[00:06] <kwwii> Cimi: coming soon, I promise...even then, it is just ideas and we can bounce ideas back and forth to make the most of things
[00:07] <Cimi> kwwii, could also be that I completely dislike the design so it's better to stop it now then after 6 hours of work :D
[00:08] <troy_s> Cimi: Have you added anything to the Murrine engine?
[00:09] <Cimi> mmm yes
[00:09] <darkmatter> *burps loudly*
[00:09] <Cimi> [cimi@hydra murrine]$ wc -l patch.diff
[00:09] <Cimi> 3682 patch.diff
[00:09] <troy_s> hbons: The empty space window is interesting.  +1 on the folder comment from kwwii -- that look is not nearly as decent as the 3/4 front that OSX had (I think they have foobared visual appeal in the sake of functionality with Leopard's new folder icons)
[00:10] <Cimi> mmm
[00:10] <Cimi> just 3682 lines of patches :D
[00:10] <troy_s> hbons: I wonder what it would look like if you mocked up a metacity to match the empty window look.  You should try it.
[00:11] <troy_s> hbons: I'd give you a plus one on the innovation though.  It is certainly an interesting take.  I wonder how it would work in practice (scrollbars would probably need to be outline of scroller and outline of buttons floating in space edge, etc.)
[00:12] <troy_s> Cimi: Any particulars as to what you have added in?
[00:12] <darkmatter> Cimi: only 3682 limes.. pfft. ;)
[00:13] <darkmatter> *lines
[00:13] <Cimi> :)
[00:14] <troy_s> Cimi: ?
[00:15] <hbons> troy_s thanks for te tips, i'll take that in mind:)
[00:15] <troy_s> hbons: Not really 'tips' per se... I am quite interested to see what a floating interface might look like.
[00:15] <troy_s> hbons: It really is quite innovative...
[00:16] <Cimi> troy_s, nothing special that you may like (i.e. no option to remove the border)
[00:16] <troy_s> Cimi: I am just curious in general.
[00:16] <Cimi> troy_s, remember the idea to control the gradients trough the gtkrc?
[00:16] <troy_s> Cimi: In what respect?
[00:17] <troy_s> Cimi: Intensity
[00:17] <troy_s> ?
[00:17] <hbons> troy_s: but what do you mean by "floating"?
[00:17] <Cimi> shades of the color
[00:17] <Cimi> so
[00:17] <Cimi> enlight
[00:17] <Cimi> or endark
[00:17] <Cimi> (erm, the english term)
[00:17] <darkmatter> hbons: I realize its just a very basic mockup, but I'd say with something that "clean" (and following troy_s suggestion +1) try doing a mockup without buttons on the scrollbars as well.. :)
[00:18] <Cimi> darkmatter, current murrine has an option to remove scrollbar steppers
[00:18] <Cimi> but it's ugly and vista-ish
[00:18] <darkmatter> Cimi: nice
[00:18] <Cimi> but it's ugly and vista-ish
[00:18] <Cimi> :D
[00:19] <darkmatter> lol. depends on how its done
[00:19] <hbons> darkmatter: but there are no scrollbars? (sorry i don't quite get it :D)
[00:19] <troy_s> Cimi: Ugly is a relative term.  I don't see the Vista.
[00:19] <darkmatter> hbons: just some in-brain visualizing :)
[00:20] <troy_s> Cimi: For some, borders are dead ugly :)
[00:20] <troy_s> Cimi: Forwarded by some fellow hiding behind the 'usability' clause without considering that, as always, usability rests bound to the unstated particular user.
[00:22] <darkmatter> troy_s: since the industry has situational software we should add situational usability and situational design to the list too :)
[00:23] <troy_s> darkmatter: Well I would at least say that it is about time that _everyone_ realize and accept the fact that it is a relative world.
[00:23] <darkmatter> troy_s: agreed
[00:23] <troy_s> darkmatter: Those broad sweeping laws and 'truths' are pure paper thin cutouts of foolish propositions.
[00:24] <TheSheep> "all generalisations are false"
[00:25] <troy_s> TheSheep: LOL.  That's terrific!
[00:26] <TheSheep> yeah, Gödel thought that too
[00:27] <TheSheep> in your face, Hilbert!
[00:28] <kwwii> Cimi: yepp, might be
[00:28] <kwwii> man, I missed out on a lot...my system kinda died for a bit
[00:28] <Cimi> kwwii, very well
[00:28] <kwwii> firefox seems to slow things down quite a bit
[00:28] <darkmatter> troy_s: aye. I'm working on a project (doing mockups at the moment) for what is basically a studio environment because I have a particular need, as well as many usability enhancements that would work wonders for me and for others who agree with "my way of doing things". not because "I'm right" but because I have a similar work methodology/design sensibility that I share with others.
[00:30] <darkmatter> completely situational. my situation is "a", my solution is "b" as opposed to the whole alphabet soup methodology that is the "norm"
[00:33] <Cimi> [cimi@hydra murrine]$ wc -l patch.diff
[00:33] <Cimi> 3767 patch.diff
[00:33] <Cimi> great :D
[00:35] <Cimi> kwwii, I will sleep in front of the pc :D
[00:35] <Cimi> please email!
[00:39] <kwwii> :-)
[00:41] <Cimi> ronf ronf
[00:41] <Cimi> Zzzz
[00:45] <kwwii> I could send you something now, but it is far from finished and you would only make opinions based on unfinished work
[00:50] <Cimi> ok
[00:50] <Cimi> let's make them
[00:56] <darkmatter> troy_s: put on some shades and give a big "HELL YEAH!" for usability http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Satellites?content=70225
[00:56] <darkmatter> *has an aneurysm*
[00:57] <Cimi> I hope someone will ban this user
[00:58] <darkmatter> "I guess my laptop is not rendering the colors like it should... or I have a serious problem with my eyes/judgement... lol" <-- I'd say the later deserves a BINGO
[00:59] <_MMA_> lol.
[00:59]  * _MMA_ grabs that for the new Ubuntu Studio theme.
[01:00] <darkmatter> Cimi: now doesn't that make you wish you never released murrine to the public? ;)
[01:00] <darkmatter> _MMA_: you would too. bastard :)
[01:00] <hbons> that... color... it's... killing... me...
[01:00] <Cimi> I won't release murrine 0.60 :D
[01:00] <_MMA_> Yep. Just to drive people nuts.
[01:00] <darkmatter> lol
[01:01] <Cimi> http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre1/70233-1.jpg
[01:01] <_MMA_> Ouch. I have a pink theme for the wife but damn thats too much.
[01:02] <darkmatter> lol
[01:02] <darkmatter> at least use complemwntary shades and colours.. gawd
[01:02] <darkmatter> *complementary
[01:03] <Cimi> probably he is blind
[01:03] <darkmatter> 'scuse me while I repeatedly vote bad/refresh page/ vote bad :)
[01:04] <_MMA_> lol
[01:05] <darkmatter> and that my dear friend is why I voted against adding the colurs panel to the theme preferences ;)
[01:05] <darkmatter> *colours
[01:05] <Cimi> very bad Idea :D
[01:06] <Cimi> oh no
[01:06] <Cimi> I was referring to some bugreport I got in gnome bugzilla
[01:06] <Cimi> someone asked to add a panel with +20 colors :D
[01:07] <darkmatter> O.O
[01:10] <Cimi> and another one from ubuntu mailing list
[01:10] <Cimi> xl_cheese
[01:10] <Cimi> asked more than 10 colors too :D
[01:10] <darkmatter> haha
[01:10] <Cimi> I immediatly have closed the bug :D
[01:13] <hbons> http://www.gnome-look.org/content/show.php/Gutsy+Default?content=66683
[01:13] <hbons> heh
[01:14] <Cimi> hbons, http://www.gnome-look.org/CONTENT/content-pre2/67957-2.jpg
[01:14] <Cimi> by xlcheese
[01:15] <hbons> ouch
[01:18] <darkmatter> meh. is putting users out of my misery considered antisocial?
[01:18] <kwwii> two funny things, at SUSE I worked with a guy who had a pink and green theme (but was a death metal freak) turns out he was color-blind...and then I met robert collins at canonical who has a totally blue theme which just scares me, turns out he is also color blind (and therefor sees blue tones differently than most of us)
[01:18] <Cimi> jimmac is blind
[01:18] <Cimi> *color blind
[01:19] <darkmatter> kwwii: very true. but that still doesn't mean I cant loathe and despise and poke fun at the themes :D
[01:20] <kwwii> darkmatter: nope, not at all :-)
[01:21] <kwwii> I knew my roommate at suse for years before I knew that he was colorblind
[01:21] <kwwii> afterwards I wondered why in the hell I asked him about what he thinks looked best
[01:22] <darkmatter> LOL.
[01:26] <darkmatter> kwwii:one does not even need to be colourblind. we all perceive colour in our own way
[01:27] <kwwii> darkmatter: to an extent, yes
[01:28] <darkmatter> I for example dont see white. be it real world or at the pc. for me white is a hodge podge of almost pastel colors. almost hypnotic. it does go white occasionally. but its more like a disco ball effect
[01:29] <darkmatter> not joking either
[01:29] <darkmatter> which is why I have an aversion to white when I theme. I'll do "whitish" but I'll avoid white like a plague
 two funny things, at SUSE I worked with a guy who had a pink and green theme (but was a death metal freak) turns out he was color-blind...and then I met robert collins at canonical who has a totally blue theme which just scares me, turns out he is also color blind (and therefor sees blue tones differently than most of us)
[01:33] <troy_s> kwwii: Two of Tango's team are color blind ;)
[01:33] <troy_s> kwwii: Coincidence?
[01:34] <Cimi> troy_s, palette are useful to whis
[01:34] <kwwii> troy_s: explains the palette to me
[01:34] <troy_s> kwwii: LOL
[01:34] <kwwii> sorry, not trying to be a dick
[01:34] <darkmatter> troy_s:  http://tangogotowned.org?
[01:34] <darkmatter> :P
[01:34] <kwwii> honestly, I did not know that
[01:35] <troy_s> kwwii: To be fair, the palettes in foss are weak in general.  They tend to fall on either side of the 'monochromatic/polychromatic' divide.
[01:35] <troy_s> kwwii: I know for certain Lapo is.  I believe jimmac is as well.
[01:36] <troy_s> kwwii: Also forgot to mention
[01:36] <Cimi> yes
[01:36] <troy_s> kwwii: There _is_ an interactive perspective tool in Inkscape, albeit hidden.
[01:36] <Cimi> lapo and jimmac are both color blins
[01:36] <Cimi> *d
[01:37] <kwwii> troy_s: where?
[01:38] <troy_s> kwwii: It is the beginning of the mesh warp set.
[01:38] <troy_s> kwwii: IIRC under the "Filters" you can find an implementation of it.
[01:38] <troy_s> kwwii: You basically take a path (again, MUST be a path)
[01:38] <troy_s> kwwii: and form a perspective shape (four points)
[01:38] <troy_s> kwwii: Select the two and apply.
[01:38] <troy_s> kwwii: I'll quickly do up two screenshots to show it... hold on.
[01:39] <kwwii> cool, love to see it
[01:39] <kwwii> last night I offered 100 Euros for anyone who could implement offset/inset properly to any inkscape dev
[01:40] <kwwii> they told me that it is coming once they use cairo
[01:40] <kwwii> or suc
[01:40] <kwwii> h
[01:40] <troy_s> kwwii: Don't knock the inset offset
[01:40] <troy_s> kwwii: You can do some pretty amazing things with the linked one.
[01:41] <troy_s> kwwii: I put a tutorial up on my blog about it...
[01:41] <troy_s> it is amazingly dynamic
[01:41] <troy_s> kwwii: The dynamic is by far the most useful in terms of visuals, but the Linked is mind numbing.
[01:41] <troy_s> kwwii: what bothers you about it?
[01:41] <kwwii> troy_s: the problem for me is doing just a 1px offset/inset for a path
[01:42] <kwwii> it messes up things most of the time
[01:42] <kwwii> for complex paths it seems to work well though
[01:42] <kwwii> funky, that
[01:42] <troy_s> kwwii: Hrm... well there are some bugs with fonts etc... if you know the unsaid rules it is pretty reliable.
[01:42] <kwwii> take a square, make it a path and then offset if a couple of pixels
[01:43] <troy_s> kwwii: I know it will 'pop' certain letters if you aren't careful.
[01:43] <troy_s> http://imagebin.ca/view/AnUi5F5.html
[01:44] <troy_s> kwwii: Hrm... square to path seems fine here.  Odd.
[01:44] <kwwii> troy_s: good point, never thought about doing it that way
[01:46] <troy_s> kwwii: Anyways, that is the work towards mesh deforms.  It works fine using the interactive too, but you still need to apply the 'rules'.
[01:46] <troy_s> kwwii: The first vertex is considered the lower left iirc.
[01:47] <kwwii> hrm, I'll have to play with that
[01:47] <kwwii> thanks
[01:48] <troy_s> kwwii: Yeah, the only thing to remember is that 1) it _must_ be a path and 2) vertex creation sequence matters (first vertex of the four is lower left) 3) selection order -- first select your to-be-warped object and then select the perspective deformation shape.
[01:48] <kwwii> the selection order stuff has messed me up in the past with other things
[01:50] <kwwii> time for sleep here
[01:51] <kwwii> troy_s: I thought you might like this: http://sinecera.de/tweaked.jpg
[01:54] <kwwii> night, /me gone
[07:24] <spedsta> test
[07:25] <_MMA_> 1, 2, 3
[07:27] <spedsta> sorry, first time irc user, wanted to test it, cause nothing much happening
[07:27] <_MMA_> np
[07:27] <spedsta> are there many designers involved?
[07:28] <_MMA_> kwwii would be the guy to talk with.
[07:28] <spedsta> im a designer, so would love to get involved, especially with a possibility of some of my work getting into a release
[07:28] <spedsta> thanks
[07:29] <spedsta> how to get hold of him, here ?
[07:29] <_MMA_> yes
[07:29] <_MMA_> Do you see a list of people in the channel?
[07:29] <spedsta> ok he is  on right now then?
[07:32] <spedsta> yes i do
[07:32] <spedsta> on the right, kwii is on top..
[07:32] <spedsta> with a green icon next to his name
[07:33] <_MMA_> He's in Germany so he should be around soon.
[07:33] <_MMA_> And since its 2:30am where Im at Im gone. ;)
[07:33]  * _MMA_ ZzZzz...
[07:34] <spedsta> ok, i see, thanks alot,
[09:59] <martino> Hi
[09:59] <martino> I'm Martino (Minimal perception creator)
[10:01] <martino> _MMA_ ??
[11:13] <lukeen> erm Cimi: you sure about the new active tab under clearlooks?
[11:14] <andreasn> the old/new :)
[11:15] <lukeen> haha yes. well i installed xp on virtual box recently and noticed, the tabs also look like that...
[11:21] <andreasn> yes, it gives you a visual hint what tab is the active one
[11:22] <andreasn> it was in clearlook 0.5, can't really remember when it was first added. http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.5_1.png
[11:23] <lukeen> yeah i know, but i dont feel like its the right choice. i think we could think about something different.
[11:25] <andreasn> http://www.gnome.org/start/2.12/notes/en/rnusers.html - hm, appears it was used in 2.12 already, perhaps it always had those
[11:26] <andreasn> AH! simple didn't, right. http://www.gnome.org/start/2.10/notes/rnwhatsnew.html
[11:26] <andreasn> see http://www.gnome.org/start/2.10/notes/figures/figure-keyboard-properties+layout.png
[11:26] <lapo> hi
[11:26] <andreasn> not the right choice? Is it a bad interface? what's the drawbacks of having it?
[11:27] <lukeen> i just mean we could make it better and more original. i didnt want to say that its ugly or something
[11:28] <andreasn> http://www.maximumpcguides.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/12/1vista_taskbar_properties.PNG
[11:28] <andreasn> seems vista is going for the approach to make the non-selected tabs darker
[11:28] <andreasn> and osx obviosly have the buttons-thingy
[11:29] <lapo> speaking about the bik...ehm gtk theme? :-)
[11:29] <andreasn> http://developer.apple.com/documentation/AppleScript/Reference/StudioReference/art/image_tab_mainmenu_nib.gif
[11:30] <andreasn> I would say color helps, but I'm don't really have a strong opinion about the tab looks really
[11:33] <andreasn> the funny things about gtk-themes is that whatever you change, you're actively fucking with the looks of every application out there
[11:33] <andreasn> application/application developer
[11:33] <andreasn> :)
[11:33] <lukeen> :) thats true
[11:34] <lapo> andreasn: what are you rockin on?
[11:35] <andreasn> currently a travel expense bill :)
[11:35] <lapo> eheh
[11:35] <lapo> not very productive from an ubuntu user pov :-)
[11:35] <andreasn> apart from that some maemo stuff and firefox3
[11:36] <lapo> hos is the ff3 effort going?
[11:36] <lapo> I hope to have some time to help you out during the we
[11:37] <andreasn> pretty good, michael have a bunch of patches to make stuff look more "normal" and they seem happy to accept most of them
[11:37] <lapo> sounds cool
[11:38] <lapo> nice
[11:38] <andreasn> and mike, the moz dude is very straight forward and helpful
[11:38] <lapo> yay!
[11:39] <lapo> cool, I wasn't sure about how important this effort was going to be for the moz guys
[11:39] <lapo> looks like I was wrong, nice
[13:41] <Cimi> andreasn, I like the new active gummy tabs
[14:00] <karma-ferit> andreasn: in gnome, in the appearance preferences, Interface tab you have a setting for showing text under icons, is there any chance of firefox respecting this setting in the future?
[14:00] <karma-ferit> currently it does icons only as its setting
[14:00] <andreasn> karma-ferit: probably worth filing a bug about, a lot of gnome apps don't follow that either :)
[14:01] <karma-ferit> i've noticed a few gnome apps have there own way of doing the same thing
[14:01] <karma-ferit> some use the global settings some use there own
[14:01] <andreasn> and you should _totally_ file bugs against those bastards, those are really clearly bugs :)
[14:02] <andreasn> but yeah, I guess it would be pretty easy to do in firefox as well
[14:06] <karma-ferit> because with firefox 2 i use this gnome-theme look alike then set it to look like this http://img225.imageshack.us/my.php?image=screenshotup4.png
[14:06] <karma-ferit> just like nautilus
[14:09] <kwwii> isn't the "home" a bit confusing as in nautilus it really is your home whereas there it is probably a web page
[14:10] <karma-ferit> well i didn't make the theme :)
[14:10] <karma-ferit> i just use it because it ties in nicely with gnomes theme
[14:11] <andreasn> kwwii: well, I guess we always did it like this, can't remember what the early internet explorer did, but I know netscape always used a house
[14:11] <karma-ferit> also theres some nice hacker-fu and the tabs look shaded and normal compared to the firefox 2's default ones
[14:12] <andreasn> kwwii: I don't think it's that confusing, but we had a similar bug against evolution calendar where "home" was the same thing as "go to today"
[14:12] <kwwii> andreasn: yeah, I realize that it has been like that for a long time, just wondering if there is not something better
[14:13] <hbons> andreasn: should you really compare to evolution? i mean, i have to hit "Get mail" to send my mail:)
[14:13] <andreasn> hbons: haha, yeah
[14:14] <karma-ferit> i always thought of the home page as more of a start thing, something you look at quickly before doing your browsing
[14:14] <andreasn> karma-ferit: did you ever check out firefox journal?
[14:15] <karma-ferit> can't say i have
[14:15] <andreasn> it kind of rocks
[14:15] <andreasn> http://online-desktop.org/wiki/Firefox_Journal
[14:15] <andreasn> you need firefox3 though
[14:17] <karma-ferit> got FF3 :)
[14:18] <andreasn> http://online-desktop.org/wiki/Firefox_Journal_XPI
[14:19] <andreasn> kwwii: I would say both take you to your home/start place, but yeah, it's a interesting issue
[14:20] <karma-ferit> so when is the next lot of icons for FF3 hitting the nightlies?
[14:21] <andreasn> you have to ask montreal about that, but I think he have a patch with a whole batch of them
[14:22] <karma-ferit> sweet :)
[14:32] <Cimi> andreasn, what are your opinions on new clearlooks tabs?
[15:10] <kwwii> hrm, anyone know how to bump up the date of the next meeting in the wiki?
[15:11] <Cimi> andreasn, ?
[15:12] <andreasn> Cimi: I'm not sure I saw the latest version, screenshot?
[15:12] <Cimi> http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5971/screenshot1hz1.png
[15:13] <lapo> Cimi: which font are you using?
[15:13] <lapo> that looks neat
[15:13] <andreasn> ah, these are a bit Thicker than the ones in the old clearlooks, right?
[15:13] <nothlit> kwwii: done
[15:13] <andreasn> http://clearlooks.sourceforge.net/screenshots/clearlooks-0.5_1.png
[15:14] <Cimi> andreasn, yes
[15:14] <Cimi> as they have a little gradient
[15:14] <Cimi> which will be invisible with a thinner stripe
[15:14] <Cimi> lapo, dejavu condensed
[15:14] <Cimi> with hinting low
[15:15] <karma-ferit> clearlooks is was made me fall in love with gnome, that and the default icon set back in 2.4 covered all the apps really well
[15:15] <kwwii> nothlit: how did you change the bit at the top of the Artwork page?
[15:15] <lapo> looks nice, w/o any patches?
[15:15] <kwwii> nothlit: thanks, btw :-)
[15:16] <Cimi> lapo, lcd patches
[15:16] <Cimi> btw with low hinting is almost similar
[15:17] <andreasn> Cimi: seems like removing the line at the bottom makes it feel less like a separate object and more like a part of the tab.
[15:17] <andreasn> Cimi: http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/clearlooks-tab.png
[15:17] <kwwii> nothlit: ahhh, now I see how it is done
[15:17] <Cimi> andreasn, I don't like without the bottom line
[15:18] <Cimi> it will lose the gradient and the contrast of the whole theme
[15:20] <andreasn> well, I don't think the contrast issue is that bad, I mean, you totally want to have contrast between say a selected and unselected menu item, or a button and it's background, but the stripe is part of the tag and not a separate object
[15:20] <andreasn> but it's your theme, so I'm fine either way I guess
[15:22] <Cimi> it looks 3D-ish with my approach, so as all the theme is 3d-ish I prefer it
[15:23] <Cimi> if for you there's no difference (you like both) I'm fine with it
[15:23] <darkmatter> it looks ok both ways. but saying that removing the line will upset the contrast of the theme is  a *slight* exageration ;)
[15:24] <Cimi> darkmatter, did you see both screenshots?
[15:24] <darkmatter> Cimi: yup
[15:24] <Cimi> without that line it simply looks "out of place"
[15:25] <darkmatter> its your theme, do what you will, besides, what do I know? I'm just an artist :P *shrugs*
[15:26] <Cimi> darkmatter, I think me too ;)
[15:27] <andreasn> I guess the line gives it a more bulky, heavy feel to it while the one without gives a more lightweight look so I guess it depends on what you aim for
[15:27] <darkmatter> meh.I need to sell some more paintings
[15:27] <Cimi> heavy
[15:27] <andreasn> http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/graphics/xpscreencaptures/languagetab.gif <- the xp tab for comparison
[15:27] <Cimi> the whole theme has 3d-ish and things like it
[15:28] <Cimi> ops ugly! :)
[15:28] <Cimi> why they are so bad in style -.-
[15:28] <darkmatter> Cimi: lol. indeed. but like I said, either works. depends on personal taste. my opinion is indifferent. and its your vision, so you "rule the roost"
[15:28] <Cimi> btw it's more similar to xp without the line
[15:29] <Cimi> darkmatter, which do you like more?
[15:29] <andreasn> as long as it works well in all applications I'm fine with it
[15:30] <darkmatter> Cimi: lol. neither. both. one or the other ;)
[15:31] <Cimi> ok
[15:31] <darkmatter> apathy ftw :P
[15:34] <Mandarancid> Hi
[15:34] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: Hi.
[15:34] <Mandarancid> I'm interested to help the ubuntu studio artwork
[15:35] <_MMA_> kwwii: Mandarancid is the "minimal-perception" icon creator.
[15:35] <Mandarancid> yes
[15:36] <Cimi> ciao Mandarancid
[15:38] <Mandarancid> ciao
[15:38] <Mandarancid> sei italiano??
[15:38] <Cimi> andreasn, any other ideas on the tabs?
[15:38] <Cimi> si
[15:39] <andreasn> Cimi: not really, no
[15:39] <Cimi> andreasn, last thouhgts: final decisions pro/against new look?
[15:40] <andreasn> on the tabs?
[15:40] <Cimi> yup
[15:41] <_MMA_> ahh damn. I posted in the wrong channel. :)
[15:41] <_MMA_> _MMA_: Mandarancid: I have a direction set out but since Im working alone I dont know if I can get it done. I was looking around Gnome-look ad saw your set.
[15:41] <andreasn> +1 one for the more flat look that I mocked up I guess (there is a really funny line in the Royal Tendenbauns "Hey, it's just one mans opinion")
[15:41] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: I showed kwwii and he liked it. He still has to talk with some others but maybe we can work together.
[15:42] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: We could have your set as a mainline and a branches for Ubuntu and Ubuntu Studio. Its a thought.
[15:42] <Cimi> andreasn, abd between mines and old 2.20?
 I guess the line gives it a more bulky, heavy feel to it while the one without gives a more lightweight look so I guess it depends on what you aim for
[15:42] <troy_s> +1
[15:42] <Mandarancid> Very good.. the true problem is the english.. I've some problem of translation
[15:42] <Mandarancid> but with the dictionart
[15:42] <Mandarancid> *y
[15:42] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: Cimi's is a little better. Maybe he can help. :)
[15:43] <andreasn> Cimi: hm, yours I think
[15:43] <Mandarancid> Cimi is the creator of the murrine engines??
[15:43] <darkmatter> troy_s: and you said *I* suffer from OCD ;)
[15:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: Well that line has always stuck out to me as being completely goofy.  I see where it came from now.  Good thing theme designers are following the lead of XP.  lol.
[15:44] <darkmatter> hehehe
[15:44] <darkmatter> troy_s: I actually agree with you there
[15:45] <troy_s> darkmatter: I honestly thought that piece of uglyness was a true 'innovation' on this side, but again, its mimicry.
[15:45] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: Are you working on icons for power options? Logout/Shutdown/Reboot and such?
[15:45] <Mandarancid> yes i made the power option but i have some problem with the name
[15:45] <Mandarancid> i must rename it
[15:45] <Cimi> Mandarancid, murrine and clearlooks for gnome 2.20
[15:46] <darkmatter> troy_s: that and the shift in the whole tango styled gnome icon theme getting re-maced
[15:46] <darkmatter> re-mac'd
[15:46] <darkmatter> *
[15:46] <Mandarancid> Cimi: The clarlooks for gnome 2.20 is fantastic (per non parlare di murrine)
[15:46] <Cimi> grazie =)
[15:46] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: I recommend you use the Tango naming spec. It looks like you're using the Gnome one.
[15:47] <Mandarancid> _MMA_ where i can find it??
[15:47] <Cimi> fdo
[15:47] <andreasn> troy_s: you mean the same way that the tax authorities in different countries keep copying the looks of each others tax forms?
[15:47] <andreasn> :)
[15:48] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: You can grab a Tango set installed on your system and use that. Ill also get you a link.
[15:48] <darkmatter> troy_s: tango's always been. well.... tango (almost an insult in of itself), but it really went overboard when they did the whole "restyled osx icons"
[15:49] <andreasn> darkmatter: what was that?
[15:49] <Mandarancid> oh it's true...
[15:49] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: http://tango.freedesktop.org/Standard_Icon_Naming_Specification I personally like grabbing a installed set. That way I can see how the simlinks work.
[15:49] <andreasn> darkmatter: who did that?
[15:50] <darkmatter> andreasn: meh. just ranting about all the osx icon metaphors that snuck into the gnome-icon-theme
[15:50] <andreasn> darkmatter: what ones+
[15:50] <andreasn> ?
[15:51] <andreasn> darkmatter: as it might have been my fault
[15:52] <darkmatter> andreasn: well. I'd have to look over the gallery again (which I really dont WANT to) to remember them all, but an easy example (one of the first I had noticed during the dev cycle before the 2.20 release) is the binoculars
[15:53] <andreasn> darkmatter: ah yes that one. Yeah, so the deal was that we had both zoom and search
[15:53] <andreasn> darkmatter: and both used a magnifying glass, while being completely different actions
[15:53] <kwwii> andreasn: we use the same ones in oxygen now as well - until someone suggests something better I am not sure what else to use
[15:53] <darkmatter> there are more. and its not a complaint per se. I just dont like copycatting anyone else (person preference being what it is)
[15:54] <darkmatter> different strokes for different folks and all that jazz
[15:54] <_MMA_> kwwii: How do we want to handle proposed icon sets? You have ideas to show Mark already?
[15:55] <Cimi> andreasn,  http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/6305/clearlookstabwb6.png ?
[15:56] <andreasn> darkmatter: so we should stop using the folder metaphor for example? as Xerox Star used that? I tend to aim towards what makes sense as a pictogram rather than trying to come up with something that people won't get.
[15:57] <andreasn> Cimi: looks sweet
[15:57] <Cimi> andreasn, thinner tabs with a small line below
[15:58] <andreasn> yeah, looks very good. Are you happy with it as well?
[15:58] <darkmatter> andreasn: that's not quite what I meant, but if you must bring up folders. the metaphor is actually inaccurate ;)
[15:58] <Cimi> not as mine but they're not so flat
[15:58] <andreasn> darkmatter: oh?
[16:00] <Cimi> mmm
[16:00] <Cimi> andreasn, they look imho too thin compared to the dimensions of buttons etc etc
[16:02] <kwwii> _MMA_: nothing together yet, we should get together a list of interesting ideas and I'll put them in the presentation
[16:03] <darkmatter> andreasn: its just "what people are used to". the way we organize data in general, (not just applicable to computers, but to the real world as well) with differences in personally style of course, is as "collections" (more or less). of course what icon metaphor would best fit that is anyones best guess
[16:03] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: Can you join the Ubuntu-artwork mailing list?
[16:04] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: Also, do you mind if I post your set as a proposal or would you like to?
[16:04] <andreasn> darkmatter: like Piles or Stacks?
[16:04] <darkmatter> andreasn: or if you want the anal approach: computers dont have folders, (go ahead, crack open a HDD and find one, I dare you :P), so the folder analogy is a illogical :D
[16:04] <darkmatter> andreasn: hmmm.. perhaps
[16:06]  * kwwii cooks dinner
[16:07] <Mandarancid> _MMA_Yes
[16:08] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: I asked 2 questions. "Yes" to which one? :P
[16:08] <andreasn> darkmatter: hm, yeah. Did you check out the OLPC journal? They take a more time/activity based approach to things. Anyway I guess the discussion drifted off... I'm sorry if my graphics made you upset
[16:08] <Mandarancid> _MMA_: To every two
[16:08] <darkmatter> andreasn: it kibda like this, you have magazines on your coffee table, books on your bookshelf, cd's in your cd rack, files at the office in filing cabinets (and thus the popular office metaphors in the PC world), so if you wanted a "one for all" generic approach, you'ld basically need to find a common metaphor for those :P
[16:08] <darkmatter> andreasn: didnt say they upset me :)
[16:09] <darkmatter> *kinda
[16:09]  * andreasn hugs darkmatter
[16:09] <darkmatter> lol
[16:09] <darkmatter> quit hugging me! I'm allergic!
[16:10] <andreasn> :D
[16:10] <Mandarancid> _MMA_ I'm raname the power icons but nothing to do
[16:10] <Mandarancid> ..
[16:10] <andreasn> oh, btw, did you ever get that nautilus patch with the borders in the sidebar in?
[16:15] <Mandarancid> Registred at the mailing list
[16:15] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: Cool. So you will post about the icons or will I?
[16:15] <darkmatter> andreasn: nope. never submitted it. it's on disc, just need to dig it up and update it
[16:16] <andreasn> darkmatter: was there a bug filed?
[16:16] <Mandarancid> _MMA_: I can post about the icons but where?
[16:17] <darkmatter> andreasn: no. but I was going to file one and attach the patch to the bug :D
[16:17] <darkmatter> *brute force*
[16:17] <_MMA_> Mandarancid: Send a email to: ubuntu-art@lists.ubuntu.com
[16:18] <Mandarancid> _MMA_: I'll send a preview of the mail to you..
[16:19] <_MMA_> Ok. :)
[16:20] <Mandarancid> Now i go to work bye..
[16:21] <darkmatter> andreasn: but I really need to work on that some more, it really made nautilus play nice with themes and not look.. hmm.. foreign
[16:21] <darkmatter> thanks you for reminding me :)
[16:21] <andreasn> darkmatter: cool
[16:21] <andreasn> darkmatter: yeah, it would be really nice if that was fixed
[16:22] <darkmatter> andreasn: I wouldnt mind fixing up the sidebar selector as well, maybe like the mockups for the sidebar I plyed around with after I did that patch
[16:22] <darkmatter> *played
[16:23] <andreasn> darkmatter: are those mockups online?
[16:24] <darkmatter> andreasn: I think they still are. I had to take some stuff off flickr (free account, reached the max) :/ if not I know where they are and can repost them
[16:24] <darkmatter> one sec. I'll chack my gallery
[16:24] <darkmatter> *check
[16:26] <darkmatter> andreasn: nope :/
[16:26] <andreasn> :(
[16:28] <darkmatter> heh. found a pic of another hack I never finished http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=204715612&size=o
[16:29] <darkmatter> http://www.flickr.com/photos/92826085@N00/184627263/ <--- was going to look like that next
[16:31] <darkmatter> hmmm.. actually. I did add the search text http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=196895997&size=o
[16:33] <TheSheep> darkmatter: you think there should be another button with 'Find Later'?
[16:35] <darkmatter> TheSheep: *two* button. you forgot 'Find Yesterday' . LOL. it wasnt my design anyway. was cloning the old NLD!) slab mockup as a favor to som people
[16:35] <darkmatter> *NLD10
[16:35] <darkmatter> *some
[16:35] <darkmatter> bah. whatever. bloody typos
[16:39] <darkmatter> TheSheep: they had wanted something like http://www.flickr.com/photos/gamehack/70004029/in/set-1506658/ and http://jimmac.musichall.cz/images/guimockups/desktop/menu_open.png ,so I caved because I couldn't stand the whining
[17:03] <thorwil> hi!
[17:03] <thorwil> how can i make screenshots of the gdm screen?
[17:03] <Cimi> using xnest
[17:04] <Cimi> is probably the faster ides
[17:04] <Cimi> *idea
[17:04] <thorwil> or where can i find shots of the gutsy gdm?
[17:06] <thorwil> hmm. what options should i feed to Xnest?
[17:09] <TheSheep> thorwil: try Xnest :1
[17:10] <thorwil> a window! checkered background and nothing else, though :)
[17:10] <TheSheep> thorwil: that's your nested X session
[17:10] <thorwil> same for:  Xnest -query localhost :1
[17:14] <thorwil> gdmXnestchooser sounds like it could be the right thing
[17:15] <thorwil> but it fails with: indirect XDMCP is not enabled
[17:17] <TheSheep> thorwil: try 'Xnest :1 -ac' and then 'xterm -display :1'
[17:18] <thorwil> TheSheep: works as expected
[17:19] <TheSheep> thorwil: now you can maybe try starting the chooser in there...
[17:19] <thorwil> did, failed
[17:19] <TheSheep> thorwil: another option would be to just run a livecd in qemu or something
[17:19] <TheSheep> thorwil: or in vmware
[17:20] <thorwil> i think i just need to figure out how to allow XDMCP
[17:20] <TheSheep> -indirect host-name    contact named host for indirect XDMCP
[17:21] <troy_s> thorwil: Add the xnest package and you should get a thing in tools that allows for 'nested window' which is gdmxnest or something.
[17:21] <TheSheep> thorwil: you enable it in login window settings I think
[17:22] <troy_s> thorwil: gdmxnest is it...
[17:22] <troy_s> TheSheep: When I looked into it, aside from the super easy menu thing (which calls gdmxnest plus some vars), the cli version of gdmxnest was the easiest route.
[17:23] <thorwil> troy_s: there's no menu item
[17:23] <troy_s> thorwil: Grr... cant' remember what package sticks that in.  It should read 'Nested Logon in a New Window'
[17:23] <troy_s> thorwil: At any rate, gdmxnest is the underlying mechanism.
[17:24] <TheSheep> troy_s: I already don't like how awn works
[17:24] <TheSheep> troy_s: I'll keep it for some more time and see if I can convert
[17:25] <troy_s> TheSheep: What portion of it don't you like?
[17:25] <troy_s> TheSheep: Niel and mal are very very responsive.
[17:25] <troy_s> TheSheep: It is a step in the right direction -- you should stick with it and help it evolve.
[17:26] <TheSheep> troy_s: I can't have more than one terminal window without adding a zillion terminal launchers
[17:26] <TheSheep> troy_s: and anything that has 'launch in terminal' set will appear as another terminal
[17:26] <troy_s> TheSheep: ???  Have you tried dragging them from a Gnome menu / panel?
[17:27] <troy_s> TheSheep: Oh you mean duplicating the windows...
[17:27] <TheSheep> troy_s: 1. don't have gnome, 2. menu applet won't work with desktop-agnostic, 3. I want to have One launcher to start as many terminals as I need
[17:27] <troy_s> TheSheep: Erm... I suppose that is a higher level issue.  The terminals these days support tabbed windows.
[17:28] <troy_s> TheSheep: The main issue is whether or not the 'future' of terminals will go fully tabbed (as with gnome-terminal and others) or multi-termed.
[17:28] <TheSheep> troy_s: I'm used to spatial desktop, I like to have multiple windows all over my workspace
[17:28] <troy_s> TheSheep: And if you want that -- all you have to do is ask malept to put a hotkey in to launch a new instance.  For example, ctrl-click will add a new instance.
[17:28] <troy_s> TheSheep: I bet he would add it in about two minutes.
[17:28] <troy_s> TheSheep: I don't expect it to be a difficult addition.
[17:28] <TheSheep> troy_s: the 'one maximised window at a time' Microsoft way is not very good
[17:29] <troy_s> TheSheep: Tabbed != Microsoft.
[17:29] <troy_s> TheSheep: Ask malept.
[17:29] <troy_s> TheSheep: He would probably add it.
[17:29] <TheSheep> troy_s: I can't see what could be added to amend that
[17:30] <troy_s> TheSheep: Uh... it is a simple change.  Instead of traversing the open windows, launch a new instance.
[17:30] <troy_s> TheSheep: AWN merely needs to change the launch behave.
[17:31] <TheSheep> troy_s: ah, but wouldn't it break the whole philosophy of the dock?
[17:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: No.
[17:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: Try using AWN for example with another launcher.
[17:31] <TheSheep> troy_s: I would end with a bunch of identical icons then...
[17:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: It works flawlessly -- multiple icons for the same app.
[17:31] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yep
[17:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: Although theoretically I imagine that if you asked
[17:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: It would probably end up in a stack.
[17:32] <TheSheep> even worse
[17:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: Then multiple icons.
[17:32] <troy_s> TheSheep: You are being contrary you wiener.
[17:32] <troy_s> ;)
[17:33] <TheSheep> troy_s: it worked fine with the old panel
[17:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: That is a tracker, and either it tracks multiple icons or it puts them into a stack.  There isn't an option.  It is better than the taskbar and figuring out how to track multiples is well... open to interpretation.
[17:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: The old panel stacks them right? ;)
[17:33] <TheSheep> troy_s: no
[17:33] <TheSheep> troy_s: the old panel doesn't merge icons and launchers
[17:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: Just a different graphical representation of the stack -- stack on the task menu or stack graphically as per OSX or stack as AWN does it (the slider)
[17:33] <troy_s> TheSheep: Then you end up with multiple icons.
[17:34] <TheSheep> troy_s: no, because I don't have icons for running programs
[17:34] <troy_s> TheSheep: That is the default behave of AWN.  As I said, get malept to add a hotkey for a different process launch.
[17:34] <TheSheep> troy_s: http://atos.wmid.amu.edu.pl/~sheep/shot.png
[17:34] <troy_s> TheSheep: What do you have?
[17:34] <TheSheep> troy_s: pager
[17:35] <troy_s> TheSheep: I don't get wtf you want then.
[17:35] <troy_s> TheSheep: Either you track the apps or you don't.
[17:35] <troy_s> TheSheep: IF you track them, then you have either individual instances or stacks (task/stack versions)
[17:35] <TheSheep> troy_s: I don't know what I want, I don't know the solution, I only know the problem
[17:35] <troy_s> TheSheep: If you don't, then use a ring switcher.
[17:35] <troy_s> TheSheep: WHAT DO YOU WANT THEN!?!?!?!
[17:36] <TheSheep> I guess awn is not for me
[17:38] <TheSheep> troy_s: actually it would work fine for most applications, just not for the terminal and file manager
[17:38] <TheSheep> troy_s: two most needed applications
[17:42] <troy_s> TheSheep: what do you want then?
[17:43] <darkmatter> troy_s: http://jimmac.musichall.cz/guimockups.php?mockup=switcher <-- *that's* a ring switcher (yes its ugly and yes its just a mockup) but its muck better than the current crap in fusion
[17:43] <darkmatter> *much
[17:43] <nothlit> you can start more than one app from awn launchers, its middle click or something
[17:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: We are working on a ring switcher
[17:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: tonic and i
[17:44] <troy_s> very much like awn, but more 'flow from one ring hover to the next'
[17:44] <darkmatter> troy_s: mouse capable?
[17:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: of course
[17:44] <darkmatter> good
[17:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: a key component is to make the mouse wheel spin like a wheel of fortune
[17:44] <troy_s> darkmatter: make it 'feel ' right.
[17:45] <troy_s> darkmatter: that is one godawful looking ring switcher.
[17:45] <TheSheep> nothlit: hmm... ok, then it must be another bug in my copy :) Error: Failed to execute child process "xfce4-terminal" (Bad address)
[17:45] <darkmatter> this daft sort from a to z from the keyboard is senseless
[17:45] <darkmatter> troy_s: yeah. its ugly but the concept is solid.
[17:45] <thorwil> thanks Cimi, TheSheep, troy_s!
[17:46] <thorwil> through a bug report i learned the right command: gdmflexiserver -d --xnest
[17:46] <nothlit> they have it all set up for you
[17:46] <nothlit> its just hidden in the menu, thorwil
[17:46] <nothlit> if you edit the menu you can reveal a lot of hidden shortcuts
[17:47] <TheSheep> troy_s: I think I have an idea for the 'row of identical icons' problem
[17:47] <thorwil> i only know it's not in the menu as it comes
[17:47] <kwwii> dang, I had a mockup for a switcher almost exactkly like jimmacs - freaky
[17:47] <nothlit> you just have to click the checkbox lol
[17:48] <kwwii> I also took that same idea for an interface for a file manager
[17:48] <troy_s> thorwil: THATS IT!
[17:49] <troy_s> thorwil: couldn't remember it.
[17:49] <troy_s> darkmatter: The absolutely best ring interface thus far was the one for neverwinter nights
[17:50] <troy_s> darkmatter: although it would probably be better if it used scaling to keep the 'circle' more of a slight ellipse and fade the bits into the distance
[17:50] <troy_s> darkmatter: that one is something out of a 1970s submarine
[17:50] <troy_s> darkmatter: just bloody awful.
[18:00] <darkmatter> troy_s: themewise I agree
[18:01] <Cimi> andreasn, aren't too "thin" ? http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/9827/schermatack4.png
[18:02] <Cimi> comparison http://www.cimitan.com/blog/wp-content/new-gummy-tabs-2.png
[18:02] <andreasn> looks good, schermatack4 that is
[18:03] <Cimi> kk
[18:03] <Cimi> so you still prefer the thinner ones..
[18:04] <andreasn> I guess so, yes
[18:04] <Cimi> andreasn, you're in the 99% of goys
[18:04] <Cimi> *guys
[18:04] <Cimi> I'm probably the one who prefer the fat ones :D
[18:05] <andreasn> make it a compile flag option ;)
[18:05] <Cimi> lol
[18:05]  * TheSheep wonders how is one supposed to drag a window to next workspace with a graphical tablet...
[18:09] <Cimi> andreasn, I think we should propose a wallpaper contest as oxygen guys
[18:09] <kwwii> man, those oxygen guys are sooo smart
[18:09] <Cimi> they got amazing wallz
[18:09] <Cimi> kwwii, only smart
[18:09] <andreasn> Cimi: we should just steal the right off
[18:09]  * andreasn runs
[18:09] <Cimi> not talented artists :D
[18:09] <Cimi> for me the best thing in oxygen are the wallz
[18:10] <andreasn> but yeah, the wallpaper selection was quite nice, I liked kwwii's field
[18:10] <troy_s> andreasn: the most well composed is probably the house
[18:10] <kwwii> I am sure that we could do a contest and get quite a few people - the results of the oxygen contest amazed me
[18:11] <kwwii> it turned out to be more work sorting through them than we expected
[18:14] <Cimi> andreasn, claim for a contest
[18:14] <troy_s> that abstract blue one at the end is most nasty composition, but a very innovative technique using the line clone.
[18:29] <darkmatter> troy_s: you know whats really innovative? a ring switcher that accepts mouse clicks as well as the wheel (click an app in the switcher to bring it fronside)
[18:29] <darkmatter> hint hint ;)
[18:29] <troy_s> darkmatter: Yeah.  Done and done.
[18:29] <troy_s> darkmatter: although mouse interface is a little tricky as you need to figure out how to have it spin.  my gut is telling me to have two hot-zones for right and left.
[18:29] <darkmatter> good boy. if it doesn't work on my box I'll kill ya (thats what she said)
[18:30] <troy_s> darkmatter: we are considering using sdl for full agnostic
[18:30] <darkmatter> nice
[18:37]  * kwwii picks up his kid from basketball...bbl
[18:40] <darkmatter> troy_s: I'm working an a wormhole/spacefold (because stacks are taken and I cant think of a better name atm) for the filer/desktop icons (see my "folders suck" rant above) that lets you preview and navigate a collection. because the fastest way from a-z is not a straight line. its by punching a hole in space
[18:41] <troy_s> darkmatter: 3d ring yes?
[18:41] <darkmatter> sorta
[18:41] <troy_s> darkmatter: the basis of the interface thing tonic and i are working on is a 3d ring essentially.
[18:42] <darkmatter> :)
[18:42] <troy_s> darkmatter: the only element is transitioning from one selection to another.
[18:42] <troy_s> darkmatter: i was hoping for some sort of 'backup / up/undo' that cascades out of the original ringlet.
[18:43] <darkmatter> yeah. seems the most logical
[18:44] <troy_s> quite doable however.
[18:45] <darkmatter> troy_s: also needs to be visual distinguished from the rest of the ui. I was thinking something similar in some respects to the OSX HUD's (dark, translucent background) to identify it as *not just another ui element*
[18:46] <darkmatter> in regards to my wormhole
[18:46] <troy_s> hrm...
[18:46] <troy_s> yeah.. perhaps a thin layer
[18:46] <troy_s> darkmatter: have you tried awn lately?
[18:46] <darkmatter> troy_s: yup. latest bzr installed in suse
[18:46] <troy_s> darkmatter: it is pretty darn impressive
[18:46] <darkmatter> I love the #D spin
[18:47] <darkmatter> 3D*
[18:47] <troy_s> darkmatter: hate.  flat guy here.
[18:47] <troy_s> lol
[18:47] <troy_s> reflections are a tad uh... dated
[18:47] <troy_s> but on the whole a huge +1
[18:47] <troy_s> glossy crappy shiny crap everywhere
[18:47] <darkmatter> lol. troy_sI dont use it. I just love how smoothly its implemented
[18:47] <troy_s> darkmatter: have you tried awn-extras?
[18:48] <troy_s> darkmatter: the extras are where the value is.
[18:48] <troy_s> darkmatter: as in replacing that nasty upstream gnome stuffs.
[18:48] <darkmatter> very smooth drawing, right down to the shadows. almost like the icons were done that way originally
[18:48] <troy_s> darkmatter: namely the awn-mainmenu, the folder browser, etc.
[18:48] <darkmatter> troy_s: yeah. compiled them
[18:48] <troy_s> its very good.
[18:49] <darkmatter> troy_s: its almost a full panel replacement (well, technically its already there)
[18:50] <troy_s> darkmatter: yes.  the system tray (lack of standards and gtk legacy) is the weak link
[18:50] <darkmatter> yup
[18:50] <troy_s> darkmatter: standalone tray works wonderfully though.  unfortunately it has pretty complicated code to accommodate the blasted 'oh and this case oh and this case"
[18:51] <darkmatter> lol
[18:53] <darkmatter> troy_s: screw a tray, unified task manager (I'm hungry! oh look its a tray icon, oh look its a modal dialog! *swallow*)
[19:00] <darkmatter> well. not all modals. just the modals that exist where they shouldn't (and yes. theres a few of those kicking around)
[19:14] <titanix88> hi people
[19:15] <titanix88> hi kwiii
[19:16] <titanix88> anyone here? :o
[19:16] <Cimi> hi titanix88
[19:17] <titanix88> i heard ubuntu is going to have major artwork reconstruction.:)
[19:17] <titanix88> i heard ubuntu is going to have major artwork reconstruction.:)
[19:19] <titanix88> hi nothlit:)
[19:20] <titanix88> someone in the mailing list said icons should be colourful. i say the same.
[19:21] <troy_s> titanix88: I don't think you would find anyone who disagrees.  But 'icons' is too big a term.
[19:21] <titanix88> i mean file manager icons.
[19:21] <troy_s> titanix88: But of course, colourful is realtive (how many colours?  How much differing value?  How much differing hue?)
[19:23] <titanix88> we can use dynamic contrast to differtiate side by side folder icons.
[19:24] <troy_s> titanix88: Before you make a suggestion, I would encourage you to figure out if the tech exists as already coded.
[19:24] <troy_s> titanix88: Then perhaps figure out what audience it would work for.
[19:25] <troy_s> titanix88: And then figure out if it works with the aesthetic 'outline' that kwwii will lay out.
[19:25] <titanix88> well like lists in amarok.
[19:27] <titanix88> aesthetik outline? i dont get it...:o
[19:27] <titanix88> aesthetik outline? i dont get it...:o
[19:27] <troy_s> titanix88: Aesthetic.
[19:27] <troy_s> titanix88: Aesthetic == the realm of appearance.
[19:27] <titanix88> ok ok aesthetic...
[19:28] <titanix88> the realm of appearance?its getting more complicated...:s
[19:29] <titanix88> what do u think abt new proposed theme?
[19:29] <titanix88> what do u think abt new proposed theme?
[19:30] <troy_s> titanix88: Well considering there isn't one, there isn't a thought.
[19:30] <troy_s> titanix88: There haven't been any official mocks, nor direction yet.  kwwii still needs to present it and get some idea that it will 'happen'.
[19:31] <titanix88> i saw one from digg...:o
[19:31] <troy_s> titanix88: and that is more about politicking than work at this point.  Make no mistake, _that_ task is far more difficult.
[19:31] <troy_s> titanix88: Was that official?
[19:31] <troy_s> titanix88: Did anyone do their homework on that?
[19:31] <troy_s> titanix88: ;)
[19:33] <titanix88> i wish to register myself as a politician. where can i do that?;)
[19:34] <troy_s> titanix88: To get the default design changed?
[19:34] <troy_s> titanix88: Digg's post was rather uh -- ill-informed.
[19:35] <titanix88> yeah maybe. just kidding. i submitted a wallpaper which got least attention last time.:((
[19:35] <troy_s> titanix88: Attention is not really important.
[19:36] <titanix88> than what do u make art for?o_O
[19:36] <troy_s> titanix88:  There have been a good number of amazing works created through the ages that didn't get 'attention' until the individual was dead.  ;)
[19:37] <troy_s> titanix88: Creating something for attention is perhaps the worst possible starting vantage.
[19:37] <troy_s> titanix88: That is nothing more than the teenager shouting at the back of the class for attention.  It amounts to nothing.
[19:37] <titanix88> sorry, but my artwork wont be one of those for sure(believe me)!;)
[19:38] <titanix88> btw i am 19
[19:38] <troy_s> titanix88: Sure, but if you don't get bothered by a lack of attention you just might keep trying to learn the craft -- and after a while who knows what could happen.
[19:39] <troy_s> titanix88: Hell... the creative person who stops learning or loses the sense of 'I know nothing' might as well be dead.
[19:40] <titanix88> yeah yeah i got over it the other way. i understood art is not for me. i spend my time programming nowadays.
[19:41] <troy_s> titanix88: You are aware that it wasn't that long ago that 'artists' practised music, science, illustration, and a plethora of other 'creative' things.
[19:41] <titanix88> thats a good motivation.what do u think?:)
[19:41] <troy_s> titanix88: It is the more modern era that has wanted to 'classifiy' and restrict personalities.
[19:42] <troy_s> titanix88: Any decent book on the Renaissance might reveal a few personalities of interest.  Da Vinci wasn't the anomaly, he was the norm during that era.
[19:42] <TheSheep> wasn't actually 'aesthetic' related to 'producing things'?
[19:43] <titanix88> its because now science or art is not that primitive as they were than.
[19:43] <troy_s> titanix88: Wow.  That is quite a statement.
[19:43] <TheSheep> primitive, heh
[19:44] <troy_s> titanix88: I would encourage you to research that a little further and see how you feel about that statement.  It might be a little... optically questionable.  ;)
[19:46] <titanix88> i mean u can learn a lot, but cant master all of them.
[19:47] <titanix88> do u suggest gramartical error?
[19:47] <titanix88> i know i am poor in english.
[19:49] <troy_s> titanix88: No.  I was just suggesting that the modern want to 'classify' people and that old fallacy of 'jack of all trades master of none' is rather not the case when looking at the Renaissance.
[19:50] <troy_s> titanix88: It is some strange modern thing.  Perhaps one day soon it will change.
[19:50] <troy_s> titanix88: During the Renaissance, there were more than a few people who mastered art and science in certain capacities, and in fact, their success might have been rooted in that approach.
[19:51] <titanix88> hmm.
[19:51] <titanix88> hmm.
[19:53] <thorwil> even renaissance people have only 24 hours a day ;)
[19:55] <thorwil> troy_s: what's the english term for people who support an artist, paying him to do his thing?
[19:56] <thorwil> ah, a patron. seems quite important if you need all day to master several arts
[20:02] <thorwil> hmm. would i like Qemu Launcher or Qemulator?
[20:03] <titanix88> thorwil u got the point.
[20:05] <thorwil> why, thank you, i always wanted to have a point :)
[20:18] <troy_s> thorwil: Most of those folks who got paid to do their multi-disciplined work were getting paid for patronage _after_ they achieved their ability.
[20:22] <TheSheep> troy_s: Michealangelo comes to mind...
[20:25] <thorwil> maybe today's education system takes away too much time that could be spent with learning and practicing otherwise ;)
[20:30] <TheSheep> thorwil: it's the 'factory' approach that is designed to 'produce' specialists
[20:31] <TheSheep> thorwil: and schools are 'storage for children when parents work' more than anything
[20:31] <thorwil> jepp
[20:32] <troy_s> thorwil: Our little FOSS crowd is an interesting mix.
[20:32] <TheSheep> thorwil: there are practically no apprentices today
[20:33] <troy_s> thorwil: Mixed disciplines (albeit not enough artists/musicians)
[20:33] <TheSheep> troy_s: bah, practically every programmer I know plays some instrument
[20:34] <troy_s> TheSheep: That's good.  Mixed disciplines still.  It is an interesting thing.  There could be a good case to be made that it is some sort of segue into a neo-Renaissance.
[20:36] <TheSheep> troy_s: actually, from all of my friends, the least 'universal' are the teachers :)
[20:36] <troy_s> lol
[20:36] <thorwil> hmm. there's a number of people who apply DIY to several fields. coding being just one. but, hey, i already or still think of doing-it-yourself as the special case
[20:37] <TheSheep> thorwil: no, DIY is the norm, or at least I think it should be
[20:38] <troy_s> thorwil: DIY only really worked when the trained designers got ahold of it ;)
[20:38] <TheSheep> thorwil: there was that essay by Guido Van Rossum taht said something like "every computer user should program. you don't use your computer if you can't program it"
[20:38] <troy_s> thorwil: (If we look to movements -- DIY was very effective.)
[20:38] <TheSheep> troy_s: have you read 'Themepunks' by Cory Doctorow?
[20:39] <troy_s> TheSheep: No, but I had a brief chat with him via email.
[20:39] <troy_s> TheSheep: He is quite a clever bugger.
[20:39] <TheSheep> troy_s: the story is kind of idealistic, but I know a lot of people who actually work to make it happen
[20:40] <TheSheep> troy_s: small-scale production based on open projects and reuse of existing things
[20:41] <troy_s> TheSheep: Yes.  We are most certainly in an era that is roughly one part "Dark Ages" mixed with a good part "Renaissance" -- it is an exciting time to be involved with FOSS.
[20:41] <troy_s> TheSheep: We will most certainly look back in 100 years and wonder how anything else was even an option.
[20:42] <TheSheep> troy_s: "may you live in interesting times" <-- an old chinese curse