=== SD-Plissken is now known as SD-Plissken`away === tritium_ is now known as tritium [08:03] Greetings everybody! === doko_ is now known as doko === DrPepperKid is now known as MacSlow === dholbach_ is now known as dholbac === dholbac is now known as dholbach [13:06] @schedule montreal [13:06] Schedule for America/Montreal: 22 Nov 09:00: Desktop Team Development | 23 Nov 07:00: MOTU meeting | 29 Nov 09:00: Desktop Team Development === Shely is now known as iPage [14:48] @now [14:48] Current time in Etc/UTC: November 20 2007, 14:48:05 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 1 day [14:48] Figures. [14:55] Meeting in 1 day? [14:56] No, in 5 minutes. [14:56] Server meeting. [14:56] Right, not sure I'll participate much, but I wanted to be here [14:56] Oh, Desktop Team Development. Should have read the words before the 1 day part [14:57] morning [14:57] morning [14:57] No, it's not. [14:58] It's all relative [14:58] soren: yes it is... [14:58] Hi everyone ! [14:58] Um.. I'm quite sure I can tell when it's morning and when it isn't... And it really isn't right now. [14:59] Hi, mathiaz! [14:59] hi all [14:59] soren: im sure you can, but let me assure you it is morning [14:59] hi ivoks [14:59] hey mathiaz [14:59] It's 5 oclock somewhere [14:59] Yes. In the afternoon. [15:00] * soren shakes his head [15:00] and it is also 5AM somewhere [15:00] guys, every second somewhere is midnight, so... [15:01] its all black and white to me [15:01] alright let's get the ubuntu server team meeting started [15:01] #startmeeting [15:01] Meeting started at 15:00. The chair is mathiaz. [15:01] Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE] [15:02] mathiaz: +1 [15:03] So I'd like to appoligize for the last meeting not being run. [15:03] some of the team members were not available to attend it. [15:03] it's been a long month since the last one. [15:04] I think it was before UDS. [15:04] then we have lots of things to talk about [15:04] * dholbach hugs the server folks :) [15:04] I hope so [15:05] * soren hugs dholbach [15:05] * ivoks turns to the dark side and hugs dholbach too :) [15:05] get a channel [15:05] the agenda for today is here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting [15:05] dantalizing: :) [15:05] [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting. [15:05] New Topic: Review ACTION points from previous meeting. [15:06] last meeting notes can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20071023 [15:06] more hugs for those of you who do reviews marked as 'canonical-server' on http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ [15:06] * dholbach is quiet now [15:06] zul: did you start a wiki page about your plan for xen ? [15:06] mathiaz: yes i havent updated it since Ive started it [15:07] zul: What's the name of it? [15:07] its a launchpad spec [15:07] gimme a sec.. [15:07] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/XenInHardy [15:08] * pschulz01 greets sommer [15:08] zul: did you register a spec in LP ? [15:08] thats the gist of it [15:08] mathiaz: yep [15:08] hey, all [15:08] zul: those xen releases patches for newer version of kernels? [15:08] s/those/does [15:08] zul: https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/xen-hardy gives me an error [15:09] argh...ill fix it after the meeting [15:09] ivoks: correct. [15:09] zul: ok - great ! [15:09] mathiaz: have we started? [15:09] dendrobates: yes [15:09] dendrobates: Yes :) [15:09] topic? [15:10] dendrobates: review last meeting points. [15:10] dendrobates: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20071023 [15:11] I haven't sent an email about tagging bugs for documentation to the ubuntu-doc team. [15:11] I had an action point, too. [15:12] I sent the e-mail to debian-devel about the default MTA stuff. [15:12] soren: ah says. So did you send your email ? [15:12] soren: what was the response ? [15:12] Despite my efforts to emphasize the process and work included, no-one responded to that bit, and everyone started talking about if exim or postfix should be the default one. [15:13] ...so the discussion has gotten nowhere at all :( [15:13] soren: has the thread finished ? [15:14] Wel... it's dead. [15:14] I can't find it in the ml archive right now. :/ [15:15] soren: may be you could send another email explaining that the default choice of the mta is a hot topic and that what you propose is a technical improvement to give choice the end user [15:15] soren: give choice to the end user or developer [15:16] I thought about that, but I can already imagine the response. :) [15:16] I'll try. [15:17] ACTION: soren will try to come up with a new email for debian-devel about the default MTA change. [15:17] "but we can't do this before we've all agreed which mta should be our default".. and then the same discussion will start again. [15:17] But I'm not bitter. [15:17] [ACTION] soren will try to come up with a new email for debian-devel about the default MTA change. [15:17] ACTION received: soren will try to come up with a new email for debian-devel about the default MTA change. [15:17] Moving right along.. [15:18] soren: may the force be with you... [15:18] I thought we agreed on postfix in a previous meeting. [15:18] dendrobates: *we* did. Debian didn't. [15:19] dendrobates: ...and we'd really like to have Debian agree on the same technical way to do this, so that we don't go in different directions. [15:19] perhaps slangasek can help point us to the correct people to get on board before we make another post to the ml. [15:19] any other toughts about the last meeting ? [15:19] dendrobates: Yeah, I could try talking to him. [15:20] mathiaz: no [15:20] no [15:21] ok. Let's move on then. [15:21] [TOPIC] JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy [15:21] New Topic: JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy [15:21] nealmcb added te next topic. [15:21] He does not seem to be with us. [15:22] Maybe we can move to the next topic and return to this one if he shows up? [15:22] I would like to table this discussion until he can join us. [15:22] snap [15:22] ok. Let's defer this discussion then. [15:22] [TOPIC] sudo bug discussion - dendrobates [15:22] New Topic: sudo bug discussion - dendrobates [15:23] There have been sporadic reports of the user added at install time not being in the admin group. [15:23] this causes sudo not to work for that user. [15:23] dendrobates: any examples? [15:23] dendrobates: Actually, one of the reports mentioned that it was the %admin ALL=(ALL) ALL line that was missing from sudoers.. [15:24] dendrobates: URL? [15:24] http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3712031 [15:24] LINK received: http://www.enterprisenetworkingplanet.com/netos/article.php/3712031 [15:24] dendrobates: is there a bug in LP ? [15:24] didn't I hear someone say it happened only when installing the mail-server task? [15:24] The reports have all been a little different, and I cannot reproduce it. [15:24] (I cannot remember where I heard/read that) [15:25] I've also heard about some thread in the forums [15:25] jdstrand: yes, that was one report, but it was not reproducable. [15:25] m... this article... i've read it [15:25] we really shouldn't base assumptions on it [15:25] I don't put too much stock in that particulat report. [15:26] but it has popped up too pften to be a coincidence IMO [15:26] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=590290 [15:26] LINK received: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=590290 [15:27] I would like everyone to try at least once this week to reproduce this. I have done 20+ installs with no luck. [15:27] dendrobates: I am curious if all of this has been in Vms? [15:27] VMs [15:27] dendrobates: may be we could try to centralize all the links that describe such a problem ? [15:28] mathiaz: good idea. [15:28] jdstrand: or maybe even with wubi or someting like that... [15:28] is there a bug we can leave comments on? [15:28] jdstrand: I have tried to reproduce it in VM and real HW. [15:28] dendrobates: is there a bug in LP about this ? [15:28] I did a server install yesterday and did not run into this issue. Had a separate issue, but it isn't part of this discusion [15:28] mathiaz: not yet. [15:28] ok. So I'll file a bug about this and assign to the server team then. [15:29] [ACTION] mathiaz will file a bug for the sudo bug to track all the links mentioning it. [15:29] ACTION received: mathiaz will file a bug for the sudo bug to track all the links mentioning it. [15:29] we can keep track of the various reports on the lp bug report. [15:31] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/user-setup/+bug/40684 perhaps they are using expert mode. [15:31] Launchpad bug 40684 in user-setup "expert install user not a sudoer if root password given" [Medium,Confirmed] [15:31] ah... expert mode [15:31] Yeah, I just stumbled upon that. [15:31] That is clearly intentional, though. [15:32] The code very clearly checks if a root password has been set, and if so, no sudo-capable user is added. [15:32] quite old though. Should be looked at though. I did not try an expert install. [15:32] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/sudo/+bug/162638 [15:32] Launchpad bug 162638 in sudo "sudo - first user not in sudoers file" [Undecided,New] [15:32] dendrobates: ill be trying a server install after the meeting so I can try to reproduce it [15:32] in the reported cases, no root password was set, allegedly [15:33] i'll try expert install today [15:33] soren: it seems that this is a bug where we should track the links. [15:33] dendrobates: I haven't looked at that passwrod checking code. maybe it is as simple as a 'blank' password (eg, a space or tab or something) [15:34] jdstrand: it shouldn't be possible to inadvertantly do that from the installer [15:34] dendrobates: we should ask for /etc/shadow entry for root [15:34] or at least whether it has a password in it [15:35] anyway, I just wanted everyone to be aware. [15:35] (as opposed to '*' or '!' [15:35] I've just subscribed ubuntu-server to bug 162638 [15:35] Launchpad bug 162638 in sudo "sudo - first user not in sudoers file" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/162638 [15:35] mathiaz: thanks. [15:36] I think it should be used to track all the information we found about this issue. [15:36] agreed [15:36] dendrobates: anything else about this issue ? [15:37] no [15:37] let's move on to the next topic then [15:37] [TOPIC] Hardy community projects - dendrobates [15:37] New Topic: Hardy community projects - dendrobates [15:38] we would like a volunteer to pick up a project for hardy. [15:38] We would like to add a ruby on rails stack. [15:39] This would consist of adding the necessary packages to main ,and creating a tasksel task [15:39] anyone knows anything about ruby? [15:40] this is perfect for someone going for core-dev. [15:40] not me [15:40] nope. [15:40] or someone that wants to learn ruby. [15:40] I've done some script type programming with Ruby... cool language [15:40] or someone that knows ruby [15:41] ahh - daylight savings - damn [15:41] When everyone volunteers at once, I can't hear you. [15:41] well [15:41] i could do everything needed on apache side [15:41] I'm not haven't really done much packaging, but can probably help [15:42] but i really don't know anything about gems and other ruby stuff [15:42] there was another ruby spec registered in LP. [15:42] s/I haven't/ [15:42] I would be willing to help but would need some direction [15:42] I can contact the person that registered the spec to see if he is interested in doing it. [15:43] a lot of direction [15:43] Pardon me, but it seems the question worth asking is "Does anyone here who knows anything about Ruby on Rails want to volunteer to head up a RoR project for Gutsy?" [15:43] akincer: s/gutsy/hardy/ [15:43] doh [15:43] No coffee today, what do you expect? [15:44] * coffeedude thought that was an implicit question anyways.... [15:44] well - the first thing is to figure out what is the current state of ror in ubuntu. [15:44] is there a link to the spec? [15:44] [sorry to get my clocks messed up and miss so much of the meeting. can someone shoot me a transcript somehow of the meeting so far?] [15:45] sommer: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/rubyonrails [15:45] nealmcb: the JeOS stuff was postponed til you got here [15:45] :-) [15:45] mathiaz: thx [15:46] the actual wiki page is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RubyOnRailsStack [15:46] mathiaz: all is free, nothing has been chossen like mongrel versus fast-cgi or something like that. This topic was discused at UDS? [15:46] lionel: a little bit - but there wasn't enough knowledge around the table. [15:47] this is actually a different spec. But we can use it. I assigned jdstrand to create the spec, but since this exists, we can use it. [15:47] Does anyone know who David Portwood is? [15:47] due to some nightmare in the past for me to install the RoR stack, I'm fine with helping on this topic :) [15:47] yea [15:47] lionel: well you could help with drafting the spec then. [15:48] lionel: which is just about figure out what's wrong with the current way of installing ror. [15:48] I'll try to contact David first. [15:49] someone's at the door.. brb. [15:49] mathiaz: more or less : nothing is packaged and all is fech with ruby packaging system :-( [15:49] lionel: david == dzportwood ? [15:49] but I agreee that's something that's necessary [15:50] We need the spec completed by thursday, which is not alot of time. [15:50] mathiaz: yes. to know if he want to help us to implement :) [15:50] dendrobates: well, there is nothing at tv tonight ;) [15:50] lionel: ok. So could you try to contact him ? [15:50] lionel: Ha, thanks. [15:51] yes, when the meeting is finished I send him a mail and I will digg in the spec [15:51] lionel: and since we may be short on time, could also add your thoughts to a discussion section on the wiki page ? [15:51] I have not a lot of experience with specs, I may require a bit help from you [15:51] mathiaz: sure, no problem [15:52] lionel: don't worry. I can be the approver of the spec. [15:52] [ACTION] lionel will contact david to write the ruby-on-rails spec. [15:52] ACTION received: lionel will contact david to write the ruby-on-rails spec. [15:52] ok, that is an action item, lionel will work on the spec, and sommer, ivoks, and dantalizing will all help with the implementation. [15:53] * soren is back [15:53] we should go back to JEOS now that nealmcb is here. [15:53] dendrobates: let's get the spec drafted and approved first. [15:54] ok. Let's get back to JEOS then. [15:54] true, but I want to capture who volunteered, so we don't have to ask again. [15:54] dendrobates: thanks [15:54] [TOPIC] JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy [15:54] [TOPIC] JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy [15:54] New Topic: JeOS support/documentation for gutsy, plans for hardy [15:54] did folks read my email on the topic? [15:55] any comments on that? should I go thru it? someone else want to lead this item? [15:55] It would be wonderful if you could lead it. [15:55] nealmcb: I've read your email. [15:55] I think documentation is a big part - lots of folks confused about what is out there [15:56] ...for gutsy. pretty easy to fix with a wiki page at help.ubuntu.com - right? [15:56] Heck, *I*'m confused sometimes! [15:57] nealmcb: yes. Your proposal to create https://help.ubuntu.com/community/JeOS makes sense. === georgy is now known as codingmaster [15:57] nealmcb: the question becomes what do we say about Jeos [15:57] a big question in my mind is whether we should somehow get the ubuntu-jeos-builder out there for gutsy somehow [15:57] nealmcb: I plan on renaming that, by the way. [15:57] since it is so much nicer than the iso [15:58] ...to remove a big part of the confusion in my head. [15:58] To ubuntu-vm-builder or something. [15:58] dendrobates: what are the options? [15:58] ..for what we say... [15:58] ...and when I'm done looking at virt-install I'll figure out if I'll roll them into one, or upload both of them. It'll only be a few days. [15:59] technically, I'm not sure we have much of a story at this point. [15:59] soren: right [15:59] I was also looking at rbuilder rpath.com last night - some very cool stuff there... [16:00] fwiw it can be used to quickly create virtual machines with specific packages installed. [16:00] dendrobates: my sense is that the momentum is now, and if we don't at least get the community involved in helping make jeos work well on ubuntu, they'll go elsewhere [16:00] ex: I want an ldap server using hardy. [16:01] nealmcb: ok. agreed [16:01] so a mailing list makes lots of sense, and more transparency from the folks working on it [16:01] there is a perception that canonical somehow is trying to make this a proprietary thing, which makes no sense to me [16:01] nealmcb: more transparency means having a roadmap [16:01] * soren has just reproduced the no-user-in-sudoers bug. [16:02] er... no. [16:02] never mind :) [16:02] * pschulz01 smiles at soren. [16:02] * nijaba guesses that he forgot to update his meeting time after DST change [16:02] nijaba: you and me too.... [16:02] OT, but DST needs to die [16:02] nijaba: the topic is jeos now [16:03] nealmcb: do you think a team is needed ? [16:03] well how far along is jeos? [16:03] mathiaz: you mean launchpad team? [16:03] probably [16:03] nealmcb: well - not necessarly an LP team. [16:03] but also mailing list for users and developers. I hate talking about this on the forums.... [16:04] nealmcb: if you want to have users joining the project, a team in the wiki makes more sense. [16:04] who wants to work on it? [16:04] zul: it exists, but there is no interesting technology, except the scritp that builds it. [16:04] dendrobates: Well.. no. [16:04] dendrobates: The script that builds the JeOS iso not exceptionally non-interesting. [16:05] er.. s/not/is/ [16:05] hm, I'm an hour late :) [16:05] soren: I disagree! [16:05] soren: at least it is technology. [16:05] The ubuntu-jeos-builder (which is sort of unrelated to JeOS, actually) is rather interesting, though. [16:05] soren: exceptionally non-uninteresting. [16:05] ahh - right [16:05] isn't that what I said? [16:05] though i'd like to see how the jeos iso is built..... [16:05] I think that the script to build iso is interesting. [16:06] * nealmcb nods [16:06] It can be used as a base to build virtual appliances. [16:06] but why an iso? why not a vm? [16:06] * nijaba nods as nealmcb [16:06] And I, for one, would like a plethora of documentation on how to use that [16:06] mathiaz: It's no different from any other cd building script, really. [16:06] to me it's just another output. [16:07] some user want to create an iso, others want to create a vm. [16:07] are any doc folks here? [16:07] Iwas asked to write an article on how to build an appliance based on JeOS [16:07] So I guess that will be a start for a doc [16:07] * sommer waves at nealmcb [16:07] :-) [16:07] mathiaz: If the vm builder should be part of this, we need a new name for it. A generic vm builder script does not match "Just enough OS" in any sane way, IMO. [16:08] mathiaz: I see the relation of the two things, though. [16:08] nijaba: I would be happy to review the article. [16:08] We could automate appliance building ala vmware vadk. [16:08] I agree a vm would be more useful than an iso [16:08] soren: though jeos is a catchy name now. but I see your point [16:08] nijaba: would you mind writing a wiki page for your articile ? [16:08] mathiaz: not at all [16:09] soren: I will need some help from you to get started. [16:09] so what about starting a document on help.u.c ? [16:09] for example most ISP would use a base VM rather than an ISO to install images for clients [16:09] Not everyone would find a vm more useful than an iso. Despite that being the trend, I can think of many uses of an iso as an appliance install [16:09] mathiaz: perfect [16:09] nijaba: Sure. [16:10] nijaba: do you already have a skeleton in mind ? [16:10] or have a switch that either builds an iso or a vm [16:10] having easy tips on how to dpkg-reconfigure after the vm comes up (or before?) would help [16:10] akincer: what use case are you thinking of ? [16:10] mathiaz: for a_z step by step install install of a given web app (which I have not picked) [16:10] it seems that we also need a way to capture all the other ideas of improvements [16:11] bugs.lp.net/ubuntu-jeos/+new ? [16:11] we are technically out of time. [16:11] nealmcb: Old machines that would do fine as a simple appliance like a DNS server [16:12] dendrobates: is there another meeting scheduled now ? [16:12] akincer: I though jeos explicitely meant vm in people's minds, and putting lots of hw support for old hardware in there would be a different focus [16:12] akincer: the problem is that the JeOS kernel is stripped of most drivers that you will need [16:12] does anyone have to leave now? [16:12] I don't think so, I was just stating the obvious. [16:12] wouldn't the point of having a builder be to add in things like drivers? Maybe I don't understand enough about JeOS [16:13] soren: is there a spec for jeos in hardy ? [16:13] mathiaz: Well... Depends on what you mean by "jeos". [16:13] See? [16:13] mathiaz: If it's for Ubuntu as a guest os, then yes. [16:13] I'm trying to figure out where we can keep track of the proposed improvements [16:13] Bugs on launchpad? [16:14] soren: ok. [16:14] but a roadmap in a wiki spec would be more helpful for many folks [16:14] https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/jeos-hardy is about Ubuntu as a guest os [16:14] I'll also add a section about it in the ServerTeam Roadmap. [16:14] mathiaz: I think that JeOS is and should stay as Ubuntu as a guest os, but need to increase the number of virtualization environments supported [16:14] There's currently no spec about the vm builder thing. [16:14] If I'm simply uninformed, ignore my assertion [16:15] akincer: if you're uninformed, we need to fix it. [16:15] akincer: You rarely care much about extra drivers in a vm, do you? [16:15] akincer: your point is good, but that would be an appliance builder vs a virtual appliance builder [16:15] we certainly could use both [16:16] soren: actually if i had a weird usb key drive then yes I would [16:16] soren: Right, but I was specifically talking about building an appliance for say an unused machine to be a DNS machine [16:16] zul: How weird? [16:16] akincer: that's out of the scope of JeOS. [16:16] soren: usb thumbscanner or something like that [16:16] akincer: Ah, I thought you still meant in a virtual machine, but on old hardware. [16:17] soren: or a wireless driver that the kernel doesnt support but there are drivers out there that does support it [16:17] Is there a link to the scope of JeOS? [16:17] akincer: not that know of. That's what we need to fix [16:17] wait, think I see it [16:17] zul: Wireless driver? In a VM? [16:17] soren: as an exmample [16:17] zul: I fail to see the use of that. [16:18] soren: people have done weirder things [16:18] so to get back on track, what can we do ? [16:18] document what we offer in gutsy [16:18] nijaba will write a short tutorial about using jeos to build a virtual appliances. [16:18] backport some vm builder to gutsy [16:19] build a community around it [16:19] and go for the gold in hardy [16:20] anyone interested in writing a simple wiki page that presents and explain what is JeOS ? [16:20] getting rid of unneeded app-level stuff seems like an important goal to me, and a hard one [16:20] or would this part of nijaba's tutorial ? [16:20] mathiaz: will be part of it [16:20] the jeos page should list various related pages, and include our working definition [16:20] in fact, I have already started this part internally [16:21] it looks like the bigest problem now is documentation. let's focus on this first. [16:21] I've put various hints on using the jeos builder on that forums page [16:21] preparing the eb page for u.c/server/jeos === iPage is now known as Shely [16:21] and put the ubuntu-jeos-builder in my ppa [16:21] but don't want to go to far without a plan.... [16:22] nealmcb: can you copy your hints on h.u.c/community/JeOS ? [16:22] absolutely - though I think they would be in a sub-page [16:22] Ok, let me just get this straigt: [16:22] and picking the vm builder script of choice is a top priority so I look forward to soren's thoughts on virt-install etc [16:22] does virt-install require x11? [16:23] no [16:23] I'm the only one who's annoyed that JeOS refers to two completely separate things? Ie. both Ubuntu as a guest os and the vm builder thingie? [16:23] and third a physical machine os [16:23] so let's have JeOS and JeOS-Builder [16:23] soren: nope. There is some confusion. [16:24] a jeos builder can also build simple vms right? [16:24] but a vm builder might not be very savvy about tight jeos images [16:24] mathiaz: Then can we please, please, please not put anything about the vm builder script onto h.u.c/whatever/JeOS/whatever ? [16:24] soren: JeOS is ubuntu as a virtual guest. [16:24] so what is wrong with using the hip jeos term? [16:24] soren: vm builder script is part of the virtualization spec. [16:24] If they are two entirely different things, I don't think having similar names is conducive to clarity [16:24] mathiaz: Not the virtualisation spec I wrote :) [16:25] mathiaz: I can be, but it isn't. [16:25] I'm just talking about the name of the tool. ubuntu-jeos-builder now (a bit long) [16:25] jeos-builder would be better perhaps [16:25] vm-builder! [16:25] * nijaba beeps -> trademark [16:25]