[00:02] <Seeker`> nalioth: We weren't But we made up :)
[00:05] <nalioth> :)
[00:07] <ajmitch> sigh, I really want to have a channel registered
[00:07] <ajmitch> but it's hard to actually get everyone kicked out so that *someone* can have ops :)
[00:08] <ajmitch> relatively unrelated to ubuntu, I just wanted to moan
[00:09] <PriceChild> ajmitch, what channel is it?
[00:09] <ajmitch> #nzzug
[00:09] <PriceChild> most definitely not related to ubuntu then :P
[00:09] <ajmitch> NZ zope/plone users group, so doesn't even require linux, let along ubuntu :)
[00:09] <ajmitch> s/along/alone/
[00:10] <ajmitch> hey now, I use plone on ubuntu, so it counts :)
[00:13] <PriceChild> LjL, messaging zim (matched on /who)
[00:14] <LjL> PriceChild: his bot seems to be running as root, for the record.
[00:14] <PriceChild> hehe yes
[00:14] <PriceChild> either that or he's just pretending to be l33t
[00:16] <stdin> can I get a factoid added:
[00:16] <Pici> NO
[00:16] <ubotu> In ubotu, stdin said: !no brokenkde4 is <reply> If you're trying to install KDE4 RC1 but getting errors about dependencies or files being overwritten, make sure you remove ALL of the KDE4 beta packages first. Try this in a !terminal « sudo apt-get --purge remove $(dpkg -l | egrep '(KDE 4|KDE PIM 4|-kde4)'|cut -d ' ' -f 3) kdebase-workspace kdebase-runtime »
[00:17] <stdin> it's an evil little hack, I know, I made it :p
[00:17] <jdong> stdin: bad bad boy :)
[00:17] <LjL> stdin: isn't that grep potentially a little dangerous?
[00:17] <stdin> but it's going to be a popular one
[00:17] <stdin> LjL: no, I tested it myself, only removed KDE4 packages
[00:18] <stdin> and all kde4 package do need to be removed before RC1 installs
[00:18] <jdong> stdin: have you tested that grep against all the description tags in Packages.gz of Gutsy main restricted universe multiverse?
[00:18] <jdong> stdin: it would be awful it if managed to match something else and purged some other package
[00:18] <LjL> !brokenkde4 is <reply> If you're trying to install KDE4 RC1 but getting errors about dependencies or files being overwritten, make sure you remove ALL of the KDE4 beta packages first. Try this in a !terminal: « sudo apt-get --purge remove $(dpkg -l | egrep '(KDE 4|KDE PIM 4|-kde4)' |cut -d ' ' -f 3) kdebase-workspace kdebase-runtime »
[00:18] <stdin> jdong: erm, well no, I do see your point
[00:19] <PriceChild> Hey pitoow, how can we help?
[00:19] <PriceChild> LjL, seems like zim doesn't wanna talk.
[00:19] <jdong> stdin: hopefully users have enough common sense to read apt's output before saying yes :D
[00:19] <pitoow> sorry
[00:19] <LjL> stdin: i'll add it but there's some regex problem with the bot and that factoid
[00:19] <stdin> jdong: but not many that apt-cache show have "KDE 4 " that aeren't KDE 4 packages
[00:19] <pitoow> portuguese only
[00:19] <stdin> LjL: yeah, I had to use !no to get it to forward
[00:19] <PriceChild> !pt | pitoow 
[00:19] <ubotu> pitoow: Por favor use #ubuntu-br ou #ubuntu-pt para ajuda em português. Obrigado.
[00:20] <LjL> stdin: added
[00:20] <stdin> jdong: in fact only okular and koffice2 would match that 
[00:21] <jdong> stdin: from an initial look I wouldn't expect it to match many erroneous packages :)
[00:21] <stdin> LjL: thanks, I can get on with building the rest of RC1
[00:21] <jdong> I'd guessl ike a 1 in 25,000 chance :)
[00:21] <stdin> jdong: well the users are using my PPA, and they'll get a svn konversation build anyway :p
[00:22] <jdong> :)
[00:23] <PriceChild> Uuuu zim speaks!
[00:23] <stdin> and a new version of qtcurve, and smplayer
[00:25] <PriceChild> LjL, ok to lift ban if he agrees it won't happen again?
[00:25] <LjL> PriceChild: yes
[00:27] <PriceChild> sorted
[00:42] <PriceChild> Is r2d2 serious?
[00:42] <PriceChild> Ok I call troll..
[00:43] <PriceChild> r2d2 is now known as donkeyofdarkness fyi
[00:45] <jdong> !test
[00:45] <ubotu> Failed.
[00:47] <PriceChild> bit laggy :/
[00:47] <stdin> !lag
[00:47] <ubotu> You have lag, I don't have lag
[00:47] <PriceChild> wow....
[00:47] <PriceChild> I got told.
[00:48] <jdong> lol
[00:49] <jdong> !lagger is What's a lagger but the mispelling a really good drink?
[00:49] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-ops, jdong said: !lagger is What's a lagger but the mispelling a really good drink?
[00:49] <jdong> (kidding) :D
[00:49] <jdong> of a.
[00:50] <jdong> grr maybe I've had one too many of those
[00:50] <Seeker`> jdong: Thats a bit of a typo for "cider"
[00:50] <jdong> I'm not the decider of.... *urgh* forget it too many puns for one day
[00:51] <PriceChild> wow.... jdong is all punned out?!
[00:51] <jdong> PriceChild: that'd be a first, no? :)
[00:51] <PriceChild> what is the world coming to
[00:51] <jdong> PriceChild: I just wrote like 3 pages worth of revised backports documentation, my typing fingers are tired
 i made a group called firefox then, sudo chown :firefox /usr/bin/firefox, but chown doesn't have any effect... why is this?
[00:52] <PriceChild> hmmm time for bed
[00:52] <jdong> wow. This guy is amazing.
[00:52] <PriceChild> jdong, who?
[00:53] <jdong> PriceChild: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=385981
[00:53] <jdong> PriceChild: the guy who wrote that thread and maintains the mentioned repo
[00:53] <PriceChild> good amazing?
[00:53] <jdong> PriceChild: not only has he agreed to put inthe disclaimer that his repo isn't officially supported without a single hassle
[00:54] <jdong> PriceChild: but he has also taken an initiative to write a wiki page to outline the impact of 3rd part software
[00:54] <jdong> it's rare to find people so cooperative these days :-/
[00:54] <PriceChild> pretty amazing
[00:54] <jdong> yeah.
[00:55] <jdong> it's definitely a good boost after the -devel-discuss getdeb megathread
[00:55] <PriceChild> I've spent the last hour in back and forth PMs (shut up) with two people over infractions and the jail
[00:56] <PriceChild> *wonders why he doesn't use ppas etc*
[00:57] <PriceChild> Grrr and they still haven't cleared my ppa :(
[00:57] <jdong> PriceChild: :(
[00:57] <PriceChild> i openned an answer question for it
[00:58] <PriceChild> they deleted the binaries from the latest build immediately
[00:58] <crdlb> probably because of the bad PR the PPA system got with that stupid compiz-core bug :)
[00:58] <PriceChild> then said it was on a cron and it wouldn't be cleared till 03:00 and many days later they still haven't replied to my answer or anything :/
[01:00] <jdong> PriceChild: why not go into #launchpad and poke?
[01:00] <PriceChild> tried a time or two iirc but no answer
[01:01] <PriceChild> Will try tomorrow during work hours utc
[01:06] <Hobbsee> crdlb: compiz core?
[01:06] <Hobbsee> hang on, let me read
[01:06] <crdlb> the problem with Amaranth's compiz PPA for feisty
[01:06] <crdlb> where compiz-core would never stop wanting to upgrade
[01:06] <PriceChild> ahh
[01:06] <Hobbsee> ohhhh.
[01:06] <Hobbsee> yes, they found that bug, and it was in the publishing section.
[01:07] <Hobbsee> it was only found recently though.
[01:07] <Hobbsee> i wonder if it got fixed
[01:07] <Hobbsee> ppa people are busy.  but they may well need a LP admin to do it.
[01:07]  * Hobbsee wonders if she coudl do it
[01:08] <Hobbsee> awn is in hardy now, too, i see
[01:09] <Hobbsee> oh, i see
[01:09] <Hobbsee> no, i cant.
[01:09] <Hobbsee> but why hasnt it nuked the package record, too?
[01:10] <jdong> Hobbsee: I saw the accepted mail
[01:10] <Hobbsee> of?
[01:11] <jdong> awn.
[01:11] <jdong> I think I built it too locally. But the memory's a blur.
[01:12] <Hobbsee> ah right
[03:10] <jdong> someone watch WhisperKiller in #ubuntu, they're providing instructions on manually installing fglrx and it looks like a freaking disaster
[03:11] <jdong> I'm in the middle of intense homework right now and dont' have time to explain this
[03:11] <jdong> but they're gonna get LRM mismatch and he's ending up with an unbootable X down this road
[03:32] <crdlb> thankfully fglrx will boot without the kernel module
[03:32] <crdlb> unlike nvidia's
[03:33] <crdlb> ... driver
[03:35] <jdong> crdlb: agreed
[03:35] <jdong> it's unfortunate nvidia could not implement a fallback in a similar way.
[03:36] <crdlb> supposedly fglrx can even work with the mesa libGL now
[03:36] <jdong> wouldn't be surprised
[03:36] <jdong> it' uses the DRI stack anyway
[03:41] <JanC> AFAIK fglrx uses mesa libGL in hardy  ?  ツ
[03:42] <crdlb> that's fantastic :)
[03:42] <crdlb> you have no idea how many times I've fixed peoples computers by having them remove fglrx
[03:43] <crdlb> because they installed it while using radeon (or intel sometimes O_o)
[03:43] <jdong> lol
[03:43] <jdong> everyone wants fglrx!
[03:43] <jdong> :D
[03:44] <JanC> I have seen a lot of problems from people installing fglrx/nvidia drivers that don't come with Ubuntu...   :-/
[03:44] <jdong> JanC: agreed
[03:45] <jdong> quite honestly I think a lot of that is Ubuntu's fault with our LRM system
[03:45] <JanC> you know "I saw this blog post fro ma guy that seemed to know what he was doing"
[03:45] <jdong> I've not seen any other distro with a persistently respawning kernel module system
[03:45] <crdlb> LRM is really fragile :(
[03:45] <jdong> apparently it's because of legal reasons or something
[03:45] <jdong> but I'm not convinced, there's GOT to be a better way
[03:46] <jdong> I don't blame users at all, even experienced users from other distros, for falling into this trap with manually installed video drovers
[03:46] <jdong> the idea that LRM will persistently override your kernel modules with its own versions sounds simply ludicrous to a non-Ubuntu user
[03:46] <JanC> actually, it's possible to have locally compiled modules in Ubuntu now, AFAIK
[03:47] <jdong> JanC: last I checked depmod's path thing places volatile before everything still.
[03:47] <jdong> JanC: you must blacklist the associated restricted driver in /etc/default/l-r-m-common
[03:47] <jdong> which is a ubuntu-ism.
[03:47] <jdong> no other distro comes close to this level of insanity
[03:48] <JanC> well, that's not too complicated either?
[03:48] <crdlb> it's extremely prone to bugs
[03:48] <jdong> JanC: no it's not *complicated*, but is it intuitive?
[03:48] <crdlb> for a while, "nv" failed to match nvidia_new
[03:49] <JanC> anyway, 99% of the people that I had to help after installing drivers themselves actually didn't need them...
[03:49] <jdong> JanC: there are definitely, however, cases where a manual install is the only solution
[03:49] <jdong> JanC: for example all AMD dual core users with nvidia mobo chipsets and nvidia cards who want to run compiz
[03:49] <crdlb> such as the gf8000's on feisty
[03:50] <jdong> all our nvidia.ko's softlock the kernel on SMP.
[03:50] <jdong> need the new beta driver
[03:50] <JanC> well, that sounds like a bug then?
[03:50] <jdong> but anyway that's a digression
[03:50] <jdong> JanC: it is a bug but not ever going to be fixed in a stable release
[03:50] <jdong> because we'll need nvidia-glx-new*er*
[03:50] <JanC> eh, why not?
[03:50] <jdong> JanC: each new release drops support for some older cards, causes various regressions, etc
[03:50] <crdlb> ubuntu likes to port changes back to older releases
[03:50] <jdong> cannot be QA'ed for a stable release
[03:51] <crdlb> and you can't do that with proprietary drivers :(
[03:51] <jdong> but anyway, back to my original point:
[03:51] <JanC> can't go into modules-backports even ?
[03:51] <crdlb> every nvidia release has a million regressions
[03:51] <jdong> NO other distro makes installing graphics drivers by hand so cumbersome.
[03:51] <jdong> it's only done by Ubuntu, and IMO unnecessary to be implemented in such an interruptive fashion
[03:52] <jdong> what's next? Will Ubuntu filter all unofficial binaries out of /usr/bin and require you to set a binary_whitelist variable in /etc/default?
[03:52] <JanC> well, every kernel upgrade that changes the kernel ABI would break your local-built driver anyway, right?
[03:53] <jdong> JanC: yeah but that's expected
[03:53] <jdong> JanC: what's not expected is when I reboot to the same kernel, UBuntu startup scripts dump its bundled nvidia drivers into the module load path and overrides the modules that worked last boot
[03:53] <crdlb> jdong: lol I actually wouldn't be surpised by that
[03:53] <JanC> jdong: "expected" by experienced users maybe...
[03:53] <jdong> crdlb: lol I was thinking that myself
[03:54] <jdong> JanC: well by expected I mean conforms to how all other distros will behave
[03:54] <Hobbsee> jdong: only the closed source ones, of course.
[03:54] <jdong> Hobbsee: right.
[03:54] <JanC> I don't care about "other distro's"  ;)
[03:54] <jdong> Hobbsee: but isn't linux-backports-modules guilty of this too? (nver looked)
[03:54] <jdong> and l-b-m could definitely contain FOSS modules
[03:55] <JanC> anyway, I can see a need for a way to make sure local modules keep working after system updates
[03:55] <Hobbsee> no idea
[03:56] <Hobbsee> i have a free driver :)
[03:56] <JanC> Hobbsee: so have I -- I assembled this system to be 100% free :-)
[03:57]  * crdlb has ath_hal :(
[03:58] <crdlb> sooo close :p
[03:58] <JanC> this http://www.supermicro.com/products/motherboard/Core2Duo/G33/C2SBA+II.cfm mobo is cool  ツ
[03:59] <JanC> crdlb: ath = atheros or what?
[03:59] <crdlb> yes
[04:00] <crdlb> it's open source except for the hal that talks to the hw itself
[04:00] <crdlb> they claim it's because the chips can go outside of FCC regulations so they can't open it
[04:01] <JanC> ah, that's what Intel claims about ipw3xxx too
[04:01] <jdong> crdlb: that's being resolved though
[04:01] <jdong> ath5k is going into the kernel
[04:01] <crdlb> oh nice :)
[04:01] <jdong> and I guess it's a moral concern I agree with
[04:01] <jdong> there's some sensitive communicatiosn equipment (the US military I know runs some) in the range that a wifi card hardware can broadcast on
[04:02] <JanC> jdong: it's a stupid thing
[04:02] <jdong> meh there needs to be some way of regulating it
[04:02] <jdong> just the unfortunate fact that software radios are defined in the drivers makes it a PITA for FOSS operating systems
[04:02] <JanC> it asks userspace for a location to regulate local policy
[04:03] <jdong> JanC: no I agree ipw3945d is utterly retarded, and that's why it's obsolete
[04:03] <jdong> or in the process of becoming such by next release
[04:03] <jdong> Intel has rewritten the driver because they don't feel ipw3945d is the right solution
[04:04] <jdong> the new iwl3945 driver only uses a binary firmware/microcode like almost every other card out there, and completely FOSS drivers with no regulator daemon
[04:04] <JanC> well, every attempt to regulate WiFi based on location (e.g. US vs. Europe) is flawed
[04:04] <jdong> JanC: I'd at least like it regulated to somewhere CLOSE to wifi frequencies, wouldn't you say?
[04:04] <JanC> it doesn't matter if that happens in a userspace daemon or in firmware
[04:05] <jdong> I'd rather not make it as easy as 3 lines of source code to make a generic 2-10GHz radio transmitter.
[04:05] <JanC> jdong: the main problem is that WiFi frequencies differ between countries
[04:05] <jdong> which I've heard from OpenBSD folks that Atheros lets you do
[04:06] <jdong> JanC: AFAIK they are all within designated spectrums though, 2.4+/-0.2Ghz, 5.8+/- similar range...
[04:06] <jdong> JanC: the most I've seen them deviate is another 100MHz above what the USA allows in 2.4's range
[04:06] <JanC> jdong: you know what's the funniest thing?
[04:07] <jdong> yes?
[04:07] <jdong> or no?
[04:07] <JanC> this frequency range is open for amateur radio  ;)
[04:07] <jdong> JanC: yes but you need one of them license thingies to operate one of those things
[04:07] <JanC> and they have licenses for much larger broadcasting power than wifi allows
[04:08] <jdong> I'd hope people with such licenses are more responsible with the technology
[04:08] <JanC> so 1 licensed amateur radio-operator can easily destroy every WiFi network around their home
[04:09] <jdong> I wouldn't doubt that
[04:09] <jdong> radio communications are fragile by nature
[04:10] <JanC> espacially if someone can transmit with 100x power or something like that  ;-)
[04:10] <jdong> the biggest threat is at least here in the USA interfering with radio communications carries bigger penalties than rape or running someone over with your car.
[04:10] <jdong> and that makes most people think twice before doign it
[04:11] <JanC> well, in Europe, AFIAK, those frequencies are considered "free" for radio amateurs...
[04:11] <jdong> interesting
[04:11] <JanC> not that they are used a lot though, and I never got any issues  ツ
[04:13] <JanC> well, it's what one radio amateur told me, so I didn't check that myself
[04:15] <JanC> anyway, back on-topic... there probably should be a standard, documented way for third-party (local or not) module-packages to override official modules
[04:16] <JanC> making this way documented will also make it easier to detect possible issues with it (e.g. a script could detect the existense of such modules)
[04:18] <Tm_T> hellp
[04:18] <Tm_T> hello even
[04:18] <Tm_T> good morning too
[04:18] <jdong> JanC: agreed -- LRM should have a heuristic that detects this situation (i.e. foreign module installed matching same name) and alert the user
[04:19] <jdong> then again, now I'm just waving magic wands and Hobbsee is gonna come in here and beat me with her long pointy stick any moment :D
[04:20]  * Hobbsee beats jdong
[04:20] <Hobbsee> now, what am i beating you over?
[04:20] <JanC> well, maybe there should just be pre-default module directory
[04:20] <jdong> Hobbsee: waving my magic wand over LRM :)
[04:20] <JanC> then any simple script could detect "duplicates"
[04:21] <jdong> JanC: or LRM should simply not be first in line
[04:21] <jdong> I don't know of a case where the LRM and regular module share the same name but LRM's provides more features
[04:21]  * jdong just heard the words "add proprietary value" in his mind reading that back, and wants to strangle himself
[04:22] <JanC> jdong: in the past there was a time when upstream fglrx just plain didn't work with Ubuntu  ;)
[04:22] <jdong> :)
[04:22] <jdong> JanC: history repeated itself on amd64 with latest release
[04:23] <JanC> and Ubuntu fglrx had _binary_ patches in Ubuntu to get it to work
[04:24] <jdong> yep
[04:24] <jdong> which of course are illegal but *cough* shhhhh
[04:24] <JanC> Canonical did have an e-mail from ATI that said "it's okay"
[04:24] <jdong> oh ok, that changes it then
[04:25] <Tm_T> permission to do illegalities?
[04:25] <Tm_T> neat
[04:25] <jdong> I know at the time I was warning people at the forums not to suggest things like that due to EULA violation
[04:26] <JanC> it was nasty at least
[04:27] <JanC> and only semi-official AFAIK
[04:29] <JanC> anyway, about kernel modules, I'm happy that now at least it's possible to "backport" modules without having to build a new kernel  ;)
[04:30] <JanC> it's something I proposed some time ago, and mdz made a blueprint from it  :-)
[04:30] <jdong> yeah that is nice
[04:39] <ubotu> Inverse called the ops in #ubuntu ()
[04:42] <Tm_T> !test
[04:42] <ubotu> Failed.
[04:43] <Tm_T> nixternal: mmmm
[04:43] <Tm_T> nixternal: you might like to keep an eye on #ubuntu
[04:43] <Tm_T> lots of offtopic going on
[04:46] <Tm_T> meh
[04:46] <crdlb> >_<
[05:45] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-motu, persia said: ubotu: sbuild is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SbuildLVMHowto
[05:46] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-motu, persia said: ubotu: sbuild is a system to easily build packages in a clean schroot environment.  To get started with SBuild, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SbuildLVMHowto
[05:52] <Hobbsee> ubotu: sbuild is a system to easily build packages in a clean schroot environment.  To get started with SBuild, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SbuildLVMHowto
[05:52] <ubotu> But sbuild already means something else!
[05:52] <Hobbsee> !sbuild
[05:52] <ubotu> sbuild is https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SbuildLVMHowto
[05:53] <Hobbsee> !no sbuild is a system to easily build packages in a clean schroot environment.  To get started with SBuild, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SbuildLVMHowto
[05:53] <ubotu> I'll remember that Hobbsee
[05:53] <Hobbsee> !sbuild
[05:53] <ubotu> sbuild is a system to easily build packages in a clean schroot environment.  To get started with SBuild, see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/SbuildLVMHowto
[05:57] <Tm_T> Hobbsee: thanks :)
[08:54] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-in, slytherin said: ubotu: what is medibuntu
[09:36] <persia> Could someone please push ubotu back into #ubuntu-motu?  We've had an accidental overflow
[09:40]  * elkbuntu wants to stab everyone who condones 'does anyone know anything about ubuntu and $other' questions
[09:40] <elkbuntu> nalioth, LjL ^^ see persia's request please
[09:41] <nalioth> elkbuntu: is ubotu here?
[09:41] <Jucato> heh ubotu's only in #kubuntu :)
[09:41] <nalioth> let it sync
[09:44] <gnomefreak> nalioth: \sh made ubotu flood out
[09:44] <gnomefreak> in motu
[09:45] <nalioth> ah, there it is
[09:45] <gary4gar> hello people!
[09:46] <gnomefreak> yeah hes back in motu as well
[09:46] <elkbuntu> nalioth, why does it seem that a 10 min sync is a little ... ridiculous
[09:46] <gnomefreak> hi gary4gar 
[09:46] <nalioth> elkbuntu: do you know how many channels the bot is in?
[09:46] <gary4gar> gnomefreak, :)
[09:46] <gnomefreak> ~18-20 afaik
[09:46] <ubot3> Factoid 18-20 afaik not found
[09:46] <elkbuntu> nalioth, it doesnt take *me* 10 mins to sync
[09:47] <nalioth> try over 60, gnomefreak 
[09:47] <nalioth> elkbuntu: but you're not contantly parsing _every_ line of text for !trigger words
[09:47] <gnomefreak> ok that too
[09:50] <gary4gar> gnomefreak, unmark yourself away :p
[09:50] <gnomefreak> sorry ive been trying to go to bed but its already 5am
[09:51] <nalioth> yeah, i've been staying up late, too
[09:51] <elkbuntu> nalioth, so you're saying that ubotu parses text for triggers *more* than an irc client checks text for commands, color coding, etc etc etc?
[09:52] <nalioth> elkbuntu: your irc client doesn't give a flip about anything but "elkbuntu" and the few other words you may have on highlight
[09:53] <nalioth> the bots have to parse each line for b u g numbers and !triggers and then they have to fetch them and spout them off
[09:54] <gary4gar> can i be unbaned from #ubuntu?
[09:54] <gary4gar> in other words can my ban be cleared?
[10:04] <gary4gar> elkbuntu, are you there?
[10:05] <gary4gar> Please clear my ban, i wanna use my own name rather than using some other name
[10:06] <nalioth> threatening to evade a ban isn't the best way to ask for it be removed
[10:09] <gary4gar> nalioth, now man i didn't threatened anyone
[10:10] <gary4gar> its just practical thing, that you can't restrict anyone on Internet 
[10:10] <gary4gar> but i am saying that Please Please remove my ban
[10:10] <gary4gar> so its a request not a threatening :S
[10:12] <nalioth> you'll have to wait on the one who banned you, gary4gar 
[10:13] <gary4gar> nalioth, frankly it was been long time so i don't remember you banned me
[10:13] <gary4gar> :)
[10:14] <nalioth> well, i'll help you out.  it wasn't me.
[10:14] <gary4gar> nalioth, aah thanks for telling that :P
[10:19] <elkbuntu> gary4gar, the discussion the other day when you were using the name gaurish, isnt so long ago, so dont even bother trying that
[10:21] <gary4gar> elkbuntu, i have a weak memory but i vaguely remember that it was on 13th nov, and you said ban can be after a week
[10:22] <elkbuntu> gary4gar, you should vaguely remember that I, and the person who banned you, LjL, said that you need to wait for LjL to decide when your ban will be listed and that it would be *at least* a week
[10:23] <gary4gar> elkbuntu, ok leave it, i don't want to argue but surely i will come back later :P
[10:43] <Tm_T> mmm
[10:45] <Tm_T> meh meh
[10:47]  * jussio1 hugs Tm_T
[10:47] <Tm_T> I hope that was only a friendly hug
[10:52] <jussio1> Tm_T: totta kai
[10:52] <Tm_T> :))
[10:52] <Tm_T> yay!
[12:54] <Mez> was sixsigma just kicked from any ubuntu channels?
[12:54] <Mez> @btlogin
[12:55] <Pici> Mez: did you get that message too? 
[12:55] <Mez> yeah
[12:55] <Mez> just wondering where it came from
[12:55] <Tm_T> um?
[12:55] <Mez> he doesnt seem to be in any channel I'm in atm
[12:55] <Tm_T> like to share?
[12:56] <Pici> --- Log opened Wed Nov 21 07:45:56 2007
[12:56] <Pici> 07:45 >>>> Irssi: Starting query in freenode with sixsigma
[12:56] <Pici> 07:45 <sixsigma> Free! Best Six Sigma Project Tutorial Just for you - Visit http://www.sixsigma123.net/
[12:56] <Pici> --- Log closed Wed Nov 21 07:50:08 2007
 Free! Best Six Sigma Project Tutorial Just for you - Visit http://www.sixsigma123.net/
[12:56] <Tm_T> erm
[12:56] <Tm_T> lovely
[12:56] <Mez> ah, #ubuntu isn't +s
[12:56] <Mez> so probs a name call
[12:56] <Mez> nalioth/etc, wanna do anything bout him
[13:42] <Pici> Dave2, just saw you active in #freenode, can you scroll up here and take a look at this sixsigma fellow.
[13:46] <Dave2> Pici, he's been noticed, thanks. (Thought he'd been dealt with already, but obviously not - I shall poke people again. Thanks for reminding me.)
[13:46] <Pici> Dave2: Thanks :)
[13:55] <livingdaylight> hi guys!
[13:55] <livingdaylight> can someone test me and take me out of quarantine?
[13:58] <livingdaylight> hello?
[13:58] <livingdaylight> is there an op here?
[13:59] <pleia2> livingdaylight: I can't help, but please hang around until someone who can shows up :)
[14:00] <livingdaylight> pleia2: sanx
[14:03] <livingdaylight> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/FixDCCExploit no pointers here for Opera-irc users, but i think i found it in preferences under Tools/Accounts
[14:11] <Pici> livingdaylight: been tested yet?
[14:13] <livingdaylight> Pici: nope
[14:13] <Pici> Well, you look to be good.
[14:13] <Pici> Hold on
[14:14] <Pici> livingdaylight: unbanned, have fun.
[14:16] <livingdaylight> Pici: gracias amigo
[14:16] <livingdaylight> remember: we are because we all are! (or something like that)
[14:16] <livingdaylight> hehe ...
[15:12] <LjL> Pici: i think at the end of the day he deserves it... but i'm not sure how exactly you ended up banning him :P
[15:13] <Pici> LjL: somehow I accidentally typed /ab d<tab> 
[15:14] <Pici> instead of /lastlog
[15:14] <LjL> Pici, given the million monkeys writing shakespeare etc...  you're a bunch of chimps with broken typewriters :P
[15:15] <Pici> I'll take that as a compliment
[15:18] <LjL> Pici, north america is certainly not a country, but it's almost one when talking about telephone numbering, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_Numbering_Plan
[15:20] <Pici> LjL: He asked "whats the country code for north america"
[15:20] <LjL> Pici: well, in a way, the correct answer is "1". if for "north america" one considers the group of countries that are in the "north american" numbering plan
[15:21] <LjL> that excludes mexico to begin with
[15:23] <LjL> that "1" ("+1" if you prefer) is called a country code, even though it can dial out to more than one single country
[15:23] <Pici> I always think of country codes as the two letter country designations, but then again I rarely/never call outside the country.
[15:25] <LjL> Pici, but the two letter designations have nothing to do with phones. country codes *in telephony* are things starting with "+", where the meaning of "+" really depends on what country you're in (in italy it's 00 for instance, i believe it's 011 in north america), that allow you to dial out to other countries
[15:26] <LjL> so to call italy from the US, you'd do 011 39, since +39 is italy's country code
[15:26] <LjL> to call from italy to the US, i'd do 00 1, since +1 is "north america's" country code
[15:26] <LjL> not a country, but +1 is still a "country code" in telephony speak
[15:32] <elkbuntu> australia came in 61st place with that numbering
[15:33] <elkbuntu> we got ripped off :(
[15:33] <LjL> to be exact, even the +39 "country code" doesn't really refer to one country
[15:33] <LjL> it dials out to italy *and* to the vatican :)
[15:33] <LjL> and i'd have though to San Marino too, but wikipedia doesn't say that
[15:34] <LjL> elkbuntu: but it's not really the "61st place", they go by zones. +6x is southern asia and oceania according to wp
[15:34] <LjL> +3x is europe (and so is +4x)
[15:35] <elkbuntu> LjL, i know... it's just fun to say that
[15:35] <LjL> wp also lists the various areas in the NANP as separate "country codes", but that's cheating really. the country code is +1.
[15:35] <LjL> the three digits that follow are really a local area code
[15:35] <LjL> no matter the country
[15:36] <Pici> WaltzingAlong: How can we help you?
[15:36] <Tm_T> +358 is Finland <3
[15:36] <LjL> elkbuntu: you could say that you came in the first place, given you're "1" in your geographical area which is "6" :)
[15:36] <elkbuntu> yay!!!!
[15:36] <LjL> Tm_T, try to understand... nobody calls finland :P
[15:36] <elkbuntu> who got 69? :Þ
[15:36] <Tm_T> LjL: I do
[15:36] <WaltzingAlong> Pici: greetings. here to propose that the ubotu reply to the kubuntu !compiz also points to the compiz wiki at http://wiki.compiz-fusion.org/  since questions like 'how do i get the cube' are answered there
[15:37] <LjL> elkbuntu: +69 800 o4o
[15:37] <elkbuntu> lol
[15:37] <LjL> !compiz
[15:37] <ubotu> Compiz (compositing window manager) and XGL (X server architecture layered on top of OpenGL) - Howto at http://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager - help in #compiz-fusion
[15:37] <LjL> !compiz-#kubuntu
[15:37] <ubotu> Kubuntu is not shipping with compiz installed or enabled by default. You can still install it and have your eyecandy goodness. The instructions are at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/CompositeManager/CompizFusion - further help in #compiz-fusion
[15:38] <Pici> WaltzingAlong: You dont think that the channel is enough?
[15:38] <LjL> WaltzingAlong, the stuff in the factoids should really only refer to what's officially supported... under Kubuntu, nothing is really officially supported, so it's a bit embarrassing to decide... but, if anything (if it's not a hack), it should be added to the wiki
[15:39] <LjL> and yeah, if one wants to do fancier things, they should ask in the right channel instead
[15:39] <LjL> WaltzingAlong: anyway, remember that you can just PM ubotu and say "something is blah", we'll see the proposed entry
[15:39] <WaltzingAlong> sure it is enough to point people to the compiz fusion channel. and first reply there is to check the wiki
[15:40] <WaltzingAlong> LjL: ok thanks for the info
[15:41] <LjL> WaltzingAlong: i think it would be best if you put wiki.compiz-fusion.org at the end of the help.ubuntu.com wiki page, in a "Further reading" or "External links" section (not sure what the standard for calling sections like that is on the ubuntu wiki, to be honest)
[15:41] <LjL> (could ask in #ubuntu-doc)
[15:42] <WaltzingAlong> ok. it was in response to kubuntu users seeing the videos with the cube, expecting compiz to be the cube, then asking how to get the cube working.
[15:43] <LjL> WaltzingAlong: well the correct thing to say is that compiz is *not* the cube, but a window manager that uses the composite extension of X in order to handle window management using 3D hardware acceleration, while in addition providing (by means of plugins) various "special effects" that can be installed and enabled, with further help in #compiz-fusion
[15:44] <WaltzingAlong> LjL: ok so ubotu could have a !cube-#kubuntu reply with just that? :D
[15:47] <LjL> !composite is <reply> Compiz-Fusion (and the older Compiz and Beryl) are window managers that employ the "composite" extension of X to draw windows using graphics cards' 3D hardware. They can additionally provide "desktop special effects" (such as the "cube") by means of plug-ins. Join #compiz-fusion for help and support with advanced features.
[15:47] <ubotu> I'll remember that, LjL
[15:47] <LjL> !cube is <alias> composite
[15:47] <LjL> WaltzingAlong: ^
[15:47] <WaltzingAlong> LjL: thanks
[15:48] <LjL> long factoid to be used sparingly especially in #ubuntu ... PMs ftw
[15:48] <Pici> indeed.
[15:48] <WaltzingAlong> will do
[15:50] <LjL> added also "See also « /msg ubotu compiz » and « /msg ubotu effects »". didn't add the opposite (i.e. a link to !composite from !effects and !compiz) on purpose.
[16:16] <Tm_T> isaz: hi, how can we help you?
[16:17] <jussi01> Tm_T: hahahahah
[16:17] <jussi01> obviously not much
[16:21] <Tm_T> okie, off ->
[18:03] <OldPink> Can I request being unbanned from #ubuntu-offtopic?
[18:03] <OldPink> I was banned for repeating ubotu's "Kylie Minogue pitied Mr. T and now she has cancer" joke
[18:03] <OldPink> And laughing at it
[18:04] <OldPink> If it wasn't put there, I wouldn't laugh. You put it there to be funny. 
[18:05] <Mez> @btlogin
[18:05] <ubotu> An error has occurred and has been logged.
[18:07] <Mez> @btlogin
[18:11] <Mez> You'll have to wait for seveas to return for that, but with your ban evasion, and a few other things, I'd dooubt it
[18:11] <OldPink> That wasn't ban evasion
[18:12] <OldPink> I didn't know of ubuntu-ops, and used /msg to contact Seveas many times, but he failed to respond
[18:12] <OldPink> Hence, I was forced to get back on. I didn't evade, I called myself the same nick, it was clearly me, just to tell Seveas to check his PMs
[18:13] <OldPink> I then went in #ubuntu and asked how to contend an offtopic ban, and people told me of ubuntu-ops
[18:13] <OldPink> When banned, you should be notified of ubuntu-ops, who banned you, where to contact them, and how long the ban will last, surely
[18:16] <PriceChild> ubotu, btlogin
[18:16] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about btlogin - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[18:17] <Pici> tracker is up forme.
[18:18] <PriceChild> Pici, it is... just me being silly
[18:20] <OldPink> Damn Seveas. Banned me for repeating a ubotu @t joke. That's just lame.
[18:20] <Pici> I'm pretty sure that was just icing on the cake.
[18:21] <OldPink> It's not even icing though. If ubotu can say it, we should be able to say it
[18:22] <PriceChild> OldPink, I notice you were banned/muted the day before though...
[18:22] <OldPink> Was I?
[18:22] <Pici> I think the timestamps are bit weird on that issue.
[18:23] <OldPink> I mean, I don't even know how long it lasts! If it was a day or so, maybe fair enough, but come on.
[18:25] <Pici> Bans do not auto-expire
[18:26] <OldPink> So it's when Seveas just happens to remember?! 
[18:27] <ubotu> In ubotu, WaltzingAlong said: reinstalling is not really the answer
[18:27] <Pici> !bot > WaltzingAlong
[18:27] <PriceChild> OldPink, lets just be patient and wait for him to return please.
[18:29] <mneptok> reinstalling really is the answer. dude ... wait ... what was the question?
[18:30] <Pici> WaltzingAlong: can we help you? again?
[18:31] <WaltzingAlong> Pici: i just received the message from you "[19:27] <Ubotwo> Pici wants you to know: I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots" ; this was in response to the earlier issue about the cube and compiz
[18:31] <Pici> WaltzingAlong: Thats because:  <ubotu> In ubotu, WaltzingAlong said: reinstalling is not really the answer
[18:31] <WaltzingAlong> Pici: ah ok. that went into the wrong window. thanks
[18:32] <Pici> WaltzingAlong: sure thing
[18:37] <stdin> hmm, how come Ubotwo sent that and not ubotu
[18:37] <Pici> He probably got both
[18:38] <PriceChild> stdin, ubotwo is muted in here... but still hears commands
[18:38] <PriceChild> and tries to react
[18:38] <PriceChild> best we address ubotu with his name rather than ! where possible i guess
[18:38] <stdin> when using > yeah
[18:58] <ompaul> ubotwo you hate this :)
[18:58] <OldPink> I'll be right back :) 
[18:58]  * ompaul cringes
[19:36] <OldPink> Still no sign of seveas?
[19:37] <OldPink> He hasn't used op powers for 3d 6h 57m 32s   
[19:39] <ubotu> Angeltronix called the ops in #ubuntu-ni ()
[19:40] <OldPink> There are only like 6 people in there though?
[19:46] <OldPink> Please unban me from #ubuntu-offtopic? 
[19:59] <PriceChild> OldPink, @t isn't availiable from -offtopic is it?
[19:59] <OldPink> Yes?
[19:59] <OldPink> Until then, then it was disabled
[19:59] <OldPink> I don't know if it's been re-abled
[19:59] <OldPink> I think it was disabled everywhere though
[20:00] <Pici> PriceChild: Seveas had turned it on for a little bit, then turned it off.
[20:00] <PriceChild> Pici, ahhh
[20:00] <Pici> PriceChild: Can we help you?
[20:00] <Pici> er
[20:00] <profanephobia> how can i hide my ip address?
[20:00] <PriceChild> !register | profanephobia 
[20:00] <Pici> I thought I fixed that tab complete before pressing enter...
[20:00] <ubotu> profanephobia: By default, only registered users can send private messages - Information about  registering your Freenode nick can be found at http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#userregistration
[20:01] <ubotu> joerlend called the ops in #ubuntu-no ()
[20:01] <profanephobia> PriceChild, im registered pricey
[20:01] <PriceChild> profanephobia, follow that (linked nick and email) then ask for an unafillitated cloak in #freenode
[20:01] <profanephobia> oh
[20:01] <profanephobia> ok
[20:02] <profanephobia> PriceChild, btw assassins creed is amazing
[20:02] <PriceChild> I've only heard bad things.;
[20:02] <PriceChild> OldPink, Im' feeling generous, gimme a little to look over the logs fully.
[20:02] <PriceChild> have only glanced over til now
[20:05] <OldPink> PriceChild: Thanks
[20:08] <PriceChild> Ok cool I think I've got a reasonable idea of everything that happenned.
[20:09] <PriceChild> OldPink, #ubuntu-offtopic is a channel for idle chatter. However it still has guidelines.
[20:09] <PriceChild> Nickspam, botabuse etc. are still "not good".
[20:09] <PriceChild> Ban evasion is still not good.
[20:10] <PriceChild> !guidelines
[20:10] <ubotu> The people here are volunteers, your attitude should reflect that. Answers are not always available. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[20:10] <PriceChild> Please read that OldPink ^ then say when done.
[20:10] <OldPink> Sure
[20:13] <OldPink> PriceChild: Done
[20:13] <PriceChild> That was very quick.
[20:13] <OldPink> You know that thing about /away is wrong
[20:14] <PriceChild> Pardon?
[20:14] <OldPink> I just tried it. Being away doesn't stop the message being sent to the channel
[20:14] <OldPink> Nor alert you that the user is away
[20:14] <OldPink> At least on my client? The only way I can see if someone is away is by doing /whois
[20:15] <OldPink> Whereas on the link you sent me it says: "when someone uses your name they are told you are away and the channel is not disturbed."
[20:15] <PriceChild> open a query with me, then direct a message to me, either in this channel or in pm
[20:15] <PriceChild> (i am /away)
[20:15] <OldPink> I'll do both...
[20:15] <OldPink> PriceChild: Hello
[20:16] <PriceChild> you should get a little message saying I am away?
[20:16] <OldPink> Ah, there was an auto message on the /msg one. I'd never encountered that, sorry. 
[20:16] <OldPink> Just tried it on myself and nothing happened, must've just needed two people 
[20:17] <OldPink> On the one starting with "PriceChild:" nothing happened, though
[20:17] <PriceChild> So there we go.
[20:18] <OldPink> Sorry :) Did read it though. 
[20:19] <PriceChild> Ok so to sum up... nickspam, botabuse, "colourful" (with a 'u' jdong) language and telling other users to "shut up" is not acceptable?
[20:20] <OldPink> Yes :) 
[20:20] <PriceChild> If you are muted, you should assume it a temporary measure to get you to calm down. If he wanted you out the channel for good, he would have removed and banned you.
[20:21] <PriceChild> OldPink, seen as it has been a week, I have removed the ban. Please abide by the guidelines your have read at all times whilst in Ubuntu channels.
[20:22] <OldPink> PriceChild: Thank you :) 
[20:24] <PriceChild> OldPink, anything else we can help you with here?
[20:25] <OldPink> No thanks :) 
[22:59] <FloodBot1> Synced to #ubuntu, 1196 users present
[23:03] <FloodBot2> Synced to #ubuntu, 1200 users present
[23:03] <FloodBot3> Synced to #ubuntu, 1199 users present
[23:06] <nixternal> wth is this all about?
[23:06] <crdlb> LjL's new toy :)
[23:06] <nixternal> heh, floodbot is doing exactly what it name says :)
[23:07] <LjL> yeah. they have a problem with +v i suspect
[23:07]  * Mez slaps floodbot
[23:07] <LjL> let see if it does it again in... 5 seconds
[23:07] <LjL> yes
[23:08] <LjL> nalioth: kill the bot, i have no idea why but it's thinking the other bots are being kept opped
[23:08] <Mez> LjL, you playing?
[23:09] <LjL> Mez, nixternal, these bots should end up opped in #ubuntu eventually, so they have to be trialled and monitored here for a while
[23:09] <Mez> they set quite a high limit ;)
[23:09] <nixternal> what is the purpose of them? prevent ctcp floods or all types of floods?
[23:10] <Mez> join floods
[23:10] <LjL> Mez, yes, initially they set a very high limit (users+30 currently), it's a safety measure
[23:10] <nalioth> nixternal: are you familiar with 'debhelper' in #debian ?
[23:10] <ompaul> when they has skillz we will see them 
[23:10] <ompaul> :)
[23:10] <nixternal> nalioth: yes
[23:10] <LjL> Mez: well, also ctcp floods actually
[23:10] <nalioth> nixternal: same thing
[23:10] <LjL> and they can also auto-banforwards exploit victims
[23:10] <Mez> 1209 = 47 + 30?
[23:10] <LjL> Mez, nope, they *are* in #ubuntu and using the amount of users from there
[23:10] <ompaul> Mez, look at #ubuntu 
[23:10] <LjL> they're just changing the limit in here instead of doing it in there
[23:10] <nixternal> nalioth: so floodbot will help me create packages :p
[23:10] <Mez> ah... lol - kk
[23:11]  * ompaul desks heads
[23:11]  * ompaul makes mez collide with a desk
[23:11] <nalioth> we've been trialing them in a private channel for a while, and now we'll watch them here (and polish them some more)
[23:11]  * Mez headdesks wall
[23:11] <ompaul> sore head party
[23:11] <nalioth> nixternal: whatever the bot in #debian is that monitors the channel levels
[23:11]  * Mez dances
[23:11] <nixternal> oh
[23:11] <Mez> I'm hungry
[23:11] <nixternal> derr, OK
[23:11]  * Mez goes and grabs a tin of tuna
[23:11] <nixternal> heh, I was thinking of dh_* :)
[23:24] <FloodBot1> Synced to #ubuntu, 1175 users present
[23:25] <Seeker`> is it the same type of bot as ubotu?
[23:25] <LjL> Seeker`: no, it's no type of bot, it's custom code
[23:26] <Seeker`> ooh, scary
[23:27] <LjL> it's based on metabot... but then again metabot is custom code
[23:28] <LjL> ok, now that they've finished joining (and hopefully last time's bug is fixed), only one will stay opped, and then it'll start to set a limit. initially, it will change it every minute, so causing a little more spam again
[23:28] <Seeker`> am I allowed to ask why there are 3 of them?
[23:28] <LjL> after it's settled, it will only change the limit when the situation in #ubuntu actually warrants it
[23:29] <LjL> Seeker`: backup. we don't want a dangling limit to be left on, and we want to ensure the limit is removed ASAP on netsplits
[23:29] <nalioth> Seeker`: backup bots
[23:29] <LjL> nalioth: your bot never gets +o :P
[23:29] <nalioth> Seeker`: programmed to jump in the captains seat if the seat goes empty
[23:34] <Seeker`> what is the logic behind x+30? are the floods usually that bad?
[23:34] <LjL> Seeker`: they can be much worse than that... but anyway, the limit is not x+30, it's x+11
[23:35] <LjL> Seeker`: they *initially* set it at +30, when they join, just in case they're coming back from a dead server or such things
[23:35] <Seeker`> ah, ok
[23:36] <nalioth> Seeker`: these bots have been designed to not bother normal users in the least
[23:38] <LjL> which they hopefully achieve, but in case they don't, that's why they're provisionally here so that y'all can check that they're doing their job correctly :)
[23:38] <Seeker`> how do they determine when "the situation in #ubuntu actually warrents it"?
[23:39] <LjL> Seeker`: if there are more than 4 users than at the previous checks, or there are less than 7 users, then the limit is changed. otherwise it's left alone.
[23:40] <PriceChild> *7 users less
[23:40] <LjL> yeah that
[23:41] <LjL> i'm tempted to say "more than 4 users joined" and "more than 7 users parted", but that's not accurate
[23:42] <Seeker`> so there is a limit of 11 people / minute joining if noone parts
[23:42] <LjL> [00:41:46] --> xargon has joined this channel (n=faggot@cpe-065-188-037-042.sc.res.rr.com).
[23:42] <LjL> joined #gentoo as well
[23:43] <LjL> Seeker`: yes. i have gathered some statistics, and that's got almost 0% probability of happening
[23:43] <LjL> actually, there's about 0% probability that more than 7 new users join
[23:43] <LjL> (in one minute)
[23:44] <LjL> "join" always meaning that nobody parts, or n_joins - n_parts if you prefer
[23:46] <Seeker`> hmm
[23:46] <Seeker`> does that mean that you could end up with a slow drop in users, leaving the limit much higher than the number of users?
[23:46] <Seeker`> i.e. net change of -3 every minute
[23:47] <nalioth> Seeker`: no, the channel is monitored and adjusted
[23:47] <LjL> Seeker`: nope, because after more than 7 have left since the last time the limit was adjusted, the limit is changed
[23:47] <LjL> if more than 7 users part *every minute*, then the limit could stay much higher
[23:47] <LjL> but that just won't happen
[23:47] <LjL> unless everybody switches to Gentoo in a day or two :P
[23:47] <Seeker`> heh
[23:48] <LjL> at most, the limit will be x+18, unless the bots are in "safe" mode (like when they join, x+30)
[23:48] <nalioth> Seeker`: and don't worry, it is only set to ban you from #ubuntu on days that end in 'y'
[23:48]  * nalioth runs
[23:48] <LjL> :>
[23:49] <Seeker`> nalioth doesn't like me :(
[23:50] <LjL> now for instance, i'm not entirely sure why it changed from 1173 to 1167
[23:51] <nalioth> Seeker`: nah, i don't like anybody
[23:52] <LjL> ah yes it actually did it right.
[23:53] <Seeker`> LjL: so do you have a nice graph of how many popele there are in #ubuntu over the course of the day?
[23:54] <LjL> Seeker`: no, i have a graph that says how likely it is that the amount of users changes by N over the course of one minute
[23:57] <Seeker`> hmm
[23:57] <LjL> information about the total number of users isn't logged by most clients
[23:57] <LjL> but i don't even really need it
[23:58] <PriceChild> LjL, btw.... if we manually deop the opped one... will they mind? What happens?
[23:58] <LjL> PriceChild: they won't care, and they'll stay all deopped
[23:58] <PriceChild> ok cool
[23:58] <nalioth> PriceChild: you'll just lose their functionality
[23:59] <LjL> of course they'll reop if they feel the need to set -l
[23:59] <PriceChild> Was just wondering whether they'd do the whole fight for ops thing... but if they don't then good :)
[23:59] <LjL> PriceChild: they'll fight for ops when they go into emergency/safe mode
[23:59] <LjL> actually, one minute after going there
[23:59] <LjL> little demonstration...
[23:59] <LjL> debuglag
[23:59] <FloodBot1> Artificially lagging by 88 seconds due to debug command