now. but I see your point | 16:08 |
| mathiaz | nijaba: would you mind writing a wiki page for your articile ? | 16:08 |
| nijaba | mathiaz: not at all | 16:08 |
| nijaba | soren: I will need some help from you to get started. | 16:09 |
| mathiaz | so what about starting a document on help.u.c ? | 16:09 |
| zul | for example most ISP would use a base VM rather than an ISO to install images for clients | 16:09 |
| akincer | Not everyone would find a vm more useful than an iso. Despite that being the trend, I can think of many uses of an iso as an appliance install | 16:09 |
| nijaba | mathiaz: perfect | 16:09 |
| soren | nijaba: Sure. | 16:09 |
| mathiaz | nijaba: do you already have a skeleton in mind ? | 16:10 |
| zul | or have a switch that either builds an iso or a vm | 16:10 |
| nealmcb | having easy tips on how to dpkg-reconfigure after the vm comes up (or before?) would help | 16:10 |
| nealmcb | akincer: what use case are you thinking of ? | 16:10 |
| nijaba | mathiaz: for a_z step by step install install of a given web app (which I have not picked) | 16:10 |
| mathiaz | it seems that we also need a way to capture all the other ideas of improvements | 16:10 |
| soren | bugs.lp.net/ubuntu-jeos/+new ? | 16:11 |
| dendrobates | we are technically out of time. | 16:11 |
| akincer | nealmcb: Old machines that would do fine as a simple appliance like a DNS server | 16:11 |
| mathiaz | dendrobates: is there another meeting scheduled now ? | 16:12 |
| nealmcb | akincer: I though jeos explicitely meant vm in people's minds, and putting lots of hw support for old hardware in there would be a different focus | 16:12 |
| nijaba | akincer: the problem is that the JeOS kernel is stripped of most drivers that you will need | 16:12 |
| nealmcb | does anyone have to leave now? | 16:12 |
| dendrobates | I don't think so, I was just stating the obvious. | 16:12 |
| akincer | wouldn't the point of having a builder be to add in things like drivers? Maybe I don't understand enough about JeOS | 16:12 |
| mathiaz | soren: is there a spec for jeos in hardy ? | 16:13 |
| soren | mathiaz: Well... Depends on what you mean by "jeos". | 16:13 |
| soren | See? | 16:13 |
| soren | mathiaz: If it's for Ubuntu as a guest os, then yes. | 16:13 |
| mathiaz | I'm trying to figure out where we can keep track of the proposed improvements | 16:13 |
| soren | Bugs on launchpad? | 16:13 |
| mathiaz | soren: ok. | 16:14 |
| nealmcb | but a roadmap in a wiki spec would be more helpful for many folks | 16:14 |
| soren | https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/jeos-hardy is about Ubuntu as a guest os | 16:14 |
| mathiaz | I'll also add a section about it in the ServerTeam Roadmap. | 16:14 |
| nijaba | mathiaz: I think that JeOS is and should stay as Ubuntu as a guest os, but need to increase the number of virtualization environments supported | 16:14 |
| soren | There's currently no spec about the vm builder thing. | 16:14 |
| akincer | If I'm simply uninformed, ignore my assertion | 16:14 |
| mathiaz | akincer: if you're uninformed, we need to fix it. | 16:15 |
| soren | akincer: You rarely care much about extra drivers in a vm, do you? | 16:15 |
| nijaba | akincer: your point is good, but that would be an appliance builder vs a virtual appliance builder | 16:15 |
| nijaba | we certainly could use both | 16:15 |
| zul | soren: actually if i had a weird usb key drive then yes I would | 16:16 |
| akincer | soren: Right, but I was specifically talking about building an appliance for say an unused machine to be a DNS machine | 16:16 |
| soren | zul: How weird? | 16:16 |
| mathiaz | akincer: that's out of the scope of JeOS. | 16:16 |
| zul | soren: usb thumbscanner or something like that | 16:16 |
| soren | akincer: Ah, I thought you still meant in a virtual machine, but on old hardware. | 16:16 |
| zul | soren: or a wireless driver that the kernel doesnt support but there are drivers out there that does support it | 16:17 |
| akincer | Is there a link to the scope of JeOS? | 16:17 |
| mathiaz | akincer: not that know of. That's what we need to fix | 16:17 |
| akincer | wait, think I see it | 16:17 |
| soren | zul: Wireless driver? In a VM? | 16:17 |
| zul | soren: as an exmample | 16:17 |
| soren | zul: I fail to see the use of that. | 16:17 |
| zul | soren: people have done weirder things | 16:18 |
| mathiaz | so to get back on track, what can we do ? | 16:18 |
| nealmcb | document what we offer in gutsy | 16:18 |
| mathiaz | nijaba will write a short tutorial about using jeos to build a virtual appliances. | 16:18 |
| nealmcb | backport some vm builder to gutsy | 16:18 |
| nealmcb | build a community around it | 16:19 |
| nealmcb | and go for the gold in hardy | 16:19 |
| mathiaz | anyone interested in writing a simple wiki page that presents and explain what is JeOS ? | 16:20 |
| nealmcb | getting rid of unneeded app-level stuff seems like an important goal to me, and a hard one | 16:20 |
| mathiaz | or would this part of nijaba's tutorial ? | 16:20 |
| nijaba | mathiaz: will be part of it | 16:20 |
| nealmcb | the jeos page should list various related pages, and include our working definition | 16:20 |
| nijaba | in fact, I have already started this part internally | 16:20 |
| mathiaz | it looks like the bigest problem now is documentation. let's focus on this first. | 16:21 |
| nealmcb | I've put various hints on using the jeos builder on that forums page | 16:21 |
| nijaba | preparing the eb page for u.c/server/jeos | 16:21 |
| === iPage is now known as Shely | ||
| nealmcb | and put the ubuntu-jeos-builder in my ppa | 16:21 |
| nealmcb | but don't want to go to far without a plan.... | 16:21 |
| mathiaz | nealmcb: can you copy your hints on h.u.c/community/JeOS ? | 16:22 |
| nealmcb | absolutely - though I think they would be in a sub-page | 16:22 |
| soren | Ok, let me just get this straigt: | 16:22 |
| nealmcb | and picking the vm builder script of choice is a top priority so I look forward to soren's thoughts on virt-install etc | 16:22 |
| nealmcb | does virt-install require x11? | 16:22 |
| zul | no | 16:23 |
| soren | I'm the only one who's annoyed that JeOS refers to two completely separate things? Ie. both Ubuntu as a guest os and the vm builder thingie? | 16:23 |
| mralphabet | and third a physical machine os | 16:23 |
| nijaba | so let's have JeOS and JeOS-Builder | 16:23 |
| mathiaz | soren: nope. There is some confusion. | 16:23 |
| nealmcb | a jeos builder can also build simple vms right? | 16:24 |
| nealmcb | but a vm builder might not be very savvy about tight jeos images | 16:24 |
| soren | mathiaz: Then can we please, please, please not put anything about the vm builder script onto h.u.c/whatever/JeOS/whatever ? | 16:24 |
| mathiaz | soren: JeOS is ubuntu as a virtual guest. | 16:24 |
| nealmcb | so what is wrong with using the hip jeos term? | 16:24 |
| mathiaz | soren: vm builder script is part of the virtualization spec. | 16:24 |
| akincer | If they are two entirely different things, I don't think having similar names is conducive to clarity | 16:24 |
| soren | mathiaz: Not the virtualisation spec I wrote :) | 16:24 |
| soren | mathiaz: I can be, but it isn't. | 16:25 |
| nealmcb | I'm just talking about the name of the tool. ubuntu-jeos-builder now (a bit long) | 16:25 |
| nealmcb | jeos-builder would be better perhaps | 16:25 |
| soren | vm-builder! | 16:25 |
| * nijaba beeps -> trademark | 16:25 | |
| nealmcb | vm's are so 1990's... | 16:25 |
| nealmcb | :-) | 16:25 |
| mathiaz | soren: ok. It seems that vm----builder would build on JeOS | 16:25 |
| soren | I just hate that every conversation I have about JeOS has to start with: "So, when you say JeOS, do you mean the entirely separate installabal ISO, or do you mean the wicked cool vm builder script, I wrote?" | 16:25 |
| zul | i would have said virt-factory | 16:25 |
| nealmcb | I'm not firm on that opinion, but I think jeos has mindshare now. it jeos trademarked? | 16:26 |
| soren | nealmcb: Good question. | 16:26 |
| dendrobates | nealmcb: I don't know. | 16:26 |
| * zul must go to work | 16:26 | |
| nealmcb | nijaba: you brought up trademarks - in relation to what? | 16:27 |
| nijaba | to vm-xxxx | 16:27 |
| nealmcb | is vm-xxxx trademarked? | 16:27 |
| nijaba | nope, but vm- is very close to vmware | 16:27 |
| nealmcb | ah | 16:27 |
| nijaba | so I would suggest getting away from it if we want to do stuff outside of vmware | 16:28 |
| nealmcb | regardless of what we call it - will we package "jeos-builder" for gutsy somehow? | 16:28 |
| soren | I doubt it. | 16:28 |
| nealmcb | (other than my ppa :-) | 16:28 |
| mathiaz | ok. so it seems that this is still confusing. and we still have some things to talk about. | 16:28 |
| soren | Not through any official channels anyway. | 16:28 |
| mathiaz | let's get this to the mailing list. | 16:28 |
| * pschulz01 says: goodnight all. will ne reading the logs | 16:29 | |
| mathiaz | I'll reply to your email nealmcb | 16:29 |
| nealmcb | but it is so cool - that is where we get traction! | 16:29 |
| * nijaba +1 to mathiaz proposal | 16:29 | |
| nealmcb | 90 seconds to a new vm! | 16:29 |
| mathiaz | with a summary of the previous conversation. | 16:29 |
| nealmcb | great | 16:29 |
| mathiaz | [ACTION] mathiaz will reply to nealmcb mail about jeos. | 16:29 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: mathiaz will reply to nealmcb mail about jeos. | 16:29 |
| mathiaz | [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap. | 16:30 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap. | 16:30 |
| akincer | Gotta go. Goodbye and good luck. | 16:30 |
| mathiaz | The Roadmap: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap | 16:30 |
| mathiaz | nealmcb: how is the factoids going ? | 16:31 |
| * soren wonders if mathiaz lives in a hexagonal flat | 16:31 | |
| nealmcb | I have't put any time into them - jeos is too much fun and work is pressing. but I'll get back to them | 16:31 |
| ivoks | mathiaz: what about postfix+dovecot? | 16:32 |
| soren | :) | 16:32 |
| ivoks | mathiaz: i've tested it and i can't say anything else than 'works as advertised' | 16:32 |
| nealmcb | and I'll work on a jeos factoid :-) | 16:32 |
| * mathiaz checks that his flat hasn't changed drastically during this meeting | 16:32 | |
| ivoks | a long one :) | 16:33 |
| lamont | ivoks: dovecot should "just work" with the current postfix | 16:33 |
| * nijaba states that mathiaz has actually moved out of the hexagon | 16:33 | |
| soren | mathiaz: I'm just curious where the ".* corner" terminology comes from. | 16:33 |
| ivoks | lamont: we were talking about SASL over dovcot in postfix | 16:33 |
| mathiaz | soren: that comes from jono | 16:33 |
| soren | mathiaz: oic | 16:33 |
| * nealmcb finally gets the hexagon joke :-) | 16:34 | |
| lamont | ivoks: right | 16:34 |
| ivoks | lamont: so, we would like to provide that out of the box | 16:34 |
| lamont | and it should "just work". If not, iz bug and should be filed | 16:34 |
| ivoks | lamont: it does just work :) | 16:34 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: what is the goal of this ? | 16:34 |
| ivoks | mathiaz: we talked about that at UDS | 16:35 |
| ivoks | mathiaz: replacing saslauthd with dovecot | 16:35 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: yes - it's been a while since then. | 16:35 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: right. | 16:35 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: so what needs to be done ? | 16:36 |
| sommer | just to note the docs have been updated to use Dovecot SASL. | 16:36 |
| ivoks | mathiaz: we need to add 1 or 2 lines in main.cf | 16:36 |
| sommer | for Hardy anyway | 16:36 |
| nijaba | mathiaz: also update the mail task ? | 16:36 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: you said you've tested it - is there anything that can be done improve it ? | 16:36 |
| mathiaz | sommer: great ! thanks. | 16:36 |
| sommer | np | 16:36 |
| ivoks | mathiaz: yes, we could provide it out of the box? | 16:36 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: where should this be done ? in the dovecot postinst script ? | 16:37 |
| ivoks | that's the problem i wanted to disccuss | 16:37 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: OTOH I'm not sure we can mangle the postfix configuration file | 16:37 |
| ivoks | we can't do it in postinst, since that will break debian policy :/ | 16:37 |
| soren | No. | 16:38 |
| lamont | mathiaz: I'd be happy to mangle the config file | 16:38 |
| ivoks | we talked about tasksel postinst, and it's the same thing... | 16:38 |
| soren | postfix provides postconf to alter its config, so all should be good. | 16:38 |
| lamont | ivoks: in dovecot postinst? | 16:38 |
| soren | SEction 11.7, IIRC. | 16:38 |
| mathiaz | lamont: what would you suggest ? | 16:38 |
| lamont | yeah - that just means that we need an interface | 16:38 |
| ivoks | soren: that's ok, yes... | 16:38 |
| soren | Ah, 10.7. | 16:38 |
| soren | 10.7.4 in particular. | 16:38 |
| soren | lamont: Interface? | 16:38 |
| ivoks | lamont: dovecot postinst could check if postconf exsist and then use it to set up sasl | 16:39 |
| soren | Hm... It would be nice if it asked first. :) | 16:39 |
| ivoks | yeah... | 16:39 |
| soren | A simple yes/no, though. | 16:39 |
| lamont | and 10.7.4 says postconf -e will make things right | 16:39 |
| mathiaz | soren: OTOH this is one more question | 16:39 |
| lamont | note that modifying config files does require that you ask first | 16:40 |
| ivoks | that's why i was thinking about new package | 16:40 |
| ivoks | ubuntu-mail-server | 16:40 |
| ivoks | wich would depend and replace postifx and dovecot | 16:40 |
| lamont | ivoks: ew | 16:40 |
| soren | mathiaz: ...that's not much of an issue, as it turns out. | 16:40 |
| lamont | it shouldn't need to replace | 16:40 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: tasksel seems like a good candidate for that | 16:41 |
| sommer | I have another meeting... thanks all | 16:41 |
| ivoks | replace means 'that's my config too, and i can edit it' | 16:41 |
| lamont | mathiaz: it's not a question in base install | 16:41 |
| soren | mathiaz: We discussed this earlier (mysql root password stuff). | 16:41 |
| lamont | ivoks: if it uses postconf, then it's not editing its config, and it's policy compliant | 16:41 |
| mathiaz | ok. It seems that it needs to be discussed a little bit more. | 16:41 |
| ivoks | sorry, i forgot that we need to change dovecot's config also | 16:41 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: could you file a bug for that ? | 16:41 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: against dovecot. | 16:42 |
| ivoks | ok | 16:42 |
| lamont | also, please note that neither main.cf nor master.cf is a conffile, nor should they ever be. | 16:42 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: Are you willing to do the packaging work also ? | 16:42 |
| ivoks | mathiaz: yes | 16:42 |
| * soren hugs ivoks | 16:42 | |
| * nijaba hugs him too | 16:42 | |
| mathiaz | ivoks: attach your debdiff and we'll keep discussing the technical bits in the bug. | 16:43 |
| ivoks | ok | 16:43 |
| lamont | ivoks: and don't replace dovecot or postfix, please. | 16:43 |
| mathiaz | [ACTION] ivoks will file a bug to work on dovecot and postfix integration. | 16:43 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: ivoks will file a bug to work on dovecot and postfix integration. | 16:43 |
| ivoks | lamont: ok, i'll change dovecot's config and postconf postfix | 16:43 |
| lamont | ivoks: if there's a way to export an interface from dovecot, that'd be the win tere. | 16:44 |
| lamont | there. | 16:44 |
| ivoks | i know... | 16:44 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: on a related note, I've looked at fast-cgi | 16:45 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: the plan was to move fast-cgid to main | 16:46 |
| ivoks | um... fcgid | 16:46 |
| ivoks | not fast-cgi | 16:46 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: I've described this in the webapplication spec. | 16:46 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: yes. | 16:46 |
| ivoks | ok | 16:46 |
| soren | Yeah, -mod-fastcgi iz evil. | 16:47 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: I had one issue: Why choose mod_fcgid over mod_fastcgi ? | 16:47 |
| ivoks | i'm also eager to do packaging work for that | 16:47 |
| ivoks | it's evil :) | 16:47 |
| soren | mathiaz: mod_fastcgi is non-free. | 16:47 |
| mathiaz | soren: yes - I've already mentionned that. | 16:47 |
| mathiaz | is there another reason ? | 16:48 |
| soren | mathiaz: ...but used to be the only way to get apache to do fastcgi, which in turn is the reason why the switch away from mod_php[45] hasn't happened a loooong time ago. | 16:48 |
| soren | mathiaz: That's not enough? :) | 16:48 |
| mathiaz | what about performance ? | 16:48 |
| nijaba | and security ? | 16:48 |
| ivoks | i will look into all that | 16:49 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: the next step for this is to write a MIR, which needs that sort of information. | 16:49 |
| ivoks | and write about it | 16:49 |
| mathiaz | ivoks: ok. great ! | 16:49 |
| ivoks | i know | 16:49 |
| mathiaz | [ACTION]: ivoks will write a MIR to include mod-fcgid in main. | 16:50 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: : ivoks will write a MIR to include mod-fcgid in main. | 16:50 |
| nealmcb | by the way for those that came late like me: http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.20071120_1500.html | 16:51 |
| nealmcb | and http://kryten.incognitus.net/mootbot/meetings/ubuntu-meeting.log.20071120_1500.html | 16:51 |
| mathiaz | Is there any comments on the ServerTeam Roadmap ? | 16:51 |
| nealmcb | I love how mootbot keeps meeting notes in real-time :-) | 16:52 |
| ivoks | roadmap to heaven :) | 16:52 |
| mathiaz | ok. We've almost run out of time. | 16:54 |
| ivoks | i'll also take a look at some modules for apache | 16:54 |
| mathiaz | do we need another meeting in one week ? | 16:55 |
| ivoks | which aren't in ubuntu, but are life savers... | 16:55 |
| nealmcb | mathiaz: sounds useful to me | 16:55 |
| nijaba | +1 | 16:55 |
| ivoks | VOTE | 16:55 |
| mathiaz | we can schedule one next week at 16:00 UTC | 16:56 |
| nealmcb | is there a conflict with 15:00? | 16:56 |
| mathiaz | 15:00 is a bit too early for the west coast people. | 16:56 |
| soren | Slackers. | 16:56 |
| * nealmcb nods | 16:56 | |
| nijaba | specially for mathiaz | 16:56 |
| mathiaz | we used to run the meeting at 15:00 UTC but with DST it has changed | 16:56 |
| mathiaz | the kernel team irc meeting is at 17:00 UTC | 16:57 |
| nealmcb | is 1600 bad in the summertime? or should we (gasp) schedule it in some DST-using timezone for calendar sanity? | 16:57 |
| * nealmcb needs a calendar that can schedule in UTC.... | 16:57 | |
| mathiaz | ok. So next meeting will be next week at 16:00 UTC | 16:57 |
| mathiaz | same place. | 16:58 |
| soren | I'd just like to direct everyone's attention at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html .. There's a few server packages on there that need testing before they can make their way to -updates. | 16:58 |
| nealmcb | and you can test some with vms I bet :-) | 16:58 |
| soren | If people could test them and report on the relevant bugs if it works for them, that would be a great help. | 16:58 |
| soren | nealmcb: Oh, yeah. | 16:58 |
| dendrobates | I have to go to another meeting, I'll check the logs for further developments. | 16:59 |
| mathiaz | and don't forget the merges. | 16:59 |
| mathiaz | dendrobates: well we've finished. | 16:59 |
| mathiaz | thanks all for your participation | 16:59 |
| nijaba | thanks ! | 16:59 |
| nealmcb | thanks! | 16:59 |
| mathiaz | #endmeeting | 16:59 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 16:58. | 16:59 |
| ivoks | a long one | 17:00 |
| ivoks | 2 hours | 17:00 |
| nealmcb | we did the dst "jump back" during the meeting so it was really only one hour of clock time | 17:00 |
| nealmcb | :-) | 17:00 |
| ivoks | duration is not the same as time :) | 17:01 |
| nealmcb | yeah - the leap-second folks keep saying that | 17:01 |
| ivoks | and you were on hour late :p | 17:01 |
| pookey | hi mathiaz , thanks for accepting my application to the server team :) | 17:01 |
| ivoks | one | 17:01 |
| mathiaz | pookey: you're welcome :) | 17:02 |
| nijaba | Take care everybody. See you next week | 17:02 |
| nealmcb | ivoks: yup - only 100 minutes for me.... | 17:02 |
| === asac_ is now known as asac | ||
| === dendrobates is now known as dendro-away | ||
| mdz__ | mjg59,Keybuk: ping | 19:55 |
| === mdz__ is now known as mdz_ | ||
| mjg59 | Hi | 19:55 |
| mdz_ | good evening | 19:55 |
| mjg59 | We still seem to be missing tech board meetings from the calendar | 19:55 |
| mdz_ | mjg59: which calendar? | 20:00 |
| mdz_ | they're on mine | 20:00 |
| mdz_ | the fridge is a black box to me | 20:00 |
| mjg59 | Well, missing from the topic (for instance) | 20:01 |
| mdz_ | I think that's driven by the fridge | 20:01 |
| mdz_ | Keybuk: are you available for the meeting? | 20:01 |
| mdz_ | sabdfl is on holiday | 20:01 |
| mdz_ | I'll ring Scott | 20:02 |
| mdz_ | no answer | 20:03 |
| mdz_ | #startmeeting | 20:04 |
| MootBot | Meeting started at 20:03. The chair is mdz_. | 20:04 |
| MootBot | Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] | 20:04 |
| mdz_ | [TOPIC] Martin Pitt's proposal for tightening the MOTU SRU process | 20:04 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Martin Pitt's proposal for tightening the MOTU SRU process | 20:04 |
| mdz_ | mjg59: have you had a look at this? | 20:04 |
| pitti_ | hi | 20:06 |
| mdz_ | it seems eminently sensible to me | 20:06 |
| === pitti_ is now known as pitti | ||
| mdz_ | (1) is a no-brainer | 20:07 |
| Keybuk | to me also | 20:07 |
| Keybuk | (hi, btw) | 20:07 |
| mdz_ | we should start with the same policy as for main, and any divergence from that can be done later with appropriate justification | 20:07 |
| mjg59 | Yes, it seems broadly sensible to me | 20:07 |
| mdz_ | I think 2b is likely more effective than 2a | 20:08 |
| mdz_ | any MOTU should be able to read an SRU request and confirm that it meets the documented policy | 20:08 |
| mdz_ | particularly since the requestor must explain how it does | 20:08 |
| pitti | sorry, what's the topic? | 20:08 |
| mdz_ | <MootBot> New Topic: Martin Pitt's proposal for tightening the MOTU SRU process | 20:09 |
| mdz_ | I'm referring to the numbered points in your email, which it seems was only sent to technical-board so far | 20:09 |
| pitti | ah, thanks | 20:09 |
| pitti | sistpoty told me that this will also be discussed on the next MOTU meeting, but that will be some days | 20:10 |
| mdz_ | regarding point 3, rejecting uploads which don't have a bug reference is perfectly acceptable in my opinion | 20:10 |
| mdz_ | even if the policy were broadened, there needs to be a bug report filed to correspond to the SRU and explain in more detail what it's about | 20:11 |
| mdz_ | and referring to that in the changelog is just basic good practice | 20:11 |
| mdz_ | that's a very low bar | 20:11 |
| mdz_ | pitti: would you like to explain your preference for 2a over 2b? | 20:11 |
| mdz_ | pitti: and may I paste your points in the channel for context? | 20:11 |
| * pitti caught up on ubuntu-devel@ now, seems there is basically a consensus | 20:12 | |
| pitti | mdz_: feel free to paste anything from my mail | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | (1) Reintroduce a policy what kinds of bugs should be fixed in stable | 20:13 |
| pitti | mdz_: slight preference because this would mean that we have a team which gets experienced with the nature and handling of SRUs | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | releases. Ideally this should be identical to the one for main | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | [3]. | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | (2a) Reinstate the MOTU-SRU team and require an ack from a team member | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | before the upload is done. | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | or | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | (2b) Require acks of at least two other MOTUs before a universe SRU bug | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | is considered approved and ready to upload. | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | (3) The archive admins will reject any upload which does not fulfill | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | above criteria. They will reject uploads without any notice if the | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | changelog does not have a bug reference. (It takes much time to | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | find the corresponding bug report otherwise, or just to find that | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | there is none at all.) | 20:13 |
| mdz_ | pitti: how would you define the role of the team? to make a judgement about whether an SRU proposal meets the criteria? | 20:14 |
| pitti | right, pretty much what ubuntu-sru does for main ATM: approve/deny/discuss patches, mangle bug tasks, supervise and enforce policy | 20:14 |
| mdz_ | if so, I that's not so specialized that I think we need a team to house that experience, but if it would make the process work more smoothly, I have no particular objection to it | 20:14 |
| mdz_ | ok, there's a bit more to it then | 20:15 |
| mdz_ | if they're expected to make judgements about the implementation and discuss patches | 20:15 |
| pitti | TBH I'd leave that decision between 2a) and 2b) to the MOTUs themselves | 20:15 |
| pitti | if they don't want such a team and think that manpower is an issue, let's try peer review first | 20:15 |
| pitti | that spreads the patch review and discussion about the necessity, which is a good thing | 20:15 |
| mdz_ | I'm happy to delegate it to the MOTU council | 20:16 |
| mdz_ | and let them decide | 20:16 |
| mdz_ | mjg59,Keybuk: any other comments or questions for pitti? | 20:16 |
| pitti | (between 2a and 2b, right?) | 20:16 |
| Keybuk | nope, none from me | 20:16 |
| mjg59 | I think I'm happy with that conclusion | 20:16 |
| mdz_ | pitti: yes | 20:19 |
| mdz_ | [VOTE] confirm approval for pitti's plan, delegating the decision between 2a and 2b to the MOTU Council | 20:19 |
| MootBot | Please vote on: confirm approval for pitti's plan, delegating the decision between 2a and 2b to the MOTU Council. | 20:19 |
| MootBot | Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot | 20:19 |
| MootBot | E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting | 20:19 |
| mdz_ | +1 | 20:20 |
| MootBot | +1 received from mdz_. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 | 20:20 |
| Keybuk | +1 | 20:20 |
| MootBot | +1 received from Keybuk. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 | 20:20 |
| mjg59 | +1 | 20:20 |
| MootBot | +1 received from mjg59. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 | 20:20 |
| mdz_ | #endvote | 20:20 |
| mdz_ | MootBot: poke | 20:20 |
| mdz_ | #endvote | 20:20 |
| pitti | thanks | 20:20 |
| mdz_ | anyway | 20:20 |
| mdz_ | pitti: will you communicate the decision to the council on our behalf? | 20:21 |
| pitti | mdz_: maybe you need to address it? | 20:21 |
| pitti | mdz_: yes, I'm happy to do that | 20:21 |
| mdz_ | MootBot: #endvote | 20:21 |
| mdz_ | pitti: ok, thanks | 20:21 |
| mdz_ | [ACTION] pitti to liaise with MOTU Council to implement the plan | 20:21 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: pitti to liaise with MOTU Council to implement the plan | 20:21 |
| mdz_ | [TOPIC] Perl regular expressions in grep | 20:22 |
| MootBot | Vote is in progress. Finishing now. | 20:22 |
| MootBot | Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3 | 20:22 |
| MootBot | New Topic: Perl regular expressions in grep | 20:22 |
| mdz_ | this was raised by Joe Terranova <joeterranova@ubuntu.com> via email | 20:22 |
| Keybuk | err, do you have the e-mail? | 20:22 |
| mdz_ | the issue is that he wants grep linked with libpcre to provide perl-compatible regex support | 20:22 |
| mdz_ | discussion is here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/15051 | 20:22 |
| ubotu | Launchpad bug 15051 in grep "grep -P is not supported" [Medium,Confirmed] | 20:22 |
| mdz_ | Keybuk: I've also forwarded the email to you | 20:23 |
| Keybuk | oh, yes, I saw that one | 20:23 |
| Keybuk | didn't libpcre just have a *major* security hole? | 20:23 |
| mjg59 | grep is required - pcre is important | 20:24 |
| mjg59 | (from a point of view of just worrying about priorities) | 20:24 |
| mdz_ | I don't see the problem with pcregrep, to be honest | 20:24 |
| mdz_ | it's not as if this is a standard grep feature | 20:24 |
| mdz_ | Keybuk: I don't know, but it's already in main and used by gobs of stuff | 20:25 |
| Keybuk | isn't that basically just "perl -n" ? | 20:25 |
| mdz_ | including network services | 20:25 |
| mdz_ | Keybuk: no, not quite | 20:26 |
| mdz_ | it provides grep-like command line options | 20:26 |
| mjg59 | There was an issue with perl's regular expression library, but we didn't ship updates to libpcre | 20:26 |
| mdz_ | it ships with pcre3 | 20:26 |
| Keybuk | What's wrong with linking grep against pcre? | 20:28 |
| mdz_ | the only point raised in the bug is that it's in /usr/lib | 20:29 |
| mdz_ | and therefore would need to be moved to /lib | 20:29 |
| mjg59 | Which is hardly an issue | 20:29 |
| mdz_ | I have no particular objection to that, but it means maintaining that delta from Debian and doesn't buy us much | 20:29 |
| Keybuk | it's in /lib in Fedora | 20:30 |
| mdz_ | the Debian bug is http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=350468 | 20:30 |
| ubotu | Debian bug 350468 in libpcre3 "libpcre3: install libpcre.so* in /lib" [Wishlist,Open] | 20:30 |
| Keybuk | why won't Debian put it in /lib ? | 20:30 |
| * ogra1 tries to find out what a gob is to determine hw much stuff in main uses it | 20:30 | |
| mdz_ | sounds like the Debian grep maintainers are on board with it | 20:31 |
| mdz_ | but not the pcre3 maintainer(s) | 20:31 |
| mjg59 | We'd need to maintain a small delta and we'd use up an extra 150K in / | 20:32 |
| mjg59 | I don't think this is a compelling argument against doing it | 20:32 |
| mdz_ | the other question is, who would do the work and look after it? | 20:32 |
| mdz_ | there aren't any comments from core-devs in support | 20:32 |
| mdz_ | I have no argument against the technical correctness of doing this, only practical questions | 20:33 |
| mjg59 | I'm happy with us making the technical decision, and then leaving the practical ones up to someone who cares | 20:33 |
| mdz_ | if someone in core-dev wants to do it, I'm not bothered | 20:33 |
| Keybuk | do we need to care? if he's asked the TB for a decision, and we have consensus, then actually persuading someone to do it is his problem? :) | 20:33 |
| mdz_ | I suppose not, but it's the obvious next question | 20:34 |
| mjg59 | I don't think worrying about who's going to do something this trivial is our problem | 20:35 |
| mdz_ | [VOTE] approve moving libpcre (~150k) from /usr/lib to /lib to accomodate grep -P | 20:35 |
| MootBot | Please vote on: approve moving libpcre (~150k) from /usr/lib to /lib to accomodate grep -P. | 20:35 |
| MootBot | Public votes can be registered by saying +1/-1/+0 in the channel, private votes by messaging the channel followed by +1/-1/+0 to MootBot | 20:35 |
| MootBot | E.g. /msg MootBot +1 #ubuntu-meeting | 20:35 |
| mdz_ | +1 | 20:35 |
| MootBot | +1 received from mdz_. 1 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 1 | 20:35 |
| Keybuk | +1 | 20:35 |
| MootBot | +1 received from Keybuk. 2 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 2 | 20:35 |
| mjg59 | +1 | 20:35 |
| MootBot | +1 received from mjg59. 3 for, 0 against. 0 have abstained. Count is now 3 | 20:35 |
| mdz_ | #endvote | 20:35 |
| mdz_ | MootBot: silly bot | 20:35 |
| mdz_ | [TOPIC] AOB | 20:35 |
| MootBot | Vote is in progress. Finishing now. | 20:35 |
| MootBot | Final result is 3 for, 0 against. 0 abstained. Total: 3 | 20:35 |
| MootBot | New Topic: AOB | 20:35 |
| mdz_ | any other business? | 20:36 |
| mdz_ | [ACTION] mdz to communicate libpcre decision to the relevant Launchpad bug | 20:36 |
| MootBot | ACTION received: mdz to communicate libpcre decision to the relevant Launchpad bug | 20:36 |
| mdz_ | adjourned, thanks all | 20:37 |
| mdz_ | #endmeeting | 20:37 |
| MootBot | Meeting finished at 20:36. | 20:37 |
| Keybuk | np :) | 20:37 |
| ogra1 | :) | 20:37 |
| === ogra1 is now known as ogra | ||
| === tonyy is now known as tonyyarusso | ||
| === soren_ is now known as soren | ||
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